Talk:Tree/Archive 2

Studies have shown that trees contribute as much as 27% of the appraised land value in certain markets and cite the following^[1] which can be extrapolated with care.

These most likely use diameter measured at breast height, 4.5 feet (140 cm) above ground, not the larger base diameter. A general model for any year and diameter is Value = 17.27939*(diameter^2)*1.022^(year-1985) assuming 2.2% inflation per year.^[3] The right side of this equation is written to paste into Excel or Google to perform the calculation. Extrapolations from any model can vary widely, so value estimates for diameters larger than 30 inches (760 mm) may have to be capped so trees do not exceed 27% of total appraised land value.

Replying to give thread a timestamp so it will be cleaned up. Mark Marathon (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

At present we have in this article ; A tree is a perennial woody plant. and then later we have Tree-like plants include some palms which are not trees but herbaceous with two references supporting the statement. Leaving aside that one reference is a pruning guide, the other, more reliable reference actually says tree. A perennial, generally greater than four meters tall, that tends to have a woody trunk and a well defined canopy. However, in palms the trunk has no true wood and lacks branches. I have a number of references to both European trees and New Zealand Trees which include palms, and in the case of the New Zealand texts , include Tree ferns.. I suspect that there is an academic point here in the definition of Wood and its subsequent extension to Woody . I am a botanist and I spend my retirement working as a volunteer at a University botanic garden. Although the experts there were not all in agreement about the precise definition of a tree, all agreed that they encompass Palms Perhaps the best definition there was that A tree is any plant that grows more than about 6 metres that boys can climb. Now none of this stands muster as a reference, but I do suspect that in looking for academic purity we are at risk of loosing sight of what the general public across the globe would reasonably understand a tree to be. I personally understand the word Woody to mean wood or material that behaves much like wood, rather than the precise botanical definition of wood. I suspect thatt if we could reach agreement on the definition of a tree, we might prevent some of the more rancorous exchanges over the last few weeks.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   23:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I think you are correct to explore this. In my view "tree" is not a precise botanical term, but a general one, based on general morphology. Somewhere else on this page User EauOo referred to the tree form being a strategy, and if such an approach is used as a definition, then whether the plant concerned is formed of wood or not is beside the point. To state that something is not a tree because it is herbaceous is placing a narrow construct around what constitutes a tree, a construct which is not shared by the general population, who of course refer to palms as "palm trees". PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Excluding palms is commonly done by botanists, though I certainly agree that it is not ordinary usage. Also agree that tree ferns warrant their name, although boys probably don't often climb them (girls might perhaps be more adept). Some sources are this definition from Beentje, H.; Williamson, J. (2010). The Kew Plant Glossary: an Illustrated Dictionary of Plant Terms. Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew: Kew Publishing. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Perennial wood plant with secondary thickening, with a clear main trunk. (The distinction between tree and shrub is fluid, but generally accepted to be dependent on the single trunk, and on height, a tree being at least 2–3 m tall.)

and this site which explains primary and secondary xylem.

Perhaps we could line up more than one definition, something like what is done on the fruit page (though that page is not an example of fine polishing)? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 01:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with PaleCloudedWhite that the common sense of "tree" is broader than woody plants. It's worth mentioning the narrower definition in the article, but if it doesn't at least mention tree ferns and palm trees, it will be confusing. To add to the confusion of following a wood-based definition, there are probably Dracaenas that have more lignin in their (anomalous) secondary growth that many cycads.--Curtis Clark (talk) 03:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

So I've written a draft (don't know much about Dracaena), good-faith edits or comments welcome. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:36, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

While I agree that the article needs to address the broader definitions of trees, I think the way it is done now is confusing and leading to contradictions within the article.

For example, we have the introduction noting that by some definitions trees include things like palms (and by extension bananas, tree ferns and club-mosses) which have a tree growth form and are commonly called "trees". We then move on to start the next section with an illustration of lycophyte, labelled as a tree. So far so good. But we then go on to state that trees are exclusively seed plants, and that they all have woody tissue. At this stage the article starts seriously contradicting itself, and anyone attempting to use this article to understand what a tree is, is going to be very confused.

The article certainly needs to address the multiple definitions of trees, but it also needs to be very clear exactly what definition is being used at all times. If it doesn't do that, it ends up contradicting itself and becoming inaccurate.

I can see two solutions to this:

1) We straighten it out in the lead. Something like "Although various definitions of tree may include......, this article is only about the botanical definition of trees, which is as follows.....". I personally don't like this because, as you can see from the talk section below, the lead section becomes messy and confusing to some readers when we try to to include all definitions straight out the gate.

2) We have a new section on "Definition" immediately following the lead." This is what the Plant article has done, and it works quite well IMO. Here we can lay out all the possible different usages with histories and explanations of where and why they are used. If they can produce a usable article on something as ill-defined as a plant, I'm sure we can do so for trees. But at the end we still need to clearly state "the rest of this article is only using definition X".

My 2c. Mark Marathon (talk) 23:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a great problem with your version 2 as far as dealing with the definition in a separate section near to the head of the article. However, I am firmly convinced that the article itself must deal with the full compass of the definition and not be restricted to what I suspect you mean by "the rest of this article is only using definition X". . I believe that we may need separate sections for the major tree types, but they should certainly all be there.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   23:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree completely, and have made a start to that end.Mark Marathon (talk) 03:28, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I've copyedited what's been done so far, though my botany knowledge isn't adequate to comment on the strictly botanical aspects, so I'll leave that to others. I'm short of time at the moment so can't write much. On a general point all I advise is that all contributors make changes to the article slowly and incrementally, so that all involved editors have chance to assess and comment, so that the article development proceeds collaboratively; hopefully then that will avoid any rancour and accompanying sense of paralysis. I think it's excellent that editors are discussing changes before making them. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:16, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I've restored "In botany, a tree is..". We need to make it clear that this article is about the botanical subject, as opposed to trees in taxonomy, or genealogy, or cluster analysis or database design or any of the other common usages of the word tree. A tree is an inherently botanical topic. Mark Marathon (talk) 09:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

If I look at the sections of this article I find that the ones that carry more load are, or should be "Parts and function", "Evolutionary history" and "Ecology" (in fact I have some doubts about ecology). Probably most of the important thinks to be said about trees can be included in these three sections. The easier seems to start with "Parts and function".--Auró (talk) 23:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The first thing I see is that this section includes two different aspects, that may be could be split, no that it is imperative, but lets consider the advantages of doing it. Parts makes reference to structure or anatomy, and function to physiology. Here we are not in the lead section, and therefore can afford to be a little more scientific. To have the description of the structure separated from the physiology has some advantages, the more important being that it is easier to explain the working of the system as a whole. So my proposal is to proceed to split this section into two

• Structure

• Physiology

--Auró (talk) 23:35, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I oppose this idea. I can't see how structure and function (or more precisely anatomy and physiology) of trees can be separated. The two are intimately intertwined. I can't see, for example, how we can discuss the anatomy of the leaf without discussing photosynthesis or translocation in some detail. Without reference to physiology, the anatomy of a leaf seems to be restricted to "some are flat, some are needles, most are green". Similarly, I can't see how you can discuss the physiology of reproduction without any reference to flower or fruit anatomy. There's a good reason why freshman botany texts encompass anatomy and physiology in one large volume.Mark Marathon (talk) 00:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Is a tree more complicated than a human being? I think that if human anatomy and human physiology are even separated disciplines, segregating both for tree should not be that difficult. Said that, I also recognize that doing it the other way is perfectly possible, and maybe it is a question of preference. I would prefer to split it, but as now is integrated, we can work as it is.--Auró (talk) 22:29, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The problem I see isn't t a tree is more complicated than a human being, it s that it is much simpler, in the sense of being modular, and they aren't a taxonomic group so they don't share much anatomy. Human anatomy consists of information like "The heart lies centrally is a solid, muscular organ that lies centrally in the chest cavity", "The hand contains 27 bones" and so forth. Because trees are modular, all we can really say (that is specifically relevant to trees) is that the trunk is rigid and that leaves are found on the upper part of the tree. To make it relevant to readers, it seems necessary to go into the physiology of the tree: why is the trunk rigid and why are the leaves on the upper part of the tree?

