Talk:Syrian civil war/Archive 45

I have deleted this paragraph, recently added. I think it is written in a very non-neutral and un-encyclopedic way, and it is sourced to a YouTube video. If people think this is worth including in the article, can they edit it better and paste back in:

As of 9 June 2017, the Russian Federation army, working alongside its Syrian ally, had seen relative success in reconciling opposing sides and had procured signed agreements with some 1,571 representatives of the inhabited areas in Syria, where they had agreed to cease from hostilities against the government of Syria under Bashar al-Assad, thereby restoring a semblance of law and order.Russia Insider: Military Briefing (Current Situation) Some 219 groups in Syria who had formerly been suspected of involvement in armed resistance had agreed to the terms of the ceasefire.Russia Insider: Military Briefing (Current Situation)

BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:16, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps we can write:

"In an effort to restore law and order, the Russian Federation army claims to have 'signed agreements with some 1,571 representatives of the inhabited areas in Syria,' where they have agreed to cease all hostilities against the Syrian government. [source] In addition, some 219 groups in Syria who had formerly been suspected of involvement in armed resistance have agreed to the terms of a ceasefire. [source]."

As for the YouTube.com source, it depends on the YouTube. In this case, it interjects no personal bias, but is simply a Russian military briefing. If you have doubts about it being a WP:RS, you can always ask the opinion of an administrator.Davidbena (talk) 15:46, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that looks massively better. I would make it clear who it was that suspected this involvement in armed resistance as well. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:01, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

 Done

• Davidbena, this is an overview article of a protracted conflict. You put some statistics from the 9 June briefing by the Russian defence ministry, whereas the latest on the subject i have only just read on syria.mil.ru is dated 24 June. So what? These "reconciliation agreements" are red herrings: first, it is just not clear what they really mean; but obviously, they are not agreements between opposing sides of the conflict. Read carefully who are the parties to those.Axxxion (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

So, Axxxion, how would you suggest rewording this paragraph so as to comply with your view of noteworthy and up-to-date reporting of this conflict, especially as it pertains to peace efforts? Of course, if the statement should be corrected to make note of the fact that these agreements were made between parties who were not directly involved in armed conflict, you can stress this fact. The first clause, I thought, had accurately made that distinction. BTW: After several trials and errors (re-edits), there is now a consensus to add this important anecdote.Davidbena (talk) 22:41, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

There have been several editors′ reverts of this, which clearly indicates there is no consensus about this passage. As far as I am concerned, my main objection is that the matter is not investigated (journalistaically at least) and unclear: there have to be serious analytical texts to elucidate what these "reconciliation agreements" are in the real world, outside the online texts posted by the Russian Defence ministry. Axxxion (talk) 00:11, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Reverts with given reasons in the "edit summary" that have since been corrected cannot be considered a consensus. As for your view that the information provided by the source is too vague, why would you rule-out looking at online texts posted by the Russian Defence ministry to help you further understand what is meant by "reconciliation agreements"? Since Russia is a key-player in its sphere of influence in Syria, and since the same information that you seek can hardly be had elsewhere, why would you limit your "investigative" source? It makes little sense to me, although I admit that I am no expert. The military briefing by the Russian side seems, in my humble opinion, to bring some balance to this article.Davidbena (talk) 00:31, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

