User talk:Bagumba/Archive 37

This topic is still being widely covered in the news, with new articles being published only hours ago^[1][2], the ITN discussion was still ongoing, and there is nothing else coming close to making it stale. Please consider reopening the discussion and let it run it's due course. Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kcmastrpc: Thanks for discussing this. I think there's a misunderstanding on "due course" as it applies to ITN. Per WP:ITN/A:

If there is not consensus to post the item and the nomination has had suitable time to run (generally 24 hours), nominations can be closed.

This is different than other forums like WP:AFD, which run for at least a week. Most of the opposers cited that this was an arrest and not a conviction, and the links you provided don't seem like they would casue the massive turn needed to form a consensus to post. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 12:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

"can be closed", but not "should", or "must". Given the ongoing coverage and the significance around the coverage on this news item I'd encourage you to reconsider letting the ITN discussion continue, I've seen discussion go for much longer on similarly popular ITN proposals. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:32, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kcmastrpc: I don't see it, but feel free to post at WT:ITN. I won't mind if someone uninvolved sees value in reopening it. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you mind updating Harrison Butker to the new lead for me. It's fully protected, only admins can edit it. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 22:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: I dont disagree with your edit, but I'd be liable to face scrutiny for abusing admin privilege. Better to make an edit request on the page and have someone totally uninvolved consider if its truly uncontroversial. Of just wait it out. A bit rare that its fully locked for a whole month. —Bagumba (talk) 00:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9 Seems like I inadvertently did the edit anyways while (semi-blindly) going through search results. LOL. —Bagumba (talk) 17:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

lol lol. Also, I think the article should say placekicker instead of just kicker. He's only punted once in his career. Not asking you to change that though, just noting. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: Is that a WP convention? Honestly, I don't remember "placekicker" being used much in broadcasts, but maybe I'm misremembering. And a punter always seems to be a "punter" to avoid ambiguity w/ the "real" kicker. —Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

It's probably just a WP convention. I think kicker is more common than placekicker. Once the protection goes down, I'm sure someone will come along and change it back to placekicker though, lol. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 18:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

User talk:162.83.200.43. Height and weight vandalism as usual. Rikster2 (talk) 12:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Blocked 31h.—Bagumba (talk) 13:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

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Do you do SPIs? I have opened two of them recently but no comments yet. There doesn't appear to be any urgency about people actively evading blocks. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 16:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Hardly anymore. They sucked up too much of my time. Reporters often dont provide smoking gun evidence, then I got sucked into digging, all while trying to play devil's advocate on whether the evidence was just a coincidence. So my advice is to provide enough diffs so that it's a no-brainer that the editors are all the same, and blocking and doesnt require the admin to do much due diligence on their own. Everyone is a volunteer here. Take the Skol case for example. It's not a crime to edit Vikings' pages, so it would help to point out more idiosyncracies that just the timing. Also keep in mind that someone looking at the case might know nothing about football and probably nothing on the alleged sockmaster. Nobody wants to wrongly assume and block innocent editors. Good luck. —Bagumba (talk) 17:05, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I know what you mean. I added some more evidence. I'm not asking you to do anything though. Thanks, ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9 I did see this. You can probably find similar old edits where they modified the college info as such. Now we only started mass adding "professional" to active players, but I'm pretty sure you can find an edit or two where he was removing "professional" for some former players before.—Bagumba (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks B. I actually did already find an old diff of that. I added it to the case page. Thanks again, (not asking you to do anything) ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

They undid your edit here, lol. That's my last msg about it, sry. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, I know I said that was my last msg about Sergio but the lead guy is back now too. "amd"? ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't think I noticed him before. I guess that's your other SPI? —Bagumba (talk) 04:00, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Correct. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 05:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: I took care of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/MyUsernameWillBeSomthingCool. A few suggestions for improvement:

• You had diffs. Thanks. Providing commentary about that to look for in the diffs helps the admin not have to sleuth and guess. For example "removing info" from leads can be normal copyediting, but something like "making leads too sparse and without an accessible overview" shows an indisputable problem.
• Two sets of diffs can be sufficent. Three removes most doubt, esp. for someone with no previous background on the editor.—Bagumba (talk) 05:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: An always interesting dilemma is when one sees the light and stops making unproductive edits. I've had one or two before where it was a game of whac-a-mole. The editor wasnt technically doing anything bad anymore but there was still the whole evasion thing. I could tell when it was them, but I gave up chasing (became consuming), only blocking if someone brought it to my attention, because it can be bad for morale too if someone bothered by "fairness". But some people for various reasons might just keep returning. Too early to tell.—Bagumba (talk) 02:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: They're not exactly turning over a new leaf. The backlog sucks, but it's a thankless job. I was staying away from that one with perhaps strict interpretation of WP:INVOLVED. But its a WP:DUCK. Any of us can revive, as needed. —Bagumba (talk) 02:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh well, we'll just advise him to not remove professional. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 03:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

It looks like he'll get unblocked at his talk page once he says he understands copyright, so I'm not really worried about it. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 03:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Looks like Eagles noticed Sergio's sock too (Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sergio Skol). In case you wanted an update. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 18:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that Canadian-born thing. That's a pet peeve of mine. He's not "Canadian-born". He IS Canadian. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 23:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9 NFL bios have always been so weird. They never said they were American because everyone "knows" the NFL is full of them, then the consistent "-born" for people with no evidence of being American. You'd think some of them got naturalized at some point, but it seems harder to find any mention of that happening for NFL players. Or like I updated Todd Lyght to being American after I sourced his father being in the US Army. —Bagumba (talk) 03:01, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

TTPI? I haven't seen that one before. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 03:05, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9 I passed on that one. Get sucked into too many peripheral things as it is, like the annoying old HS formats or piping "Texas Longhorns" to read "at University of Texas" —Bagumba (talk) 03:10, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean there was a better way to write it (I'm not sure there is). I mean I literally haven't heard of that territory before. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 03:13, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

In regards to this, Morten Andersen just recently became an American citizen in 2019. I thought that would have happened years ago??? I'll stop bugging you now. I just thought you would like to know that. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 19:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: I'm sure it would have been updated if there was an infobox parameter. But everyone already knows they're all American anyway. —Bagumba (talk) 03:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

You're a Chargers fan, right? (that's what I always guessed.) Well, I'm suprised you missed this, lol. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 03:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9 a recent "improvement" —Bagumba (talk) 03:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Oops, I shouldn't have doubted the great Bagumba. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 03:38, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello. I'm leaving a message to let you know that I've opened a discussion regarding your close of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Close review: X blocked in Brazil at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Close review: X blocked in Brazil. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey. Can you please consider blocking IP 2001:8003:E0AA:8700... . Continuous addition of the same unsourced content at Chris Cedar. DaHuzyBru (talk) 11:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 wk. —Bagumba (talk) 11:47, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you protect the following 7 articles, all are recent Panathinaikos signings and all are targets of capitalization of position vandalism. I imagine it is the same user, but it is from different IPs. If you can figure out how to block and that is a better solution, so be it.

• Panagiotis Kalaitzakis
• Kostas Sloukas
• Dinos Mitoglou
• Marius Grigonis
• Ioannis Papapetrou
• Dimitrios Moraitis
• Jerian Grant

Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 04:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rikster2: I know there was that MOS talk page discussion, but MOS:LISTCAPS still says "If the list items are sentence fragments, then capitalization should be consistent – sentence case should be applied to either all or none of the items." Yeah, those guys said this wasn't "really" a fragment. I don't really care either way, but if I'm going to use admin tools, I'd need to at least see a referencing link to the discussion in the edit summary. Then I can at justify that others are persistently not explaining their changes as a reason to protect. There's a lot of examples of WP pages that cap consecutive sports positions, so it's not necessarily obvious. —Bagumba (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