Strangely I am with MM on this one but from a different perspective. This article is Tree and not Plant and thus only deals in any detail with those aspects of plant that are peculiar or exclusive to trees - all the rest is covered in outline only. I would suggest that although there are striking structural differences between trees and, for example, herbaceous plants, they are not too demanding to describe and the changes to physiology that such structural changes require (or the other way round if you prefer) are best described in the context of structure.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   22:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

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Will you please add a <!-- hidden note --> in the "superlative tree" section alerting any editors that there is a redirect at [[Tallest tree]] targeting that section so that if they change the section heading they know to change the redirect target? Thanks. 67.164.156.42 (talk) 08:36, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Done Benign, minor edit only. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:49, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Will you change "sycamore" under the ecology section to "sycamore maple"? The given latin name (Acer pseudoplatanus) refers to this tree, not a true sycamore whose latin name is Platanus occidentalis. The same error occurs in the image directly to the right of this. The linked article refers to Acer pseudoplatanus as "sycamore" but is the only article I have ever read to drop the "maple" from the name. Here is a link to the USDA plant profile for the tree and the wikipedia page for the tree: http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ACPS , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_pseudoplatanus. I suspect that this is a common name in Britain, but I feel referring to it as "sycamore maple" will bring further clarification to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nlholback (talk • contribs) 16:39, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I have moved the part devoted to the symbiotic relationship between roots and fungi. This is a general concept that applies to most trees, and should come first than the special descriptions, now located at the end of the section. This last part is quite interesting and useful, but I propose to simplify it a little, as it now has an extension that is about 40% of the whole section. Probably a 20% would be more adequate. --Auró (talk) 23:10, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd like for this to be added: The quaking aspen often grows multiple trunks from the same root system. The oldest living thing on earth is believed to be a quaking aspen grove/root system in Utah -various sources including books — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jachoox (talk • contribs) 07:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

There is a sound Wikipedia practice that considers lead sections should be simple, and its content be elaborated having in mind more this purpose than scientific reasoning; considering what, I propose to change the first paragraph of the article in this way:

"A tree is a woody plant, usually with a single trunk taller than about two meters, a root system that anchors it to soil, and a branch system that supports its leaves, flowers and fruits."

I would like to participate in the improvement of this article, mainly by rearranging its lay-out, and as a consequence simplifying it, but I mean to proceed step by step.--Auró (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that the definition of "tree" has more than one circumscription; the current wording of the lead addresses that fact, whereas your proposal does not. Although the lead could be reworded to be simpler to read, the simplification as proposed above would be unsatisfactory in that it ignores the multiple definitions of "tree". PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 17:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I think that making it simpler to read would be very positive. Also see that my change proposal is only for the first paragraph.-Auró (talk) 21:56, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with PaleCloudedWhite that it would be a disservice to readers to, in effect, state at the beginning of the article that there is one true definition of a tree and anything they might be hearing to the contrary in class or in other reference material is wrong. The multiple definitions are very important and need to be right at the beginning. I agree that the lead is too long, but that would be better addressed by breaking off a section, but not by breaking off a section for the divergent opinions. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:27, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

This is really just a continuation of the definition discussion above. And while I agree that we shouldn't say that any verifiable definitions are wrong, I also don't think that we should clutter the lead with the literally dozens of possible definitions. I suggest that, just for the lead, we use the broadest reputable definition that we can find. A definition that encompasses all the others. Something like "A tree is a plant with the leaves(or other photosynthetic organs) held clear of the ground by the trunk". That would be true regardless of what specific definition you want to use. We can then note that there are multiple alternative definitions that narrow down what is and is not a tree, and then go on to expand on those definitions in a "Definition" section. But for the lead, I really do agree that devoting hundreds of words to competing definitions is unnecessary and doesn't really help people who just want to know whether this is the article they are looking for.Mark Marathon (talk) 00:10, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think that many of the readers of this page will be students who want to trip up their teachers. See Illustration. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't get it. Of course it's not a tree. With a total height of less than 3 inches, the "leaves" are not held clear of the ground in any conceivable sense, whether by a trunk or any other mechanism.Mark Marathon (talk) 00:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, at least you understand that height needs to be part of the definition. How these leaves are not held clear of the ground is beyond my understanding. I wish you'd leave this article alone. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 11:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I think that the important point is to have a good article about trees. Maybe if we concentrate on that, then it will be easier to come with a good lead section. So my proposal is to go and try to improve the article structure.--Auró (talk) 23:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, I've rewritten the lead with broadest definition I can find. Ive also added a definition section. It's surprising, looking around, just how ill-defined "tree" is. The FAO, for example, defines bamboo as a tree. Many university forestry/botany departments and journals are happy to define bananas or papayas as trees, and don't even blink at the use of the term "herbaceous tree" for these plants. This makes the task of trying to work the definition into the lead even less appealing. I've tried to reflect the diversity of definitions into the definition section, starting with various reputable sources stating outright that no botanical definition exists. It still needs material added, for example ATM there is no definition that excludes vines.

Unless anyone thinks we should remove all this and call the FAO and University definitions wrong, we now have to make a decision on how to proceed. We can go through the whole article and change it to reflect the broader definition, or we can pick a definition and state unambiguously that this is the definition we are using for the rest of the article. In terms of producing a quality article, I prefer the former. In terms of being lazy, I prefer the latter.Mark Marathon (talk) 03:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Agree the lead section should be short, and preferably contain both the definition of what is a tree (possible multiple definitions if relevant) each with a proper source of that definition. Personally I know of only one, the botanical definition: "A tree is a woody plant, with a single trunk taller than about two meters". That it has a root system that anchors it to soil, and a branch system that supports its leaves, flowers and fruits etc. is part of the description rather than the definition. No proper source for my definition. Shrubes and wines are not trees because they dont' have a single trunk taller than about 2 meters. Palms, Cycads, Tree Ferns and Bamboo are not trees because they don't contain wood (with Lignin). Primary problem with this stringent botanical definition is of course that many "trees" can grow as both trees or shrubs depending on soil and climate, oak is a good example of this. It can grow to a 45m single-trunk tree with no branches at all below 30m, and it can grow as a less than 2m tall shrub when growing in wind-swept sandy soil near the sea. --Honymand (talk) 17:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

"Personally I know of only one, the botanical definition: "A tree is a woody plant, with a single trunk taller than about two meters"."

So is a papaya, a coconut or a mallee a tree? Because plenty of botanists consider them to be trees.

"Shrubes and wines are not trees because they don't have a single trunk taller than about 2 meters."

