Talk:Tithe/Archive 1
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 | This is an archive of past discussions about Tithe. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 |
Extern Links
I just started looking at some of the external links. They were all dumped in at once by an anonymous user (24.236.198.191) and all seem to be anti-tithing. While everyone is entitled to their views, I don't think just giving out anti-views is a good approach to NPOV. Sorry I didn't have the time to check them all out, but can someone please look at them and do some, er, trimming? At the very least, if someone has some pro-tithing links, please add them! That way we could have two sections in the links, clearly marked as "Pro" and "Anti" (or "Con"). Thanks! —Frecklefoot 22:31, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- This thread is quite old but all of the links in this section are very much opposed to the practice of tithing. Although it may be useful to include POV links in an article in an attempt to show the source of controversy, it seems like we are unbalanced here. I can add a link to the LDS Church teachings on tithing, since it is practiced, but that can cause its own problems. Anyone care? If not, I think we should just delete the links. billlund 02:54, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
Removed dead links. --Jimbabwean 22:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
More on Tithe vs. Taxes
I want to thank DJ Clayworth and Frecklefoot for their help in tidying up my contribution. I had wanted to put the two NT quotes (Matt 23:23 and Lk 11:42) in two columns opposite each other, but I couldn't get it to work -- it it even possible in Wikipedia??? Assistance and advice is always welcome. Regarding the external links: I just left what the original contributor had written, eg. England and Ireland, and his links. I didn't feel comfortable just whacking them. I didn't check them out, but I share your view that if they are too obviously slanted, they probably should be cut out entirely. Were it my article alone, I never would have included them. About the Taxes: in Mesopotamia, they were simply that, "Taxes." My argument in the text is that, set against voluntary contributions, "taxes" makes good sense. I know they went to support the Levites, which is different from the situation in Abraham's homeland. In the original Mesopotamian -- taxes. In the Hebrew situation -- O.K. something like tax-like. Thanks again. 217.88.116.139 18:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)Chuck Eypper217.88.116.139 18:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC) Bear in mind that the temples throughout the ancient Near East could levy taxes as well as the central government!
Cut the Melchizedek episode?
This long historical background on Melchizedek in the middle of the Tithe page seems inappropriate. I'm not sure who originally created this section, but if they're watching this page, I hope they'll voluntarily reduce it and/or move it to the Melchizedek page. Most of the information is already included on the Melchizedek wiki page, and a simple link to it should suffice. The other information regarding Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is appropriate and should remain here. I've only been using Wikipedia for a few days, so I'm not sure how this suggestion will be taken, or if it will even be noticed. Funhistory 19:08, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. After reading the episode I don't see how it figures into the concept of tithing directly. (I'm changing my tune from an earlier posting after having read the episode more carefully.) billlund 13:05, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
- The anonymous author of this section added something similar to the article in "Melchizdek," which in the mean time has been deleted. Further, the salient points seem to be covered by other sections of the whole article, with more substantiation. I deleted this section as being redundant. billlund 22:46, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
My question is why you're citing to Christian scripture in a section about the Old Testament. Why aren't you citing to Jewish classics like Midrash? 4.249.63.218 (talk) 12:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Tithing in the Hebrew Bible
Seems to me that discussion of the Hebrew practice of tithing should mention Deuteronomy 14 and 26, which seem to indicate that the tithe was only given to the Levites every third year. I'm not a Hebrew Bible scholar, but it would be helpful to have some comment on this. Atterlep 18:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
[Responce to above question: There are three tithes in the Bible. The first tithe went directly to the levites that lived in the local community. The second tithe (collected on years 1, 2, 4, 5 of the sabbatical cycle) was taken to Jerusalem to be eaten there. The third tithe (collected years 3 and 6 of the sabbatical cycle) was given to the poor and widows who lived in the local community.
These practices are clearly explained and defined in the Talmud in various tractates. The main tractates would be tractate Ma'aseroth and tractate Ma'aser Sheni. - Brak]
"finished produce
This term isn't defined in the article. The definition is in Mishnah Peah: "when the pile is smoothed over." Incidentally, this occurs after the poor have been allowed to take the corners of the field, the produce they can eat while they work on it, the gleanings, the poor clusters and single grapes of vines, and part of tree crops like olives, figs, and dates. That is in addition to the poor tithe of years 1, 2, 4, and 5. All of this is in Peah. This article doesn't use enough sources directed to Jewish practice to be really good 4.249.63.218 (talk) 12:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- There has been some discussion about a section where the tithing practices of different religions, denominations and sects would be described. The section 'Tithing in the Bible' mentions the tithing beliefs of two groups
- Word of Faith
- LDS
- Should these two references be moved to a new section 'Tithing Practices' or 'Current Tithing Beliefs and Practices'?
- Also, the statement 'Despite the widespread preaching of the tithe in many christian churches, very few church members actually consistently contribute 10% or more' is not documented. It should be backed up with link to statistics or removed.
- Also the statement, '(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being one possible exception, as members are not considered as being in full fellowship if they do not pay an honest or full tithe)' is not true and I am going to change it. Any suggestions? Hoquiam72 03:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the tithe is used to maintain the institution of the church and control the flock through fear.
Remove?
