Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1222
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
User violating contrast guidelines and editing more than 1,500 templates
The user ~2026-20262-76 appears to be making changes to many templates (1675 edits) which may be in violation of MOS:CONTRAST and the recommended minimum of 4.5:1 (e.g., see here for a contrast of 2.41:1 and here for a contrast of 2.38:1). They had previously been given a level 4 warning here for similar edits and a level 2 warning here for unsourced changes. Therefore, I went to WP:AIV for possible long-term abuse. Upon being informed that this was a non-obvious case of vandalism, I asked the user to consider the contrast guidelines here (there is an unfortunate delay due to unrelated circumstances). Twenty minutes after I informed them of the issues, they made a series of edits to Angola-related templates (from here to here). These edits are in violation of MOS:CONTRAST with a contrast of 3.78:1. Therefore, I would like to request that a user with the right to use semi-automated tools use the contrast checking functionality to go through the edits and revert those in violation. For the sake of full disclosure, I would like to note that the user may be associated with the IPs here and here. Unstirredshading23 (talk) 14:57, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- Since I wrote this, there have been some additional edits (e.g., this edit has a contrast of 2.35:1). Unstirredshading23 (talk) 15:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've indefinitely blocked them, and undone some of their edits. There's a ton of damage to repair. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:08, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- Please close the thread as the user has been blocked and this thread is now irrelevant. Unstirredshading23 (talk) 15:09, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- No, it's not. There's a crap ton of damage this editor has done that needs to be undone. Someone with better tools than I have for auto reversions needs to go through and mass undo everything they've done related to color contrast. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:10, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't read your reply (ANI doesn't show the "show new comments" option) and was going to strike my reply. I had written my previous reply under the impression that a recent change patroller had blocked the user without reading this thread. Unstirredshading23 (talk) 15:14, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- No worries. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:23, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Given the potentially wide impacts of fucking things up with templates, is it prudent that we allow temporary accounts to edit them at all? TarnishedPathtalk 01:32, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Not in my view, no. Toadspike [Talk] 02:01, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Do we think this would be worth an RfC? This seems like a pretty good change to pursue. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 03:24, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Maybe. Has it been discussed before? TarnishedPathtalk 04:46, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Do we think this would be worth an RfC? This seems like a pretty good change to pursue. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 03:24, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- There are many navboxes/sidebars where temporary accounts make up most of the edits, so I'd oppose a blanket ban. sapphaline (talk) 07:51, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Not in my view, no. Toadspike [Talk] 02:01, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Given the potentially wide impacts of fucking things up with templates, is it prudent that we allow temporary accounts to edit them at all? TarnishedPathtalk 01:32, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Does someone here know if we should keep the border colors? they look bad to me, but IDK. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 03:39, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- As for the cricket navboxes we are working on standardizing squadbox colors with auto formatting. Vestrian24Bio 16:31, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- No worries. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:23, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- While no one has done auto reversion as far as I am aware, I do want to point out that there might be more temp accounts involved. The blocked account made this edit, which was the exact same edit made around two months ago by another temp account (~2026-74589-0) before they got reverted. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:38, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Materialscientist: Related to the above a bit, was this edit intended to be reverted? Your edit summary the following day implies so, but a different edit was reverted. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:56, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Should a mass revert of all their edits in the template namespace be done? If so, I would recommend an admin do it with User:Tamzin/scripts/massRollbackWithBotMode.js in order to bypass the limit imposed on reverting by rollbackers. Though a rollbacker could do such a thing with something like User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/massRollback.js, just slower. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 03:21, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- @45dogs: I don't think it actually makes a difference for rate limits. There is a difference between admins and (most) non-admins mass-rollbacking, but that comes from the fact that admins are exempt from all rate-limits, and that's true whether or not they use bot mode. The difference with using bot mode is that both the reverts and the original edits get excluded from RecentChanges and watchlists under default settings, which is why I forked WK's script to add that functionality. (I haven't looked closely at whether this is or isn't a good use case for it, just saw my name while scrolling through the 'board.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 15:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think I misremembered what was said at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive376#Mass Edit Revert. Thanks for the correction. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 18:26, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- @45dogs: I don't think it actually makes a difference for rate limits. There is a difference between admins and (most) non-admins mass-rollbacking, but that comes from the fact that admins are exempt from all rate-limits, and that's true whether or not they use bot mode. The difference with using bot mode is that both the reverts and the original edits get excluded from RecentChanges and watchlists under default settings, which is why I forked WK's script to add that functionality. (I haven't looked closely at whether this is or isn't a good use case for it, just saw my name while scrolling through the 'board.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 15:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- They are on adjacent IPs, and there are some other TAs on that small range who have been making color changes. DMacks (talk) 03:30, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think this edit is the same thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Canada_squad_2017_CONCACAF_Gold_Cup&oldid=1298807285 Kingsmasher678 (talk) 03:33, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Also, a good number of these arn't bad edits. We will need to do it by hand I think. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 04:05, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- That is going to be a pain, but it is what it is I guess. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:19, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- If there is consensus here to mass revert, then one could be done anyways. I think a mass revert would be good. Its simply not worth editor time to sift through this. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 13:54, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think it might be actually. What this editor is doing isn't random. They are changing the colors to match the hex values of the countries flags as far as I can tell, and a good number of these infoboxs seemed not to meet MOS:Color anyway. I spot checked a good number two days ago, and at least 40 odd percent were positive changes. Mark me down as an OPPOSE to mass revert, unless the scale become much larger than currently known.
- Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:03, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- If you are willing to look through all the changes, then you are free to do so. It seems like are some 600 or so template edits that are the current revision on ~2026-20262-76's and related TA's contributions page. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 14:09, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Current revision isn't even the problem. Many of the IPs are making the same edits that others have, so a mass revert that only does current revisions would only work if we find every single account. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:30, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- That would be correct unless more edits have been reverted. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:09, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
- If you are willing to look through all the changes, then you are free to do so. It seems like are some 600 or so template edits that are the current revision on ~2026-20262-76's and related TA's contributions page. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 14:09, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- If there is consensus here to mass revert, then one could be done anyways. I think a mass revert would be good. Its simply not worth editor time to sift through this. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 13:54, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- That is going to be a pain, but it is what it is I guess. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:19, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Also, a good number of these arn't bad edits. We will need to do it by hand I think. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 04:05, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't read your reply (ANI doesn't show the "show new comments" option) and was going to strike my reply. I had written my previous reply under the impression that a recent change patroller had blocked the user without reading this thread. Unstirredshading23 (talk) 15:14, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- No, it's not. There's a crap ton of damage this editor has done that needs to be undone. Someone with better tools than I have for auto reversions needs to go through and mass undo everything they've done related to color contrast. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:10, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- comment - the editing patterns here look to me like an unapproved bot. I've looked but not found much information: do we have safeguards to flag unapproved bot editing, especially in a namespace like Template? Eyesinthefire (talk) 03:17, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Guys this has been going on for a while now by multiple accounts, even before temporary accounts was a thing. Here are just some examples:
- And the list goes on.... Vestrian24Bio 16:20, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Special:Contributions/103.20.55.44
- Special:Contributions/103.242.102.11
- Special:Contributions/2A0E:3700:200F:2D00:5DDD:F10D:266F:3641
- Special:Contributions/202.134.14.154
- Special:Contributions/59.152.2.25
- Special:Contributions/103.205.69.13
- Special:Contributions/59.152.7.9
- Special:Contributions/103.205.69.210
- Special:Contributions/~2025-43878-76
- Vestrian24Bio 16:29, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- This is concerning. Have these accounts been warmed for this? Kingsmasher678 (talk) 00:14, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've reverted one of their edits given this is possibly a violation of color contrast guidelines on Wikipedia Galaxybeing (talk) 04:39, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- You need to check and be sure. There are tools availble for this at Kingsmasher678 (talk) 13:50, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Color Kingsmasher678 (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- You need to check and be sure. There are tools availble for this at Kingsmasher678 (talk) 13:50, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Special:Contributions/~2026-14437-79 is another one. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:10, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- TAIPV gives this list of TAs related to ~2026-20262-76:
- ~2026-20262-76
- ~2026-20791-08
- ~2026-20787-48
- ~2026-19130-82
- ~2026-19012-66
- ~2026-18895-19
- ~2026-18774-73
- ~2026-20657-24
- ~2026-20528-36
- ~2026-20341-71
- 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 14:16, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- I am creating a page in my user space to keep track of this. When a IP or TA accounts edits are cleaned, please update the page to mark as done. Feel free to reformat, or move to WP space if preferred. Page is User:Kingsmasher678/Contrast Cleanup Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:45, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Oh whoops. Will do. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:09, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I am creating a page in my user space to keep track of this. When a IP or TA accounts edits are cleaned, please update the page to mark as done. Feel free to reformat, or move to WP space if preferred. Page is User:Kingsmasher678/Contrast Cleanup Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:45, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- 103.67.156.253 is the same. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 15:07, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Couple more to go through:
- Special:Contributions/103.205.69.88
- Special:Contributions/103.205.69.220
- Special:Contributions/103.205.69.216
- Special:Contributions/103.205.69.219
- Special:Contributions/103.60.175.214
- --Super Goku V (talk) 09:16, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
- Whoever this is, it seems like they just mass target football templates. Probably need to go through Category:Europe association football templates by country and sub-categories like Category:UEFA Women's Championship squad navigational boxes by competition, Category:Africa Cup of Nations squad navigational boxes by nation, Category:FIFA Women's World Cup squad navigational boxes by nation to clean this all up. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:40, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
- Also, cricket and basketball Kingsmasher678 (talk) 23:49, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
- +Special:Contributions/~2026-22060-14
- (As an aside, ~2026-20262-76 is now down to 265 current template edits, which is down from 600+ last Monday.) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:57, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- FYI ~2026-22057-27 links to that TA. Blue Sonnet (talk) 01:34, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- So that is another one then. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:50, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- Have you got ~2026-22060-14? Sorry to pile on but I can't see it on the list! Blue-Sonnet 22:49, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- This one is one of the ones we are looking for, feel free to revert. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 00:19, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Oopsie, it's right above! Luckily it's been done - I'll see if there are any stragglers & revert any I find. Blue-Sonnet 02:11, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- This one is one of the ones we are looking for, feel free to revert. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 00:19, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Have you got ~2026-22060-14? Sorry to pile on but I can't see it on the list! Blue-Sonnet 22:49, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- So that is another one then. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:50, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
For review: 103.60.175.15, 45.120.113.2, and ~2026-33795-9.(Hopefully we are reaching some sort of end to this.) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:50, 29 April 2026 (UTC)- All different than the IP of what we are looking at, and they have no lurking TPAs. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 00:18, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Gotcha, then I will strike my comment to prevent accidental reverting. Thank you for checking as they had made color adjustments in a few edits prior to some of ~2026-20262-76's edits, but were apparently just unlucky. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:05, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- All different than the IP of what we are looking at, and they have no lurking TPAs. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 00:18, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- FYI ~2026-22057-27 links to that TA. Blue Sonnet (talk) 01:34, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Whoever this is, it seems like they just mass target football templates. Probably need to go through Category:Europe association football templates by country and sub-categories like Category:UEFA Women's Championship squad navigational boxes by competition, Category:Africa Cup of Nations squad navigational boxes by nation, Category:FIFA Women's World Cup squad navigational boxes by nation to clean this all up. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:40, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've reverted one of their edits given this is possibly a violation of color contrast guidelines on Wikipedia Galaxybeing (talk) 04:39, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- This is concerning. Have these accounts been warmed for this? Kingsmasher678 (talk) 00:14, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- Okay. All, but seven of ~2026-20262-76's current Template edits have been reverted with those seven not being color edits. There are some article edits that were only to mess with colors, though, so there are still some reverts left, but the template ones that kicked off this discussion are resolved. (@Kingsmasher678: Do you know of anyone else doing reverts or is it possibly just us?) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:50, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- A couple others have jumped in from time to time. I will dedicate some time to the other accounts ronight Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Super Goku V I am switching to a revert all strategy in template space FYI. Simply too much to do other wise, you were correct about that. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 21:29, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- Ah, gotcha. I just wasn't sure if it was just us and if it was better to move this discussion elsewhere. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:08, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- A couple others have jumped in from time to time. I will dedicate some time to the other accounts ronight Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- LTA Discussion
- Is it worth considering a LTA designation for this groups of accounts? It goes back at least 2 years and there seems to be at minimum 10-15 accounts involved. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 14:15, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
- My understanding is that we tend not to create LTA pages anymore, due to Wikipedia:Beans and Wikipedia:Deny recognition. Blue Sonnet (talk) 16:22, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
- Given the amount of accounts involved; shouldn't this be under SPI..? Vestrian24Bio 10:20, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
- Potentially. It is definitely a good chuck of users so far discovered. (34) --Super Goku V (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
Disruptive editing and personal attacks by User:EconDecExpert2025
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- EconDecExpert2025 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I am reporting User:EconDecExpert2025 for persistent disruptive editing and personal attacks on the Baylor University page.
The user is operating as a Single Purpose Account to force non-consensus material into the article. They have ignored the Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle, ignored a Final Warning on their Talk page, and are now using edit summaries to launch personal attacks, accusing multiple editors of "anti-LGBTQ+ bias" for upholding WP:WEIGHT and WP:CONSENSUS.
We always strive to assume good faith and recognize the importance of the LGBTQ+ community and the events discussed. However, our goal is to prevent the university's history section from turning into a blog post of daily occurrences. Similar events happen nearly daily at colleges across the world; documenting every minor event violates WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM.
We tried to resolve things within the Talk page , but the user has decided to ignore it, revert the article, and attack other users . As this account is showing a clear "battleground" mentality and refuses to engage in civil discussion, I request an immediate block. Mango0521 (talk) 15:26, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- This seems to have been escalated unnecessarily quickly to here. You left a notice on the user in question's talk page saying "You have also ignored the Talk page and repeated reverts despite warnings and talk page consensus. This is your final warning. Do not revert again." What warnings were they given previously? Morwen (talk) 15:50, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Morwen: Thank you for looking into this. I understand the concern about the speed of escalation. I moved to a final warning because the user was not just edit warring, but was using edit summaries to launch personal attacks, such as this diff where they accused multiple editors of "anti-LGBTQ+ bias" to bypass consensus.
