Talk:Titanium/Archive 2

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Titanium Lego models of Galileo Galilei, the goddess Juno and her husband, Jupiter were included inside Nasa's Juno space probe.^[1] Bzmag (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. -- Dane2007 ^talk 21:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

@Materialscientist: What the heck is "lower stiffness"?? Lesser numbers are not "lower"... except for children who measure themselves against a door post. Notice the formal names of the < and > operators do not use the "low" and "high" vernacular. Please consider each of the fixes in your reversion and expand on your objections. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Discourse 01:01, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

-- See the article on Titanium Alloy, the Young's modulus values mentioned there are higher for Ti alloys than for Al alloys, so the statement in this article regarding "lower stiffness" is definitely wrong, please correct and specify!

Allowing for the strength/weight and density of titanium, a structure with the same strength, made of titanium is less stiff than the same structure made of carbon fibre or aluminium alloys, assuming these structures are each optimally designed for the material.GliderMaven (talk) 17:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

(I only see this now, not with the Edit Request below). GliderMaven, I think this is not fully correct. Stiffness is not defined or compared wrt 'same strength'. It should be defined and compared for a specific geometry of the material body, and for the specific pressure (-direction for example). For example, stiffness is mesured for an I-beam (with dimensions: ...), and in longuitudinal direction. Then one can take a same-geometry I-beam of a different material, and measure stiffness for that same force direction. The weight is not involved. -DePiep (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

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Please remove 'Titanium alloys have less stiffness than many other structural materials such as aluminium alloys and carbon fiber.'. Stiffness is not a material property. In any case, the stiffness of a titanium component will be greater than an aluminium component of the same geometry. Mark.a.todd (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

 Done because first remark here is correct. Note that it might be re-added when saying like "Comparing same-geometry bodies, stiffness of titanium alloys is ..." BTW, is there an industry standard to compare stiffnesses? Like is done with "Speed of sound (thin rod)"? The second part, the actual statement, needs verification before being re-added. -DePiep (talk) 15:15, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I reverted this new phrasing, which was not discussed here btw. It was wrong again. As the OP correctly says, stiffness is not a material property (not defined by the material itself). Stiffness is defined for a specific geometry of that material, and then in a certain degree of freedom (e.g. pressure direction). So the new phrase 'weight for weight' is wrong too. Next, the new sentence writes 'construction materials', which is an unnecessary, distracting and incorrect addition. It can be said about every material, no restriction to construction required. Last, the statement with the comparision should be sourced as the OP rightly sort of points to. -DePiep (talk) 18:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

You are incorrect. If I make a structure out of rubber, and another structure out of aluminium, with enough rubber, then the two will have the same ultimate strength. But the rubber structure will not remotely be as stiff. That's a material property.

Titanium versus aluminium, has similar strength/weight at room temperature, and titanium is much stronger at higher temperatures, but titanium, weight for weight, is significantly less stiff than aluminium, weight for weight. Also, steel is much less stiff than aluminium, for the same strength component (that's why aluminium car bodies are far less often written off in crashes, a steel body is often distorted far from the impact point, whereas the far greater stiffness of aluminium protects the structure).

This was potentially going to be an issue for the Space Shuttle, but in the end they chose aluminium for cost reasons. It's also a subtle reason in other aerospace applications why aluminium still enjoys such extensive use, the stiffness/strength ratio is very favourable, which improves aeroelastic issues like wing flexing.GliderMaven (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

This may all be true, but has nothing to do with stiffness. Stiffness is determined by material and geometry. When you compare stiffnesses, you take two I-beams of the same dimensions and with the different materials. -DePiep (talk) 23:24, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

No, really not; beams are virtually always chosen to hold up a particular load with a designed degree of bending, with beams failure is usually by buckling. The relationship between bending and material properties and bending is discussed at: Specific_modulus#Specific_stiffness_in_buckling_and_bending. Note the second and third order stiffnesses are much greater for aluminium alloys than titanium alloys. That's partly why aluminium alloys see such enormous usage in aerospace; titanium is only used where you have no choice (high temperature) and it's best used for tensile applications, it's not just that titanium is harder to work with.GliderMaven (talk) 23:41, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

When talking stiffness, ultimate strength is not relevant. Quite the opposite: stiffness is the elastic deformation, plasticity is the non-elastic deformation, and buckling (breaking) is the desintegration deformment of materials. (In your link, bending and buckling are stiffness-driven the 'driven' is incorrect). When describing stiffness of a material, it is not helpful (wrong and misleading even) to describe the design process wrt strength. That is mixing up independent measurements. In this description, there is no "[design] goal", except for making correct comparisions. (You are complicating matters into off-topicness by trying to say: 'to reach similar stiffness, one has to add more material/weight' -- to a fixed geometry???). -DePiep (talk) 08:00, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

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To add this photo in the consumer products section to show a common daily use object made of titanium. No text to be added.