What about lianas. They have single, woody stems up to 80 metres. So why are they not trees? Or what about Banyans? They don't have a single trunk taller than 2 meters. Does that mean they are not trees? Or how about vine trees? They start life as a vine, and gradually become self supporting trees over a period of decades. Does that mean that they are not trees? Or do they only become trees when after decades of producing seeds?

"Palms, Cycads, Tree Ferns and Bamboo are not trees because they don't contain wood (with Lignin)."

As the references show, many eminent botanists and foresters disagree.Mark Marathon (talk) 09:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I am well-versed in trees. How about this: " There is no definitive definition of a tree because many trees are small and can be considered shrubs. However a tree can be identified by leaves or needles that grow on a branch that grows on an established trunk made of wood.

Trees have two main categories: evergreen and deciduous, Evergreens are very tolerant of cold weather and do not lose their leaves or "needles" every year. Deciduous trees grow leaves in the spring and lose the in the fall creating a natural beauty and great photography oppurunities" Also: Trees tend to be long-lived,[1] some reaching several thousand years old. The tallest known specimen on Earth is a California Redwood at 115.6 m (379 ft) and they have a theoretical maximum height of 130 m (426 ft). California redwoods or (Sequoia Sempervirens) are interesting because no specimen has been known die of old age.[2] Trees have been in existence on the Earth for 370 million years. I believe this wood make a good intro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jachoox (talk • contribs) 06:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I also believe that a small section about bonsai would do well in such a broad article. Bonsai is an art originating in Japan. It is growing trees but pruning and shaping them to be very small. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jachoox (talk • contribs) 07:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

"There is no definitive definition of a tree because many trees are small and can be considered shrubs."

The size is only one tiny part of the reason for there being no agreed definition. Bananas, tree ferns and bamboo for example, would never be considered shrubs, yet they are not trees under many definitions.

"However a tree can be identified by leaves or needles that grow on a branch..."

So a Saguaro is never a tree no matter how large it gets until it grows its first branch, and then it becomes a tree overnight? And Jacksonia scoparia is never a tree, even when it grows to over 7 metres in height, because it lacks both leaves and needles? And while a cane palm is a tree, the much larger coconut palms are not trees, because they lack branches? It seems that there is much more to identifying a tree than just branches and leaves.

"... that grows on an established trunk made of wood..."

So a palm is not a tree, and a papaya is not a tree?

"Trees have two main categories: evergreen and deciduous"

That's certainly one possible categorisation, but certainly not the main one. What about hardwoods and softwoods? Or tropical and temperate? Or microphyl, mesophyll, notophyll etc? Why are those not also "main" categories?

"Evergreens are very tolerant of cold weather and do not lose their leaves or "needles" every year."

Many evergreens do indeed lose their leaves about once a year on average. The only difference is that they don't do so simultaeously.

"Deciduous trees grow leaves in the spring and lose the in the fall..."

What about drought deciduous trees, that lose their leaves in spring, and regrow them at the onset of the wet season in early winter? Aren't they also deciduous?

"... creating a natural beauty and great photography oppurunities""

How about creating an unsightly mess, a fire hazard and a refuge for vermin? Aren't those just as important?

"I also believe that a small section about bonsai would do well in such a broad article. Bonsai is an art originating in Japan. It is growing trees but pruning and shaping them to be very small."

But if a bonsai is a tree, then why is a rose not also a tree?Mark Marathon (talk) 09:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It would be difficult to make a simple intro to an article that is about such an ambiguous word. What about concentrating on the "trees" everyone agrees on, and then add the ones that could be counted as trees according to some definitions, like bananas, palm trees, bamboos, etc?

My personal tree conundrum is the dwarf birch. To me it is primarily a birch, and hence a tree. The fact that it rarely gets taller than 50cm is secondary. But that is just my take. Other people are bound to have other opinions. Mlewan (talk) 11:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem with that approach is twofold. Firstly, we are essentially just defining a tree as "What we are pointing at when we say that is a tree". That doesn't really help anyone who wants to know what a tree is, or even just wants to know what the article is about. I can't see how we can start an article with "A tree is one of these things that we all agree to be trees". The second problem is deciding which are the trees that everyone agrees on. I assume you mean things like oaks and eucalypts, but the problem is that there are plenty of oaks and eucalypts that most people wouldn't consider to be trees. Defining "trees that everyone agrees on" is going to be even more difficult than defining tree.Mark Marathon (talk)

Isn't a tree just a tree, in botany and not in botany? I mean, I'm no botanist, but I know what a tree is. So does my 5 year old nephew. Then again, he could have a degree that I am unaware of. I will get back to you on that for sure, but I am still pretty positive he's just a kid. 50.82.40.97 (talk) 12:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe and maybe not. Life was never meant to be that simple. It all stems from the lack of any widely accepted definition of a tree. To try and help (?!) some botanists have defined a tree as having (amongst many other things) woody tissue. Wood also has a precise botanical definition which means that, taking these two definitions together, Palm trees and Tree ferns (as examples) would not be classified by these botanical definitions as trees. And then on the obverse we might have debates about Bonsai "trees" that are only 6" tall. Hopefully your nephew will have finished his PhD on "the definitions of Trees" by now and can provide much needed edification.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   17:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I am pointing out to the ridiculous notion of opening up the page with "In botany...", as if a tree were some hard to understand concept only encountered in the depths of highly learned botanical discussion. It's a very common word that is learned at a very early age, so get into the botanical issues later on in the article but open with generalities. 50.82.40.97 (talk) 01:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

What you are apparently unaware of is that tree is also a commonly used word in database design, in genealogy, in couture, in cladistics and in numerous other fields. There is nothing ridiculous about the notion of opening up the page with "In botany...", because we are indeed talking about what the word tree means in botany, not what it means in database design, genealogy, couture, cladistics or any other field. Mark Marathon (talk) 07:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the definition is even very good. "a tree is a plant with an elongated stem, or trunk, supporting leaves or branches". I could say a sunflower has an elongated stem, but it ain't a tree. 86.160.218.148 (talk) 02:25, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Then perhaps you could contribute by explaining to us why it isn't a tree, while papayas and bonsais are trees. When you've completed that exercise, I suspect that you will understandthe reasons why there is no single satisfactory definition of a tree.Mark Marathon (talk) 07:05, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

It is obvious to anyone that isn't a tree. If you don't understand that then you have no business lecturing others. 86.167.124.229 (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Nothing is obvious in an encyclopedia. That is what encyclopedias are for, to define and catalog knowledge. If it is obvious to you, as you say, then perhaps you can explain it in writing here to improve on, or come up with a suitable definition. -- Alexf^(talk) 11:52, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I can certainly come up with something better than the existing, but I can't be bothered arguing against people who think a sunflower is a tree, especially when they adopt such a patronising attitude. "... explaining to us ... completed that exercise ..." ... who do you think you are? A schoolteacher talking to a pupil? 86.167.124.229 (talk) 13:01, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Please explain then. As per your "who do you think you are" comment, please remember that when you come here you are expected to check your attitude at the door. Being antagonistic and accusatory will not get you far. -- Alexf^(talk) 13:10, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Tell that to User:Mark Marathon. 86.167.124.229 (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Basically I just did, as he's reading this and I am sure he is already aware of them. The rules of Wikipedia apply to everyone, editors and admins alike. Let's abide by them. Cheers. -- Alexf^(talk) 13:28, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

