User talk:Sitush/Archive 11

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thank you for your efforts and extraordinary patience in making Iyengar article better. Best wishes. Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 18:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedians missing u!!

Dear Sitush, I hope u r recovering well n' fast. In absence of u, there are several pages started being vandalized like Chamar, Jatav, Mahar n there must be many more. For example in Jatav and Chamar they have added Todd's listing claiming they are part of 36 royal races. It is impossible to deal with them, who edit from new ips or freshly created IDs, w/o a person like u watching over these articles.

Wish u a fast n speedy recovery.Jethwarp (talk) 03:59, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I'll start looking into Chamar. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:22, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Qwyrxian, if possible pl also look into Jatav, I had removed the content and has been added back by some fresh Id.Jethwarp (talk) 04:45, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, You are being missed :(

	A cigar for You
	According to Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara, "A smoke in times of rest is a great companion to the solitary soldier." I wish, Your earthly body recovers swiftly :) ← Abstruce 16:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

!!

Hi Sitush
I unilaterally disengage from caste articles and any discussions therein with you , for next 2 months . Get well soon : ) Intothefire (talk) 10:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

There is no need to disengage from anything other than time-consuming collation of perceived inconsistencies. I mean, you might have the time to spare but your success rate is very low and it consumes a vast amount of other people's time that could be better spent improving the project elsewhere. None of us are perfect and if you try to compare, say, something done a couple of years ago with an action from last week then sooner or later you will find an inconsistency: people change, policies and guidelines change, sources change etc. It really is not a terribly productive thing in which to engage. - Sitush (talk) 11:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sitush
I unilaterally disengage from caste articles and any discussions therein with you , for next 2 months . Get well soon : ) Intothefire (talk) 10:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

There is no need to disengage from anything other than time-consuming collation of perceived inconsistencies. I mean, you might have the time to spare but your success rate is very low and it consumes a vast amount of other people's time that could be better spent improving the project elsewhere. None of us are perfect and if you try to compare, say, something done a couple of years ago with an action from last week then sooner or later you will find an inconsistency: people change, policies and guidelines change, sources change etc. It really is not a terribly productive thing in which to engage. - Sitush (talk) 11:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Welcome ....

... back! --regentspark (comment) 13:08, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll still be on a go-slow for a bit and it'll take me a while to go through my watchlist. Anyone fancy a wager on how long before I'm reported to ANI for something caste-related? - Sitush (talk) 15:38, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Not to long, I should think. BTW, Blade is giving a talk on 'editing on caste' at a Wikipedia event today that I was hoping to attend but the spouse has stuck me with child care duties. :( --regentspark (comment) 16:31, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Really? Although he's likely got a lot of his experience in the Indic aspect via me, I am not going to admit responsibility for any errors! I wonder if he has a transcript - I'd be interested to see it. - Sitush (talk) 16:34, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Good point. I'll pop a note on his talk page and ask. --regentspark (comment) 16:35, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back!

• Introduction
• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• How to write a great article

Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name using four tildes (~~~~); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post.

I hope you enjoy editing here again and being a Wikipedian! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page, consult Wikipedia:Questions, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there.

Again, welcome back! Qwyrxian (talk) 15:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to give you the links to decrease your chances of getting in trouble for something :). Very glad that you're feeling better. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that those links will prevent me getting into trouble. In fact, it is those links that cause the trouble: if everyone could just write what the heck they know to be true etc ... BTW, I've never yet looked at Wikipedia:Article development, so perhaps now is the time. Anything to prolong a look at the outcome of the ArbCom proceedings, of which I've heard nothing but really, really could do with avoiding until my blood pressure is nearer to where it should be. - Sitush (talk) 15:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I am so happy to see you back! Don't let anything here get your blodd pressure up. It certainly isn't worth it. However, should you ever need assistance with anything, please feel free to ask. I am always willing to help even if we don't often agree. Again, welcome back!--Amadscientist (talk) 01:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. As far as I am aware, any differences that we have had relate to a specific issue that has nothing much to do with the purpose of Wikipedia. It was one disagreement and it was the personal aspect that caused the problems. We'll probably never agree on the relevance of that but it really does not stand in the way of what we are here for and I do very much appreciate your thoughts. I will not be up to full speed for a while yet but have done a bit of editing as a 2.* IP over the last few weeks (I tried to declare it as best I could but probably not as well as I should have done). - Sitush (talk) 01:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Here's to your health, Sitush! (Lifting invisible glass for a toast to you.) --Orlady (talk) 02:19, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, you are still with us. That is good news, indeed. I hope that the invisible glass contained actual liquid. Thanks, Orlady! - Sitush (talk) 11:22, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Hey Sitush, Greetings from India as well ← Abstruce 12:02, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Welcome back! --Tito Dutta (talk) 08:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm late to the party, but I'm also glad to see your return!! LadyofShalott 01:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• • • Thanks, all. Given how the "Arbitrary heading" thread below is developing, I may be back on the cardio ward before too long :( - Sitush (talk) 01:54, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading

Hello sitush, do you have any recommendation regarding a page that i can go to on how to do categories? Also regarding Raju page, not exactly sure what you mean. I'm pretty well versed on the topic as well as other communities from AP and am working to make it a better page, with citations. Not exactly sure what a sockpuppet is but I have not made any changes that would be regarded as unconstructive or unsourced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.22.29.198 (talk) 22:18, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, can it wait until tomorrow? I rather thought that you might ask this question about categories and I'm sorry not to have given you some links in the first place. They are complicated beasties and sometimes seem almost to be in a Wikipedia world of their own. I learned what little I know about them the hard way - by looking at what others do and checking the odd guideline or policy - but they are not my strong point. I do know that your attempts are largely (but not completely) the wrong way to deal with things but I need to find some decent explanation, especially for how overcategorisation is frowned upon. - Sitush (talk) 01:22, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I've found the article: WP:Overcategorization should hopefully go a long way to explaining the issues. - Sitush (talk) 11:11, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Would you mind telling me what a "reliable" source is in your expert opion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.22.29.198 (talk) 15:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

One of Wikipedia's major policies is that statements in our articles must be verifiable. Verifiability is ensured by using reliable sources. With some exceptions, there are no hard-and-fast rules regarding what is or is not a reliable source, at least in part because we operate on the basis of consensus and so things can change over time. An example of something that is (and is likely always) going to be considered unreliable would be an open wiki such as jatland.com: anyone can edit that, just as anyone can edit Wikipedia, and thus there are inherent problems regarding the authoritativeness of the content. Similarly, we do not cite our own articles, although that is primarily because it would create a circular reference.

More usually, the reliability of a source often depends on the purpose for which it is being cited. For example, a self-published source would be reliable only for basic facts in an article about a living person: we want independent, neutral sources and not ones that are likely to have bias because they are written by the subject but it is usually safe to accept, for example, the subject's disclosure of when and where they were born (although, yes, sometimes they do mess around with their own ages!) On the other hand, a recent book written by an tenured academic and published by a university press is almost without exception going to be considered prima facie reliable for, well, just about anything that it deals with.

I am unsure of the context that gives rise to your question but hopefully some of the links in this reply will help. We have a Reliable Sources Noticeboard for assistance with any protracted problems but even there you will not get a specific answer to your question because there is no context. RSN is also, in my opinion, something of a last resort: issues should first be raised on article talk pages etc.

Feel free to ask a more specific question here. For example, what article are you thinking of, what source and for what statement(s) in the article? I'll try to help you although, as I say above, it is more usual to raise the issue on the article talk page. - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your info, Is a court ruling with it's rational for the ruling not considered reliable information. Is the court of public opinion considered more reliable than the court of law? If not by what intellectual logic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.22.29.198 (talk) 00:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

No problem - glad to help. Court rulings and similar legal documents are primary sources. We are not qualified to assess/interpret them and therefore they are unreliable in the Wikipedia sense of the term. This issue has cropped up on several Indian caste articles in my time on Wikipedia and the consensus has always been the same. In particular, the Raj courts were known for weird and contradictory rulings, among a myriad of cases relating to sanskritisation (or "usually puffery", if you want the cynical term). Find a secondary source of good standing that mentions the ruling and you may have a chance, but the primary source itself is a non-starter. - Sitush (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Please read http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1984271/?type=print. It is the court ruling from the Andhra Pradesh High court. It was brought to contest an election petition by a member of the Raju community. It gives a detailed account of the rational for the ruling. You don't have t interpret it, it tells you excatly why they ruled for it. The candidate who did not want to be designated as a Kshatriya used many of the sources wiki deems as valid to argue his cause, yet the court found they were not legitimate sources. It basically states anyone belonging to the Raju caste has to acknowlege themselves as "Kshatriya" for the purposes of procuring an election seat or a reservatio seat. It makes no sense to argue about a castes varna status without citing this ruling. Basically in real life, if a Raju tries to get a seat in school, or run for an election post, he must apply or run as a kshatriya or they will lose their seat for fraud. Now the only logical way to present this is to have a section stating thier legal status and then a section of how they may have gotten thier status using the existing citations that have been deemed "varifiable" by wiki users. Do you not agree? On a side note, do you seriously feel there is a consistant, understandable flow to the existing article, I personally think it is mess.99.22.29.198 (talk) 01:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I have already read it and it is not reliable. As for the article, well, it is poor. Most caste articles are so precisely because of people using unreliable sources, no sources at all, poor English and all the usual other issues. Don't blame me - go fix it. Provided you operate within the constratins (sometimes maddening, I admit) of our policies. I must say that I am still very concerned that you may be sockpuppeting or meatpuppeting, however much this may appear to be a lack of assumption of good faith. There are some odd things going on around the Raju topic (not just the main article itself) at present and there is a history involving a proven sock. I realise that you have said you are doing your own thing but even in the last hour there have been some peculiar patterns. I really do think you need to take this to the article talk page and gain consensus because otherwise you could get tarred with an inappropriate brush due to the actions of other IP editors who are currently showing up. - Sitush (talk) 01:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

From wiki: A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term—a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock—originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an internet community who spoke to, or about himself while pretending to be another person.[1] The term now includes other uses of misleading online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a third party or organization,[2] or to circumvent a suspension or ban from a website. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym[3] and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer. Many online communities have a policy of blocking sockpuppets.

