Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1016

Propose immediate block of user:MarcusBritish

• Comment Why are we allowing these pithy personal attacks? He's full of commenting on the editor rather than the content. Accusing others of acting in bad faith? Really? I mean right here on this page? Why are we not blocking him right now? Let's nip this grandiloquence now.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 08:27, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Because the other grown ups here don't treat accusing someone of bad faith as cynically as you do, perhaps? Or because accusing someone of "bad faith" is not considered a personal attack, given that it has no mention at WP:NPA as being one. They also looked at the counter claims I posted, examined the OPs behaviour and raised concerns about his behaviour. Did you? No, I didn't think so. Just marched in here without taking the time to review the situation fully and made a call off the bat, it seems. And what do you mean "right here on this page?" son? There are no limits to free, honest speech on this page, are there? No policy that says you can't uphold an argument or defend a position at ANI? You didn't even comment on what "bad faith" behaviour I questioned, which means you did not consider the cause of the matter. What good is a block going to do anyone if you're sweeping the underlying problem under the mat with it and allowing that editor to resume his "bad faith"? You realise the underlying concerns I have with the OPs editing are so difficult to resolve, that I've been preparing evidence for ArbCom, incase I need Conduct resolution, right? — Marcus^(talk) 12:37, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Unless you are the editor's parent or step-parent, please do not call any other editor "son", as you did in the comment above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Excuse me? — Marcus^(talk) 01:43, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

And what do you mean "right here on this page?" son? The seventh sentence in the comment above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:38, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of where I used it, Ken. Perhaps you are unaware, as an American (I think?), that the use of "son" is a commonly used term in some parts of Britain. It is used between people, towards other males, regardless of age or relationship. Probably better that you refrain from getting triggered by a 3-letter word and attempt to blow it out of proportion, since that could be seen as objecting to a virtually cultural practise that you may not understand or appreciate, and that you have no place to criticise on wiki except from a personal pov, and I'm not interested in an op-ed on my regional vocabulary or dialect from a foreign speaker. To put it into context for you, however, consider the way Aussies say "mate" or you Americans still use "sir" a lot. Just a word, which depending on the situation can be informal, formal, disrespectful, respectful or endearing. Don't apply context where none belongs, it isn't worth your time and effort. Thanks muchly for your intelligent understanding! — Marcus^(talk) 03:41, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I am aware of its usage, Americans use "friend" in the same manner. Regardless, please don't continue to use that construction here, since in the absence of a informal familiar relationship in which the expression can be taken as just a bit of fun between friends, it implies superiority on your part. I have friends who I can call an "ass" or tell to "fuck off", because we are friends and we both know that there's continuing love and respect underneath the remark, but I don't walk up to strangers and tell them to "fuck off", for obvious reasons -- the same ones that should stop you from using "son", especially during a discussion in which your behavior is a prime element. Don't assume you have an informal friend-to-friend relationship with other editors, assume you have a formal peer-to-peer relationship until shown otherwise, and don't say anything you wouldn't say to a completely unknown stranger, your boss, the head of your school, or the mayor of your town. Simply put don't assume you have license to treat other editors as if they were your friends or inferiors, dude. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

The assumption is entirely on you, Ken. It neither implies friend nor foe. Only you inferred that. Regardless, it's your opinion not wiki policy here and I don't take orders from strangers online anymore than you should be issuing them. Would you have posted the same protest on Twitter or Reddit or YouTube? I say what I please. I didn't give offence, you took it. That makes it your problem, not mine. Haven't got time to listen to your stance on political correctness. If you find "son" hurtful or offensive you need a thicker skin. But since it was not even directed at you, I don't see why you're making it your business. It isn't even on-topic. Please move along, censorship in this day and age really annoys me. BTW I don't have a school, my schooling formally ended over 20 years ago... I have almost 40 years of experience in the usage of my local dialect, I don't need lecturing on its usage from someone who never lived here. I mean, who do you think you are to dictate etymology? And FYI, we do use it to strangers and acquaintances, "Alright, son!" is a very common greeting here, regardless of familiarity. Go figure. Just be glad I'm not from Manchester, they call each other "cock" (#20) there in the same manner as "mate" or "dear", and it's not the phallic term. American brain would go "boom" hearing that? ;) — Marcus^(talk) 04:51, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Having read the above discussion, that was pretty much the kind of answer I was expecting. It appears that you never do anything wrong, and anyone you see as an opponent can never do anything right -- and you consider anyone who disagrees with or criticizes you for the smallest thing to be an opponent. You appear to have no real sense of scale about disagreements, it's all or nothing at all with you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:13, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks for the amateur pyschological analysis, friend! Wasn't at all pretentious of you to trouble yourself with such a thoughtful gift. Ta-ta now! — Marcus^(talk) 14:10, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Can someone just close this and let us move on? Dicklyon (talk) 02:58, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

MB seems to be somebody who might benefit from a short, gentle reminder of WP:CIV. Simonm223 (talk) 13:26, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I also support the call for a block. This is totally absurd. No one should get away with this level of incivility.--WaltCip (talk) 14:32, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

So, just to be clear, Marcus, as far as you're concerned, you can just say whatever you like to anyone and if they "choose to take offence", that's their problem? That sounds remarkably like another editor, that folks might remember, who found he eventually had to change his account name in order to continue editing at Wikipedia. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:42, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

No, Martin, that's a Strawman argument. My reference was to the singular use of "son" and not the blanket statement you just misconstrued it into. If I was calling someone a "twat", it'd be to give offense. And FYI, I've never had or needed a fresh start. Isn't comparing people to someone of ill-repute much like posting a "you're a fascist/Nazi!" remark? Certainly has that tone to it. — Marcus^(talk) 18:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I see. It's just as if I had called you a Nazi? Please don't address me by first name. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:40, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

There's two things about people blessed with a sense of smug superiority: they're always right, and they're perfectly comfortable with that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:16, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Kenneth, your repeated commentary here is borderlining on harassment now. Suggest you do one, mate. I'm sure Arbcom don't need another Fram-like character causing aggro while they're still neck deep in shit with that case as it is. Besides the fact, all this talk of "superiority" is nonsense – you're projecting your own self worth and engaging in personal attacks. You're also grandstanding, in your vain attempt to appear influential over others here with non-factual rhetorical remarks. — Marcus^(talk) 18:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

If you think you are being harassed feel free to open a thread a separate ANI thread. Make sure that you can provide concrete examples of the harassment though. MarnetteD|Talk 20:45, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Proposal

(A) The indefinite block of Dicklyon is re-imposed for multiple incidents of violating his unblock condition, which was not to make controversial mass moves of articles. Dicklyon admits, in the discussion above, to making mass moves which have since been reverted, meaning that they were controversial.

(B) For multiple incidents of incivility, rudeness and personal attacks, some in this very discussion, MarcusBritish is blocked, the length of the block to be determined by the admin applying the sanction.

Addendum: Concerning Dicklyon, to be absolutely crystal clear about it, their unblock conditions were

Per consensus at ANI I have unblocked your account, under the provision that you avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves. Prodego talk 04:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:47, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I restored the comment above after it was deleted by @Dicklyon: with this edit. Dicklyon: if you do that again, you will immediately be reported to admins for inappropriately messing with another editor's comment in violation of WP:TPO. Everyone can see that my comment was added later as a clarificatiion, the time stamp shows it was 5 days after the proposal, and if anyone wanted to change their !votes because if it, they are free to do that. If you objected to it, you could have added a comment of your own pointing that out, or you could have gone to an admin and asked for relief. The one thing you could not do, is delete it - but then you don't appear to have any great regard for what you're not allowed to do, hence the proposal in the first place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:50, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

You did it again. I warned you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:36, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

The thread close on WP:AN said "User unblocked (with provision to avoid large scale, controversial actions) per consensus here." In the talk page comment, the "controversial" was meant to apply to both "actions" and "mass page moves"; or so it has been interpreted for the last four years as I contributed thousands of non-controversial moves. BMK's novel interpretation that all my moves are evidence of disregarding my unblock condition for the last four years and somehow getting away with it is ridiculous in the extreme. He has declined to say that any of my moves are controversial (other than vaguely, not saying which ones). He had it right in the proposal, "his unblock condition, which was not to make controversial mass moves of articles", but changed to the sillier interpretation when no controversial ones could be identified. Dicklyon (talk) 05:13, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I restored this comment twice already after BMK deleted it twice. Contrary to his "You did it again" claim above, I only deleted his inserted comment once; the other time I used hat/hab to delimit it, but did not delete it; he really wants people to see his half of the story! Dicklyon (talk) 05:58, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Your comments were deleted accidentally, as all I was trying to do was revert the inappropriate changes you made and restiore the status quo ante. If you hadn't fucked around with my comments, your comments would never have been touched.