- The user was reverting multiple editors (not just myself) while completely bypassing the Talk page discussion, even after being ask to work through this on the talk page. Per WP:NPA and WP:BATTLEGROUND, I felt a firm warning was necessary to stop the immediate disruption and the characterization of other editors' motives. I will certainly follow a more gradual warning template path in the future, but the immediate goal was to address the personal accusations being used to shut down policy-based discussion. ~~~~ Mango0521 (talk) 15:58, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Shall I take that to mean "none"? Morwen (talk) 15:59, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Morwen: Correct, I did not issue Level 1-3 templates first. As a relatively new reporter of disruptive behavior, I may have misapplied the escalation ladder, for which I apologize.
- However, I issued the final warning because the user's conduct shifted from a content dispute to making personal attacks in edit summaries (diff), accusing editors of "anti-LGBTQ+ bias" to bypass consensus. I believed that level of incivility and the "battleground" approach by a Single Purpose Account warranted an immediate and firm stop. I will ensure I follow the standard 1-4 escalation path for simple edit warring in the future. ~~~~
- Mango0521 (talk) 16:04, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- First, you did not provide diffs supporting your accusations, Mango0521. You inserted links. And I agree with Morwen, unless we skipped something, you just jumped over many instances of warning and mediation. Lastly, even in EconDecExpert's edit summary, I fail to see any PA. Beware of WP:BOOMERANG. CoryGlee 16:02, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- @CoryGlee: @Morwen: I apologize for the confusion and my lack of experience with the reporting process. The intend here was pure. I am still learning how to properly generate diffs and follow the warning hierarchy. I truly appreciate the guidance.
- To clarify the behavior that led to my concern, here is the diff of the edit summary I referred to: (Direct Diff Link)
- My intent was not to skip mediation, but rather a reaction to what I perceived as a "battleground" approach by a new account. I see now that I should have followed the standard Level 1-3 warning path and engaged in more formal mediation first. I will step back from the ANI report and allow the admins to decide if any action is needed, or if the report should be closed so we can return to the Talk page. ~~~~
- Mango0521 (talk) 16:07, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Btw think you've linked to the wrong diff here as it seems to be the difference between two different pages, although it does indeed show the edit summary you're complaining about. Morwen (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- :Just as an update, a third editor has now reverted the material in question, citing the same page consensus. This confirms that multiple editors are concerned about the inclusion of this content and the user's refusal to engage on the Talk page. I will continue to defer to the community's guidance on the best path forward. ~~~~ Mango0521 (talk) 16:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Quick question if I may - are you using AI, LLM's or machine translation to write your posts here? I ask because your posts seem to follow the same format that AI issue, as does your recent article. You're also using nowiki for each of your comments here, which is unusual. Blue Sonnet (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I simply have several templates saved in notepad. That is likely what you're seeing. Mango0521 (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- A Notepad template does not explain the sourcing issues in the aforementioned article. From this revision:
Its clubhouse and facilities serve as a frequent venue for state-level political fundraisers and civic summits.
- The URL this is cited to, https://communityimpact.com/austin/georgetown/, does not seem to exist, and the references to it in archive.org are also invalid ("Orange indicates that the URL was not found (4xx)."). Google returns no results for the title "Georgetown development continues westward expansion" or even for the name "Liesbeth Sowers." (or for that matter "Lisbeth Sowers", "Lizbeth Sowers", or other potential typos; there is a Liesbeth Somers but she doesn't appear to have ever written about Georgetown.)widely recognized as the most affluent residential development in Williamson County
- First of all, this only cites one source. The URL for that source is the top-level URL https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/. The article "Wealthiest Neighborhoods in Central Texas" by Bill Hethcock does not seem to exist, and while Hethcock is a real writer for this newspaper, if you search site:bizjournals.com "hethcock" "cimarron hills" you get nothing.- [Nolan]
Ryan is a long-time resident of the Georgetown area, maintaining a residence within the Cimarron Hills community.
- The article it is sourced to does not mention Cimarron Hills and does not say he is a "long-time resident of Georgetown" -- in fact, it says he is "now a resident of Georgetown," which implies the opposite.
- So I'd really advise you to be more honest here since this is approaching a WP:BOOMERANG situation. Gnomingstuff (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have to agree, it wouldn't explain having nowiki tags either side of every Talk page comment either.
- The original draft looked like this, which looks like something that took ChatGPT maybe a minute to generate - there are various Wikipedia:AISIGNS both here and in the later history.
- I also note that this was moved to draft twice due to lack of sources and then promotional wording, something AI is known to produce. Each time, you moved it back to mainspace without AFC review. Blue Sonnet (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Seems to be a dead link from the news cite I had used, may have been archived on their end. I can work on updating that page at a later date and sort that out.
- I do apologies if you do not like my usual formatting. That's just how my brain works as an engineer. I like bullet points.
- Could we focus on the issue I tried to get help on? If you feel there is no further action needed here, we can close this thread. It looks like another admin took care of the edit and the user that was giving several of us trouble has backed off. So, thank you all for your help there.
- I'm simply trying to do what is in the best interest of wiki, and the pages I care most about. Thanks again. Mango0521 (talk) 17:55, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'm really sorry, but this doesn't explain what happened with those three sources from three different websites. We need to figure out what went wrong and why, so we can prevent it happening again in the future.
- If it's just AI use, you only need to confirm you've been using it and pledge not to use it going forwards.
- If you found those sources manually, then we might have a bigger issue with your ability to verify sources - this needs to be addressed before you return to editing, because it could easily happen again.
- Can you please let us know how you found the three sources in Gnomingstuff's post and what steps you took to verify their accuracy to each of the claims? Blue Sonnet (talk) 18:01, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- There actually seem to be issues with every single source in that revision:
- Reference 4, supposedly ""Aerosmith drummer Joey Kramer puts his Georgetown estate on the market" from the Dallas Morning News, doesn't seem to exist either. Google searching the Dallas Morning News domain for mentions of Joey Kramer only returns three articles, none of which are remotely related.
- Reference 5 leads to a top-level page. The Master Plan does seem to be real, but not at that URL. There are maps of trails on pages 74 and 189 here and here respectively. It's a 199-page unsearchable document so I can't confirm for sure whether Cimarron Hills specifically is mentioned, or which of these trails exists and which is just proposed.
- I note that you mentioned that the "dead links should be fixed" but the problem here is how they even got here in the first place and how text was derived from sources that do not seem to exist. (The problem is also the AI-style synthesis, promotional tone, etc.)
- Gnomingstuff (talk) 18:24, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- There actually seem to be issues with every single source in that revision:
- I'm really sorry, but this doesn't explain what happened with those three sources from three different websites. We need to figure out what went wrong and why, so we can prevent it happening again in the future.
- A Notepad template does not explain the sourcing issues in the aforementioned article. From this revision:
- I simply have several templates saved in notepad. That is likely what you're seeing. Mango0521 (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Quick question if I may - are you using AI, LLM's or machine translation to write your posts here? I ask because your posts seem to follow the same format that AI issue, as does your recent article. You're also using nowiki for each of your comments here, which is unusual. Blue Sonnet (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Shall I take that to mean "none"? Morwen (talk) 15:59, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Note: EconDecExpert2025 blocked for 24 hours for edit warring. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:39, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I get the sense that Mango0521 should also receive a block for LLM use, given the evidence we have that seems to point to them patently lying about it. (Speaking as someone who constantly copy-pastes from Notepad to Wikipedia for my Arbitration stuff, I don't buy for a second that one would have nowiki tags unless they were deliberately inserted in to begin with, and I struggle to see a legitimate reason to add one in to something meant for Wikipedia articles.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v MUSHROOM 04:39, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Additionally, the first revision for their userpage includes nonexistent userboxes. Which could be a hallucination (ex). (note: there could be a perfectly good explanation for this, I've reworked my entire patrol workflow to look for agents. But it's a datapoint.) MetalBreaksAndBends (talk) 20:20, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I get the sense that Mango0521 should also receive a block for LLM use, given the evidence we have that seems to point to them patently lying about it. (Speaking as someone who constantly copy-pastes from Notepad to Wikipedia for my Arbitration stuff, I don't buy for a second that one would have nowiki tags unless they were deliberately inserted in to begin with, and I struggle to see a legitimate reason to add one in to something meant for Wikipedia articles.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v MUSHROOM 04:39, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
SPA with an offensive username
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
After nominating an article for deletion, a new editor with an offensive username joined the discussion. I want to believe that their goal is to contribute in a good-faith manner, but I strongly suspect that this is someone's deliberate behaviour from a scrutiny-evading sock account. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:44, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- For the avoidance of doubt, the editor in question is Kiril's mom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). @Kiril Simeonovski, you forgot to notify this user of this thread; I've done so now. – Epicgenius (talk) 12:57, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:59, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
Ramblersen and copyvio
I requested a CCI for User:Ramblersen and User:Ramblersen2 in May 2024, which was eventually only opened in May 2025: Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Ramblersen. As the copyvios come via translations, they largely remained undetected. Checking a new creation by them from today, Frederik Thuresen, I see that they are still creating similar copyright violations though.
Source (translated automatically in Chrome):
- "[...]when the militia was reorganized in 1664 he became city colonel directly under the king. In 1663 and 1664 he participated in the organization of the city fire department, and when this brought him into conflict with the city council, he received the king's support. Finally, in 1672 he was a member of the commission that was to set reasonable prices for meat, bread and beer."
Article
- "When the militia was reorganized in 1664 he became city colonel directly under the king. In 1663 and 1664 he also participated in the organization of the city's fire corps, When this brought him into conflict with the city council, he received the king's support. Finally, in 1672 he was a member of a commission that was to set reasonable prices for meat, bread and beer."
Source:
- " In 1660, he helped apply for the convening of the Estates' Meeting"
Article:
- "In 1660, he helped apply for the convening of the Assembly of the Estates' Meeting."
Source:
- "[...]handed over to the royal courtier the bourgeois proposal for the incorporation of the hereditary government. [...] the king showed him his grace by giving him his picture in diamonds with a gold chain and later gave him a carriage. Moreover, the king not only made use of him in the municipal council, but T. was also appointed assessor in the military college. "
Article:
- "[...]handed over to the rigshofmester' Joachim Gersdorff the bourgeois proposal for the incorporation of the hereditary government. [...] the king showed him his grace by giving him his picture in diamonds with a gold chain. He was also presented with a carriage by the king. Thuresen was also appointed assessor in the Krigskollegiet."
Other recent articles seem to have the same issues: Niels Gersdorff, from earlier this month.
- "The case was initiated by a complaint from a procurator in Helsingør who believed himself to have been wronged by G. and consequently brought an action for damages. The Supreme Court recognized the validity of the complaint, but G. addressed the king directly, claiming that the issue was outside the Supreme Court's jurisdiction as it was an administrative matter. Despite a very urgent warning from Justitiarius Didrik Sechmann , the king followed his favorite view of the case and declared the verdict invalid."
Article:
- "The case was triggered by a complaint from a lawyer in Helsingør who believed he had been wronged by Gersdorff and consequently filed a claim for damages. The Supreme Court recognized the validity of the complaint, but Gersdorff addressed the king directly, claiming that the issue was outside the Supreme Court's jurisdiction as it was an administrative matter. Against the explicit advice of Chief Justice, Didrik Sechmann, the king followed Gersdorff's view of the case and declared the verdict invalid."
It's not much use that older copyvios will eventually be removed if we allow new ones to be added by the same editor... Fram (talk) 15:04, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
Reply: It's not that I can't see that I uploaded the Frederik Thuresen article a bit prematurely. I should obviously have reworked the "public offices" section further. But when you are down to picking out a short sentence such as "In 1660, he helped apply for the convening of the Estates' Meeting", ignoring what comes after it, It feel as if you are very determined to make the problem appear bigger than it is. But still, it's not that I don't see that I should have deleted or rewritten a couple of the other sentences further. As for the Niels Gersdorf example, it's a bit difficult to mention an episode like that without staying pretty close to the source when further information couldnn't be found elsewhere. The episode is mentioned in a number of sources with almost the same wording but I was for instance not able to find the name of the lawyer or what the problem was. I would therefore have thought it was enough to rewrite it to the extent that I did and provice the source. As for the investigation you requested, I never heard more about it (no warnings or other comments on my talk page and I couldn't see that any articles had been deleted). I have therefore assumed that there wasn't a general problem with the quality of my contributions.Ramblersen2 (talk) 17:33, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Fram, @Ramblersen2, when the CCI was opened I said, "
Non-admins, if you find copyright issues after May 2024, please inform an admin.
" Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything to do outside of blocking Ramblersen. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 16:20, 30 April 2026 (UTC)- Pinging @MER-C; The CCI will need more edits, which may need his non-public surveyor. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 16:23, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Populated. MER-C 18:21, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Pinging @MER-C; The CCI will need more edits, which may need his non-public surveyor. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 16:23, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
Sourced content removal by User:InfernoHues
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A sourced statement was removed from the article Bahun by User:InfernoHues [HERE] along with the sources. Could editors please review the removal and restore it if it complies with sourcing and content policies, or explain the concern? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-26210-80 (talk)
- You are not eligible to discuss castes related to South Asia. See Wikipedia:Contentious topics/South Asia. --Yamla (talk) 10:35, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I didn't knew it but please can you look at it yourself?
- He literally added his own view in this [contribution] which isn't even mentioned in any source of that article. It looks vandalism. I may not be eligible to look into it but you certainly are. ~2026-26210-80 (talk) 10:38, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Again, you cannot be part of this discussion in any way. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 11:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I removed the line because none of the sources actually said what the line said. The line I added wasn't my "own view" but was in the source. I'd suggest people read the talk page of that article. InfernoHues (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'm on my computer now and can explain more. Bahuns are a caste group currently found in Nepal. The article lead said that they originated in India. I responded to an edit request that wanted to say they originated in Nepal. The sources they provided weren't very good, so I engaged in a 23 comment long discussion with them to get better sources.