User:Axxxion, this is for your information. Upon reexamining the video with the Russian military briefing and its mention of the "Russian Center for reconciliation of opposing sides," I was able to do a Google search on this organization, and it just so happens that there is an article about its operations in Syria, on the Russian-language Wikipedia. See Center for Reconciliation of the warring parties in Syria. The page also provides you with an automatic translation, if you cannot read Russian. There, it says explicitly: "According Konashenkova, the main goals of the center is to actively promote the negotiation process of reconciliation between the legitimate Syrian government and the rebel opposition. Also, one of the key objectives of the Center is to organize the delivery of humanitarian assistance to civilians... One of the main problems - the conclusion of agreements on joining illegal armed groups and individual settlements to the cessation of hostilities in Syria. At the beginning of 2017 the number of localities that have joined the reconciliation process was more than 1,100." In the video it notes that, as of 9 June 2017, "Reconciliation agreements [were] signed with representatives of 1571 human settlements"---Davidbena (talk) 01:26, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with Axxxion. I think the notability for inclusion in the main article on the war is not clear, especially as there are more specific articles on e.g. peace efforts, and relying on primary sources in this way might be original research. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I respect your opinion. Has our fellow co-editor, Axxxion, changed his mind after my brief explanation? I realize that this page is only a general overview of the Syrian Civil war, but then again, there is a section entitled "Peace efforts," and two lines mentioning the Russian efforts in this regard might not hurt the article. What do you think? Using a Primary source presents no difficulty, as per WP:Primary sources.Davidbena (talk) 15:53, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Definitely I have not, as far as this article is concerned, for that matter. The Russ defence ministry updates this info on a daily basis: latest as of now: . The very fact that such centre exists is notable, in my view, and probably there has to be a section about it in Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War: there is probably a mention of it in there, but i cannot see for now. We have to keep this article lean, otherwise it will spin out of control.Axxxion (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

This may be an apt place for this type of info: Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil War#Russian peace initiatives and efforts.Axxxion (talk) 20:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Axxxion, would you agree that we seek a larger consensus, say, by referring this question to WP:RfC?---Davidbena (talk) 21:20, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello, I would just like to add some counterarguments, like how there are doubts among the informed about calling the war a genuine civil war, being that it's all foreign intervention that started and continued it to this point.

John Kerry mentioned on Capitol Hill years ago that Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf allies offered to pay the US to help them with a war in Syria.

Two Turkish MPs confirmed famed investigative journalist Seymour Hersh's findings that President Erdogan of Turkey gave the chemical weapons to "rebels" to use in Syria back in 2013, which proves that the chemical weapons attack was not Assad's doing, and one of those MPs was charged with treason for what he said. counterpunch.org/2015/10/23/hersh-vindicated-turkish-whistleblowers-corroborate-story-on-false-flag-sarin-attack-in-syria/

Seymour Hersh recently published an article about how US intelligence was aware that Assad did not want to commit political suicide by dropping sarin gas on his civilians, rather that it was just a terrorist safe house that was precisely bombed, that had a lot of fertilizer in the basement with deadly chemicals to be used in weapons, but President Donald Trump of the United States ignored their repeated warnings.

There was also some issues with the UK ex-military created "White Helmets", being that they are supposed to be neutral, but are commonly seen standing near dead Syrian Arab Army bodies, and have handled apparent recent sarin gas victims back in April of 2017, with little protection, and they should have had adverse reactions within ten seconds of coming into contact with an area touched by sarin gas.

In addition to that, suspended for kidnapping UK doctor Shajul Islam, was on Twitter apparently taking care of these sarin gas victims while tweeting a lot, and offering live video chats for anyone with questions. People question where he found the time to do all of those things while supposedly trying to save the lives of these victims.

Witnesses in the area said that the trucks in the coverage of the Khan Sheikhoun attack were the same trucks al-Qaeda affiliates used to kidnap locals, and those bodies in the coverage look familiar to them.

Journalist Eva Bartlett, who unlike Amnesty International and the Coventry, UK based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, was actually in Syria, and acquired a first-hand account of what was going on, said that most people in Aleppo she asked didn't know who the White Helmets were, and they claimed that they were helping all over Aleppo.

I think these things are important to add, especially to counter the devil's advocacy that has already been presented on the article for a long time now. PKDL (talk) 01:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

@PKDL: Thank you for your interest in contributing to Wikipedia! Unfortunately, that exception cannot be granted for you because that action is not possible. However, I can take this as a request for an edit on this page and help you add any new information you have that is properly and reliably sourced. If you can provide me with credible sources to the information you have written, I will be happy to verify it.

Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a forum or a place for argumentative discussion; the reason this page has been semi-protected is to avoid disputes between editors and edit warring. Because the information you have provided will most likely be controversial, a consensus must be reached by the community before any of it can be added, even if your source(s) are verified.

All the best, – GeneralAdmiralAladeen (Têkilî min) 03:13, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

With the recent advancements on Turkish border (liberation of 20 Turkmen villages and Çobanbey town and border crossing) and in Aleppo (gaining of a vicinity from YPG) by Syrian Turkmen Brigades of the Syrian Turkmen Assembly (part of Syrian Opposition), I think Syrian Turkmen Brigades can be showed on the infobox. Sputnik, Anadolu Agency, Haber7, Al Jazeera

Turkmens, Syrian Turkmen Assembly and Syrian Turkmen Brigades "must" be mentioned in the Syrian Opposition part since they are currently the driving opposition force in North Aleppo and center of the Turkey's Syria policy. - Berkaysnklf (talk) 7 April 2016, 18:12 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.75.198.117 (talk)

I concur. The Syrian Turkmen Brigades should be included on the infobox. Nuke (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Other than the Southern Front which is the largest coalition within the FSA, not a single union within the FSA is listed in the infobox. Listing them will take too much space and if the Turkmen Brigades are included, people will also want other FSA unions such as the Free Idlib Army in it. The Syrian Turkmen Brigades isn't an actual unified group but a loose union, unlike the other two coalitions I mentioned. Editor abcdef (talk) 11:27, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Under the photograph it says "Victims of the Ghouta chemical attack carried out by government forces".

Who was the perpetrator of the chemical attack is unclear and is widely disputed: Ghouta chemical attack

The Final UN Mission report about the event also does not determine the perpetrator of the attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.125.151 (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

It's the militia of the Syrian Social National Party, a Ba'ath ally/client party. The militia has about 6,000 to 8,000 troops https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/28/the-eagles-of-the-whirlwind/ and is increasing in importance as the Syrian government needs to draw the countries Christians into the armed forces. Eagles of the Whirlwind. Should be listed as a major Pro-SAA belligerent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.206.228 (talk) 05:20, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

File:Eagles of the Whirlwind logo.jpg File:Flag of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party.svg— Preceding unsigned comment added by Martan32 (talk • contribs) 05:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

This article nowhere mentions that Israel has been supporting the Syrian opposition for years; with cash, humanitarian assistance, food deliveries and occasional military actions. The Wall Street Journal wrote about that in a lengthy and detailed article circa 2 weeks ago > . Also, ISIS apologized to Israel for "mistaken" attack and vowed to never attack again > .

I agree it even needs to be listed in the infobox as a belligerent, but some editors think they have found a loophole by claiming Israel is not actually participating in this war, and that their clashes are part of some separate conflict only between Israel and the Syrian government/Hezbollah. Which is reaching quite a bit, especially given the direct help for the rebels and coordination. FunkMonk (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

My understanding of the situation is that Israel is for anyone (Russian, American, or otherwise) who is fighting against the extremists, ISIS. Since Israel is not directly involved in this conflict, there is no reason to mention Israel, especially when those presenting Israel's case are often biased.Davidbena (talk) 19:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Israel doesn't give a damn about ISIS, it isn't a threat to them. The Israeli Defence minister has said "In Syria, if the choice is between Iran and the Islamic State, I choose the Islamic State". They're only afraid of Iran and Hezbollah, that's why they support Syrian rebels and bomb the government side again and again. FunkMonk (talk) 19:56, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Little do you know. I live in Israel, and there is nothing that concerns us more than Arab extremism/terrorism. Of course, Syria (an arch-rival and enemy of the Jewish State) has not, in recent history, instigated any wars against Israel, and now that they're pinned-down in this ongoing conflict, we can expect the situation to remain so for a long time to come. Of course, if given the choice between a war with Iran and a war with ISIS, ISIS would be the easier of the two. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 20:03, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what you or I think we know when the Israeli defence minister himself states he prefers ISIS over Iran and Hezbollah. And it doesn't change the fact that Israel is helping the very Islamic extremists in Syria that they are apparently so "concerned" about. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Your Wall Street Journal reports that Israel has been, for years, carving out a buffer zone populated by friendly forces. So what's wrong with giving food, fuel and medical supplies to people on the border? Do you really believe this is tantamount to waging a war against the Syrian nation? You see, you've taken this editorial just a little bit too far. Of course, if Israel should feel threatened or is attacked, Israel will defend itself.Davidbena (talk) 21:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

