Talk:Tim Pool/Archive 9

Discussion about relevant sources

• There is a lot of discussion here, but it would be helpful to provide the sources that describe the article subject as a "conspiracy theorist" and then have a discussion about whether they are adequate under policies such as MOS:LABEL. – notwally (talk) 22:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  I took a look at them and its NBC news^[1], New republic^[2], and BBC^[3]. I also serached google and several others also lay the same claim. Seems there is a lot of reliable, and verifiable, references backing it up. This should not be a hard addition. ContentEditman (talk) 01:34, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  It would be helpful if you could provide those other sources as well. Contentious labels are supposed to be "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject". Three sources may be adequate, especially high quality ones, but that may also depend on how much coverage the article subject receives. I think consensus for inclusion of the disputed category would be easiest to achieve if as many sources as possible are provided. – notwally (talk) 01:46, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it be included? So many reliable sources describe him as such. Are you trying to whitewash his article? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

LilianaUwU, if there are "so many" sources, then it should be easy to provide them here so that a consensus can be formed, as required by policy when the inclusion of contentious information is challenged. Also, I would suggest you strike your "whitewash" accusation and refrain from personal attacks. – notwally (talk) 01:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Those sources are already in the article, mainly in the lenghty Career section. And you won't make me strike a simple question. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 01:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Other than the three sources already noted by ContentEditman above, I do not see any other relevant sources in the career section. I do not believe three sources is the same as "so many". If you are not interested in actually contributing to a productive discussion, I'm not sure why you are commenting here. – notwally (talk) 02:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

SPLC and the Boston Globe also call Pool a conspiracy theorist.

Not that this isn't just about the conspiracy theorist category, but also about a part of the career section that got removed (see here). Cortador (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, to put the BLPCAT in the article we would need more than just a few sources calling him a conspiracy theorist. It would have to be perhaps a plurality of sources making that claim. Springee (talk) 03:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

There are already 5 sources just on this talk page along stating as such. That is a lot more than a few, more than required for adding something of this nature not only category but also adding to career section. ContentEditman (talk) 11:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I see two above and one is SPLC which is an activist group and should be viewed as opinion vs reporting. The Boston Globe is rather left leaning and while the reporter does use the label that certainly is far from sufficient to use it for a BLPCAT. Further up we have NBC which doesn't call Pool a CT so that one is out. The New Republic is a biased source. The BBC doesn't call Pool a CT ("The podcaster Tim Pool, a former Occupy Wall Street supporter and Vice News reporter, "). The problem with a number of the source provided is they either don't say what people claim or they aren't sufficient to support a BLPCAT label. BLP should not be written in a way that suggests we are trying to denigrate the article subject. We can show (and we do) but we shouldn't tell. That many not be good writing 101 but it's not far from it. Springee (talk) 12:05, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources don't need your personal approval. You need to make a better case than just "It's biased", and/or demonstrate that there is consenus to consider the source as such. Cortador (talk) 12:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not about personal approval. We need multiple reliable, non-opinion sources that explicitly call Pool a conspiracy theorist. The Globe article is an opinion piece. SPLC's and TNR's views should be presented with attribution. If we want to present this view with attribution, as has been done already, the bar is lower, but we should still insist on sources that use "conspiracy theorist" explicitly. Synonymous language like "frequent promoter of conspiracy theories" would be fine, but linking him to one conspiracy theory is not enough. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

There are reference already on his page that said "Tim Pool, a YouTube conspiracy theorist". Its also not our job to "link" him to anything, we go by what the references say and many of them have been posted to his page and new ones on the talk page now. ContentEditman (talk) 14:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I meant that it's not enough for a source to link Pool to one conspiracy theory, if we mean to use that source to support "conspiracy theorist" as a wikivoice descriptor. The NBC News piece is an example. I agree it's not our job to do any linking. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It is enough for the source to say that he believes in, creates, or disseminates conspiracy theories (or just one conspiracy theory), we don't actually need them to literally call him a conspiracy theorist at all. Something like the BBC saying "There's no evidence that Garcia was inspired to action by Mr Pool's podcasts, which cover right-wing talking points and conspiracy theories." is enough Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