- During the course of that discussion, I looked at some of the sources cited in the lead and changed/removed text to match them. At the end of that discussion I got a good source supporting the Nepal-origin viewpoint, however by that point I had reported that editor (Manasludamase) to AE because of the constant aspersions they cast against me. I told them I would look at their source once the AE request was finished, which hasn't happened yet.
- This editor, who reported me to ANI appears to have a pro-Indian origin viewpoint, and reported me because of the text changes/removals I mentioned above. They have never even discussed on the talk page prior to this report. Incidentally, they did provide a good source that supports their view on the talk page after they made this report (their edits to talk have been reverted).
- I will say that it's incredibly frustrating to have to go to two noticeboards over answering an edit request. Apologies if this isn't allowed, but I'm pinging the admins who reviewed my AE request: Asilvering, Toadspike, Valereee.
- InfernoHues (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- The TA has already been blocked for 24 hours, and I would assume that if conduct doesn't drastically improve, the block gun will be switched for one with a higher caliber. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah that's true. Apologies for going on a rant, I was just frustrated. InfernoHues (talk) 18:50, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- The TA has already been blocked for 24 hours, and I would assume that if conduct doesn't drastically improve, the block gun will be switched for one with a higher caliber. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
Possible OpenClaw bot on Talk:Mary Baker Eddy
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Mary Baker Eddy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Muttikins (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user appears to be using an LLM bot to argue with editors on Talk:Mary Baker Eddy. I could write more here, but their contribution history is short and it is easy to see what is going on. NotBartEhrman (talk) 10:38, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a TomWikiAssist-like bot, this just looks like typical LLM bludgeoning to me. Sarsenet•he/they•(talk) 11:34, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Most of these are from August 2025 when OpenClaw didn't exist, although I agree that they look like AI. Gnomingstuff (talk) 15:25, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Indeffed for disruptive LLM bludgeoning. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:29, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
User:Hillsy hills - Inappropriate userboxes, political trolling
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hillsy hills (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This editor added a userbox to their user page reading "This user believes that wikipedia is a cucked socialist hellhole." When it was removed by someone else per WP:POLEMIC, they added it back with a personal attack in the edit summary. I removed it a second time, and they then added a userbox reading "This user believes that wikipedia is a blessed socialist heavenpeak." They haven't responded to any of the editors who expressed concern about this on their talk page. They also made some strange posts complaining about "satanic worshippers": . Day Creature (talk) 18:18, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- You don't specifically mention the edit summary, Day Creature. That's enough reason in itself to disinvite Hillsy hills, and then there are the other edits mentioned. Blocked indefinitely as not here to create an encyclopedia. Bishonen | tålk 18:40, 30 April 2026 (UTC).
- Ugh, yeah that edit summary alone would've been more than enough reason for me to show them the exit door... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:08, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
Oliver QueenG
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The user Oliver QueenG (talk · contribs) keeps violating copyrights persistently with close paraphrasing. Since most of the edits are deleted now, I will speak about the only example left that of course needs to be revdeleted.
In 1960, humans first reached Challenger Deep using a U.S. Navy submersible, and in 2012, film director and explorer James Cameron made a solo dive to the same location.
Humans descended into the Challenger Deep in 1960 inside a U.S. Navy submersible, and film director and explorer James Cameron made a solo trip in 2012.
The user has been doing this since the beginning. They were notified three times and continued. I reported them at AIV on April 28 and the person was not blocked because "edits are not vandalism", despite the fact I made it clear this person is violating copyrights. Since the person was not blocked on time, it has been seen as a pass for them to continue doing it. Tbhotch™ (CC BY-SA 4.0) 04:13, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I count four warnings and five copyright violations after receiving all those warnings. Blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 04:40, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Note: AIV is not the best place to report things that need explanation and investigation. It’s primarily for obvious severe vandalism. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 04:44, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
Chiswick Chap
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Exhibiting WP:OWN. ~2026-81085-3 (talk) 18:19, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- There's not enough information here to take action. What specific articles? Where are the specific diffs that show this behaviour? What happened when you first reached out to the user to discuss it with them, prior to bringing them here? Without that information, you should expect this to be closed without action. --Yamla (talk) 18:22, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Seconding Yamla in that much more information and details are required before we can begin investigating. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:05, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- (Non-admin comment) Okay so, I did some digging into the TA's Contributions, and I think that the supposed ownership is on articles relating to yoga. , ,, among others. TheClocksAlwaysTurn (The Clockworks) (contribs) 19:40, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I reverted some changes to a few yoga articles (as indicated above) that seemed to me unhelpful, explaining why in my edit comments. I put a friendly note on the TA's talk page to the effect that edit comments would be helpful, to which they replied brusquely. When they then repeated their edits without any attempt at consensus, I reverted those again, with formal warnings to the TA. If there is any discussion within WikiProject Yoga, I'll take part and abide by whatever consensus is reached. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:41, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Mr. Chap has done nothing outside our Policies and Guidelines. - Walter Still not in the Epstein Files Ego 20:55, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Unrelated, but your signature hit me like a 2 ton brick going Mach 7. TheClocksAlwaysTurn (The Clockworks) (contribs) 21:04, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Mr. Chap has done nothing outside our Policies and Guidelines. - Walter Still not in the Epstein Files Ego 20:55, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I reverted some changes to a few yoga articles (as indicated above) that seemed to me unhelpful, explaining why in my edit comments. I put a friendly note on the TA's talk page to the effect that edit comments would be helpful, to which they replied brusquely. When they then repeated their edits without any attempt at consensus, I reverted those again, with formal warnings to the TA. If there is any discussion within WikiProject Yoga, I'll take part and abide by whatever consensus is reached. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:41, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
Reporting User:Nicker67
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Nicker67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Account is clearly a vandalism only account with an unacceptable username, meant to portray the infamous racial slur. JLN2026 (talk) 03:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Generally, WP:AIV and WP:UAA are the better venues for things like this, ANI is for more complex problems. I have just checked and the account is only at a Level 1 warning (with only 2 edits), so it's not suitable for WP:AIV yet. If you think the username is inappropriate, WP:UAA may be the more appropriate venue in future, and in fact, someone already started a UAA before you opened this thread MolecularPilot Talk 03:45, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Nature of edit on Sunfeast
Regarding Sunfeast that lacks significant independent coverage and continuous efforts primarily from two editors showing an impression of WP:COI.
The topic was redirected to ITC Limited for the same reason by User:Praxidicae for the same reason, later the redirect was removed by author and added the content back. However, the redirect was restored by user:quinntropy. Again the redirect has been removed by creator now and put the content back.
I want to point out this incident here before any action. AlphaCore talk 10:52, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Pinging: @Praxidicae @Quinntropy AlphaCore talk 10:53, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- AlphaCore, When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. It's not clear if you have tried to discuss this with the editor in question (Blazeboy124 (talk · contribs)) since your only interaction with them was asking what their relation was to another editor. -- Reconrabbit 13:39, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
I want to point out this incident here before any action.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this? ANI is for chronic behavioural issues, where other methods have been tried and failed (e.g. talking to the other person, COI noticeboard).- On looking at their Talk page I'm not seeing anyone who's just tried to explain things to them beyond boilerplate template warnings & your single comment from early March - they've also not edited for nearly a week and no-one has broached COI with them.
- That said, I suspect they're continuing to use AI after admitting to it and being asked to stop.
- The level of English used in my first diff is very different to their Talk page comments Blue-Sonnet 05:36, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Today's main page FA article seems politically motivated, contentious and not WP:NPOV
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please see Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Main_page_featured_article_Crusading_Movement_is_a_contentious_topic_that_doesn't_follow_WP:NPOV - I'm really concerned about what it means that a one-sided article like this got on the front page during a war against Iran that is being promoted as a crusade, and I think articles about the crusades may be being used for political manipulation of Wikipedia. They're like proxies for current politics. Lijil (talk) 06:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Replying there to avoid fragmenting the conversation! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 06:57, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Rillet, Front App, Inc., Diapason, MrMed AfD manipulation
I was going through these archives to find sus behavior and I found this. And so the buck stops (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and DesmondMoines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are possibly part of UPE sock farm. They used DesmondMoines to AfD and once the article was reviewed by @SunloungerFrog:, User:And so the buck stops closed it even though DesmondMoines is not blocked and it is perfectly fine for any one to start an AfD. The article was originally started by another SPA LegenProst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I'd recommend to check and possibly block these accounts for socking and reopen the AfD. Thank you. ~2026-23925-52 (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- Just to note, I have un-marked Rillet as reviewed, so it will be back in the NPP queue again. Cheers, SunloungerFrog (talk) 10:28, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- It certainly seems premature and presumptuous for Buck to close the AfD as speedykeep on such spurious grounds as vaguely accusing the nominator of "bad faith," but it wouldn't seem to indicate that they're part of a sock network; what would be the benefit in creating the AfD in the first place?
- Buck's other activity also seems to be in largely unrelated topics, which makes it unlikely (but not impossible) for them to be a SPA/UPE.
- the Rillet article itself does seem to be the sort of all-too-common corporate article dross based on total WP:CORPTRIV but I'm too lazy to do the WP:BEFORE for an AfD nomination right now. Athanelar (talk) 19:44, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've nominated the article for AfD. msk 22:42, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- The plot thickens. In the last couple days, And so the buck stops (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has closed or relisted several AfDs. I'm sorry, but an editor with fewer than 700 edits just does not have the experience to be closing AfDs. Ravenswing 23:23, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- Ok, LegenProst returned after a long period of inactivity to request deletion under G7. This was clearly a bad faith use of G7 because the AfD had a clear consensus to delete, and they tagged it as G7, so they can recreate it once this scruitny is over. I noticed similar behavior from Slicak (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Diapason (company). I think the two accounts are likely connected.
- MSK, Athanelar, Ravenswing Regarding this Speedy Keep tactic, I think it is becoming common. Most blatant example is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Front App, Inc., one UPE created the article, other AfDed it, Significa liberdade reviewed it, and then it was withdrawn (UPEs were playing among themselves) - this need to be brought back to AfD again. Also, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MrMed, where a newbie !voted keep citing WP:CORPTRIV or WP:NEWSORGINDIA but Zuck28 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to speedy keep it. ~2026-24493-37 (talk) 16:47, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
- I just want to note that MrMed was originally reviewed by Umakant Bhalerao (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who was blocked by @Extraordinary Writ: for UPE. Probably, there is a deeper connection here. ~2026-24493-37 (talk) 16:52, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
- You're accusing me of being a UPE based on a singular AfD? You're free to check every one of my 500 or so edits and see if there is any promo. Calling that the "most blatant example" is very baseless and rude. Dragging up something over a month old to ANI, with the article in question already having been deleted is just frivolous. Had you left a message on my talk page pointing out my mistake I probably would have nominated the article for deletion again. Are you also accusing User:Significa liberdade of being in a sock farm too? No comment on the others named here though. Please actually check what people are doing before grouping them together. SecretSpectre (talk) 05:25, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've opened an AfD for Front App, inc. and withdrawn it because I believed I was mistaken. I've nominated over a dozen articles for deletion and I make mistakes sometimes. The AfD I closed was my own, which was perfectly within the criteria for speedy keep. Now that I have more experience I probably would have continued the deletion since the sources given by the author was WP:CORPTRIV. In any case what I've done is different from what the other mentioned editors did because they were going around accusing people of bad faith which I didn't. SecretSpectre (talk) 23:25, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
Mild, likely good-faith, but persistent unsourced editing by SailorChibiMoon797
SailorChibiMoon797 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I have warned SailorChibiMoon797 several times about making unsourced edits to articles, especially changing retired actors and actress to not retired incorrectly (1) and inactive to active incorrectly (12) or both (12). Several times this has been correct, like in this edit where they correctly noticed there was no source for Patricia Ja Lee's retirement. However, oftentimes in these same edits they have said that inactive actors were active, like in this edit where an actress that has not acted in ten years was marked as active. This is likely because they seem to think that not being retired is the same thing as being active. While I notified them that it is not (at least as far as I know), they continued to do it. Most simply, though, they just add run-of-the-mill unsourced content (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and more). They have been blocked before for this same purpose, with the admin (Ad Orientem) saying I don't know if your editing is deliberately disruptive or if this is a serious case of WP:CIR. For the moment I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. But you need to tighten up your editing because I think you are currently heading for an indefinite block.
. They had received a total of three warnings before their block, and have since gotten 10 more, not including my own. I do still maintain that they are editing in good faith, but they do not seem to be changing their behavior despite numerous warnings. 𝓕𝓵𝓸𝓫𝓵𝓲𝓷 (Talk to me! · My contribs) 15:17, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Pinging @SailorChibiMoon797 per policy and notifying on talkpage 𝓕𝓵𝓸𝓫𝓵𝓲𝓷 (Talk to me! · My contribs) 15:28, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Indefinitely blocked from article space. There is a wall of messages and warning on their talk page going back ten years with only a single response from them in that entire time frame. I agree that this is probably not bad faith editing. But it is disruptive and other editors are being forced to clean up after them. This has gone on for too long and the more or less total lack of communication is simply not acceptable. If/when they acknowledge these issues and discuss remedies, I am prepared to lift the block. I also would have no objection to any other admin doing so under those circumstances. But until then, this needs to stop. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:00, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Potential Block Evasion by ~2026-26479-60
Hello! I noticed while patrolling that a new account (~2026-26479-60 (talk · contribs)) was displaying the exact same behavior on the article for The Beat with Ari Melber as an account previously banned for block evasion (~2026-78099-3 (talk · contribs) and ~2026-59043-7 (talk · contribs)). I'm not sure how exactly to format these diffs in this message, so I'll make them a short list.
*most recent *second most recent *oldest
Thank you. ⚠︎ ArkadenBoden ⚠︎ (talk) 17:24, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- TAIV shows the first two accounts share an IP, but the last TA is too old so I can't retrieve the data.
