User talk:Orangemike/Archive 36

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Hello Orange Mike! First of all, love the color choice :) I wanted to ask you about this edit. When I see usernames like this, I typically just leave the message on their talk page, rather than sending them to UAA; Was this one of those cases where I should have just reported? I usually make the right call with this but want to make sure I continue to :) Thanks for the help! SPF121188 ^{(talk this way) (contribs)} 15:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

In a case like this, where there is not a long history of edits that would be lost, I figure it's best just to do a soft username block, encouraging them to adopt a new, compliant username right away. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Got it, fair enough! Thanks for the info! While I have your attention, I noticed this on another userpage... I don't like to mess with others userpages, but this has been on his page since September 20th... Sorry to keep bugging you with questions but I wasn't sure how to handle this. Thanks! SPF121188 ^{(talk this way) (contribs)} 15:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

While Wikipedia is not censored, doing that to somebody else's userpage is just vandalism. I've reverted and given the vandal a warning. I hope it takes. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Got it, thanks! I'll keep that in mind if I ever do see it in the future. Appreciate the help! SPF121188 ^{(talk this way) (contribs)} 16:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

You don't have to have the Mop-and-Bucket to revert vandalism, or to post warnings. (The master list of warning templates is at WP:WARN.) --Orange Mike | Talk 16:20, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I've just nominated the CIB article for deletion here and wanted to let you know. I had a look around for sources and could find nothing that justified it having an article. Also apologies for reverting to the POV version earlier, my bad! Jtrrs0 (talk) 19:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I've clarified my source by listing it as a separate citation on the copyright questions page.

There are some astounding commentaries of the views of those charged with famine relief in Scotland, barely touched on in Highland clearances#discrimination and Highland Potato Famine but more prominent in the source Devine, T M (1995). The Great Highland Famine: Hunger, Emigration and the Scottish Highlands in the Nineteenth Century. Edinburgh: Birlinn Limited. ISBN 1-904607-42-X

Just to be clear, I am not of celtic/Highland/Irish heritage and have no particular axe to grind in that area – the Highland clearances is just a subject I picked in Wikipedia as having an article that did not seem to represent the academic literature. My real in interests are in the history of sailing craft. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:25, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps worth adding that the International Journal of Nautical Archaeology article added to the copyright questions page says that the Achill islanders were also prejudiced: against Clinker (boat building) construction. So they built their Yawls using Carvel (boat building) construction. A yawl (in the sense of a beach-launched, open boat) is usually clinker-built, which gives a somewhat lighter structure and so is less work to haul out of the sea when not in use. So that prejudice could be considered to come at a cost. (Their preference for the currach suggests a lot of familiarity with lighter craft and their different handling characteristics.) I've probably droned on about this too much now. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:45, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

As additional clarification: the treatment of the Catholic poor in Ireland was very similar to that of Scottish Gaels in the Scottish Highlands. The two regions are/have been geographically, linguistically and historically related. In the time of the potato famine they had relief supervised by Victorian era politicians and civil servants with the same political dogma and prejudices. The Congested Districts boards of both countries were the social engineering projects that tried to deal with the long-standing problems that were recognised after the famine. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

But what did the (if I may use a technical term from Ireland) feckin' idjits have against the currach? --Orange Mike | Talk 23:03, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

That's a simple question with a very complex answer. British authorities regarded the currach as "primitive" – they could be referred to as "canoes" (which then had connotations of native craft from far away countries: the word is Arawak in origin). With, probably, the best of intentions, they wanted to improve the productivity of the local fishing industry. The ultimate target was larger, decked craft. This was the sort of vessel the colonial decision-makers found familiar. They would have to use the piers being constructed as improvement efforts. The authors of the cited paper suggest that this would give control over the activities of the residents of Achill Island (and all of County Mayo). But the ability to pull a boat up on any bit of beach or flat rock was important, so there was little success in achieving the full ambition of authorities. These good but possibly misguided ambitions can be seen with the efforts to transform the Scottish Highland fisheries industry, where, particularly in response to terrible loss of life in a particular storm, boats like the Zulu (fishing boat) were the result. (Interestingly, fishermen from the north of Scotland initially resisted decked boats, partly because their fear of falling overboard was greater than the fear of an open boat being swamped – which is an arguably reasonable point of view.)