As for your unblock conditions, they were not the closing statement in the ANI disucssion, they were what Prodego told you on your talk page. In a perfect world the closing statement and the notification on your talk page would be precisely the same, but it's not a perfect world, so how you were notified is what controls. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:30, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support Thank you BMK. There are ways to address the problematic behavior of anyone in any setting without creating a toxic work environment, which MarcusBritish needs to become aware of. I noted earlier his response to concerns about his toxic behavior was more toxic behavior. Recommend that the block duration be until he recognizes his rudeness and find ways to deal with disagreements without said rudeness. This is behavior that would not be accepted in any real-world work environment I've worked in and see no reason for it to be tolerated here. The Community has too long turned a blind eye to such behavior.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:44, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

  per Lugnuts change to TBAN on page moves. (on proposal A)-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 09:29, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

  Annnd-- per Dicklyon's apparent not "getting it" later on in this discussion back to an indefinite block, the sooner the better.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:05, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Switch to neutral on A per the many fine "oppose" arguments, but mainly per Incnis Mrsi .-- Dlohcierekim 15:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support per above.--WaltCip (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

• Elsewhere , WaltCip clarified that he was supporting (B), and had no opinion on (A). Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:50, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose A and B – rudeness is subjective and since Asperger's are known for their inability to handle social interaction, Dlohcierekim is not the best judge of character. Suggest C: take note of BMK's personal attacks and Dlohcierekim's willingness to turn a blind eye and thank his friend for such remarks. Seems some admins have a buddy system, yet transparent favouritism is not impartial which admins are required to be. — Marcus^(talk) 19:00, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

  Blocked 1 week for the Asperger comment. Discussion here may result in a longer block, at your discretion. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:11, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

  @MarcusBritish: Good grief! This is the very sort of toxicity I've been talking about. And I'm an excellent judge of character. My inability to respond with alacrity in all social settings (I'm getting better) and discomfort in social settings does not prevent me from recognizing rudeness. Seems I'm not the only person here who tends to emotional tone deafness and social awkwardness.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:51, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

  Further commentary Henceforth, I can no longer be considered neutral or |uninvolved regarding this user. I have never been so infuriated by a comment by another user before (started here in ~2006). I'm used to taking abuse from vandals and LTA's, and people angry over my admin actions. I take it as the price I pay for the job I chose. Never before has a member of the community stooped so low as this in responding to me. If you look through Marcus's removed talk page comments, you will see this has been an ongoing problem to which concerns he has responded with flippancy, personal attacks, and dismissal as irrelevant. Of course, I think he needs indeffed. (furious) But uninvolved members of the community may wish to consider a long-term solution to a long-term problem. -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 21:08, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

One more thing before I stop chewing on this. My asperger's impedes my ability to recognize non verbal social cues in face-to-face interactions. In so far as I can tell, I do fine in this sort of setting. And, I might add, am better at adhering to behavioral norms/etiquette than someone I shan't name.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 09:49, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support B, Neutral on A While there may be context I'm not aware of, I don't really see Dicklyon as having been all that disruptive. However I'll admit that I may be missing context and will not provide an opinion on whether they should be indeffed. However the behaviour shown by MarcusBritish here, up to and including since Asperger's are known for their inability to handle social interactions regarding another editor here is uncalled for. And what's more, when people have cautioned MarcusBritish that their comportment was insufficiently civil they doubled down. I think they need a time out to consider whether it's appropriate to insult an editor for commenting on your past insults to editors in a thread about the same. Simonm223 (talk) 19:04, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support both A and B: I will admit to a passing knowledge of military history; referring to large-scale, long-term strategic military plans as campaigns is not incorrect. Both persons here have been disruptive: one to the integrity of the project, one to the atmosphere of the project. On the basis of the actor realizing his error, however, I would like to request, if possible, that the blocking administrator be favorably disposed toward a standard offer for DickLyon in six months' time. Having said that, and noting that MarcusBritish has been blocked by SarekOfVulcan for a week, I cannot see MarcusBritish's particular manner of discussion as being rather helpful; his comportment, even in this very discussion, if I may argue, is and has been wholly antithetical to a collegial atmosphere. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 19:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I am also willing to support an indefinite moratorium on page movement for Dicklyon, as suggested below, in lieu of an indefinite block. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 14:48, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Support for lesser ban withdrawn, as a consequence of Dicklyon's statement in the next section. It is not his prerogative to declare my vote null and void. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 19:29, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
      • I've been convinced by the eloquent arguments. Neutral on Proposal A, so long as Dicklyon knows that, here on out, mass page moves will count against him (just as a warning). Sorry, Dicklyon: I've been unfair to you, and, for that, I apologize; the offending statement above has been struck. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if we could move forward in a collaborative manner, and stop foolish proposals like removing capitalization from the office of Vice President of the United States. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 19:02, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
        • Thanks! Nobody's ever called me eloquent before – oh, or maybe that wasn't about me. And I hope you know I opposed that downcasing at Talk:Vice President of the United States#Requested move 6 August 2019. Dicklyon (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support B, Neutral on A. As per Simonm223. I've rarely seen a more sarcastic, demeaning and provocative tone than the one adopted by MarcusBritish here. It looks like it's just one big game to him. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I would also support Lugnuts proposal on A making a Tban on page moves. Considering the context available, that seems reasonable. And with regard to B, I'm leaning toward supporting an indef based on comportment here and evidence of past blocks.Simonm223 (talk) 13:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support B as in, an indefinite block, not just a week. I told arbcom when they unblocked him that they were making a mistake. For those that don't know, the last indef block was for, among other things, insulting the ethnicity of a user he was in conflict with. And he was more than willing to take it off wiki, including email harassment, a campaign on youtube, and a death threat against me personally. He's not someone we should have here. I've had occasional issues with Dicklyon as well but he's never tried to incite people to kill me. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:33, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Marcus is rather upset about my above remarks, which he claims are lies. The only part of it that is not 100% certain is whether he was in fact the person running the youtube channel in question. There is no doubt about the rest of it. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:32, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support A & B; both parties are clearly way over the line at which even the loosest assumption of good faith can possibly apply. Neither of them are new users and they're both well aware that what they're doing is both unacceptable and disruptive; if they're not willing to abide by our policies, they're not welcome here. Both cases are, for different reasons, absolutely textbook cases of situations where "indefinite not infinite" should apply, as in "unless and until you undertake to follow our rules regardless of whether or not you agree with them, we don't want you here". ‑ Iridescent 20:51, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support both Proposal A for violation of unblock conditions. Proposal B for all the ups and downs of how WP:CIVILITY has been handled over the years it is still one of the Wikipedia:Five pillars and MB's actions indicate that there is no intention of understanding that. MarnetteD|Talk 20:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support both per MarnetteD. PhilKnight (talk) 21:12, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Notice: Per WP:CBAN, Editors who are . . . indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community". —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:12, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support B - Dunno what Dicklyons unblock conditions are so shan't !vote on that, Reading Marcus's replies here I get the distinct impression they simply don't care about the way they talk to people or our policies here, IMHO they should never have been unblocked. –Davey2010^Talk 21:19, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose A, Support B. Paul August ☎ 00:25, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
• Neutral on A, Support B. The sort of aggressive hostility displayed by MarcusBritish shouldn't have any place here. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 03:16, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
• Weak support A, Support B Maybe Dicklyon could have a topic-ban on page moves instead of an indef? I've not paid too much attention to their edits, so they may have already ran out of WP:ROPE. For MarcusBritish, support an indef, seeing as they've already been indef'd once, per their blocklog for personal attacks/harrasment, and their ongoing WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in this thread and their talkpage post the 1-week block. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:07, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
• Neutral on A, Support Indefinite on B, the latter just for their comments here. --Calton | Talk 10:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support B, Opppose A as I agree with the suggestion above that a topic ban is the more reasonable next step., DGG ( talk ) 17:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

