Talk:Transgender/Archive 12

This edit request to Transgender has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add this to Transgender#Transgender: The term "trans*" (with an asterisk) emerged in the 1990s as an inclusive term used to encompass a wide range of non-cisgender identities. The asterisk serves as a wildcard, indicating the inclusion of various identities beyond just transgender and transsexual, such as gender-fluid or agender. The use of the asterisk in "trans*" has been debated, either arguing that it adds unnecessary complexity or that enhances inclusivity by explicitly recognizing non-normative gender identities.

Sources to use (since they are many, only use the most reliable and highly reputable ones):

1. Steinmetz, Katy (2018-04-03). "The OED Just Added the Word 'Trans*.' Here's What It Means". TIME. Retrieved 2024-12-05.
2. "Why We Used Trans* and Why We Don't Anymore -". transstudent.org. Retrieved 2024-12-05.
3. "Why do you include an asterisk in Trans*? » The Safe Zone Project". The Safe Zone Project. Retrieved 2024-12-05.
4. Middleton, Josh (2014-07-16). "QUEERSTIONS: What Does it Mean When There is an Asterisk After the Word "Trans?"". Philadelphia Magazine. Retrieved 2024-12-05.
5. "What does the asterisk in "trans*" stand for? - ❤ It's Pronounced Metrosexual". It's Pronounced Metrosexual. Retrieved 2024-12-05.
6. Levenson, Claire (2018-10-15). "Transition des jeunes trans*, quand science et militants divergent". Slate.fr (in French). Retrieved 2024-12-05.
7. Prieur, Cha (2019-12-16). "Les violences envers les personnes trans* à l'université. Des conséquences sur la santé mentale aux pistes pour s'en sortir". Genre, sexualité & société (in French) (22). doi:10.4000/gss.5726. ISSN 2104-3736.
8. Delage, Pauline; Lieber, Marylène; Chetcuti-Osorovitz, Natacha (2019-07-18). "Lutter contre les violences de genre. Des mouvements féministes à leur institutionnalisation:Introduction". Cahiers du Genre (in French). 66 (1): 5–16. doi:10.3917/cdge.066.0005. ISSN 1298-6046.
9. Iazzetti, Brume Dezembro (2022-01-01). "Políticas institucionais voltadas à população trans* no ensino superior brasileiro e alguns de seus limites e desafios". Cultura, Política, Sexualidade e Gênero na América Latina.
10. Guerrero McManus, Siobhan (2024). "Los estudios trans en México". Inter disciplina (in Spanish). 12 (32): 11–24. doi:10.22201/ceiich.24485705e.2024.32.86915. ISSN 2448-5705.
11. Radi, Blas (2020). Epistemología del asterisco: una introducción sinuosa a la epistemología trans. Universidad Nacional de Rosario. ISBN 978-987-702-385-5.
12. JONES, Nash. Bridging the gap-trans*: What does the asterisk mean and why is it used. PDX Q Center, 2013.
13. Garvin, P. (2019). What’s the asterisk in “trans*” mean and why do some find it offensive?”. The LGBTQ+ Experiment, 18.
14. Lewis, Nancy M. (2019-01-01). "Open to Possibilities: Gender Variability and the Importance of the Asterisk". Resources for Gender and Women's Studies: A Feminist Review. 40 (1): 7–8.
15. Tompkins, Avery (2014-05-01). "Asterisk". TSQ: Transgender Studies Quarterly. 1 (1–2): 26–27. doi:10.1215/23289252-2399497. ISSN 2328-9252. LIrala (talk) 02:17, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Hey @LIrala,

Could you choose some of the best sources and add them as inline citations?

If you don't get to it, I can, but you may be more familiar with the source material.

Thanks!

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 05:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@JuxtaposedJacob I think 1, 11, 15, and 14 are the best sources and should be there. I guess that's a reasonable number and they cover what the sentences are saying. LIrala (talk) 05:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I could not read number 11 (foreign language) or 14 (limited access), but after changing the paragraph headings, etc. for more logical flow (diff) and adding bullets to the relevant paragraph (diff), I made your edit, with the following modifications:

-converted quotation marks to italics

-added clause about the transgender umbrella after agender to clarify how trans* includes other identities under the transgender umbrella

-clarified summary of argument over use of the term

-I read the sources and added them as inline citations where I though they fit best.

-serves as -> represents, because I think that wildcard has a specific meaning (could be wrong) in computer searches, as referenced by source number 15

If you disagree with any of my choices, or want to add more information/make more changes to the article, please feel free to continue recommending them here! This was a great recommendation!