Among the bad consequences of this was that, as the potato famine was current, 13 curraghs (using the variant spelling) were confiscated by customs officials. This deprived their owners from fish as a source of food. This seems to me to typify the bad administration of celtic districts of Britain. Some well-meaning senior official comes up with an idea born out of good intentions. We then see prominent instances of crass and heavy handed implementation by the lower ranking officials. Who knows how common these bad cases were; having newspapers as the source of information hides the benign actions of the same people as these are not newsworthy.

It is very easy to form a simple yes/no opinion of this sort of administration. Having read more about the Scottish Highland potato famine, I will pull an example from there. The widespread political ideology of the time was that the free market was of great importance. So provided emergency famine relief in the form of oatmeal should not distort the commercial market in that commodity. However those operating this policy managed to deliver cargoes of meal which were sold at "market prices" which were lower because of the presence of those deliveries. They then used existing legislation which (after careful examination by those who draft laws) was found to enable public funding of estate improvements (building roads, harbours, etc.) which provided income to the impoverished people so that they could buy the famine relief food. So we have government officials who use all their intelligence to work within the system and provide the help that was so desperately needed. In the Scottish situation, the consensus view of historians is that there were no deaths clearly and solely attributed to famine once relief measures were under way – and these happened promptly. So, whilst we might look with amazement at what we see as poor decision-making, the real situation is a lot more complex. Administrators might have been incompetent or misguided and working within widely accepted ideological constraints, but it is hard to find an example of any who were actually wilfully careless or malevolent. I am, I am afraid, very fond of the shades of grey in any situation. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:41, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

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Thanks for your block on the Username I reported yesterday at WP:UAA. It seemed a clear cut case to me, and I was discouraged when the initial response was against my view. I try to make each report a worthy use of my time, and others’ of course, so when I checked just now and found you had taken matters in hand, I cheered back up.

The misuse of User pages is a growing problem, and while it may not seem like a big deal to some editors, I see it as serious. Thanks again for your action. Salutations! Jusdafax (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Can you help me fix this article Draft: Ahmed Abdulhakim Jdjdkkdk (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

No. This is a biography of a living person without any reliable sourcing whatsoever. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:47, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

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Hello Orangemike, I see that you made a username block on Srushti Tawade as it matches that of a well known living person. I have found this name while patrolling new account creation but the UAA report was declined by Cullen328 here. At the COI board action was also declined by WikiDan61 here.
My question is, where exactly did I get this so wrong? After two admins declined action it appeared to have been a really bad call on my part and biting a newcomer. But now I see that nonetheless the account name is blocked unless the editor can verify her identity. I took a wikibreak because I'm obviously missing something. Blue Riband► 14:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I take the position that if you create an article about Fred Potrzebie, you are yourself asserting that Fred Potrzebie is a notable person, and thus an unauthenticated account in the name User:Fred Potrzebie is an impersonation of the person Fred Potrzebie who you yourself contend is notable. They can't have it both ways: if Srushti Tawade is notable, then a user account in their name is subject to an impersonation block.

And please take yourself off wikibreak. You're a thoughtful editor and we need those. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I think this is an edge case, Blue Riband, so please do not be so hard on yourself. Real names are allowed but impersonation is not. I see no evidence of impersonation although it is possible. The editor did not try to write an article about Srushti Tawade but rather created a userpage. They identified as a rapper but many editors mention their occupation. What I wanted to see was more editing. If they started spamming in article space and claiming to be a big star without evidence, then a block would be justified. If they made a COI declaration and began a reasonable AFC draft, then a block would not be justified. If they edited appropriately about another topic, then a block would not be justified. So, I wanted to see more editing, but Orangemike made his judgment based on the infobox, I assume. I think both assessments are well within the range of administrator discretion. I just wanted to see a bit more evidence but Orangemike concluded that there was enough evidence. So be it. And I agree with him that you are a good editor, so I hope that your break will be brief. Cullen328 (talk) 17:56, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Mike, my dear friend Carol Leigh passed yesterday from cancer. I am having an issue with editing in date of death as I do not know birth month and date and this causes an error. How do I do this? Thanks! --BenBurch (talk) 15:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