• I am immediately blocking MarcusBritish indefinitely per this thread, but discussion on part A needs to continue to reach consensus. Courcelles (talk) 19:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

• Neutral on A, Support B - I was already taken aback by Marcus' commentary earlier, but his Asperger's comment is well over the line. I'm indifferent on whether Dicklyon gets a block or a topic ban for the violation of his unblock, but something should be done there as well. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:11, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Given Dicklyon's repeated commentary below, we either have a case of WP:IDHT or he really doesn't get that "mass page moves" are inherently controversial, which brings us into WP:CIR territory. Either way, I now Support A, indef block until he understands what his restrictions mean, and a flat TBAN on mass moves in addition to his other unblock conditions. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:53, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Right, I really don't get that. If mass page moves are inherently controversial, then we'll need a strategy to split up the work such that nobody's part is big enough to be called "mass". How are we going to get a bunch of editors signed up to such jobs under such condition? Are you suggesting that it's better to just not fix problems that are widespread, when fixing them has been shown to be uncontroversial? Or are you like some of these other AN/I drama mongers and just don't like it when someone defends themself here? If I ask what's wrong with my work, and people say nothing, just too much of it, and I ask again, then I'm so disruptive I have to be indeffed. That's a fine how-do-you-do. Dicklyon (talk) 00:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support A (B already has consensus, but I support it, too, FWIW). The discussion above documents at least three examples of Dicklyon performing mass page moves (ranging from scores of pages to over a thousand) on the basis of MOS guidelines that were later reverted. This is clear, repeated violation of his unblock conditions over a lengthy period. There is also evidence above that he was edit-warring on the MOS in support of his position while making one of those controversial mass-moves. The attempted handwaving doesn't really help; "engaged in related discussions repeatedly reaffirming that conforming to that style provision was not controversial" looks good but when you think about it, the only thing it can mean is, "Lots of people objected and I repeatedly told them it's not controversial." In other words, it was controversial, just not in Dicklyon's mind. We don't need this. GoldenRing (talk) 09:30, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Ahhh, thanks for providing more detail, GR. Support an indef on this. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 11:38, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support A. If anything, Dick has gotten more aggressive with his page moves since this discussion started. Calidum 18:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Since he asked, here is the complete list of moves he's made . By my estimate, he's moved 199 articles that include the word "campaign" in their title in recent weeks, which was the locus of this dispute. Calidum 05:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Most of those came after the 5 RM discussions that all closed in favor of following WP:NCCAPS for such things, and were only for cases where sources were clearly dominantly lowercase. Only a few were "since this discussion started", which is what I asked you about. The list is easy to find, but I asked what you meant by "aggressive" and whether any of them look like they were either incorrect or controversial. Marcus's ranting does not make them controversial; I asked Wikiproject Military History to review recent moves and got no responses. So please clarify your complaint, or retract it. Dicklyon (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support TBAN on page moves. The indef of MarcusBritish was overdue, his behaviour/language was completely unacceptable. Dicklyon raised this issue at Milhist, but frankly, as a general rule we tend to be pretty drama-averse (MarcusBritish aside), and most members just want to get on and create content in their area of interest rather than get involved in a running battle with someone wielding ngram results like a sword in areas outside one's area. Dicklyon appears to be uninterested in what the specialist reliable sources used in each article say about capitalisation of the word "campaign". He has decided they should all be lower-cased, and just goes on with doing it regardless. If not controversial, this behaviour is tendentious, and given he was indeffed for page move-related behaviour in the past, the obvious next step is a TBAN on page moves. I don't support an indef at this time, as I am not sure that the case for them being "controversial" has been made out. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:04, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  @Peacemaker67: Thanks for your support against Marcus in the project and RM discussions. If I recall correctly we were in complete agreement that campaign article capping is to be decided on a case-by-case basis based on sources. Take a look at Talk:Waterloo Campaign for instance (which is still open last I looked) – it's all about looking at sources. Please tell me if you think I moved some pages in error. It's true I tend to put more weight on general sources than on specialist sources, but would there have been a different outsome some place if it were the opposite? Not at Waterloo campaign, as far as I can tell, which is where the point has been pushed hardest (and I haven't moved that one yet since it was contested). Dicklyon (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose A, neutral on B. An indef is overkill and goes to the extreme solution without taking Dicklyon's good faith actions and explanations into account. The editor's continuing contributions to the project greatly outweigh any incidental page moves, and all of those seem to have been done in good faith (WP:Assume good faith) with logic backed by evidence. The Jr. and Sr. moves were done in good faith and per the results of RMs (I was involved in the comma wars, and when Dicklyon moved the pages it was as a result of the RMs). And the World Heritage Site moves, for instance, which are also used as an example for Dicklyon to be indeffed, were originally moved to lower-case per an RM close before being correctly brought back to their proper name status, and when Dicklyon moved them it was totally within understandable behavior and Wikipedia policy. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:50, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  Randy, I really appreciate your response here, since you were my main opponent in quite a few RM discussions on commas and caps. Now it's fun that you say "before being correctly brought back to their proper name status", knowing how much sources and I disagree with you on that! Anyway, the RM decided, so that's where we left it. Thanks again. Dicklyon (talk) 14:42, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks. I had read this discussion for a couple days at its start, but missed until now when it suddenly evolved into an indef discussion (talk about leaps of ungoodfaith). You certainly, from any of the discussions I was involved in, acted within Wikipedia good faith limits and presented evidence which you and others thought backed up your choices. That you were wrong on some is neither here nor there (mostly there), but you didn't act outside of normal page moves within the situations. I'm surprised this has even gotten this far. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose A and oppose page-move topic ban against Dicklyon pretty much per Randy. I won't pretend I always agree with Dick when it comes to matters of titles and styling - he comes from the school-of-thought that we don't have to follow the sources when it comes to matters of styling and capitalisation, unless it is close to 100% of the sources, while I prefer to follow sources if they form anything upwards of a supermajority for a particular style. On the issue of page moves, I'll agree that occasionally Dick pushes through moves that I would regard as controversial and in need of discussion. But crucially, he respects consensus and he doesn't edit war or redo moves that have been reversed. As noted by Randy, his mass-page-moves are almost always following patterns that are already decided in enough community venues to make them uncontroversial, such as the aforementioned Jr. / Sr. comma debate. Dick's site-ban was lifted four years ago, and I think his behaviour in the four years since is good enough that we don't need to re-invoke that old sanction at this time. Similarly, banning him from the RM and titling space would not be helpful as that's one of the areas he contributes to a lot. In summary, Dick has come here in good faith to seek a remedy against an editor who was abusing him and justifiably so, as that has resulted in that user being banned. I don't think we should be using that as the opportunity to WP:BOOMERANG Dick, when ultimately his only crime is to want the best for the encyclopedia and to have his own strong opinions about how to achieve that. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  True, I'm not a fan of "follow the sources" as letting sources vote on our styling questions, when we have our own well specified style. But in my mass moves I don't think I've crossed the line that separates us. Thanks for your supportive comments. Dicklyon (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  While I have absolutely no doubt that the opinion expressed by Amakuru above is their own and not influenced by anyone else, I do note that Dicklyon WP:CANVASSed their participation here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  Nyttend failed to ping him when he claimed that I was edit warring with him; his perspective was needed for me defense. Is that not OK? Dicklyon (talk) 23:08, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose A, Support B. Dicklyon is a net positive to the project. MarcusBritish is not. -- Rockstonetalk to me! 17:56, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  Many thanks. I don't believe we've met. Dicklyon (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose A. I too think the contributions by Dicklyon to the project are a huge "positive", currently and over a number of years. The moves by Dicklyon are not damaging for the content or naming of the pages by any reasonable account. My very best wishes (talk) 18:07, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• I am glad that there are editors who evaluate Dicklyon's value to the project as a "net positive", but that is really not the issue here. Did he or did he not violate the clear language of the restriction that was placed on him when the community granted his standard offer request, as expressed by Prodego: "Per consensus at ANI I have unblocked your account, under the provision that you avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves." The evidence is crystal clear that he did. Those that wish to keep Dicklyon editing ought to concentrate their efforts on getting a community consensus for a lesser sanction, since whether he is a "net positive" or a "net negative" is irrelevant to the question of whether he violated the clear and explicit language of his unblock conditions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dicklyon, can you please do not make large scale, potentially controversial actions? If for no other reason, do not you want to minimize disruption? I must say however that "large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves" is not a clear and unequivocal language. What is "large scale" A hundred? A thousand? More important, I checked their recent moves, and they are fine. WP:IAR please. My very best wishes (talk) 01:47, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

