Talk:Tower of Babel/Archive 2

a myth is delivered by word of mouth, without getting too technical, this is a legend.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.99.223 (talk • contribs) aka User:Lostubes

No, that's not right. See Myth and Legend. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Different wording should be used. The word myth generally implies "definitely false." Different wording should be used so people don't think that there's no way the event happened. Primal Groudon (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Wrong, see main article Myth. "Myths are often endorsed by rulers and priests or priestesses, and are closely linked to religion or spirituality.^[1] In fact, many societies group their myths, legends and history together, considering myths and legends to be true accounts of their remote past.^[1][2][3][4] In particular, creation myths take place in a primordial age when the world had not achieved its later form.^[1][5][6] Other myths explain how a society's customs, institutions and taboos were established and sanctified.^[1][6] There is a complex relationship between recital of myths and enactment of rituals." Dimadick (talk) 11:04, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

There's a category page template, "Mythology note" that also addresses this misconception about what the word myth means in a scholarly context:

Categorising a story as a myth does not necessarily imply that it is untrue. Religion and mythology differ, but have overlapping aspects. Many English speakers understand the terms "myth" and "mythology" to mean fictitious or imaginary. However, according to many dictionary definitions, these terms can also mean a traditional story or narrative that embodies the belief or beliefs of a group of people, and this Wikipedia category should be understood in this sense only. The use of these terms in this category does not imply that any story so categorized is historically true or false or that any belief so embodied is itself either true or false.

I added the template to the "Myth of origins" category this article is listed in. Egsan Bacon (talk) 03:34, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

What 'The word myth generally implies "definitely false."' means is when people hear 'myth," they usually think of "untrue," because the word "myth" has several definitions and the most famous definition is "falsehood." Primal Groudon (talk) 00:02, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

That's not the scholarly definition, though, nor is it the first one. If anyone has a misconception about what the word means, the goal should be to inform them, not to give in to the misunderstanding. This is an encyclopedia, after all. Egsan Bacon (talk) 15:01, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of our well-reasoned opinions, as editors, our opinions don't matter. If reliable authoritative sources call it a legend, then so must WP. If sources call it a myth, then so must WP. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 00:14, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@Primal Groudon: I suggest you go and argue for the deletion of Christian mythology and Jewish mythology then. If you can do that then come back here and let us know. Doug Weller talk 14:18, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Oops, you can't fix a ping, but thanks. ou have to star over. @Primal Groudon: Doug Weller talk 14:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Is it really necessary when there's already Biblical and Mythological places categories it can fit into? A problem with having this here is that it sets a precedent that every mythological article should now be added to its respective fictional category. Like adding Yggdrasil, Zaqqum, etc to Category:Fictional trees for example. Removing it would be less of a hassle than doing the same for every single mythology page which would take ages, when an easier alternative would be to add (as an example) the mythical trees category to the fictional trees category or simply sticking with using the two already suitable categories I mentioned first (although if a bot can be set up, then by all means). Also, the fictional towers category only has three pages and one sub-category which is mostly full of redirects leading back to one article. -- BraveNewWorld21 (talk) 05:19, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "fictional towers" even means as a category. "Fiction" is a literary genre and while it is possible to read the Bible in the context of such a genre, it is also far from the only one it fits into (note that we do not have a category for Category:Poetic towers). jps (talk) 18:50, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

One would say the false Gods existed just before the flood so we could say those aren't myths however that has no evidence however the Tower does have evidence http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141505 Logawinner (talk) 19:32, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Israelnationalnews.com does not seem to be a particularly reliable source for this contention. jps (talk) 19:55, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

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Under Comparable Myths, change Africa to Botswana because there is only one comparable myth in Africa, and it refers to people living near Lake Ngami, Botswana. The rest of the section uses specific countries or cultures, so it is inconsistent to just use Africa instead of the country where the comparable myth comes from. H1212K (talk) 16:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done Good point. Thanks! --bonadea contributions talk 17:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

There is no science that proves that the Tower or Babel being the beginning of language, is a myth. There is no science that proves that the Bible is a myth.