OK then I am stepping out of it because I did not agree with that change nor did I think it was necessary. It was just another example of someone who doesn’t care about the articles but wants to impose their preference across Wikipedia in the name of MOS. There is a lot of that going on, funny for a platform that supposedly has few rules and mandates. Rikster2 (talk) 13:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Not "thou", as thou would/hast now, "brown cow". Verily, though, allusions are/or illusions; no matter, no mind. May the fours be with you! InedibleHulk (talk) 18:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: Apologies for the bad Middle English.—Bagumba (talk) 01:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if I should apologize for this and that or not. I feel I should at least let you know it "got weird", if only for cross-reference purposes. And don't read too deeply into that Misfits song title, either; live long and prosper! InedibleHulk (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: Is that a non-apology apology? Dōmo arigatō.—Bagumba (talk) 01:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, since you apologized, I'm bound by ancient Canadian custom to pay it back. Sorry. Might happen again. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: Accepted. We can both learn from Springfield. —Bagumba (talk) 02:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Zanesville Flood Sufferers ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 07:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: "Potters" heh heh. —Bagumba (talk) 07:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Ballpark: "Unknown" ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 07:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Fadeaway World. Thank you. Left guide (talk) 11:23, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey Bagumba, so I'm mulling over whether or not to send List of NBA rookie single-season rebounding leaders to AfD and doing a WP:BEFORE search. I stumbled upon this source by Opta Analyst. Never heard of the site before, is it reliable? And do you happen to have access to other sources that might satisfy WP:NLIST for this list? Left guide (talk) 18:28, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: New to me also. Doesn't seem to meet WP:USEBYOTHERS, esp. for basketball. I did find an advertorial on The Guardian here. As for the WP list, I'll see what Google can turn up. —Bagumba (talk) 02:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Sometime after I posted here, I realized that the bottom of the Opta Analyst site says it's owned by an AI site, so most likely unreliable. Might confirm that with the RSN folks before heading to AfD though. I noticed you tagging and working on the rookie scoring page, best I could find was this. Is it reliable? Was wondering if you might recognize the author name for an WP:EXPERTSPS exemption. Left guide (talk) 18:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: The reliable sources I could find are 100 Things Hoosiers Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die, 20 Second Timeout (total rebounds only, the author seems to meet USEBYOTHERS), The Oklahoman. Someone steadfast willing to wade through Newspapers.com might find more. I wouldn't have created it, but ...—Bagumba (talk) 10:11, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 05:54, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9 a Zim fan —Bagumba (talk) 06:01, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey Bagumba, would you mind doing something about this account? They were warned on their talk page about the problematic username a year ago, but didn't respond, and have continued editing up to as recently as three days ago. I'm thinking a block may be necessary to get their attention. Left guide (talk) 02:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Perhaps follow up with the admin that left that message. On the one hand, North Coast Football seems unrelated to their Amer football edits. Or try Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User names. I usually only deal with blatant vios when I see them. —Bagumba (talk) 04:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for those suggestions. I left a second follow-up warning, so maybe it would be best to give them one last chance to respond. If they don't, but continue editing, it would probably be a good idea to escalate the matter via one of your suggestions. Left guide (talk) 04:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

He's a former Canadian American football linebacker. Who knows if that is supposed to mean he's both Canadian and American, or just Canadian? There's no info anywhere in the article about his nationality. The infobox just says he was born in Ghana. Since he's a former Canadian, maybe he's a Ghanaian now? ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 18:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: Is he an American or former American now? I did my public service for the day and mentioned he grew up in Canada. —Bagumba (talk) 11:09, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