- @ArkadenBoden, you can report future suspected sockpuppetry to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations. Admins have specific tools to investigate socks and you don't need to notify the suspected account. Blue-Sonnet 18:01, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Whoops... I'll keep that in mind! I'd forgotten that a sockpuppet generally refers to an account created to be used abusively while hiding one's identity in general, instead of just an account that is used to rally fake support for the puppetmaster/that there wasn't just one type of sock. Apologies.
- Much love, rock on!
- ⚠︎ ArkadenBoden ⚠︎ (talk) 18:06, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- No probs! They're were a few others but they'll be inactive so I've just reverted their edits myself - an admin can deal with the blocking side of things. Blue-Sonnet 18:12, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Elizea Guadalupe López Sánchez
Elizea Guadalupe López Sánchez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Not contributing in English, repeatedly moving Infighting in the Sinaloa Cartel to Spanish title and adding Spanish-language text. Has been notified twice that this is English Wikipedia. Wracking talk! 19:05, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Done, although you did not notify them about this discussion... GiantSnowman 19:10, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman, I hit an edit conflict due to Materialscientist's message, so mine didn't post. It took me a minute as I was putting together a Spanish translation. Is it better to notify the user before posting to ANI? Wracking talk! 19:12, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Gaming for ECP
Lechtkaeaeia has made over 700 newcomer task copyedits since joining wikipedia last month and effectively gamed their way into editing contentious topic articles that are under ECR restriction, for example their recent edit corresponds to an extended confirmed restricted area, namely Indian military history, of which they have been alerted too, the alert also explicitly prohibits gaming ECR. THEZDRX (User) | (Contact) 12:32, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've just had to revert this seriously POV edit of theirs on an ECP article. I'm going to look at the alleged gaming now and I will pull EC if the OP's claims are correct. Black Kite (talk) 12:40, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, this is a borderline one. They've carried on making gnoming edits after reaching ECP (that was reached nearly a month ago) and they haven't really - until the edit I pointed out above - caused a problem with POV as far as I can see. Thoughts from others? Black Kite (talk) 12:46, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Black Kite@ZDRX Hello, I just have been following the new editor home page links, as it guided me along and a few other subjects I like. Have I made a mistake? Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Were you doing this for the specific purpose of obtaining the ability to edit in restricted topic areas? 331dot (talk) 14:55, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- @331dot I was just editing as per my home page options like I said, and I dont think I was purposefully doing this or that to edit in controversial articles. I was trying to edit the pages that I thought I can edit productively and since it enriches my curiosity as well. Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 11:03, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Were you doing this for the specific purpose of obtaining the ability to edit in restricted topic areas? 331dot (talk) 14:55, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Looking at the some of their recent edits on non CTOP articles, they are good edits, and match the edit summary given. But the two highlighted edits on Sanyal and the Godhra train burning are lacking and concerning.
- For Sanyal, the edit summary is that they have now added secondary sources to support text that they had previously added but was reverted. Unfortunately the text they added which seems to be a review of some of Sanyal's books were cited to the books themselves, while the secondary references which are reviews of the books were added to the end of the section after unrelated text. While not the worst on it's own, and is much just a new-editor error, it being on Sanyal's article is a problem due to his works being heterodox and how he relates to Hindutva politics in India, as the reviews used were from Indian outlets that align with Sanyal politically.
- For the Godhra train burning, again the issue may come down to just being too new an editor to see that such a BOLD edit, is not a great idea in the CTOP. The sourcing provided for the changes is good, so it shows a recognition of what is needed to support the changes, even if I disagree with changing the line of the contested origin of the fire to just parrot the courts.
- Overall, unless others provide more such edits that raise eyebrows, I would suggest a reminder on CTOP and a bit of coaching for future editing. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:22, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've had a double check of the sources added to the Sanyal article based on comment from Toddy1. And unfortunately, I agree with Vanamonde93 that the articles do not support the text as added. I would still like to think that Lechtkaeaeia can be guided to correcting some of the editing behaviour, but if others are also raising concerns of LLM generation in these areas, then it may not be such an easy correction. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:36, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Black Kite@ZDRX Hello, I just have been following the new editor home page links, as it guided me along and a few other subjects I like. Have I made a mistake? Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, this is a borderline one. They've carried on making gnoming edits after reaching ECP (that was reached nearly a month ago) and they haven't really - until the edit I pointed out above - caused a problem with POV as far as I can see. Thoughts from others? Black Kite (talk) 12:46, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Other than by using common sense, it's never been clear to me how editors know that the article they are editing is covered by CT/SA related ECR i.e. Indian military history or caste-related topics in South Asia. It seems more difficult to see what is covered by ECR for CT/SA than it is for the Arab-Israeli conflict CT. Use of the contentious topics/talk notice template seems quite sparse, so talk pages don't get placed in Category:Wikipedia pages subject to the extended confirmed restriction. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:38, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Is there a formalised process as to when to add the CTOP notice? If not, it may be an idea to just go through all that relate to the topics caste or IMH, and get them all tagged as soon as possible. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:50, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- If CT/SA is anything like the Arab-Israeli conflict CT in terms of talk page templating, the answer to the formalized process question is definitely not. And going through all that relates to the topics is easier said than done. The length of paths traversing the category graph that cross the boundary exiting a CT vary a lot and can be quite short e.g. 3 steps from Category:Caste system in India already takes you to Shania Twain. So, the boundaries of CTs seem to be quite wiggly. I think for the Arab-Israeli conflict CT what happened in practice was that the low hanging fruit, obvious stuff, was templated maybe en masse, and gaps have been filled in over the years. It's still an ongoing process. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:43, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Is there a formalised process as to when to add the CTOP notice? If not, it may be an idea to just go through all that relate to the topics caste or IMH, and get them all tagged as soon as possible. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:50, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
Another problem with Lechtkaeaeia's edits is that he/she is using AI to generate them - for example: the text added in this edit was 72% AI-generated. Vanamonde93 reverted it on the grounds that it needs secondary sources that support it. So Lechtkaeaeia added it again with some book reviews as secondary sources, but when Vanamonde93 checked they found that the sources did not support the content.-- Toddy1 (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- The lack of coherent response from the editor is concerning. I think this editor needs to cease all mainspace editing and find a mentor. Lechtkaeaeia You must take this thread seriously. Failure to address the concerns here may force people to support an indef block on you. Shankargb (talk) 02:18, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Shankargb @Cdjp1 A mentor could be useful, and how to get one? Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 11:41, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Toddy1 I recently installed grammarly and was using it, it is helpful to me since English is not my first language. If this is not allowed here, I can stop. Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 11:38, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Grammarly is only helpful if your English is good enough to judge whether the suggestions Grammarly makes are correct or not. A lot of Grammarly's suggestions are actually wrong. And that's apart from the fact that Grammarly now has an AI function that should never be used in Wikipedia at all. --bonadea contributions talk 12:18, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I recommend Plain Words: A Guide to the Use of English by Ernest Gowers (you can get it from internet bookshops) - it does not matter which edition. If you write yourself, you will learn from doing it, and other editors can correct errors. Sometimes they will ask you what you meant. But often they will check your citations to check they understood you correctly.
- Grammarly is only helpful if your English is good enough to judge whether the suggestions Grammarly makes are correct or not. A lot of Grammarly's suggestions are actually wrong. And that's apart from the fact that Grammarly now has an AI function that should never be used in Wikipedia at all. --bonadea contributions talk 12:18, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Using Grammarly means that your sentences look like AI-generated text, because Grammarly is writing them, not you. Please stop using it. The one thing Grammarly is useful for (on Wikipedia) is detecting AI-generated text.
- When you make edits to Wikipedia, base them on what reliable sources say (i.e find sources 1st, write 2nd, not the other way round like now). Do not write what you think is true - like it must have been a muslim mob burning the train (see below) - text on Wikipedia needs to be clearly supported by citations - so if the source does not mention that the criminals were muslim, your text should not either, even though you believe that they must have been.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:37, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Toddy1@Bonadea I will immediately stop using Grammarly and will be much more careful in checking my citations before making any changes. Can I please be paired with a mentor too? Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Lechtkaeaeia, when you go to Special:Homepage, does it list a mentor? CMD (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, I see a mentor! I will try to reach out to them and work with them from now on. Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Lechtkaeaeia, when you go to Special:Homepage, does it list a mentor? CMD (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Toddy1@Bonadea I will immediately stop using Grammarly and will be much more careful in checking my citations before making any changes. Can I please be paired with a mentor too? Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- When you make edits to Wikipedia, base them on what reliable sources say (i.e find sources 1st, write 2nd, not the other way round like now). Do not write what you think is true - like it must have been a muslim mob burning the train (see below) - text on Wikipedia needs to be clearly supported by citations - so if the source does not mention that the criminals were muslim, your text should not either, even though you believe that they must have been.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:37, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
Lechtkaeaeia clearly is not basing his/her edits on stuff he/she cites. Though he/she has a good knowledge of stuff to mention in an edit summary to make it look good. In this edit on 27 April 2026 to Godhra train burning (a contentious article), Lechtkaeaeia changed "According to one narrative, the train was attacked by a mob" to "The train was attacked by a muslim mob". Part of Lechtkaeaeia's edit summary said "WP:WEASEL phrase "According to one narrative" removed because the facts about the mob have been established legally by the court." Lechtkaeaeia's edit provided a citation to The Hindu to support that it was a muslim mob. This is an archive link to the cited article; it has no mention of muslims or mobs.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:25, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- While this may not have been intentional GAMEing, I think that the concerns related to the edit identified here are enough cause to pull XC (or apply a topic ban) pending community review. If someone feels motivated to mentor them, more power to you, but I'm skeptical that it will be a worthwhile use of community time, and ultimately maintaining one's own sufficient competence to edit is each editors' responsibility. signed, Rosguill talk 14:22, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Their edits outside of alleged gaming are also problematic, take for example:
- This edit promoting Ayurveda, a pseudoscientific form of medicine sourced to opinion pieces and journal on the alternative medicine itself while stating that they are using WP:MEDRS, which has since been reverted by Guy Macon, another instance on traditional chinese medicine .
- Used misleading edit summary to remove sourced content on R. C. Majumdar.
- Pasting AI generated content directly into the article, as highlighted by below THEZDRX (User) | (Contact) 14:52, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree that those edits are problematic. Stepwise Continuous Dysfunction (talk) 22:29, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
Suggested course of action: (1) Remove "extended confirmed" status, since they gamed it. Restore it in 3 months time if they have been making good edits, that (a) are supported by the sources they cite, (b) do not use AI such as Grammarly to produce the content [minor grammar errors are acceptable], and (c) have edit summaries that are relevant to to the edits in question [misleading edit summaries are unacceptable]. (2) Do not apply a South Asia topic ban - it is too wide-ranging, and unnecessary if he/she is making an effort to make good edits. (3) This assumes that they work with a mentor.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:29, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
This all strikes me as rookie errors and some overeagerness. They seem apologetic and willing to learn. Not sure what else we need to do here. Even some of the edits like on ayurveda and tcm arent promoting them, just noting government initiatives that promote these systems. The sources may not great, but that is again rookie mistakes. Its not always easy to tell that something is an opinion piece if you arent familiar with what to look for. Even Ive messed that up more than once, and had to fix it. Lecht, Id say these are sensitive areas, so perhaps lay off a little longer. Find things you hhave a deep interest in that arent controversial and go in depth there. No shortage of things to do. Isnt there a destubathon going on? I used to destub when I started. You can also just search for stubs by topic. And definitely AI is a nono, for the reasons stated. Since you arent a native English speaker, perhaps you can find sources in your native language that are needed on certain articles that are not controversial.← Metallurgist (talk) 22:38, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Lechtkaeaeia has now added a huge AI generated text to Cime di Lemma and most of content is not supported by the cited source. This is when he was told to find a mentor and avoid mainspace. I think an indefinite block is totally warranted. THEZDRX (User) | (Contact) 13:55, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- No. I have not used AI to make this edit. I was following Metallurgists suggestion about destubbing articles. I saw in the banner of Cime di Lemma that I can use google translate and other tools to help translate and check facts and that is all I did, but I wont use that anymore too, I am sorry, I am learning. Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi @Lechtkaeaeia, it seems like you're jumping into the deep end a little with editing. Have you tried something simpler? We all learn at different rates and that's ok. The Wikipedia:Typo Team has lots of tasks that don't need AI for & can help you to learn how to edit Wikipedia slowly.
- You can start with simple spelling errors & take a few minutes to read through each article so you can see what different ones look like.
- After a while, you could then move onto simple word changes, like swapping a non-neutral word/phrase for a more neutral one - the Typo Team will have a list and instructions to help you. You can then build up to more complex tasks from there.
- Before you do any of that, I think you might find it useful to do the Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Adventure & get the basics down - what do you think? Blue-Sonnet 17:48, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you so much! I have pinged my mentor and I will check out these links as well. Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Lechtkaeaeia has already done loads of "swapping a non-neutral word/phrase for a more neutral one" - I do not know why people imagine that it is a good task for new editors; they are the ones least qualified to do it - it is better that he/she tries to build articles or contribute to articles, because that addresses Lechtkaeaeia's learning need: how to write sentences based on what sources say.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:30, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're right that would be a lot more helpful, I was focusing on building up from smaller tasks to more complex ones slowly, but there's not much point if that's the bulk of what they've already been doing for so long.