The intro statement to this article: "This article is about the Biblical myth" is not neutral and is false until scientifically proven otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:C920:9880:806F:2E46:963C:E026 (talk) 15:42, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

The intro talks about origin myths and has several citations. – Thjarkur (talk) 15:44, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

We call a traditional story a myth when it's demonstrably false or when it seems fantastical and we have no reason to believe its truth.

For an assertion X, the idea that there's an obligation to produce science showing that there is no science to support X before we say "There is no science to support X" is a absurdity. If there's no science, there's no science.

There is no science to support the truth of the Babel story. We do not need to show science showing the absence of science to support the truth of the Babel story before we can say "There is no science to support the truth of the Babel story," i.e., before we can identify the Babel story as a myth. Largoplazo (talk) 15:58, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Science can't prove a negative in any case. (And we do have plenty of science to show what the origins of various languages are and that they have nothing to do with any confusion of tongues :-) ) --bonadea contributions talk 16:43, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

It's quite obvious to anyone with a brain that the Tower of Babel story in Genesis 11 is simply written out of order, and it gives a specific narrative relating to the division of languages. That is, the Tower of Babel happened before the overarching theme of the spreading out of nations described in Genesis 10. The division of the Bible into chapters is a late addition and has nothing to do with chronological order of events. Please remove all references to a possible "contradiction" from this article; it's embarrassing for the Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:54C8:EC00:E47F:34CD:8375:DF3D (talk) 21:26, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

WP follows sources, not editors' opinions, however "obvious". If WP:Reliable sources are presented here that support this, then the article will (indeed must) be changed accordingly. Lacking that, no change can be expected. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 22:25, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

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The subheading 'Biblical Account' under 'Confusion of Tongues' states that a contradiction exists between Genesis 10:5 and 11:1, but the reference [37] given explicitly states the opposite. Removal of subheading? 2600:1702:35F0:B980:65C5:4C94:403:E0F6 (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

I see your point. But we don't have to make the same mistake as the author of that source and say there's no conflict: There's a difference between explaining an apparent conflict and there not being a conflict. (The same author writes that the Sabbatarians have no evidence for their view of the historicity of the Sabbath, when, yes, they do have evidence, despite the author's offer of counterevidence. The author conflates "I've countered your evidence" with "you have no evidence".)

I guess we could put "apparent" in front of "contradiction", but then it would also make sense to amplify the section by explaining here the manner in which this apparent contradiction is explained (and this source isn't the only provider of this explanation). Largoplazo (talk) 11:33, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. edit requests are intended to correct obvious errors and not for larger discussion. Looking into the text and the source given, it is apparent that Largoplazo is correct and more than this simple change is needed. I will start a separate discussion below. I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:24, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Although I closed the edit request above without changes, the anonymous editor above and Largoplazo both have good points above. This section could stand some improvement. Firstly, having a two-sentence subsection makes no sense. There is no good reason to separate the biblical account and the interpretation of that account if phrasing that account takes such a short statement. Secondly, the source given is an article on a Christian apologist web site that explains away the apparent contradiction and should not be used to support the statement that a contradiction exists. The source is also of doubtful reliability for the reasons Largoplazo gives above. Akrasia25 apparently added this reference in a good-faith effort to replace and earlier citation needed tag but a better source should be found.

I therefore propose the following change:

Confusion of tongues

This page is about the origin myth. For the film, see The Confusion of Tongues.

[[File:Confusion of Tongues.png|thumb|''The Confusion of Tongues'' by [[Gustave Doré]], a [[woodcut]] depicting the Tower of Babel]]

The confusion of tongues (confusio linguarum) is the origin myth for the fragmentation of human languages described in the Genesis 11:1–9, as a result of the construction of the Tower of Babel. Prior to this event, humanity was stated to speak a single language. The preceding Genesis 10:5 states that the decedents of Japheth dispersed "with their own tongues," creating an apparent contradiction. Scholars have been debating or explaining this apparent contradiction for centuries.^[1]

During the Middle Ages, the Hebrew language was widely considered the language used by God to address Adam in Paradise, and by Adam as lawgiver (the Adamic language) by various Jewish, Christian, and Muslim scholastics. ...

