Talk:The Bronx/Name and capitalization

The Bronx was called Rananchqua^[1] by the native Siwanoy^[2] band of Lenape (the Delawares to Europeans), while other Native Americans knew the Bronx as Keskeskeck.^[3] It was divided by the Aquahung River.

Jonas Bronck (ca. 1600–1649), a Swedish sea-captain working for the Dutch, entering New Netherland in 1639, became the first recorded European settler in the area. He leased land from the Dutch West India Company on the neck of the mainland immediately north of the Dutch settlement in Harlem (on Manhattan island), and bought additional tracts from the local tribes. He eventually accumulated 500 acres (about 2 square km, or 3/4 of a square mile) between the Harlem River and the Aquahung, which became known as Bronck's River, or The Bronx. Dutch and English settlers referred to the area as Bronck's Land.^[4] The American poet William Bronk is a descendant of Pieter Bronck, either Jonas Bronck's son or younger brother.^[5]

The Bronx is referred to, both legally,^[6] and colloquially,^[7] with a definite article, as The Bronx. (The County of Bronx, unlike the coextensive Borough of the Bronx, does not place the immediately before Bronx in formal references, nor does the United States Postal Service in its database of Bronx addresses.)^[8] The name for this region, apparently after the Bronx River, first appeared in the Annexed District of the Bronx created in 1874 out of part of Westchester County and was continued in the Borough of the Bronx, which included a larger annexation from Westchester County in 1898. The use of the definite article is attributed to the style of referring to rivers.^[9][10] Another explanation for the use of the definite article in the borough's name is that the original form of the name was a possessive or collective one referring to the family, as in visiting The Broncks, The Bronck's or The Broncks'.^[11]

(See Talk:Bronx/Archive 1)

Bronx County and Bronx are now the same article, because they talk about the same place. WhisperToMe 18:30, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't agree with replacing "the Bronx" with "The Bronx." Common usage dicates that when talking about the Bronx in the middle of the sentence (like I just did in this sentence), "the" is not capitalized. This is the same as talking about the United States. I'm tempted to revert immediately, but would like some feedback first. --BaronLarf 22:42, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

My initial reaction was to agree with "The Bronx", but a few google searches changed my mind; I now agree with BaronLarf; it should be "the Bronx". All of the NY Times, the NYC Government, and the US Census bureau seem to use "the Bronx" (except, of course, at the beginning of a sentence). Try searching for "in the bronx" site:www.nyc.gov, for example. --RoySmith 00:45, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Of course the correct usage is "the Bronx" (lower case "t") if in the middle of a sentence; likewise "the Bronx River", etc. I am changing all of the incorrect "The"s to "the" - don't know why it wasn't done yet. Capitalizing "the" in the middle of a sentence is moronic and is never done. Tvoz 06:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to the Bronck's. I'm going to the Bronx.HardyandTiny 07:47, 6 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hardyandtiny (talk • contribs)

Either have this at The Bronx or Bronx County, New York, not Bronx. --Jiang 11:22, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Per #The Bronx or the Bronx above, I've placed a citation-needed tag within ¶2 as it doesn't seem clear whether "Bronx" or "The Bronx" is the "official borough name"; visiting some of the external links provided plus the first few Google results suggests to me that if there is an official borough name, it's more likely to be "Bronx".

Results from the US Geological Survey's website and from the US Census Bureau's website (NB ACS: 2003 ACS Narrative Profile for Bronx Borough) seem to suggest the same.

In lieu of any official citation otherwise, therefore, perhaps the article ought to be renamed to "Bronx" or "Bronx County" while ensuring (1) redirects are in place; and (2) references along the lines of the above (or, preferably, something (even) more official) are included. "The Bronx" may then be described as a recognized moniker. Thanks in advance for any clarification, David Kernow (talk) 03:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
PS Many (most? all?) of the articles on neighborhoods etc seem to use "Bronx" rather than "The Bronx" in their names.