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Hi Orangemike,

I was curious after I saw that you blocked that user here after a single edit why you chose not to warn them the usual 4 times first? TY — Moops ^⋠T⋡ 21:24, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Perfectly reasonable question. The username, combined with the nature of that first edit, made it quite clear that they were here to commit Public Relations and Promotion, not to improve the encyclopedia in any way. That is why I applied a NOTHERE block to User:Wiki PR Promote & Protect. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:24, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

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Hi Orange Mike, can you please restore The Great Transition – the personalization of finance is here. I am not advertising the book. May I know more detail why it's deleted?. Is it because the page has link to purchase sites like amazon etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainyweathero (talk • contribs) 15:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

This sockpuppet has been blocked. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:00, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Serialarticlechanger racial slurs. Thanks, Knitsey (talk) 01:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Quick facts Eight years! ...

Precious

Eight years!

Close

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:46, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

What do you think EllCA stands for? Presumably Council of Australia for the CA, but Ell (surname) + company initials, or Emily Leigh Lee would be the sort of thing that is explicitly allowed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:22, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Without more info, we don't know whether Ell stands for "Electronic law librarian" or "Elliot from Llandudno". Unless clarified, I think we have to assume it's a role account; it's certainly a s.p.a. with a severe undisclosed COI. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:56, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Since you don't know whether there's a violation of that policy, why did you decide to act like there's a violation, instead of assuming compliance or asking for more information? In my experience, most people are happy to say talk about their usernames. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

A name that blatantly redolent of undisclosed COI editing seemed to me to call for a block. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:21, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Undisclosed? When people indicate the name of an organization in their username, I think that counts as "disclosure".

My concern is really about the message you left, not about whether the account was blocked. Consider the (very real) possibility that the username already complies with the policy, because it represents one individual human's real-world name. You've left a message that says "You are welcome to continue editing after you have chosen a new username that complies with Wikipedia's username policy." (bold in the original). Okay, so the editor goes to read the username policy, and discovers that their blocked username already complies with the username policy. Now what? Ask to change it anyway? Give up in confusion? Decide to make a clean start that completely hides any affiliation at all? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:59, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Their failure to respond in any way (and I was right there ready to help) suggests to me that this was what might be referred to as a "fair cop". --Orange Mike | Talk 18:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I was hoping for a deserved block + relevant and accurate message, rather than deserved block + message with possibly irrelevant directions.

Like "It looks like you're associated with this group, and we have rules against COI editing", rather than "I think you're a COI violator, so please change your username, even though your existing name is probably already in compliance with the username policy". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I think we're at a point where reasonable editors can reasonably disagree. Unless the blocked account asks for unblocking and addresses my concern, I think we're done here. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:26, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2022).

Administrator changes

• Eddie891
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Interface administrator changes

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Oversight changes

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Guideline and policy news

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Arbitration

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Miscellaneous

• Tech tip: A single IPv6 connection usually has access to a "subnet" of 18 quintillion IPs. Add /64 to the end of an IP in Special:Contributions to see all of a subnet's edits, and consider blocking the whole subnet rather than an IP that may change within a minute.

