Talk:Xiongnu/Archive 4

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Saksanokhor belt plaque

पाटलिपुत्र recently restored an image of a golden belt-buckle from Saksanokhur, Tajikistan, which I had previously removed, per a talk page discussion at Talk:Huns in which there was no clear consensus that the object represented a Xiongnu.

The creator of that discussion was Mark Palo.Alto/Dirk0001, a banned sockmaster. पाटलिपुत्र has essentially revived their selective interpretation of the source, which does not support a "probable" Xiongnu origin and also mentions several ethnic attributes depicted on the buckle, which are associated with the Yuezhi, Saka, Pazyryk culture, etc, rather than Xiongnu. For example the cited reference from Francfort says We note on the one hand that the tail of the horse is taken in a sheath, like those of the mounts of the steppe riders and that we notice in the Altai (in the kurgans of Pazyryk, Berel' and others) and on the coins of the Indo-Scythians and Heraos 68." and the four comma-shaped ornaments of the boar's mane, intended to receive inlays, of turquoise for example, reinforce the analogies with Tillya Tépa and the art of the steppes up to that of Khokhlatch...". The author also said the details of the realia (harness, costume, hairstyle) are nevertheless unquestionably steppe, of the Xiongnu type or Yuezhi (?), which further attests that this is object and its depiction are ethnically ambiguous, possibly but not probably belonging to the Xiongnu or the Yuezhi.

Furthermore, no other source seems to link this object to the Xiongnu, while plenty have made other attempts to link it to the Saka or Yuezhi, notably by its relation to the Orlat plaques:

From Sims, 2002, page 9:

10. "The Boar Hunter," gold repoussè belt buckle from Saksanakhur in Northern Bactria, first century However, objects bearing similar themes have been widely diffused, both west of Iran and east of the country, where they appear in conjuction with typically nomadic features, such as the horn plaques and buckles with engraved decoration recovered from a nomad grave in Orlat, in Sogdiana. The buckles have intricate and crowded figural scenes, on which fighting and hunting episodes include neither kings nor heroes, whereas the latter are the primary and almost indispensible subjects of epic tales and thsir illustrations. The simple representation of fighting or hunting, devoid of epic or historical content, must also have been thought to bring good fortune to the hunter-warrior, for finds from Bactrian locations include a gold buckle decorated with a nomad horseman spearing a boar, from Saksanakhur (Fig. 10) and a horn plaque with several hunters on horseback shooting at wild rams, found at Takht-i Sangin...

From Ilyasov, 1998 p.127:

A relevent item for iconographical comparison is the cast gold belt-buckle, representing the hunting of wild boar, found in Saksanokhur, South Tajikistan [ DT, 1985, No.324). The image on this belt-buckle represents a rider striking a wild boar with a spear (pl.IX: 4). The manner in which he sits on his horse is similar to that depicted in the Orlat images: with the toe of the right foot of the rider turned downwards. There are also a number of similar details: style of representing the mane with a forelock, a cover put on the upper part of the horse's tail, falars suspended from the under-tail belt of the horse, and a tasseled horse harness. The belt-buckle from Saksanohkur is dated to the 1st - 2nd centuries A.D. [ Shedevry, 1983, p.34; DT, 1985, p.117] In our opinion, the data on the structure and orientation of the burial, the most likely orientation of the deceased , the armament type as well as the analogies with the armour from Khalchayan and the golden buckle from Saksanokhur complement the information given by the scabbard slide and confirm our datation of the Orlat plates.

From Gruber et. al 2012, p.367:

Another example would be the belt buckle from Saksanokhur (Southern Tajikistan). Cast in solid gold it is dated to the 1st-2nd centuries AD.29 Here too, a cymatium serves as orna- mental border surrounding a mounted warrior hunting a boar with a spear (Fig. 22). 29 Shedevrÿ 1983, 34; Zeïmal’ 1985, 117; Hansen et alii 2009, 343, No. 222.

From Olbrycht, 2015 p.340:

The phalerae on the Orlat plates are like the ones on the Saksanokhur buckle (1st–2nd centuriesCE; Ilyasov 2003, 286). A connection between the Orlat plates and Kangju, a nomadic dominion with a Saka substratum, but under a strong cultural influence from China, is clearly discernible (Ilyasov 2003, 296–299). In the 1st and 2nd centuries CE Sogdiana was under Kangju domination.