How am I in anyway going to fall in this category. Every time I have made edites i have included sources, we may debate how valid their are in your opinion. Is it your opinion that I am trying to make a puff piece out of this? I have made an effort to show all sides to the story, I haven't removed any of the contrary citations, how can that be the actions of a sockpuppet? As far as having a discussion, you have stated that what is deemed varyfiable and not is arbritary, and even your link about primary sources doesn't deem court rulings as not valid. When having these discussions, who is the final arbritator about what is a concensus, you?99.22.29.198 (talk) 01:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not saying any more here. It is the wrong venue and I am fed up of repeating myself when it comes to issues such as this. I hate to say it but I will: these court documents have never been accepted as a reliable source on any caste article or at WP:RSN. Go to Talk:Raju and get more opinions. Then you will discover what consensus is, and it will not be in your favour. - Sitush (talk) 01:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

So basically you will not allow any information that you don't approve onto this article. Anytime i make an edite you will undo it. Nevermind, this is a waste of time and a joke, but enjoy your wiki.99.22.29.198 (talk) 01:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It is not up to me. I've explained how things work. - Sitush (talk) 01:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Genetics - Iyengar article

I can prove that the other user(Mayasutra) is just uncomfortable with the contents of the genetic sources, coz i feel that he is opposed to linking iyengars with europeans. It is a very clear circumstance in this case. Playing down all sources related to genetics just because one user is uncomfortable with it, is sad. I feel that(in my opinion) he may be toying around in the talk page, & i can prove it to you with his varying/self contradictory comments. Anyhow, this one is a clear case. Hari7478 (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

For the last time, don't bring article disputes to user talk pages. Keep them on the article talk page. And just stop the sniping and personal attacks. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 21:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Jat people

Hi there,

Thanks for your message regarding Jat people. You've done great work maintaining the article - but I have a few doubts about the recent addition of the Nijjar source. It seems to me as though the book is attempting to perpetuate the author's own view of Jat origin; asserting a certain origin theory based solely upon the writings of colonial administrators. Now, although the addition is accompanied by valid citations, I'm sure you are aware of how contentious this issue can be, and often filters into other articles related to Jat people on Wikipedia, most often in ways that are unconstructive and reek of WP:OR. I think the article would benefit from the omission of the Indo-Scythian mention, as this often becomes the focus of edit wars and 3RR etc.

It is a subject that interests me, however, and I've done a bit of digging around on the genetic basis for such assumptions, which seem to disprove any genetic basis for perceived separateness of Jats from their surrounding populations. I encountered a website yesterday which seems to be dedicated to the genetics of South Asia, by testing the DNA of various South Asian populations to determine genetic affinities. Two infographics I found also include Jat participants and it is clear that the genetic makeup of Jat populations is overwhelmingly similar to their surrounding populations, which disproves any idea of a separate Scythian origin of Jats, speaking of which seems to have arisen as part of 'divide and rule' colonial policy and could therefore be considered as conjecture. I am also not sure how the Nijjar reference complies with WP:PUS, as it appears that his text is merely taking the opinions of colonial administrators as verbatim in order to assert his own view that Jats are Scythians; something that I'm not sure is any better than what the likes of 'jatworld' and their ilk seek to perpetuate.

The links that are of interest are here: and and I was wondering if you felt that it would be appropriate for this information to be included on the Jat people page, maybe as part of a statement affirming that there is no genetic basis for the Scythian origin theory of the aforementioned community. I think it would be refreshing to counteract dubious colonial claims with genetic evidence; definitely something of encyclopedic value. I would have liked to have found published journals with genetic information on Indian communities but it seems like the Harappa Ancestry Project is the only source for such information right now.

Let me know what your thoughts are.

Thanks, ^TheSuave^©

I do not care for Nijjar and have said so on the talk page, where I also said that I included him for reasons of neutrality and because he is an modern academic source, however poor I consider his Origins book to be. I also said somewhere (perhaps an edit summary in the last few days) that the Indo-Aryan claim was as unproven as the Scythian one. The bizarre World Jat Aryan Foundation goes so far as to claim that the people of Serbia are in fact migrant Jats from India! Nijjar is not the only modern supporter of the Scythian theory, by the way.

I am not keen on including genetics papers in caste articles, period. There has been a row rumbling on for several weeks at Talk:Iyengar concerning just this issue and it has gone on elsewhere in the past. Basically, they are primary sources, they are magnets for POV warriors, their conclusions are often based on very small samples and they make huge assumptions about the static nature of caste identity that simply defy historical evidence. And, after all that, they produce arcane information about "clusters" and similar that simply cannot be related in a meaningful way to any caste article. The outcome has always been the exclude the information when such rows have occurred in the last couple of years, but that might reflect my participation!

My own preference would be to remove all such claims of origin from these articles - even Brahmin ones, since some claim that the Brahmins were originally Dravidian while others say Indo-Aryan - but I doubt that can be carried. So, in the pursuit of neutrality, we end up in the unhappy state of either saying that we are all descended from apes or having to include all viable opinions shown in prima facie reliable sources even when some seem likely to not far from WP:FRINGE. I seem to recall that I've raised this issue at WT:INB but if I did then it is some time ago. I certainly queried the reliability of Nijjar there quite recently and was astonished to discover that he was an apparently respected academic. - Sitush (talk) 05:31, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I understand that you do not care for Nijjar, and I think it is admirable that you are including said source in the article even though you are not convinced of the merits of it, for the sake of neutrality. My issue is this: whenever there is a source mentioning colonial theories of origin on the Jat page, it acts as a wrecking ball that bulldozes through large numbers of articles relating to specific Jat clans, Indo-Scythians, Sakas etc. Suddenly you begin to notice dubious insertions on a large number of pages, as some editors think that they are qualified to link Jats to all sorts of (mainly European) groups since the main article mentions a colonial theory linking Jats to Scythians, which is a dubious theory in itself.

My rationale for the possible inclusion of some sort of genetic study would be counteract such nonsense, since I am almost certain that the inclusion of the Nijjar reference will likely lead to a barrage of WP:OR on pages relating to Jat clans at some point in the future. I also understand that the inclusion of genetic information is problematic in itself, so my view right now is that the Nijjar reference and reference to Indo-Scythian origins should be omitted from the Jat people page, since this information always leads to largely negative effects on a large number of pages relating to Jats, and often become a point of contention and edit warring. The colonial theories are largely based on links made between the cognate of the word 'Jats' and other groups, without any substantive scientific evidence for these links. Nijjar may be an academic (even after looking at your query of Nijjars's work I still don't see enough material to refer to him as a 'respected academic') but his work is largely replicating colonial theories without mentioning any recent research that he has carried out on the topic, and it does seem as though the Jat-Scythian linkage theory has been notably absent in a lot of academic work in recent times - possibly a sign of obsoletion?

Once again, you do a lot of great academic work on here, and it is refreshing to discuss a situation such as this with a knowledgeable editor. I do think, however, that the Indo-Scythian mentions on the Jat page should be omitted, for the reasons mentioned above. I also agree with your omission of the Indo-Aryan mentions on the page too. Many thanks, ^TheSuave^©

User:RTPking

Hi Sitush, this user has been here for around three months. I highly suspect that he is a sock of User:Padmalakshmisx who was known for constant POV pushing in Telugu cinema article. While I started a SPI case before a while, the CU closed the case marking that the account is no way connected with the previous socks. While an RFC is going on in the talk page of Telugu cinema article this edit made by them has increased my suspicion. I'm pretty much sure that the user has shifted to some other place or might be using a new hand for editing purposes. —Vensatry _{(Ping me)} 06:12, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yeah. That edit alone certainly looks like Padmalakshmisx. However, if a CU turned up nothing then we are going to need a lot more stylistic evidence. - Sitush (talk) 06:16, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Are there any linguistic tells? Particular words, common errors, sentence patterns, etc.? Qwyrxian (talk) 07:10, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I am off out for my blood test soon but will try to compile something later if I can concentrate. The stringing of question marks is typical, for sure, but mostly it is gut feeling from having seen so much from them in the past. - Sitush (talk) 07:19, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikiproject Articles for creation Needs You!

WikiProject Articles for creation Backlog Elimination Drive

WikiProject AFC is holding a one month long Backlog Elimination Drive!
The goal of this drive is to eliminate the backlog of unreviewed articles. The drive is running from March 1st, 2013 – March 31st, 2013.

Awards will be given out for all reviewers participating in the drive in the form of barnstars at the end of the drive.
There is a backlog of over 2000 articles, so start reviewing articles! Visit the drive's page and help out!

