Talk:Zen/Archive 9

• Zen is not meditation
• Meditation does not lead to enlightenment
• Shintanza is not a method of expressing enlightenment
• Soto is not zen
• Dogen never got enlightened
• All books and traditions that sell an idea of a cultivated enlightenment are officially not Zen.
• Zen was not strongly influenced by taoism or neo-daoist thought
• Zen is not a form of mahayana-buddhism either
• Zen does not mean dhyana. Dhyana actually opposes the zen teachings.
• "and the personal expression of this insight in daily life, especially for the benefit of others." This is just not true, zen is selfish. Some people just leave and live ordinary lives.
• Zen is not aphopathic
• Stilling and quieting the mind is "quietism and false zen"
• McRae: "...the practical explanation of “maintaining the One without wavering” is that one is simply to contemplate every aspect of one’s mental and physical existence, focusing on each individual component with unswerving attention until one realizes its essential emptiness or non-substantiality." This is contradictory to what zen masters teach.
• "In Hongzhi's practice of "nondual objectless meditation" the mediator strives to be aware of the totality of phenomena instead of focusing on a single object, without any interference, conceptualizing, grasping, goal seeking, or subject-object duality." This is a contradictory piece of text. The meditation offered is still one belonging to duality.
• Dahui never taught to meditate on koans, just inquiry/study.
• It's a shame Dahui gets a mention, but he doesn't get listened to. "Dahui was a vigorous critic of what he called the "heretical Chan of silent illumination" from here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahui_Zonggao
• Chanting(meditation) is not a part of Zen
• This is all what chan is: "Chán points directly to the human mind, to enable people to see their true nature and become buddhas."
• These parts are incorrect too: "Since Zen is a form of Mahayana Buddhism, it is grounded on the schema of the bodhisattva path, which is based on the practice of the "transcendent virtues" or "perfections" as well as the taking of the bodhisattva vows."

"An important element of this practice is the formal and ceremonial taking of refuge in the three jewels, bodhisattva vows and precepts. Various sets of precepts are taken in Zen including the five precepts, "ten essential precepts", and the sixteen bodhisattva precepts.This is commonly done in an initiation ritual, which is also undertaken by lay followers and marks a layperson as a formal Buddhist."

"The Chinese Buddhist practice of fasting (zhai), especially during the uposatha days (Ch. zhairi, "days of fasting") can also be an element of Chan training"

"Certain arts such as painting, calligraphy, poetry, gardening, flower arrangement, tea ceremony and others have also been used as part of zen training and practice."

I stopped reading here, as there is quite a lot of information. I'm sure there's more wrong on this page though. Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the people moderating the page have not actually studied the topics they have been posting in, which I think should be the first and foremost requirement for adding information to a wiki page. So I hope that not only the misinformation gets corrected, but that the people currently moderating this page get relieved from their position as well.

Platform Sutra - Huineng

Sun Faced Buddha - Mazu

Gateless Gate - Wumen

Book of Serenity - Wansong

Blue Cliff Records - Yuanwu

Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching - Dahui

Master Yunmen, From the Record of the Chan Teacher "Gate of the Clouds"

The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-Chi - Burton Watson

The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, On the Transmission of Mind - John Blofield

The Recorded Saying of Zen Master Joshu - James Green

Radical Zen, The Sayings of Joshu - Yoel Hoffmann

Instant zen, Waking up in the present - Thomas Cleary

Dogen's manual of zen meditation - Carl Bielefeldt

Zen and Zen Classics vol. 1-5 - R.H. Blyth

Pruning the Bodhi tree - Jamie Hubbard

Some Zen Masters; Baizhang, Foyan, Huineng, Daman Hongren, Bodhidharma, Joshu, Nansen, Mazu, Huangbo, Lin-Chi, Layman Pang, Miazhong, Dahui, Deshan, Sengcan, Daoxin, Dongshan and Huike

From the platform sutra:

"The Master said, "I have composed a markless verse for the great assembly. Merely rely on it to cultivate and you will be as if always by my side. If you cut your hair and leave home, but do not cultivate, it will be of no benefit in pursuing the Way. The verse runs: 

The mind made straight, why toil following rules? The practice sure, of what use is Dhyana meditation?" (cut off the rest)

[...]

