Talk:Stephen Paddock/Archive 1

Before recreating it here, please help improving Draft:Stephen Paddock and see WP:BIO1E, Talk:2017 Las Vegas Strip shooting#Article on the (suspected) perpetrator. --85.179.83.215 (talk) 18:40, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Re: Draft:Stephen Paddock. He was not born in Mesquite, Nevada. Where did you get that from I ask? At least, this entry is properly referenced and properly formatted with relevant and well balanced background throughout, as oppose to this and this tryout. Please expand the article if you can, with good viable info. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 19:52, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

This could be an AfD, but I think it would be more appropriate to keep. One of reasons: there is no any obvious motive for the shooting, hence the information about the person is important. For example, here , his brother said “Not an avid gun guy at all...where the hell did he get automatic weapons? He has no military background,”. That's important given that ISIS claimed Stephen Paddock was their man (possibly hired to have the money for gambling). My very best wishes (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

It seems odd so little is known about his personal life.207.237.87.163 (talk) 22:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)BG

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add {{Pp-semi}} template.

--186.84.65.243 (talk) 20:05, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Done SparklingPessimist ^{Scream at me!} 20:30, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Resolved

Why does this guy have his own wikipedia page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.31.243 (talk) 07:55, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

• Read discussion here: . We don't include articles on subjects solely because we approve of them morally. A subject must meet WP:NOTABILITY guidelines. 2601:188:180:11F0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 12:24, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

He owned he owned an apartment complex in the Dallas suburb of Mesquite, which he sold in 2012.[15] Relatives said Paddock was worth at least $2 million dollars.[16]

just a typo... please deleted one of the "He owned" and everything is fine.

The article states: As of 5 October 2017, his motive is unknown. Please change this to American date form, not British. Thanks. 32.209.55.38 (talk) 05:08, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

•  Done John from Idegon (talk) 05:44, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

That's it . Great job . I totally agree with every decision .96.233.52.166 (talk) 05:48, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

The photo on the page indicates it was likely taken the day before the attack, but I haven't seen this indicated anywhere and it is impossible since his girlfriend Marilou Whatever is in the photo with him and she was overseas in the days before the attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheesy poof (talk • contribs) 04:52, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks for noticing. This is not the original caption, see also below captions online.

1. Stephen Paddock pictured in a photo on Marilou Danley's Facebook page.
2. Image: Twitter
3. Facebook.
4. Twitter
5. Credit: Reuters.
6. Image: Twitter.
7. Credit: AFP.
8. Twitter.
9. AFP.

The above sites are likely derivatives of the real source, which is facebook. Poeticbent talk 06:30, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Page needs an edit. Under Personality towards the end it states "and studied gun laws to know his rights to own weapons."[17] Read the source, there is no indication from Stephen Paddock’s girlfriend’s sister that Stephen Paddock had any education pertaining to gun laws, formal or otherwise, nor any evidence that she would hold such knowledge of him to begin with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.81.124 (talk • contribs) 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Note: To whom it may concern, the "talk" page, by definition, is to "provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or WikiProject." Editorial discussion most certainly falls under this category. "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject." "Personal views" include criticism directed towards individuals or their activities. Don't be dishonest with your edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.81.124 (talk) 13:20, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

The Guardian source may not say it in those exact words, but the person interviewed certainly expressed something similar - "Paddock’s grasp of the detail seemed superior to most defenders of the second amendment," and "I think it’d be fair to say [Paddock] indicated to me that he certainly knew more than most." So the point is still valid, even if it needs a rewrite. -- Fuzheado | Talk 14:55, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

First, I removed an instance of the word "currently". Most experienced editors realize that word is never appropriate in an undated encyclopedia article as there is no frame of reference as to when currently is for the reader.