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I have found that the image of elm, ash and sycamore seeds in the 'tree' article is incorrect. It says the last seed is Sycamore, but it is Sycamore Maple. The real Sycamore is Platanus occidentalis. You have the seeds of Acer pseudoplatanus, which is latin for false sycamore maple. I strongly suggest that you either change the image or the captions so they suit each other. Thank you. Box2529 (talk) 00:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. Although our article on Acer pseudoplatanus indicates the tree is sometimes called simply "sycamore", that usage is confusing. I have changed it to read "sycamore maple", which should be unambiguous. Rivertorch (talk) 00:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

To a certain extent. I think "sycamore maple" is principally a North American term. In England Acer pseudoplatanus is indeed just known as "sycamore". In Scotland it's known as "plane", so Scots are ill-served either way. Common names can be a bit of a minefield and I'd avoid them where there's ambiguity, but if they're going to be used, it's possible "sycamore maple" is the least worst option. At least the scientific names are there as well. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:47, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Another possibility would be to just use the Latin names in the caption. Thoughts? Rivertorch (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

That would seem sensible were it not for the fact that I notice all the other picture captions have common names first followed by scientific names within brackets (or parentheses in AmEng), so for consistency we'd probably have to change them all..... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's no perfect solution, I guess. As I see it, an unfamiliar name is better than an ambiguous one, and the scientific name is linked for anyone who wants to see what it is. We could include multiple common names, but not without cluttering up the caption to a significant degree. Rivertorch (talk) 07:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You're quite right. It's simplest in my view just to get rid of all the common names. I'm always aware that common names versus scientific names can arouse a certain amount of passion, so I try not to push too hard where it's not crucial. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:13, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Bgwhite, I copied and pasted the text straight from the bonsai article. To give myself a base to work out a good summary. Wiki policy states don't just duplicate content across articles. I left out the ref as I didn't believe a reasonable person would question the meaning of the word Bonsai. So I have reverted your edit. ?oygul (talk) 02:11, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

?oygul, you can copy between articles as long as its attributed, but it is discourage. In any case, I now understand why you did it and it is ok. Could you add a ref for the paragraph as every paragraph should have a ref. Also for next time, please add an edit summary so people are not left guessing. Bgwhite (talk) 04:37, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Bgwhite, Actually text only needs a ref, for content that a reasonable person might contest. WP:V I'll take on board to clearly summarize on all my edits when removing text. ?oygul (talk) 13:28, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I've removed this because the reference doesn't support the statement. The statement was that "In cool temperate regions, conifers predominate, and the climax community is moist taiga forest". However the reference simply says that trees are the climax vegetation of taiga. It never says that taiga is the dominant community in all or even most cool temperate areas. Of course if you look at the Wikipedia articles on tundra, steppe or temperate rainforest it should be clear that conifers are not the predominant trees in cool temperate regions and that the "climax" community of many cool temperate regions lack trees altogether. I think we need to be very careful of two things with our references. Firstly, that they reflect the whole world, not jut the USA. Secondly, and as a result of failing at this, that we don't conclude that all black birds are crows. I think what has happened here is that we have assumed that since taiga dominates cool temperate areas in the US, and since taiga is a tree-dominated climax community, we can therefore conclude that all cool temperate areas are tree dominated. Of course that's not logical, it's not true and it's OR. While taiga is indeed a tree dominated climax community in a cool temperate area, that doesn't support a claim that the climax vegetation of all cool temperate areas are taiga and that therefore all cool temperate areas tree dominated. All crows are birds, and all crows are black. That doesn't mean that all black birds are crows. Mark Marathon (talk) 08:15, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Indeed not; taiga is not the only vegetation in the far north, but it is very widespread across both N. America and Eurasia, covering millions of square miles. If the claim went slightly wide, let's try again now: as you correctly say, trees are indeed the climax vegetation of taiga, just as they are of rainforest and others. I'll have another try with the additional references, feel free to tweak the wording slightly to ensure the claims are no stronger than they should be. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:20, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The statement that trees are the climax vegetation wherever climate permits has been unreferenced for 18 months. As such I think we have a duty to remove it. It's certainly not ureasonable to remove it. The reference that recently was added to support the claim (http://www.macaulay.ac.uk/soilquality/Moorland%20Succession.pdf ) never makes any such claim. In fact it only uses the word tree twice: once where it notes that trees increase in late succession on some Scottish moorlands and once to say "look at a graph.". Neither of these statements comes close to saying that trees are the climax veg type even on Scottish moorlands, much less everywhere on the planet that climate permits.Mark Marathon (talk) 07:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Er, it talks about forest, which covers major types of climatic climax but certainly not all of them (think of saltmarsh, desert...). "Climax Community". Encyclopedia of Earth. Retrieved 28 June 2014. states that "Some examples of generally recognized climax community, which have achieved stability or equilibrium over a period of hundreds of thousands of years, and in some cases millions of years:

Sonoran Desert, USA and northern Mexico Daintree Rainforest, Queensland, Australia Namib Desert, Namibia and southwestern Angola Mixed podocarp/broadleaf forest, Rakiura Island Ttemperate forests, Ulva Island, New Zealand"

which is sufficient warrant for saying that forests made of trees, whether podocarp or broadleaf, can form climax communities.

For conifers, Nelson, Rob. "The Taiga". Retrieved 28 June 2014. states that "This biome is defined mainly by the trees that compose it. The climax trees are furs, spruces and pines. Subclimax plant communities may have deciduous trees like larch, tamarack and birch." which is warrant for saying that trees form the main part of coniferous climax forest. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:09, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I have that PDF open, and I can't see the word "forest" anywhere. A search using Adobe Acrobat Reader also does not return any instance of "forest". Apparently I am missing something. Can you tell me what page the word "forest" appears on so I can confirm?

Weird. However I've already quoted it above, complete with both 'trees' and 'climax', so it's readily verifiable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

As for a claim that forests can form climax communities in some very small areas such as the Daintree or the Rakiura Islands, I don't think anybody would have a problem with that so long as a RS explicitly says that. This is very, very different from the deleted claim that trees are the climax veg type wherever cliamte permits. However we will need to note that the concept of climax is pretty much discredited by ecologists, as per the Wikipedia article on the subject and in keeping with WP:fringe. Issues with taiga reference I have discussed below.Mark Marathon (talk) 08:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Well we're getting somewhere. There is no :fringe about this; very few ecologists would agree with the old view that climax communities are perfectly stable for ever (did anyone ever really believe that, I wonder), but many continue to talk about climax in a more relaxed way, and in much of the world, North and South, in between the saltings and the mountains, left to itself for even a few years, tree cover is what you rapidly get. (Anyone who has ever volunteered on a nature reserve can vouch for the fact, though that sort of knowledge is a little hard to cite.) The article still doesn't quite say that, but it's a bit better. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:50, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, you're probably right. It's not worth cluttering the article up with these distinctions. I'm happy enough with it as it stands. Good job. Mark Marathon (talk) 09:00, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:09, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

This edit request to Tree has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The URL http://www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogeler/Travel/Portugal/cork-article2.htm should be changed to http://people.uwec.edu/ivogeler/Travel/Portugal/cork-article2.htm We are in the process of re-designing our current website and moving a lot of pages to new domain names, this one included. If you could change this link that would be wonderful as the other one will soon die. 137.28.95.7 (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Done 02:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The overview section still needs a lot of work before this reaches GA status. The biggest problem is that much of it contradicts the material already given in the lede and definition sections. Some of the more obvious problems:

They have modified structures that allow them to grow much taller than herbaceous plants and spread out their foliage

We just said that herbaceous species such as palms are trees, so how can trees be taller than trees? Added to that, we just said that cacti are trees, and many don't seem to have any adaptations to "spread out their foliage" that herbaceous plants don't also have. Additionally, many herbaceous vines grow taller than the trees they use as support, so it's simply not true that trees grow taller than herbaceous species.