"The Master instructed the assembly, "Good Knowing Advisors, what is meant by 'sitting in Ch'an?' In this unobstructed and unimpeded Dharma-door, the mind's thoughts do not arise with respect to any good or evil external state. That is what 'sitting' is. To see the unmoving self-nature inwardly is Ch'an."

&

"Hsieh Chien said, “The Virtuous Dhyana Masters at the capital all say that to master the Way one must sit in Dhyana meditation and practice concentration, for without Dhyana concentration, liberation is impossible. I do not know how the Master explains this dharma. The Master said, “The Way is awakened to from the mind. How could it be found in sitting? The Diamond Sutra states that to say that Tathagata either sits or lies down is to walk a deviant path. Why? The clear pure Dhyana of the Tathagata comes from nowhere and goes nowhere and is neither produced nor extinguished. The Tathagata’s clear pure ‘sitting’ is the state of all dharmas being empty and still. Ultimately there is no certification; even less is there any ‘sitting.’”

From R.H. Blyths translation of the gateless gate:

Wumen's zen warnings;

3. To unify and pacify the mind is quietism and false Zen

9. Sitting blankly in Zen practice is the condition of a dead man.

10. Making progress is an intellectual illusion. 

From "Sun Face Buddha":

Mazu was practicing samadhi at Chuanfa Monastery in Heng yueh. There he met Nanyu Huairang [an heir of Huineng] who immediately recognized him as a Dharma vessel. Huairang asked him, "Why are you sitting in meditation?"

Mazu replied, "Because I want to become a Buddha." Thereupon Huairang took a brick and started to polish it in front of Mazu].

Mazu asked, "Why are you polishing that brick?"

Huairang said, "Because I want to make a mirror."

Mazu asked, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a brick?"

Huairang siad, "If I cannot make a mirror by polishing a brick, how can you become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

Huangbo, The Zen Teaching of Huang Po:

"As for those people who seek to grasp it through the application of some particular principle or by creating a special environment, or through some scripture, or doctrine, or age, or time, or name, or word, or through their six senses, how do they differ from wooden dolls?"

"Since you are fundamentally complete you should not try to supplement that perfection by such meaningless practices."

"If you students of the Way do not awake to this Mind substance, you will overlay Mind with conceptual thought, you will seek the Buddha outside yourselves, and you will remain attached to forms, pious practices, and so on, all of which are harmful and not at all the way to supreme knowledge."

& (if the source is considered usable):

"Building on the prevalent Chinese Buddhist conviction that all beings have/are Buddha-nature (fo-xing, 佛性), however, practice was not advocated in Chan as a means to enlightenment, but rather as the meaning of demonstrating it. It is only in denial or ignorance of our own true nature that enlightenment can be regarded as something to seek, a destination at which we might one day arrive.In sharp contrast with more scholastically-inclined schools of Buddhism, Chan did not see dispelling ignorance of our own true nature as something to be accomplished by studying canonical texts and commentaries. On the contrary, in keeping with the Buddha’s claim that the wise “do not hang onto anything, anywhere” and “do not enter into the mud of conceptual thinking” (Sabhiya Sutta, Sutta Nipāta III.6), Chan came to insist that we cannot read or reason our way out of conflict, trouble and suffering. And, in contrast with more ritually-defined schools of Buddhism, Chan also came to deny the merit of seeking help from supramundane sources. Dispelling ignorance of our own Buddha-nature does not involve cultivating or acquiring anything; we need only end the relational paralysis that prevents us from conducting ourselves as enlightening beings. This does not require special conditions or implements. It does not require extensive study or training. It can be accomplished here and now, in the midst of our own day-to-day lives."