Your ps is correct. The people who write neighborhood list articles tend to like official names. But this encyclopedia is not prescriptivist. Local usage says that they are wrong, no matter what the first three google links say. The signs on the highway say "Welcome to the Bronx" and I'll hunt down as many refs as you would like for local usage. Jd2718 03:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me it is "The Bronx". Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 03:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Jd2718 and Pacific CH for your input; I've rephrased the article's opening in an attempt to clarify the situation and include a <ref>; hope it's acceptable. Best wishes, David (talk) 03:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Local usage is absolutely inclusive of the word "the" before "Bronx" (capitalized or not is another matter). No doubt about that. However, I don't think that makes anyone who claims an "offical", "prescriptivist", name for the borough (or the county) as simply "Bronx" as wrong. Further, not to get too "Miracle on 34th Street" on everyone, but the US Postal Service considers the name to be "Bronx, New York". Shoreranger 18:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• New York City has 5 boroughs (Manhattan, The Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island). It also has 5 counties, which correspond one-to-one with the boroughs (New York County, Bronx County, Kings County, Queens County, and Richmond County). Staten Island says in the beginning of the article is article is about the borough in New York City. Bronx says, "Bronx" and "Bronx County, New York" redirect here.. The lack of uniformity makes it hard to figure out what the right answer is. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This article should be renamed for two reasons: 1) The official name of the Borough is "Borough of the Bronx," (as distinguished from "Borough of Brooklyn" "Borough of Manhattan" etc.), as seen here in this pdf planning document from the Bronx Borough President's office. http://bronxboropres.nyc.gov/en/gv/president/strategicpolicy.pdf 2) Even if 1) were otherwise, this debate goes beyond what is the "official" name listed on some dusty ledgers somewhere and into what is understood in common American culture. Everybody knows that the place is and has been called "The Bronx" in common parlance and in literature and pop culture for generations. To eliminate the "The" in the title is to follow the rule book out the window. People who are unfamiliar with New York but see or hear "the Bronx" in innumerable novels, newspaper and magazine articles, TV shows, movies, websites, etc., will be a little confused by the absence of the definite article from the title. The Interloafer 04:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• I couldn't be in any stronger agreement that the article should be moved back to "The Bronx". Alansohn 04:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I was shocked to the "the" dropped from the title of this entry. Nobody ever says "I'm going up to Bronx." or "I'm from Bronx." You say "I'm going up to the Bronx." and "I'm from the Bronx." We should change it back. futurebird 04:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with above comments. Should be renamed. (and then maybe talk about get neighborhoods in Queens renamed, per local usage, Jamaica, NY, etc) Jd2718 04:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, an informal poll of New Yorkers at livejournal favors "The Bronx" http://community.livejournal.com/newyorkers/3222883.html futurebird 17:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

BrooklynBen is a native New Yorker who went to school in The Bronx. Without question the word "the" should be placed in front of "Bronx." The legal name of the borough is "The Bronx" and you can find that on any official New York map or resource, such as < http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/neighbor/neighbor.pdf > or < http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/neighbor/neigh.shtml >. Whether you capitalize "The" is mid-sentence is debatable, but I certainly would. The name of the borough is The Bronx.--BrooklynBen (talk) 06:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Didn't we talk about this? Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 00:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The article was inconsistent in its capitalization of the "the" in "the Bronx". Sometimes, in the middle of a sentence one would find "The Bronx" and other times "the Bronx". I expect there are strong opinions on both sides. The Wikipedia:Manual of Style says:

"Proper names of institutions (for example, the University of Sydney, New York-Presbyterian Hospital, George Brown College) are proper nouns and require capitalization. Where a title starts with the, it typically starts with lowercase t when the title occurs in the middle of a sentence: a degree from the University of Sydney."