A request for comment has been filed concerning the username of North Coast Football (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion here. Left guide (talk) 23:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Does it count as a Breaking News article if a article from nba.com uses the word "Reports" like "Reports: Knicks acquiring Karl-Anthony Towns in 3-team deal" for example? ReallyAmazingDude13 (talk) 17:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@ReallyAmazingDude13: WP:RSBREAKING says to distrust anonymous sources, unconfirmed reports, and reports attributed to other news media; seek multiple independent sources which independently verify; seek verified eyewitness reports; and be wary of potential hoaxes—Bagumba (talk) 01:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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This user needs a timeout for roster vandalism. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 11:31, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. 1 week. Possibly same as this Israel IP. —Bagumba (talk) 11:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey Bagumba, so at the very end of the second sentence at the Dirk Nowitzki article I'd like to bundle all eight of those inline citations into one footnote. It's presently a sub-optimal format style. I checked the help page and the template documentation, but haven't a clue how to do it, even tested a preview attempt on the Nowitzki article to no avail. Any chance you can help with this? Left guide (talk) 08:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Did you try WP:BUNDLING? —Bagumba (talk) 10:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and {{Unbulleted list citebundle}}. The coding and explanations for that is like a foreign language to me. :( If it's too much for you to decipher, I'll probably post a help request at WP:VPT, just thought you might be willing to assist since you seem really interested in the article topic. Left guide (talk) 10:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: I was going to say look at LeBron James' lead, but that looks convoluted. I'll punt on this. Not very helpful that BUNDLING doesn't have source code examples. Good luck. —Bagumba (talk) 10:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I was actually thinking of doing an {{efn}} like the LeBron example you mentioned. It's simple and I've seen it done that way in another article too, but I don't know if it's the most MOS-compliant. Definitely beats eight individual citation footnotes though. Left guide (talk) 10:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Call it a fever dream, but is/was there a page dedicated to perennial sources for the basketball wiki project? I want to do something similar for the ice hockey project. Conyo14 (talk) 02:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Conyo14: For the NBA, there's Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/References. —Bagumba (talk) 02:54, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) @Conyo14: For ice hockey, there's already a WikiProject source list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Sources. Left guide (talk) 03:05, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

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Hi again Bagumba, do you mind if I ask you for a cursory straw poll of {{NBA rivalries}}? Like maybe what you think are the top 3-5 most worthy of deletion. I'd like to pick a few to focus on as potential AfD candidates, thanks. Left guide (talk) 09:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: I used to cull this semi-regularly. Glancing at the recent additions, and without doing a WP:BEFORE, I'd suspect Nets–Raptors rivalry, Heat–Pacers rivalry, Nuggets–Timberwolves rivalry, Kings–Lakers rivalry, Kings–Warriors rivalry, Lakers–Suns rivalry, I-5 rivalry. —Bagumba (talk) 09:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. I do plan to do a diligent WP:BEFORE search prior to taking a trip to AfD, and possibly adding quality references to rivalry articles if possible. The template page history is a nice place to spot past AfDs, and I'll take a look to see how the discussions go and how the community judges these. By the way WP:Articles for deletion/Mavericks–Rockets rivalry closed as delete but the article was later re-created, do you have an opinion about that? Left guide (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Mavs-Rockets presumably still not notable then, as long as !voters don't start arguing that SBNation, Clutchpoints, present-day SI, etc. are notable.—Bagumba (talk) 15:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, can you please restore the 2021 version to draftspace? I'd like to examine and compare the sources, and it's reasonable to presume other community members may want to should this go to AfD again, which I am considering. Left guide (talk) 21:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: I'm not a regular at WP:REFUND, so it's possbile I'm too rigid when it comes to draftifying. This current request seems similar to my thinking. However, I can tell you that the old version has fewer sources than the current one. The only relevant one that's different is this to landofbasketball, a stats site (there's also a link to a Basketball Reference box score). Hope that helps. Feel free to request at REFUND if you're still intereted in the full version. —Bagumba (talk) 05:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