...note also that all 4 of these sources say that this belt buckle is from at least the 1st century AD. Gruber, Ilyasov and Obrycht all say it is from the 1st-2nd century AD, and Gruber cites 3 other authors to this effect. पाटलिपुत्र says that this belt buckle is from the 2nd-1st century BC, but like the interpretation that it is "probably" Xiongnu, this is definitely mistaken.

It is really clear from Francfort and the sources I've posted here that this is an ethnically ambiguous depiction of dubious origin. It is also dated to the era when the Xiongnu empire was dead and gone. I don't understand why anyone would want to use this picture as a "probable" Xiongnu depiction, when the sources are so vague and uncertain of its provenence, especially when so many of them tentatively link it to non-Xiongnu cultures, without relating it to the Xiongnu at all. - Hunan201p (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Hunan201p:. None of your sources seem to make any particular assertion regarding the culture to which the horserider belongs, besides describing him as a nomadic horseman. The parallels with the Orlat Plaques are rather anecdotal. For my part, I have been following Francfort, Henri-Paul (2020). "Sur quelques vestiges et indices nouveaux de l'hellénisme dans les arts entre la Bactriane et le Gandhāra (130 av. J.-C.-100 apr. J.-C. environ)". Journal des Savants: 35–39. to the letter, in writing the latest caption ("Probable Xiongnu-related horserider, hunting a boar. The rider wears the steppe dress, his hair is tied into a hairbun characteristic of the oriental steppes, and his horse has characteristically Xiongnu horse trappings"). Francfort writes:

"A renowned openwork gold plate found on the surface of the site depicts a wild boar hunt at the spear by a rider in steppe dress, in a frame of ovals arranged in cells intended to receive inlays (fig. 14). We can today attribute it to a local craft whose intention was to satisfy a horserider patron originating from the distant steppes and related to the Xiongnu" (French: "On peut aujourd’hui l’attribuer à un art local dont l’intention était de satisfaire un patron cavalier originaire des steppes lointaines et apparenté aux Xiongnu.")
"We can also clearly distinguish the crupper adorned with three rings forming a chain, as well as, on the shoulder of the mount, a very recognizable clip-shaped pendant, suspended from a chain passing in front of the chest and going up to the pommel of the saddle, whose known parallels are not to be found among the Scythians but in the realm of the Xiongnu, on bronze plaques from Mongolia and China" (French: "les parallèles connus ne se trouvent pas chez les Scythes mais dans le domaine des Xiongnu").
"The hairstyle of the hunter, with long hair pulled back and gathered in a bun, is found at Takht-i Sangin; it is that of the eastern steppes, which can be seen on the plates wild boar hunting “des Iyrques” (fig. 15)"
The proposed date (2nd-1st century BC) is given p.39 by Francfort. I note that other authors tend to give 1st century AD - 2nd century AD dates, but since the Xiongnu existed until circa 155 AD, none of the dates given by these authors are in contradiction with the Xiongnu hypothesis anyway... you cannot say "It is also dated to the era when the Xiongnu empire was dead and gone"...

Francfort is the most recent (2020) and one of the most authoritative of our sources here. Maybe we could attribute his opinion if you wish, and explain that most authors simply present him as a rider of the steppes, and that there are slight variations in the datation... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@पाटलिपुत्र: I think it's highly unlikely that you were able to read and analyze the sources I posted here in the 15 minutes that it took for you to revert me.

If none of my sources make any particular assertion regarding the culture to which the horserider belongs; then that should tell us that there is no consensus for its "probable Xiongju origin" among scholars.

You say that Francfort is the "most recent" and "authoritative" among of these scholars, yet Olbrycht and Gruber appear in his references. Without any evidence at all provided by Francfort for his date of 2nd-1st BC, this would appear to be anecdotal at best, but more probably erroneous. Your WP:RECENTISM source from Francfort doesn't trump the several years of secondary sources all citing a date of 1st-2nd century AD for this belt buckle.