Second, I removed the street address of his house in Mesquite. I cannot fathom what encyclopedic purpose including it serves, and memorializing it here will cause real world financial harm to whatever one of his totally uninvolved relatives is stuck with the unenviable task of clearing his estate. John from Idegon (talk) 01:14, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

This edit request to Stephen Paddock has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Stephen Craig Paddock (April 9, 1953 – October 1, 2017)[1] was an American mass murderer,

Please add Stephen Paddock is a domestic terrorist next mass murderer because he did cause the biggest mass shooting in US history and terrorized upwards of 593 casualties among many Americans CLoner58 (talk) 03:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. No reliable source calls him a terrorist. WWGB (talk) 03:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. Terrorism is "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.". As yet, no evidence has been released suggesting any motive. (Garryharvey)

 Not done. There were not 593 casualties.

This information - "The week before the massacre, Paddock wired US$100,000 to an account in the Philippines, the country where his live-in girlfriend had traveled.[51] Police, relatives, and neighbors described him as a high-stakes gambler, and police said he had made casino transactions in the tens of thousands of dollars prior to the shooting, but did not specify whether these transactions were losses or wins. Court records show he married and divorced twice. He had no children. His younger brother and others who were in close contact with him described him as an ordinary man with no apparent religious or political affiliation." is in the article about the shooting but not this article. Since it applies to the man directly it should probably be in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:ED02:A200:564:AF28:965C:9795 (talk) 07:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

 Not done Except for minor formatting issues, edit requests without sources will not be done. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 21:41, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Re: his occupation on the fact sheet to the right. He seemed to have worked more as an internal auditor than as an accountant. Yet only "accoutant" is mentioned. I'd suggest either add "auditor" to the list or replace "accountant" with it. 105.98.12.193 (talk) 11:26, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Auditors (either internal or from an outside CPA firm) are accountants. It's simply one function of being an accountant (which I am).HistoryBuff14 (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Agree with history buff. Auditing is a subfield of accounting, but it also has other meanings related to education and Scientology. Accountant is unambiguous. John from Idegon (talk) 21:47, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I remove this. I would also remove the other heresay by the anonymous boyfriend of sister. --Malerooster (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree that both statements are hearsay and have no please in the article. I removed the anonymous boyfriend quote earlier this morning and was reverted.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlthewave (talk • contribs) 23:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

• This is not, what "hearsay" means! There's a source attached to it indicating that that was the way he used to be with her (quote from article): "Workers at the Starbucks inside Mesquite's Virgin River Casino remembered Paddock frequently berating his girlfriend. “It happened a lot,” supervisor Esperanza Mendoza told the Los Angeles Times, and added: “He would glare down at her and say 'I’m paying for your drink, just like I’m paying for you.' — Can you explain why this characterization of Paddock bothers you? Poeticbent talk 23:36, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

It's inappropriate. A conversation overheard by a barista is irrelevant to an encyclopedia article. If the article were to assert a general opinion that he is rude as part of a personailty profile that fit a pattern, and that quote was used as an example, it would be different. Otherwise, how do we know he wasn't being rude for good reason, or the Barista misheard, or had a chip on his soldier because he didn't tip etc.. it's too random and fleeting in a concise full-life biography. -- GreenC 23:52, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, and not incidentally, this was asked of her after the event in Paradise. Do you really think she'd be looking to give an honest description, or would she be caught up in demonizing the dude? If we're looking to write a good article about this dude, this is what we need to avoid. It's natural when someone commits a henious act to attempt to demonize them. It's one of the ways people cope. No one wants to accept that someone they've met could be capable of doing what Paddock did. If you demonize them, it provides a psychological distance and allows you to feel safe. Besides, do you think anyone will give a shit what an anonymous barista said 10 years from now? John from Idegon (talk) 00:07, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

• Fair enough. Poeticbent talk 04:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I removed the word murder from the lead, as murder requires a conviction, even if that were to take place, its politically motivated word. The word "kill" or "killings" is a neutral word that describes exactly what happened without any political bias to a particular jurisdiction. --Eng. M.Bandara-Talk 01:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