If it's of any interest to you, I realized I went through the NBA rivalry articles about a month ago and applied the {{notability}} tag to two: Celtics–Pistons rivalry and Bulls–Cavaliers rivalry. On another note, I encountered this argument about ESPN in an AfD some time ago and I was wondering, do you agree with the premise that it falls within the remit of WP:COISOURCE for leagues they have TV contracts with? I ask because you seem to have good understanding of how these sources square up to WP policies/guidelines, and this is a key source that could potentially sway the notability of the Celtics-Pistons rivalry and affect my decision to send it to AfD. (currently working on a source assessment table for this rivalry at User:Left guide/sandbox5) Left guide (talk) 08:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The ESPN argument would then need to be extended to local papers back in the day, who derived ad revenue from teams. Every media provider faces influence to skew the "truth" due to finacial considerations. In ESPN's defense, they do exposes on leagues they're contracted with. It's a valid concern, but I think it would need to be considered on a per case basis, and I otherwise haven't seen that ESPN take as a widespread opinion on WP. What's your view? —Bagumba (talk) 12:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Oops, in case this is not on your watchlist. —Bagumba (talk) 12:14, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you mind sharing more about the situation of local papers deriving ad revenue from teams? For example, when did this practice stop? I am curious to learn more about this; I've had hunches about that sort of thing but haven't bothered to explore it before. As to your question, I try to keep my personal view out of it, and make judgments based on what WP policies and guidelines say and for the integrity of the encyclopedia; from that perspective, I'd consider it to generally be a conflicted source for NBA topics. At some point, it might be worth taking up at WT:NSPORT, which I seldom check and don't think I've ever commented there. Left guide (talk) 12:59, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Teams would place ads to sell tickets. It maybe stopped for the big 3 US leagues as they became more popular. But I can still remember arena football and MLS ads when I last subscribed to a paper. —Bagumba (talk) 16:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I guess I'm sorta involved in this now. I'll work with @Left guide: on finding sources for the pages he's tagged. I'll also tell him if I've exhausted my resources in finding sources and then send the articles into the abyss via WP:AFD.

Perhaps it might be worth creating an essay of notability on rivalries? Honestly, it would be nice to sorta help out where WP:GNG applies and does not apply. I think I've figured it out from AfD discussions and from finding sources. Conyo14 (talk) 18:32, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Conyo14: My standard delete rationale is something like:

Fails WP:GNG with lack of significant coverage in multiple, independent sources. The biggest issue is that it fails the guideline WP:WHYN, namely that multiple sources are needed "so that we can write a fair and balanced article that complies with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy ..." Otherwise, editors will just cherry-pick facts from routine coverage in recaps of individual games, as opposed to independent sources that look at the rivalry as a whole. Moreover, routine coverage liberally uses the term rivalry to manufacture hype. At this point, it looks like calling this a "rivalry" is WP:OR.

That can be morphed into guidance on what rivalry actually is notable. —Bagumba (talk) 18:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Would something like this User:Conyo14/Sports rivalries help a bit? WP:NRIVALRY exists, but it's not very detailed. Conyo14 (talk) 19:29, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Conyo14: Thanks for making that. I think one major area with room for improvement would be to quote, contextualize, and discuss WP:SECONDARY. Left guide (talk) 20:38, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Thank you, I've updated my essay to reflect that. Conyo14 (talk) 22:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Conyo14: Rivalries are essentially a recurring event. I think a major point to remember is this one from WP:Notability#Events:

Even a large number of news reports that provide no critical analysis of the event is not considered significant coverage.

