Talk:Yoga/Archive 8

This is regarding the reverted version 580462994, as outlined here - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yoga&action=historysubmit&diff=580921871&oldid=580860256. I understand that the mispronunciation of योग as योगा needs to be proven via citation(s).

In case one is a native speaker and keeps oneself updated about the world (via travel or news), one would know that योग is being frequently mispronounced as योगा, usually by non-native speakers and seldom by urbanized natives. The mispronunciation is widespread and the audience of Wikipedia, a layman, needs to be educated on the pronunciation, because mispronunciation is widespread and it changes meaning. Expecting the layman to understand that the trailing "a" is not to be phonetically confused with आ ā is an unduly challenging expectation on the layman. It is but natural for a layman to pronounce "Yoga" as योगा, and "Yog" as योग. In case I have done a good job of elaborating the rationale, the world may be a better place if the revert is restored. In case the citations are still required as a technicality, please allow me to suggest a simple test, which one may conduct without any special apparatus or conditions. 1) Get a native speaker to pronounce योग OR Listen to pronunciation^ⓘ - mark the lacking "aa" sound in the end. 2) Use your favourite search engine for any audio-visual occurrence of योग, and listen to the pronunciation. Note the number of occurrences of mainstream mispronunciations. (An indicative search yields http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000201897, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17015429 et al containing mispronunciations). I hope to rest my case regarding citations with this simple test.

This brings me to the larger issue regarding mispronunciations of Devnagari words. An incorrect pronunciation changes the meaning of the word - It is विवेकानंद not विवेकानंदा, राम not रामा, योग not योगा (Apologies to the non-natives for using devnagari for quoting examples in the preceding sentence, but there is a very high probability that you will mispronounce if you do not fully understand IAST). Wikipedia's selection of IAST for transliteration has resulted in an entirely unintended but extremely harmful consequence - mispronunciations. I wish to propose adopting a transliteration scheme that does not assist in widespread mispronunciation of native words. Our audience is a layman, not the phonetically literate who understands the phonetic difference between a and ā - I wager that many reading this talk page would also not know the difference. It is imperative that we shine a bright light on mispronunciations and propagate the correct pronunciations, and thus correct meanings. If this may not be the appropriate forum, I would request the more learned folks on this talk page to raise this in the right forum, and share the link to the correct forum on this talk page, so that the conversation could be taken to its logical conclusion.

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Additional explanation by Piyush: The current popular pronunciation of Yoga in western culture is certainly incorrect. The confusion started due to difference in writing systems of Latin and Devanagari. Devanagari is an Alphasyllabary (Abugida) system where Consonants and Vowels are combined to form a unit while Latin is an Alphabetic system where Consonants and Vowels have equal status. The detailed explanation is probably beyond the scope of this page and would probably be worthy of its own page. But this is a widely known fact to the Hindi(native)-English bilingual people and it applies to some other words as well e.g., Rama, Krishna, Vivekananda, etc.

The correct pronunciation of Yoga is actually Yog (/ˈjoʊɡ/). I am a native speaker of Hindi and can confirm that this pronunciation^ⓘ should be the correct pronunciation of Yoga.

Since this word is widely mispronounced in popular western culture, this page describes it incorrectly with a biased pronunciation. In order to educate readers, it makes sense to mention that "the word is frequently mispronounced", along with the correct native pronunciation. This will make the description of pronunciation unbiased to a particular region and the reader can decide which pronunciation they want to continue with.

Piyush.bigboss (talk) 00:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: You are wrong. "Yoga" isn't Hindi, it's Sanskrit. And there's no offglide in the long vowel, it's IPA: [joːgə]. Finally, you blatantly ignored the instructions: "This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. 'Please change X' is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form 'please change X to Y'." Ogress _smash! 00:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

       (a) Type or copy-paste योग on a translator (e.g., Google translator), which is how one would write "Yoga" in Devanagari script (irrespective of Hindi or Sanskrit) and then listen to its pronunciation.[1] You will notice the difference! The pronunciation of योग by Google translator is the correct pronunciation.
       (b) If we write what has been pronounced in this audio file using Devanagari then it will be written as - योगा. This word does not exist in Sanskrit and can be verified from two different sources. One is a Sanskrit wiktionary page where you can find योग but योगा is absent.[2]  Another is the Monier-Williams Sanskrit English Dictionary where the word योग[3] exists but योगा does not exist.
       (c) The original poster of this topic provided the audio file that has correct pronunciationⓘ.

       (a) The first step is to use योग as source word instead of Yoga to arrive at correct IPA because the word is from Sanskrit and it doesn't make sense to use its compromised english equivalent to identify correct IPA. This will also remove the biggest reason of mispronunciation - The apparent long vowel in the end. Please understand that there is no long vowel in this word.
       (b)The word योग is made of two consonants and one vowel, i.e., य+ओ+ग(consonant+vowel+consonant). Although, technically in Devanagari it can be further divided and described to be formed of two consonants and two vowels i.e., य्+ओ+ग्+अ (consonant+vowel+consonant+vowel). Again, Note that there is no long vowel in this.
       (c) Next, use the table on IPA for Sanskrit page - य = j, ओ = oː, ग = g. Now put all this together and you'll get IPA: [joːg]. This should be the correct IPA for yoga in its "Root Form".
       (d) However, when this word is used "in fine composition" [4] or "at the end of a compound" then the IPA changes slightly to IPA: [joːgə].

