Talk:Video game console/Archive 3

Given the significantly slower processor speed, significantly slower GPU, significantly less storage and the lack of HD, the Wii seems closer in capabilities to generation six consoles than seven. So, perhaps it should be moved? Or maybe it needs a new category of generation 6.5 or 6+? Especially if you compare the numbers of the Wii compared to the sixth generation Xbox. They seem very similar to me.

______Xbox,Wii,Xbox 360

CPU 733Mhz, 729Mhz, 3.2Ghz

GPU 233Mhz, 243Mhz, 500Mhz

Memory 64MB, 91MB, 522MB

Those being the figures I've found on Wikipedia. I hope I didn't get them mixed. -OOPSIE- (talk) 06:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Generations on Wikipedia are not defined purely by hardware, but by a combination of several factors including the market it's intended to compete on. The Wii is Nintendo's competition to the PS3 and Xbox360, i.e. it's intended to compete on the current generation market. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 06:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

When and where was that decided? -OOPSIE- (talk) 06:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

At the video game project (which these pages fall under), quite some time ago. Feel free to ask on the discussion page there. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 06:51, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks -OOPSIE- (talk) 06:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

New member of the site, joined just to address this:

For the PS3 section, it states that "a 120 GB "slim" announced for September, as well as rumours of a 250 GB "slim" version to be revealed at "Tokyo Game Show" in September, tested by the FCC in March." Weird, I thought that the slim version was already out as well as the 250GB version.

KryticalEffect (talk) 00:32, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The Following Link:

http://edgevsmeta.blogspot.com/2010/03/edge-vs-metacritic-does-games-platform.html

Details an accurate evaluation of specific and varied ratings upon many console games for both platforms and multi-platform. Giving mathmatical results showing an average difference which is rather significant.

I understand for a while now that many PS3 owners and supporters have had moments where Edge seems to bias reviews giving Xbox 360 higher more favourable reviews. They replied by saying they rate games irrespective of their platform. However, this is yet emphisised by the Bayonetta scores variating by 4 points with PS3 being 86 and 90 for Xbox 360.

Therefore, if Edge Reviews is still to be used within reception sections of Game articles, do not weigh their score heavily on the game in question. Otherwise it may be best to avoid using Edge Reviews within reception all together, or hint at the scores they gave.
-- The Cosmo 17:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Is there any definition of 8th generation of video consoles? The anonymous deleted my variant, is he doing something legal? `a5b (talk) 21:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

No new generation of consoles has emerged at this point. None of the new 360/ps3/wii versions qualify as a *new* generation. BcRIPster (talk) 19:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

To follow up on what BcRIPster said, as I stated there at the other conversation on it as well, generations at this point are usually decided by a combination of the industry and the press. That's where we get our reliable references from, and that's who we'll be going by for when its time to create an 8th generation article. Right now is just to soon. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 21:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Theres a new console out, the Onlive microconsole. onlive.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.29.181 (talk) 19:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

"but recent speculation suggests that both the "PlayStation 4" and the "Xbox 720" will be released in the period 2014-2016." Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Removed --Pctopgs (talk) 18:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Why do we classify everything into 'Generations'? It's so redundant. Just describe the entire history of game consoles in one big flowing paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.20.203 (talk) 15:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

It because reliable sources do so and it is better than a wall of text. Not everyone wants to read that.--76.66.180.54 (talk) 02:29, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

The section Video_game_console#Fourth_generation seems a bit confusing. First it says Sega had significant market share from its system, then says it only got successful years later when it released Sonic. Is there anywhere listing the worldwide sales of each counsel year by year? Did Sega have even a tenth of the market between the time it released its 16 bit system and before the time Nintendo release its 16 bit system? Dream Focus 06:17, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you'd find such detailed information in general. For the Sega Genesis (US version only) I know it sold less than one million units up to 1990. Michael Katz was fired over that. He estimated that six months after the Genesis was released (time he was fired) it had sold about 500,000 units. He considered that excellent and the Japanese management considered anything under one million a failure: http://www.sega-16.com/2006/04/interview-michael-katz/ - Robert Jones05:16, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Title says it all. The Nintendo 3DS has been launched, and suceedes the seventh generation DS, and is therefore the first eigth generation console released. An article on the eigth generation should now be made, imo. Technoguy123 (talk) 00:42, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Anyone? Technoguy123 (talk) 19:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The 3DS is a handheld console which are apparently not covered by this article. You are free to add it if you would like; it wouldn't be totally inappropriate. Sir Robert "Brightgalrs" Schultz de Plainsboro (talk) 19:22, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