Math Wiz (talk) 17:39, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose It's just a comb. Commonly and cheaply made of aluminium, why would a titanium or brass one be relevant, other than to promote your images? Are you still using your Tlstrom (talk · contribs) account?

If we need domestic Ti images, use a bike frame, or something that has a specific reason to use titanium, not just fashion. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:30, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 19:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

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Please change the electron shell configuration to 2, 8, 8, 4; which is consistent with the Periodic Table of the Elements. Otraincom (talk) 03:45, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

 Electrons go into 3d before 4p Parcly Taxel 04:35, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

An omega phase in titanium or its alloys is not an inherent or naturally occurring property, as are the alpha and beta phases: it is only induced by shock-loading. http://permalink.lanl.gov/object/tr?what=info:lanl-repo/lareport/LA-UR-92-0887 Pzzp (talk) 03:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

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Added brief sentence to this section to add more base information on Titanium nitrides

"Titanium nitride (TiN) is a member of a family of refractory transition metal nitrides and exhibits properties similar to both covalent compounds including; thermodynamic stability, extreme hardness, thermal/electrical conductivity, and a high melting point.^[1]

JasonCharbonneau (talk) 17:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

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123.136.209.104 (talk) 07:06, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Note: Copyvio redacted

 Not done: A quick Google search shows that this text was copied directly from another source. Information in Wikipedia articles must be written in your own words with sources cited. Please read this page explaining Wikipedia's rules about copying and pasting text from other sources. If you have any other questions, please let me know, or ask at the Teahouse. Thanks, ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:21, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Producing titanium from TiO2 with H2 was suggested to test ny myself Kay Uwe Böhm long time ago around and works out. TiH2 heated over 1000°C fully decomposition to clean titanium and reusable hydrogen directly alloyed and rolled etc. saving.

Here how to make TiH2 out of TiO2 with hydrogen and calcium hydride over 600°C in german. https://www.spektrum.de/lexikon/chemie/titanhydrid/9283

• Titanium - J Gambogi - Mining Engineering(Colorado)(USA), 1992
• Titanium Applications--a Critical Review Kramer, K-H Sixth World Conference on Titanium. I; Cannes; France; 6-9 June 1988. pp. 521-529. 1988
• The Production of Titanium, Zirconium and Hafnium Minkler, W W; Baroch, E F Metallurgical Treatises; Beijing; China; 13-22 Nov. 1981. pp. 171-189. 1981
• Titanium Sponge by Kroll Process Rao, C S Minerals and Metals Review. Vol. 17, no. 1, pp. 25-26. Jan. 1991
• ESR for Titanium: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow - BE Paton, BI Medovar, MG Benz, RH Nafziger, LB … - … of 9th World Conference on Titanium, St. Petersburg, Russia …, 1999
• http://darwin.nap.edu/books/POD140/html

Boyer R. R. (1995). "Titanium for aerospace: Rationale and applications". Advanced Performance Materials. 2 (4): 349–368. doi:10.1007/BF00705316.

Removed statement by Highlandspring in this regard - sorry. Alloying titanium with other elemets is adequately covered in other sections; no need to get so specific, otherwise the article will never end if we discuss properties of all alloys. There are a number of alloys used in aircraft (6-6-2, 6-2-4-2, 6-2-4-6, 8-1-1, the list goes on); 6-4, or more properly 6AL-4V (Grade 5 per ASTM industrial specification) is not the only one. Unfortunately, the moniker "aircraft grade" is loose marketing verbiage used by ring and jewelry makers to impress the public. It is not used in the metallurgical / engineering community and does not belong in reference works.

6AL-4V may deserve special mention only insofar as it is, by a large margin, the most widely used alloy in aircraft production; it is consequently more readily available for non-aircraft applications.