The term murder is absolutely non-political in this situation. If Paddock were alive, I would support your position as the matter would be sub-judice. In this instance, the evidence and news coverage mean that use of the term murder is inevitable. To avoid use of the word murder concerning the worst mass murderer in modern US history makes Wikipedia look tame and weak. WWGB (talk) 01:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@WWGB: clearly you have a bias in this, as you just called it the "worst" mass murderer, demonstrates that you hold a position on this topic that you view this incident as "bad". I would compromise in saying that that "xyz news channel referred to the incident as a mass murder" --Eng. M.Bandara-Talk 03:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Oh please! Bi-arse? Google "Paddock worst mass murderer" and you will find many reliable sources using the term. Get over it! WWGB (talk) 04:31, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Julio Gonzalez was convicted of arson and murder of 87 people in the fire at Happy Land social club on 25 Mar 1990. Paddock's action was more intentional murder, very meticulously planned with greater collateral damage. Not the worst mass murder of modern times by an individual. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 21:19, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Stephen Paddock had multiple firearms and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. It was premeditated. To not call it murder is incorrect and immature. Wiki is for encyclopedic purposes, it should not be restricted for the purpose of being inoffensive. Words can be offensive, that's why we tell children "sticks and stones". Don't be dishonest with your edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.81.124 (talk) 13:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I recently added the following content, which was cited to CNN: "Paddock reportedly took cruises to foreign countries in Europe and the Middle East, including Spain, Italy, Greece, Jordan, and the United Arab Emirates". The content was removed by WWGB with the comment, "how has that got anything to do with the shooting?" I find that to be an utterly disingenuous comment, for several reasons. In the first place, the name of this article is Stephen Paddock, not 2017 Las Vegas Strip shooting. It is thus false that content has to be "about the shooting" in order for it to be included here, as the article is about Paddock, not about the shooting. In the second place, please. The information is obviously relevant to Paddock's behavior in the sense that it suggests leads that investigators are going to have to pursue. Since some have alleged that Paddock converted to Islam, it is quite obviously relevant that Paddock did in fact visit Muslim countries before the shooting. Removing this very relevant information amounts to political censorship. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

If anyone actually needs an explanation of why the information about Paddock's foreign travel is relevant, here it is spelled out on CNN: "Investigators have taken note of the foreign travel as they attempt to piece together a profile of the mass killer and a timeline of his activities leading up to the attack that left at least 58 people dead and nearly 500 injured." If reliable sources say it's relevant, based on what those actually investigating the case believe, it is not reasonable for editors who dislike this information to loftily proclaim it irrelevant. We are meant to base article content on reliable sources, remember? WP:RS: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered". Meaning that you don't just remove crucial facts from articles because you personally decide, for some reason, "Oh, that isn't relevant" - which is a made-up excuse to get rid of anything you don't like when sources spell out the relevance explicitly. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:05, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

It has been reported by other sources besides CNN, see, eg, the Washington Examiner story here, the Weekend Australian story here, and the Denver channel story here. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:30, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

@FreeKnowledgeCreator: Thanks for expanding the content beyond "he took a vacation". If that had been there originally, I would not have raised an objection. Regards, WWGB (talk) 10:58, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Since we don't have a motive, media and law enforcement are going after every detail they can find. We're not here to help solve the crime, so we don't need to publish all of these leads. I'm curious why you would add just the cruises and not, say, suspicious hotel bookings near music festivals. –dlthewave ☎ 14:14, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

• We ought to be adding information about Paddock that has been confirmed as factual based on reliable, published sources. It is not an easy task, considering the incredible amount of speculation. There's nothing yet in this article about his collection of guns. Paddock had a gun room in his house (though Adam Le Fevre, who said that, did not get to actually see the guns). Poeticbent talk 17:30, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stephen-paddock-las-vegas-king-microaggression-eric-brother-shooter-background-life-a7987826.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.87.163 (talk) 22:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

The copy of the birth certificate I am looking at clearly says April 4, with the 4 being drawn differently from the 9 in 1953. If someone explains how to upload that graphic, I will do so. Thanks. Dioxin Freak, not signed in 2604:2000:270E:2100:C957:9848:B48B:6D2B (talk) 21:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

No need. We are not interested in primary sources. John from Idegon (talk) 23:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