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Reference 276: Can you please add a link to the free ebook of the quoted "Freedom of Religion under Bills of Rights"? This is the URL: http://www.adelaide.edu.au/press/titles/freedom-religion/ JulsKeller (talk) 00:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Such a link is inappropriate, violating WP:EL, WP:SOAP, WP:SPAM. --Ronz (talk) 01:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks. - Kautilya3 (talk) 01:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The original Yoga tradition, its theory and practice--traditional here pertains to that knowledge of Yoga where the source of Consciousness is the ultimate experience--is spoken and elaborated upon even in the earliest Veda, the Rig Veda. See the writings of David Frawley. Also, considering the traditional understanding of Kundalini and its place within the heart of the Yogic tradition, said to be residing within the root cakra, Muladhara, (as well as the identification of that Kundalini with OM, the Brahman--see Yoga Chudamani Upanishad--and Para Vac, the supreme word--see the writings of Jaidev Singh, especially his introduction of the Shiva Sutras) it would only follow that origin of Yoga is the Kundalini itself; and as follows the original purpose of Yoga practice should been seen in this light as well--see the Hatha Yoga Pradipika of Yogi Swatmarama. Aghoradas (talk) 18:59, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

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The audio pronunciation of the word 'Yoga' is incorrect. The correct one has been uploaded by me as a .wav file(please check my uploads). Source:

Pronunciation of the word 'ustrasana'

Baba Ramdev is a renowned Yoga guru. the word 'Yoga' is pronunced in a way similar to how the word 'ustrasana' is pronounced in the video.

Sapan.sharma9 (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

 Not done There is no indication that "yoga" should be pronounced differently than the article currently states. /wia /tlk 04:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Guru Ramdev pronounces things in Hindi. He does not claim in this video that he is using correct sanskrit pronunciation. He is simply speaking 'hindiized' sanskrit. Not unlike when an American says Des Moines or Illinois without following french phonetics. Hindi follows schwa deletion rules and sanskrit does not, creating this issue. The way anyone pronounces a term in vernacular does not change the simple phonetic rules of sanskrit, which have been discussed at length already on this talk page. 'Yog' would be spelled with a 'ग्' not a 'ग' in sanskrit. It is only in later Indo-Aryan languages that rule changes. 'ग' will always be pronounced as 'gə' in sanskrit. Again I point to the page Help:IPA for Sanskrit where it is clearly shown that a short 'a' (even if it is a final 'a') is still pronounced as a schwa and transliterated into IPA as such.

ə

अ, प

a

tomorrow

Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 07:40, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

One of the aspects in which Hindi differs from its ancestor language Sanskrit is in its pronunciation. Hindi discards some grammatically correct features of Sanskrit, the most prominent of which is the schwa deletion, which means that any 'a' ('अ') vowel modulating the last alphabet or following another alphabet ending with an 'a' ('अ') sound in a word, is discarded. This makes Hindi/ Urdu more fluid to speak that Sanskrit. But, at the same time, this also makes Hindi lose some of Sanskrit's scientific grammatical features. It makes written and spoken forms different, as in, what a person writes in Hindi need not necessarily guide him/ her to its correct Hindi pronunciation. Whereas, in Sanskrit, this is not the case and one can easily and correctly pronounce words if he/ she knows how to read.

In the case of 'Yoga', the most accurate pronunciation is 'Yoga' ('योग​'), as is pronounced in Sanskrit. This is done by ending the 'g' with an 'a' ('अ'), which means that the word 'Yoga' does not abruptly end at a 'g' ('ग्'), but at a 'g' ('ग्') modulated by 'a' ('अ').

The most inaccurate pronunciation, which is also the most widely used across India, is 'Yogaa' ('योगा'). This pronunciation is an outcome of poor transliteration of words written in native Indian scripts to Roman script, due to poor usage of phonetics. It is ridiculous for someone to pronounce it this way!

The pronunciation used in Hindi is 'Yog', which if written in Sanskrit would read as 'योग्' (mind the 'halant' used under 'ग​'). But in Hindi, it is still written as 'योग​', betraying the significance of 'halant' and 'mool varn', which are such important concepts in Sanskrit grammar!! This is what differentiates Hindi from Sanskrit and makes the former much less scientific and accurate that its ancestor language.