Please comment below on this proposed change. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:02, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Well I do agree that the currently-cited source doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as the source is trying to argue against what's found in the Wikipedia article. Not to mention that the source itself really isn't the best source to begin with.

Though I do agree with what the anonymous editors said above: there's obviously no contradiction in the biblical account. Genesis 10 is a genealogy, not part of the narrative. The narrative skips from Genesis 9 directly to Genesis 11 without stating how much time or how many generations had passed, though it does state that the people were "of one tongue", thus indicating that it occurred before the sons of Japheth dispersed "according to his tongue".

I likewise don't agree with the use of the phrase "origin myth", as it's not clear that the confusion of tongues even is "myth" (as opposed to legend or history). The Bible presents it as history. Seeing as Wikipedia isn't the place for opinion or speculation, the article's wording certainly shouldn't favor a mythic interpretation over a historical one.

Regarding the suggested edit, I'd change the wording a little (the passive voice sounds awkward and a little confusing). How about: "[. . .] The text (Genesis 11:1) states that humanity spoke a single language prior to the confusion of tongues. Some^[who?] take this verse to be in contradiction with the preceding chapter, Genesis 10:5, which states that the descendants of Japheth each dispersed with their own tongues. Scholars have been debating or explaining this apparent contradiction for centuries. [. . .]".

Second, have scholars actually debated this "apparent contradiction" for centuries? I don't have access to the cited Louth book, but is that what the book says or is that your paraphrase? I am aware that religious scholars have commented upon (and debated) the book of Genesis for centuries, but I'm not aware that people have historically seen a contradiction in these two verses. 2601:49:C301:D810:656C:8D1A:AA16:EA40 (talk) 14:42, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

"Origin myth" is not the issue here. That a "confusion of tongues" is not historical or factual is not a matter of opinion or speculation, and Wikipedia can't propose that a provably mythical or fictional story could be factual. --bonadea contributions talk 15:01, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

We know much more today about the origins of the Hebrews, of language (and its developments throughout history), of humans and other animals, of the Earth, Solar System and universe, than was ever possible then, so yes there is a lot of evidence against it. "Myth" is also consistent with a traditional narrative of a people. —PaleoNeonate – 11:48, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

You said it better than I did, @PaleoNeonate:. It frankly astonishes me that there are people who believe that the account could possibly be historical – this article talk page is the only place I have ever encountered that particular delusion, tbh. --bonadea contributions talk 18:50, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I had the University pull the chapter of Louth that covers this source and yes it has been debated for centuries. The book pulls together original writings of ancient Christian apologists for various topics in Genesis. The contradiction is debated by Augustine of Hippo who explains that maybe it was a jump forward and jump back in the story ("without mentioning it"). So sloppy editing in Genesis.

Augustine writes,

"Without a doubt this contradicts the words used above 'according to their tribes and tongues' For, each single tribe that had formed individual nations would not be said to have had its own tongue when there was a common one for all"..."--Akrasia25 (talk) 16:33, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

What gets me is that, since the same text tells us that the text was dictated to Moses by God, proponents of this explanation implicitly accept that God is a sloppy story teller. Largoplazo (talk) 18:38, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to read the above as a positive talk page consensus for the change I proposed. The only objection I see is to the "for centuries" formulation and Akrasia25 has verfied my source. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:56, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

In case I didn't say so before, it works for me. Thanks for pursuing this. Largoplazo (talk) 18:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Me too, That Louth book seems to have a lot of good stuff in it. People have been trying to figure out what the editor was doing for centuries--Akrasia25 (talk) 19:14, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

is defined as moving toward the east (not from it, as this article presents) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nosetwitcher (talk • contribs) 15:24, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

You're right, and it's silly to explain the word anyway: it's an ordinary word in everyday language. The Genesis passage says "eastward", so I left that in the article and removed the parenthetical. Largoplazo (talk) 16:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

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change:

Biblical narrative

¹ And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
² And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
³ And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
⁴ And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
⁵ And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
⁶ And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
⁷ Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
⁸ So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

⁹ Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

— Genesis 11:1–9^[1]

to

   <

Biblical narrative-

Genesis 11:1-9 [Life Application Study Bible (New International Version)]

1. Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
2. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
3. They said to eachother, "Come let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used bricks instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
4. Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth.
5. But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.
6. The Lord said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so that they will not understand each other."
8. So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
9. That is why it was called Babel - because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth

Add the following source as a reference:

Life Application Study Bible 2005 (New International Version) Tyndale House Publishers, Inc, Wheaton, IL

Note for those considering implimentation of this edit:

This source was developed after widespread agreement on the need for a new translation of the bible in contemporary English.
The source (and all publications of "(New International Version)") is a version that has been revised by an international team of scholars.
They were from many denominations to help safeguard the translation from sectarian bias. Nayt86 (talk) 16:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. There is no preferred translation for bible quotes and there is no significant difference in meaning between the two passages. The only difference in comprehension is substitution of "tar" for "slime". Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

References

1. [1]

   Genesis 11:1–9 KJV

I am thinking whether Hanging Gardens could be counted or not Can you please tell? Kohcohf (talk) 15:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Counted as what? Largoplazo (talk) 18:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

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Replace Biblical myth with Biblical story DualOpAmp (talk) 14:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

N Not done and not likely to be done: Please read the page more closely. It does not say "biblical myth" it says "origin myth". An origin myth is a story told to explain some feature of society or the natural world, which is a well-supported description of the Tower of Babel story. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

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this article states, “ Biblical scholars see the Book of Genesis as mythological and not as a historical account of events.” This is not true! To be sure, SOME Biblical scholars hold this view, but there are many many more who indeed DO believe the Bible is a reliable historical account. This line should read, “Some Biblical scholars see the Book of Genesis...” 2601:246:CF00:10:4CC3:F10F:891E:D809 (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:44, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Here are several articles from scholars that would hold differing views from the one presented. Not "all" Biblical scholars hold a mythological view. Updating it to say "some" actually clarifies that this is still a debated topic among scholars. ^{[1] [2][3]} Lgramling (talk) 02:02, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Fundamentalists like Answers in Genesis are not debating anything. However firmly and genuinely held their beliefs are, they are engaged in proselytizing and justification, not anything that remotely resembles scholarly debate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:25, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

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Why are all the religious stories referred to as "origin myths"? "Myth" implies that they are untrue and Greek myths and Roman myths are very different from actual religions. For stories of a religious nature, why not use "origin story"? change "origin myths" to "origin story" in all religious mentions. 40.133.164.27 (talk) 20:40, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Origin myth is the term used by scholars to describe stories such as this, which are present in all world cultures. Roman and Greek myth were most certainly part of well-defined religions. Wikipedia is written from a neutral point-of-view and does not endorse any religious groups self-views on their canon. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:11, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Just pointing out, the very terminology isn't exactly "neutral". It was more or less coined by academics in "religious studies", and reflects only their jargon and opinion. But if every relevant scholar's opinion were considered, there'd be no consensus with regard to terminology nor with regard to whether or not these stories ought to be classed as "myths". The reason that there is a consensus, is because you're arbitrarily favouring the majority opinion of one particular subset of scholars: those who work in academia in the field of "religious studies". The opinions of other relevant scholars, such as those who work outside of academia or those who specialize in "Christian theology" (rather than "religious studies") are ignored or rejected upfront. But in doing so, you basically throw out all contrary opinion. It's expected that scholars of "religious studies" would agree that these stories are myths, because one of the main tenets of their discipline is to treat all the religions as if they were on equal footing. Without this tenet though, there's a wider range of opinion. If Christianity is not on the same footing as the other religions, then there's no need to place the Christian stories in the same category as the "myths".

(Coincidentally, this is why the field of "religious studies" is overwhelmingly dominated by atheists, agnostics, non-religious, and religious liberals. The field's very background assumptions are at odds with orthodox Christianity from the get go, so most orthodox and conservative Christians would rather not waste their time. And many of them have no intention of becoming career academics, but study "theology" only in preparation for their religious work. But the few who do seek academic careers within in field of "religious studies" are in the minority among a vast non-Christian majority.)