No, not as an 8th generation marker he can't. This has already been well discussed elsewhere, including the deletion discussions for the 8th gen article (which has been deleted 4 or so times and is currently blocked from being created). Likewise the article for handheld game consoles is Handheld game consoles. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Just added in a link in the intro to the handheld games article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.33.128.53 (talk) 05:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Probably the launch of the expected Wii successor will be that marker. Mahjongg (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

The 3DS is mentioned under the Eighth Generation section, along with Project Cafe and PS4; but shouldn't then the PS Vita also be listed? 122.57.200.99 (talk) 13:53, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, why is there a wikipedia article on video games in the first place? Who even cares about them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truedat323 (talk • contribs) 23:20, 25 December 2011 (UTC) Stricken as user was indefinitely blocked. MIVP (I Can Help? ◕‿◕) - ^{(Chocolate Cakes)} 20:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

isn't the eighth gen. of gaming consoles starting now with the ps3 and the xbox 720? so shouldn't that be added at least when they come out? zeroro(talk)(edits) 09:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I added an experiment to the end of the "third generation" section. It's just a table that lists all the consoles of the generation by regional release date. I think this would be clever idea to add to the bottom of each section. It would solve a few problems:

1. When is a console too obscure to be in the article? 2. The amount of dates has proliferated in the article to the point where some sections are becoming unreadable.

I haven't gone through the effort to add one for each section because of a concern I have. These tables would eventually take up a decent chunk of the page. Will that improve the article's overall readability? I'm also worried that would overlap with articles that simply list every game console.

Either way, if you like the idea and would like to add the tables to other sections, please use the existing one as a template. If it's not good enough in some way, please fix it and then use it as a template. All the tables will have to be done in a similar style for this to look clean. Also, list the consoles in order of most units shipped. For example: PS2, Xbox, Gamecube, Dreamcast even if the Dreamcast was first chronologically or the Xbox had the biggest controller. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.181.39.123 (talk) 08:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

PC Engine CD-ROM was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TurboGrafx-16#TurboGrafx-CD The article should be edited to clarify.

The Amiga CD32 was first stand alone CD-based console (i.e. not an add-on). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.161.61 (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Can't use other Wikipedia articles as sources. MIVP (I Can Help? ◕‿◕) - ^{(Chocolate Cakes)} 20:13, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I only see that statement made under the "Optical Media" section. If you read over the whole section it's really a bit jumbled. After the first two sentences it veers off into a haphazard layout of jargon and dates. You're quite welcome to rewrite the whole bit, because right now it reads as is if was (and probably was) written by different people at different dates. -Robert — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.181.39.123 (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

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A user has placed a request for renaming all of the Generations pages (eg, History of video game consoles (third generation) → Third generation of video game consoles). See talk:History of video game consoles (third generation)#Requested_move_9_November_2015 BcRIPster (talk) 01:23, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

The video game crash of 1977 redirects to thsi page, but no mention is made of that in the history; only the crash of 1983 is mentioned. StarHOG (talk) 16:42, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Crash of 1977 was removed from the article as it was unsourced. -- ferret (talk) 16:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Wondering cause it was put in 8th — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.91.99.69 (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

It shouldn't be in either yet. Discussions on where it should be placed are on-going. The main issue is that its placement needs to be in-line with what third party reliable sources (journalists, professional writers, etc) place it, and so far, they're not consistently placing it in either... Sergecross73 msg me 22:00, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

So many outlets are talking about it being the "successor the Wii should of had" and some are even calling it a successor to the 3DS and 2DS. Because it is a hybrid console of middle-ground performance, it is really a question of where it should go. Along with the Switch are the Sony PS4 Pro and Microsoft Scorpio, both are more powerful than their predecessors, in fact the Scorpio so far doesn't share a name with the original Xbox One, and Scorpio is going to be leaps and bounds more powerful than the Xbox One and PS4 Pro. So far a lot of lines have been blurred. Ptwinters (talk) 10:56, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

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How is there no mention of the Vectrex on this page? is it gen 2 or 3?