While I agree the account's edits appear promotional, how was this a username violation? I don't see a connection between the username and the subject of the deleted sandbox article. ceranthor 02:52, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The deleted sandbox article appears to be an ad for his Bulgarian news blog (domain .bg). --Orange Mike | Talk 02:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't see any mention of a news blog, only tiktok and other social media for Itsgeorgiev. Certainly promotional, but doesn't seem to be related to the username? ceranthor 02:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I admit I don't read Bulgarian, but it looks like a lot of guys I see who set up personal news websites, which is what the username would lead you to expect. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. Just wanted to clarify. ceranthor 03:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Myself and another editor have pinged you to User talk:Rrhodes, questioning your block of this user. You've been logged in and edited but have failed to respond. Would you object to my unblocking Rrhodes? --Hammersoft (talk) 14:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

While I think my block was in accordance with our rules, and that the account claiming to be Rhodes still should be expected to provide the proper proof of identity, I will not get in a huff if you unblock that account without such expectation of proof. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:11, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. I will unblock, and reinforce again that they should follow the advice given in the block notice. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:40, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I usually do that. Sorry not to have done it this time. Edit: I usually do it, and was trying to hide my identity because I was using a dummy account. Sorry not to tell you. Second edit: I only took some of your advice, since I used a comma and "as well as" as the second conjunction. Sorry. I still appreciate your advice, though.Greberrevin (talk) 04:07, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

"As well as" is one of those conjunctions, like "also", that add to word count without contributing much of any semantic content. (And don't sweat the lack of "please"; compared to the death threats, the anti-semitic vandalism, etc., I don't sweat the social lubricants. --Orange Mike | Talk 04:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@OrangeMike: Thanks. Could you please tell me why you would choose a semicolon? Edit: Whatever the answer, I took your advice out of guilt before replying on this talk page, though I see your reasoning about word count.

Second edit: Sorry to have created an entirely different, which, I've heard, this website generally forbids, and also sorry about not adding edits on another line. I'll edit this for that.--Greberrevin (talk) 04:28, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Regarding this what are you threatening me with, and why? I have referred a dispute to a Noticeboard. As far as I am aware, this not a wikicrime; I believe that it is, on the contrary, a recommended procedure. Sweet6970 (talk) 15:28, 19 December 2022 (UTC) 

You have made a clearly false accusation of biased editing against your fellow editors. A Wiki-boomerang is what happens when a clearly false accusation leads to the examination of the behavior of the accuser as well as the accused, and the community concludes that the behavior of the accuser calls for adverse consequences. In this case, I feel it is clear that you are the one trying to introduce bias into the article. My colleagues, of course, may disagree with me. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:58, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

First of all, I have not made an accusation against anyone. I referred a dispute to the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard. If you are saying that referring any dispute to this noticeboard constitutes an accusation, then this system becomes unusable. Where is the accusation?

Secondly, I have asked you questions on that noticeboard about why you think that the current version of the article is neutral. I don’t know whether you have yet had a chance to review these questions – but in fact, you should have looked at this before you made your threat to me. Having chosen to intervene by threatening me, you have an obligation to answer those questions.

Thirdly, I still don’t know what you are threatening me with – and rather more importantly, why you think you have grounds for threatening me, instead of examining the dispute.

Sweet6970 (talk) 20:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Sparkle has already made all the points I would have needed to make. All I am "threatening" is that your edits will be examined by other editors (not necessarily myself) to see whether they show signs of bias. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

You have not answered my question – you have accused me of making a false accusation, and have refused to specify the accusation I have supposedly made. I gather that you are now saying you will not answer my reasonable, good faith, questions, because you agree with the ‘points’ made by the other editor.

What you have done is (1) you have made a personal attack against me, and (2) you have prevented anyone else from taking this dispute seriously – they will look at your comments, and because you are an admin, they will think that you have given consideration to the dispute, and decided it against me.

My view is that you have a moral obligation to examine the material of this dispute. Either that, or you should strike your comment at the noticeboard, and on the Talk page of the article, and apologise to me.

By the way, you have referred to me as ‘trying to introduce bias into the article’. If you examine what has gone on, you will find that the article used to give inf about the SNP MSPs revolt. And I have set out the old and the new wording relating to Reem Alsalem, and said that I am in favour of the old wording. So your comment doesn’t even make sense.