Delivered by User:EdwardsBot on behalf of Wikiproject Articles for Creation at 13:39, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Radical Changes

Please dont hack and slash the memon article until you discuss the changes with people who have worked on the article. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 01:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC))

Not required in situations such as this. The article violated WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:RS and so on - this is a well-known issue with caste articles and while I may have got it wrong in this instance, the chances are unlikely and BLP pretty much trumps your revert until youchallenge it. - Sitush (talk) 01:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Restoration of deleted edits

Sitush Ji, You have removed an inline source calling it dubious. These are not dubious entries. The sources were duly mentioned (given in Roman Urdu along with English translation) which you have deleted too. Moreover, this specific information was long ago gathered by Zia Fatehabadi’s main biographers, a) Malik Ram and b) Zarina Sani, and is part of their respective works.

a) “Is kii tahqeeq to nahin ho sakii ki yeh khaandaan fatehabad mien kab se aabaad hai, lekin mojoodah muamlaat kii ru se yeh muthaqaq hai ki 1773 mein unke moras-e-aalii lala badal das ke pote llala tansukh rai vahaan maujood the.” (The search as to when this family had come to settle in Fatehabad could not be conducted but on the basis of available information it is evident that Lala Tansukh Rai, grandson of Lala Badal Das, lived there.) - Zia Fatehabadi Shakhs aur Shair (July 1977) by Malik Ram page.9

b) “zia fatehabadi, soni (khatri) khaandaan se ta-aluq rakhte hain… haridwaar ke panditon ke paas jo record mahfooz hai us se pata chaltaa hai ki lala badal das soni ka pota lala tansukh rai 1773 mein fatehabad se haridwaar teerathyatraa kii gharaz se aayaa.” (Zia Fatehabadi belongs to Soni (Khatri) family.. it becomes known from the records with pundits of Haridwar that Lala Tansukh Rai Soni, grandson of Lala Badal Das Soni had come from Fatehabad to Haridwar in 1773 on a pilgrimage trip.”) - Booda Darakhat (1979) by Zarina Sani page.14

Therefore, you are requested to restore the edits that you deleted on 01/03/2013. Thanks.

By the way, whereas a full Wikipage on Dora Annie Dickens, the infant daughter of Charles Dickens who lived for a year or so, deemed notable, is acceptable, but not the page on Zarina Sani, the reputed author and poetess, which was deleted on the ground that she lacked notability. You have found mention of Soni Hindu Kapila Gotra Kshatriya in the case of Zia Fatehabadi objectionable but mention of Nambudari parentage as also of gotram and sutram in the case of Adi Shankara, and of Hindu family and Shakya clan in the case of Gautama Buddha, or mention of Saljuq Turk in the case of Ghalib not objectionable. The Indian Govt. seeks info. about caste and religion from its citizens then why this self-imposed restriction via so-called Sanskritisation. Don’t you find this restriction unwarranted? The relied upon page nowhere debars mention or inclusion of such info in the Wikipages created. Regards. Enjoy good health.Soni Ruchi (talk) 07:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Sitush. You have new messages at Talk:Iyengar#Common_Origins_Section.
Message added Hari7478 (talk) 00:43, 2 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hello, Sitush. You have new messages at Talk:Iyengar#Common_Origins_Section.
Message added Hari7478 (talk) 15:52, 3 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Use of GENI site as a citation

Hi Sitush, while this question may sound pointless, wanted to get your opinion on whether the following GENI website may be used as a citation in the KP & Kaul articles. While it uses content from the Kashmiri news network, it provides an interesting insight into how the various Kashmiri Pandit names originated. -Ambar (talk) 20:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

The url you give is a redlink - have you mistyped it? - Sitush (talk) 20:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

ANI

FYI. --regentspark (comment) 17:24, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Opinion sought

I am eager to have your or your project's opinion about the verification of dates (already arrived/now arrived at on the basis of available astronomical data) using Planetarium Software conducted by B.N.Narahari Achar, whereby he has confirmed the Mahabharata War date as 22/11/3067 BCE, date of Nirvana of Gautama Buddha as 27/3/1807 BCE, period of Mauraya rule as 1535-1219 BCE, date of birth of Adi Shankara as 5/4/509 BCE etc. This has reference to his essay - Some Fixed points in the chronology of Bharata included in the book - Astronomical Dating of Events and Select Vignettes (http://indicethes.org/PROC14.PS.pdf). Thanks.Aditya soni (talk) 05:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I am sceptical but for reasons that are difficult to explain and may well be influenced by my preconceptions and also my lack of understanding of astronomy. I am aware that astrology - a different thing - can play quite a significant but generally-considered "hocus pocus" role in matters such as this. I think that your best bet, assuming that you have attempted discussion on the talk pages of relevant articles, would be to refer it to WP:RSN. I am sorry that I cannot really offer any more assistance than this. - Sitush (talk) 02:26, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Sudhirkbhargava recently tried to use a conference report as a reference for earlier dates of Rig Veda. Among the various studies summarized in this report was a study on astronomical dating based on Planetarium Software. Discussions about the report (not the study individually) took place at my talk page, Talk:Ayurveda and at RSN. Please note the WP:Redflag concerns raised at every forum. Fringe theory concerns will also be raised if a study tries to date the Maurya empire to 1500 BCE when they so obviously had contacts with the Greeks. I wouldn't recommend using B.N.Narahari Achar's essay as a reference for earlier dates of anything. It can of course be taken up at RSN. Correct Knowledge^«৳alk» 22:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) You can not add these speculated dates, howsoever precisely they are calculated with help of any world's-best software, as they are certainly a point of debate and need opinions from other experts. Have these dates been accepted, not globally, but at least on a bit wider scale worth of noting? For eg. Shivaji's DOB is accepted as 19th Feb by various experts and the Government and is thus observed also. Even if they are accepted, you may add these dates, not representing them as a fact, but merely speculation. That too, you may add only if they are backed by some expert of the field, other than the main proposer. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 04:42, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, CK and D, for commenting. It is slightly off my normal subject area but I have doubts about much of this type of stuff & especially in the Wikipedia context. I am pleased to see at least two other people recognise the latter as a concern. - Sitush (talk) 17:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality Tags

Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed maintenance templates from Wikipedia. When removing maintenance templates, please be sure to either resolve the problem that the template refers to, or give a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry, as your removal of this template has been reverted. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Please do not remove the tags on the Lohara dynasty page and use the talk page! Lets build a better Wikipedia together! (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:13, 6 March 2013 (UTC))

Don;'t be so bloody stupid. You have failed to explain what the alleged POV is and are being point-y. Just stop it or engage in proper discussion. - Sitush (talk) 23:15, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Please go back to discussion board and re put up the neutrality tags. Thank you for helping me make wikipedia a better place! :) I look forward to our discussion. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC))

I won't (as I've already told you) and I don't look forward to the discussion, sorry. I am expecting another saga demonstrating a poor understanding of our policies etc. - Sitush (talk) 23:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading: Koli

Hi, sitush,

Please let me know, why my comment has been removed from "koli people". I have given a reference also. If I am wrong then please let me know the actual koli people from MUMBAI. I want to know this as my wife is also koli and her village is colaba mumbai. Actually I have been searching for Mumbai koli people book but i hardly find any document for same.

-Thanks prashant — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prshntsathe (talk • contribs) 10:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, there have been various changes at Koli people recently. I presume that you are referring to this information. The second paragraph of that contribution has been removed on numerous occasions recently and I am not sure if all the additions of it were made by you. That paragraph is complete trivia and has no place in an encyclopedia; worse, it is a copyright violaton. As for the first paragraph of your contribution, well., I can see nothing in the source that supports the statement that most Mumbai Kolis are East Indians and the source is not great even if I could see such a thing. - Sitush (talk) 17:30, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Re: Lowkeyvoice

[Wearily.] Just leave him be. He'll make whatever decision he makes; he's clearly not going to listen to you, and I've run out of words with which to explain, so I really don't think there's much to do but wait. I know I don't have any right to be weary of this whole situation, considering that you've been in the thick of it the entire time, but still; blocking people like that makes me feel tired. :P If he goes back to his old tricks when the block expires, then the next stop is indef (maybe routed through AN(I), I dunno), but I'm still blindly optimistic that maybe he'll just agree to leave you alone altogether. Writ Keeper (t + c) 20:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I've already decided to ignore him, thanks. However, the problem does not just relate to me - there is all the Saffron Terror stuff, for example, and I've had no involvement in that at all. Can a vanished user return as an IP? - Sitush (talk) 21:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Technically not. Vanishing = Never returning. But, let's wait 3 days and see if he really vanishes. --regentspark (comment) 21:30, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

If he's vanishing, fine. If he comes back a changed person, also fine. If he comes back and is disruptive again...I'll suck it up and compile the diffs for ANI. Thank you for the temporary reprieve, Writ Keeper. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Category:Kallar

Hi,I am pointing to the same reference material that was used by Wikipedia.Using it as a reference partially will portray a group of people in a negative connotation and you cannot argue that i am using a weak reference from British raj. That reference was in Wikipedia for more than a year and i got the necessary approval for using that.In fact one of your moderators advised me to use that. Please refer my talk page if you need more information. Thanks -- preceding — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arjunnattar (talk • contribs) 19:04, 8 March 2013 UTC template, header added, minor copyedit --Tito Dutta (contact) 19:19, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Tito. Arjunnattar is now aware that this issue is being dealt with at Talk:Kallar (caste). - Sitush (talk) 19:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

List of Nadars

Hi, this is to let you know that the page List of Nadars was..re-edited by you,and had deleted out many reliable links and features..This is to tell you that it was briefely edited by me and my team...the information was properly reliable and if you are not pleased with it , you can do extensive research in the internet and any further deletion would lead to further action by Wikipedia. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr n Mrs (talk • contribs) 14:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Please see your talk page and that of the article. Please do not meatpuppet. And please do not violate WP:BLP. Finally, the burden is on you to provide evidence of verifiability, not me. - Sitush (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Template:Rp

You reverted a change that I made earlier today on the Jiddu Krishnamurti page in which I used the Template:Rp to tidy up the citations. As far as I'm aware the template:Rp is still current and the reasons for using it remain valid, i.e. "It is a solution for the problem of an article with a source that must be cited many, many times, at numerous different pages". What is your justification for reverting my edit? Vacarme (talk) 22:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS and WP:CITEVAR, although I did not specifically refer to those in my comment on the article talk page. Jiddu Krishnamurti has been a problematic article since a group of editors based at New York Public Library became involved with it many months ago - you'll spot their work in the 65.88.88.* IP range but they refused to register accounts. There was much discussion on their talk pages and in the (now archived) article talk threads. They went so far as to threaten the likes of myself and Sunray with appeals to WP:ANI, Jimbo etc but never followed through. The article around that time was among the largest on Wikipedia and it was turning into a full-blown academic paper. However, WP is an encyclopedia, not an academic journal.