But besides all this, I am not even sure that the term "myth" is clearly defined. Some orthodox Christians would have little to no problem classing these stories as "myth", but they would have a problem classifying these stories as "mere myth", "non-historical myth", or even in the same class of myth as all the other myths. 2601:49:C301:D810:1033:DC37:F8FD:61F2 (talk) 21:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

The current wording of the first paragraph of the "Confusion of tongues" section seems to indicate that there is no scholarly consensus on the resolution of the apparent contradiction in Genesis 10:5 and Genesis 11:1-8. However, the cited reference, as far as I can tell from the previous sections of this talk page (not having access to the reference myself), just mentions a church father who explained this apparent contradiction as that the story in Genesis 11 jumps back in time after the genealogy in chapter 10 which encompasses several generations, similar to how a history textbook might give a summary of a certain era in history before sharing specific stories from within that era.

Moreover, citing from some sources I do own:

"Most commentators agree that the difficulty occurs because the two episodes are not arranged in chronological order (see Mathews 1996, 428). From a chronological perspective, Gen 10:1–32 should come after Gen 11:1–9. There is general agreement that the Table of Nations was placed before the Tower of Babel account for literary or thematic reasons." (Mangum, D., Custis, M., & Widder, W. (2012). Genesis 1–11 (Ge 10:1–32). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.)

Furthermore, "The different languages of verse 5 probably look forward to the time after the tower of Babel (11:1–9)." (MacDonald, W. (1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary: Old and New Testaments. (A. Farstad, Ed.) (p. 45). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.)

And, "The dispersion of the nations “according to . . . language” (v. 5) took place after Babel (ch. 11) all along these coasts as well as elsewhere." (Constable, T. (2003). Tom Constable’s Expository Notes on the Bible (Ge 10:1). Galaxie Software.)

I suggest replacing the last sentence of that first paragraph with, "However, most scholars agree that the two chapters are not arranged in chronological order." (unless counter examples of reputable sources mentioning this as a contradiction can be found, in which case the two positions should be explained). — Preceding unsigned comment added by KhanGressman (talk • contribs) 05:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

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CHANGE: migrating eastward TO: migrating westward--Carrie9833 (talk) 03:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC) Carrie9833 (talk) 03:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Genesis 11:2. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 14:05, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

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Edit for valid facts. ME21234 (talk) 10:09, 22 January 2021 (UTC) The Tower of Babel (Hebrew: מִגְדַּל בָּבֶל‎‎, Migdal Bavel) narrative in Genesis 11:1–9. They decided to build a tower which was to reach to heaven, to make them equal to G‑d, and at the same time, to make it possible for them to stay together. This symbol of their divine strength, as they thought, was to be built in the valley of the Land of Shinear:

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:28, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

when it was removed the first time I didn’t replace it because I realised it was unsourced. Tonight I saw that a sourced version had been removed by an IP. I’ve restored that but we need to enlarge on it with a new section on it. 21:08, 19 November 2017 (UTC) Doug Weller talk 21:08, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

"Confusion of tongues", where you posted also, should probably be linked in the lede in conjunction with this idea.

It may not be optimal to link origin myth in the first sentence since, although the tower of Babel story can certainly be classified as an origin myth, I wonder if this might not be its most essential aspect. Consider the comparative mythology section, giving some similar stories about towers which aren't necessarily origin myths. And consider that confusion of tongues is an important aspect of the story but perhaps not provably its sole purpose or meaning. For example the section on midrashic interpretation doesn't talk about language. For this reason the first sentence should probably be more basic and descriptive.

I very much agree. "The Tower of Babel... is an origin myth meant to explain why the world's peoples speak different languages" is the current first sentence. This trivializes the whole article, denying any religious, theological, or philosphical content of the story. CSMR (talk) 22:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

User:eggishorn you undid my edit here. This was not a unilateral change but discussed here and now "Confusion of tongues" has it's own section along the lines of the comment below by User:Groupuscule. However if you want to disucuss this before changing please do so. Are there any arguments in favour of the original sentence "The Tower of Babel... is an origin myth meant to explain why the world's peoples speak different languages"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CSMR (talk • contribs) 09:04, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

That being said I agree that it would be interesting and worthwhile to develop the concept of "origin myth" in the context of this article. Mr. Weller, do you have a sense of what sources would usefully expound upon that topic? groupuscule (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

To me, the Tower of Babel is a part of the larger episode of the Genesis 11 narrative, and looking at the size of this article, I really think this should have a narrower focus. I.e., what is the Tower of Babel according to religious tradition and modern historical assessment? I think it's fine to mention that it is a part of the etiological myth about language, but I really think the tower itself should be the focus of this article, and the "confusion of tongues" have its own as well. Cgill1138 (talk) 13:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

'The Estonian myth of "the Cooking of Languages"[46] has also been compared.'