Sweet6970 (talk) 20:43, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I examined the content you want to put into the article, and concurred that it did not convey an accurate picture of the situation. My conclusions are my own, and have no extra power due to my being an admin, any more than they do because I'm of Scots ancestry or any other irrelevant factor. I do not see that I have anything to apologize about. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

It is not exactly a question of what I want to ‘put in the article’ – in some cases (e.g. the SNP revolt, and the wording relating to Reem Alsalem) I want to go back to the old wording (not drafted by me). It looks as if you still have not examined the dispute.

If you have examined the material, then you will be able to answer my questions, as set out on the noticeboard, without any additional work. So please do so.

You should apologise to me for making unfounded accusations against me. You have accused me of making a false accusation against another editor, when I had made no accusation at all. And in an edit summary, you said Your bias and agenda are quite evident.. Whilst we all (including you) have our biases, your comment that my ‘agenda’ is ‘evident’ is an accusation that I edit Wikipedia in a deliberately partisan way. This is another personal attack, for which you should apologise.

Sweet6970 (talk) 21:59, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

Orangemike,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
Abishe (talk) 21:09, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Abishe (talk) 21:09, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

Orangemike,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 03:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 03:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

HNY, OM! 2022 was a difficult year in many ways, but it did have its high points – meeting you was one of them! (I'm not sure if you connect my WP user name with my offline identity which I won't disclose here, but we did meet and I have an OrangeMike pin to ahow for it! :-) ) Cheers, --bonadea contributions talk 15:09, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Drop me an e-mail, then, so that (as we say in English) the penny will drop! --Orange Mike | Talk 15:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Sensible suggestion. Done. --bonadea contributions talk 21:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2022).

Administrator changes

• ComplexRational
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Stephen

• Andrew Yong
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Interface administrator changes

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CheckUser changes

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Oversighter changes

• GeneralNotability
• Moneytrees

• Guerillero
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Guideline and policy news

• Speedy deletion criterion A5 (transwikied articles) has been repealed following an unopposed proposal.

Arbitration

• Following the 2022 Arbitration Committee elections, the following editors have been appointed to the Arbitration Committee: Barkeep49, CaptainEek, GeneralNotability, Guerillero, L235, Moneytrees, Primefac, SilkTork.
• The 2021-22 Discretionary Sanctions Review has concluded with many changes to the discretionary sanctions procedure including a change of the name to "contentious topics". The changes are being implemented over the coming month.
• The arbitration case Stephen has been closed.

Miscellaneous

• Voting for the Sound Logo has closed and the winner is expected to be announced February to April 2023.
• Tech tip: You can view information about IP addresses in a centralised location using bullseye which won the Newcomer award in the recent Coolest Tool Awards.

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News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2023).

Administrator changes Gimmetrow Bjelleklang Bob the Wikipedian Leithp WhisperToMe 100 inactive admins

CheckUser changes BDD Bradv Donald Albury Maxim MusikAnimal Oversighter changes BDD Bradv Donald Albury Maxim

Guideline and policy news

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• Following a community discussion, consensus has been found to impose the extended-confirmed restriction over the topic areas of Armenia and Azerbaijan and Kurds and Kurdistan.

Technical news

• The Vector 2022 skin has become the default for desktop users of the English Wikipedia.

Arbitration

• The arbitration case Armenia-Azerbaijan 3 has been opened and the proposed decision is expected 24 February 2023.
• In December, the contentious topics procedure was adopted which replaces the former discretionary sanctions system. The contentious topics procedure is now in effect following an initial implementation period. There is a detailed summary of the changes and administrator instructions for the new procedure. The arbitration clerk team are taking suggestions, concerns, and unresolved questions about this new system at their noticeboard.

Miscellaneous

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I'm not sure how to edit a wiki page myself but I was watching a kids cartoon on PBS (Liberty's Kids) in season 1 episode 5 (4:00 minute mark) there is talk of a secret society called the Mechanics (craftsman patriots) that is similar to the Sons of Liberty (commerce patriots). Since you were one of the main contributors I thought I should say something to you about it. Anyways thanks for the time of day have a good one dude :) 174.31.254.156 (talk) 00:33, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

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News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2023).