In this context, what's needed is secondary coverage which constitutes an individual source providing overview-level discussion of the rivalry from a historical perspective across a long period of time over several games/series. In the NBA, every pair of teams in the same conference generally play each other four times per year, so over 25 years that's up to 100 WP:ROUTINE game reports and/or previews, and some of these rivalry articles appear to be ref-bombed accordingly. If such coverage qualified for WP:NEVENT, we'd easily have an WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of articles for every pair of teams, which would dilute the quality and due weight of the real historically-significant rivalries like Celtics–Lakers rivalry. Left guide (talk) 20:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Conyo14: A common fallacy I've seen in some of those AfDs is WP:ITEXISTS, both from those arguing to keep and delete. If reliable news outlets call it a rivalry, then yes it's a rivalry. We don't get to apply original research to contradict what sources say. However, existence doesn't equal notability, just like how a local news outlet affirming the existence of a WP:ROUTINE car crash, bank robbery, or rainstorm doesn't establish notability for said event. Left guide (talk) 20:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I think on one hand outright calling it a rivalry is fine, but saying "renewing their rivalry" or "start of a rivalry" muddies the water a bit. Especially if it's just a game preview. That's why in the essay I point out that things like this shouldn't count towards GNG. Conyo14 (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Conyo14: Tbh, excessive focus on the usage of the word "rivalry" seems to veer away from notability and more into semantics. In theory, a matchup between two teams can still show notability even if sources never use the word "rivalry" (which, as Bagumba has indicated above and in some of the past AfDs I viewed, is mainly a term used to hype up fans) and an article title can be changed to reflect something more generic and ubiquitous like Heat vs. Pacers or Heat–Pacers matchup. The focus should remain on the depth and quality of the available coverage as it pertains to the topic. In my opinion, something like this is an example of GNG-quality team rivalry coverage; note the long-term historical analysis, it's not fresh contemporary reporting. This is an example of GNG-quality player rivalry coverage, with its full-length timeline. Ultimately, we have to look beyond run-of-the-mill previews, game and season recaps, and interviews. Left guide (talk) 00:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I updated my essay to include how sources don't have to explicitly state rivalry. Though doing a WP:BEFORE might still be difficult all the same. Bagumba, any thoughts on the essay? Conyo14 (talk) 05:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

It feels weird continuing to add relatively long replies in what's mostly a dialogue with another editor on a third editor's user talk page, so I opened a thread on the essay talk page detailing my essay feedback. (this comment here is mostly just a courtesy notice to Bagumba) Left guide (talk) 06:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I was wondering why does the page for Hal Weatherman redirect you to the page for the 2024 North Carolina lieutenant gubernatorial election when you search for it? ReallyAmazingDude13 (talk) 14:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@ReallyAmazingDude13: You can refer to Wikipedia:Redirect § Purposes of redirects—Bagumba (talk) 15:14, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba Which one do I need to look at on that page to answer my question? ReallyAmazingDude13 (talk) 15:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@ReallyAmazingDude13: Which of the reasons listed there do you think might apply? I was not the creator of Hal WeathermanHal Weatherman. —Bagumba (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the last reason ReallyAmazingDude13 (talk) 18:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)@ReallyAmazingDude13: It appears to redirect there because according to the article infobox he is one of the two major candidates for that election, so it's a plausible search term. If you believe he is notable and have access to sources that discuss him, you are free to be bold and turn the redirect into its own article. Left guide (talk) 02:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide What sources about him would I need in order to be bold and turn the redirect into its own article ReallyAmazingDude13 (talk) 03:32, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)@ReallyAmazingDude13: I don't have much time to put on this right now, but WP:POLITICIAN offers a very brief overview of politician notability and WP:NSUBPOL is the fuller page. Ultimately, independent secondary reliable sources are ideal for starting up a new article. Maybe try searching the subject's name on Google News and seeing what's there; I think the person's political stances and political history are the types of topics the average reader might expect. If you're seeking more specialized help, consider consulting the Elections WikiProject folks at WT:WikiProject Elections and Referendums. Or try starting a draft at Draft:Hal Weatherman which should attract feedback from experienced "Articles for creation" reviewers. Hope this helps, good luck. Left guide (talk) 04:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

but Max Hall might need protection or something. This person keeps coming back with different IPs. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@WikiOriginal-9: I'm WP:INVOLVED on this topic, so I wont't personally protect the page, plus one might call it a content dispute (though I disagree). YMMV depending on the admin looking at a protection request. What I have done is started Talk:Max Hall#Lead sentence. If they continue to revert without consensus, that can be grounds for a block or page protection. As far as the IP addresses, its generally normal if the same user's IPv6 address varies after the first 16 characters; it's not anything nefarious. —Bagumba (talk) 03:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi protected for 48 hours. BusterD (talk) 03:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)