So is it Tim Pool or his podcasts that cover right-wing talking points? Because BBC clearly states Mr Pool's podcasts, and we're on Pool's BLP, not an article about his media organization. Additionally, MOS:LABEL policy sets the bar higher than sources merely labeling someone a conspiracy theorist, there has to be substance to the claim. Just swap out the word controversial with conspiracy theorist (per additional guidance on -ist/-ism terms): Rather than describing an individual using the subjective and vague term conspiracy theorist, instead give readers information about relevant conspiracy theories. Make sure, as well, that reliable sources establish the existence of the conspiracy theory and that the term is not used to grant a fringe viewpoint undue weight. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

it doesn't appear to be a seperate topic (The BBC doesn't treat it as one "Tim Pool, pictured in this photo from 2012, spread false rumours about the suspect's social media accounts") and the MOS isn't meant to be used like that, if you're appling it rigidly you're violating the MOS "The advice in this guideline is not limited to the examples provided and should not be applied rigidly." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Which is then followed up with, "If a word can be replaced by one with less potential for misunderstanding, it should be." Which is exactly what I did. I fail see why MOS:LABEL isn't applicable here.

I'm going to invoke WP:CIR now and walk away. There are no shortages of actual conspiracy theorists who have dozens (if not hundreds) of sources to back up the claim, and not just polemic hand-wavy attack articles, actual in-depth coverage on how and why said individual is a conspirator conspiracy theorist. The few low quality sources that have been presented just don't meet that bar, and until that changes I don't think my opinion on it will either. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry this has been a long discussion but I don't remember that, what was the word you suggested we use instead? Conspirator is also definitely not what you meant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:53, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I struck the conspirator usage, as it definitely carries a different connotation. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:58, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

And what was the word you suggested we use instead? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

When did NBC news, New Republic, BBC, etc... become "low quality sources". Maybe I missed that? ContentEditman (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Are we still arguing about whether this article should be included in "Category:American conspiracy theorists"?

"The central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to pages in Wikipedia within a hierarchy of categories."

Currently there are 200 articles in the category and if we are to every article where someone is as vocal about conspiracy theories as Tim Pool, it will run into thousands or even tens of thousands of pages. Isn't a "right-wing political commentator" by definition a conspiracy theorist? It would be like having a category for U.S. Republicans, with which there would be considerable overlap.

If I were using the category to learn about U.S. conspiracy theorists, I would want to see prominent names, such as Alex Jones.

TFD (talk) 15:46, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Your issue would appear to be a general one about how we handle categories and subcategories, if you want to change how categories work this is not the place to do it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

"Isn't a "right-wing political commentator" by definition a conspiracy theorist?" - By what definition would that be the case? Where did you get that definition from? Cortador (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

No it's not about how we handle categories etc. but how the guideline instructs us to. Can you explain what in the guideline justifies inclusion of this article? What purpose do you think including this article will achieve?

Cortador, most right-wing commentators promote the cultural Marxism conspiracy theory and the theory that critical race theory is being taught in schools. If you can find one that doesn't promote conspiracy theories, maybe we could set up a special category to help readers find them. TFD (talk) 18:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What definition is that, and what is your source for it? Cortador (talk) 19:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

See "Trump and other Republicans conjure a familiar enemy in attacking Democrats as 'communists'".

Is your view that the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory is not a conspiracy theory or that most Republicans don't believe it?

Some wackier conspiracy theories, such as the stolen 2016 election, the deep state and anti-vaxxism are also pretty common. On the fringes we have Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene who holds committee appointments. TFD (talk) 19:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Where in that article is a right-wing political commentator defined as a conspiracy theorist? Cortador (talk) 05:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you name one right-wing political commentator who does not advocate conspiracy theories?

While we're at it, the articles names Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio as spreading conspiracy theories. Are you going to put them into the category. And while I have not presented any sources that Trump has promoted conspiracy theories, such as claiming that the 2020 election was stolen, I think that if you give me a couple of days, I might find a source for that too. If there are credible sources for this, will you add Trump too? TFD (talk) 14:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The topic Donald Trump appears to already be in the categories American conspiracy theorists and COVID-19 conspiracy theorists. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

That makes the case a lot easier then. There's additional sources describing Pool as a right-wing commentator, so we can count those towards describing him as a conspiracy theorist too. Cortador (talk) 18:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

You still have not explained what benefit the categorization provides readers. Do you think that someone will look through a list of hundreds of American conspiracy theorists and choose to read this article and find they are more knowledgeable about the topic?