"Large scale", "mass pass moves" - Is there any doubt that -- in Dicklyon's words from the discussion in the first section -- "1000 Jr and Sr bios", "900 rivers and creeks", "fewer than 100 lighthouse moves" (by which I assume he doesn't mean "a handful, or "22", but something close to 100), as well as 199 "campaign" moves as counted by Calidum, are all "large scale" or "mass" page moves? Alright, some people might throw out the lighthouse moves, but nonetheless there are 3 examples, two of them by Dicklyon's own admission, which easily qualify as violations of his unblock conditions. It's completely irrelevant which of these moves were justified, or "controversial", or were or weren't reverted, he simply was not supposed to be doing mass page moves in the first place. If the moves were necessary, Dicklyon did not need to be the editor who made them, another editor, one who wasn't forbidden to make "mass page moves", could have done them. Dicklyon could even have pointed out the need for those moves on the appropriate WikiProject talk page, but he was disallowed from doing them. I don;t know how the facts could be any clearer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:14, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

As I was involved in the Jr. comma wars I'd like to state some obvious points. Our side lost. Dicklyon gladly moved the titles that he was entitled to move. Who else was going to do it? That job alone proves Dicklyon's long time worth to the project - he did a job that few if anyone else would have been willing to do with the zeal and interest that he put into it. To the victor go the spoils...and the work. And at the time he moved the World Heritage Site pages he was entitled to do so, per RM. Who else was going to move each and every page (and then guess who had to go-back and return every page). So the justification that he is breaking his ban-return-vow seems like old history. Dicklyon was paroled in late-2015, had served his time, came off parole at some point, and since then has often assisted the project by taking the time and the tedium to do the very same good faith page moves that are now being used against him to try to kick him off the project. Not cool. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:54, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

To anyone thinking of adding a !vote: The numbers of moves is not in dispute (except where Calidum must have counted talk pages, too, inflating my 97 campaign moves to 199). About 7000 moves since my unblock, as I have stipulated several times. Nobody has previously complained about my numbers of moves, since the 2015 unblock. There was nothing controversial in them (or the vast majority of them; someone might still step up and answer where were any of these controversial). There is no restriction on me for how much I can contribute to Wikipedia, as long as I'm not disruptive and don't engage in controversial mass moves. It doesn't matter that Prodego worded it wrong on my talk page (when he close the unblock thread on WP:AN he wrote "User unblocked (with provision to avoid large scale, controversial actions) per consensus here"; his rephrasing on my talk page was ambiguous, but certainly nobody suggested that uncontroversial moves were going to be a problem). Dicklyon (talk) 03:34, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

@Prodego: I hate to keep pinging you, but if you could help me out here with a clarification of your unblock condition, that might help. Dicklyon (talk) 03:47, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• (To those reading this, I sincerely apologize for sounding like a broken record, but Dicklyon continues to misinterpret many facets of this situation.) Again, Prodego did not unblock you, the commmunity unblocked you, and Prodego was the instruments of the community's will. So while Prodego can certain give their opinion on the matter, it is not controlling - what is controlling is whether the community thinks you violated your unblock conditions to avoid any "large scale actions, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves," which you, of course, did not avoid at all. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:29, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon: - as Beyond My Ken says, the 2015 block was a community block, and the unblock was enacting a community consensus. I'd reaffirm that I don't think unblock conditions from 2015 are relevant at this point, and that it would be improper for an admin to block based on them. Forming a community consensus that a block is needed again is the appropriate way forward if one believes it is needed. I haven't reviewed all the material here sufficiently to participate in the discussion of those details. Prodego ^talk 00:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose B A—That's ridiculous. And just a minor issue: we all have a lot to thank Dicklyon for in his tireless efforts to improve consistency and logic in many areas of en.WP. Occasionally an action is ill-judged, so admins should use the skill they're supposed to have to convey this to him.

  As for B, is the editor prepared to show contrition and self-insight, and to give an undertaking to avoid such behaviour? Has s/he been asked such? If there's contrition, understanding, and an undertaking, I suggest the project would be better off without imposing draconian measures against her/him. Tony (talk) 07:26, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• If you meant to oppose the sanction against Dicklyon, you should have voted "Oppose A". Proposal B is at this pointa a non-inssue, as MarcusBritish has been indef blocked already. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for correcting. But BMK, you could cool off your style here. It's over the top. AN/I is toxic at the moment. Tony (talk) 07:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Surely the two feuding users are primarily at fault, but now we see one of them harshly punished and another under thunderstorm, but this noticeboard with its abominable culture greatly contributed to escalation of the conflict. The third actor of this quarrel, who provoked both MarcusBritish and Dicklyon, has now good chances to escape unharmed. Burn AN/I. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:46, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

That's a great slogan. Tony (talk) 07:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• It's generally not the case that the editor who proposed sanctions is sanctioned for doing so, if there are reasonable grounds for the sanction proposal, which numerous editors agreed there were. However, if some admin should decide that I transgressed, I'm willing to take whatever punishment sanction they propose to deal out, although I can't see at the moment what the grounds for that would be. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• This is not about elimination of one Beyond_My_Ken from Wikipedia. Indeed this resonator cavity for all Wikipedian noise signals should be destroyed; Beyond_My_Ken may go to do any helpful thing instead of feeding crapfests. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:29, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Well, if it's anything to you, I can assure you that an insignificantly small percentage of my 240,000-some edits have been related to this discussion, while about 70% of those edits have been to improve articles. Whether or not this discussion is, as you call it, a "crapfest" is somewhat a matter of opinion, don't you think? Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:55, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose A and oppose topic ban per Amakuru. Most of Dicklyon's page moves have been entirely uncontroversial and gnomish, and I haven't seen evidence that he move-warred when challenged. His ban was lifted quite some time ago. I see the proposal as a typical ANI "plague on both your houses" over-reaction. No such user (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks, No such, for your kind words. Isn't it funny how BMK brags about his quantity work ("my 240,000-some edits") while trying to punish me for mine? This seems like more of the "Wiki-Douchebaggery" that he is known for in off-wiki comments. Dicklyon (talk) 15:22, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose A and oppose t-ban - why on earth should we impose ill-will on one of our most proficient editors? It only harms the project. In the event no one has noticed, we're running out of admins and editors as a result. Surely there are other things editors can be doing to improve and expand the project. I'm on a coffee break so I'll use this op to shout-out that we need help over at NPP and AfC. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:38, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose A and oppose topic ban. The mass moves with which I assisted had consensus carefully obtained in advance through formal channels such as RfC and BRFA. I see no evidence that other mass moves were controversial. We shouldn't punish an editor for making changes approved by the community, even if a minority opposed them. Certes (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose A, oppose TBAN: The proposal seems uncharacteristically harsh to me. I don't usually comment but I've been following the discussions including this one; and this one in particular stood out to me as one with the potential to rid ourselves of an editor who's a net positive by a great margin, for nothing serious. Whatever warnings they deserve, to foster an understanding that making mass moves isn't entirely their divine right on Wikipedia, I think they've gotten already, and I can see that they are seriously concerned here, from how thoroughly they're making sure people who oppose this proposal cast a clear !vote in exactly this section. The only concern I have is, they seem to be very sure of themself (probably somewhat warranted/understandable from what I've just learned of them). I hope that, if this proposal fails (which I sincerely hope it does), they don't take it as an affirmation that they've earned community endorsement to do what they please regarding what they personally believe is best for Wikipedia. They seem quite civil and very competent but they should probably step back occasionally (more than they seem to be doing currently) and try and see things from other people's perspectives. No one can fault anyone for being mostly right but such a person should particularly take care to make sure that they don't end up their own worst enemy in rare occasions that they're not. This I find as the most likely reason for concerns raised here by supporters, including IDHT. (I am not very experienced but am an eager learner, if any of my words/phrasings are inappropriate, feel free to strike them quickly, and explain it to me kindly. Thanks!) Usedtobecool ^✉ ✨ 19:44, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support B. I watched the unblock with concern but held out hope that MarcusBritish would not return to his old, vile ways. Alas. Lagrange613 12:52, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support A (I doubt this will be any surprise) Andy Dingley (talk) 14:34, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm surprised – that you took so long! Dicklyon (talk) 22:09, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Hold on here