--therash09 (talk) 16:48, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

@Manpoudar: Websites such as enepaltrekking.com, tushitanepal.com and isha.sadhguru.org/blog/yoga-meditation/history-of-yoga/the-first-yogi/ are non-WP:RS. The lead and main article already mention Vedic period, etc. There is no need to repeat. We need scholarly sources before we can add claims that Yoga originated in the Himalayas. This main Yoga article of wikipedia needs to stick to scholarly WP:RS. The lead must summarize the key points of the main article per WP:LEAD. Please discuss your proposed bold changes to the lead and gain consensus per WP:BRD. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:37, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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This article is not consistent with sources I've encountered on the topic:

https://gimletmedia.com/episode/18-yoga/

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/06/01/411202468/those-yoga-poses-may-not-be-ancient-after-all-and-maybe-thats-ok

I don't have time to incorporate these right now--but hope someone can take a swing at it.

-Dan Eisenberg (talk) 23:17, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

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SuryaN (talk) 14:27, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 14:31, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

@Nishanth nair: I have removed this contribution of yours. This main article on Yoga should rely on mainstream, widely held scholarly views on yoga. The book you added, though published by HarperCollins, is still WP:Primary. You may want to add it to the wiki article on Sadhguru, but it is fringe to allege Yoga's history traces back to 15,000 years. If someone alleges Yoga is 15,000,000 or 15,000,000,000 years old... sorry, it does not belong here. You need to provide evidence that such views are mainstream, verifiable in secondary and tertiary sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:12, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Related. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.239.214.109 (talk) 23:11, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

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Please remoove the DMOZ link from External Link Section as it is showing Error Page. Nixancrasto (talk) 04:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 07:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Logged in members, please include this reference^[1] on page 34 of [http://chapter.intach.org/pdf/haryana-16.pdf "The depiction of a yogi in many seals and terracotta figurines performing yogic asanas shown that the yogic philosophy has been existing in India since the Harappan times. Pipal tree - considered sacred and associated with Siva – was depicted in Harappan pottery as found"] to denote Indus Valley Civilization origin of yoga. Thanks. 2404:E800:E61E:452:7835:ABF1:C9FA:A4B9 (talk) 21:40, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Discussed many times before; no. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:09, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

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For more details, please refer to yogaispossible.com 173.39.64.255 (talk) 05:53, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

 Not done unreliable/spam. Alexbrn (talk) 05:55, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support with caveat. I don't mind the merge as long as the sources are solid (requires verification), but the title of physiology associated with yoga is not valid or supportable, so should not follow the article if the merge is agreed upon. Physiology is an established branch of medicine and a field of basic and clinical science, none of which applies to the sources in the Yoga physiology article. WP:MEDRS sources are required to support effects on physiology (there is none for yoga). Kvng: you did not state your reasons for objecting to my deletion request, so these should be stated here according to WP:DEPROD. --Zefr (talk) 17:41, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I deprodded because I didn't see indication that a merge was given ample consideration as an alternative WP:BEFORE proposed deletion. If there is consensus that there is no salvageable material here I will support deletion at WP:AFD. ~Kvng (talk) 15:14, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: Is there really anything relevant – sources or content – in the old version of the Yoga physiology article to merge?! This article already contains a summary under Beliefs section. Are you seeking an AfD-equivalent for the other article? Would retitling it to Sarira (yoga) or something be more appropriate? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Another alternative is to WP:BOLDly WP:REDIRECT Yoga physiology to this article or a subsection of this article. ~Kvng (talk) 20:38, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done NE Ent 23:41, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

The third paragraph in this section currently reads: "Australia's Bette Calman is the oldest female yoga teacher at 83 years old. She teaches at the Indian mental and physical discipline of yoga."

This breaks the chronology of the surrounding paragraphs and is also unconnected the section's topic of how yoga has been received and evolved in the West.

Suggest deletion.

Peterlambeth (talk) 10:09, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Done. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:04, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Not 'ancient India'.

May be ancient South Asia, or Asia. Or maybe Central Asia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.97.8.78 (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

You might consider scipping the :, as this sign is called visarga in devanāgarī and would therefore be read yogaḥ. Princ3jah (talk) 02:03, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault, thats indeed how it is written and pronounced in sanskrit Princ3jah (talk) 02:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

At the summary, it says: "Despite considerable research, there is little scientific evidence that yoga is beneficial for physical health, and it may cause muscular or spinal injuries, although it may improve mental health both for healthy people and for those with illnesses. Clinical studies on the health effects of yoga generally are of poor quality."

What type of Yoga is included here. Not Jnana Yoga I guess... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:801:251:54B5:B8F5:CE35:358A:E9A2 (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm a bit concerned that we might be pitting MEDRS against FRINGE with these edits. The second diff is so complicated that it's unclear what was actually changed.

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The term "Yoga" is derived from the Sanskrit word "Yuj" which means "to join" or "to unite". It reflects the union of inner consciousness with the Universe consciousness. Ladyshal17 (talk) 01:37, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Terra ^(talk) 09:47, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Here is a link to review articles from the last 5 years.

Pick the ones from major journals would be useful for updating. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:53, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

@Doc James: Thank you. Exactly what we needed. @Ronz:, others: I urge we replace much of what we have in the Yoga and health section(s) with NPOV summaries from these scholarly reviews. There are so many of them, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:25, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

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Finessyoga (talk) 10:11, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 10:47, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I, as an IP, can not edit this protected article. Confirmed/registered editors please add the following (A) file WITH (A) the first text, and (c) also add the 2nd text. Thanks.