Source

 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-chan/

Taken from the introduction

The Master said, “The Way is awakened to from the mind. How could it be found in sitting? The Diamond Sutra states that to say that Tathagata either sits or lies down is to walk a deviant path. Why? The clear pure Dhyana of the Tathagata comes from nowhere and goes nowhere and is neither produced nor extinguished. The Tathagata’s clear pure ‘sitting’ is the state of all dharmas being empty and still. Ultimately there is no certification; even less is there any ‘sitting.’”

_______

Main article: Shikantaza

(Master) Dahui’s teachings contain relentless attacks on the practice of silent illumination, sitting in meditation in tranquility and quietness. He labeled teachers of this type of meditation practice as "heretical" and complained,

They just sit in a ghostly cave on a dark mountain after their meals. They call this practice "silent illumination", "dying the great death", "the state before the birth of one's parents." They sit there until calluses appear on their bottoms, yet they still do not dare to move." [21]

To his opinion this type of practice leads to drowsiness, blankness and intellectualization and conceptualization of Chan Buddhism rather than enlightenment. He thought that teachers who taught this method of meditation had "never awakened themselves, they don’t believe anyone has awakened."[22] 

_____

From 'Zen Masters' by Dale Wright and Steven Heine;

'It is not sitting, it is practicing uninterruptedly and doubting that brings awakening'

Later in his life when telling of events during this period of study with many teachers he says that he was not as enthusiastic about the practice of sitting meditation as some others. When others wanted to do sitting meditation all night, Dahui wanted to stretch out his legs and sleep. Dahui tells this story about himself to make a positive point: it was not special devotion to sitting meditation that eventually got him to awakening, but never letting his doubt-filled investigation drop. Dahui makes the same point when he says in another sermon, “I studied Chan for seventeen years. In my tea, in my rice, when I was happy, when I was angry, when I was still and quiet, when I was disturbed (luan), I never once let myself be interrupted.”

_____

Dogen's zen is cultural appropriation, not zen.

In Dogen's manual of zen meditation Carl Bielefeld says:

"Dogen explicitly links his zazen with the tradition that every act of the Ch'an masterwhether holding up a finger or beating a studentrepresents the enlightened behavior of a Buddha, free from discrimination and beyond understanding. The irony, of course, is that, while the basic shift from inward quest to outward expression may have remained constant, what was in the classical style intended precisely to celebrate Ch'an's freedom from traditional forms (especially contemplative forms) of Buddhist cultivation has here become frozen in the ritual reappropriation of the tradition of cross-legged sitting. In any case we have here gone well beyond the classical theoretical discourse on Buddha nature and sudden practice to a treatment of meditation that is less concerned with cognitive stales than with religious action, less concerned with the Buddha as symbol of pure consciousness than as example of liberated agent. If the model for Zen practice here is still the enactment of enlightenment, it is no longer simply the psychological accord of the practitioner's consciousness with the eternally enlightened mind; it is now the physical reenactment by the practitioner of the deeds of the historical exemplars of enlightened behavior."

Also Carl Bielefeldt:

"Yet there remains a sense in which we have not fully come to grips with the historical character and the religious problematic of the meditation tradition in which they occur. We are often told, for example, that Zen Buddhism takes its name from the Sanskrit dhyana... and that the school has specialised in the practice[of meditation], but we are rarely told just how this specialization is related to the many striking disclaimers, found throughout the writings of Chan and Zen... to the effect that the religion has nothing to do with [meditation]."

_____

When Master Joshu talks about not setting up likes vs dislikes or not putting up right vs wrong, what does that have to do with meditation, taking/keeping precepts, virtues, paramitas or vows?

_____

McRae: "...the practical explanation of “maintaining the One without wavering” is that one is simply to contemplate every aspect of one’s mental and physical existence, focusing on each individual component with unswerving attention until one realizes its essential emptiness or non-substantiality."

This is wrong and goes against what zen masters teach.

From Seng T'san's Faith in Mind;

Although all dualities come from the One, do not be attached even to this One. 