While you will save weight cumulatively by using is titanium fasteners, exhaust, etc. it is easy to sometimes lose sight of the trees for the forest... I think it is important to emphasize that often saving weight with individual components can have interesting results. With automotive applications, using Ti for valvetrain components for instance, does much more than shave a few pounds off an automobile. Valves have a tendency to float with increasing rpms despite the springs, and the primary reason for Ti as a valve is to reduce the inertia you get with a steel valve. Substituting Ti for steel can gain enough advantage to justify the expense beyond the couple of pounds you save...

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Change "Hexagonal close-packed (HCP)" to "Hexagonal close-packed (hcp) or body centered cubic (bcc)" 173.15.20.18 (talk) 14:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:25, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, if you want to edit the infobox please make a request at Template:Infobox titanium --Danski454 (talk) 14:35, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

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Want to add example photo of the artifactual use by architect Mr Frank.O.Gehry. ちーたん2 (talk) 17:35, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please include the image you would like to use DannyS712 (talk) 17:55, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• Good idea, I've added one. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I found two sentences problematic, and the text sounded me as commercial partly.

1. "TiO2 powder is chemically inert, resists fading in sunlight, and is very opaque". "resists fading in sunlight" is not true but opposite. TiO2 is very photo-active substance. TiO2 pigment is aftertreated with aluminium and silicon compounds to prevent the fading in sunlight. If you write the sentence beginning TiO2 pigment... then it is true another possibility is to take the part (resists....)off

2. In addition to being a very important pigment, titanium dioxide is also used in sunscreens.[13] This is true, but in sunscreens, it is used micro or nano titanium dioxide.Sailamarja (talk) 15:59, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

You are encouraged to make corrections! Many of these articles are written with particular perspectives and biases, so we need experts. You comment on "it is used micro or nano titanium dioxide." Still TiO2, regardless.--Smokefoot (talk) 16:43, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

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Titanium have a very high hardness scale number meanijg it doesnt bend / stretch easily when pressure is napplied to the metal. HugoNite (talk) 10:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

That's both unsourced and inaccurate. Hardness isn't the measure of bending or stretching. Also, although 6/4 has a high hardness (it's difficult to get some bolted joints to grip), that's not the case for all common alloys. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Please add the following to the section titled "Production and fabrication" or "Applications":

"Titanium metal thin films have been grown by atomic layer deposition using TiCl₄ as the metal precursor and either hydrogen plasma or a trimethylsilyl-containing six-membered ring as the reducing agent."

References for TiCl₄ + hydrogen plasma:

“Plasma-Enhanced Atomic Layer Deposition of Ta and Ti for Interconnect Diffusion Barriers,” Rossnagel, S. M.; Sherman, A.; Turner, F. J. Vac. Sci. Technol., B 2000, 18, 2016−2020. DOI: 10.1116/1.1305809

“Growth Kinetics and Initial Stage Growth During Plasma-Enhanced Ti Atomic Layer Deposition,” Kim, H.; Rossnagel, S. M. J. Vac. Sci. Technol., A 2002, 20, 802−808. DOI: 10.1116/1.1469009

Reference for TiCl₄ + trimethylsilyl-containing six-membered ring:

“Thermal Atomic Layer Deposition of Titanium Films Using Titanium Tetrachloride and 2-Methyl-1,4-bis(trimethylsilyl)-2,5-cyclohexadiene or 1,4-Bis(trimethylsilyl)-1,4-dihydropyrazine,” Klesko, J. P.; Thrush, C. M.; Winter, C. H. Chem. Mater. 2015, 27, 4918−4921. DOI: 10.1021/acs.chemmater.5b01707 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orion4343 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. There are thousand of papers on the fabrication of Ti films of various sorts. This encyclopedia seeks sources such as textbooks, see WP:TERTIARY. --Smokefoot (talk) 02:59, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

"An unknown mechanism in plants may use titanium to stimulate the production of carbohydrates and encourage growth."

Green laser from infrared in KTP - KTiOPO4 1064 nm infrared -> 532 nm green light.

This is my version. Zgrad (talk) 15:25, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

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I would like to request the addition of the following paragraph between paragraph two and three of the Medical Applications section.