Pashupati seal (2350-2000 BCE),^[1], from Indus Valley Civilization shows an early form of the tricephalic or ithyphallic Hindu god Shiva (or Rudra), who is associated with asceticism, yoga, and linga; regarded as a lord of animals; and often depicted as having three eyes.^{[2][3][4][5][6][7]}

Yoga is of three types, Karma Yoga - the salvation through good deeds, Bhakti Yoga - the salvation through devotion, and Hatha Yoga salvation through physical practice.^[8]

@TerraCodes: and @DRAGON BOOSTER:: May I request you to help with this please. Please peruse and use these edit suggestions from me, if it makes sense to you. Also, I further suggest to merge the "Modern History: reception by western world" with "reception with other religions" into a combined "reception by others" (or some such heading) section. I am using "replyto' (incorrect template?) because I do not know how to call out for help or grab your attention. Thanks.

202.156.182.84 (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Nope. See Pashupati seal, which does not say "shows an early form of the tricephalic or ithyphallic Hindu god Shiva (or Rudra)", but says " It was once thought to be ithyphallic, an interpretation that is now mostly discarded", and "is purported to be one of the earliest depictions of the Hindu god Shiva". It also says "Writing in 2002, Gregory L. Possehl concluded that while it would be appropriate to recognize the figure as a deity, its association with the water buffalo, and its posture as one of ritual discipline, regarding it as a proto-Shiva would "go too far." (Possehl 2002, p.141-144)". Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

I, as an IP, can not edit this protected article. Confirmed/registered editors please add the following (A) file WITH (A) the first text, and (c) also add the 2nd text. Thanks.

Pashupati seal (2350-2000 BCE),^[1], from Indus Valley Civilization shows an early form of the tricephalic or ithyphallic Hindu god Shiva (or Rudra), who is associated with asceticism, yoga, and linga; regarded as a lord of animals; and often depicted as having three eyes.^{[2][3][4][5][6][7]}

Yoga is of three types, Karma Yoga - the salvation through good deeds, Bhakti Yoga - the salvation through devotion, and Hatha Yoga salvation through physical practice.^[8]

@TerraCodes: and @DRAGON BOOSTER:: May I request you to help with this please. Please peruse and use these edit suggestions from me, if it makes sense to you. Also, I further suggest to merge the "Modern History: reception by western world" with "reception with other religions" into a combined "reception by others" (or some such heading) section. I am using "replyto' (incorrect template?) because I do not know how to call out for help or grab your attention. Thanks.

202.156.182.84 (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Nope. See Pashupati seal, which does not say "shows an early form of the tricephalic or ithyphallic Hindu god Shiva (or Rudra)", but says " It was once thought to be ithyphallic, an interpretation that is now mostly discarded", and "is purported to be one of the earliest depictions of the Hindu god Shiva". It also says "Writing in 2002, Gregory L. Possehl concluded that while it would be appropriate to recognize the figure as a deity, its association with the water buffalo, and its posture as one of ritual discipline, regarding it as a proto-Shiva would "go too far." (Possehl 2002, p.141-144)". Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

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Yash Yoga School Yoga Teacher Training Shool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.47.14.226 (talk) 09:31, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

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THE ORIGINAL WORD IS YOG AND NOT YOGA PLEASE DO THE NEEDFULL 115.99.33.119 (talk) 19:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Additionally, please state specifically what portion of the article needs to be changed, in a "Change X to Y" format. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 19:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Every year this happens. Yog is vernacular (e.g. Hindi, Bengali, etc). Yoga is Sanskrit. To claim otherwise is ridiculous, even if modern vernacular yogis/jogis insist the vernacular is accurate. This debate has happened on this page multiple times...suffice it to say it is Yoga and not Yog. See Schwa deletion in Indo-Aryan languages. Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the 'Physical Injuries' section (currently section 7.2) describes how yoga can result in physical injuries, and goes on to set out some statistics about the number of practitioners in Australia who have reported injuries - so far, so good.

The second paragraph of the section is comprised of a single sentence 'Yoga may result in injuries'. I'm not disputing the claim, but the sentence redundant after the preceding paragraph. Would anyone object to its removal? If the quoted sources are useful, they could probably be appended to the introductory sentence of the first paragraph. Girth Summit (talk) 09:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I think it is terribly repetitive in that section. --Gian (talk) 06:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I moved the sources to support the first sentence in the first paragraph (which the offending sentence essentially paraphrased), and removed the redundant sentence.Girth Summit (talk) 07:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

There were sidebar of major Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism in this page, since yoga is an essential part of yoga. But, I understand that their more establishment on yoga in last few decades, therefore I do not advocate putting the sidebars in the begining of the article where the generic concepts of yoga are described. Rather, putting the sidebars later in the context of describing the influences of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. User:Kashmiri please talk here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanjoydey33 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