This is disputed apparently, but until there is a consensus to change it, this is probably a sensible approach to a standard for the article. If the Manual changes, then capitalizing "the" would make sense. Ground Zero | t 20:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Look over the earlier discussions of this topic. The consensus was (like your own view), not to capitalize "The" in "the Bronx" in the middle of a sentence without good reason unless the capitalized "The Bronx" was in the middle of a quotation. Apart from the Bronx itself, the only exception that comes immediately to my mind is in the names of newspapers and periodicals, like The Economist and The New York Times. Shakescene (talk) 20:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

This archives the naming sections of Talk:Bronx/Talk:The Bronx as it was October 30, 2010, after the page had been moved back to The Bronx. —— Shakescene (talk) 18:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to know (and really think it would be interesting to include) the reason why the Bronx is always preceded by the definite article "the" as if it were a noun. Names and placenames normally don't take an article; eg "I visited the Manhattan" would be wrong. OTOH "I visited Bronx" (without "the") seems more natural to me but perhaps it would sound wrong to Americans. Certainly it would be appropriate to include an explanation on why (the) Bronx is an exception to this rule. pictureuploader (talk) 10:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it's because it is named after a river? pictureuploader (talk) 12:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

It's called "The Bronx" because it was named after one of the first settlers in the area, Jonas Bronck. The Bronx River was named after him, and then the area -- which makes sense when one thinks of "going to the Bronck's". Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

By City law, the borough is "The Bronx", spelled with a capital "T". Administrative Code of the City of New York, § 2-202 & subdivision 2 (http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$ADC2-202$$@TXADC02-202+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=06297916+&TARGET=VIEW (as accessed Jul. 31, 2010)). Subd. 6 refers to "the Bronx" and so does § 2-104 (and probably other provisions) but § 2-202 is the defining provision and subd. 2 defines its boundaries. See also § 2-201 ("The Bronx"). In the City Charter, also titled New York City Charter, as amended through July 2004 (http://home2.nyc.gov/html/charter/downloads/pdf/citycharter2004.pdf (as accessed Jul. 31, 2010)), which is the City's equivalent of a Constitution, only § 2 is germane and it isn't specific enough.

I didn't find in the state Constitution or statutes a definition of the county. They refer to "Bronx", but that's not a definition.

Conclusion: The county is "Bronx" and the borough is "The Bronx".

This is germane to very recent edits to the article.

Nick Levinson (talk) 03:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

That's been my understanding, from the odd official documents or statements I've seen: "The Borough of the Bronx" and "The County of Bronx"; cf. "The Borough of Brooklyn" and "The County of Kings" [— and the king of counties?]. See the discussions at various sections of Talk:The Bronx/Archive 1 about this and about whether to capitalize "T" in the middle of sentences (the consensus was not to capitalize T mid-sentence).

The tricky point, on which I'm far from 100% certain myself, is how best to convey the differences to the first-time reader. Boldfacing "The" might help point out the distinction, but, as the editor who removed boldface might easily argue, it doesn't follow Wikipedia's practice in The United States of America and The Netherlands. However, The Gambia in both title and boldfacing, is a strong argument on the other side (i.e. the recent renaming was over-hastily executed where no consensus was visible.)

[There's a parallel, though different, problem at the article on Manhattan which covers not only the coextensive County of New York, but also to Manhattan Island, which has different, shorter bounds. When someone undid the boldfacing of New York County and Manhattan Island, I reverted since they're equally subjects of that article, but I wish there were a cleaner way of indicating the topics definitively covered by an article.] —— Shakescene (talk) 18:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I like what's in the lede of the Bronx article now, which gives both forms and then uses "the Bronx" in running text. In cases of nontrivial confusion, giving all the forms and their explanations or references in a sentence in the lede or first section is a good solution. For example, The Columbia Encyclopedia (Columbia Univ. Press, 5th ed. 1993 (ISBN 0-395-62438-X)) begins one entry thus: "China, Mandarin Zhonghua renmin gongheguo [central glorious people's united country; i.e., people's republic], country . . . ." (Boldface, italics, and brackets so in original.) I would include not only definitions from organic law but also definitions from outsiders likely to cause people, especially natives, to arrive at other formulations, such as those from history and those from external naming authorities (e.g., U.N. for nations and national naming authorities for localities) and postal authorities. For example, the U.S. Postal Service about a decade ago started insisting that every community in Queens be known simply as "Queens" and threatened to withdraw advertising from a local community newspaper that didn't go along with the renaming. A lot of Queens communities are married to their local names. On the other hand, I wouldn't consider how FedEx or UPS assign routes to their garages since no one outside of those companies is likely to be influenced by that.