“Modern advancements in additive manufacturing techniques have increased potential for titanium use in orthopedic implant applications.1 Complex implant scaffold designs can be 3D-printed using titanium alloys, which allows for more patient-specific applications and increased implant osseointegration.2”

References listed below: 1. Harun, W. S. W., et al. "A review of powdered additive manufacturing techniques for Ti-6al-4v biomedical applications." Powder Technology 331 (2018): 74-97. 2. Trevisan, Francesco, et al. "Additive manufacturing of titanium alloys in the biomedical field: processes, properties and applications." Journal of applied biomaterials & functional materials 16.2 (2018): 57-67. HFChenault10 (talk) 04:48, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done
SSSB (talk) 11:12, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

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The alkoxides of titanium(IV), prepared by reacting TiCl4 with alcohols, are colourless compounds that convert to the dioxide on reaction with water. They are industrially useful for depositing solid TiO2 via the sol-gel process. Titanium isopropoxide is used in the synthesis of chiral organic compounds via the Sharpless epoxidation.[citation needed]

Add citation https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/sharpless-epoxidation Kenzieleigh13 (talk) 06:42, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Why?--Smokefoot (talk) 13:13, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

 Already done Gonna go ahead and close out this request as it appears Smokefoot has kindly provided a source for the section referred to by the requester. —Sirdog (talk) 22:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Reducing the High Cost Of Titanium has a clear description of the surface embrittlement "alpha case" and cracking, and how it is normally ground off and etched away by "pickling". Could add to Production and fabrication ? - Rod57 (talk) 22:04, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

After reviewing the article, I am concerned that this article does not meet the featured article criteria anymore. I have outlined some of my concerns below:

• There are multiple small paragraphs that can be merged together.
• There are multiple statements that need citations, which I have marked with citation needed templates.
• Some references use the bibliography, others state the whole source in the reference. This should be standardized.
• There is some MOS:SANDWICH concerns, especially with the infobox.

Is anyone interested in fixing this up? Z1720 (talk) 20:14, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Double sharp, thanks for citing some statements I tagged with citation needed. Are you interested in bringing this article back to FA standards? Z1720 (talk) 00:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

@Z1720: In principle yes, but I'm currently a bit busy IRL. In a month, it should be possible (I hope). Double sharp (talk) 03:06, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

@Double sharp: I'll remove this from my list of articles to nominate. Let me know when you have finished your changes and I will conduct a re-review. Z1720 (talk) 03:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Dammit, should've written this down. OK, let me bring out my sources... (not the best for this element, but should have something). Double sharp (talk) 09:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Z1720, maybe this should be sent to FAR right now. 58.239.178.90 (talk) 11:14, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I am at my limit on how many articles I can have at FAR, so it will take some weeks before I can nominate this. If you would like to create an account, you can nominate this article to FAR yourself. I am happy to help with the review process. Z1720 (talk) 14:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

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colour not color 82.41.240.151 (talk) 17:31, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: This article is written in American English, and some terms used in it are different or absent from British English and other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:45, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

The link in question is in last sentence in the first paragraph of Titanium#Aerospace_and_marine. It navigates to Titanium alloy instead of Ti-6Al-4V.

Fixing this would be a very minor change, but I'm not autoconfirmed. Also, I'd use an Edit Request template but the guidance says to propose the change first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RespiteSage (talk • contribs) 15:48, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

There are no numbers for the US in the article. Here: https://d9-wret.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/palladium/production/s3fs-public/media/files/mis-2022q1-titan.pdf it says that numbers are withheld. I came from the German Wikipedia, where there also no numbers for the US are given; instead it says "Geschäftsgeheimnis" (trade secret). Are there no estimates? And shouldn't it at least be stated in the article that the numbers for the US are withheld? The table gives 11.563 tons for 100% of the world production – and this is just false information, unless the US produces 0%. In the German Wikipedia it says at least "World Production (without the US)" --JonValkenberg (talk) 15:16, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Paragraph and associated table refer to countries, western Australia is a state. Additionally the linked term is "Australia". Deletion of the word western.

The text in question is in fifth sentence in the second paragraph of Titanium#Occurrence. The rest of the paragraph refers to Countries western Australia is a state. Deletion of the word western.

Fixing this would be a very minor change, but I'm not autoconfirmed. Also, I'd use an Edit Request template but the guidance says to propose the change first.

Note: If the author intended to refer to the unofficial geographic term or to the state, and the use of the word western is kept, the word western should begin with a capital. Change "western" to "Western".

Additionally the link "Australia" would need to be amended to navigate to "Western Australia". TheGreatPirateCbas (talk) 06:56, 22 October 2022 (UTC)