I propose removal of the section Ancient Near East. The section is marked WP:OR since two years, and the scribbler haven't provided any valid secondary source yet. Next agreeing passerby: please remove! Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 15:41, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Six months later, some sourced and some deleted as appropriate. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:37, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
First ever Tithe map on Wiki commons
The National Library of Wales have released a high resolution version of the 1840's Newport tithe map to Commons. Perhaps it would be good to include the map/or part of the map in this article. See the full map and high res sections. Thanks Jason.nlw (talk) 16:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Ireland
The reference to Henry David Thoreau really doesn't belong here -- or anywhere else in this article. It explains the principle of conscientious objecting, but that isn't what the article is about even though it mentions such objections to tithing. Thoreau's objections were not to tithing and he did not make them in Ireland, so I suggest removing the reference.
The God of Yesterday's Tithe Still the Same Today?
Of course God never changes. But no matter which side you take about tithe and offerings - the form, function, or purpose of the tithe has changed in some way. Can both sides be right about how the tithe has changed, or has one side changed/not changed God's laws to fit what they want? It seems there is a majority of agreement that the tithe changed after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. So, what differentiating factors do you believe effected our function of the tithe today - the law, His chosen people, his character, our needs, culture, His priesthood, government? Jbbaab44 21:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Article or sermon?
Overall, a good article. However, it reads more like a Christian sermon or dissertation on the subject of tithing rather than an encyclopedia article. You should stick strictly to the subject of tithing in history and how it has been applied by the church in history, and refrain from Biblical interpretation. Your statement that, "It is therefore a much better interpretation, both similar to circumcision and the observation of the Sabbath, that the practise of tithing (that is compulsory giving of 10% of ones income) is no longer applicable to the New Testament church. Instead church members are encouraged "to give as the Lord has prospered (them)” [I Corinthians 16:2], and "every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” [II Corinthians 9:7]." is definitely Biblical exegesis and is not suitable for an encyclopedia article, IMO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin Scott Marcus (talk • contribs) 20:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I do hope this will be taken care of. I came as a scholar and a person of faith, and yet this article bothered me, as it seemed preachy and did not have good, reliable references on various points of view. Even the use of "we" in relation to Jesus implies that the author is writing about how we SHOULD relate to Christianity, and I - as a Christian - cannot tolerate that in an encyclopedia article. Unfortunately, I am not an expert in this topic area. I do know when I'm reading a well-referenced encyclopedia article and when I'm reading a sermon or bible study material, though. (Note "bible study" is not the same as "biblical study," and this article as currently written is the former, not the latter.)
- If you could state what exactly your objection is, and discuss more particularly the material you object to, perhaps the discussion that follows would either eliminate your concerns or result in the elimination of the material you object to. For now, just generalized statements such as "it reads more like a Christian sermon or dissertation on the subject of tithing rather than an encyclopedia article." and this article...seemed preachy." and even "I do know when I'm reading a well-referenced encyclopedia article and when I'm reading a sermon or bible study material." and that it is more biblical study rather than bible study quality. From such nondescriptive statements, I fail to see exactly what it is that's being objected to. However, if you explain a bit better, citing specific areas of concern, perhaps we can do something about either the concerns or the content. As it is, the objections at this point seem so vague as to eliminate any possibility of discussing your concerns further and fixing or attempting to fix whatever it is you feel needs to be fixed. So, please try to be a little more specific. That way, other editors watching this article (including me) may have a better idea about how to resolve the specifically stated problems you bring to our attention. I look forward to being able to help any way I can, but in order for me to do so, you will have to be more specific about which particular parts of the article merit each of the criticisms you mentioned. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 22:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Extensive re-write needed
Or maybe take a blunt axe to about half of it. The whole article's full of WP:WEASEL words, and contains a great deal of POV commentary and unreferenced assertions on the rights and wrongs of tithing in Christian churches. The intro also contained the shockingly arrogant assertion that tithing is a mainly Christian practice, supported by a complete lack of reference to tithing in other religions. I've made a start on cleaning up the sections on tithing in Judaism and Christianity, but a great deal more work remains. I've also added short sections on tithing in Islam and Sikhism. A section on tithing in Hinduism should also be added, as well as expansion of modern tithing practices in Judaism. Per Ardua (talk) 11:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- A good start. I haven't read all your changes, but a quick skim-read looks most promising. Thanks. I have reverted just one edit, that had merged the 'notes' (inline citations) from 'references'. Wikipedia seems to have a variety of naming conventions, but keeping these two section separate seems to be common across them all. I intend to do a quick refinement of one of them in a few minutes. Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Points not yet made
In all my years of hearing the doctrine of tithing taught in churches and seminary. I have never heard the passages from Deut 14 included! There, in summary, it is clear that the tithe is for the people --- not the clergy -- to be enjoyed as a celebration meal. In fact the chapter concludes that one should take the tithe and buy a steak and bottle of wine (or strong drink)....
This impression that the tithe is for the people is further reinforced with Mal 2:1 And now, O priests, this command is for you. Where we see that the division of Malachi is chapter one for the people, with chapter two through 4 for the priests. This then illustrates that the benchmark prooftext of Mal 3:10 "Bring all the tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house" further illustrates that the tithe is for the enjoyment of the people, and we see the prophet chastising the priests.
In short, if churches that want to teach tithing would provide the "steak and bottle of wine" celebration meal as part of worship they would have far fewer attendance problems -- WB --Wbrannon (talk) 12:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)