It means Israel is both arming a side of the conflict and attacking the forces that side is fighting. That makes it a part of the conflict. FunkMonk (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Israel never attacks an enemy, unless it first feels threatened or else it is being attacked. This does not make Israel a party in the current conflict (Civil War), but rather, Israel is doing what she has always done.Davidbena (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

That sounds like special pleading. FunkMonk (talk) 21:22, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

History speaks for itself. Besides, you have no consensus, not to mention any "reliable sources," to add here that Israel is a party to the current conflict.Davidbena (talk) 21:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I showed you reliable sources that state Israel provides weapons and money to Syrian rebel groups while attacking the Syrian government. What else does it take to be part of a conflict? FunkMonk (talk) 21:34, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

You showed a source that equates Israel's defense posture (when threatened) with actual military involvement in the current conflict. By the dupes of words artfully framed, that article seeks to mislead the simple-minded and naive.Davidbena (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, can you then explain what action would make Israel part of the conflict in your view? Or is Israel just never able to do wrong? FunkMonk (talk) 08:38, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree that Israel does not really (in earnest) view ISIL as a threat, as they know very well who is behind it. Besides, we have already a perfectly islamic state, whose judicial practice is virtually the same as Daesh; that state has just bribed Us gov with a few $ hundred billion to keep every one involved happy... But that is indeed beside the point here, as FunkMonk has pointed up. The issue of how Israel should be treated for the purposes of this article is worth attention, as well as the US, BTW. I already sectioned out the US as a ″belligerent″, but not in the infobox -- am just a bit coy about editing these juggernauts. I think, we ought to look at things in the broad scheme of things, encyclopedically, to coin a phrase. Amnot an expert, but the basics, I suppose, are these: Syria and Israel have always been and are at war (Israel–Syria relations), in a legal/technical sense, in terms of international law, that is. Thus, Israel is indeed a belligerent in that sense. The question is whether this fact is relevant to the subject this article is about. If attacks continue and we have some formal statements on that from Israel, I think we need to adjust accordingly.Axxxion (talk) 20:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I think this charade has gone on long enough. Even the Wall Street Journal is now reporting on lethal Israeli aid for five rebel groups, a few of them associated for the Free Syrian Army. I've added the info to the infobox. It's absolutely ridiculous to take the position that the Israeli support is somehow part of a "separate conflict" with some Syrian government-allied forces that's completely unrelated to the Syrian Civil War. Esn (talk) 01:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, it is getting ridiculous indeed. FunkMonk (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Besides, i created a new section in Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War#Israel, on the basis of what has been provided by colleagues here. Please contribute.Axxxion (talk) 15:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Nice, also needs mention of the continuous bombing of government forces. FunkMonk (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

The WSJ report (who got its info from the rebels) is probably reliable. Syrians probably have an unfavorable view of Israel, so the Syrian rebels would not say that they are receiving help from Israel unless it's true.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The WSJ report doesn't indicate lethal support provided by Israel, but rather emphasizes provision of food, medicine, cash and fuel - all not lethal, but rather humanitarian assistance items. There is no "big news" here - Israelis provide humanitarian support for several years into rebel held areas, as many other countries. This is not belligerency.GreyShark (dibra) 13:08, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