The article ends with a strange statement discouraging the idea of a connection with ISIL. Yet when one goes to the citation for that allegation, the citation says, "an expert warns IS may have been involved." Perhaps a different citation should be used and one that observes that (non-aggressive, non-body-bomb) suicide has not been an ISIL way to end an engagement with the "infidel." (PeacePeace (talk) 17:58, 9 October 2017 (UTC)_

Resolved

 – Merger not done as original poster was not aware of previous AfD and merger discussion. Notice removed from 2017 Las Vegas Strip shooting. -- Fuzheado | Talk 18:04, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

This article, Stephen Paddock, should be merged with Las Vegas Strip shooting. The biography of this person does not warrant a separate article as the basis for the article one is the shooting itself. Separate articles should not be created in such cases. This article is very similar to the LA shooting one and overlaps it, which encompasses this as well and this article can be merged into it without any significant issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotitbro (talk • contribs) 14:56, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Looks like both you and I missed the previous discussion about whether to keep this article. But we would have cancelled each other out anyway, because I support keeping this article especially for providing information about Paddock that is not tied to the shooting. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:00, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Nothing significant about this person that needs to be documented separately. As of right now both the articles overlap each other at multiple instances and this one is just a subset of that. Merging both would be good as then additional info can be viewed about this person there and then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotitbro (talk • contribs) 15:06, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

• This is absurd. The proposal is a result of complete lack of background research into a flurry of similar proposals in recent days. There's no place for an uninformed flag in this article. Please go to 2017 Las Vegas Strip shooting and post it there as required by policy. If your flag survives for the next 15 minutes, than come back please. Poeticbent talk 15:33, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

• I agree that we should wait up to a month before talking about a merge or deletion. It just feels like every week we get another comment like this which is frustrating to editors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:47, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

And that is what I am saying we should've waited before creating an article about this person as of right now nothing warrants a separate article for him. Nothing else of significance that isn't already covered by the main article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotitbro (talk • contribs) 15:56, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your concerns but we have already had two discussions regarding the page's deletion which included talks of a merger with no results. You can accept that this is the consensus for now, or you can continue to beat the dead horse which is disruptive. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I understand what you are trying to say. I am still leaving the notice up in case other users want to chime in that haven't seen the deletion discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotitbro (talk • contribs) 17:02, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the merge tag, which was only posted to one of the articles anyways. Two AFDs already in a week, let it rest. -- ferret (talk) 17:30, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Please change Paddock stopped shooting at the crowd at 10:15 p.m. when his attention was diverted by the impending arrival of a hotel security guard. He fired about 200 rounds through the door of his room, wounding the guard.

This is incorrect. The security guard was shot before anybody else was shot.

Source: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-vegas-shooting-20171009-story.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C5E:4E80:11D2:4502:1232:A362:5E0D (talk) 23:33, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Thx. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:47, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

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The mother's name is not listed under 'parents'. Her name is listed as a spouse in this article about his father Benjamin Hoskins Paddock. Her name is Dolores Irene Hudson. 63.144.207.90 (talk) 05:51, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

We only name notable parents. Father is notable because of his criminal record. Mother is not notable. WWGB (talk) 06:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Paddock's girlfriend at the time MaryLou Danly allegedly took a flight out of Vegas. What was the flight number? Before or after the massacre?69.179.105.95 (talk) 16:28, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Please see WP:NOTFORUM. The purpose of this page is to discuss existing content of this article and to propose (with sources) concrete suggestions for improvement to this article. It is not for general inquiries about the subject. Even with sourcing, the area you are discussing is off topic to this article. It isn't about the shooting or about Paddock's girlfriend. John from Idegon (talk) 00:11, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it is fair to discuss such things to explore relevance - Paddock's way of dealing with the woman before the massacre clearly gives some opportunity to explore his character. According to Paddock told Danley he found her a cheap ticket to the Philippines a bit more than two weeks before the massacre. He wired her money when she was there, I think it was a week before. I mean, I'd guess Americans have seen enough of these shootings by now to know the nearest person pretty much always goes to jail one way or another (that doesn't mean they did anything...). There are few lives provably free of a jailable crime if they are looked at really, really, really hard by hostile prosecutors. Wnt (talk) 21:49, 10 October 2017 (UTC)