They are long-lived

We had this debate 12 months ago. Many trees such as papayas or acacias are short lives even compared annual herbs such as onions.

They are... plants that can increase their size each year by producing woody stems.

We just discusses in some detail how palms and bananas are tress without woody stems

They differ from shrubs, which are also woody plants

We just said that many trees are herbaceous, so how can we say that shrubs are "also" woody"?

Trees exist in two different groups of vascular or higher plants, the gymnosperms and the angiosperms. Both groups are seed plants.

How are tree ferns not trees under the definition already given?

Angiosperm trees are also known as broad-leaved trees. Many gymnosperms are also known as broad laved trees, and I doubt that anyone would consider a cactus to be a broad leafed tree. Softwood, conifer and evergreen are not synonymous.

Most angiosperm trees are eudicots, the "true dicotyledons", so named because the seeds contain two cotyledons or seed leaves. A relatively small number of angiosperm trees are paleodicots;

What about the bamboos, palms etc that we just said are monocot trees?

Wood gives structural strength to the trunk of a tree

Are we now saying that herbaceous trees have woody trunks?

The vascular system of trees allows water, nutrients and other chemicals to be distributed around the plant, and without it trees would not be able to grow as large as they do. Trees, as relatively tall plants, need to draw water up the stem through the xylem from the roots by the suction produced as water evaporates from the leaves.

While certainly true, this is equally true of any vascular plant form including the smallest cryptogram.

Tree-like plants include some palms which are not trees but herbaceous[10] monocots; and hence do not meet the definition of tree used in this article.

We just went into some detail about how palms are trees. We aren't using a single definition of tree in this article.

There's work that needs to be done here.Mark Marathon (talk) 01:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

We appreciate your application to the Set of All Trees. Given your comments, we intend to review our criteria for admission. In the meantime, we welcome your continued contributions to our article. Willondon (talk) 04:01, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Forests are central to all human life because they provide a diverse range of resources: they store carbon dioxide, aid in regulating climate, purify water, generate air (oxygen) and mitigate natural hazards such as floods. Forests are very productive, as each mature tree produces atleast ten new trees each year, over a 50 to 100 year life span, though under natural conditions most forest trees grow on for several 100 years. Left on their own, forests advance rapidly in a decade or so. Each hectare of dense forest absorbs about 5 to 20 metric tons of carbon dioxide each year, depending on the forest type and climate. Many of the fruits and some household pets, are thought to have originated from the forests, and were domesticated and developed on farms and in villages close to the forests. AesopSmart (talk) 01:59, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Not sure why you've put this here: this page is the talk page for an article, not a forum on trees. However, if you are proposing text for the article, this sample is clearly unsuitable for several reasons: it is unreferenced; some of the claims are unverifiable; and it is largely about forests, not trees. It is also unnecessary as the current text on the same topic has just passed a Good Article review. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Trees are synonymous with forests, as a mature tree produces many new trees each year for many years, and thereby generates a forest.

The data on carbon fixation is obtained from reference values of the UNFCCC for clean development mechanisms with forestry. AesopSmart (talk) 06:46, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

To repeat, this is not a forum for discussing tree topics. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:54, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Anyone is welcome to add this information to the main page on trees, as this is hard scientific data on trees and forests. AesopSmart (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I've removed a large chunk of material that simply isn't applicable to trees as a whole. It might be worth adding to some forestry article, but since the material is only true for transplanted, pot-grown seedlings of softwood species in the humid regions of the higher latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere it's just too specific for an article on trees generally.. For example, to say that all trees are damaged by soil surface temperatures >52°C is obvious nonsense. If this were true, there would no trees in Central Australia, for example, since the soil surface gets to >60oC for at least 7 months of each year. There is also a lot of material that violates wp:nothowto. Mark Marathon (talk) 03:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Broadly, seconded. The material, right or wrong, could possibly be the basis of a specialized article but did not belong here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually In this article page of tree in wikipedia , the writer mentioned Bamboo in the category of trees.But I was tought in school that Bamboo belongs to grass family. can anyone please help me which is corrrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingpraveen (talk • contribs) 17:20, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. The article explains the different definitions of 'tree', which is not a fixed botanical term like 'sepal'. Bamboos are indeed grasses, but they are tall and woody, which makes them treelike in some people's minds. They do not have secondary growth with growth rings, which other people may say is a better definition. The article is neutral on this question. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm removing a large section of the definition sections that talks about "underground trees". This is a term that someone has coined for shrubs with lignotubers. That someone appears to be a reporter at the BBC. At this stage there is no evidence that any expert uses the term, not even the experts cited in the BBC article. The original article which the Beeb has bastardised uses the term "underground forest", complete with the quotation marks, then notes that another author likened these plants to underground trees. The article itself uses the more common term geoxyles to refer to these plants. At this stage all we have is the usage of the term in a single BBC article. Giving it any time in this article would be a violation of WP:FRINGE. Devoting an entire paragraph to a term used by one reporter clearly violates WP:UNDUE. Mark Marathon (talk) 07:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

'Underground trees' is not a newly-coined 'term' - it is a description of a well-known form of tree growth. Consequently the addition to the article should NOT be judged on whether 'reliable sources' have used the phrase, but rather whether the facts are correct. I am replacing the removed contribution. Paul venter (talk) 10:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The essay at "Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth" is apropos. The addition certainly should be judged on whether reliable sources have used the phrase, rather than whether or not the facts are correct. That's the way Wikipedia rolls, and I hope the essay will explain why that's a good thing. Willondon (talk) 13:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

As already noted, the term is not used by even reliable source. The sole reference given is a popular press interpretation of a scietific paper which notes that these pants were likened to trees and then states that the correct term for these plants is geoxyles, and that the paper will use that term. If you have evidence that the term is widely used by reliable sources then by all means show them to us. But at the moment we have only one misrepresented source. As such it can not be added to the article since it constitutes a fringe theory. This sort of nonsense is why so many articles, including this one, become a complete mess. Instead of discussing what the topic is about, everybody wants to use these broad subjects as a coatrack for their pet projects. The fact that one author used the term tree to describe a shrub or a kelp plant does not mean that those plants are trees. Please stop your edit warring, respect WP:BRD and discuss this issue here and allow consensus to be reached. Thank you. Mark Marathon (talk) 11:07, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Mark Marathon you have a rich history of edit-warring and article ownership. Kindly do not post unsigned inflammatory remarks on my home talk page - any remarks belong on THIS page... Paul venter (talk) 13:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I have replaced the contentious reference with a reliable source which mentions "underground trees". Paul venter (talk) 13:51, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Cool stuff. However, while the authors (Maurin et al.) mentions "underground trees" (but properly calls them "geoxyles), they do not support the addition

• Some trees moved underground as a survival strategy in grasslands and savannah
  • They didn't "move underground" - some lineages evolved a largely underground growth form that could be seen an analogous to an underground tree.
• These species, which are trees with extensive subterranean, woody trunks, moved below the soil surface in order to escape the damaging effects of seasonal grassfires or extreme cold as in the Arctic tundra.
  • Maurin et al. does not call them "subterranean, woody trunks" but rather, quotes from another source which calls them "a lignified complex of root and shoot tissue". Although both are woody, root and shoot tissues are quite different anatomically.
  • As above, "moved below the soil surface" is an inapt way to describe evolutionary change. It's also at least partly incorrect (give the "root and shoot tissues" quote)
  • The source does not explain the origin, only provides a reasonable speculation as to why drove the evolution of the life form
  • Source makes no mention of tundra. In fact, the only mention of cold is the suggestion (which they reject) that this growth form evolved in response to snow in southern Africa.