Administrator changes The Wordsmith Fuhghettaboutit Spinningspark (deceased)

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• Following a request for comment, F10 (useless non-media files) has been deprecated.
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... at the "March 2023" section on my talkpage. A second opinion would be welcome, and I trust yours. Thanks. – _•Raven  ^.talk 13:19, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

While you're at it, I'd welcome any opinions about Most Serene Federal Republic of Montmartre. Particularly from fans of tiny places (e.g. micronations), disappearing people(s), bold living performances, that sort of thing. You see why I ask you. – _•Raven  ^.talk 19:39, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

dear let me know if you can ad a page for Bankset its now covered all over the world and a unique product notable all over the news https://www.azocleantech.com/news.aspx?newsID=33129 https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/new-technology/technology-trending-solar-railways-brain-inspired-computing-propellors-for-e-planes/ https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/solar-panel-carpet-on-railway-tracks https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/bankset-kommt-der-sonnenstrom-der-zukunft-vom-bahngleis-a-b1d5885c-0002-0001-0000-000178959727 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/bahn-strom-umweltschutz-photovoltaik-1.5590126?reduced=true https://www.tdg.ch/sun-ways-veut-poser-des-panneaux-solaires-entre-les-rails-971345109917 https://www.tdg.ch/sun-ways-veut-poser-des-panneaux-solaires-entre-les-rails-971345109917 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/power-generating-railway-tracks-are-coming-down-the-line/48355960

--Bibamberg (talk) 20:07, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Orangemike. Would you mind looking at Cabotcoop. The account appears to be a violation of WP:PROMONAME and possibly WP:ISU based on a recent edit summary. I tagged added notifications for COI and username stuff back in 2016, but the account went dormant so there was no need for action back then. Someone, however, claiming to be connected to Cabot Creamery has started to reuse it again. — Marchjuly (talk) 19:26, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look at this. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:38, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

This time it's User talk:Kwamikagami#Removals from Category:Ancient peoples and User talk:.Raven#Racist use of "tribe" to mean "primitive". Kwamikagami (talk · contribs) seems to have a grievance about the words "ancient" and "tribe", feeling they're both pejorative with the sense of "primitive" — and accordingly has removed from articles such categories as 'Ancient peoples' and 'Tribes of Oceania'. I reverted. K re-reverted some, demanding RSs to show the topic groups were tribes. I provided cites, one the only footnote already in the article. K rejected that as not an RS. (Then why was it still in the article?) I provided another, an online newspaper from the region; that one K rejected as "racist" and therefore also not an RS. At this point I think any source using the term "tribe" will likewise be auto-rejected. I emphatically do not want to edit-war this person, but it's already reached that point on at least one article. Time for other opinions, please. – _•Raven  ^.talk 04:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I accepted your 2 anthropological sources for "tribe" as RS's. I don't have a problem with the word: even the national museum in Accra uses it, though they're careful to define it and use in accordingly (i.e. that a 'tribe' is a hierarchical social unit within a nation, often with a legendary founder, but larger than kin-based groups like clans). I do have a problem calling nations "tribes" just because we judge them to be primitive, even when they don't have a tribal social structure. It would be the same if you were arguing that a king was a "chief" or a religion was a "fetish". You could find sources to back you up, if you have no criteria for what you accept.

"Tribe" is a unit of social organization. As such, a RS would be anthropological or from a similar discipline. Per W:RS, a tabloid newspaper is not a RS for anthropological claims.

Also, because of the historical problem of racism in anthropology, a RS should be recent.

As for "ancient", you're the one who introduced the cut-off date of 476 AD. An "ancient" people should therefore have existed by that time. There is no evidence that the Khoekhoe and Ket are "ancient" by that definition, yet you insist that they are because ... why exactly? There is no evidence; these claims seem to be based on their culture and the fact that they were there before someone else -- eg., that they're indigenous primitives. If that's what "ancient" is to mean, then we should apply it consistently, but good luck finding a working definition for "primitive". This is the kind of ethnocentric thinking that once infected anthropology, and which people have been trying hard to move away from.