@Sanjoydey33: One, your overall edit history – you basically tried to push the word "Hinduism" into every article you edited – does not really convince me that your intention is to improve the Yoga article. Two, any reason to make the Yoga article a part of series on Buddhism or a part of series on Jainism – because this is what these templates actually mean? As far as I am concerned, the article is better the way it is, and having those templates on this article will only confuse readers trying to navigate those religions. Besides, let's the folks from WP:BUDDHISM and WP:JAIN decide on the use of those templates. Note also that Yoga is not simply an element of Hinduism these days, or of any religion. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you on the last paragraph than today's yoga are actually hatha yoga which actually focuses more on the physical aspect of it. Therefore, I did not use the sider bar of religions on hatha yoga page. Also, as I mentioned originally, I do not encourage putting side-bar in the begining of the yoga page where the sections like introduction, etymology, definition, and goal, since they are generic sections. However, I do think the side bar should be included on the section describing schools categorizing these three different traditions. Regarding WP:BUDDHISM, I would suggest to include the side bar related to Tibetan Buddhism instead to be specific, if you have a problem with generic Buddhism. Also, I think what's your specific objection if somebody wants to navigate through those religions to understand the history and the relationship with other concepts and philosophical underpinning of those religions. Sanjoydey33 (talk) 13:56, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

yoga is being declared pre vedic. how does one reach this conclusion? we already know little about indus valley civilization so how does lack of knowledge define as any thing associated with indus valley as pre vedic? this is obviously a very controversial topic and subjected to eurocentrism and controversial aryan theories and anything which has nothing to do with archaeology and history, and instead of tagging anything as pre vedic, it should be declared as disputed as there are many scholars who dont consider IVC as pre vedic based on exactly the discovery of yogic figurines etc. Rameezraja001 (talk) 11:56, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX for WP:FRINGE ideas on Indigenous Aryans, nor are talkpages a WP:FORUM for such ideas. The "dispute" only exist in the mind of those "scholars" who entertain the idea of a Vedic IVC. Read Narasimhan (2018) again, to understand when the Indo-Aryans, including the proto-Vedic Aryans, came to India. Als, don't forget where this proto-Vedic religon originated, and where it picked-up some of it's essential elements: it's oldst roots are in the proto-Indo-European culture of the Yamna culture; the earliest Indo-Aryan culture was the Sintashta culture, which developed into the Andronovo culture; and central religious elements elements were taken over from the BMAC. That's where your Vedic culture comes from. But if when you go back that far in date and geography, 5500 BCE is a fantastical date. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:40, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Vedic culture had evolved in Brahmavarta. Copper articals were found during Mehrgarh excavations in Pakistan, and products were dated 7500BCE and imported from Khetri Copper Mines of present day state of Rajasthan bordering Pakistan. Copper Mines were an important part of Brahmavarta. Also pollen of Barlay were found at Sambhar lake, a part of Brahmavarta dated as 9500 years ago by Sahni Paleobotany Lab at Lucknow-India. Rigveda evolved and composed in Brahmavarta is now dated as 7000-7500BCE by many researchers, while Manusmriti is a Flood time document by Manu and Bhrigu composed 10,000 years ago. Concepts and vocabulary used in Manusmriti are further used in Ramayana (5200BCE) and Mahabharata (3100BCE). So Vedic culture dates have to be reconsidered. Talking of Yoga defined as 'linking of Atma with Paramatma', goes back to Rigveda composure dates. Upanishads composed by Bhrigu, Uddalaka, Piplada, Sayana etc etc talk extensively about Yoga, Atma and Paramatma. These Rishis time period was also immediately after the floods and they belonged to Bhrigu clan, as per Puranas. Remnants of their Ashrams are already found in Brahmavarta and further research in on. 2405:205:338E:C5BF:D8C7:FB3C:274F:44B2 (talk) 07:25, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

According to rajiv malhotra a well known indian american defines yoga in the west as : 1. Despiriutalised 2. Digested 3. Hinduphobic 4. commodified — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jogi315 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you and propose to add a paragraph at the end of 'Reception in the West' section. Sanjoydey33 (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Rajiv Malhotra is non-WP:RS; we don't need another WP:COATRACK for his opinions. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:36, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

@Jogi315: Well, Hinduism as practised in India is also as despiritualised, digested, and utterly and absurdly commodified. But then what? — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:59, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

As a note under Christianity: It is important to note that the article currently contains references to Christianity's acceptance/rejection of Eastern practices. Christianity is an Eastern religion in its origin and when referring to Christianity's view/s on Eastern practices it should be noted that these views are that of Western Christianity. Not Christianity generally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.150.132.2 (talk) 10:55, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

This article is organised in a way which provides two sections on a series of topics such as Buddhist and Jain yoga. I can see the desire to do "history" separately from "practice" but of course they strongly overlap. I think they'd be much better grouped to provide clarity and avoid the constant tendency as material is added to increase the duplication as editors perceive each fragmentary section to be incomplete. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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change ((Unitarian Christianity)) to ((Unitarianism|Unitarian Christianity)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:541:4500:1760:5dc8:36a6:3363:73e3 (talk)