______

Foyan, Instant Zen:

When I bring up one thing and another for you as I do, you think I am explaining Zen; but the minute you go into action you make it into worldly convention.

[The last line is worth extra attention, since it basically describes all the things that are wrong with the zen page, like keeping precepts for example]

Only if you keep your attention on it will you be able to make a discovery; but as I see, most of you just remain in eyes and ears, seeing and hearing, sensing and feeling - you've already missed the point. You must find the nondiscriminatory mind without departing from the discriminating mind; find that which has no seeing or hearing without departing from seeing and hearing.

This does not mean that "no seeing" is a matter of sitting on a bench with your eyes closed. You must have nonseeing right in seeing. This is why it is said, "Live in the realm of seeing and hearing, yet unreached by seeing and hearing; live in a land of thought, yet untouched by thought."

_______

"In Hongzhi's practice of "nondual objectless meditation" the mediator strives to be aware of the totality of phenomena instead of focusing on a single object, without any interference, conceptualizing, grasping, goal seeking, or subject-object duality."

[Note how this practice still belongs to the wordly conventions Foyan rejects.]

_______

"An important element of this practice is the formal and ceremonial taking of refuge in the three jewels, bodhisattva vows and precepts. Various sets of precepts are taken in Zen including the five precepts, "ten essential precepts", and the sixteen bodhisattva precepts.This is commonly done in an initiation ritual, which is also undertaken by lay followers and marks a layperson as a formal Buddhist."

One of the six patriarchs, Huineng, got enlightened while hearing a single line from the diamond sutra on the market. He had never taken any vows or precepts, he did not practice meditation either.

When master Xiangyan got enlightened by a pebble hitting bamboo when he was sweeping, what did it have to do with meditation, precepts, vows etc?

______

R.H. Blyth:

"For the practical study of Zen, you must pass the barriers set up by the masters of Zen." In the phrase, "the practical study of Zen", sanszen, the word san is said to have three meanings: 1. to distinguish (truth from error.) 2. to have an audience with a Zen Master. 3. to reach the ground of one's being. There is no explaining, philosophizing, idealizing, eccentricity. The character [zen], used to transliterate[1] Dhyana, originally meant "to sacrifice to hills and fountains." p.32, *Zen and Zen Classics, Vol. 4)

So when zen masters talk about Dhyana, they are not referring to meditation.

_______

From Dahui's Shobogenzo:

Linji; Just be able to dissolve past habits according to circumstances, going when you need to go, sitting when you need to sit, without any thought of seeking buddhahood. Why so? An ancient said, ‘If you’re going to act in contrived ways to seek buddhahood, then buddhahood is a major sign of birth and death.’

Touzi; If you question me, I reply accordingly, but I have no mysterious subtleties for you. And I don’t have you dwell figuring. I never speak of transcendence or immanence, or the existence of Buddha, or Dharma, or ordinary or holy. And I don’t maintain sitting to bind you people.

Zhenjing; Buddhism does not go along with human sentiments. Elders everywhere talk big, all saying, ‘I know how to meditate, I know the Way!’ But tell me, do they understand or not? For no reason they sit in pits of crap fooling spirits and ghosts. When people are like this, what crime is there is killing them by the thousands and feeding them to the dogs?

Deshan; If you say you can attain by entering concentration, stilling the spirit, quieting down thoughts, well, some cultists have also managed to get into states of tremendous concentration seeming to last eighty thousand eons, but are they enlightened? Obviously they are mesmerized by false notions.

Xuansha; It cannot be said that you will hit the mark by fasting, discipline, constant sitting without reclining, stopping the mind, meditating on emptiness, freezing the spirit, or entering concentration—what connection is there?

_______

Ch'eng-ku, Teachings of Zen:

"It is essential for yu to cease and desist from your previously held knowledge, opinions, interpretations, and understandings. It is not accomplished by stopping the mind; temporary relinquishment is not the way - it fools you to wasting body and mind, without accomplishing anything at all in the end.