As to the law defining Bronx, I'm still mystified that I didn't find better. It's hard to believe that the law is "we know what we mean". Whole states have sued each other in the U.S. Supreme Court over border disputes, nations have gone to war over them, and modern title deeds are much more specific these days (a rumor is one once said, "Start where old Jake shot the cow . . . ."). Three possibilities are that there's a state regulation, perhaps having to do with elections and legislative apportionment, filling in what the state Constitution and statutes omit, that there's case law from adjudication in a state court, perhaps depending on a document that predated the state's first constitution, and that the process of incorporating the county (whatever incorporating means and whenever that was) included writing up exactly what got incorporated. But I'll have to leave all that to other editors. Anyway, as noted, I like what's in the lede now. Thanks. Nick Levinson (talk) 19:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

If this page is going to be moved back to The Bronx, we definitely need a new formal discussion, since it was recently moved to its current page as a result of a discussion (see the section two above this one). Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this thankless work! Be bold, but check first, might be the new WPedia motto. Bellagio99 (talk) 22:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I see people referring to The Gambia, but could someone address why we're not spelling The Bronx like The Hague, as the editor who (prematurely) moved it said? --108.6.2.247 (talk) 19:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Reading your question more carefully, I see that you're asking why "the" in "the Bronx" isn't capitalized in the middle of a sentence, which is a slightly different issue. This was discussed (and documentation offered), with a consensus favoring lower-case in the middle of sentences, at Talk:Bronx/Archive 1#The Bronx or the Bronx and Talk:Bronx/Archive 1#"The Bronx" or the "Bronx" : Citation needed? Rename?. I think that many editors, including myself, waver between the two (at least in our minds), but, since there is an established consensus, stick to lower-case "the Bronx" in this article and related ones for the sake of consistency, when not directly quoting from an outside source that uses "The Bronx" (or, for that matter, "Bronx" without an article) mid-sentence. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:38, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