In addition, I have questions about whether this belongs in the tree article at all. Maybe in woody plant, albeit in a different form, truer to the source. Guettarda (talk) 14:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

If you don't like the wording then change it, but don't remove the entire paragraph as a result. "The source does not explain the origin, only provides a reasonable speculation as to why drove the evolution of the life form" does not make any logical sense and perhaps needs rephrasing. "a lignified complex of root and shoot tissue" means roots and shoots that have become woody - I think you are splitting hairs here. You mention the wording "moved underground" three times in your list of objections - I think the repetition is unnecessary. Again, the presence of underground trees in the Arctic is well-known, but if you are unfamiliar with the idea I shall find a source to support it. Paul venter (talk) 17:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• The source does not explain the reason these structures developed (cold, fire, etc.), so we can't claim that they do.
• A "lignified complex" means that these tissues are of both stem and root origin. Tree trunks are of stem origin. So...
• Your text used "moved underground" (or some variety thereof) multiple times, so it ended up in multiple quotes. Mostly it's worth noting because it creates a misconception of evolutionary change. I'm not saying that you share that misconception, but writing like that may communicate it, especially to people who hold (common) misconceptions about evolution.
• As for the Arctic - yes, sourcing is the problem. You credited "Arctic" to this particular source. And no, though I've worked with tundra vegetation, I am not aware that the woody plants, such as they exist, have "underground trunks". In fact, if that's the case at the site I worked, that would change my understanding of what we saw. (It's not my site, so my understanding isn't very important.) Guettarda (talk) 13:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The exact definition of a tree can be problematic, but "underground trees" would be included by virtually nobody, despite a fanciful popular-press science article. Readers will almost certainly be coming here to learn about what is the common understanding of trees (and the definition of trees in dictionaries, textbooks, etc.) of a woody plant extending a considerable height above the ground. "Underground trees" could perhaps be included on a disambiguation page, although I would hope that it would lead to an article on geoxyles. Tdslk (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

As per WP:BRD, I have reverted the article back to the version that doesn't mention "underground trees". Please will all editors cease further edit warring and instead continue to discuss this subject in order to achieve consensus. Thanks. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I am reverting the article to a previous version. This is in line with WP policy and cites a reliable source for 'underground trees' viz. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25039765 . Deleting a reliably sourced contribution is frowned upon by WP and I gather the impression that some of the editors involved in the above 'discussion' have not even bothered to look up the reference source. Paul venter (talk) 08:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Please do not do that again. I note that another editor already reverted your edit, which saves me the trouble. You can not add this material until consensus for its conclusion has been reached, either on this page or a dispute resolution page. At this stage we have three editors who feel that the material probably does not belong in this article, and only you claiming that it does. The consensus as it stands is that the material should not be added. I am sure that we are all willing to listen of you have some compelling reasons why you think this should be added. Or you can, of course, take this to one of the dispute resolution pages if you feel that we are being unreasonable. What you can not do is keep adding this material against the consensus. That is edit warring, you have been warned already on your talk page and if you persist you will be reported. in terms of your "reliable source for underground trees", you will note that the term is used by those authors as a term-of-art, hence the quotes. The authors then use the term geoxyles for the rest of the article. As noted above, the fact that one source refers to kelp as "underwater trees" or fungi as "microscopic trees" does not mean that fungi or kelp should be covered in this article. in keeping with Wikipedia policy this article should be about what readers will be expecting when they search for "tree", not about other things that are called trees as a term-of-art. Do you agree that this article should not cover kelp or fungi, even though it is easy to find scientists who refer to those things as "underwater trees" or "microscopic trees"? Or do you contend that this article should cover every organism that has ever had the term "tree" attached to it?Mark Marathon (talk) 10:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Pasted from Paul venter's talk page - Hello Paul venter. As per WP:BRD, I have reverted the Tree article back to the version that does not mention "underground trees". This is so the subject can be discussed on the talk page and a consensus can be reached. Please note that my reversion of your edit is not a statement about my personal opinion on the matter. Please also note that if you undertake any further reversions, you will be contravening WP:3RR. Thanks. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Paul, please do not keep reverting back to your preferred version while the matter is under dispute - it doesn't solve anything. In order to stop the edit war, consensus must first be gained, and as per WP:BRD, this should be done with the article in its original version. Thanks. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

PaleCloudedWhite, instead of telling me not to revert would you kindly be specific about YOUR reasons for removing an adequately sourced contribution? Paul venter (talk) 10:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

He has given his reason several times: WP:BRD. When an edit is under dispute, the article stays in the original form until consensus is reached. Multiple editors have raised issues that suggest that the edits should not be included and a discussion is underway on whether they should be included. No other reason is required to remove your "adequately sourced contribution". The fact that it is under discussion is sufficient. Now would you care to actually discuss this an address some of the points raised above so we can resolve this? At this stage, consensus seems to be that this material properly belongs in a separate "Geoxyle" article with perhaps a "See also" link here. If that is not agreeable to you, can you explain to us why? Mark Marathon (talk) 11:49, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

As Mark Marathon states, my reason for removing your addition is because it is under dispute and, as per WP:BRD, discussion should take place with the article in its original version. If due process isn't followed then all that will happen is an edit war, which doesn't solve anything and may lead to editors being blocked. I think it would be beneficial if more editors enter this discussion, so I will post a note at the talk page of WikiProject Plants. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I have created a short article Geoxyle to which contributions or alterations are welcome. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• This is the English language wikipedia and so, per WP:JARGON, we prefer plain English to cod Latin. The word geoxyle (earth-wood) seems to be a crude neologism which does not appear to have any significant usage and does not appear in the OED. The phrase "underground tree" seems quite reasonable and gets more usage but if you're desperate for an alternative then xylopodium (wooden foot) - seems to get more usage. Xylopodium does not appear in the OED either and so we should always provide a plain English version first. Andrew D. (talk) 17:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Andrew D., does the term "underground tree" appear in the OED? If not then how did you conclude that this is considered to be the plain English term and hence the preferred term? In plain English a tree is a tall woody plant with a trunk, whereas an "underground tree" is a short, often herbaceous plant with no trunk and a woody root system. So how is "underground tree" any less jargon that "geoxyle". I will ask you the same question I asked above: I can find any number of articles referring to kelp as "underwater trees" or fungi as "microscopic trees". Do you think we should include those life forms in this article on the basis that they are described as "x trees"?Mark Marathon (talk) 23:02, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I came here looking for information on trees giving off oxygen. This is a long article; did I just miss it? Didn't find the word "metabolism" on the page. Didn't find the word "oxygen" in this connection.