I suggest to you that nothing compares to ceasing and desisting. There is nowhere for you to apply your mind. Just be like an imbecile twenty-four hours a day. You have to be spontaneous and buoyant, your mind like space, yet without any measurement of space."

______

Mazu, Sun Face Buddha:

P.58; (Huijang said to Mazu) "Meditation is neither sitting or lying."

P.60; If you try to sit like buddha you are just killing Buddha.

P.62;Not cultivation and not sitting is the Tathagata's pure meditation.

______

Huangbo, The Zen Teaching of Huang Po:

"As for those people who seek to grasp it through the application of some particular principle or by creating a special environment, or through some scripture, or doctrine, or age, or time, or name, or word, or through their six senses, how do they differ from wooden dolls?"

"Since you are fundamentally complete you should not try to supplement that perfection by such meaningless practices."

"If you students of the Way do not awake to this Mind substance, you will overlay Mind with conceptual thought, you will seek the Buddha outside yourselves, and you will remain attached to forms, pious practices, and so on, all of which are harmful and not at all the way to supreme knowledge."

Faure: Kyoto University, 1976-1983, studied Dogen’s Shobogenzo under Yanagida Seizan

McRae: Komazawa University [Dogen Affiliated and Founded], University of Tokyo, Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai (Society for the Promotion of Buddhism), Soka University (Founded by Evangelical Buddhist)

Sharf: Kyoto University, 1985-1987

Schlutter: Komazawa University [Dogen Affiliated], 1993-1995

Welter: Komazawa University [Dogen Affiliated], 1980-1982, 1987-1989;

Enlightenment as timeless transcendence

The romantic notion of enlightenment as a timeless insight into a transcendental essence has been thoroughly criticized.[23] According to critics it doesn't contribute to a real insight into Buddhism:

...most of them labour under the old cliché that the goal of Buddhist psychological analysis is to reveal the hidden mysteries in the human mind and thereby facilitate the development of a transcendental state of consciousness beyond the reach of linguistic expression.

Faure: Kyoto University, 1976-1983, studied Dogen’s Shobobogenzo under Yanagida Seizan

McRae: Komazawa University [Dogen Affiliated and Founded], University of Tokyo, Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai (Society for the Promotion of Buddhism), Soka University (Founded by Evangelical Buddhist)

Sharf: Kyoto University, 1985-1987

Schlutter: Komazawa University [Dogen Affiliated], 1993-1995

Welter: Komazawa University [Dogen Affiliated], 1980-1982, 1987-1989;

R.H. Blyth: Zen and Zen Classics, Volume 1-5

Pruning The Bodhi Tree by Jamie Hubbard

The Zen Doctrine of No-Mind by D.T. Suzuki.

And (already mentioned earlier above): Dogen's manual of zen meditation by Carl Bielefeldt

"Building on the prevalent Chinese Buddhist conviction that all beings have/are Buddha-nature (fo-xing, 佛性), however, practice was not advocated in Chan as a means to enlightenment, but rather as the meaning of demonstrating it. It is only in denial or ignorance of our own true nature that enlightenment can be regarded as something to seek, a destination at which we might one day arrive.

In sharp contrast with more scholastically-inclined schools of Buddhism, Chan did not see dispelling ignorance of our own true nature as something to be accomplished by studying canonical texts and commentaries. On the contrary, in keeping with the Buddha’s claim that the wise “do not hang onto anything, anywhere” and “do not enter into the mud of conceptual thinking” (Sabhiya Sutta, Sutta Nipāta III.6), Chan came to insist that we cannot read or reason our way out of conflict, trouble and suffering. And, in contrast with more ritually-defined schools of Buddhism, Chan also came to deny the merit of seeking help from supramundane sources. Dispelling ignorance of our own Buddha-nature does not involve cultivating or acquiring anything; we need only end the relational paralysis that prevents us from conducting ourselves as enlightening beings. This does not require special conditions or implements. It does not require extensive study or training. It can be accomplished here and now, in the midst of our own day-to-day lives."

Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-chan/

Taken from the introduction