— kwami (talk) 04:33, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

1) "I do have a problem calling nations 'tribes' just because we judge them to be primitive...." — But you are the only person suggesting that is either its definition or its usage. Per Tribe (Native American), "The international meaning of the English word tribe is a people organized with a non–state government, who typically claim descent from a common founder and who speaks the same language."

2) The best way to find out what a word (like "ancient") means is to refer to a dictionary. I pointed (twice before this) to Merriam-Webster's definition of the adjective "ancient" as "of or relating to the historical period beginning with the earliest known civilizations and extending to the fall of the western Roman Empire in a.d. 476". If you feel it should have some other cut-off date, or a criterion such as "primitive", I invite you to persuade the dictionary publishers, not make Wikipedia the re-definer.

3) Why should I find "a working definition for 'primitive'"? I don't use that criterion, nor does the definition posted here.

4) Read the articles. Khoekhoe: "The broad ethnic designation of 'Khoekhoen', meaning the peoples originally part of a pastoral culture and language group to be found across Southern Africa, is thought to refer to a population originating in the northern area of modern Botswana. This culture steadily spread southward, eventually reaching the Cape approximately 2,000 years ago." Ket people: "The Kets are thought to be the only survivors of an ancient nomadic people believed to have originally inhabited central and southern Siberia." – _•Raven  ^.talk 05:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

1) By this definition, the Basques are a "tribe". And, as I noted before, a political "Tribe" in Usonian usage is not the same as "tribe". I'd refer you back to the article on tribe that you referred me to.

2) I'm not debating the cut-off date. I'm happy to accept it. You're the one that refuses to accept it after citing it.

4) So, the French are an "ancient people" because they descend from Romans who settled the area 2,000 years ago. Yet the French are not categorized as one of the ancient peoples of Europe. The difference, of course, is that the French are 'civilized' while the Ket are 'primitive'. Which brings us back to:

3) if the difference between the French and the Ket is not age but culture, then you need to come up with a definition of culture that qualifies a people as 'ancient' so that we can categorize them consistently.

— kwami (talk) 06:04, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

1) "By this definition, the Basques are a 'tribe'." — By what definition? Above, we're discussing "ancient". This is disjoint from "tribe". Elsewhere I quoted from Tribe (Native American): "The international meaning of the English word tribe is a people organized with a non–state government, who typically claim descent from a common founder and who speaks the same language."

Well, less than 30% (as few as 19%) of Basques speak Euskara, mainly right along the French-Spanish border; the rest mostly speak just French or Spanish, depending on which side of the border they live — or English in an English-speaking country, etc.

Claim descent from a common founder? I wonder who that could be. Basque DNA has been detected in Stone Age skeletons in northern Spain, so they've been there that long, and "ancient people" fits. (The Romans called them "Vascones"... and they may well have been tribal then.)

Non-state government? Mmm, no: there's civil government under French or Spanish law, not limited to anyone, and although changes have happened, that isn't one of them. Any non-Basque can immigrate there and participate, subject to the limits of French or Spanish law.

No, Basque is an ethnic group but not (now) a tribe. Another example of why the two are different things.

2) Where have I "refused to accept" a 476 cut-off date?

4) and 3) The Franks may well have been tribal. France has not been since before it took that name. Again the difference in political rules: you needn't be of any given ethnicity, let alone related to anyone, to become a French citizen. There are French from everywhere. Including, of course, Basques. – _•Raven  ^.talk 10:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I Kinda Sorry :c I just use it because of the help desk & village pump on wikimedia commons. NatwonTSG2 (talk) 18:27, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2023).