Why not just add Category:Conservatism in the United States to U.S. conspiracy theorists and then Tim Pool and his ilk will all be rolled up into it? Then readers can navigate the category and look for what type of conspiracy theorists they are interested in. TFD (talk) 19:10, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, please stop with the WP:FORUM. Start a blog if you want to make broad claims about other groups of people. This talk page is to discuss changes to this particular article based on reliable sources. – notwally (talk) 19:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Please avoid personal attacks. My only concern is that we follow guidelines. Despite repeated requests by me, you have not explained how your proposal meets guidelines. My position is that adding potentially thousands of articles to the U.S. conspiracy theorist category will not help readers with navigation, which is the reason for categories. If I am wrong, please explain instead of questioning my motives. TFD (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a personal attack in notwally's comment. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, telling you to stop with the repeated off-topic comments about your own personal views labeling all Republicans as conspiracy theorists is not a personal attack in any way. Also, I have made no proposals in this discussion at all. I merely requested that sources be provided so that a discussion can be had based on them rather than the just personal opinions of editors here. I don't know what you are reading, but an honest discussion about the article content based on the provided sources is what should be going on here. – notwally (talk) 15:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I assume you are proposing that if adequate sources are found, that this article should be added to the U.S. conspiracy theories category. If not, why are you participating in this discussion? TFD (talk) 19:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The Four Deuces You can leave your assumptions to yourself. To repeat myself, an honest discussion about the article content based on the provided sources is what should be going on here. – notwally (talk) 20:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Alright, so we're just talking and you have no intention of supporting the category. TFD (talk) 21:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, my intention is to support what I think is most appropriate according to sources. Since that is how discussions and consensus are supposed to work. Give it a try sometime. Take care. – notwally (talk) 21:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

If you are against Wikipedia categories for people, feel free to make a case for that on WikiProject Categories. This is, as normally already pointed out, not the place for this. Cortador (talk) 04:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

TFD is correct in noting that the BLPCATs aren't for attaching to every example that even remotely might fit. They should only be used in cases where label is all but universally applied. That isn't the case here. Springee (talk) 11:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:LABEL says that contentious labels "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject". A standard of "all but unverisally applied" seems significantly higher than "widely used". – notwally (talk) 15:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This argument would appear to go against existing policy, guideline, and practice... What are you seeing as the justification for "They should only be used in cases where label is all but universally applied."? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

It stems from BLPCAT as well as LABEL. I would suggest raising the issue at BLPN if you think we are being too cautious with the application of this category. Springee (talk) 18:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Where does WP:BLPCAT discuss about a higher standard of "all but universally applied"? That policy links to WP:LABEL regarding contentious categories on biographies. – notwally (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Nowhere. This is a standard set by Springee to prevent addition of this to the article. Cortador (talk) 18:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

That's a clear personal attack because it assumes bad faith and dishonesty by another editor. Not only does this type of statement make it more difficult to work together, but it diverts the discussion. I'm sure you wouldn't talk about one of your co-workers like that. TFD (talk) 19:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, why don't you just stick to discussing the article? – notwally (talk) 21:22, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Why are you discussing what I posted instead of discussing the article? TFD (talk) 01:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

"all but universally" is my way of emphasizing that when applying a contentious label in wiki voice to a BLP subject we need it to be something that sources would basically universally agree with even if they don't all use it. When you look at BLPN discussions related to contentious LABELs you will see that we have a very high standard for using a label. You might disagree if that standard is "all but universal" (is that 60% or just 40% with the others not disagreeing) but it's clearly more than a few sources say it. What we have here is a few sources of mixed quality making the claim. Springee (talk) 03:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It may stem from it... Buts its not in either place, you've invented it and we don't need to take your invention anywhere... We can dismiss it out of hand. Even if we decide that its not due we can still dismiss your personal standard for doing so. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the Springee standard is a step beyond the bar in policy and guideline, but I think the current sourcing is too paltry to meet the explicit requirements of WP:NPOV which we'd need to make a wiki-voice claim that would support a category label. The article text is much more important than the category, which the vast majority of readers will never notice. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:09, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Given the sources, I tend to agree with Firefangledfeathers. There appear to be about 4-5 high quality sources calling Pool a conspiracy theorist or saying that he spreads conspiracy theories, but is the term widely used enough when referring to Pool to state in Wiki-voice? I think there would have to be an argument that this coverage represents a significant amount of the mainstream coverage, but that is not the impression I get from a Google search. – notwally (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Since some of the issues raised here about labels and categories would the same for multiple articles, I suggest we discuss those issues at noticeboards. We need to clarify where conspiracy theorist is a label and the criteria for adding names to categories.

I suggest too that we wait until after the U.S. presidential election TFD (talk) 18:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

This was in the article was a claim attributed to SPLC. It's at minimum good for an attributed description. Cortador (talk) 19:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)