The article is still a mess of trivia etc but better than it was. Frankly, it is of peripheral interest to me but one definite improvement among your recent contributions has been the splitting of footnotes from citations. I slightly amended the format of that because {{efn}} has come around and is (I am told by people with far more Featured Article experience) to be preferred. The JK article could and should be featured but it needs a fair amount of work first. You are welcome to continue towards that goal. - Sitush (talk) 00:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. Given that article needs a lot of work (I agree) I'm surprised that 'correcting' a variation in citation method deserved any attention especially when the References are so untidy and the change is, or rather was, for the better. I don't know if a consensus was previously reached on the matter but I doubt it - in my experience most people either don't know that there are alternative methods or if they do, they don't care. I'm aware of the policies you cite, but I've been around long enough to know that there are are times when using good editorial judgement and common-sense overrule other considerations. Vacarme (talk) 07:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

From the very start of CITEVAR: Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change. If the article you are editing is already using a particular citation style, you should follow it; if you believe it is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page. It was using a particular style and had been for a long time. There may have been the odd citation that did not conform but you efforts, well-intentioned although they were, introduced dozens of them. FWIW, I like {{r}} but I rarely get to use it. The NYPL people were well aware of the various styles available to them. - Sitush (talk) 17:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

The CITEVAR text to which you refer is actually about (not) varying between different formatting styles such as APA style, ASA style, MLA style, The Chicago Manual of Style, Author-date referencing. So, in the case of the said article, if the style is 'author/date/title/publisher' don't change it to 'title/author/publisher/date', and so on. This is completely different to introducing an (approved) mechanism for dealing with repeated or multiple citations to reduce clutter etc. Also, your pedantic insistence on not changing the "established citation style" doesn't really make sense when there are so many inconsistencies in the references as currently shown. If you prefer {{r}} it's a shame you didn't help me to apply it.Vacarme (talk) 07:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Woah-ho: don't you dare start having a go at me, accusing me of pedantry. Wrong, and it is why I also referred you to WP:CONSENSUS (which does not need to be recorded as it can be de facto). Now let's leave it alone, shall we? I am not in the mood to deal with it here, so find some suitable noticeboard if you wish to pursue this. - Sitush (talk) 07:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics#Need a review of edits by a possible problem editor

Care to touch this one with a ten-foot pole? :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

They're mostly removing unsourced content without providing an explanation. Or, least, that is what they did on the articles that had not already been reverted by Dougweller. - Sitush (talk) 17:19, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Testing

Namaste, Sitush. You have received at least one new message at the Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics. Please continue the discussion there!
Message added by Tito Dutta (contact) 03:29, 12 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Talkback}} template.

Very nice, although I'm not sure how much use it would get. In view of your "No new message there!" note perhaps you could set a trend by designing a template that says "You have no new messages at the Noticeboard for India-related topics"! - Sitush (talk) 17:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram closed

An arbitration case regarding Doncram has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

1. Doncram is placed under a general probation indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions if, despite being warned, Doncram repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum. These sanctions may include blocks, page or topic bans, instructions to refrain from a particular behavior, or any other sanction that the administrator deems appropriate. Sanctions imposed under this remedy may be appealed as if they were discretionary sanctions. Doncram may not appeal this restriction for one year and is limited to an appeal once every six months thereafter.
2. Doncram is indefinitely restricted from creating new pages, except for redirects, in article space. He may create new content pages in his user space, at Articles for Creation, in a sandbox area within a WikiProject's area, or in similar areas outside of article space. Such pages may only be moved to article space by other users after review. This restriction may be appealed to the Committee after one year.
3. For edit warring with Doncram, SarekOfVulcan is strongly admonished to behave with the level of professionalism expected of an administrator.
4. SarekOfVulcan and Doncram are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with each other (subject to the ordinary exceptions).
5. The question of how substantive the content of a stub must be before it can legitimately be introduced to the mainspace as a stand-alone article cannot be decided by the Arbitration Committee. If the project is to avoid the stub guideline becoming a recurring problem in the future, we suggest to the community that this question may need to be decided through a deliberate attempt at conducting focussed, structured discussions in the usual way.

For the Arbitration Committee, (X! · talk)  · @277  ·  05:38, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Discuss this

Patel Page

Hey so what makes someone able to link a caste to a surname on the Patel page? A last name does not determine caste correct? The page is about a caste and the other page is about a surname(not a caste).

I remember you taught me that Memon People page the people could not be listed because the last name is not caste unless there is proof. There is no proof that the people listed as Patel on the list are of the caste. This isnt an attack. Just trying to gain better insight what you logic is about this. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 22:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

As far as I could see, both the list and the article concern the surname. As far as I can see, neither mention caste. A last name cannot be used as verification of a specific person's caste - there are, for example, plenty of people called Nair who are unrelated to the caste of that name. I think that you are comparing apples to oranges here.

I'm a bit busy doing some research relating to another Wikipedia issue but I'll get back to you concerning your earlier message in the section above. - Sitush (talk) 23:16, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

[] --> "This article lists people of the surname Patel, an Indian surname not necessarily tied to a specific caste or class."

I think the list might actually be surnames and the article is related to castes. Let me know what you think. If this stands up, can I list all the people with the last name Memon on one page and link it similar to Patel.(Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:25, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

Don't start this palaver again, please. Show me the sentence in Patel that mentions the word "caste". You are way off-course and you are not going to game the system to suit your agenda at Memon people that led to a block. - Sitush (talk) 23:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I am being sincere. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

It would be easier for me to open tor portals and annoy the crap out of you. Seriously, this is a peace offering and I mean it. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

(edit conflict) Fine, if you are being sincere, but you are also wrong and are wrong in ways similar to those that caused issues previously. Show me that sentence containing mention of a specific caste or even the word "caste", please.

If you want to open tor portals and annoy the crap out of me then feel free. You will lose eventually, and perhaps much sooner than you think. So I suggest you do not make threats like that, even disguised as comments. - Sitush (talk) 23:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I am trying to work with you. You have seniority and I am trying to take your understanding of the system. I do not view as an enemy but as a filter for how things work. Teach me. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

Any chance that you can think before you write? You are drifting into another irritating recent habit of posting multiple messages and changes to messages in quick succession. It is a complete nightmare for others to deal with. And, FWIW, I am not senior to you. - Sitush (talk) 23:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

[] <--This is what I think we are. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

I do not do YouTube, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 23:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay. It is Steve Jobs explaining how a team works. Anyway- It is on the Patel list page the caste and surname quote. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

Huh? You mean the "This article lists people of the surname Patel, an Indian surname not necessarily tied to a specific caste or class." that you quoted earlier. How the heck does that sentence mean that the list concerns people of a specific caste? It actually says the opposite - "not necessarily" - and names no caste. - Sitush (talk) 23:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

So lists of surnames can be compiled as long as they are not castes because they are self evident? (Lowkeyvision (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

If a notable person has the surname Lowkeyvision and an article about them on Wikipedia, and if there are other people with the same circumstances, then in theory they can be grouped as a List of Lowkeyvisions. See Sharma for another example of people sharing the same surname being listed, and note that it does not say they are all (or even mostly) of X caste or Y religion or Z sexual orientation, etc. - Sitush (talk) 00:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. Alright, my interests are obviously in the Memon People page because I wish to build it. I have a couple more questions for you.

1) What is the best way to confirm the ancestry of a caste of people. For example, how would you recommend I go about finding a list of people who are of Memon ancestry compiled by a third party.

2) I can get records from WMO and they keep records of who was a Memon or not. However, as you stated consensus is against "self published" resources. To this A) if WMO had a page, can their self published statistics go on that page? B) If "self published" data is not valid, then what makes things like the US census poll believable or statistics by human rights organizations. Aren't they self-published? Don't they also have conflict of interest?

Thank you for the earlier clarification. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC))

I am not trying to solve this thing by tackling the root of this. I don't want to hold a grudge. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 00:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC))

Re: (1), I have no idea other than read WP:RS and take particular note of WP:BLP. I'd much rather such lists did not exist at all here because there is only rarely a connection between a person's caste and the reason for their notability. Regarding [2], the WMO is not independent of the Memon people, whereas the US Census Bureau is independent of them and of the > 99 per cent of the US population who do not work for it. In any event, the WMO census has been shown to be unreliable because you couldn't answer the questions posed of it, and the fact that they put their name to such a load of dodgy data has to raise questions about the reliability of anything they say. Just do not use them, except for statements about their own organisation's structure/history etc (not the Memon people's structure/history). - Sitush (talk) 01:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The majority of Memons are not part of WMO. The mechanism of the census is something I do not know the internal mechanisms of because I am not part of the organization. I am taking this as a challenge to trace/do something that hasn't been done before the Memon People. I look forward to working with you. How does one document court cases? []

"It is easy enough to be friendly to one's friends. But to befriend the one who regards himself as your enemy is the quintessence of true religion. " - Ghandi. Do you think that is true? . (Lowkeyvision (talk) 03:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC))

I do not know for what you would intend to use that court ruling. However, it appears to be a primary source and such rulings are not usually considered acceptable. If you can find a secondary source that discusses it, preferably in context with any related rulings before and since, then you may be on to a winner. Personally, I avoid even those unless there are literally dozens of the things and they are broadly in agreement: lawyers, after all, generally make a good living out of offering different interpretations of what, to the layman, appears to be a simple case (sic) of the written word. You could try asking at the talk page for our Law Project, however.