I just noticed that Marcus was indeffed based on a proposal here, and that it's been proposed that I be indeffed, too, in this discussion that I thought we were done with. Was nobody thinking I might want to be notified, so I could inquire about the "charges" and defend myself? BMK's evidence that my moves were controverial is that some of them were reverted 8 months later by a guy who over-capitalized a whole bunch of articles, including many that were always lowercase, and that included some of the ones I had moved in Oct/Nov 2018 – and thus I am retroactively so disruptive that I have to be blocked?

And why did BMK (not even an admin, iiuc) jump in with such a draconian proposal when things had already settled down between me and Marcus?

I have particular disdain for all those who supported a block before anybody has bothered to say specifically which moves or groups of moves might be considered controversial, and why. There's a lot of hearsay there, but no actually evidence that I can even discuss. Come on people, be sensible please. If someone thinks that some of my moves were controversial, they need to say which ones, so we can look at them, before jumping to these conclusions and a disproportionate reaction. I repeatedly ask Marcus and the Wikiproject Military History to tell me if any of my moves looked wrong or controversial, or to just revert them if so. Did anyone do so? Pretty much not. Similarly in other projects; discussion has generally preceded "mass" moves, so that we wouldn't get into situations where there was any significant disagreement. If you think Marcus's disagreement was "significant", please point out where he said one sensible thing that would make you think that.

Until people point out what I did wrong, with a couple of links, instead of just reading wrong inferences into the discussion above, there is no reason to be treating me as a disruptive editor. If you think I am, show us.

All !votes before now should be considered null and void. Let's see what the case is first, if anyone will present one, and let me respond, then we can talk about whether a sanction is in order. Dicklyon (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you under the impression that only admins can make proposals on AN/I? That is not the case. Also, there was no requirement to notify you about a discussion which was ongoing, which you had participated in, and which had not been closed. If you failed to continue to track it, there's nobody to blame for that except yourself.

What you did wrong was to violate the terms of your unblock condition, which was to "avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves." Above you wrote that you made 75 "campaign" moves, "fewer than 100" lighthouse moves, 900 moves to rivers and creeks, and 1000 jr and sr moves; maybe I missed some as well. Some of those moves may well be non-controversial, but others were reverted in full, which means that you judged wrongly, and that they were controversial. In any case, my interpretation is that you have not "avoided large scale, potentially controversial actions, such as page moves", but have continued doing them as if you had never been indef blocked in the first place. Others may interpret your actions differently, or may see the best solution to be a topic ban rather than a re-imposition of your indef block, and that's fine, but you can hardly be surprised that after being indef blocked for making mass moves, and then being unblocked with the proviso that you avoid mass moves, that there should be the suggestion that you be sanctioned for basically ignoring your unblock conditions. I suggest that you return your indignation to your pocket and start explaining why you shouldn't be re-indeffed or topic banned.

Your suggestion that the !votes already cast be "null and void" is ridiculous on its face, assuming as it does that the !voters are unable to read the clear words in the discussion above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:06, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Your interpretation is of no interest to me; I am fully aware of what I wrote above and how you're misinterpreting and misrepresenting what happened. I'm wondering whether someone has an actual case, or will say which moves they think I made were controversial, and why. I realize you reverted a move of mine once, and reverted a few of my edits without comment, but I don't know what you have against me. Did I wrong you at some point? Dicklyon (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Sorry, no. It's pretty clear you should stop with the page moves. Whether that happens as the result of voluntary action on your part, a TBAN or an indefinite block remains to be seen. Someone has said you have been moving pages since the start of this. That suggest the need for an immediate indefinite block to stop the disruption. -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:00, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm stopping all moves now that I know there's a proposal to sanction me; a notification would have been nice. That "somebody" is who I already pinged below. And if you think there is "disruption" anywhere here, please give at least one diff, don't just go by "somebody said". Dicklyon (talk) 22:04, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

@Calidum: Since you voted to sanction me after I started this section asking for evidence, I'll respond to your remarks. You wrote "Dick has gotten more aggressive with his page moves since this discussion started." I don't know what you mean by "aggressive" here, since each of my moves is made with care and precision, where there is no reason to suspect controversy, in an aim to improve the encyclopedia. So could you point out what recent moves you think were in some way wrong or controversial, and why (and keep the conclusion of the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Military history#Proper nouns in MilHist articles at MOS in mind if you're buying Marcus's argument that his complaints involved anyone but him in that project). That would give us something to look at and discuss, as opposed to all this nonspecific stuff that was provoked by Marcus. Dicklyon (talk) 21:57, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

So, you're just going to ignore the 8 other editors (9 with Calidum) who !voted to re-impose the indef block (vs. the 3 who opposed it and the 5 who were neutral), and pretend that those !votes never happened because they occurred while you were ignoring this discussion? I doubt very much that the closer is going to take the same position. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Pretty much, yes, since they are just reacting to your misrepresentation of things. I'd be happy if any of them would say why they think I have been disruptive or made controversial moves, or whatever. I can ping them if you think that would help. Dicklyon (talk) 22:26, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

So you think that this:

(A) The indefinite block of Dicklyon is re-imposed for multiple incidents of violating his unblock condition, which was not to make controversial mass moves of articles. Dicklyon admits, in the discussion above, to making mass moves which have since been reverted, meaning that they were controversial.

is a "misrepresentation of things"? You yourself outlined in the discussion above the mass moves you had made, and you yourself said that some of them had been reverted entirely. What, then, did I "misrepresent"?