While it might be early, it's an inevitable discussion to be had. Given the information we currently have about Quest, would it fit into this page? It's not a headset that requires a separate computer device to function (it's a standalone console that is designed for gaming). Would this mark the first Virtual Reality game console? Sucoleo (talk) 10:09, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

It'll all depend on how reliable sources classify it. We don't make the classifications ourselves on Wikipedia, we just go by what the industry typically says. It'll be something to keep an eye on though, for sure. Sergecross73 msg me 12:30, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Which console was built into a small television and had a cartridge slot under it like atari games?

What were the VHS games called they played in the VCR and had a remote that came out of the VCR tape thru the slot where the VHS tape went into the VCR. I vividly remember playing a version similar to Star Wars Destorying the Death Star in an X wing. It was around the time Transformers or Gundams came out before the similar Power Rangers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C51:7001:200:C4BF:BB5:BFC8:C32F (talk) 05:34, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Please add information about the Atari VCS, a future console that will be launch in December of 2019. DavidChac (talk) 12:10, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

So I've been working this article and there's clearly a need to combine and rework content across several articles because of duplication and inconsistent handling of material between them.

Below I'm going to lay out what I think the affected articles and structure should be:

• Video game console - Keep but refocus - This should be a general article that describes the concept of a console (home + handheld) and touch on major components of each with links to the relevant pages. So there would be brief section on controllers (briefly touching on joysticks, d-pads, thumbsticks, motion controls, touchscreens, and others), game media (as there is already), and storage media (save cards and external HDDs of the newer consoles) while there would also be a section on the "console" itself generally talking about inputs, outputs, and common on-board functionality (CPU, GPU, etc.). In other words, this section would start to mirror what fields there are in {{infobox information appliance}} or what in the various comparison tables. Some of this is content already present in Console game and would be brought into here.
• History of video game consoles - New w/ material from Video game console - This is currently a redirect to History of video games. I am suggesting we replace the redirect with the current history section from the current version of Video game console. (Later we may trim back on the console-stuff in the History of video games, but otherwise, I would not touching that for now). As noted in this, I've found a lot of recent information that talks of the problems Wikipedia has inserted into defining generations - not that no one else has a consistent scheme either - so I'm not changing that but otherwise we present the consoles - both home and handheld - this way. This naturally gives lead to the Generation articles eg First generation of video game consoles. To stress, this article should provide a timeline at a high level of the broad changes in the field, the prior versions (and some of the articles below) at a history level give far too detailed info on console specs that have no practical relevance to the big history picture. We want to identify the bit wars, the crash and Nintendo's jump on that, the impact of optical disc, the transition to Internet machines, etc. So this has been rewritten with a focus on the big picture, knowing the details on console specifics are at the console pages and generation pages.
• Home video game console - Merge to Video game console - mostly duplication of the current version of Video game console , the generation articles, and the console articles. save for the top table. I am proposing after merging that top table into the new History of video game consoles to redirect that to Video game console. (The fact this is mostly unsourced is part of the reason for merging) We will still have List of home video game consoles.
• Handheld game console - Merge to Video game console - almost mostly duplication of the current version of Video game console, the generation articles, the handheld articles, and of the electronic games article. Same thing, merge anything else relevant and redirect to Video game console. We would still keep List of handheld game consoles.
• Console game - Keep, but with reorganization of some above content - This is mostly fine but the content related to the consoles "Technology" can go to the proposed Video game console section, and at the same time, the stuff about Game media can be shifted to there. In other words, I need to touch this a bit but not too much.
• Dedicated console, Microconsole, and Handheld TV game - Redirect to Video game console - These are very short, mostly unsourced articles that once the above steps are taken, can easily be covered in Video game console. There are lists associated with these, these would not be touched at this point.