You really do not want to know what I think about Gandhi or religion: suffice to say that I am not of a religious inclination. In the Wikipedia context, we are all supposed at least to "rub along together" (a British phrase that may not carry well around the world, hence the quote marks) but there are exceptions. - Sitush (talk) 07:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

A man that can free a billion people from slavery without a sword or a gun is worth merit to study. Humanism is a religion to some. Wikipedia:Randy in Boise are the only people truly worthy of rebuke and your energy would be better spent correcting. ;) Now I gotta start making the list. Thank you for the information. (Lowkeyvision (talk))

Hi there!

Would you be so kind as to take look at my talk? And perhaps, a comment will not be too much to ask of you? Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 08:24, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

BTW, it's about Rashmi Singh again. Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 08:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Cyriac Pullapilly

Fair enough as per his origin - I didn't read thoroughly enough before adding that category. Sorry. If we can't categorize him by citizenship, can we categorize his work better? Multiple "Historians of X" categories might apply, but that's still better than just "Historians." TheMightyQuill (talk) 10:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I've replaced it with Category:Historians of religion for now. That reflects the works that are noted. I need to dig through his journal papers etc at some point but it is low on my to-do list. The article was created primarily to assist with a dispute elsewhere regarding merits of various sources. - Sitush (talk) 19:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Ezhava

Sitush, what is the core issue there? That Ezhava and Tiyya (Thiyya) are the same? I might be able to find some contemporary references for you if I know what to look for. --regentspark (comment) 22:38, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. We have modern sources that say they are the same caste, in the sense that the community is identifiably one but known as Ezhava in one part of Kerala and as Tiyya in another. The different nomenclature has existed for a long time and modern sources acknowledge that the Tiyyas claim to be "ritually superior" to the Ezhava etc. On the other hand, people who are quite obviously from the Tiyya community have been turning up for many months trying to say that the two are distinct castes rather than one caste that uses different names in adjacent regions. This situation has been noticeable since the early part of 2012 when the Tiyya Mahasabha made a legal threat (see the article) & M. Knight Shyalamam's father made a claim that, based on a privately-commissioned study of his own DNA, the Tiyyas owe their origin to the ancient inhabitants of Kyrgyzstan. A lot of it appears to be tied to claims for preferential treatment under the OBC etc system. This latest fracas is not the first, nor has it been limited to the Ezhava article - there have been numerous attempts to create a separate article for Tiyyas, usually in quick succession. I have a strong suspicion that there is socking or meating going on, or at least some organised off-wiki canvassing, but ultimately I do not care. All I've ever asked for is reliable sources and they've never been able to provide anything other than Thurston, reports about Shyalaman and other stuff that emanates directly from the Tiyya community. Any info that you could point out to me would be useful, regardless of the "side" it takes. All I am here to do is reflect RS but it is becoming tedious having to rehash this thing every few months, especially when the "other side" cannot produce decent sources or, indeed, often a logical argument. Where is that man, Fowler?- Sitush (talk) 23:56, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow! I'll see what I can find but it looks like sources are not the issue. Now where did I put that DNA kit :) --regentspark (comment) 14:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, sources are not the issue except insofar as those making the claims have never produced any that comply with our policies etc. As my penultimate post says, this has been dragging on for years and they always come up with the same unacceptable stuff. There is an off-wiki campaign and if someone wanted to take a dim view of goings-on, the attempts to fork are in order to use WP as a soapbox for that campaign. - Sitush (talk) 14:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Here's what I got:

1.  Tiyyas are the largest subgroup of Hindus in North Kerala. Since the 1940s, they have been able to transcend their low-caste status through educational and occupational achievements, caste reform movements, and through participation in political movements ("SOMEHOW IT HAPPENED": Violence, Culpability, and the Hindu Nationalist Community, RUCHI CHATURVEDI, Cultural Anthropology , Vol. 26, No. 3 (AUGUST 2011), pp. 340-362)
2. Caste, Class and Economic Opportunity in Kerala: An Empirical Analysis, P. Sivanandan, Economic and Political Weekly , Vol. 14, No. 7/8,, Annual Number: Class and Caste in India (Feb., 1979), pp. 475-480, Published by: Economic and Political Weekly, Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4367366. Here, the author doesn't explicitly equate the two but uses them interchangeably.
3. The Relative Autonomy of Party Practices: A Counterfactual Analysis of Left Party Ascendancy in Kerala, India, 1934–1940, Manali Desai, American Journal of Sociology , Vol. 108, No. 3 (November 2002), pp. 616-657, Published by: The University of Chicago Press, Article DOI: 10.1086/367919, Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/367919. Here the author treats them as different castes with the Ezhavas as "intermediate" while the Tiyyas (or Tien) as "low-caste or polluting".

There is a book by Dilip Menon "Caste, nationalism, and communism in South India : Malabar, 1900-1948" published by Cambridge U Press that might have more info. I'll take a look when I get to the library. --regentspark (comment) 17:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. The interchangeable usage is common and does not advance the situation we have, although it does not negate using such sources for other points/info. I think Chaturvedi is treating the two as the same but I've not read it for over a year & will have to see if I still have the copy that was sent to me. I have JSTOR access & can look at Desai, who seems to be taking a contrary view in positioning the Tiyya below the Ezhava (whether as one caste or two, Tiyyas seem generally to be regarded as ritually superior etc) - so, this is worth a good read. I've never seen the Menon book before - £25 on Ebay but I think I've spent enough on books for Wikipedia already this month! - Sitush (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll email you a copy of Chaturvedi later today. I don't think she mentions Ezhavas at all but could be wrong. --regentspark (comment) 18:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Emailed! --regentspark (comment) 22:50, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

An FYI that I picked up Menon's book from the library. There is a lot of mention of Tiyyas but no mention at all of Ezhavas. I'm off on travels for a bit and won't be taking the book with me but will take a closer look when I get back. Hope things are well with you. --regentspark (comment) 15:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I've read Chaturvedi and, while it has some info that can be used in the article, it doesn't really help with the sticking point. I'll take a look at the JSTOR ones over the weekend. I am getting back up to speed but deliberately limiting my time here (I got a bit carried away last weekend and suffered for it). I hope that the travels are of the pleasant variety. - Sitush (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The P. Sivanandan source (E&PW at JSTOR) is not of much use. It refers to Thiyya in a heading of one table summarising data from the 1921 census but that is it. Every other mention is of the Ezhava. I don't think we can read the author's mind when it comes to citing in an article but, yes, they appear to be treating the two as being one. - Sitush (talk) 16:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Desai, I am not seeing a distinction. The article talks of the Tiyya of Malabar as being "low caste" and also refers to "low‐caste Ezhavas" in another district. As we already know, various sources have indicated that two names have a regional basis of usage. Since I am currently logged in at JSTOR, I'll dig around there yet again - I find it frustrating because their search mechanism keeps timing out and has done ever since I've had access. - Sitush (talk) 17:01, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Lets Restart

Alright dude, going through your history of editing you are not a bad guy. You are a bit of a ripper of articles but that is understandable with the amount of garbage that can be posted on a free encyclopedia. I think you hit a nerve when you edited the Memon People page because it meant a lot to me, but judging by your history of editing it wasn't personal.

I would like to apologize for over reacting. While you are a senior editor, you still need to read WP:BITE. There are some people on wikipedia who appear to have sinister intentions and I don't think you are one of them. I would still appreciate it if you would remove the muslims usurped the hindu ruler on the Loharna dynasty. It is the only edit I am requesting because it is somewhat offensive to those whose ancestry converted from Hinduism and hoping you will do it as gesture of goodwill. Thank you. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 21:58, 13 March 2013 (UTC))

Apology accepted. As for your request, well, we are not censored and if a reliably sourced something should offend one or another group of people then that is just unfortunate. I'm not sure that I understand why events of so long ago should cause such angst as you mention but "replaced" is very different from "usurped" and the latter is the term of choice in sources that I haven't even bothered to cite in the article, such as page 258 of Houtsma, M. Th (1987). E.J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936. BRILL. ISBN 9789004082656.. One that I have seen uses "deposed" instead but the point is that it was indeed an overthrow of a ruler. The article needs more sources and I know of some additional information that I've not got round to adding thus far, but it is not in need of censorship. - Sitush (talk) 19:21, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you think the word "usurped" has the same connotation as "replaced" or "overthrown"? What do you think the difference in these words is? Compare the following two sentences:

1)Bill Clinton replaced George Bush Senior as the president of the United States.

2)Bill Clinton usurped electoral power from George Bush Senior

I do not think information should be censored. I just think when something as sensitive as religion is involved the word usurped should not be used to describe things. Do you think the phrase "The Christians usurped the pagan Romans" would be something that would be tolerable to many?

Lowkeyvision (talk) 10:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC))

Clinton replaced Bush as president as a part of a legitimate legal process. Kota's position was usurped. They are not synonyms, as I said in my response above. - Sitush (talk) 13:42, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

What does usurped mean? What is the origin of the word? Do you think the origin and the meaning of the word is consistent with Wikipedia:RNPOV? Would you be okay with getting a third opinion on this? I am not a very experienced editor of Wikipedia and unfamiliar with how policy of WP:RNPOV apply. Also there are words with different meanings in different parts of the world and this may be one of those words. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Sheesh, Lowkeyvision, I've conflicted with you yet again. Please, please can you put your brain in gear before writing something. We all mess things up from time to time but you seem to do so consistently and it is a darn nuisance.

No, I do not agree with using the WP:3O process at this time. For someone so new to Wikipedia, you seem to know a lot about obscure policy areas etc but clearly you are not following due process here. You should have continued this thread at the article talk page, where it is likely others would see it and offer their opinions. People interested in the subject matter of the article are not necessarily interested in the goings-on here. - Sitush (talk) 15:01, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you please teach me how to go about discussing a change, specifically the process. It is something that is frustrating for new users because they dont know how go about helping imrpove the encyclopedia. At what point does one get WP:3O? At what point does one go to dispute resolution? While I am new to Wikipedia, I would like to think of myself as someone who is not an idiot ;) And I do not like to base things on fluff either because I need to have the ability to absorb large amounts of data and apply it correctly everyday. This includes ethical decisions I make everyday and medical ethics which are based on more Kantian ethics, which is where you will find most of my argument derived from. (Lowkeyvision (talk) 15:09, 16 March 2013 (UTC))

I have no idea what it is that you consider to be "fluff". Kantian ethics are irrelevant here; Wikipedia policies etc are relevant. See WP:TPG for some assistance with how talk pages are used.