 Done, thanks! ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:48, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I've felt it necessary to bring the matter of De Michelis's controversial typology here. It isn't widely agreed, and many academics really don't like it, while nobody else has adopted it. The article uses "modern yoga" in a different sense, meaning "the kind of yoga practised by millions of people around the world", "yoga consisting mainly of asanas possibly with a bit of other stuff", as in "International Yoga Day" (asanas only). De Michelis is basically an unreliable primary source (WP:PRIMARY). I'd have thought that this was far too detailed a matter for a lengthy section in an article on (classical) yoga; indeed, in the article on Modern yoga, it gets only a footnote. If it is to be discussed at all, it must be balanced by opposing sources, and described from reliable secondary sources. But I'd say it wasn't needed up at this high level at all, it's an academic detail.

I've therefore removed it as

1) overlong

2) wrongly sourced

3) probably in the wrong article.

If you want to create an article on the De Michelis Modern Yoga typology that would be fine but it would need to be reliably sourced as just explained. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:44, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Yoga is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Yoga until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 09:06, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

The overall meaning of yoga on Wikipedia has been acceleratingly changed from the concept of union with the Divine to a modern form of Hatha yoga which focuses on stretch-and-hold exercises defined as 'Modern Yoga'. This more-or-less quick change needs, at a minimum, further discussion and thought. The Yoga (postural) page, which also had the name Modern yoga (I changed it back to its original title, and an RM there might be beneficial), should perhaps be renamed Stretching (yoga). Randy Kryn (talk) 12:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Modern yoga has a strong claim to the name "yoga", but in a different sense: words, like practices, change over the centuries. In dictionaries such as Collins, Merriam-Webster, and Oxford, there are two different meanings of "yoga", one classical (Hindu, religious) and one modern (worldwide, based mainly on asanas); these are cited in the article Modern yoga. The latter meaning of "yoga" is the one that is commonly understood in the Western world, though many people appreciate there is some connection to spirituality; there has been widespread debate among Christians, Muslims and others about whether modern yoga is Hindu and if so to what extent: these matters too are discussed and cited in the article. Modern yoga is certainly not all about "stretching": even if we only considered the physical aspect, it involves strength, fitness, and balance as well, but relaxation, meditation, pranayama and the spiritual are all also involved to varying extents, and again, these are discussed and cited in the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:18, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Yoga historically is defined as union with the Divine. If modern yoga, sans this concept of union and the states of that union, has a strong claim to the word 'Yoga', then this could be attributed to recentism and not to historical significance. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:07, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

"Historically" is loaded: of course, pre-1918, that was its basic meaning, but even then it was interpreted in many different ways, reflected today in names such as Kriya Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Gnana Yoga, Raja Yoga and many others. Since the Renaissance led by Yogendra and others in the 1920s, and specially since the 1970s, we have many new meanings and names such as Iyengar Yoga, Vinyasa Yoga and so on. These are certainly "historic" also and are the matter of study of scholars at many universities. All have strong claims to being "Yoga" and no amount of wishing and defining, at least not in accordance with the vast bulk of reliable sources, will get away from that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:28, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Have reverted my page move, probably as good a name as any but it still should include a descriptor of the traditional definition of yoga as union with the Divine. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:59, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Will do. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:23, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• 
  Adiyogi Shiva statue, recognized by the Guinness World Records as the "Largest Bust Sculpture” in the world;^[1][2] the statue is for inspiring and promoting yoga, and is named Adiyogi, which means "the first yogi", because Shiva is known as the originator of yoga.
• 
  Statue of Shiva performing yogic meditation in lotus position

Hi Chiswick Chap, I see you have reverted my edit here and explaination at the talk page "this one but the article already has a large image of a statue of Shiva — indeed, it begins with one. I can't see any imaginable justification for an article on yoga to feature two such images." I want to clarify some points:

1. The addition was about Adiyogi Shiva, the mythological representation of "the first yogi", not just the entire representation of Shiva, the Hindu god. Adiyogi is not just a god to be worshipped, but the spirit of a yogi who represents the teaching of yoga, as mentioned, as the mythological first yogi.
2. The Shiva statue in the lead only shows a depiction of Shiva, the god, in a yogic pose; that is all. That Shiva is a statue meant to be worshipped as a Hindu god, mainly. Adiyogi Shiva is a statue that is to inspire and promote yoga. Huge difference.
3. Whether there is a WP:Consensus to add this or not. I hope we make some distinction between Shiva and their other forms like Nataraja or Adiyogi.