I do note that we should try to make the two lists (home and handheld) somewhat consistent in terms of format but that's not a major part of this reorg I am proposing. I'd like to see if there are any major objections to this before doing so. --Masem (t) 15:01, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Without going too deep on this, as I won't be doing the heavy lifting, the general proposal has my support -- ferret (talk) 15:19, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support - same as ferret. Sergecross73 msg me 15:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• Having looked over the articles, I support this. Makes a lot more sense intrinsically I think and helps cut down on some weird overlap. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 16:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• OPPOSE Handheld game console is different, most/all of the content is different. Information is not all in List of handheld game consoles or Comparison of handheld game consoles. Dream Focus 16:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Ouch. Since we're discussing this, merge Comparison of handheld game consoles to List of handheld game consoles too, most duplication with details that are not discussed by reliable secondary sources. Most of our various "technical details of console XYZ" have been merged or deleted on the same grounds. -- ferret (talk) 17:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• I've looked at Handheld game console. The most unique facets of that page that absolutely need to be kept somewhere (likely in my proposed History of video game consoles) are the "Origins" section (which is really the only sourced section) in the article) and "Beginnings". Everything else is presented as "Handheld - here is when it was introduced, here's its feature set". Nothing that tries to capture trends or the like, and nothing unique that's not already on the individual handheld games. So all the information will be retained somewhere - if not already present in some form already. --Masem (t) 17:38, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• And thinking on this more, this would give me a further reorg on the history article, separating an "origins" section for both the home console (Spacewar->Arcade Computer Space->Arcade Pong->Home Pong/Odyssey), and the handheld (Electro-mechanical games -> LED games -> LCD games -> handheld/Game&Watch), and then have the generation/history separately. This gives me even more assurance that I can collaspe in the quality material from Handheld game console w/o any major losses. --Masem (t) 17:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• SUPPORT. All caps means my opinion counts more, right? I think the concept of "handheld game console" can be adequately covered in the new game console article as described by Masem. The current handheld article is a blow-by-blow of every handheld every manufacturer decided to put out, which seems like a duplication of the purpose of List of handhelds. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• Additional comment Dedicated console should be considered within this reworking as well, as well as microconsole. Both are weakly sourced articles that differ mainly on only two fronts: The lack of media or reliance on packed in games, or a small size factor (often overlapping with the former). -- ferret (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree on both points- also coming off Dedicated console, what about Handheld TV game? I feel that's the same (but not the lists, those can stay separate). --Masem (t) 18:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
    • Unsourced listicle/stubicle. Can be redirected to a section discussing the various types/formats of video game consoles. Their history (or lack of) is not independent. In all cases, the "Lists" are fine to remain, though I find the microconsole concept and list in general to be problematic as the media never quite settled on a definition for it. -- ferret (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• Additional additional comment Not a suggestion to merge, but Console game may need some clean up and reorg to better reflect changes occurring in the broader articles. -- ferret (talk) 19:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Good point, I've added that as part of the method of attack to the above and will drop notes there. (as well as the three to be redirected/merged) --Masem (t) 19:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Sensible. Godspeed. I additionally question the benefit of having console game split out of video game or video game console—not sure what it uniquely covers that doesn't belong verbatim in the others, same as handheld game currently redirecting to handheld game console. czar 22:04, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
  • On that note, if console game is pushed towards a merge with video game, so should PC game. -- ferret (talk) 22:32, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
    • I have to think about that more. I can see an article somewhere about broad changes in games history and the console game changes (from block to sprite/tile to primitive 3D to more fleshed out 3D etc.) would be different from PC games (where there wasn't any unified direction like that because of the massive variety of tech) with their history now only recently merging to be nearly equivalent. But I would not want to try to do right now while focusing on trying to untangle the issue on console hardware mess. --Masem (t) 22:49, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
      • I'd rescope PC game to PC gaming (currently a redirect)—it has some parallel history with consoles but its sections, sources, trends are largely distinct. czar 05:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support per others, including the other articles ferret and Czar brought up. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 03:38, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
• Barring any other major opposes, I'm going to plan to start doing this tomorrow. --Masem (t) 18:23, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I feel there are no citations or evidence to support categorizing the consoles into "generations" the way it has been done. I feel Wikipedia editors completely made-up these concepts of "generations."

It may have been a little less controversial in the past since most major consoles released at around the same time at a similar cadence. However, Nintendo does not seem to be following the same release cadence anymore. The categorization of consoles into "generations" is completely arbitrary. Who decides what generation the Nintendo Switch goes in? Who determines what a ninth generation console is? A Wikipedia editor completely makes this up? Where are the source citations for these categorizations?