I've copied the relevant parts of this conversation to Talk:Lohara dynasty and marked it as such - hope this helps. A content dispute that is between two contributors primarily because other contributors do not know that a discussion is continuing to develop does not merit 3O and any sensible person who participates in the provision of 3O would immediately note this. If the dispute does not draw input from other interested contributors within a reasonable time - say, a week - then recourse to WP:3O would be reasonable. I say a week because, for example, that is the amount of time allowed for contest of proposed deletions. - Sitush (talk) 15:18, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

In that case let us resume: What does usurped mean? What is the origin of the word? Do you think the origin and the meaning of the word is consistent with Wikipedia:RNPOV? Also, I do not see this as a dispute but a discussion.(Lowkeyvision (talk) 16:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC))

You seem not to understand that this is the wrong venue but, for what it is worth, I've provided you with a source that actually uses the word in this context and I've mentioned that on the article talk page. Go there, please, because I am not responding any further here. - Sitush (talk) 16:37, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

See talk page :) (Lowkeyvision (talk) 17:56, 16 March 2013 (UTC))

March 2013

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bal537 (talk • contribs) 02:21, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Moved this to the end. You have clearly not checked Talk:Chamar - please do. - Sitush (talk) 02:27, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Muhammad Ilyas Qadri

Considering that all sources for Muhammad Ilyas Qadri were self-published or otherwise violated WP:RS, do you think it's a candidate for WP:AfD? MezzoMezzo (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Probably not. He likely has some fanatical supporters and there may be difficulties in finding neutral sources but see, for example, this. Both the man and the organisation that he founded look likely to be notable. - Sitush (talk) 17:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Good call on all points. I'll see what I can do, then. MezzoMezzo (talk) 17:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Response to your comment on my talk page

I am editing using my phone and iPad. If you do not want to discuss, then that is your own problem, not mine. But I will not allow you to make disruptive edits to the Chamar page. bal537 21:01, 17 March 2013 (UTC) bal537 21:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bal537 (talk • contribs)

Banda Singh Bahadur

Sitush! How are you? I have a question: can you look at the recent edit dispute and figure out who's right? I'm semi-protecting the article from IP edits, which is where most of the caste-warring came from. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 14:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks! Drmies (talk) 17:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• It will take a while, I think, but I've left a note on the talk page. - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, it may now really kick off because I have removed 90% or so of the text - copyvio since 2006-ish. - Sitush (talk) 19:00, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• Seriously? OK, I'll have a look and delete what needs deleting. Thanks again. Drmies (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
• Ha, it was stubbed on 24 May 2006 already as a copyvio. The history got a lot shorter... Drmies (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Max Müller

Hi, thank you for your interest in the Müller article. Obviously I have no "ownership" rights over the article, so you may edit it as you think fit. Yes, I have had it on my watchlist for a long time. I added a lot of content years ago, but I must admit I've done very little since. Most of the recent edits have been by Vacarme. I have partial access to Jstor, but only what my institution subscribes to. As for the content of the article, the main body of the article was written in the early days of Wikipedia when footnotes were unrequired and rarely to be found. I gave the article footnotes some years ago when a very very clumsy and primitive system was in operation. I'm sure that the article could be greatly improved with more up to date secondary sources. Unfortunately the only people who are consistently interested in it are Hindu nationalists who have a very distorted and confused understanding of Müller's role in 19th century culture and tend to repeat misconceptions and outright fictions repeated on Hindutva websites. Paul B (talk) 17:53, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, dear. They've infiltrated this article also? I probably know less about the subject matter than you but I will keep an eye out. - Sitush (talk) 01:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	For spotting the copyvios in Banda Singh Bahadur: thanks. Drmies (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

No problem, & thanks. For some daft reason, I was not expecting to see a copyvio dating from 2006. I perhaps should know better by now! - Sitush (talk) 00:59, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

thanx

i thanks to you that you removed the word "brahman" from brief introduction of Banda Singh Bahadur .it was sure a wrong statement in that section and people who do not know much about BANDA SINGH BAHADUR could accept it as it is. but you forgot to remove the surname "bhardwaj".this is one of a leading surname of brahmins.it must remove immediately. in "early life " section there are diffrent theory of historians available.let the people read them and left the decision on themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paramsinghantaal (talk • contribs) 02:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

about BANDA SINGH BAHADUR article

hello sitush

i am requsting you again to remove the surname 'bhardwaj'joined with the BANDA SINGH BAHADUR,S early name 'laxman dass'.it was good that you removed the word 'brahman' but if you will not remove the 'bhardwaj' then it is useless,because bhardwaj is also a subcaste of brahmins.so to keep the brief introduction completely neutral.this change is required.i am not asking you to mention him rajput there,but to remove any cast identity till we not reach any final conclusion.

thanking you. --Paramsinghantaal (talk) 08:25, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ananyaprasad/Rashmi_Singh

Hi Sitush. Can you please check and let me know if the links which I have incorporated are good enough, Waiting Ananyaprasad (talk) 09:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ananyprasad, I really do think that you need to drop this for now. You have only recently asked for comments here and you got replies from me and from Mrt3366. At that point, little had changed from the version of the article that was deleted some months ago ... and since that request for review all you have done is add a link to an Amazon biography, which is never reliable as a source and in this instance was not even necessary because you already had a source for the statements. Amazon biographies are often created from content submitted by agents, PR people etc or even the author.

The idea here is not to amass more and more sources for the same thing, which can in fact lead to a situation known as citekill, but to demonstrate her notability. Neither you nor several experienced editors (including me) managed to do that at the time of the deletion discussion and since that situation still applies, well, if anything the copy that was put in your userspace (so that you could try to improve it) should probably be deleted now also. One day, she may be notable in the Wikipedia sense but that day is not now, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 17:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Nimbalkar

Hi Sitush,

Please let me know why are you removed lots of information of Nimbalkar.... As I've seen you removed on dated 16/10/2012, Nimbalkar's clan, symbol like details... Please do needful ASAP

Thanks & Regards, Vinod Nimbalkar... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.201.123.235 (talk) 09:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I almost always add an edit summary to give a brief rationale for any addition or deletion. (Very occasionally, I've clicked on a mousebutton sooner than I intended). If you look at the history for Nimbalkar, which you can see here, then hopefully you can work out why I did whatever it was. If you still have queries then the best thing to do would probably be to start a discussion at Talk:Nimbalkar because that page is likely to be seen by more people than this one. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 17:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

correction still awaited

hello sutish, the correction about removing surname 'bhardwaj' is still pending.please read my previous post.waiting for ur reply. thnx.--Paramsinghantaal (talk) 17:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I replied to your original request on the article talk page some hours ago. There is no need to keep asking here as I have that talk page watched. Please also note that Wikipedia is a worldwide encyclopedia - your day-time might be someone else's sleep-time - and also that contributors here have real lives outside of the project. You cannot usually expect to get a rapid response to queries etc, although often you will. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 17:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Professionalism is the need of time

You just refer to my Talk page and then discuss on commons page develop a consensus before making your self a judge and then a en forcing inspector deleting materials from 30 articles. Take time with professional attitude not an edit war engaging behavior. I well come the improvements you may propose to the map on commons if you are a linguist until then I am reverting your deletions because I inserted them first so you first prove map wrong then you can delete them in that case I will not object THANKS Maria0333 (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

It is very sad to see your persistent edit war engaging attitude. Waiting for valid argument on commons if you have some knowledge of Languages Maria0333 (talk) 19:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not warring: you were socking by editing while logged out, and at least some of those edits were removed by people other than me. For the last time, Commons is the wrong place for a discussion about synthesis, which is a concern for Wikipedia. What do I have to do to cause you to understand this? - Sitush (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

You appear to me an edit warrior. You lack valid argumentation on Wiki commons that may result in a self image destruction as a time pass Wiki editor rather then a genuine professional WP editor. Please dont next time edit my Talk page because I dont want to waste my time on non professionals. I would rather prefer professional linguists to comment on my my class of art map Maria0333 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:00, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

• So that a consolidated content discussion related to the Punjabi dialects map can occur in one place on English Wikipedia (instead of many different places), I have created the discussion page File talk:Map on Dialects Of Punjabi Language.jpg. Please continue discussion there. --Orlady (talk) 16:06, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Illegitimi non carborundum

It's hard to avoid that sort of situation. Hang in there! --Orlady (talk) 01:59, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Sikkaligar

Take a look, please. It's full of (entirely?) OR. My prod, based on its being OR was contested without comment. LadyofShalott 02:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Look at the accessdates in the Refs section. I am pretty sure that I've seen this article before and suspect that it is recreation of previously deleted content. The demographics stuff, including such sentences as "One family in Krishnapura Colony said they cook at most once a day" look like copyright violations: they are in the style of the People of India tripe published by the Anthropological Survey of India and based on British Raj amateur ethnography. I'll try to dig deeper later today but obviously I cannot see any prior versions, if they ever existed. - Sitush (talk) 07:09, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm... good point about the access dates. There are no deleted revisions for this article, only a couple deleted items of the active editor (neither of which would be prior versions of this), and there's no deletion log for Sikaligar. If it was on WP before, it's by some other name/spelling, and not by the account that's actively editing there. I'll have to do some deeper looking to see if I can identify a copyvio. LadyofShalott 00:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I cannot find an online copyvio at my end but it clearly is a copyvio of some sort of report. The KSWS website that is mentioned in the refs is currently awol and the relevant page is not at Wayback. KSWS = Karnataka Sikh Welfare Society and the specific page that is cited looks likely to be their joint project with the Nishkam Sikh Welfare Council.