- I presumed that most of the earlier edits were made with AI & thought it might be helpful if they tried to do it themselves, but interpreting sources is a very important skill to have here. Blue-Sonnet 22:10, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Lechtkaeaeia has already done loads of "swapping a non-neutral word/phrase for a more neutral one" - I do not know why people imagine that it is a good task for new editors; they are the ones least qualified to do it - it is better that he/she tries to build articles or contribute to articles, because that addresses Lechtkaeaeia's learning need: how to write sentences based on what sources say.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:30, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you so much! I have pinged my mentor and I will check out these links as well. Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- No. I have not used AI to make this edit. I was following Metallurgists suggestion about destubbing articles. I saw in the banner of Cime di Lemma that I can use google translate and other tools to help translate and check facts and that is all I did, but I wont use that anymore too, I am sorry, I am learning. Lechtkaeaeia (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
Misuse of infoboxes by Thedarkknightli
Thedarkknightli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
An editor from the PRC (whose IP-block exempted), did misusing for changing the infoboxes and discussions. These latest edits caused by WP:EDITWAR, WP:UNCIVIL, and MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE etc. Here are the evidence:
- Hugo Weaving (2 May 2026, latest edit war)
- Talk:Milla Jovovich (29 April 2026, "knock it off" as incivility violation)
- Millie Bobby Brown (27 April 2026, violates incivility again)
Absolutiva 06:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Excuse me, but I find your accusations kinda ridiculous and am not sure why you are dragging me here nine months after unsuccessfully filing an enforcement request against me. Since when is "knock it off" an uncivil term (see , , etc)?? Since when do I edit-war over Weaving's citizenship in the infobox?? Thedarkknightli (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- None of this is edit warring, nor is "knock it off" an incivility violation. wound theology◈ 07:00, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Pinging @Clintville: Absolutiva 07:11, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Even in nationality in lede does:
- Absolutiva 07:18, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, I was reverting edits made by @Dealer07's socks (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#13 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#12 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#10 April 2026, etc), and WP:3RRNO clearly states that it's perfectly fine to revert "
actions performed by banned users in violation of a ban, and sockpuppets or meatpuppets of banned or blocked users
" more than thrice "on a single page within a 24-hour period
", no? Thanks, Thedarkknightli (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2026 (UTC)- @FinnSoThin: can you please explain this edit without explanation per edit summary? Absolutiva 08:28, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- This is not the place for content disputes. wound theology◈ 10:37, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- @FinnSoThin: can you please explain this edit without explanation per edit summary? Absolutiva 08:28, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, I was reverting edits made by @Dealer07's socks (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#13 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#12 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#10 April 2026, etc), and WP:3RRNO clearly states that it's perfectly fine to revert "
- Pinging @Clintville: Absolutiva 07:11, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
Return to potentially POINTy editing
Misuse of infoboxes by Thedarkknightli
Thedarkknightli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
An editor from the PRC (whose IP-block exempted), did misusing for changing the infoboxes and discussions. These latest edits caused by WP:EDITWAR, WP:UNCIVIL, and MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE etc. Here are the evidence:
- Hugo Weaving (2 May 2026, latest edit war)
- Talk:Milla Jovovich (29 April 2026, "knock it off" as incivility violation)
- Millie Bobby Brown (27 April 2026, violates incivility again)
Absolutiva 06:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Excuse me, but I find your accusations kinda ridiculous and am not sure why you are dragging me here nine months after unsuccessfully filing an enforcement request against me. Since when is "knock it off" an uncivil term (see , , etc)?? Since when do I edit-war over Weaving's citizenship in the infobox?? Thedarkknightli (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- None of this is edit warring, nor is "knock it off" an incivility violation. wound theology◈ 07:00, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Pinging @Clintville: Absolutiva 07:11, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Even in nationality in lede does:
- Absolutiva 07:18, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, I was reverting edits made by @Dealer07's socks (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#13 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#12 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#10 April 2026, etc), and WP:3RRNO clearly states that it's perfectly fine to revert "
actions performed by banned users in violation of a ban, and sockpuppets or meatpuppets of banned or blocked users
" more than thrice "on a single page within a 24-hour period
", no? Thanks, Thedarkknightli (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2026 (UTC)- @FinnSoThin: can you please explain this edit without explanation per edit summary? Absolutiva 08:28, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- This is not the place for content disputes. wound theology◈ 10:37, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- @FinnSoThin: can you please explain this edit without explanation per edit summary? Absolutiva 08:28, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, I was reverting edits made by @Dealer07's socks (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#13 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#12 April 2026, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dealer07#10 April 2026, etc), and WP:3RRNO clearly states that it's perfectly fine to revert "
- Pinging @Clintville: Absolutiva 07:11, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
Behaviour of User Brentonrkaring
I have got to the end of my tether about the editing behaviour of @Brentonrkaring:. This editor is reverting or replacing WP:GOODFAITH edits by me and other on articles such as 2026–27 AFC Champions League Two where they believe that a certain team has qualified and a certain team has not. Their edits and reverts do not contain edit summaries. Their edits and reverts generally do not provide references. Every attempt at engaging via their talk page results in blanking of the talk page, zero engagement, and sometimes a trigger to creating an additional edit pushing their point of view at one or two articles, where their views do not align with my own (nor those of @Sydneyfc4me:). My view is that this is approaching WP:VANDALISM, and the view of User:Sydneyfc4me as potentially being WP:SNEAKY. Trying to have a discussion about this at Talk:2026–27 AFC Champions League Two, and User:Brentonrkaring thinks it is OK to revert/remove a whole section, in the same fashion as they engage in WP:BLANKING on their talk page (the only place they are entitled to do so). I am requesting some Time-out on editing privileges as a reasonable outcome for someone who generally does not engage with the rest of the community when their edits are in dispute. Matilda talk 09:28, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Considering their response was to blank this thread and general refusal to communicate, I would be inclined to say they're WP:NOTHERE at this point. • Quinn (talk • it/its) 15:25, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- This has been a chronic issue with the user. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1158#Brentonrkaring ignoring pleas to stop controversial edits, and subsequent block. Main way they interact is to delete things addressed to them. Prior block for same issue. Indeffed. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:50, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
Temp account's unconstructive reply to warning for blanking content
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The temp account whose comment is linked was warned for blanking content on Syriac alphabet. The edit summary they leave reads prosyletism
. Today, they leave this comment saying Talk about beeing a christian militant( maybe a jew ) ....
An incredibly unconstructive and antisemitic reply like this warrants a block for the temp account, as they are clearly WP:NOTHERE. PresentlySuraye3 (talk) 17:42, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:04, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
Promo/LLM issue
- Weyland Hengest (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Weyland Hengest has repeatedly engaged in promotional editing relating to the subject of Draft:Wayne Martin Mellinger, which was deleted G13 a few years ago. These edits include spamming unrelated talk pages and creating a promotional (and possibly AI) sandbox. Despite several talk page warnings, they have continued to show they are not here to build an encyclopedia. Somepinkdude (talk) 21:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
Possible permission gaming and UPE
PremJi87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I originally asked about this on The Bushranger's talk page here. This editor appears to have permission gamed into gaining autoconfirmed, and then has created Smruti Ranjan Nayak. I believe they have permission gamed because they appear to be editing too quickly for typing regularly; they created User:PremJi87/sandbox in the span of just 4 minutes, which seems to indicate they were copy and pasting the content from elsewhere. Assuming that is the case, it is strange why they segmented their contributions rather than copy and pasting the whole article. They also may be an undisclosed paid editor, given that many of the sources appear to also be undisclosed paid articles. For instance , and all appear to be the exact same promotional article, word for word copied. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 02:40, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- That's weird - this is a single edit, yet it's both curly and straight quotes - this is further proof that the text is copied from elsewhere, yet added in multiple separate edits for one of the aforementioned reasons. Blue-Sonnet 06:16, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- An edit filter for adding both curly and straight quotes at once would certainly catch a lot of weird happenstances. Not sure if it's common enough to make a filter for, but definitely something to consider in the future if we see this happening again (I remember already seeing it a few times myself). On the other hand, there's certainly some risk of false positives (e.g. adding an automated citation that preserves curly quote formatting in the title), so not that straightforward either. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 07:13, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Many websites have filters for edits that are made in quick succession, but a lot of processes are automated so I'd imagine that wouldn't be feasible here. Blue-Sonnet 10:06, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- I sometimes copy paste quotes from articles which are sources and those articles often use curly quotes. Most of the time I remember to replace them with straight quotes, but not always. I don't think I'm all that unusual. I think you'd end up with a lot of false positives with the suggested edit filter. TarnishedPathtalk 06:18, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- An edit filter for adding both curly and straight quotes at once would certainly catch a lot of weird happenstances. Not sure if it's common enough to make a filter for, but definitely something to consider in the future if we see this happening again (I remember already seeing it a few times myself). On the other hand, there's certainly some risk of false positives (e.g. adding an automated citation that preserves curly quote formatting in the title), so not that straightforward either. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 07:13, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
User:AIand unreviewed LLM usage
- AIand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:AIand has created four unreviwed AI sandboxes, in addition to this obviously AI-generated draft page. They haven't been warned yet, but their history of AI edits would almost certainly warrant a block if they create a sixth AI page. Somepinkdude (talk) 21:30, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Since they haven't been warned I thought someone should probably go ahead and do it. Unfortunately they weren't available, so I did it myself. Blue-Sonnet 23:09, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for reviewing. I understand the concern about AI-assisted drafting. Per WP:LLM and WP:VERIFY, using AI tools to assist with drafting is permitted as long as the editor takes responsibility for accuracy, neutrality, and sourcing.
- This draft cites academic secondary sources for every historical period from the 1980s–2023: Gillespie 2018, Yeung 2018, Rheingold 1993, Kollock 1999, Resnick 1997, Jøsang 2007, Napoli 2019, O’Neil 2016, and Heldt 2022. The two patents are used as primary sources for technical definitions only, per WP:PRIMARY. The 2026 patent explicitly states it "formalizes and extends the personalization cycle models disclosed in US2004/0133469A1", so the lineage is sourced, not synthesized.
- I’m happy to address any specific issues with neutrality, sourcing, or notability. If there are statements you believe are unverified or promotional, please tag them and I’ll fix or remove them. I’m here to build an encyclopedic article that meets policy. PD the subject matter is indeed a relevant piece of information SUPORTED BY PATENTS REFERENCE.. The short history behind, History score for internet generate as architecture system back in 2003, Patent publication, the inventor got inspired by what he call the Hear of the American dream, that was, by credit score, base on Behavor you can full fill your dreams.. like own a house ect. This linage now is relevant in AI agentic, since user behaivor are interacting and modifing MLL.. My articles are just introduction to a more wide Tesis. Thanks againj AIand (talk) 06:59, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Your first two paragraphs are straight out of an LLM and will be disregarded. Your third paragraph is a word salad and makes no sense whatsoever. What are you trying to achieve with this style of communication? It appears very disrespectful of your fellow editors’ time. • a frantic turtle 🐢 07:20, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's also read from an old policy that no longer exists, indicating that AIand hasn't read the page themselves but asked the AI to do it for them - the current guideline is that they should only be used for basic copy-editing and translation only.
- Secondly, WP:VERIFY says diddly-squat about AI use.
- AI wrote everything in that post up to "
PD the subject matter...
" and it's strong evidence that they are not checking the output of whatever LLM they're correctly using. Blue-Sonnet 07:43, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- I google the policy and that is what it said, if the policy was updated adn meta data is wrong that should not lead with misunderstanding, i understand you guys need to deal with many emotional post or comercial oriented. but this not the case. However what to do on my case. I can not change that. Thanks you have nice day AIand (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Aland, I suspect English is not your first (meaning “main”) language and that is causing these communication issues where you cannot understand our policies and we cannot understand your replies. If that is indeed the case, you may be better off contributing in your first language rather than in English here. If you look at List of Wikipedias, you will find the edition for your first language. They’ll be very grateful for your contributions and your account here will work there. • a frantic turtle 🐢 08:09, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've also checked User talk:AIand/sandbox4, where the above AI-generated comment was copied.
- This post says that the draft has been fixed, but the sandbox hasn't actually been edited since the tag was placed .
- They have not "
replaced the entire draft with a fully sourced, human‑reviewed version using only reliable secondary sources
", that statement is just not true. - Instead, they tried twice to remove the G15 tag but we're prevented from doing so by a filter. Blue-Sonnet 09:57, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Draft:History of User‑Behavior Scoring Systems is also AI-generated with fictitious references, I'm going to tag G15 since it's essentially the same as the now-deleted sandbox. Blue-Sonnet 10:14, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Aland, I suspect English is not your first (meaning “main”) language and that is causing these communication issues where you cannot understand our policies and we cannot understand your replies. If that is indeed the case, you may be better off contributing in your first language rather than in English here. If you look at List of Wikipedias, you will find the edition for your first language. They’ll be very grateful for your contributions and your account here will work there. • a frantic turtle 🐢 08:09, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I google the policy and that is what it said, if the policy was updated adn meta data is wrong that should not lead with misunderstanding, i understand you guys need to deal with many emotional post or comercial oriented. but this not the case. However what to do on my case. I can not change that. Thanks you have nice day AIand (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Your first two paragraphs are straight out of an LLM and will be disregarded. Your third paragraph is a word salad and makes no sense whatsoever. What are you trying to achieve with this style of communication? It appears very disrespectful of your fellow editors’ time. • a frantic turtle 🐢 07:20, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
LLM use (and denial) by EarlyChurchResearcher
EarlyChurchResearcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Bringing this to AN/I versus AICN because this is a behavioural issue more than a matter of cleanup needed, as the user's primary creation has been stubified. The article showed evidence of LLM-generated formatting and language, particularly this edit that replaced correctly formatted citations with link-free citations. However, when warned and then asked explicitly about the extent of LLM use, the user denied using LLMs in a response that was transparently written by an LLM. Appears to be WP:NOTHERE if they are using LLMs for talk page responses, violating WP:NOLLM and not being forthright about its use. Dclemens1971 (talk) 03:25, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Is it worth offloading the draft that's merged into their user-talk into a proper Draft: page so it can eventually get deleted when the clock runs out? Otherwise, the clock might run out and the user-talk get accidentally deleted because that's where the decline tag is now. DMacks (talk) 04:53, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- On the plus side, they're starting to write replies themselves.
- Their last edit before this was to add broken sources then thankfully fix them, but the "fix" was to delete the broken sources and leave the paragraph uncited.
- Considering the original edit summary was
"Adding sourced section on scholarship"
, where the heck are the sources that they apparently had? I wonder if they're trying to fix the article but don't know how to put the original citations back after they were broken and now the whole thing is unsourced. Blue-Sonnet 05:11, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- Quick update, I realised this was a paragraph that was removed as AI-generated originally. It's been added back without any changes or sources, so I've gone ahead and removed it.