I understand including Israel as an entity in the Civil War but I think claiming it as supporting the rebels is a bit misleading. It is clear that Israel is against the Syrian regime and has launched airstrikes against it but they have not done so in support of the Free Syrian Army or any other rebel group. They should at most be included as a co-belligerent of the rebels.72.90.157.229 (talk) 18:14, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Nothing changed since past discussion concerning Israel (see talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel) - there are marginal border incidents, there are alleged attacks / fire exchanges with Hezbollah with Israel as suspect as part of the Iran-Israel proxy conflict and there is Humanitarian assistance during the Syrian Civil War (Israel treating Syrian wounded and supplying some aid to rebel-controlled areas). Israel is not a belligerent, Israeli forces are not in Syria and there is no military support to neither side. Period.GreyShark (dibra) 12:59, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Someone completly removed Israel from the infobox despite the facts and sourced material. Clearly some people have an agenda to "prove" 'that Israel does nothing in Syria, whilst the country clearly supports the rebels and attacks military targets assosictaed with the legitimate Syrian government and its allies. Israel provides cash, aid, fuel, treats wounded rebels in hospitals, and attacks Syrian tanks/ armored vehicles whenever there's government offensive near the internationally recognized occupied Syrian Golan Heights. Israel does have a business in Syria and it does support the rebels associated with the FSA. IDF also crossed border with Syria on multiple occasions. Lie as much as you want, but nobody can deny the facts that Israel is an active participant in the conflict acting against the government in Damascus. If Israel is not a belligerent, then Iran isn't either. Iranian focres are not in Syria and there is no military support for either side. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.72.109 (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - recent assessment of Israeli humanitarian aid for Syrians can be found at Myths and misconceptions about Israel and Syrian rebels on the Golan. The researcher al-Tamimi clearly indicates that the "aid" to Syrian rebels includes sctricly humanitarian items, with diesel fuel used to power water pumps.GreyShark (dibra) 07:28, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment This is getting beyond ridiculous. The Israeli flag is not mentioned among the involved nations, while the flags of Netherland or Norway is? ROTFL! Huldra (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - Mossad is clearly trying to prevent wikipedia from adding their country to the war template for the Syrian Civil War on the FSA rebel side. AHC300 (talk) 10:44, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Hilarious!GreyShark (dibra) 16:41, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

In 2016, there were reports that DPRK troops were fighting to defend the Syrian government in the Syrian Civil War. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/03/25/are-north-koreans-fighting-in-syria-its-not-as-far-fetched-as-it-sounds/?utm_term=.c6de84dac035 AHC300 (talk) 10:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

The source doesn't indicate Korean involvement, but rather offers a theory. This is not WP:NOTABLE.GreyShark (dibra) 16:51, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

And of course this is WP:RSOPINION, not a fact.GreyShark (dibra) 06:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Practically from the very beginning this article (and countless others on English Wikipedia) states that the war in Syria is between the Sunni majority and the Alawite minority government. But this notion is very misleading due to the complex structure of relations within the country itself. Assad does enjoy wide support among many of the Sunni Syrians. Chris Zambelis writing in 2015 for the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point analysed the topic here > , for example, he concludes that Sunni Syrians are ,,well represented" in the National Defence Forces (Syria), and that ,,estimates indicate that Sunnis account for between 60 and 65 percent of the regular army." He also mentions that Shabiha was composed of many Sunnis. Another source, namely Thanassis Cambanis writing in 2015 for Foreign Policy touched upon that too > . Edward Dark writing in 2014 for Al-Monitor pointed out that it was the pro-government Sunnis in Aleppo that stopped the rebel offensive, which caused the city not to be overrun . The Times of Israel reported in June 2014 that individuals interviewed in a "Sunni-dominated, middle-class neighborhood of central Damascus" claimed wide support for Assad . Various Sunnis in position of power, also remained loyal to the government, for example; Wael Nader al-Halqi, Fahd Jassem al-Freij, Walid Muallem, Mohammad al-Shaar, Asma al-Assad and many others. Organizations that rely heavly on Sunnis are, for example; Ba'ath Brigades, Liwa al-Quds, NDF, Shabiha, Syrian Arab Army (for example, the 4th Mechanized Division is entirely composed and led by Sunnis ). Chris Zambelis himself pointed out that the alleged secterian nature of the Syrian conflict largely remains thanks to the salafis and their propaganda. I think that this article should be rewritten to include non-bias narrative free of personal agendas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.72.109 (talk) 03:28, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm questioning the quote:

"The unrest in Syria, part of a wider wave of 2011 Arab Spring protests, grew out of discontent with the Assad government and escalated to an armed conflict after protests calling for his removal were violently suppressed."