While of course always open to persuasion, I'm on the side of moving this back to The Bronx, but since significant numbers of editors can be found on either side of this issue, it should be discussed first. Discussions in earlier years, fairly firmly although not unanimously, established The Bronx as the consensus. I think that the more recent change back to Bronx was founded on a smaller sample of editors and comments, that looked more like "No Consensus" (which keeps the status quo), and was therefore much too hasty. [By way of comparison, most editors at New York City ardently desire that New York not automatically direct to the state, but because a long discussion there produced no consensus, it is stuck that way until and if what I consider a more sensible consensus prevails. See Talk:New York City.] So whenever the time is ripe for another discussion (we don't want to switch back and forth several times a year), I'd certainly support one. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Dear 108, It HAS been discussed several times before, and I agree with Shakes, The Bronx predominanted. But as life is short, I will just point you to read the archives, vote for The Bronx when asked, but otherwise try to butt out and focus on more important issues such as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Yours in Wikipedia. Bellagio99 (talk) 20:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The Bronx is the better choice (per WP:UCN). Unfortunately, we have many editors who are ardent believers in MOS! --RegentsPark (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy, screw what the majority says or !votes. The only thing that matters is what is the official name of the jurisdiction. Unfortunately, unless I am mistaken the county is Bronx, but the borough is The Bronx... am I correct in that? If so that leaves us at an impasse, if I am incorrect and both officially have the same name (and I know the county name does not have "the" in it) then it goes by the official name, end of discussion. Common person on the street can call it "shithole" for all Wikipedia cares, WP:UCN does not generally apply to something that is already in English and has an official name so readily available, I believe it should apply more to foreign-name places and in place of official bureaucratic names (eg- Kentucky instead of Commonwealth of Kentucky). As an aside- redirecting New York from the state is a BAD idea and would never get a consensus of those of us that work on the state article and other upstate-related articles regardless of what consensus could get reached on the city article talk page. It is unfortunate that the official name of both IS New York (there are no such entities as New York State or New York City), complain to the English. Maybe Parliment can retroactively do something...Camelbinky (talk) 21:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The website of the Bronx Borough President consistently uses "The Bronx", as seen here. The county is indeed "Bronx County", but the borough is "The Bronx". However in combining forms "Bronx" is often used even when referring to the borough. Thus Ruben Diaz is "Bronx Borough President" not "The Bronx Borough President". As to which should be used - well, like the combining form, it depends on the circumstances. The overriding political entity is New York City, the county is, for all intents and purposes, powerless. Within the city, the dominating local political entity is the borough, although since the reorganization of the city and the elimnination of the Board of Estimate the borough has much less power than it once did. Still, ask any long term resident, and they'll tell you that they live in "The Bronx" not "Bronx". My feeling is that the article should be moved to "The Bronx" as the normal and usual name of the area, the county being basically a jurisdictional non-entity, but care should be taken so that combining forms follow what's used in the real world, and we don't hew exclusively to "The Bronx". Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy, who cares what people on the street say? That argument, unless you have a reliable source stating some poll of the people on how they refer to the Bronx is not a valid argument and even with that poll it is only one piece of an argument. Yes, there is a problem between the county and the borough, the borough is older and one can argue that takes some precedence in this debate. The USPS however says that it is Bronx, not "the Bronx", and they are not refering to the county name. That's an argument in the other direction. The very title, whether Bronx or the Bronx is either way breaking convention as we do not put neighborhood or county or borough names as name only; only certain specific cities get that distinction (eg- Paris, New York City). Neighborhoods, counties, etc do not get a pass on this, NYC borough or not. The correct title should be one of the following- Bronx County, New York (based on this being a county article), The Bronx Borough, New York, New York (based on this being an article on the borough, The Bronx, New York (based on this being about the geographical entity commonly refered to as "The Bronx" even when part of Westchester County), or Bronx, New York (based on USPS ZIP code designation). Pick one. Ending this special treatment (and you see it with Hollywood as well) is a good way to end this perennial discussion.Camelbinky (talk) 00:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy, but fortunately it is also not a dictatorship where Camelbinky's word is law, so I'll pass on the choice you would like to shove down our throats, and instead I'll continue to express my opinion about what would be best for the encyclopedia.

The policy is for article names in general to favor common, everyday English-language usage, and for those of us from New York, who grew up in the area, who have some knowledge of the usage of the people who live here -- that would seem to leave you out, I believe -- "The Bronx" is the common name of the area, as well as the legal name of the borough, as pointed out above. As for a disambiguating word, we don't do it as a matter of form, we do it when it's necessary to, well, reduce ambiguity. There is no other "The Bronx", and in fact no other "Bronx", so there is no need for a disambiguating "New York".

Now, may I suggest that you take a moment to chill out, get off of your high horse, and stop attempting to dominate the discussion by brute force. If you wish to continue the discussion, do so civily and with respect for your fellow editors, and stop behaving as if you are some sort of authority od either the common name of the area -- which you clearly aren't -- or on Wikipedia policy, which you are misrepresenting. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I vote the name be "The Bronx". Otherwise we'd be going against the immortal words of Ogden Nash

The Bronx

No thonx

Anyway, I grew up and still do saying "The Bronx" altho I married a girl from "Queens" (and not The Queens). Bellagio99 (talk) 03:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I missed this earlier. Of course it should be The Bronx, then, now and always. I too was born and raised there, and lived there for many years - yes, we do have some knowledge of the proper usage, USPS be damned. Tvoz/talk 05:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