Especially with the focus on climate change today, don't we hear that trees are essential for providing oxygen?

I found some of what I was looking for here: http://mff.dsisd.net/Environment/TreePhys.htm (Excerpt:)

<<

The Necessities of Life

The following is brief discussion of each of six key requirements for trees. More detail of some topics is found later in this guide.

1. Sugars supplied by photosynthesis. Air and water are chemically recombined to form glucose, which stores energy captured from the sun. Oxygen is a byproduct.

2. Water is required for most metabolic activities and serves as a vehicle to carry materials through a tree. A large tree may move as much as 50-100 gallons of water on a hot summer day.

3. Nutrients. It’s not how much of a particular nutrient exists in the environment, it’s a matter of how available the nutrient is to the tree. For example, the atmosphere is largely composed on nitrogen, but trees can only use nitrogen in forms that have been altered by soil bacteria and other organisms. The major chemical elements used by plants are: carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, potassium, nitrogen, sulfur, calcium, iron, and magnesium. . . .

>>

And here:

http://www.sciencefocus.com/qa/how-many-trees-are-needed-provide-enough-oxygen-one-person

(Excerpt:)

<<

Trees release oxygen when they use energy from sunlight to make glucose from carbon dioxide and water. Like all plants, trees also use oxygen when they split glucose back down to release energy to power their metabolisms. Averaged over a 24-hour period, they produce more oxygen than they use up; otherwise there would be no net gain in growth.

It takes six molecules of CO2 to produce one molecule of glucose by photosynthesis, and six molecules of oxygen are released as a by-product. A glucose molecule contains six carbon atoms, so that’s a net gain of one molecule of oxygen for every atom of carbon added to the tree. A mature sycamore tree might be around 12m tall and weigh two tonnes, including the roots and leaves. If it grows by five per cent each year, it will produce around 100kg of wood, of which 38kg will be carbon. Allowing for the relative molecular weights of oxygen and carbon, this equates to 100kg of oxygen per tree per year.

A human breathes about 9.5 tonnes of air in a year, but oxygen only makes up about 23 percent of that air, by mass, and we only extract a little over a third of the oxygen from each breath. That works out to a total of about 740kg of oxygen per year. Which is, very roughly, seven or eight trees’ worth.

>>

Thanks -- Jo3sampl (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I guess the simple answer is that this an article about a grouping of plants with similar growth form that we call trees. They share many characteristics with most other plants and algae including the grass and cereal covered savannas, the phytoplankton in the seas and lakes, the garigue and scrub in many Mediterranean climate regions etc etc. All of these plants (with a very few exceptions) are using carbon dioxide, water and sunlight to drive their metabolism and releasing oxygen as a by-product. Should we mention evolution of oxygen in every plant article ? Neither the article on Garrigue nor than on Savanna mention oxygen and very few (any ?) individual plant articles mentions it. However Photosynthesis does detail the process. I suspect that in the wider scale of things, Wikipedia ought to provide reliable information on how the Forests of the world contribute to oxygen production and carbon-dioxide removal and I am sure there is plenty of facts in Climate change. Whether there should be a section here, I personally am unsure, but I wouldn't oppose a consensus view in favour.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   12:01, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

How does a tree provide oxegon Learnypeople (talk) 21:34, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Please see Photosynthesis .... and it isn't just trees. It is grasses and algae and herbaceous plants and shrubs for example.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   02:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

In my research, I've come across "trees are 74% water". This article makes no reference to how trees are comprised of mostly water. Anyone? - tree hugger 2601:589:4705:C7C0:19CD:96F1:FF74:481B (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Nearly all organisms including animals and plants are mostly composed of water. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:14, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I can't even find an instance of the word phylum or phylogeny in this article. Is this simple english wikipedia? I am incredibly disappointed. This is a baby article.

Also no instance of the word division for you botanists out there who don't like to use the term phylum. At this point I'd regard even botanists as superior to the dunces that wrote this article.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.40.209 (talk) 23:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Please read the article. Trees are independently evolved growth forms in many phyla.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   23:56, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

In my research, I've come across "trees are 74% water". This article makes no reference to how trees are comprised of mostly water. Anyone? - tree hugger 2601:589:4705:C7C0:19CD:96F1:FF74:481B (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Nearly all organisms including animals and plants are mostly composed of water. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:14, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I can't even find an instance of the word phylum or phylogeny in this article. Is this simple english wikipedia? I am incredibly disappointed. This is a baby article.

Also no instance of the word division for you botanists out there who don't like to use the term phylum. At this point I'd regard even botanists as superior to the dunces that wrote this article.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.40.209 (talk) 23:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Please read the article. Trees are independently evolved growth forms in many phyla.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   23:56, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

The second and third paragraphs have a lot of good information but no sources to go with them. Alexajim (talk) 00:36, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. A lead section is supposed to summarize the content that's presented in more detail within the body of an article. If the detailed content is adequately sourced, references aren't generally required for the summary content. (There are exceptions, but it's true for the most part. See WP:LEADCITE.) If you find something in the second or third paragraphs that isn't sourced later in the article, please note it here. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

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I have deleted the following text:

Trees exist in two different groups of vascular or higher plants, the gymnosperms and the angiosperms. The gymnosperm trees include conifers, cycads, ginkgophytes and gnetales; they produce seeds which are not enclosed in fruits, but in open structures such as pine cones, and many have tough waxy leaves, such as pine needles.Most angiosperm trees are eudicots, the "true dicotyledons", so named because the seeds contain two cotyledons or seed leaves. There are also some trees among the old lineages of flowering plants called basal angiosperms or paleodicots; these include Amborella, Magnolia, nutmeg and avocado, while trees such as bamboo, palms and bananas are monocots.

We just finished saying that tree ferns and lycophytes are trees, and while they are vadcular plants, they are neither gymnosperms nor angiosperms. As such, saying that trees only exist inthose two groups is just plain wrong. Mark Marathon (talk) 01:48, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Um, something useful is being stated in the paragraph: there's no need to read anything exclusive into it. We could restate it as "there are by the way trees in both the gymnosperms and the angiosperms...", which is true and helpful - indeed, the great majority of trees are in these groups. I'll have another try. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:49, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Are trees not angiosperms? I thought angiosperms meant flowering plants, and some trees do bear flowers in spring time. Vorbee (talk) 06:55, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The article explains the situation on this; there are coniferous and other trees, and the term isn't a formal botanical one, as it explains. I think if you read it through carefully you'll agree the definition, such as it is, is a broad church. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:08, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The details of, or even a list of perhaps the 5 or 10 or so most important tree nutrients seems to be missing. Is this even the best article for it? Does it exist somewhere else on Wikipedia, where it is or can be explained? For example, there are a lot of articles and images that look something like this... How soil pH affects the availaiblity of plant nutrients, which list about a dozen key nutrients; but just not finding it explicated in Wikipedia.