These categorizations also feel like marketing language in that one console would be a "generation" ahead of another generation. Why is the PS5 and XBox Series X/S labeled "Current" but the Nintendo Switch is not, even though it's Nintendo's latest most current console? I feel it's bias and not up to Wikipedia editors to categorize video game consoles like this.

ProfessionalCost (talk) 22:34, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

We are fully aware that in the past in the creation of these articles, these generations were created somewhat arbitrarily, and in fact, that's been pointed out academically, see History of video game consoles#Console generations for a discussion of this issue.

At this point, we're going by how the sources generally are discussed and compared by journalists. With the Switch, it has been compared to the Xbox One and PS4. With the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S out, it may still be compared to them, so it may be in both generations. We'll have to see, hence why we're not rushing to create 9th gen until we know how this is going to be framed. --Masem (t) 22:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I would consider that to violate the Wikipedia no original research/synthesis rules - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material . It would be considered "analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." (i.e. the conclusion that a certain console is categorized in a certain generation, while another is categorized in a lower generation)

Though no offense to you or others who have worked hard on these articles. I know it's difficult coming up with a good solution on this. I hope you all can take this into account when trying to figure out a neutral solution to this. -- ProfessionalCost (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

You’re not bringing up anything new. We know, and others have brought it up before too. Unfortunately, other issues keep us in a stalemate. We need to operate under the direction of WP:CONSENSUS when it comes to making changes, and no one can ever agree on a path forward. And that’s partially because there’s really no other established way to measure the history of video games. And efforts to delete them don’t work either, because there’s never a consensus that something as big as this is “not notable”. If you have interest in devising a new solution nones ever thought of that doesn’t violate policy, garnering a massive discussion to find a consensus among many people with differing opinions, and then taking part in a massive effortbregarding the reorganizing and rewriting the entire history video games, by all means, go for it. But it’s would be a massive effort and commitment. Which is why we just work on what we’ve got. Sergecross73 msg me 23:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

That's fair. I feel most other articles would instead go by decade/century, such as the Timeline of computing article. That's just off the top of my head. I know many people are resistant to change and I understand it would not be easy to make the change.

I know these articles were created a long time ago, but if these articles never existed and they had to be written from scratch, nowadays I don't think most people would choose to arbitrarily categorize consoles into these made-up "generations". I feel Wikipedia is a bit more strict about this nowadays. So while it may have passed and was less controversial before, it seems wrong to arbitrarily state some consoles are in the made-up 8th generation category while these others are in a separate made-up "Current"/9th generation category. It almost seems like marketing language to say one console is a generation ahead of another or that one is not "Current".

Though I never saw any huge discussion on this topic on any of the Talk pages I looked at, so I just wanted to mention it. -- ProfessionalCost (talk) 01:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

There's a reason we are being cautious on calling anything 9th gen as we don't want to create the problem we already know we created. We're planning on waiting until the consoles are out and then seeing if they are spoken in the same breath as the existing ones or clearly considered a new generation as well as how the Switch is positioned. They *could* be eighth generation consoles, but likely they will end up as ninth. --Masem (t) 02:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The problem is, whether it was original arbitrary or not, and no matter what role Wikipedia editors had in designing the current generational structure, sources ran with it. Reliable sources can be found discussing consoles in the same general groups and generations that Wikipedia uses. We know it's citogenesis. We know they got it from here. But once they started using it, it was essentially out of the bottle. So the best we can do is try not to jump the gun early and define the next generation for them. -- ferret (talk) 02:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Please see WT:VG#The dreaded 9th Gen discussion... to discuss if we should consider going forward with calling out the 9th generation of video game consoles. --Masem (t) 01:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The current Introductory prices table reads like trivia right now absent prose to explain its importance. It might be better replaced by a table comparing, in broad strokes, the differences in generational processing power as illustrated here (and referenced on the prior page). (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 04:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

The table is meant to be alongside the pricing and competition section language to support that. I've moved it down so it lines up better. I'm actually considering a possible separate article for Video game console generation to headline off the series of generation articles if we are trying to do what has been proposed at WT:VG where we try to do a non-generation timeline for hardware, and leave the generations to focus on the key consoles tied to that generation. Then a table of the general hardware specs would be appropriate in this generation article. --Masem (t) 14:12, 16 January 2021 (UTC)