There are some mentions of them in books but many of those sources are unreliable and those which are ok appear as snippet views in GBooks as shown in the UK. I've tried searching some of the alternate names but that is a long job. They appear likely to be formerly classified as a criminal tribe but I'd hesitate to add info of any type without rock-solid sources, especially since there is room for confusion with the Sikligars. Or, rather, so the article claims.

I really do not know what would be the best course to adopt here. I mean, the very fact that there is original research in the Names section makes reliable sourcing of all of this well-nigh impossible, other than by using the Nishkam website that may itself be referring to Sikligar. - Sitush (talk) 17:20, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I see mentions of them in a few things on Google books, but mentions in a list seem to be about all they are. I'll take it to AfD and let discussion decide it. LadyofShalott 19:16, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sikkaligar I left out the copyvio discussion. It looks like OR to me, and that's the route I took; I figured you can add in your thoughts about copyright violations. LadyofShalott 19:29, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

what is the matter with you.

you have not time to correct a single word,but have enough time to incorrect it again.dont test me bro. you have no right to support wrong facts while you are a admin of a responsible site.do your duty with responsibility or find some another job. Paramsinghantaal (talk) 13:35, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Sitush isn't an admin and what he chooses to spend his time on here isn't a job. Quite frankly I'm amazed at the rubbish like this he constantly has to put up with. Were it not for him the Indian/caste articles would be in even worse shape than they are now, so rather than coming here with your aggressive bullshit I think you ought to be thanking him. Malleus Fatuorum 14:19, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

"... would be in even worse shape than they are now" - damned by faint praise or what, Malleus? <g> It seems that my bullshitting "bro" has been blocked. And all the drama happened while I was doing my day job. Yes, I have one, temporarily: fiddling around with lathes and TIG welding kits is, um, an experience for someone more used to working with wood chisels etc. The nearby scrap metal yard is seeing more business of late. - Sitush (talk) 16:36, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I could have worded that better, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I was talking about the entire corpus of Indian/caste articles, not those those you've worked on. Malleus Fatuorum 17:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

so this was the reason.when you gave such responsibilities to some part timer ,these things happenes.i think my 'bro' should take rest at the night time .you not take sufficient rest,thats why you receive bullshits . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.205.56.150 (talk) 06:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Merging of Ramdasia page with Chamar page

What do you think of merging the Ramdasia page with the Chamar page? FYI my old I'd was bal537 but I am no longer using that id because someone was able to find my personal information using that Id. TimesGerman (talk) 02:52, 23 March 2013 (UTC) TimesGerman (talk) 02:53, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the Ramdasia article but will take a look. There is a process for proposing merges of articles and that needs to be followed in almost all cases - see WP:MERGE. - Sitush (talk) 06:52, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I've just redirected it to Chamar after clearing out the rubbish. Its sources were mirrors, Gyan, Global Vision etc as per my edit summaries here. I see that you added some of those sources, so hopefully you will now know to avoid them. See, for example, WP:MIRROR and User:Sitush/Common#Gyan. - Sitush (talk) 08:19, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Page on Hemu

I appreciate your efforts on page Hemu. You did a great job on 21st Sept. 2012 trimming the page from 30754 bytes to 25770 bytes spending 10-12 hours. Also you had asked for references at 11 places, which I had given promptly. I have always put information on any page which is well supported since 2008. Hemu was the first page I worked on and major contents are uploaded by me. Since your last overhauling of page I am only managing it, not adding much, as page still has about 26000 bytes after adding citations. However, frequent edits continue. Could I request you to allow edits by experienced editors only ? Thanking you once again for taking care of page. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 05:22, 23 March 2013 (UTC) this

The size of an article is not usually a matter for concern provided that it remains focussed on the subject matter, is reliably sourced and so on. There are occasions when it is desirable to fork articles but this situation is not one of those. The reason why I took things back in time was because there has been a considerable amount of edit warring going on and yet neither "side" has been discussing things. Some intervening contributions may have had merit but it is difficult to tell when so much poor behaviour has been apparent. As I said on your talk page and on that of one other recent contributor, it would be best to discuss any contentious issues at Talk:Hemu.

As far as limiting contributions to experienced editors is concerned, well, we have the semi-protection process available for that - see WP:RFPP - but I'm not convinced that it is needed yet. If the warring starts again any time soon then either that will become necessary and/or some people are going to find themselves blocked. I am not an administrator and cannot enforce either of those measures but I am perfectly capable of requesting someone to do so. I really do suggest that you discuss the issues. - Sitush (talk) 16:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Amitabh Bachchan controversies

Hello Satish,

I see that the links/description added by me has been removed again.

At the outset I would like to mention that the purpose of the content is not to malign but to bring forth to the general public facts which ascribe to the life of Mr. Bachchan. He is on record clarifying his position on the matter said and the information is a very important fact of his personal life.

I believe hiding this fact from the general public, ostensibly due to the information "not being new" is not in good taste. His alleged involvement in a matter as serious as instigation of riots deserves mention on his public profile and if subsequently exonerated, can also be mentioned.

The general public needs to be informed of all aspects pertaining to Mr Bachchans life. Not just those which sing paeans about his stature.

This is a user contributed and moderated community and needs the support of all members..

DeeptiKhosla (talk) 22:50, 23 March 2013 (UTC)DeeptiKhosla

Hi, you would need to raise this issue at Talk:Amitabh Bachchan. If you have not already seen our policy relating to biographies of living people then I suggest that you read that first - just click |here. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 23:46, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Re: Indic name

Namaste, Sitush. You have received at least one new message at the Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics. Please continue the discussion there!
Message added by Tito Dutta (contact) 23:21, 23 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Talkback}} template.

Re: Warangal

Hello, Sitush. You have new messages at C.Fred's talk page.
Message added 00:29, 25 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

ANI notice

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Caste sanctions enforcement request. Thank you. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:02, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

New article Thigala

As is often the case, WP:UNCAT is a treasure trove for shoddy India articles. I ran across yet another one where the presence of "Kshatriya" in the first sentence got my spidey-sense tingling. Turns out, surprise of surprises, that it's a caste of flower and vegetable gardeners who around 1900 suddenly started calling themselves Vannia Kula Kshatriya (I made a stub for that term too). Standing by for the backlash when the original editor notes the clearly cited fact that in 1994 the Karnatak gov't declared the Thigala a Backwards Class... MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	You're fighting the food fight in a thankless and hostile area of the project, and fighting it well. Keep up the good work. Basalisk inspect damage⁄berate 01:02, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Basalisk. I'm well-known for my accurate throwing of eggs during food fights ;) - Sitush (talk) 17:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Horsefield

I was confused by that edit too so I googled it and it seems to be sometimes with an e and sometimes not. this website says the e was lost when it was Latinized but then they also say he was a Scottish shoemaker :( I've emailed them pointing out the mistake. Richerman (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I've no idea what counts as the official register but I'd be happy with the edit if it was cited; as things stand, I'm just going off what is written elsewhere.

Scottish?! Are you sure that website would be a reliable source for, well, anything? Although perhaps he made horse-shoes? Or even hors-shoes, although in the French version of that it might mean spats or, at best, anything but slippers. - Sitush (talk) 18:33, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Well they are American (bless!). Scotland, England it's all the same to them. Still they do have a nice photo of Horsefieldii :) Richerman (talk) 18:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I just got a reply to my email thanking me for pointing out the error. Hopefully it will be corrected soon. Richerman (talk) 19:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

They may even link to our article. Was that a pig I just saw fly past my window? - Sitush (talk) 19:27, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

No, I think it was a flurry of piggin' snow! Richerman (talk) 19:30, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

We Brits and our weather chat! I gather that the inclement weather affects the more posh suburbs also. There is indeed a god ;) I've been helping a mate out of a tight spot with a contract for Salford Sewage Treatment Plant that has also been affected by undesirable weather since before Christmas. It is crpa work - boom-boom - but thankfully I am not on site. Having said which, I am working in his "factory" where temperatures have rarely got beyond 1 or 2 C during the last couple of weeks & I am wearing about seven layers (but no gloves, since that would offend 'elf and safety). The arthritis is playing merry hell and I think that being inside has actually been colder than outside for much of the time, at least in the case of his premises. One thing is for sure from this: he can claim not to operate a sweatshop. - Sitush (talk) 00:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I see that website has changed 'Scottish shoemaker' to 'Lancashire weaver' now - a small victory for our local hero! Incidentally, you asked if there was an official register of daffodils. Well, right at the end of the article you have a link to The RHS's International Daffodil Register & Classified List. That sounds about as official as it gets to me and they spell it without the e :-) Richerman (talk) 23:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

And I see that you have amended the article content accordingly. Thanks for that. - Sitush (talk) 17:11, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Yep, the owner of the company emailed me to say that after doing some research on google books he'd found we were right. He said he would change it in their printed catalogue too and he also pointed out that since the 1930's the typography for cultivars had changed so that it was now Narcissus 'Horsfieldii' rather than Narcissus horsfieldii - which would be the correct form for a wild plant. I'm surpised someone from the Botany wikiproject hadn't noticed that! I do wonder why the other one is Watkinsoni and not Watkinsonii though. I did take my camera down to Horsefield's grave today when I was walking the dog and took some more photos that show the table tomb. I'll put the best one onto commons today and see how it looks in the article. Richerman (talk) 17:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Punjab,_India#Drug_Problems

Hi. Sitush.. can you have a look at it. A user has added a new section to article Punjab,_India about Drug_Problems in Punjab. I am with an opinion that it should not be added into this article, but the other editor insists. Can you give your opinion. --Vigyani (talk) 07:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Will do. - Sitush (talk) 17:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Urgent Attention towards unprecedented bias

The article Jagannath Mishra contains unprecedented unsourced data that has been fabricated without authentic citations and amounts of excessive bias and blatant promotion of an individual by overexaltment.Kindly review the same and take bonafide measures to ensure this 'self publicised' work is backed by facts not 'promotional content' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.121.44 (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand

This edit...the source and page etc are all there?SH 21:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

No worries read the Gyan thing. 100% correct. SH 21:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Please carry on your edits. They are clearing up the article. I'm just reading through some more books at home. Thanks SH 21:08, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at

the history of Agamudayar...I always feel foolish when I do this. I reverted one set of edits, but didn't actually look at the article, thus missing the obviously massive, problematic content. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:00, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed almost as soon as you removed the additional 5k. I should have spotted it but, as your ES surmised, I only looked at the diff. - Sitush (talk) 05:05, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Sitush. You have new messages at Talk:Iyengar#Summarized_point_wise.
Message added Hari7478 (talk) 23:38, 30 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Information on "Iyengar community prior to Srivaishnavism". By the way, please include Thenkalai in your watchlist. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 23:38, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I will try to look later today (0230 here in the UK). I have seen some stuff going on but have hung back while trying to find sources relating to the Iyengar origins. Alas, there seems to be nothing, let alone something that is accessible to me. - Sitush (talk) 01:39, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Really?