This is a single perspective interpretation of the course of events in the Syrian war, and it is presented as absolute, immutable fact. The cited source of the quote cherry-picks facts and events to present, with no consideration of other issues - like outside-state sponsored terrorism (which, coincidentally, is quite similar to what's happening in the United States right now as concerns Antifa) as causative factors.

I'm not against this statement being true, if that were the case, but I believe it is insufficiently established as firm fact and should not be presented as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.235.243 (talk) 11:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

How is a book review rs for such contentious claims? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:21, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The source above is not a "book review," just as Seymour Hersh's account of "The Killing of Osama bin Laden," also in the London Review of Books, is not a book review. The reliability of the London Review of Books is not seriously open to question (ask WP:RSN if you disagree), and, for whatever it's worth, Flynn has publicly expressed many of the same sentiments he did when interviewed by Hersh. In addition, Hersh's central claims have all been corroborated by other media reports (e.g., ) and declassified U.S. government documents (e.g., ). This long-standing content was deleted by an IP with no discussion on the talk page, and I would like to see a better rationale for deletion than dismissing Hersh as a mere "book reviewer."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:47, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Don't be fooled by the name - London Review of Books is not (only) a book review. It is a publication that only runs in-depth essays. Seymour Hersh specifically is a highly noted journalist, specifically in LRB he is noted for . Investigative journalism is dying in many places, this is not one of them (as long as it is running).Icewhiz (talk) 20:52, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Review, or essay, that source cannot be used for statements of fact as it currently is. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:26, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Of course it can; you can go to WP:RSN if you disagree, or you should self-revert. The LRB is in fact one of the very best sources that could be cited in this article.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Do we really need a section for foreign involvement when a lot of the foreign parties are already described in the Belligerents section (e.g. Russia, Iran, US-led coalition)? I think the Foreign Involvement section should be merged into the Belligerents section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree - let's make foreign involvement into sub-topic of the belligerents section and tweak it down to minimum.GreyShark (dibra) 13:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

 DoneGreyShark (dibra) 17:55, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

This article is used to support Israel as supporting the opposition. I have looked around, and I cannot see any other outlets reporting or corroborating any of this, but the writer of the article [seems somewhat credible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rania_Khalek). However, I see an extraordinary claim here without much evidence provided in the article, so on one hand leaning towards removing it until this is confirmed by more sources. On the other hand, Alternet's credibility as a source doesn't seem to be challenged and the writer seems well-established, so what do you guys think? Eik Corell (talk) 19:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Not sure of the writer/source. But the piece doesn't actually really provide anything terribly new - it states the local level low-level support to cross-border Sunni forces (Food, medical, some military to a limited extent) - which is well published. It then follows on with allegations, unsubstantiated, that Israel has attempted to kill Majed. How does Majed know that the drone strikes are Israeli? and not Jordanian? or American? or something else? Is Majed a RS? Are the NDF soldiers interviewed a RS for Israeli involvement (the source of air/artillery strikes)?Icewhiz (talk) 19:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Military aid to "limited extent" from Israel to the Sunni rebels? Can you give sources to this?GreyShark (dibra) 15:53, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Stress on extremely limited - the same WSJ article that's been making waves - .Icewhiz (talk) 15:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Unless there is something i'm missing, this is typical case of a reliable source citing rumors ("Israel has been regularly supplying Syrian rebels near its border with cash as well as food, fuel and medical supplies for years, a secret engagement in the enemy country’s civil war aimed at carving out a buffer zone populated by friendly forces. The Israeli army is in regular communication with rebel groups and its assistance includes undisclosed payments to commanders that help pay salaries of fighters and buy ammunition and weapons, according to interviews with about half a dozen Syrian fighters...". WSJ clearly indicates a fact that Israel supplies humanitarian and medical aid, but when speaking of "buy ammunition and weapons", it discusses a rumor - it says "according to interviews with about half a dozen Syrian fighters". Rumors cited by reliable sources are still rumors and not facts.GreyShark (dibra) 16:15, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