- I've also invited @EarlyChurchResearcher to join this discussion, so we can try and get this resolved. Blue-Sonnet 05:20, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi, thank you. I'm here to follow the discussion. I will review the content and make sure it follows Wikipedia policies. Thank you again for your correction. EarlyChurchResearcher (talk) 05:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi and thanks for responding, can you please let us know whether you were using AI, LLM, chatbots or machine translation earlier?
- We need to figure out whether the problems were caused by that, or if there's something else that caused the errors we've been seeing.
- If we can't understand the cause, we can't look at a solution. Blue-Sonnet 06:20, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi, thank you for your question. I did use external tools to help draft some text earlier, but I understand this is not appropriate for Wikipedia. I will make sure to write my edits and responses myself going forward and follow wikipedia policies. Thank you. EarlyChurchResearcher (talk) EarlyChurchResearcher (talk) 06:30, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi, thank you. I'm here to follow the discussion. I will review the content and make sure it follows Wikipedia policies. Thank you again for your correction. EarlyChurchResearcher (talk) 05:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
User:Anticommunist 6
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Anticommunist 6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
I have not interacted with this user in any way and only noticed them because someone else addressed them in a new topic on an article talk page I'm subscribed to (i.e. Islamo-leftism. Skimming through their contributions, it looks like there may be some addressing needed:
- — they received some contentious topic notifications and warnings which they removed from their talk page (which isn't a problem by itself, but maybe notable in the great scheme of things)
- mild case of wiki lawyering?
- NPOV edits to the Great Replacement conspiracy theory and semi-edit warring over it (although they took things to the talk page later, so kudos for that): . Their take to the talk page:
- templating the regulars with CTOP notifications (again: not a problem in itself, but it's just the sum of things overall):
- blanking warnings from their talk page again:
- they were accidentally affected by some global IP ban?
- changing nationality in BLP articles from Spanish to Turkish/Algerian (the latter two being Muslim countries may or may not be a coincidence, I don't know whether the changes were justified, but I know that they got reverted and warned)
- now to NPOV edits on the article of Islamo-leftism:
Admittedly, I have not tried to resolve the issue with the editor, but I feel like there's some broader talking to do regarding NPOV etc. I don't have any particular sanctions in mind. Maybe even a stern warning would do, assuming good faith and taking account that they are new. Nakonana (talk) 09:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's not good, the edits on GRCT and Islamo-leftism are problematic and they're editing warring over them. The nationality changes in BLPs ( and ) are just vandalism - Yamal was born in Spain to parents from Equatorial Guinea and Morocco, so he's definitely not Algerian, and Arteta is simply Spanish. Black Kite (talk) 11:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm edit warring on GRCT on an edit that was last made a month ago? You seem to be interested in agenda pushing yourself. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 11:46, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Great Replacement Anticommunist 6 (talk) 11:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- What's your explanation for the edits to Yamal/Arteta articles? GiantSnowman 12:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Mistakes. Regardless, I was notified about it and no further edits were made. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, a mistake is writing '138' instead of '139' or similar. This was deliberate. Why? GiantSnowman 13:03, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Mistakes can be a lot of things. The use of the word "deliberate" seems dishonest, especially given you're working with such little information and a narrow view of what mistakes are in general. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- My friend, you are digging yourself a hole here. I'll give you one last chance before we start deciding to block you. What was the innocent 'mistake' in changing Mikel Arteta's nationality to Turkish? GiantSnowman 13:10, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, GiantSnowman? A mistake. You should've started that discussion a while ago then, if you're gonna operate like this. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The problem is that you did it twice, so it wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate. The community is generally willing to tolerate errors, but it is not willing to tolerate vandalism, especially when it is lied about afterwards. I would consider very carefully your next replies. Black Kite (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you've already decided it's vandalism and choosing to ignore above comments, then I'm not sure why you're telling me to consider my replies carefully, as the narrative here has already been determined. I'm not going to blurt out the "truth" by genuinely laughable intimidation. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The problem is that you did it twice, so it wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate. The community is generally willing to tolerate errors, but it is not willing to tolerate vandalism, especially when it is lied about afterwards. I would consider very carefully your next replies. Black Kite (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, GiantSnowman? A mistake. You should've started that discussion a while ago then, if you're gonna operate like this. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- My friend, you are digging yourself a hole here. I'll give you one last chance before we start deciding to block you. What was the innocent 'mistake' in changing Mikel Arteta's nationality to Turkish? GiantSnowman 13:10, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Mistakes can be a lot of things. The use of the word "deliberate" seems dishonest, especially given you're working with such little information and a narrow view of what mistakes are in general. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, a mistake is writing '138' instead of '139' or similar. This was deliberate. Why? GiantSnowman 13:03, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Mistakes. Regardless, I was notified about it and no further edits were made. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- What's your explanation for the edits to Yamal/Arteta articles? GiantSnowman 12:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Great Replacement Anticommunist 6 (talk) 11:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Also, the situation in Islamo-leftism does not constitute edit-warring per [] on a page that does not have any existing arbitration on reversions. These edits fall under the normal BRD(BOLD, REVERT, DISCUSS) cycle. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 11:50, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Except you didn't follow BRD. Your bold edits to that article were reverted, at which point you should have discussed them on the talk page, but you simply reinstated them. That's not going to work at all. I do like the claim of "agenda pushing" though, which is almost always a sign that the OP is agenda pushing themselves (I don't think I've ever edited either of those articles, but this is an admin noticeboard, hence my comment). Black Kite (talk) 12:43, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I mentioned "agenda pushing" sarcastically because the OP was clearly in a conspiratorial tone implying some sort of agenda pushing with their use of "coincidences"(?). It wasn't BRD though, true. "That's not going to work at all", It would've worked if the revision deserved to stay in the first place, nonetheless, the situation was resolved in civility between me and CoconutOctopus as I don't plan to revert it. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 12:51, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm edit warring on GRCT on an edit that was last made a month ago? You seem to be interested in agenda pushing yourself. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 11:46, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Other issues aside this edit shows the falsification of a quote, that type of behaviour definitely needs to stop. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:20, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Your description of a singular edit as a "behaviour" is incredibly dishonest. I don't think I've edited quotes before this one. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 12:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- That really doesn't explain why you falsified this one. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- (Nor why said falsification was restored after I reverted it) CoconutOctopus talk 12:36, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Or... it could be explained by a simple oversight. As I have not reverted the last reversion made by CoconutOctopus after it was brought to the talk-page. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 12:39, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- As it was an oversight, and you didn't realise it was a quote you should then have a source to back up your changes. Was failing to provide that, and leaving in place the source that verified the complete opposite of your edit another oversight? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:04, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:12, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Even if taken at face value, that's a long string of questionable oversights in your editing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- More room to improve then. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Even if taken at face value, that's a long string of questionable oversights in your editing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 13:12, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- As it was an oversight, and you didn't realise it was a quote you should then have a source to back up your changes. Was failing to provide that, and leaving in place the source that verified the complete opposite of your edit another oversight? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:04, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Or... it could be explained by a simple oversight. As I have not reverted the last reversion made by CoconutOctopus after it was brought to the talk-page. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 12:39, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- (Nor why said falsification was restored after I reverted it) CoconutOctopus talk 12:36, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- That really doesn't explain why you falsified this one. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Your description of a singular edit as a "behaviour" is incredibly dishonest. I don't think I've edited quotes before this one. Anticommunist 6 (talk) 12:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I note for clarity I am WP:INVOLVED here, as I have reverted them on the Islamo-Leftism article; I would like to add that they also uploaded an image which is a clear copyvio to Commons for use in the article - see Commons:File:Paradoxical Islamo-lefitsm.jpg. I note I have nominated this for deletion at Commons. CoconutOctopus talk 12:32, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support indef block - given the conduct linked to above, and the very questionable responses to reasonable concerns, I have zero trust in this editor and they should not be part of our community. GiantSnowman 13:31, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Involved support indef. CoconutOctopus talk 13:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Slightly involved I’ve looked over this editor’s edits, strongly support indef Doug Weller talk 14:48, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Involved support indef. CoconutOctopus talk 13:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support indef - if it was just the above issues but they recognised them, showed understanding of why the edits were problematic and actually pledged to do better, I might oppose indef.
- At best, if I squint really hard, I'm maybe seeing only one of these three things.
- If any of that changes I'll be happy to review my decision, but for the moment their overall combative tone doesn't leave me hopeful.
- I'd also like to point out this very recent Talk page discussion, where NightHeron clearly doesn't want to discuss the matter but Anticommunist 6 has refused to stop until they get what they want - "
It will end when you admit that you were wrong, or supply a proper defense on the non-inclusion of demographic statistics.
" Blue-Sonnet 15:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Not involved, support indef given what I've been seeing in this thread and flipping through their edits. Not helpful to the encyclopedia and not receptive towards feedback at all, net negative to our progress and no visible trajectory towards improvement. grapesurgeon (talk) 15:10, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support indef – Spot-checking, roughly 66% of their edits in article space have been reverted, mostly for POV pushing. Reading through the interaction with GiantSnowman doesn't give me any confidence they're here to work collaboratively, shrugging off blatant vandalism as "mistakes". Combative attitude and general refusal to acknowledge their own wrongdoing. • Quinn (talk • it/its) 15:10, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
IvanScrooge98 - Once again attempting to block evade by WP:PROXYING
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
IvanScrooge98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an editor who has recently caught a string of blocks in regards to their behaviour on the English Wikipedia, predominantly around the page Moroccanoil, and are currently in receipt of a month long general block for their conduct.
However they have begun to once again attempt to block evade via WP:PROXYING, something they are very aware of as not being allowed given they received a 48 hour block for the exact same behaviour barely a month ago.
Plenty of editors, myself included, have tried to get them to understand why their behaviour is repeatedly out of line of late, but every time they simply refuse to listen and instead repeatedly demand they are unblocked and insult all admins as biased against them.
Think this is the end of the line now and they need to be indef'd with TPA removed. Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- TPA revoked. No opinion on an indef. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:32, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Additional - IvanScrooge has now begun attempting to evade their block via the Commons. (actually done it multiple times)
- Therefore believe the Indef is still necessary, and also request best advice on dealing with the Commons issue. Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:47, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The month-long block was and is fine, with or without talk page access. Wikimedia Commons's rules regarding the unwanted restoration of user talk page messages are similar to the English Wikipedia's; commons:COM:HUSH exists and violations can be reported to commons:COM:AN/U. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:04, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- They were pretty receptive on talk, seem to just be having a rough time with that spilling onto WP. Is the proxy editing related to their tban? It seems innocuous Kowal2701 (talk, contribs) 16:11, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The previous instance of proxy editing was directly related to their pageblock (i.e. asking for people to make their preferred edits to Moroccanoil while blocked). This time they're blocked entirely from the wiki so were pinging a user to restore their preferred version of an article while blocked. Rambling Rambler (talk) 16:14, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Frankly their "receptiveness" seems to entirely be "you're getting in my way" and has been going on for some months now as a mentality. Whenever they're blocked they demand to be unblocked and any admin who blocked them is clearly out to get them. Rambling Rambler (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah but I’d be more inclined to attribute that to impaired judgement atm. They’ve been editing for over a decade and all their blocks both here and on it.wiki have come in the last year or so. If there needs to be an indef I’d rather it were a compassionate one with a route back to editing once they’re doing better Kowal2701 (talk, contribs) 16:21, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- This. And they replied to a ping. I'm having trouble imagining less severe forms of proxying. The issue has been handled and this can be closed. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah but I’d be more inclined to attribute that to impaired judgement atm. They’ve been editing for over a decade and all their blocks both here and on it.wiki have come in the last year or so. If there needs to be an indef I’d rather it were a compassionate one with a route back to editing once they’re doing better Kowal2701 (talk, contribs) 16:21, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Frankly their "receptiveness" seems to entirely be "you're getting in my way" and has been going on for some months now as a mentality. Whenever they're blocked they demand to be unblocked and any admin who blocked them is clearly out to get them. Rambling Rambler (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The previous instance of proxy editing was directly related to their pageblock (i.e. asking for people to make their preferred edits to Moroccanoil while blocked). This time they're blocked entirely from the wiki so were pinging a user to restore their preferred version of an article while blocked. Rambling Rambler (talk) 16:14, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
ItzNini
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
ItzNini (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm honestly not sure what's going on here. ItzNini added a "blocked" message (diff) to User talk:HDMI4K. (The message seems to have been substituted from a custom template at User:ItzNini/Blocked.)
The user, HDMI4K (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), was not blocked at the time and has never been blocked, so I reverted the "blocked" message. I asked ItzNini twice why she had added the "blocked" message, and her responses seem to just be trolling. Cadddr (talk) 00:05, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- To note, there's an unsorted SPI case on that user. MetalBreaksAndBends (talk) 00:09, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Every edit (other than to their own userspace) has been disruptive and the edit filters caught even worse disruption. Also definitely not new to Wikipedia. Indeffed. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:30, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Arnulfo1952. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:12, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by unregistered user ~2026-23752-11
I would like to report multiple disruptive edits by this unregistered user (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/~2026-23752-11). They keep changing previous established consensus on several pages related to singer Lady Gaga, which shows their clear bias. Hopefully there’s an IP block.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arlandria Ff (talk • contribs) 15:31, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
Comment: Added ANI notice on TA's talk. randomdude121 16:17, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- It is not disruptive editing as I included official sources for every claim and edit I made.
- The official attendance is 2.1 million, as stated by Rio de Janeiro City Hall itself, with the figure backed by the Rio de Janeiro Military Police and other authorities. The 2.5 million number comes from artist-side reporting and isn’t independently verified, so it doesn’t override the official count.