P.S., in the future, you can add inline citations by surrounding your citation template with ref tags like this <ref>{{cite web}}</ref>, but that may have been too much work on a talk page. However, regardless, if you want to recommend any future changes, I would ask that you just put which sources you are referencing, like this:

"User:JuxtaposedJacob is the greatest" [1]

[1]: The truest book

just so it is known which sources you want to use.

Again, thanks! Have a good day.

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 05:43, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that all. Yup, that's perfect cause I have problems sometimes with syntax or grammar. And here's an open PDF for 11: https://notablesdelaciencia.conicet.gov.ar/bitstream/handle/11336/143541/CONICET_Digital_Nro.632f17dd-d63f-4e3e-89dc-46a7306a31c9_A.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y LIrala (talk) 05:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks also to @Malvoliox for removing the quotation marks; I neglected to do that.

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 22:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Already done User:JuxtaposedJacob completed the request The AP (talk) 12:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

This edit request to Transgender has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Under the section Transgender § Coming out, I'd like to update:

For some, this decision can be because of stigma, lack of knowledge (by whom?) or fear of rejection by friends and family.

to:

For some, this decision can be because of stigma, lack of knowledge from the people they're coming out to, or fear of rejection by friends and family.

Proposed edit summary: "/* Coming out */ Clarify fears of coming out" - BlankEclair (talk) 12:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The cited article reads Stigma, lack of knowledge and fear of rejection by family and peers often keep transgender people from coming out as children or teens. Sometimes a transgender person will come out as gay, lesbian, or bisexual before recognizing their gender identity or coming out as their true gender. I interpret "lack of knowledge" to mean ignorance a young possibly-trans person may have about either their identity, or about trans topics, which keeps them from recognizing or acting on their trans-ness. I don't think a change here is needed; we should stick to the source. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 12:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I haven't interpreted it that way (personally, I am afraid to come out due to society's general lack of knowledge of transness, but WP:NOR). Marking as answered as I agree with you there (I tried looking for a citation for my claim, and I haven't found it, so maybe it's not as common as I had assumed?). BlankEclair (talk) 12:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I believe that would fall under "fear of rejection". To support this I would say friends, family, or society. I think the fact that transphobia pressures trans people to stay closeted is pretty WP:SKYISBLUE but I would still recommend finding a source. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 13:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Eh, personally, it's not from fear of rejection, but from a lack of awareness (e.g. while I don't think my friends are hostile towards trans people, one of them telling me to 'get The Surgery™' does not inspire confidence).

As for appending society to fear of rejection, I couldn't find a source that directly said that society is a factor, but perhaps we can state something like "[...] fear of rejection by friends and family.^[1] Additionally, trans people commonly face discrimination within society,^[2][3] which can affect their decision to come out" with these citations?

• "'Transgender people face casual discrimination up to 60 times a day'". Amnesty International. 29 March 2017. Archived from the original on 29 December 2024. Retrieved 16 January 2025.
• "Groundbreaking Report Reflects Persistent Discrimination Against Transgender Community". GLAAD. 4 February 2011. Archived from the original on 3 August 2011. Retrieved 16 January 2025.

Also, if we're not specifying "lack of knowledge", perhaps we can use {{Who|January 2025}} instead of using "(by whom?)" in the text?

- BlankEclair (talk) 02:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I support the change. It makes the sentence clear and removes and annoying tag. Parsing the sentence as written in the RS could support either interpretation, but I feel that the one by the nom (lack of other people's knowledge and understanding) has a stronger basis in the text and seems supported by other, related material cited in the article. From a grammar nazi side of things (my default mode), the sentence has problems because commas matter; either a comma or an 'and' is missing. If the list was (1) stigma, (2) lack of [personal] knowledge, and (3) fear of rejection, there would have been a comma after knowledge. If the author meant (1) stigma and (2) lack of knowledge/fear of rejection by others, there should have been an 'and' after "stigma,". The part that breaks the grammatical tie might be that any decision to come out implies that the person understands that there is something to come out from. If the lack of knowledge was lack of personal awareness of one's own transgender identity, the whole sentence falls apart. Why would a person be worried over stigma or fear the rejection of others if they have no idea that they have a different gender identity? That said, if this is the only RS we have, any interpretation might qualify as OR. If that is the consensus, I would suggest immediately changing the incorrect (by whom) to ^{[by whom?]}. Cheers, Bitten Peach (talk) 14:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I personally interpreted it as lack of awareness or visibility (or acceptance, based in the awareness vs acceptance debate in #AA community) but I can see how ambiguous the currently cited sentence is. I wouldn't doubt there are more clearer sources claiming this establishedly consistent. LIrala (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Today, I saw a hatnote added by Steel1943 that this article used bare URLS that need cleanup. I went through the ~300-400 sources in the combined reflist and sourcelist and found and corrected 2, replaced some primary sources with secondary sources, reformatted some references, and added a couple URLS to existing refs along the way.

