Talk:Urien Rheged/GA1

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GA review

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Nominator: Tipcake (talk · contribs) 21:19, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Reverosie (talk · contribs) 17:57, 9 June 2025 (UTC)


@Tipcake: Hello! I'll be your GA reviewer. First and foremost, I'm extremely sorry for the long wait! Even though I'm a relatively new editor, I understand how frustrating that must have been. I'm very interested in medieval history, so this article seemed like it would be a fun review. Naturally, thanks to the article's long length, this process might take a bit longer than usual. Other than that, I have high hopes. 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 17:57, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

I'll begin the initial review now.

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

My hopes are very high so far. I'm tempted to quick-pass this article, but there are a few comments I have. I'll move to the spot check shortly 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 12:42, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

The extremely high quality of this article means that this review will certainly take shorter than I anticipated 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 12:43, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

I'll be starting my in-depth review now. Sorry it took a bit, I had to finish up my exams and it took up more of my time than I anticipated! 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 18:21, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Spot Check

Usually, I would do a spot check, but your article's peer review means that I don't see any need to! It looks as though your citations have already been reviewed and given the greenlight by somebody else. This is great news for me, because now I can delve into the actual review much faster! (And I don't really enjoy spot checks, since the vast majority of GA reviews are reliable. Alas, I blame the Zhemao hoaxes.) 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 18:24, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Infobox

I'd suggest separating Urien's legendary children from his confirmed children with some sort of indicator, a bit like how illegitimate children are separated. To save you time, I've made a version of what I think this could look like

That's it for the infobox for now, though

The rest of the review will be formatted like this:

I'll be abbreviating the paragraph and sentence I'm referring to in my suggestions to P and S. For example, paragraph 2, sentence 3 would be P2S3. The paragraph counter also resets with each new section.

I'll be adding more sections as I go instead of posting my entire review at once

Please use the  Done template or strikethrough to indicate that a problem has been fixed, and add any comments/questions after the points that you have. If you don't agree with one of my suggestions, please tell me, and we can discuss it. Some comments will be marked as "suggestions"; these are recommendations, not requirements, and you don't have to take them! 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 15:07, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Lead

  • P1S2: He is probably the best-known and certainly the best documented... Sentences shouldn't use language like this. The "probably" should be removed; I'd suggest saying one of the best known instead :)
  • P1S3: His kingdom was most likely centred around the Solway Firth The link to the article about the Solway Firth should be here
  • P1S4: Urien led an alliance with three other kings... The article should specify who these kings are
  • P2S3: One of these poems is explicitly attributed to the famed poet Taliesin in the manuscript... It should be emphasized here that Taliesin was a contemporary of Urien
  • P2S4: and Britons of the 'Old North' alike Since you already linked to the article about the old north once before, you don't need to do it again

Problems of interpretation

  • Suggestion: P1S3: Nevertheless, the other places which appear in conjunction with him are generally identified with places in the north of England and south of Scotland. I'd suggest making this sentence the end of a paragraph and splitting it off from the rest of the section. The singular paragraph in this section is very long, and I think that splitting it here could be beneficial.
  • P1S4: Another difficulty with outlining Urien's career is that the poetry to him contained in the Book of Taliesin, possibly from his own time, does not contain much in the way of narrative or readily usable information about Urien and his deeds I'd suggest a rewrite on this sentence for clarity. Perhaps "the poetry about him in the book of Taliesin" instead of "the poetry to him contained in the book of taliesin". I'd also suggest shortening the last bit; perhaps something a bit like "does not contain much reliable information about Urien and his deeds."
  • P1S5: Likewise, beyond a general dating of the late sixth century, Urien's date of death (the details of which are not memorialised in surviving panegyric) is very difficult to establish due to the garbled and corrupt nature of the text which synchronises his death to what has been interpreted to refer to a time as early as 572 AD to as late as after Augustine's mission to the Kingdom of Kent after 597 I commend you on your brilliant writing style, but it must be simplified for Wikipedia. Perhaps something like "Urien's date of death is impossible to know for certain due to the unreliable nature of the text mentioning it. The time of his death has been narrowed down to a time as early as 572 AD to as late as 597, after Augustine's mission to the Kingdom of Kent."

Early Welsh Material

Material found in Harley MS 3859

  • P1S1 + P1S2: The earliest material giving evidence of Urien is to be found in Harley MS 3859. This manuscript is celebrated among Welsh manuscripts because of its early date and the material concerning the early Middle Ages found within it. I'd suggest merging these sentences for specification and clarity regarding what harley MS 3859 is
  • P1S5: The Welsh material in Harley 3859 probably was compiled together in the exemplar of this manuscript, which was most likely written around 954 at St Davids in the reign of Owain ap Hywel Dda. It needs to be specified what manuscript Harley 3859 was made in the example of. The language should also be simplified again, perhaps "following the example of this manuscript"

The 'Harleian Genealogies'

  • Suggestion: P1S3: especially those extraneous dynasties given descent from him in the much later fifteenth century genealogical tracts titled Bonedd Gwŷr y Gogledd I'd suggest cutting this out, since it has no relevance to Urien himself
  • P1S4: Since the 'Coeling' first appear in genealogies together in Harley MS 3859 with the Historia Brittonum, which narrates the end of Urien's career... This should be mentioned about the Historia Brittonum when it is first mentioned in the previous section instead of just now
  • P1S5: Nothing is known of Urien's father Cynfarch, even if he ruled over Rheged, though this may indeed have been the case given that later material refers to the 'Cynferchyn', descendants of Cynfarch, which implies that he was of a certain notability to be treated as an ancestor-figure. This entire sentence needs more clarity. Perhaps that Cynfarch could have ruled over Rheged, which may have been the case since later material refers to the Cynferchyn, meaning that Cynfarch was some sort of ancestor-figure.