This is how you want to do it? (Lowkeyvision (talk) 16:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC))

Yes, exactly per policy. This is not an ignore all rules situation. - Sitush (talk) 16:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Once again, if you think something lacks citation put citation needed signs. Give people a chance to give the information. You are just bullying due to your seniority and try to again abuse your chumminess with admins to intimidate other users (Lowkeyvision (talk) 16:08, 31 March 2013 (UTC))

Once again, please read WP:BURDEN, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:OR and, well, just about every other content policy I can think of. You've had an extended period of grace to fix your disruptive tendencies and there seems to be no improvement yet. There have been numerous lengthy talk page discussions involving numerous experienced contributors and there have been two flouncings-off by yourself. Going away for a few days to calm down or to read up on stuff etc is no bad thing, of course, but to return with exactly the same attitude is, well, disappointing to see. - Sitush (talk) 16:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Lowkeyvision, there is now a warning on your talk page for that personal attack - it is the only warning I will give you. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:15, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Ramdasia

Hi Sitush, I've reverted your edits because I think someone is trying to WP:GAME Wikipedia. I've been reading my books on Indian castes and Ramdasia, Ravidasia and Chamar are different. I'm going to add verifiable quotes, and not the gibberish someone added there. Watch this space. Thanks SH 16:21, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

OK but I wouldn't leave it too long because the content that I removed was hopeless - see the thread above. - Sitush (talk) 17:12, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sitush, can review the Ramdasia edits that were made. The source that was added by the editor is the old 100 year old books that are not reliable. TimesGerman (talk) 00:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Will do, although the sources that TimesGerman added were nothing like 100 y.o., so I am not sure what has gone on yet. - Sitush (talk) 00:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sitush, I am not understanding what the editor Sikh History is trying to say in his edits. His own source, which was published in1892' , shows that the Ramdasia are Chamars on page 307. The book can be viewed here: http://books.google.com/books?id=Th3Mu-_RwjQC&pg=PA307&dq=A+Glossary+Of+The+Tribes+and+Castes+of+The+Punjab+and+the+Frontier+Province+Ramdasia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zfNQUZSnEMy60QGm2IHwDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=A%20Glossary%20Of%20The%20Tribes%20and%20Castes%20of%20The%20Punjab%20and%20the%20Frontier%20Province%20Ramdasia&f=false TimesGerman (talk) 01:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I've added some more modern sources. Take a look at page 149 of Sewa Singh Kalsi's Thesis here. We can get rid of Rose if you wish, as I think we're gathering enough good source material. My adivice to TimesGerman is do not fall for the classic google research trap i.e.simply typing in Chamar and Ramdasia in google.. The picture that is emerging is, the original Ramdasia's were weavers and leather workers, and Chamars who have adopted weaving. Ramdasia's are definitely a distinct and seperate group from Chamars. Thanks SH 13:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

the picture that has emerged that Ramdasia are Sikh Chamars and you just refuse to acknowledge it because of your own agenda. TimesGerman (talk) 19:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm try and not be so rude. Second warning for Not WP:AGF. SH 20:32, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Take a look here. This article is really getting messed up. I haven't got time till tommorow. Cheers SH 15:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Narendra Modi

I have removed your edits from the page as it was obvious POV pushing (positive discrimination, until 2012 when it became politically expedient to do so) also it was not even in context. --sarvajna (talk) 06:55, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Your usual Hindutva bollocks, then. I reverted you: the content was originally added by someone else and did not put the issue into context. You know as well as I do that the Modi article is full of right-wing crap. - Sitush (talk) 06:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

No originally there was no such thing as India's system for achieving positive discrimination and there is no such mention in the source as well, the section is about his personal life not about what and how Modi tried to portray himself during election. Also stop using sentences like Your usual Hindutva bollocks, there was nothing even remotely related to Hindutva in my edit.Should I call your edits as anti-Hindutva bollocks ?--sarvajna (talk) 07:07, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Also this source has nothing to do with Modi, it says what BJP is planning.--sarvajna (talk) 07:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There is no need to source the positive discrimination of the Indian reservation system, although I will do if you insist by use of WP:SUMMARY. The OBC thing fits with his claimed family background. And if you want to call me anti-Hindutva then I wouldn't massively object - I'm not, but I'd rather be considered anti- anything that favours racist policies etc than pro- it. - Sitush (talk) 07:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course it relates to Modi, eg:

A Congress functionary from the central party office who had handled Gujarat for many years argued that Modi, who belongs to an OBC social segment — he is of the ‘teli’ or oil-miller caste — did not build his base in the state among fellow OBCs like his counterparts in Hindi heartland, Mulayam Singh Yadav and Lalu Prasad Yadav and Nitish Kumar, but he aligned himself with the upper-castes and the upper-class business circles in the state.

If the BJP does adopt the strategy, it will be an interesting turn-around in the party’s ideological stance. It was the boast of senior party leader LK Advani in the 1990s that he saved the Hindu society from division on the basis of the Mandal commission recommendations by taking up the ‘rath yatra’ from Somnath to Ayodhya. It seems that 20 years later, the BJP wants to redefine Hindutva in terms of Mandal rather than in terms of Ram mandir.

I realise that in this particular section it is a Congress claim but the article says more and the ToI article is pretty damn specific. - Sitush (talk) 07:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Well I thought we need to be neutral here not anti- or pro something, glad that accepted that you are not neutral also I am not sure what you are referring to when you say racist policies. Also the second source has much of what congress thinks and what that journalist thinks. Like I said before, the section is about Personal Life not what Modi did during elections --sarvajna (talk) 07:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

No, I didn't say that I was not neutral. I said that if you want to label me one way or the other then I'd prefer the other. You know perfectly well what I mean by racist policies. If you cannot see that this concerns his origins then you are as bad as Yogesh, who of course is/was another of the Hindutva fraternity (as agreed by various people at ANI in the past). If you want to move the content to some other place in the article then feel free to do so, but it stays because it is very relevant to the man. - Sitush (talk) 07:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually, thinking about it, you are right. "Fascist" would be perhaps a better term than "racist". - Sitush (talk) 07:39, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Look Sitush, I do not understand why you are doing it, first this is a biography. If you want what OBC or reservation system in India is all about then go and do it in that page, what is the need to write He has claimed that his family were designated as an Other Backward Class in India's system for achieving positive discrimination (emphasis mine). About the second sentence he had shunned identifying a familial position in the caste system until 2012 when it became politically expedient to do (emphasis mine) this sentence doesn't belong in the personal life section. Unlike you I do not have the bad habit of labeling someone, also I do not have any comments about another editor. Coming to Modi, spare yourself from the burden of judging this man (please do not consider us a White Man's burden), there are courts in India. I am also thinking that your personal opinion about Modi/BJP/RSS is influencing your edits --sarvajna (talk) 07:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Most people will not know what OBC means and the explanation is both valid and frequently used in our articles for that reason. You may be just touchy about the whole idea: I know that stuff to do with caste is a touchy subject for Hindutva ideology and perhaps for you also. As I said earlier, if you want to put the expediency bit somewhere else in the article then feel free to do so ... but it does stay in the article somewhere. I have absolutely no idea what you are getting at when you ask me not to "consider us a White Man's burden" - I know the Kipling quote but who is "us" and what is the "burden" you think I am trying to shoulder? I also have no idea what your mention of the Indian courts may relate to but I note that I am outside their jurisdiction. If you think I am displaying a tendency to inappropriate POV at Modi, BJP, RSS or wherever then take me to ANI. - Sitush (talk) 07:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

If people do not know what OBC means they will look into it we need not stuff everything in this article, the expediency bit doesn't belong to personal life section then I am removing it. Wikipedia is not a repository to have every information. It would not stay in the article just because you think it should. Coming to that burden thing, I misread your earlier comment so please disregard my white man's burden comment. I am striking it out. --sarvajna (talk) 08:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

He is a politician, so political tactics are relevant to the article. If you remove it then your inability to comprehend the obvious will be clear. Like I said, if you can think of a better place to put it then please do so. - Sitush (talk) 08:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

If there is any other section in the article where we can add that is 2012 Elections. Also do not threaten me that I will have problems, do whatever you want to. --sarvajna (talk) 08:40, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

What I said was "your inability to comprehend the obvious will be clear" - no threat. Now please reinstate the material in what ever section you feel is most appropriate. - Sitush (talk) 08:45, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I have started a sperate section on the talk page. --sarvajna (talk) 09:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)