I find it strange you are continuing to cherry-pick Francfort to imply that he declared a "probable Xiongnu origin", when he really said that it could be Xiongnu or Yuezhi (?), and pointed out the rider's numerous other similarities with Yuezhi, Indo-Scythians and the Pazyryk culture, such as:

"We note on the one hand that the tail of the horse is taken in a sheath, like those of the mounts of the steppe riders and that we notice in the Altai (in the kurgans of Pazyryk, Berel' and others) and on the coins of the Indo-Scythians and Heraos 68."
"In addition, the four comma-shaped ornaments of the boar's mane, intended to receive inlays, of turquoise for example, reinforce the analogies with Tillya Tépa and the art of the steppes up to that of Khokhlatch..."
"the details of the harness, costume hairstyle, are nevertheless unquestionably steppe, of the Xiongnu or Yuezhi(?) type. In this sense... It corresponds to the mixed and complex Greco-Oriental art of Tylla Tepa."
A recent third opinion request resulted in all three participants agreeing to remove this image from Huns based on the ambiguity of Francfort's statements, and its unclear origin.

Instead of attributing this mess, the best thing to do is just yank the image of the dubious belt buckle, which is of trivial importance to the article, especially since you're looking at 4 or 5 sources from various experts who do not support Francfort's contentions, vs 1 ambiguous Francfort. To attribute anything here would lend undue weight to Francfort.

And really, why do you insist on using this image? Why is it so important to you? - Hunan201p (talk) 22:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

It is simply an exceptional photograph of an extremely well-known artifact, which offers one of the rare precise depictions of a steppe nomad in the time period, and a possible direct depiction of a Xiongnu per Francfort, which is very relevant for our article. I note that none of your sources make any precise interpretation of the Saksanakhur beltbuckle (besides pointing to similarites with the Orlat plaques or the Tillya Tepe artifacts, which are the focus of their studies), and none gives an interpretation about the rider, so they are basically irrelevant for our purpose (except indeed for the datation).... How about the following caption, taking into account the various sources:

A nomad horseman spearing a boar, discovered in Saksanokhur, South Tajikistan, 1st-2nd century CE.^[1]^[2] According to Francfort, the plate may have been made for a patron related to the Xiongnu, and may be dated to the 2nd-1st century BC. The rider wears the steppe dress, his hair is tied into a hairbun characteristic of the oriental steppes, and his horse has characteristically Xiongnu horse trappings.^[3]

पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:12, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

References

[1]
Marshak, Boris Ilʹich (1 January 2002). Peerless Images: Persian Painting and Its Sources. Yale University Press. p. 9. ISBN 978-0-300-09038-3.
[2]
Ilyasov, Jangar. "A Study on the Bone Plates from Orlat // Silk Road Art and Archaeology. Vol. 5. Kamakura, 1997/98, 107-159": 127. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
[3]
Francfort, Henri-Paul (2020). "Sur quelques vestiges et indices nouveaux de l'hellénisme dans les arts entre la Bactriane et le Gandhāra (130 av. J.-C.-100 apr. J.-C. environ)". Journal des Savants: 35–39. Page 36: "A renowned openwork gold plate found on the surface of the site depicts a wild boar hunt at the spear by a rider in steppe dress, in a frame of ovals arranged in cells intended to receive inlays (fig. 14). We can today attribute it to a local craft whose intention was to satisfy a horserider patron originating from the distant steppes and related to the Xiongnu" (French: "On peut aujourd'hui l'attribuer à un art local dont l'intention était de satisfaire un patron cavalier originaire des steppes lointaines et apparenté aux Xiongnu.")
Page 36: "We can also clearly distinguish the crupper adorned with three rings forming a chain, as well as, on the shoulder of the mount, a very recognizable clip-shaped pendant, suspended from a chain passing in front of the chest and going up to the pommel of the saddle, whose known parallels are not to be found among the Scythians but in the realm of the Xiongnu, on bronze plaques from Mongolia and China" (French: "les parallèles connus ne se trouvent pas chez les Scythes mais dans le domaine des Xiongnu").
Page 38: "The hairstyle of the hunter, with long hair pulled back and gathered in a bun, is also found at Takht-i Sangin; it is that of the eastern steppes, which can be seen on the wild boar hunting plaque "des Iyrques" (fig. 15)" (French: La coiffure du chasseur, aux longs cheveux tirés en arrière et rassemblés en chignon, se retrouve à Takht-i Sangin; C'est celle des steppes orientales, que l'on remarque sur les plaques de la chasse au sanglier «des Iyrques» (fig. 15))

Talk:Xiongnu/Archive 4

Saksanokhor belt plaque

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