You might also find this interesting if you missed it - . To a certain extent you are right - it is rumors (or what some of the rebels say) that the WSJ states with attribution (just Alternet does here). But even if the rumors are true - this is an extremely limited degree of support in a very limited geographical/organizational scope (these are all very local groups, a few hundred fighters along the border).Icewhiz (talk) 16:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

The airstrikes thing caught me as well. The article even goes on to quote a rebel: "They killed two of our soldiers last year. They confuse us and the Syrian army with Hezbollah.". I'm seeing a lot of unsubstantiated reports like this, and it seems par for the course to blame Israel for all kinds of things from ISIS itself, to assisting ISIS or the FSA, etc. I'm still leaning towards removing it. Eik Corell (talk) 23:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

They might just refer to the Israeli counterfire (by air or rocket) vs Syria each time a round lands in Israel. This is a low intensity sparodic cross border fire.Icewhiz (talk) 04:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - AlterNet doesn't seem to have any editorial board or policy, and thus though it might be popular to some extent it is not reliable per WP:RS.GreyShark (dibra) 16:10, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• I see no reason not to trust AlterNet in this case. It's received journalistic awards from numerous organizations -- including NPR, which is a state media company of the USA, a crucial Israeli ally. Therefore, I would say it has boosted credibility as a source biased against including secret Israeli support covering it regardless. In addition, it's good to include AlterNet at least in addition to WSJ as it is not paywalled. Furthermore, they do have an editor leading them and a foundation backing them and therefore they would logically have internal policies, even if they aren't published. I do not see any provision of WP:RS condemning investigative journalism, and therefore believe that the article -- which pretty much is typical investigative journalism -- should be considered legitimate. Nuke (talk) 17:26, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

One editor is exactly the opposite to the editorial board. Alternet in not WP:RS and it doesn't matter how much people may like it or not.GreyShark (dibra) 10:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter - as even if were to consider this reliable, it is relating the narrative of a Golan brigade commander (NDF). So if reliable we could state that Ahmad Kaboul said so and so - but not much beyond that.Icewhiz (talk) 10:43, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:RS does not require that any news organization have an editorial board, but merely "editorial oversight". As AlterNet at least has an editor, we should assume that they have editorial oversight. Nuke (talk) 16:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Israel provided medical treatment to fighters from Nusra and currently does it to other rebels who go back to the frontlines. That much is admitted by Israeli official sources themselves. Medical treatment to fighters and tolerance for them to go back to frontline is limited support and not just some whim of humanitarian work. Sources like Jerusalem Post have reported it, basing on a report by Wall Street Journal. The former is a pro Israeli right wing news org and the later is pro US republican one. Haaretz, a left leaning Israeli organization, has also reported on it and they quote an officer that claims Israeli did give medical treatment to Nusra but stopped in doing so. http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report-Israel-treating-al-Qaida-fighters-wounded-in-Syria-civil-war-393862 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.666961 CaliphoShah (talk) 12:37, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Medical treatment isn't enough to be listed on the infobox, based on current Wikipedia consensus, as it is "non-lethal" aid. In other words, Israel needs to supply ammunition or something else of that sort, or directly use weapons (but not troops on the ground) to attack the enemies of al-Nusra in battle, to be considered a combatant, and they are additionally granted an exception for any such military action as it relates to Hezbollah. Nuke (talk) 16:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Israel also provided medical aid to pro-Asad fighters and was accused by the opposition for supporting the Ba'ath regime in Syria.GreyShark (dibra) 06:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)