- Source: https://prefeitura.rio/cidade/lady-gaga-leva-21-milhoes-de-pessoas-a-copacabana-em-show-historico/
- Just because it is something you don’t agree with doesn’t mean it is disruptive. ~2026-23752-11 (talk) 16:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The 2.5M figure is reported by Live Nation, Bonus Track, Billboard, Pollstar, and Rolling Stone, among others. Even your official sources lack consistency, with the Mayor citing 2.2M and the City Hall 2.1M... CHr0m4tiko0 (talk) 16:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- False. You chose the 2.1 million number as the official one because it’s convenient to you. There are multiple other sources backing the 2.5 million figure, including Pollstar. Saying these other sources aren’t independently verified is just an assumption, you don’t know that. Actually no one knows the exact metodology to calculate these numbers. Arlandria Ff (talk) 16:34, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Note that prior to seeing this report, I blocked from List of most-attended concerts @~2026-23752-11 and @CHr0m4tiko0 24 hours each for edit warring, both having blasted well past 4 reversions. An IP address is blocked from the article for 1 month for much longer disruption. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:30, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
Bot usage
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@BlueRaspberryLemonade appears to be operating a bot despite a notice about bot policy. Dafootballguy | Want to talk? 23:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
Conduct of Khajidha
In this discussion, I warned Khajidha to be civil after they made a rude comment. Despite my attempts to de-escalate, Khajidha doubled down, justifying their behavior by saying the user he was replying to "deserves" it and that they "really don't care if they [the user their initial comment was replying to] get upset". When I reminded them of policy, they tried to shift focus on another user's policy violations. I subsequently told them to not bite the newcomers simply for not knowing policies. They then said they didn't care about the fact that the users who opened the suggestion clearly did not know Wikipedia's rules, that the users who first commented on the discussion were "asshole[s]", and that they "aren't competent".
I am requesting intervention to address this poor conduct. Grilledcheeseisgreat ✉ 01:42, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- For context, this is happening on Talk:Ukraine where there were concerns about (possibly) using Russian spelling. The title is "Stop spelling Ukrainian words in Russian language, that’s gross."
- Khajidha said this was an English term rather than exclusively Russian, but then wrote "
And spare me your "help, help, we're being repressed" posturing. It is horrendously ironic that you are attempting to use this to impose your will on speakers of another language.
" - Further down, they wrote: "
It's not the rules of the encyclopedia. It's simply not being an asshole. If you don't understand that you have no right to control other people's native language, then you aren't competent to be having a discussion in it.
" - Even though they appear to be correct on the etymology, that doesn't excuse these responses - especially when the this appears to be the TA's first (and only) edit.
- I will note that there a concern that the TA created an account just to pretend to be someone else and agree with themselves, plus this is a CT page.
- I don't think this is bad enough to warrant sanctions, but it's a less than ideal response to an apparently new Ukrainian editor. Blue-Sonnet 06:17, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The account was created four minutes after the TA posted this comment and they edited the original comment by the TA (and like the TA, they appear to have intentionally wrote "Russian" in lowercase, which may be interpreted as an attempt at dehumanization), so I can only assume that this is the same person. Mellk (talk) 08:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Plus that's the only edit either the TA or the named account ever made.
- Not definitive, but awfully close. Blue-Sonnet 09:43, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
which may be interpreted as an attempt at dehumanization
maybe, but it’s hard to see how that could be compatible with WP:AGF, given plenty of more straightforward explanations. ~2026-86111-3 (talk) 10:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- Perhaps, but this is something commonly done by nationalists. Mellk (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Assuming "X is commonly done by nationalists" is true for sake of argument, "you do X and I interpret that as an attempt at dehumanization" is still an unambiguous assumption of bad faith. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 18:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- If this happened once, then sure, but they've done this three times now (assuming they are the same person as the IP). Mellk (talk) 18:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- No obviously not -- some people are indifferent to or unaware of or unskilled at capitalization conventions in english. The connection between "they don't capitalize" and "they are engaged in attempted dehumanization" is a massive leap of bad faith. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 19:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I disagree. They consistently capitalized "Ukrainian" and "Kyiv" but always wrote "Russian" in lowercase, while complaining about the Russian language. That is is why I said it may be interpreted as such an attempt. WP:AGF is not a suicide pact. Mellk (talk) 19:25, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It is not suicidal to not make ridiculously strong accusations based on incredibly trivial issues like capitalization habits. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- When one hears hoofbeats, and one is not in Africa, you assume horses, not zebras. Likewise, in this situation, the inference is entirely reasonable and very likely well-founded. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It is not suicidal to not make ridiculously strong accusations based on incredibly trivial issues like capitalization habits. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I disagree. They consistently capitalized "Ukrainian" and "Kyiv" but always wrote "Russian" in lowercase, while complaining about the Russian language. That is is why I said it may be interpreted as such an attempt. WP:AGF is not a suicide pact. Mellk (talk) 19:25, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- No obviously not -- some people are indifferent to or unaware of or unskilled at capitalization conventions in english. The connection between "they don't capitalize" and "they are engaged in attempted dehumanization" is a massive leap of bad faith. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 19:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- If this happened once, then sure, but they've done this three times now (assuming they are the same person as the IP). Mellk (talk) 18:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Assuming "X is commonly done by nationalists" is true for sake of argument, "you do X and I interpret that as an attempt at dehumanization" is still an unambiguous assumption of bad faith. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 18:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but this is something commonly done by nationalists. Mellk (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The account was created four minutes after the TA posted this comment and they edited the original comment by the TA (and like the TA, they appear to have intentionally wrote "Russian" in lowercase, which may be interpreted as an attempt at dehumanization), so I can only assume that this is the same person. Mellk (talk) 08:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- A new response has been added. Grilledcheeseisgreat ✉ 17:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The situation does not warrant an ANI report particularly since I had already issued a warning. Yes, the original poster (who wanted Ukrainian spelling of Kievan Rus') has some issues but they are trivial and should be ignored for a new user. Regardless of that, there is no need to berate other editors and I have issued a final warning at User talk:Khajidha#Warning. Johnuniq (talk) 01:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I apologize for the premature report, as I am extremely new and still learning to navigate Wikipedia's bureaucracy. I'll make sure to leave a formal warning before in the future. Grilledcheeseisgreat ✉ 01:33, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The situation does not warrant an ANI report particularly since I had already issued a warning. Yes, the original poster (who wanted Ukrainian spelling of Kievan Rus') has some issues but they are trivial and should be ignored for a new user. Regardless of that, there is no need to berate other editors and I have issued a final warning at User talk:Khajidha#Warning. Johnuniq (talk) 01:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
HenriPurwanto; AI usage CIR
HenriPurwanto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user's entire participation on Wikipedia thus far has been trying to force the AI-generated Draft:Kidung Lakbok through to mainspace, including moving it to mainspace after it was rejected, repeatedly resubmitting it after it was rejected, and arguing with reviewers at WP:Articles for creation/Help desk using AI-generated responses.
I would strongly suggest a pblock from page creation in both article and draftspace, if not just an indef. Athanelar (talk) 15:46, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Brought to MfD. I also found Special:Diff/1346582659/1351939159 where they added content cited to a Wikisource entry that doesn't exist. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:28, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Blocked from mainspace and draftspace. Was thinking of also blocking them from Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Help desk, although I'm open to a change of heart. It will, however, be the natural next step (if not an indef) if AI-powered arguing resumes there. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:02, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I wonder if this is an AI agent? Edits like this are too fast for someone to be simply copy-pasting from an LLM chatbot, and their editing pattern is different from the typical AI users (they tend to add content in 3-4 edits, rather than creating their pages fully formed. Somepinkdude (talk) 23:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Not sure about that edit, but the next few definitely look like they got stuck in a loop. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:40, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ooh that's iffy, a human is very unlikely to do that - especially keeping the same edit summary. Their user page also has clear AI formatting visible. Blue-Sonnet 03:31, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Not sure about that edit, but the next few definitely look like they got stuck in a loop. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:40, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I wonder if this is an AI agent? Edits like this are too fast for someone to be simply copy-pasting from an LLM chatbot, and their editing pattern is different from the typical AI users (they tend to add content in 3-4 edits, rather than creating their pages fully formed. Somepinkdude (talk) 23:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Blocked from mainspace and draftspace. Was thinking of also blocking them from Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Help desk, although I'm open to a change of heart. It will, however, be the natural next step (if not an indef) if AI-powered arguing resumes there. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:02, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
Thinly veiled legal threats at AfC helpdesk
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I can see a lot of laws being broken by your editorial team already, they block users and they take deliberate decisions NOT to continue investigations but simply dismiss us out of the picture... I will bring you to the attention of mass media, since this is violation of our US and global public security. No need to worry, I am not alone, I represent a massive environmental protection society and both of our lawyers such as the lawyers from the Holocaust Memorial Center in Washington and in Moscow will be reading all of your uneasy comment... from @LaraLev33: in this edit, among other bad-faith allegations and mentality at the AfC helpdesk. GGOTCC 03:49, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
Revoke tpa
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
FFCUK the TMC on 4th May (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – (since reverted) --みんな空の下 (トーク) 10:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by AimanAbir18plus
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am reporting frequent and extensive disruptive editing by User:AimanAbir18plus.
Pattern
The user has displayed a pattern of repeatedly editing articles under contentious topics. Almost all of their edits are either removals of sourced content, removals of images or image link parameters, and minor changes to text. Where text is changed, often sourced text is removed and replaced with unsourced text. On Zoroaster, they removed existing text, replaced it with unsourced text, and saved the edit with the summary "img". After I left a message on their talk page regarding this specific diff, it was blanked. The user has a history of blanking their talk page after receiving warnings and other similar messages.
Talk page messages and blanking
I left the user a first talk page message after I noticed their first edit to Zoroaster with a false edit summary ({{uw-wrongsummary}}). The user did not, to my knowledge, respond to this message anywhere, and proceeded to blank the message from their talk page. After this, the user made another disruptive edit to Zoroaster, and having looked into their history more, I left a {{uw-disruptive3}} warning message on their talk page, which was once again blanked with no response from the user anywhere.
- Initial message ({{uw-wrongsummary}}): Special:Permalink/1350509424 — blanked at Special:Diff/1350577902
- Second message ({{uw-disruptive3}}): Special:Permalink/1350641779 — blanked at Special:Diff/1350755121
Prior warnings from other editors, also blanked without response:
- Special:Diff/1347216444 — removed:
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Satan and Resident Evil 7: Biohazard. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.
andYou currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. This means that you are repeatedly reverting content back to how you think it should be, despite knowing that other editors disagree. Once it is known that there is a disagreement, users are expected to collaborate with others, avoid editing disruptively, and try to reach a consensus – rather than repeatedly reverting the changes made by other user
- Special:Diff/1347216471 — removed a message from an administrator:
Hello, I'm Serge, an Admin here on Wikipedia. You appear to be edit warring across multiple articles currently. Is there something you're not understanding about that? You should be aiming to follow WP:BRD, but you don't seem to be discussing at all, anywhere. If there's any more of this, you'll be blocked from editing. I'm giving you one last chance to do it the right way though. Sergecross73 msg me 20:56, 14 March 2026 (UTC)
- Special:Diff/1347216504 — removed:
Thanks for uploading File:Resident Evil 7 Biohazard cover art.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of non-free use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia... Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 06:09, 15 March 2026 (UTC)
Recent disruptive edits
Edits made in the last few days fitting the user's usual editing pattern — removal of images, template parameters, and links with no edit summaries or explanations, on articles regarding sexual and/or contentious topics. The user has also, on multiple occasions, re-removed content after their initial removal was reverted, even in light of their warning from an admin regarding edit warring.
- Cuckold: removed sourced paragraph with no edit summary or other explanation — Special:Diff/1350755715
- Petticoating: removed image with no edit summary or other explanation — Special:Diff/1350755939
- Black Lives Matter: removed image with no edit summary or other explanation — Special:Diff/1350757261
- Johannes Gutenberg: replaced image with another with no explanation, edit summary "img" — Special:Diff/1350212522
- Johannes Gutenberg: after the first change was reverted, changed the image again — Special:Diff/1350845046
- God: removed two images with no explanation — Special:Diff/1350410147
- God: after the first edit was reverted, removed the two images again with edit summary "God in four Abrahamic religions, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism not needed" — Special:Diff/1350411770
- Atheism: removed image with no explanation — Special:Diff/1350336490
Misleading edit summaries on religious topics
The user also frequently makes these types of edits to pages relating to religions and figures within them.
- Jesus short description: Special:Diff/1336526665 — changed from
{{Short description|Central figure of Christianity}}to{{Short description|1st-century Jewish preacher and religious leader}}with summary "neutral short desc."
Zoroaster edits (the triggering diffs referenced above):
- First false edit summary and change of substantive text: Special:Diff/1350332790
- Second: Special:Diff/1350577442
Removal of Wikipedia process notices
The user not only removes images and sourced text, but also Wikipedia notices.
- Special:Diff/1343779380 — removed an active RfD message from the Gay erotica redirect (which targeted Gay pornography).