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Guideline and policy news

• A community RfC is open to discuss whether reports primarily involving gender-related disputes or controversies should be referred to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

Technical news

• Some older web browsers will not be able to use JavaScript on Wikimedia wikis starting this week. This mainly affects users of Internet Explorer 11. (T178356)
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Arbitration

• The Armenia-Azerbaijan 3 case has been closed.
• A case about World War II and the history of Jews in Poland has been opened, with the first evidence phase closing 6 April 2023.

Talk:Theban script#Requested move 3 April 2023. – _•Raven  ^.talk 04:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

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Dear @Orangemike, I know you deleted Juby in 2013, as a CSD A7, but the page has been recreated with different content, so can you please undelete old revisions of Juby, deleted via CSD A7 as it is a criteria not allowed on WP:RFU. Yours sincerely, TechGeek105 (his talk page) 23:48, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing worth restoring. If you really want, I can e-mail you the deleted text; but you'll see it's not worth undeleting. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:57, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Orangemike, my email address is <redacted> Yours sincerely, TechGeek105 (his talk page) 08:04, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

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Hi Orangemike, why is my user space page "G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion"? It is the same as the main namespace version, except that the events are put in chronological order, plus a table added to be able to see which part is not in order and an assumed respect level is indicated. How should I change the article draft to be able to keep it alive on my user page? I created the page to help the discussion with other wikipedians as I have notified them here: On User talk:Bbb23's page we are already talking about it. As per Wikipedia:User pages: "User pages are pages for organizing the work users do on Wikipedia, as well as speaking to other users." Eightbillion (talk) 19:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

It is part of your ongoing campaign to publicize the unsupported claims of the Grabovoi cult, and has no place anywhere in Wikipedia space. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:36, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Please watch this short documentary about him from 2002: "Mission of Grigori Grabovoi" https://www.net-film.ru/film-10054/

(Russia's largest archive of documentary films and newsreels for film professionals. Materials are digitized in HD, 2K, and 4K formats.)

I think it should be a wikipedia-reliable source.

It has no subtitles, so you may want to watch any of these as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6tSu0NFpMo (can be auto-translated to English)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YSmR4wrFGI (narrated in English)

I found that he was not criticised in media before 2004, before his announcement of being the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. So for this reason I created the helper page to show this information to other wikipedians and discuss it with them. This helper page is not yet a change request nor a change in the mainspace article, it is only a discussion helper page. Anyone can read the events in order but only when they are ordered. Currently the article mixes them up which leads to a false picture of him. First, I simply ask for to see the events in order and later I would like to propose to put the events in order in the article as well. I think in a biography at least one section should have all the events in chronological order.

What do you think? Eightbillion (talk) 06:53, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. Eightbillion has now been indefinitely blocked, as was obviously going to happen before long. JBW (talk) 08:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

And consider rev/deleting personal attacks by the poor soul . Cheers, 76.119.253.82 (talk) 04:04, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, how about revoking TPA for 73? Tails Wx 04:04, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Orangemike and @Scope creep, greetings! I noticed both of you have declined the creation of the subject back in 2009 and 2019. Could I kindly request to reconsider? He is the Co-Founder and Chairman of the Board of American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine, Chairman of the International Medical Commission, President Emeritus of National Academy of Sports Medicine and Founder and Chairman of the International Sports Hall of Fame. He is an iconic figure in sports and physical culture: https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/robert_goldman_exclusive_interview.htm and https://ussa.edu/news/dr-robert-goldman-receives-arnold-classic-lifetime-achievement-award/ will give you further insight. Appreciate your support and approval on this. Thank you. Nir007H (talk) 20:52, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

The "article" in 2009 was a shameless, cloying advertisement for the guy, with no adequate sourcing. You should start from scratch, and find solid sources for all content. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:14, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the green light @Orangemike. I will do my best. Nir007H (talk) 13:17, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

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Administrator changes Spicy Ale jrb Dbachmann DGG (deceased) Jimbo Wales

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Arbitration

• The proposed decision in the World War II and the history of Jews in Poland case is expected 11 May 2023.

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• The Wikimedia Foundation annual plan 2023-2024 draft is open for comment and input through May 19. The final plan will be published in July 2023.