Looking forward to hearing back from you. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 11:47, 12 May 2019 (UTC))

Thanks for talking. I think the question of Adiyogi / Nataraja is a fine one for a Wikipedia article, most likely "Shiva", but not terribly relevant to this particular article. We have already stated and illustrated the basic or key fact, that Shiva is the god associated with yoga. Further details, and specially further statuary and illustrations, are matter for a subsidiary article (there are well over a hundred articles on aspects of yoga already), not this top-level article. In short, this just isn't the right place for what you are trying to do. You might create an article called Representations of Shiva; you might add some suitably cited materials to Nataraja or indeed create an article on Adiyogi; you might create a new article called Shiva in yoga, whatever. But the article does not need multiple photographs of the god of yoga, however many forms he has. That is tangential to the main topic, which is the theory and practice of yoga. Hope this is clear. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:48, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

...should be avoided. The article subject relates to "a group of physical, mental, and spiritual practices or disciplines which originated in ancient India". This is more of a heritage/history/spirituality topic, with significant contributions from Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism. We should try to maintain that balance (like the older versions of this article). We should try to avoid overloading it with Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga, etc, for which we have dedicated articles and which are only tangentially related to the subject here. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

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Under this heading : Mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita please remove the extra "According to" from : "According to According to Mallinson and Singleton," Flowersshowers (talk) 06:15, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Already done by ElHef. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:37, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

June 21st is declared by the UN as an International Yoga Day after it's initiation by India's Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi and spiritual guru Shri Jaggi Vasudev ^{[1] [2]}. Are there any anti-Indian, anti-Hindu editors trying to manipulate the Intangible Cultural Heritage? Romiman7 (talk) 08:03, 28 September 2019 (UTC)Romi

The article International Day of Yoga currently states that Modi proposed the day. Please take care not to make or imply accusations of any kind about other editors: that is forbidden by the Wikipedia policy of No Personal Attacks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:14, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

What's the material in the body that forms the basis for the fourth paragraph in the lead? ∯WBG^converse 17:00, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Strange things seem to have happened over the past year or so, and I'm inclined to start a community-GAR. What's this?!∯WBG^converse 17:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Nothing strange has happened. That edit was one step in improving the coverage of what is today widely called "yoga" around the world, i.e. the practice consisting mainly of postures. The article contains in its Yoga#Modern revival section extended and carefully-cited coverage of both the philosophical sort of yoga since 1851, and the modern postural practice, a very different usage of the word. The old claims of health benefits were not reliable, as they'd apply to any sort of exercise; the new claims are more circumspect, and cited to systematic reviews in line with WP:MEDRS. The lead's fourth paragraph does seem to be introducing cited material not in the body, so a little rearrangement might be advisable; I've moved that paragraph into the body. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@Classicfilms: I'm surprised that an experienced editor like you adds diff this kind of info to the lead, instead to the body of the article, where it belongs:

Traditional yogis such as B. K. S. Iyengar advocate both inhaling and exhaling through the nose in the practice of yoga, rather than inhaling through the nose and exhaling through the mouth.^[3][4][5] They tell their students that the "nose is for breathing, the mouth is for eating."^[4][6][7][3]

You should know that the WP:LEAD summarizes the article. Note also that Iyangar is not a traditional yogi. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it. I looked through the article and wasn't entirely certain what part to put it in. Thanks for taking care of it.-Classicfilms (talk) 18:53, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I enjoyed the article. What does satellite traditions of yoga mean in the Middle Ages (500-1500 CE section? Thanks, (Marylauhon (talk) 03:42, 17 September 2020 (UTC)).

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Edit1: Change the heading from "Reception in other religions" to "Reception in other religions and cultures"

Edit2: After doing the above insert the subsection below within the section mentioned in the edit1 above.

===Misappropriation===
The consumerist, individualist, and celebrity-filled western varieties of yoga which is full of contradictions has been described as the cultural misappropriation by western sources as the suburban yoga in west is not "the full meal" and treating body yoga [without its indic spiritual aspects] as the whole system is "selling yoga short".[1]

Note: If you believe the section on "Misappropriation" belongs elsewhere, then please still retain it and feel free to relocate it e.g. under a new section "Issues" where "Misappropriation" can be a subsection. Since as an IP I visit wiki only occasionally and to avoid back and forth discussion, please feel free to rephrase the edit suggested by me while ensuring that this concern of "misappropriation" raised in my edit is still retained in the article. Thank you. 58.182.176.169 (talk) 12:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps this one should be decided by consensus as it's a bit complicated and different points of view may all be valid. That immediately raises a concern, which is that the proposed paragraph gives only one side of the story; a balanced and encyclopedic account should certainly not adopt any one point of view (per WP:NPOV), so I'd suggest that as written the paragraph is not acceptable. What would be needed, if editors think the matter needs to be raised in this article, is an overview citing multiple sources and explaining the major positions on the issue, rather than just one of them. I would therefore be inclined to reject the paragraph as proposed, leaving open the possibility of a more nuanced resubmission. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Sam Sailor 16:28, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

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in the section 6.3 Jain yoga. the word dana is used first time and can be dana|linked Rishinagori (talk) 05:40, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:39, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

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can you add this?, may be in the beginning

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 18:22, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Please add the above image in the page. It deals with the core of yoga, from a world famous work from Narayana Guru

Is this a common thing to add to articles nowadays? I mean, this is literally a picture of text. If it's relevant, why not just add the quote to the article and cite? Living Concrete (talk) 03:45, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Living Concrete

It's like a marble slab. Also the fonts are difficult to add the malayalam words to English. The picture from his works and it's English translation is given. So you can add. It deals with 'why meditation, what happens when you meditate' in simple words.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:50, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm proposing extensive changes to the Yoga navbox and would appreciate the input of those interested in Yoga-related articles.