I'm wondering if there was some other reason for this note or other concern that needs to be addressed. I know this article uses a mix of citation styles, and see that MOS recommends consistency within an article; adjusting that style could be a larger project for this page. Still, as far as I can tell, they are all pretty complete in their bibliographic information. Am I missing something?

~Malvoliox (talk | contribs) 17:33, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I only tagged the page since I saw a bare URL in a reference with the URL being "https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/37406/1/9783839430200.pdf#page=64". That was the whole reason why I tagged the page; I wasn't able to fix the reference automatically since, like most URLs pointing towards a PDF file, the reference URL could not be fixed automatically with tools. Steel1943 (talk) 18:27, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

Gotcha, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I fixed the issue. ~Malvoliox (talk | contribs) 19:04, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

Hey @Malvoliox,

The citations thing was a project of mine. I was converting everything to efn/harvnb based on Tamzin's advice. It was hard to remain interested in converting all the citations, so I kinda stopped. Additionally, with sub-references being added, the change should become moot.

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 22:03, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

Is there any way that the first sentence of the head can be altered slightly? Got jumpscared by "A transgender (" before realizing what it said - the phrase "a transgender" is not generally considered correct - https://libguides.pratt.edu/c.php?g=1278195&p=9456567 as a source - and as a personal anecdote, I've experienced such wording in the form of hate speech in the past. The sentence is technically fine right now, but it causes confusion in the way I just described. Froglegseternal (talk) 12:37, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

@Froglegseternal  Done How does it look now? JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 20:10, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

A lot better, thank you! Froglegseternal (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

I just noticed that Portal:Transgender no longer exists. Why was it deleted? Zoozoor (talk) 22:17, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

See the discussion here: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transgender (2nd nomination) Funcrunch (talk) 22:21, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you Zoozoor (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

→Healthcare, Mental Health states: "Autism is more common in people who are gender dysphoric. It is not known whether there is a biological basis. This may be due to the fact that people on the autism spectrum are less concerned with societal disapproval, and feel less fear or inhibition about coming out as trans than others." Only one source is linked, and there is a better source needed request, here is my contribution for additional sources. (The secondary source from the Transmitter cites both of the first two sources).

I also think the paragraph should also be rewritten. "Autism is more common in people who are..." seems like odd phrasing (like it implies one is caused by the other?). I suggest something along the lines of:

"An increasing number of studies show a correlation between individuals who experience gender dysphoria and those on the autism spectrum. Many theories on why this happens have been suggested, though none are officially supported due to limited research. Currently, there is no evidence to support a biological cause for the correlation. One suggested explanation is that many autistic individuals are resistant to social conditioning, and thus have less resistance to the possibility of being and/or coming out as trans. Additionally, there is some discussion about weakened sex differences in autistic individuals playing a role in the correlation."

Sources:

Walsh, R. J., Krabbendam, L., Dewinter, J., & Begeer, S. (2018). Brief Report: Gender Identity Differences in Autistic Adults: Associations with Perceptual and Socio-cognitive Profiles. Journal of autism and developmental disorders, 48(12), 4070–4078. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10803-018-3702-y PubMED: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30062396/

Warrier, V., Greenberg, D. M., Weir, E., Buckingham, C., Smith, P., Lai, M. C., Allison, C., & Baron-Cohen, S. (2020). Elevated rates of autism, other neurodevelopmental and psychiatric diagnoses, and autistic traits in transgender and gender-diverse individuals. Nature communications, 11(1), 3959. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-020-17794-1 PubMED: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32770077/

Here is a secondary source: https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/

Additionally: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeseq/2025/04/04/a-lifeline-for-native-and-rural-communities-is-under-threat-heres-why-that-matters/

Wattel, L. L., Walsh, R. J., & Krabbendam, L. (2024). Theories on the Link Between Autism Spectrum Conditions and Trans Gender Modality: a Systematic Review. Review journal of autism and developmental disorders, 11(2), 275–295. https://doi.org/10.1007/s40489-022-00338-2 PubMED: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38803560/

-

Note(s): I do not know much about autistic individuals and "weakened sex differences" but it was briefly included in my final linked source, so I also included it for consistency. Also, I'm newer to Wikipedia, so not 100% sure how to do the template/formatting for an edit request. Input on the actual suggestion and on how to improve edit requests would be appreciated. EM 1NH3 (talk) 09:35, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Quick response, the Forbes link isn't a reliable source, the author is a "brand contributor Doug Weller talk 06:59, 22 April 2025 (UTC)