A number of editors, including admins, have said -- before I floated the proposal! -- that your actions were violations of your unblock conditions. Are you going to ignore them too? You were taking part in the discussion at that point. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:20, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

You quoted my words in support of your unsupported inference. You're saying that if someone comes along and reverts some of my moves, then those must have been controversial when I made them. You ignored the context that this was a guy doing a large batch of moves contrary to guidelines – a much larger batch than mine, many months later, with much more reason to be regarded as controversial; and I stayed out of it after that. Look at cases instead of applying poor broad-brush logic, and see if you can say which ones were controversial and why, and then we'll have something to discuss. Dicklyon (talk) 00:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Probably among my 7000 moves since being unblocked there are a few that are controverial; but controversial mass moves? I don't think so. I've done my honest best to engage in discussions to remove controversy before doing anything you might call "mass". If I messed up a few times, show me and we can talk. Stop paying attention to the complaints of Marcus who was an outlier in the Military History project and objected after we had the 4 or 5 RM discussions that made such moves uncontroversial. Nobody in the project supported him (a few remarked "looks better capped" and "it's a proper name" and stuff like that without reference to guidelines or sources, in some of those discussions, but when asked to point out which ones I got wrong, addressed to the project on their talk page, no answer). None were reverted; none were overturned in discussion; most of the moves were after these discussions, when no real controversy remained; just Marcus. So WTF are you accusing me of (pardon my French)? Dicklyon (talk) 00:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

And review what those "previous editors" said. Nyttend said "It sure looks to me as if Dicklyon is engaging in a mass pagemove attempt" and "he's recently engaged in large scale, controversial actions regarding pagemoves". Well it "sure looks to me" like Nyttend is just repeating what Marcus claimed; he certainly didn't represent any evidence or reason to believe that large number of my moves were controversial. Where is he getting this stuff? Someguy1221 complained about the lighthouse moves (whih were reverted any months later as we reviewed), and the World Heritage sites, which were following the consensus of a big RM discussion when I did them. The fact that that consensus later changed doesn't mean my moves were controversial when I did them. Did any other editor make either specific or vague accusations? Please show me if so. Dicklyon (talk) 00:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

So, just to recap, you're going to ignore all editors who !voted to re-impose your indef block because you made multiple violations of your unblock conditions, simply because they !voted before you were aware of the sanctions discussion, and it's your opinion that @Nyttend: is incapable of making his own evaluation of your actions and is merely mindlessly repeating what MarcusBritish said. You're sticking to your story that you did nothing wrong, that you never violated your unblock conditions, and that the editors who have suggested that you be sanctioned -- either with a re-imposition of the indef block or a topic ban (actually, the two editors who suggested that in the "Proposal" discussion changed their minds and are now in favor of an indef) -- are generally incompetent to independently evaluate your history because they were misled by my "misrepresentation" of the things you actually said in the above discussion. And you're completely closing your eyss to the argument that you made changes to MOS in order that your page moves would be MOS-compliant, and then edit-warred to keep those changes in place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:17, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, yes, you're right, they may not be watching, so now I've pinged them all to see if I can learn what I'm accused of, since you won't say. Please give them time to respond, if you would. Dicklyon (talk) 05:04, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

So you're edit-warring at , several reverts in favor of your own position. This should be the last straw: Dicklyon pretends to be so fervently committed to MOS that he'll edit-war on articles to maintain it, yet in reality deceives others by making it look like his preferred ideas are consensus. You broke the community's trust with socking, you got back to editing with a promise to avoid a certain type of contentious edits, you've broken that promise, and now you've broken the community's trust here. Lock the door and throw away the key: this is a project for collaboration, and someone who repeatedly ignores community standards in a prominent fashion mustn't be permitted to continue editing. Nyttend (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not edit warring. My last edit there was over 3 weeks ago, when I reverted one revert with a comment that seemed to satisfy the guy I reverted. Dicklyon (talk) 04:04, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@GoldenRing and Lugnuts: Please help me understand what I'm being accused on here. Lugnuts, you said "I've not paid too much attention" to my edits, and then later thanks GoldenRing for the added detail and voted to indef block me. GoldenRing, you came closer than anyone to saying what you think I did wrong, when you wrote "discussion above documents at least three examples of Dicklyon performing mass page moves (ranging from scores of pages to over a thousand) on the basis of MOS guidelines that were later reverted." If you review that discussion, I'm sure you'll see that you were mistaken. The only batches (as far as I know) that were reverted were the 75 lighthouses (in Oct/Nov 2018) and 101 World Heritage sites (in Oct 2018). Was there something else? Did you look into those batches to try to understand whether or how they could have been considered to be "controversial" when I did them? Is this what you want to indef block me for, moves I did last year that amount to less than 3% of the moves I've made since being unblocked, and less than 1% of my editing contributions? Am I retroactively so disruptive that I'm not fit to contribute? Please clarify the basis of your vote to block me (both of you); or change your vote. Dicklyon (talk) 04:44, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@MarnetteD and PhilKnight: Please help me understand the basis for your vote to block me. MarnetteD, you mention "violation of unblock conditions", but give no clue what that was inferred from; what is it that you think I did? Is there more than hearsay operating here, or was there some evidence that you looked at? And PhilKnight, you only say "per MarnetteD"; what's that about? Dicklyon (talk) 04:51, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@WaltCip: I don't see that you made any comments about me, yet you supported an indef block. As you can imagine, that might be something that I would care about, so can you do me the favor of saying what you think I did that makes me so disruptive that I need to be indef blocked? Dicklyon (talk) 04:56, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@Javert2113: You say "Both persons here have been disruptive: one to the integrity of the project..." Can you say what you think I did that was disruptive to the integrity of the project? And how my opinion that your vote should be treated as null and vote rises to the level of offense that needs an indef block? Dicklyon (talk) 04:58, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dlohcierekim: What are you thinking? You didn't say much about me other than support an indef block. And what the heck is this about? You guys have a little blood-thirsty shark pack going at AN/I? Dicklyon (talk) 05:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes. We serve tasty chum and punch at the meetings. Beyond My Ken ("not even an admin, iiuc") (talk) 05:58, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Hey, don't you think that "You guys have a little blood-thirsty shark pack going at AN/I?" is a little, you know, WP:NPA-violatingish? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:04, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

A little. Dicklyon (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon: I don't know what's difficult to understand here. You were unblocked on the condition that you "avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves." You made mass page moves. You don't seem to see the problem with that. You should be reblocked.
  You were not unblocked on the condition that the mass page moves you made were uncontroversial; you were unblocked on the condition that you don't make mass page moves and other potentially controversial actions. GoldenRing (talk) 09:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @Dicklyon: It is about your dismissal of the community's concerns about your actions. It is about your nonsense of trying to say the !votes for sanctions somehow should not count. It's for your utter unwillingness to accept the need to remedy the disruption your editing has caused. Shark pack my hind foot. You've been counseled about your behavior before and have continued this episode (escapade?) while the matter was at ANI. You have left the community with no other recourse but to block you until you can convince the community that the disruption is at an end. I had thought the TBAN would be a suitable and sufficient remedy; your response convinced me otherwise.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 10:04, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Where have I dismissed community concerns, and how does that become a blockable offense? And why were people voting on non-specific charges against me, without notifying me or letting me response and ask for clarification? Obviously those votes should be dismissed while concerns are clarified. As for the "potentially" thing, I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up that silliness. Surely nobody can abide by a restriction of avoiding "potentially " controversial actions. You're being absurd. And the admin who wrote that already said a that I had amply fulfilled his condition with multiple years of good work. Now you're complaining about the "quantity" of my work, but won't point out any specific problems. Can you not see the aburdity here? Dicklyon (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
      • You were banned from doing something. You did that thing repeatedly. You dismiss that as "silliness". You wonder where you've dismissed the community's concerns. You wonder why people would rather indef you than have to put up with this. GoldenRing (talk) 13:26, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
        • Dicklyon, the condition was "avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves." This is pretty clear. "Mass page moves" is provided as an example of the sort of "large scale, potentially controversial actions" you were to avoid. In other words, ALL mass page moves are by definition in the category of actions you were required to avoid as a condition of the unblock. You seem to be reading this condition as "avoid large scale, potentially controversial...mass page moves," but that's certainly not how it was written. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 18:51, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon: To clarify, at the time, I was supporting an indef of MarcusBritish. I've no opinion on indeffing you.--WaltCip (talk) 17:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• @WaltCip: Thanks, that's what I suspected. If you'd be kind enough to clarify above where you said "Support per above", that be nice. Dicklyon (talk) 17:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• I've already made that clarification, with a link to WaltCip's comment above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon: Why did you WP:CANVASS Amakuru here? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:55, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• I asked Amakuru to comment because I was accused here of edit warring with him, and wanted his reaction. Is that a problem? Dicklyon (talk) 20:43, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• So, you also WP:CANVASSed your talk page stalkers here. You just shamelessly violate Wikipedia policies left and right, don't you? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:00, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, it is a problem. You did not simply asked him to comment on the edit warring, you wrote:

  Amakuru, I am being retrospectively accused of edit warring with you when I reverted your revert here, on July 13, and I'm also being accused of unspecified large-scale controversial moves, in an attempt to indef block me. I don't understand why, but a bunch of editors have piled on, while I can't get them to tell me which large-scale moves were controversial. Your perspective might be useful since they accuse me of edit warring with you. Top section in WP:AN/I. Dicklyon (talk) 04:20, 8 August 2019 (UTC) (emphasis added)

  directing him to the "attempt to indef block me." That's an outright blatant violation of WP:Canvassing, which you should know.
  Furthermore, in regard to your protestation that no one will tell you which of your large scale moves are the problem, they are all a problem. Your unblock conditions read:

  Per consensus at ANI I have unblocked your account, under the provision that you avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves. Prodego talk 04:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

  That's clear and explicit. You were not told to stay away from "controversial" mass moves, you were told to stay away from all mass moves, because they are "potentially controversial". No one has to prove that your moves were controversial, only that you made mass moves, and you yourself have admitted that you have done that.
  Please stop being disingenuous. People in the section above have said that you are a "net positive" to the project. Perahps instead of pretending you don;t know what you're being accused of, you should work toward convincing enough editors that you really are good for the project, so that the community simply topic ban you from page moves instead of re-instating the indef block the unblock conditions of which you have undoubtedly violated. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:00, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon: If you blatantly CANVASSed one editor in public on their talk page, how do we know that you didn;'t canvass anyone else via e-mail? Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• I that some kind of riddle? I don't get it. Dicklyon (talk) 20:43, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• The only riddle here is why you are denying doing what you admitted to doing in the discussion in the first section: making mass page moves, something that you were forbidden to do. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:03, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Prodego: I don't think I was ever forbidden from doing non-controversial moves. And Prodego already said of his unblock conditions that he thinks "User:Dicklyon met any restrictions from my 2015 unblock and that they are no longer relevant." BMK, I will no longer reply to you, as most things I can think of to say to you at this point would not be viewed as civil. Dicklyon (talk) 21:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• The unblocking admin's opinion is, of course, of interest, but it is not dispositive, since @Prodego: was not undoing his own personal block of you, they were enforcing this community decision. It was the community which decided to grant you the standard offer you requested, and it is up to the community to decide if you have violated your unblock conditions or not, it is not up to Prodego to do so, although they can certainly offer their personal opinion on the matter, which would be welcome. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Prodego has again clarified above: "I'd reaffirm that I don't think unblock conditions from 2015 are relevant at this point, and that it would be improper for an admin to block based on them." Dicklyon (talk) 01:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

@Simonm223, Martinevans123, BubbaJoe123456, Calton, HandThatFeeds, and WaltCip: Since you all had read part of the discussion and expressed an opinion on blocking Marcus, but had not (yet) expressed an opinion on BMK's proposal to block me, and since I've now actually heard about the proposal and responded, I thought it would make sense to ask you to take another look and see if you can form an opinion with respect to me. Obviously, I'm seeking an "Oppose A" in the #Proposal section above, but will take whatever comes. Please read this section #Hold on here and check out the Oppose votes at the bottom of the #Proposal section to get the side of the story that was previously missing. Also note that still nobody has been able to say which moves of mine they found to be controversial or wrong, or why; or to point out any other disruptive behavior. Dicklyon (talk) 21:00, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@Simonm223, BubbaJoe123456, Calton, HandThatFeeds, and WaltCip: Dicklyon is incorrect. Multiple editors (including BubbaJoe123456, who even pinged him) have told him that all of his mass page moves are violations of his unlock condition, which was that "you avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves" . Under those conditions, mass page moves do not have to be "controversial" to be a violation, instead, he was to avoid all mass page moves because they are "potentially controversial". Dicklyon may have been laboring under a misapprehension these past 4 years since he was unblocked, but the language of the unblock conditions is clear and explicit and not really subject to easy misinterpretation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:12, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Wow. And I thought it was only the Boy Scouts who were unnaturally fond of canvas. Count me out on this one, sorry. Neutral is the best you're gonna get from me. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Since I was pinged I will note that GoldenRing says it all. Dicklyon was banned from making page moves - Dicklyon repeatedly made page moves. Thus my support for proposal A - which has only grown with all the wikilawyering going on. Please do not ping me to this thread again. I have ANI on my watchlistMarnetteD|Talk 22:59, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Absurd! I was not banned from making page moves. If I had been, someone would have said so before I got 4 years and 7000 moves down the road. Dicklyon (talk) 23:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

The proposal was based on the accusation of "violating his unblock condition, which was not to make controversial mass moves of articles". He has now changed it to "many moves, controversial or not" (that is complaining about the quantity of my work instead of the quality), and now you've changed it to "any moves". Of course, I have no defense against these absurdities. Still, no controversial mass moves have been identified – correct me if I'm wrong, anybody. Dicklyon (talk) 23:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

MarnetteD neglected to say "mass page moves" or "large scale page moves", that was the only thing wrong with their statement. And, again, your unblock conditions were, and continue to be to that "you avoid large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves" . You made large scale page moves, therefore you have violated your unblock conditions. I can't put it any plainer than that. How long are you going to keep up this absurd WP:IDHT charade? This is Wikilawyering for the completely credulous. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:25, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Good God almighty. I don't even want to sift through this. Just like Martinevans123, I'm going to make like a Switzerland and be firmly neutral. I don't want to be involved in this. But the more I'm pinged, the more favorable I may become to an IBAN.--WaltCip (talk) 13:01, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

IBAN for whom? MarcusBritish is indeffed; the crapfest is currently fed by certain other actors. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: I remain, as I was previously, neutral regarding the proposed t-ban, though I feel an indef would be unwarranted per at this juncture. However attempts to WP:CANVAS are not likely to make me more favorably inclined toward you. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

That kind of "neutrality" cowardice puts me in mind of First they came .... I realize it's asking a lot of people to read this shitfest full of mostly MarcusBritish's diatribe and falsehoods, and BMK's history of such prosecutions, and speak up for me. But how else can we start to push back on BMK's aggressive drama-mongering at AN/I? And why does he want me indeffed? As punishment for a large body of work is all I can figure. Dicklyon (talk) 14:44, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Support t-ban on Dicklyon per their previous comment. I wouldn't want to be showing cowardice. Simonm223 (talk) 14:54, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I have changed my !vote to Support an indef until Dicklyon states understanding of why this entire discussion happened in the first place. Mass page moves are inherently controversial, thus why they were mentioned in his unblock restrictions. I'm not sure if he just somehow did not put two and two together there or what, but it's definitely a violation of his unblock conditions. Maybe it needs to be spelled out in a formal TBAN going forward, I'll leave that up to admins. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:00, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon: - how can we ensure that you not repeat mass page moves? starship.paint (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

  Can you give me an example of what sort of mass moves you want to avoid, and why? So far nobody has said which of my mass moves might have been controversial or disruptive. I know it's easy to miss that point when reading this mess. Thanks for looking into it. Dicklyon (talk) 15:27, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

  @Dicklyon: - unblocked your account, under the provision that you avoid ... mass page moves. - seems like the unblock provision is “no mass page moves at all”. Seems like you think you still can do non-controversial mass page moves, and seems like many other users disagree. Perhaps other editors believe that all mass moves are inherently controversial. I think a clear solution is to simply have you stop performing mass moves altogether. starship.paint (talk) 16:09, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