Please discuss the changes at this link; discussion elsewhere may be missed:

Template_talk:Yoga#Proposed_partial_reorganisation

Explanations for my proposed changes are listed at the discussion page linked above along with a draft which I will update as the discussion proceeds. Scyrme (talk) 21:32, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

This edit, edit-summary added additional sourced citations—better clarity and disambiguous formation, expanded

Some Christians integrate yoga and other aspects of Eastern spirituality with prayer and meditation. This has been attributed to a desire to experience God in a more complete way.^[1]

into

Some Christians integrate yoga and other aspects of Eastern spirituality with prayer and meditation, this has been attributed to a desire to experience God in a more complete way^[1] although this claim has been refuted and asserted to be incorrect by others, including Pope Francis.^{[2][3][4][5][6][7]}

Instead of adding clarity and a "disambiguous formation" [sic], this line is unclear and confusing. Which claim gas been "has been refuted and asserted to be incorrect by others"? The claim that "Some Christians integrate yoga and other aspects of Eastern spirituality with prayer and meditation," or the claim that they do this out of a "desire to experience God in a more complete way"? Both claims seem to be confirmed by those sources.

What do those sources say?

• Caitlin Bootsma (2015). "Pope Francis Says Yoga Doesn't Lead Us to God". - Catholic Online, does not really look like WP:RS; "The Pope tells us that only the Holy Spirit can "move the heart" and make it "docile to the Lord, docile to the freedom of love". If we are seeking a zen-like peace from yoga meditation, then we are seeking peace from the wrong source."
• "Vatican sounds New Age alert". BBC. 4 February 2003. Retrieved 27 August 2013. - "Correspondents say the report reflects the Vatican's concern about losing support among its one billion followers worldwide as New Age therapies gain ground." "Our correspondent says that the report makes clear that the Vatican basically dislikes fuzzy spirituality."
• "Letter to the Bishops of The Catholic Church on some aspects of Christian Meditation". 1989.
• Victor L. Simpson (1989). "Vatican warns against practicing Eastern meditation". - "The 23-page document, signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, approved by Pope John Paul II and addressed to bishops, said attempts to combine Christian meditation with Eastern techniques are fraught with danger although they can have positive uses. Cardinal Ratzinger, the head of the West German congregation, told a news conference this week that the document does not condemn Eastern meditation practices, but elaborates on guidelines for proper Christian prayer."
• Teasdale, Wayne (2004). Catholicism in dialogue: conversations across traditions. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 74. ISBN 0-7425-3178-3. - can't check the page at Google Books
• Mohler, R. Albert Jr. "The Subtle Body – Should Christians Practice Yoga?". Retrieved 14 January 2011. - personal blog, not WP:RS; "When Christians practice yoga, they must either deny the reality of what yoga represents or fail to see the contradictions between their Christian commitments and their embrace of yoga."

I think the the next sentence, "Previously, the Roman Catholic Church, and some other Christian organizations have expressed concerns and disapproval with respect to some eastern and New Age practices that include yoga and meditation.", is perfectly fine, and covered by the sources, including the more reliable ones above. Not to mention that the rest of the section touches on the same topic. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:59, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I've corrected diff this quote:

The Yogis of Vedic times left little evidence of their existence, practices and achievements. And such evidence as has survived in the Vedas is scanty and indirect. Nevertheless, the existence of accomplished Yogis in Vedic times cannot be doubted.

What Werner actually writes is this:

[There existed] ...individuals who were active outside the trend of Vedic mythological creativity and the Brahminic religious orthodoxy and therefore little evidence of their existence, practices and achievements has survived. And such evidence as is available in the Vedas themselves is scanty and indirect. Nevertheless the indirect evidence is strong enough not to allow any doubt about the existence of spiritually highly advanced wanderers.

Augh. added here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:53, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

In the intro section, the word "wordly" is used instead of "worldly". I would've edited it myself, but this page has some sort of semi-lock status I'm not familiar with. Hopefully, this is the best place to put this sort of suggestion.

 Done. Thank you.--RegentsPark (comment) 19:47, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

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I wish to help edit any possible grammar, spelling, and other language issues. MagicalWinx (talk) 21:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Anybody else who thinks that a reassessment is appropriate? TrangaBellam (talk) 05:18, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

TrangaBellam, I agree; the article seems to have lost its focus. I'm working on the prose. Miniapolis 03:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

And it's a bit of a WP:QUOTEFARM for a GA; the article was promoted (and reassessed) a long time ago. Miniapolis 16:53, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

(( just to say that MUIS' stance overall is actually closer to how the malaysian one listed a paragraph above:

https://www.muis.gov.sg/officeofthemufti/Irsyad/Advisory-on-Yoga-Practice

no idea as to when-from the clarification might be dated tho. ^^"a ; Nagao 0 (talk) 07:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC) ))