I assume that "Kohl, Reisen in die 'Ostseeprovinzen, ii. 251–255" refers to "Die Deutsch-Russischen Ostseeprovinzen, oder Natur- und Völkerleben in Kur-, Liv- und Esthland". Would someone be able to locate a more precise reference, to better explain this sentence? A cursory glance of pages 251-255 of an online copy of this text [[http://solo.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/permalink/f/89vilt/oxfaleph014158040 ]] does not reveal a direct reference to Babel. However, I have not checked further within the text; nor can I find a second volume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.76.8.92 (talk) 09:39, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

"Biblical scholars see the Book of Genesis as mythological and not as a historical account of events" implies that people who believe in the historicity of the Book of Genesis cannot, by definition, be scholars. This is obviously false. The sentence also contributes no apparent value to the article. I suggest it be removed. If there is compelling reason to keep it, then add the word "Some" at the beginning. –Blue Hoopy Frood ^(talk) 21:28, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

"Some" would make the sentence very misleading indeed. --bonadea contributions talk 21:35, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

An alternative could be: "The Book of Genesis is mythological and not a historical account of events" in the spirit of WP:YESPOV. Adding "Some" would erroneously pretend that only some consider it as such. "Most" may be appropriate, or "Modern biblical scholars", etc... Among those alternatives, the existing sentence may already be the best compromise. —PaleoNeonate – 06:29, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think "Most" would be appropriate here, since the view that Genesis is a historical account is a fringe view held by a tiny minority of scholars (if any). --bonadea contributions talk 08:03, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

As belief in its historicity would require someone to defend the historicity of characters like Abraham and Joseph, is there anyone other than a hardcore believer in Biblical literalism that actually supports this? Dimadick (talk) 16:14, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

No because I believe it is real and so do most Christians and here is proof http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141505. Most scholars aren't scholars because they have to read the whole Bible. For example In Jonah's story it says sea monster not whale so proving that wrong proved nothing wrong with the Bible some animals like the Leviathan which there is no evidence for or against other than a random creator from a voyage to the bottom of the Marrianna Trench saw a disk shaped object and from fear and disbelief didn't say anything about it afterwards. You must look for evidence that is real evidence before you say things. Prove all things the Bible when it comes to the Bible prove it. Do not state something you can't prove. I proved this can you prove that? No you can only disprove yourself. Logawinner (talk) 19:40, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

What I see in the Israel National News article is a discussion of a structure that, the article says, might not even have been a tower, yet somehow they know that it was the Tower of Babel? Did they find a sign in ancient Babylonian reading "Welcome to the Tower of Babel"? The part about Nebuchadnezzar II tells us, at most, that that Nebuchadnezzar II believed it had been real. It isn't evidence that it had been, no more than Renaissance paintings of the tower are. Largoplazo (talk) 20:00, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

As my edits show, I am in favor of "some". The reference cited does not indicate that all biblical scholars see the book of Genesis as mythological, only that Levenson thinks it is silly to think otherwise. Readingwords (talk) 06:30, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

But "some" means that it is not even a majority view, which would be misleading to the point of outright deception. As discussed above, "most" would not be appropriate either – it would be like saying "most scholars of geology believe that the world is round". Wikipedia does not pander to extreme fringe views. --bonadea contributions talk 10:08, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

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Change “myth” to “account”. Tru2Him (talk) 14:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Please seek consensus for a change like this before requesting an edit. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:19, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

This edit request to Tower of Babel has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "myth" to "story". The current language discriminates against the Christian community. 2600:1702:7A0:8C20:CC07:1EB3:B4:FCE9 (talk) 12:14, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: See discussions and answers above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)