Poetry to Urien in the Book of Taliesin

  • P1S1: or poems extolling the virtues of a ruler or leading figure in a society The language here should be a bit simplified
  • P1S2: Urien has the almost unique distinction of having a sizeable body of possibly contemporaneous poems dedicated to him in the Book of Taliesin (Peniarth MS 2), a Middle Welsh manuscript of the early fourteenth century, of which twelve poems are taken to be 'historical', that is, possibly reflecting genuine sixth-century material and devoid of supernatural or gnomic content. This sentence is extremely long and either needs to be shortened or split into two parts
  • P2S3: Only one poem of these twelve, 'Yspeil Taliessin', is explicitly attributed to Urien's court poet Taliesin in the manuscript, It is only now mentioned that Taliesin was Urien's court poet; I believe that this should be specified as soon as Taliesin is first mentioned in the lead
  • P3S4: One poem mentions Urien and Owain as having fought one 'Fflamddwyn' (meaning 'flame-bearing'), which has been traditionally identified as a kenning referring to one of Ida's sons, perhaps even Theodric, since Owain ab Urien is praised for killing Fflanddwyn alongside a 'broad host of English' in another poem, and the Historia Brittonum gives Welsh nicknames to other early Northumbrian kings. Again, this sentence is extremely long.

Urien and the Battle of Catraeth

I have no suggestions for the beginning of this section, for it is already GA status. Outstanding work!

References to Catraeth outside the Gododdin

  • P1S4: The narrator in 'Yspeil Taliesin' also says of Urien gweleis i lyw katraeth tra maeu 'I saw the lord of Catraeth across the plains' as part of his celebration of Urien's courage and generosity. There should be some sort of example of his courage and generosity here, for the quote alone is not enough to prove this claim

John Koch's reconstruction of the Battle of Catraeth

I'd strongly suggest (but will not require) putting the stanzas below into some sort of template instead of their current format. I've made two iterations of what this could look like for you to copy and paste from the source editor into the article (you can pick which one you prefer).

Format #1:

Format #2

Old Welsh

O vreithyell gatraeth pan adrodir.
maon dychiorant eu hoet bu hir.
edyrn diedyrn amygyn dir.
a meibyon godebawc gwerin enwir.
dyforthynt lynwyssawr gelorawr hir.

Translation:
English

It is concerning Catraeth’s variegated and ruddy [land] that it is told
the followers fell; long were the lamentations for them,
the immortalised men; [but] it was not as immortals that they fought for territory
against the descendants of Godebog, the rightful faction:
long biers bore off blood-stained bodies

  • P1S2 Rachel Bromwich supposed an emendation of this line, deleting the preposition a, Modern Welsh â 'with', so the line would mean 'not as undying men did the descendants of Godebog fight for the land', which would make the descendants of Godebog allies of the heroes of the Gododdin The sentence again needs to be made more clear, shortened, or split

The rest of this subsection is entirely GA status. I strongly encourage you to keep writing good articles on the topic; I'd be more than happy to review them :) 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 23:13, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Receptions of Koch's hypothesis

I have no suggestions for this segment, aside from the fact that it could possibly added as a new paragraph in the previous section instead of breaking off into its own section for three sentences

Later Welsh material

Saga poetry and Canu Urien

  • P1S5: This material is called 'saga poetry' by comparison with Icelandic sagas, both because like the Icelandic material, the Welsh poems are thought to have been taken from longer, partly prose (or oral) works, and because they both might reflect earlier history through a literary lens. I'd suggest removing the word "both" for clarity
  • P2S5: In response to this, Patrick Sims-Williams put forth powerful arguments based on the text and its history to identify the narrator with Llywarch Hen after all, chief among them the fact that the narrator addresses Urien as keuynderw 'first cousin', and that the weight of evidence about Llywarch in the eyes of later medieval Welshmen suggests they viewed him as a great warrior, even if he suffered in old age Agian, the sentence needs to be shortened or split into two
  • P3S1: titles "Pen Urien" (Urien's Head) and "Celain Urien" (Urien's corpse) Since these titles are not in English, they should be italicized
  • Table: Canu Urien §§7–27, 'Pen Urien' and 'Celain Urien' (Jesus MS 111) Since Jesus MS 111 was previously referred to by its title, the Red Book of Hergest, it should not change to Jesus MS 111.

Urien in other medieval Welsh literature

  • P3S3: This reflects an older form of the name *Urbogen... I'm not sure why there's an asterisk here. There should also be a comma after Urbogen.

The rebellion of Rhys 'FitzUryen' ap Gruffydd

No specific suggestions here, but many of the sentences need to be shortened

Arthurian legend

No suggestions for the intro section

Romances

P1S6: Upon their defeat, he is among the rebel leaders become Arthur's allies and vassals I'm assuming this is supposed to say "who became Arthur's allies and vassals"

Overall

@Tipcake, the review is now complete (though, I might add more suggestions in the future!) Here's the procedure:

If all of my suggestions are fulfilled within three or four days, I will quick pass the article. If not, I will put the article on hold for as long as you need (but ideally not over three weeks).

However, if you completely stop making progress for an extended amount of time (and do not give me a reason as to why), I may have to fail you.

This article was a pleasure to review! Good luck! 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 21:00, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

@Reverosie, thanks for your very helpful and encouraging comments. I have emended the text as you suggested. Do tell me if there's anything else that needs changing! Tipcake (talk) 07:42, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
Absolutely incredible work! I'm passing the article now 🌷Reverosie🌷★talk★ 14:33, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

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