  I've pinged @Prodego: to come back again and clarify again re those terms, but he hasn't been on WP yet this month, so we'll have to wait. See his comments above. I have no intention of avoiding non-conrtroverisal non-disruptive work as a result of this sham. Show me where I have done wrong and we can talk about it. So far, none of my accusers will point out what I did wrong in the last four years among my huge quantity of contributions to WP. Please don't jump on their bandwagon. Dicklyon (talk) 17:57, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Prodego has already said they consider the conditions of the unblock were abided to and aren't relevant anymore, and that they think all users should refrain from large scale controversial actions (without specifying whether Dicklyon's actions qualify as that). I think that's clear enough. Usedtobecool ^✉ ✨ 20:55, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Concur, and I'd point out that my opinion holds no more weight than anyone else's. It is clear that 'reinstating' a several year old block is not a reasonable action to take, but a new block is the type of action which should be discussed here on ANI. Prodego ^talk 00:58, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You also noted above that "I don't think unblock conditions from 2015 are relevant at this point". And there is nothing else left; the only argument BMK has left was that I was bound to not make any mass moves, even if uncontroversial. How anyone could be criticized for uncontroversial work is still a mystery to me, but that's all he has. Dicklyon (talk) 01:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that is the opinion of one editor, Prodego, an admin, which should carry exactly as much weight as the opinion of everyone else who commented here, as his role was solely to close the AN/I discussion and enact the community's decision to unblock Dicklyon. I respect their opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that Dicklyon's unblock conditions -- which were never lifted, and therefore, despite Prodegos opinion, are still in effect -- call for Dicklyon to avoid mass page moves, on the grounds that they are "potentially controversial", not "mass page moves that are controversial" -- that language does not appear. Dicklyon's apparently deliberate misreading of their unblock conditions -- which have been explained to him numerous times, by numerous editors -- is an example of gross WP:IDHT behavior and the Big Lie, by which incessantly repeating a falsehood gives it greater credibility.

Further, I would request that the closer of this discussion, when determining consensus, note that arguments made for re-instating the indef block on Dicklyon are based on normal accepted Wikipedia processes, while the majority of the "oppose" !votes are based on opinions of Dicklyon's value to the project, which is not relevant at this time. They would be relevant were Dicklyon be re-indeffed or sanctioned with a topic ban, as an argument that the project would be better off with him free to edit, but bringing them up now is putting the cart before the horse. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:28, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Again, there were no special conditions since 2016 and Dicklyon is not under restrictions currently. Did he disrupt Wikipedia with page moves? It may warrant a block, but as a measure of prevention whereas the AN/I sharks apparently are more interested in punishment. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 15:06, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Dicklyon's uunblock conditions from 2015 were never rescinded, and therefore are still in effect today. If Dicklyon want them to be lifted, they would need to make a request to the community to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:41, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Ah, could I use this case as an example of how ANI has become destructive to community health and productivity? Tony (talk) 23:26, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Likely. Prodego ^talk 00:58, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Oppose A - unblock conditions were slightly vague and it is now up to the community to decide if all mass moves are inherently controversial such that Dicklyon cannot make them. Even if the answer is yes, there should not be any punishment based on that. He should not be indefinitely blocked for this vagueness. starship.paint (talk) 00:03, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• If the unblock conditions were at all vague then, they should not be now. The number of mass page moves Dicklyon should perform is zero. Jonathunder (talk) 00:31, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

  Then let's impose that from this moment on, and let Dicklyon off for the past 'violation'. starship.paint (talk) 02:44, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

  Why would you impose a mass move ban, in this situation where nobody has any specific allegations of my past ones being wrong or disruptive or even controversial? I keep asking for people to show me a specific block of moves that was in some way problematic, but have they responded? Do people still think the ones that were reverted were controversial when I did them? And what is mass anyway? When I was doing the 900 rivers, I was a machine, doing 30 or more per day. But usually I'm more like 15 per week. Does that count as "mass"? Who is going to do things like the river disambiguation fixes if I don't (approved unanimously at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 139#RfC about river disambiguation conventions)? Dicklyon (talk) 05:04, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Move to close

As I don't think a consensus to sanction Dicklyon will emerge as it's past time to move on.-- Dlohcierekim 15:20, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm good with that so long as it's noted that Marcus is C-BANNED per his block log. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:59, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Banned? Do threatening Emails result in a “community ban”? I see him only losing the known account. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

@Incnis Mrsi: A consensus emerged on this page for indeffing Marcus for his incivility. He continued the incivility on his talk page and lost talk page access. He harassed users via email and lost that access as well. As you are an admin, I'm surprised you are not aware that the community consensus to indef does constitute a community ban.-- Dlohcierekim 20:49, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

What? Firstly, Dlohcierekim mistakes about me and I’m essentially nobody here. But

Where do we see a (sub)section on the community ban for MarcusBritish from the site and the closure thereof? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 21:24, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh, if I'm not mistaken, a CBAN is for the person behind the accounts- however many they have.-- Dlohcierekim 20:52, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• I certainly agree that this has been open long enough, and has attracted sufficient community involvement (some of it CANVASSed by Dicklyon), to be closed. And I also agree with Dlohcierekim that (caveat: I haven't actually run the numbers) it doesn't appear as if my Proposal (A) has attracted sufficient support to be enacted. However, I would like to point out to the closer that, taken together, support for that proposal (which called for a re-instatement of Dicklyon's previous indef block) and support for a topic ban means that there is probably sufficient support (again, I haven't counted) for some kind of sanction against Dicklyon for one to be imposed. My view is that a topic ban is sort of a "lesser included" sanction, and that the !votes for indeffing should count as support for (at least) a topic ban. Perhaps the closer will see it differently, but that's my view. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:33, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Altered as a result of my count of votes listed below. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

• Also a reminder to the closer about my comment here, concerning the quality of arguments presented being taken in to account. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• OK, I have now done a raw count of the votes. Here are my results:

• Support Proposal (A) [indef block] - 10 (1 weak)
• Support topic ban - 2
• Oppose - 14 (2 strong, 5 opposing both proposal and TBan)
• Neutral/no opinion - 6

Given these results (and please note that I did not double check them), I have altered my original comment, as it's apparent that there is no numerical support for a sanction against Dicklyon. The only factor remaining is the strength of arguments. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oh, and yes, the indef block of MarcusBritish should count as being community-approved, meaning the MB has been CBANned from the site. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:33, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Having just re-read WP:CBAN, I am not certain of this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:37, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Well, someone could go ahead and propose a community ban of the user. I would, but I've bowed out of that for the near future. -- Rockstonetalk to me! 06:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

So I guess I'm supposed to choose a bit to remind the closer of, too? I choose my first remark on BMK's proposal. Dicklyon (talk) 00:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I remember that one, it's a classic. It's the one where you were amazed that a non-admin would dare make a proposal to sanction you. You'd be surprised, we've come a long way - why non-admins can even smoke cigarettes and wear pants these days! Soon, we hope to get the right to vote! Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:02, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. It seems like pointless bureaucracy to say Marcus needs a separate proposal to be CBANned. The only point of a CBAN is that an admin can't overturn the block without community consent, and I'm pretty sure a savvy admin will realize they'll need that anyways. Let's just make that official and not waste anymore time debating it. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:15, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

• I mean, honestly, leaving him not community-banned might be the better way to go, if only because it denies recognition to him. On the other hand, it is helpful to be able to go to his userpage and see that he's banned for whatever reason. -- Rockstonetalk to me! 23:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

• My reading of WP:CBAN, and my understanding of how things have worked in the past on AN, is that you basically need three things in order to have a CBAN:

• (1) An indef block
• (2) Either a review of the block requested by the blocking admin, or an appeal of the block requested by the indeffed editor
• (3) A community discussion which endorses the indef block or rejects the appeal

After all three of those things happens, then the editor is Community Banned. In the case of MarcusBritish, all we have at this point is #1, the indef block. Yes, Courcelles made the block on the basis of the community's input, but the block still needs to be "tested" by being reviewed or appealed and then endorsed. Without thsat, you really don't have a CBan, you simply have a run-of-the-mill indef block. Recall that community site bans are supposed to be more serious than mere blocks; a simple indef block imposed by an admin -- even if it's on the basis of community input -- can still be overturned by any single admin. It takes the re-consideration of the block by the community, and subsequent endorsement, to make it into a CBan that only the community can lift.

At least that's the way it's always worked from my experience, and my understanding from reading WP:CBAN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Second unblock request

I was almost on board with an unblock until I read the last bullet of the second unblock request, which is an unsubstantiated allegation against MarnetteD. That seems... unwise. Guy (Help!) 10:19, 10 August 2019 (UTC)