May I point to The Hague. Nobody calls it "Hague". There are historical reasons behind these anomolous usages, which should be respected. We don't steamroll over reality in order to make it fit into pre-determined boxes; or, at least, we shouldn't.Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Beyond my Ken, you obviously don't know the policy on how to name articles. Talking to you not worth it. If anyone has crossed the line of civility it was you. I am a New Yorker, born and raised, dont insult my birthright of being a NYer and say I dont know anything about the region. Second of all- POLICY rules on Wikipedia NOT what the common man on the street says! This is not a "Camelbinky rule" it is a Wikipedia policy. Get it straight. You want to ignore policy fine, but you can't make a decision on Wikipedia yourself that contradicts it. If anyone is trying to be a dictator it is you. I'm following established convention. The Hague is a city, not comparable. You cant even come up with a legit reason for your points, back up your points with Wikipedia policy. You cant or dont know policy well enough. !votes and opinions that arent backed up with policy can and will be ignored when a decision based on consensus is reached. So I suggest you read policy and back up your points with them or you can and will be ignored in the decision reached. Thanks.Camelbinky (talk) 05:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and on the many noticeboards I do work on and the many policy talk pages I work on and the numerous policies I have helped change aspects of I don't recall your name Beyond my Ken... so of the two of us who is misrepresenting their knowledge of policy? Hmmm... I think I've done quite enough work on changing Wikipedia policy that I know what I am saying. Please dont assume I dont know anything.Camelbinky (talk) 05:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

As for your comment about the disambiguation of city, state being not needed, that is FALSE. Again- you showed your ignorance of policy/guidelines. It is in fact the "rule" in Wikipedia, as encoded in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), a guideline in accordance with the policy WP:Article titles. Both of which I suggest you read, as you seem to have not done so. It in fact seems to your entire belief of what Wikipedia does is based on what you believe you have come across and what makes sense to you on how Wikipedia should be run. Well Wikipedia has actual written policy and guidelines that you may want to read. But of course you've turned this into a personal contest between you and me. You may want to read our policies about commenting on the content, not on the commentator; I admit to breaking that "rule" here to after being goaded by you, though that is no excuse so I will stop. But I warn you to stop as well, do not comment about me personally again as this can and will get you a sterner warning on your talk page and further action may be needed. Please stick to the content of points backed by policy.Camelbinky (talk) 05:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

← From the top of Wikipedia:Naming conventions: This guideline documents an English Wikipedia naming convention. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. The five boroughs of New York City are handled as exceptions: none have "county" or "borough" in the titles - they are Manhattan, Queens, Staten Island, Brooklyn and (should again be) The Bronx. This is because (quoting from the same guideline): Our article title policy provides that article titles should be chosen for the general reader, not for specialists. By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called. Tvoz/talk 07:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Camel, You've done a huge amount of work in Wikipedia, and I respect you for that. But you've come late to this many-years discussion, and there IS a consensus, that it is The Bronx. Tvoz, BeyondMyKen, Shakescene, myself, and other users (when this was last debated) agree. What happened is that folks were on holiday, and the article got renamed/moved with minimal discussion or consensus. Wikipedian Tvoz has clearly demonstrated that The Bronx is within Wiki policy. Famous poet Ogden Nash has immortalized the The. (See my post earlier in this section.) Surely this is not an issue worth fulminating about, so let's cut back the invective, move/rename the article, and move on ourselves to doing the really useful WikiDeeds that we've all done. Cheers, Bellagio99 (talk) 14:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I've copied, without cutting (deleting), all the sections of the talk pages and History of the Bronx that seem to relate in some way to the Bronx's name, capitalization or use of an article at Talk:Bronx/Name. And the material is even vaster than I remember, but should be read by everyone who wants to expound on these matters, since someone else may have done so even more forcefully, with even more persuasive sources, in a previous discussion.

Without wanting to drown this in even further sub-discussions, I'm wondering whether to just BE BOLD and delete these sections from this page (and maybe Talk:Bronx/Archive 1, but not of course History of the Bronx), and move the whole preceding discussion (and future ones) to the new page. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:26, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I think you should leave the original material where it is, as a record of the chronology of the past discussion(s), but gathering all the background material together on one page is an excellent idea, as people can be sent there to bone up on what's gone before. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Now that we've moved this back to The Bronx, there are still over 500 (but fewer than 1,000) links to Bronx (according to "What links here" at Bronx). How many of these need checking and fixing to avoid broken links? Is there some automated or semi-automated way of doing this? —— Shakescene (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

There are no double redirects, so nothing needs fixing. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 00:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)