For example, Maple trees in many Western US soils are known to have particular problems obtaining sufficiency of Manganese and Iron (e.g., iron chlorosis, even when iron is in the soil. But it seems tree nutrients in general should perhaps be discussed somewhere. Cheers N2e (talk) 19:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

^[1]

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I made a 3D modell about secondary growth. I would like to share the link from references on the page of the wikipedia. 1levivel1 (talk) 16:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

That's very kind of you - ingenious model!, but we can't do that unless it's on Commons really. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:22, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

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Change "The shoots typically bear leaves" to "The shoots are typically bear leaves" 176.58.24.100 (talk) 10:05, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly better as it is. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:09, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Bear is a verb here, meaning "The shoots typically carry leaves". It's not an adjective as in "bare leaves", nor are they food for a bear which eats shoots and leaves. Certes (talk) 11:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: I don't understand this edit. Can you explain? Invasive Spices (talk) 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Not sure there's much more to be said, and I'm a bit surprised both that you thought to insert it and (more) that you want to argue the matter. The material is entirely WP:PRIMARY, the opinion of a single research paper. It's a minor aspect, not worthy of a mention in an article which is not about the ecology of trees but is the top-level article summarizing all aspects of tree biology and culture, i.e. (to coin a phrase) the top of a tree of articles about wood and xylem and so forth. If the topic is discussed in a review article or textbook, indicating something closer to notability, then it might perhaps deserve a brief mention but only as a sentence in the Ecology section, certainly not a whole orphaned subsection to itself: but I frankly doubt it, and certainly not on the minimal evidence provided. All of this is basic. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Jactel et al 2021 is a review. Invasive Spices (talk) 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've reworded the entry - it didn't need a section, as I stated - to read like the rest of the article rather than naming authors and reading like a dictionary definition. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:33, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

• 
  Proposed. Latex running down, clear image, showing previous cuts
• 
  Original. Latex barely visible, very dark image

Chiwick Chap I'm confused by your reversion of image with the comment "the original image actually shows the latex, the suggest replacement only pipes". I can clearly see the latex in this image. There are some others to choose from if required, as the current image is pretty poor imo. (Hohum ^@) 18:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

How odd. I looked at the diff and there was a poor image with plastic pipes around a tree Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:38, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I've looked at a few diffs and can't reproduce it. Is the proposed image acceptable? (Hohum ^@) 21:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:33, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

This blog article is interesting; it puts forward the idea that trees, like fish, are not a monophyletic group. Also, this. Are there other, non-blog WP:RS for this concept, and is it worth including in this article? — The Anome (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks for the thought. The article already makes clear that not only are trees not a monophyletic group (a clade), they do not even have a single definition botanically. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

So it does, and in the lede as well! I should read more carefully. I have added a para break to the lede to make this more apparent. — The Anome (talk) 16:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

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Add more about the envirmoent 2403:580D:C20E:0:80F5:CC35:591F:6934 (talk) 09:19, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Not done; the article's focus is plainly and correctly on trees as such; we have other articles on their environment in the shape of Forest and many others. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap Hi there, I saw your reversion of my changes regarding transpiration and capillary action. Could we talk about it?

I disagree that it's tangential to the article to use precise language and call the processes what they are. Additionally, I didn't OR it, the citation that was already there correctly names these processes.

"It is the transpiration of water from leaves which is the main driving force for the movement of water in xylem."

and

"This attraction pulls water along inside narrow spaces (this is how a sponge can passively soak-up water). The force that drives this movement of water is the capillary force of cohesion-adhesion."

Furthermore, the previous sentence, "Trees, as relatively tall plants, need to draw water up the stem through the xylem from the roots by the suction produced as water evaporates from the leaves." is inaccurate at best. Trees needing to draw water up their stems has nothing to do with them being tall plants as nearly all plants need to move water through their bodies using similar processes, as far as I am aware. Infectedfreckle (talk) 10:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Um, trees have to do much more pulling up of water than low-growing plants. I've added the word "high", in ..."draw water high up the stem". There is a definite danger of going down a massive rabbit-hole about the mechanisms, but sure, we can link the terms. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing and compromising.

I appreciate your clear stewardship of such an important article, and if these changes open a Pandora's box, feel free to remove them and I will defer to your editorial experience. Infectedfreckle (talk) 11:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I added a sentence about tree cookies to the trunk section of the parts section of the article and it was removed due to allegedly "off topic". In the context of forestry, foresters, logging, nature centers, and forest education I have heard the term tree cookie be used to refer to a slice of a tree. Especially when used to teach people about how to age a tree by "reading" the annual growth rings. I think it is extremely relevant and should be included. But I don't want to start an edit war so I would love to get the perspective of other editors. Middle Mac CJM (talk) 06:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The fact is, however, that a "cookie" is just a piece of timber, an accidental by-product; the cited statement was just a definition (WP:NOTDICT), and it was followed by a brief uncited claim, not good. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you! Middle Mac CJM (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The early link for "woody" links to the article for "Bark" but seems like it should instead link to the article for "Woody Plants" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_plant)

I'm planning on improving a few sections with the intention of making the names more sensible and consistent. Specifically:

1) Cleanup the Definition & Overview sections by:

1a) Rename "Definition" to "Definition and overview"

1b) Move first paragraph of existing Overview section (which - among other things - distinguishes trees from shrubs) into ""Definition and overview" section, which already includes "must be tall" discussion.

1c) Change name of remainder of the existing "Overview" section (four paragraphs) to "Classification", because that is what most its contents are: various ways to classify or categorize trees.

2) Create new section named "In culture" to contain: Trees in art; trees _as_ art; trees in literature; trees in worship; etc

2a) Put existing "Mythology" section into new "In culture" section

2b) Rename existing "Mythology" section to "Religion and mythology"

3) Ensure uniform subsection names under "Uses" section: in particular: subsections should be named after use, not tree part

3a) Change name of "Bark" section to be the use(s) of the individual paragraphs (may or may not require 2+ new subsections)

4) Split existing "trunk" section into "Trunk" section and "Bark" sections, because bark covers more than only the trunk (not clear yet if Bark should be subsection of Trunk or not; probably not)

5) Define "Threats" section to be limited to "threats to trees/forests etc"; excludes "threats to humans"

5a) Move "threats to humans" material from that section into some other TBS section

I'm not planning on changing any content of the above sections ... merely renaming & some simple re-organizing. I'm planning on doing this in the couple of days. If you have any thoughts or suggestions, let me know. Of course, any changes can be modified/undone. Noleander (talk) 23:08, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

"Classification" at least is a poor name as 99% of the time it means "Taxonomy", but there is no such implication here. I suppose we could call the section "Types" as long as it is clear this is not equivalent to "Taxa".

I'm not sure I agree, either, about the idea that the "Uses" s/sections can all be named after specific, often minor uses; in particular, "Bark" names a major source of products, but several of those products are way too minor to deserve s/sections of their own. The meaning "Uses of bark" is perfectly comprehensible and should stay, though I daresay "Bark products" would do as well. The search for strict uniformity always falls foul of nature's diversity and the range of human ingenuity, and that's true here.

Not keen on inserting "and" into any section heading.

"Threats" is perfectly plain, as the article's subject is "Tree"; just as "Uses" means "Uses of trees", so "Threats" means "Threats to trees"; there is no call whatsoever to bring humans in as subjects (that's anthropocentrism, of which Wikipedia has far too much already). If you're totally stuck on this one then "Conservation threats" would do as a circumlocution, but that is a movement in the direction of longer, weaker, and less tightly expressed, which isn't a good direction of travel. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:39, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm tempted to tag the overview section with {{Overview section}}. Can we better figure out how to label/structure it to avoid redundancy with the intended purpose of the lead? Sdkb ^talk 20:16, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

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