Rapid-succession disruptive edits
Diffs showing the disruptive editing pattern when the user makes multiple edits in quick succession on St. Joseph Higher Secondary School:
- Special:Diff/1350405040 — changes only spacing in template fields, moves a picture from the infobox into the main text, and removes the file File:St. Joseph College Garden.jpg with no explanation
- Special:Diff/1350405222 — moves page with no explanation (AimanAbir18plus moved page St. Joseph Higher Secondary School to St. Joseph Higher Secondary School & College)
- Special:Diff/1350405817 — changes all mentions of "St. Joseph Higher Secondary School & College" to "St. Joseph Higher Secondary School"
- Special:Diff/1350405955 — moves page back (AimanAbir18plus moved page St. Joseph Higher Secondary School & College to St. Joseph Higher Secondary School over redirect)
Transgenderoriole (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
- I haven't had time to sort through all of this, but one thing I noticed at a cursory glance. Users are allowed to remove warnings from their talk pages (it should be noted that this does count as the user acknowledging the warning). As per WP:REMOVED. Pyrrhic victor (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
- I am aware of this, these were included to show that the user has acknowledged the many warnings added to their talk page, and continued to engage in disruptive editing in the same pattern despite this, including re-removing content removals they did that were reverted despite acknowledging numerous prior messages regarding edit warring. Transgenderoriole (talk) 13:53, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
- Understood, I interpreted it as you stating that the removal of warnings was a violation of policy, it makes more sense that you meant to show they saw and acknowledged the warnings. Pyrrhic victor (talk) 13:57, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
- I am aware of this, these were included to show that the user has acknowledged the many warnings added to their talk page, and continued to engage in disruptive editing in the same pattern despite this, including re-removing content removals they did that were reverted despite acknowledging numerous prior messages regarding edit warring. Transgenderoriole (talk) 13:53, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
- Their communication is frequently poor and they often do not use edit summaries even when one is necessary. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
- With regards to his talk page: It does seem to be a common occurrence for him to delete suggestions and warnings without responding. Of his first 20 edits to his talk page, 13 of them were to remove discussions without response. (This excludes the 2024 ANI notice as he participated in the discussion here and appears to have been confused about how struck comments from other users were to be treated as he was deleting them. No action was taken outside of giving advice.) Currently, he has gone 29 edits (or 26 if you exclude setting up an archive) since the last response to a discussion on his talk page. While not all of those required a response, they have deleted without response a request to use edit summaries, a separate request to use edit summaries by another user, an unconstructive edit notice plus an edit warring notice from the same user, a separate edit warring notice by another user, and two of Transgenderoriole's notices with the more serious being the disruptive editing notice. That is seven notices in a row that likely should have been responded to in some form. This appears to be an issue when combined with the above. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:22, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I was on the verge of blocking him when I saw this conversation. I've only given them some leeway because in many of the situations I've spot checked, none of the parties are discussing anywhere. That said, as I was quoted above, they're still slow motion edit warring across many articles without any effort to discuss, and simply deleted my comment instead of indicating any sort of confusion on the matter, so it's probably time to escalate from requests and warnings. Sergecross73 msg me 13:02, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- They have now un-reverted their change of the image and removal of the caption on Johannes Gutenberg for the 4th time (Edit 1; Edit 2; Edit 3). They were asked to take it to the talk page, where they simply said that an illustration would be better than the current image. They have not responded to the replies, including from an editor who points out that they have repeatedly removed the caption which explains why the image of a statue was used in the first place (
The original caption I added did include this, with a citation: "Posthumous portrait of Gutenberg. No contemporary depictions survive". This, has of course, been continuously removed (and minimized into a note?) in the slow edit war of the lead image, even though this information is probably more important than any image there!
).Transgenderoriole (talk) 20:25, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Additionally, they are continuing to remove images elsewhere with no explanation, with edit summaries that suggest they are simply adding an image, not replacing an existing one. For example, their recent edits to Wicca, edit summary "
added vector img symbol of Wicca similar to Satanism
". They have also been removing sourced content and changing figures and templates on Abrahamic religions without any explanation. They then re-removed the content after a revert. Transgenderoriole (talk) 20:49, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Additionally, they are continuing to remove images elsewhere with no explanation, with edit summaries that suggest they are simply adding an image, not replacing an existing one. For example, their recent edits to Wicca, edit summary "
- They have again blanked more sections of their talk page. They blanked a message from an editor on Johannes Gutenberg that I described above. They also blanked a message about a non-free image they uploaded, after replacing the existing image on the page Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow with the image they uploaded. They did not respond on the Gutenberg talk page or on the users' talk pages. Transgenderoriole (talk) 03:37, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- AimanAbir18plus (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Do not use LLMs to communicate with fellow editors on Wikipedia. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- @AimanAbir18plus We want to hear what you think about this report and what you will do better, we're not interested in hearing what ChatGPT has to say. Blue-Sonnet 20:42, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- @AimanAbir18plus We want to hear what you think about this report and what you will do better, we're not interested in hearing what ChatGPT has to say. Blue-Sonnet 20:42, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Do not use LLMs to communicate with fellow editors on Wikipedia. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- AimanAbir18plus (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- AimanAbir18plus (talk) 04:41, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- This is still clearly AI, and I have restored the collapsed message above you had removed. Sarsenet•he/they•(talk) 05:01, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- A few massive red flags show that this editor doesn't intend to write their posts themselves, despite being asked to do so:
- ...to improve the accuracy and clarity of X
- ...ensuring that X
- My goal was X...
- I also ensured that X...
- ...X was intended to Y
- ...focusing on X without sacrificing Y
- I’m open to feedback and collaboration...
- This is a textbook AI-formatted response that we see dozens of times a day.
- Humans don't write like this, machines do. We do not want to talk to a machine. Blue-Sonnet 05:44, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- AimanAbir18plus (talk) 04:41, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Replacement of the main image on Johannes Gutenberg with a misleading edit summary. This was reverted, then the user re-replaced the image four separate times. The user was asked to engage on the page's talk page, and stated that they removed and replaced the old image because other historical figures' pages have an illustration as the main image. They did not engage with editors' replies, which explained why the existing image was used. See Edit 1; Edit 2; Edit 3; Edit 4. They blanked the message from their talk page a few days later, still having not engaged on the article talk page.
- Removing sourced content and changing figures and templates on Abrahamic religions without any explanation, and continuing to do so even after reverts. Initial content removal over 3 edits; Revert; User's re-removal of content
- Replacement of images with misleading edit summaries. For example, recent edits to Wicca, edit summary "
added vector img symbol of Wicca similar to Satanism
".
The user, in their AI generated replies to this thread, insists that they are more than willing to discuss [controversial and incorrect edits] and make necessary adjustments in line with the community's consensus
. This is at odds with their repeated blanking of their talk page when receiving critical messages from others, or even a simple request to stop reverting and take it to the page's talk page. Over the past few days, their post on the Gutenberg talk page, where they did not engage with any of its replies, is the only attempt to communicate with others regarding their conduct or the messages left on their talk page. The AI-generated replies to this thread further confirm their unwillingness to communicate sincerely with others on Wikipedia.
- They blanked a message from an editor on Johannes Gutenberg that I described above. They also blanked a message about a non-free image they uploaded, after replacing the existing image on the page Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow with their upload. They did not respond on the Gutenberg talk page or on the users' talk pages.
Given that the user has previously been warned by an admin to stop edit warring (and been given "one last chance"), and that their activity has continued largely unabated, I am hoping this thread will not be archived without a resolution. Given the acknowledgement of the need to escalate the response to this user from warnings and requests, I would appreciate another look at the situation, and perhaps consider sanctions. Transgenderoriole (talk) 13:51, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Unless anyone opposes, I'll impose a temporary block. This behavior (and response) is unacceptable for an editor of this experience level. Sergecross73 msg me 14:03, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
AI-generated articles by Itsdanielsultan
Itsdanielsultan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been pumping out AI-generated articles like it's nobody's business. I draftified a few of them before realizing this is too much for me to handle. I would provide diffs but it's basically their entire contribution history. Thank you for your assistance, MediaKyle (talk) 17:19, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- So sorry for that. Just to clarify, I’ve been writing articles on topics I’m genuinely interested in for a while now, and most of them were typed out by hand. On a handful of them, I used an AI tool as a sort of advanced spellcheck and to clean up phrasing. I realize now that some of those edits may have crossed the line from “fixing typos” into territory that looks AI-generated, and I take responsibility for that.
- What I am going to do to correct this is I will move the articles I can recall using AI on into my drafts. I will then go through them and paste in my original, hand-typed versions so there is a clear record. Articles I wrote entirely by hand will stay as they are.
- I understand why this raised concerns, and I’m not trying to minimize it. I should have been more careful about how I used the tool, and I will not be using it going forward. I’m happy to work with anyone here or a mentor to make sure my contributions meet the standard going forward. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 17:34, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Did you use AI to write this statement? It reads very much like you did. • a frantic turtle 🐢 18:32, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Totally agree that this is likely AI-generated, I think most of us can see the giant red flag in the middle of that reply. The rest of it follows the usual formulaic AI-generated pattern. Blue-Sonnet 20:51, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Itsdanielsultan, sorry to ask, but is your native language English? Kowal2701 (talk, contribs) 18:36, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- No need to be sorry, but yes it's my native language. As I replied to CoffeeCrumbs, the dozen Wiki articles I've created have all ben draftized and I intend to resubmit them after rewriting from scratch with accurate sources. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Just to confirm, under Wiki rules, when you ask for a 'mentor' (to review drafts and articles), is it randomly assigned or do you ask a specific user? Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:41, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi @Itsdanielsultan, here's more info about finding your mentor and asking them for help: Wikipedia:Mentorship Blue-Sonnet 23:02, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Just to confirm, under Wiki rules, when you ask for a 'mentor' (to review drafts and articles), is it randomly assigned or do you ask a specific user? Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:41, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- No need to be sorry, but yes it's my native language. As I replied to CoffeeCrumbs, the dozen Wiki articles I've created have all ben draftized and I intend to resubmit them after rewriting from scratch with accurate sources. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- While I like to assume good faith as absolutely long as I can, I'm a little troubled that the very first article I check, Draft:Ron Lenyk Springfield Park has very clear signs that LLM use was not limited to spellcheck and cleaning up phrasing.
- First, we have one of the most obvious LLM signs: LLMs don't really understand what Wikipedia does, so they tend to report news coverage itself, and then only indirectly report on the things the news coverage says.
- Even worse, this doozy of an LLM generation.
No independent assessments of the park's design, maintenance quality, or environmental condition were identified in published reliable sources at the time of writing. Some user reviews aggregated on third-party platforms noted occasional wasp problems during warmer months.
- Simply put, this is a LLM trademark, like James Bond and his tuxedos. Human simply do not formally announce at the end of their drafts the highly damaging shortcomings of their draft. The source for the wasp thing is an actual AI summary of non-existent reviewer comments, on a commercial site to advertise for local businesses. So an AI readout of an AI readout! Frankly, you copying and pasting what was spit out is probably the kinder assumption; it's way worse if you actually created this section yourself.
- Hopefully this draft was merely an outlier and other drafts cause your story to ring more true. If you have something more to disclose, doing so now would be far better than doing it later. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 21:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi again, just want to clarify that there was indeed AI used. I asked it to "neaten up my doc, because I put too many typos and grammatical errors". As you and others have pointer out, in its infinite wisdom, Opus went further and added more sections and detail that really wasn't necessary. Rather than tweak every error as it gets flagged, I intend to (right now, actually) draftify the dozen wikis I've created and redo them from scratch. I've learnt a lot more about Wiki Etiquette, UI, style etc in the past couple weeks and am sure you'll see quite an improvement. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I appreciate you mentioning what model you used, it helps with data analysis on AI text in various Wikipedia edits. Gnomingstuff (talk) 23:50, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've heard that different AI models prefer different 'phrases'. Opus loves saying 'I feel you' every time you ask for an opinion. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 23:56, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I appreciate you mentioning what model you used, it helps with data analysis on AI text in various Wikipedia edits. Gnomingstuff (talk) 23:50, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi again, just want to clarify that there was indeed AI used. I asked it to "neaten up my doc, because I put too many typos and grammatical errors". As you and others have pointer out, in its infinite wisdom, Opus went further and added more sections and detail that really wasn't necessary. Rather than tweak every error as it gets flagged, I intend to (right now, actually) draftify the dozen wikis I've created and redo them from scratch. I've learnt a lot more about Wiki Etiquette, UI, style etc in the past couple weeks and am sure you'll see quite an improvement. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Did you use AI to write this statement? It reads very much like you did. • a frantic turtle 🐢 18:32, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- I see AI generated replies on their talk page. I have just called two out. The behaviour is unacceotable, and will lead to loss of editing privileges. 🇵🇸🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦🇵🇸 21:46, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi Fiddle, I understand that's not acceptable under Wiki terms. As I mentioned to CoffeeCrumbs and Kowal2701, I have draftized the Wikis I've created and intend to redo them from scratch with minimal errors and absolutely no form of LLM help. I've heard from others that I may be recieving financial compensation for submitting articles on Mississauga based transit, companies and areas, however that's simply my passion. In my resubmission summary, I will explicitly mention my relation to these areas. For example, I was writing about the Woodlands Library after visiting it for the first time recently. From what I'm aware, visiting a place and then writing on it isn't a conflict-of-interest, however in case I'm wrong, I'd appreciate someone clarifying, as I wouldn't want to commit any more rule violations. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:33, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Timtrent, @Itsdanielsultan Also, I moved the draft Draft:Huron Park (Mississauga) over the mainspace via AFC, but it was moved back at some point, and based on the extreme edits to Draft:Huron Park (Mississauga), i was thanking that the draft was generated using LLM because it looked notable before it was moved back so now i don't know whats going to happen to the draft that was accepted. ~ŤheŴubṂachine-840≈ ● ✒️ 23:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Cosmic840 The eventual fate of that draft is in the hands of the creating editor if they choose to submit it for review, or if they let its wither on the G13 vine. Obviously other editors may do what they believe to be correct there as well, editing, suggesting deletion, etc etc. That is a side issue to the behaviour issue that has been reported here, though it is, perhaps, an earnest of goof futire behaviour since the editor under discussion returned it to draft with presumed good intent. 🇵🇸🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦🇵🇸 10:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- AI is very complimentary & writes in a promotional manner, so that may be why others were concerned about a conflict of interest - just living somewhere/caring about something won't be enough to trigger a COI. Blue-Sonnet 03:04, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Got it. Now that I'm redoing it without any LLM usage, I hope that shouldn't be an issue. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 16:09, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Timtrent, @Itsdanielsultan Also, I moved the draft Draft:Huron Park (Mississauga) over the mainspace via AFC, but it was moved back at some point, and based on the extreme edits to Draft:Huron Park (Mississauga), i was thanking that the draft was generated using LLM because it looked notable before it was moved back so now i don't know whats going to happen to the draft that was accepted. ~ŤheŴubṂachine-840≈ ● ✒️ 23:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi Fiddle, I understand that's not acceptable under Wiki terms. As I mentioned to CoffeeCrumbs and Kowal2701, I have draftized the Wikis I've created and intend to redo them from scratch with minimal errors and absolutely no form of LLM help. I've heard from others that I may be recieving financial compensation for submitting articles on Mississauga based transit, companies and areas, however that's simply my passion. In my resubmission summary, I will explicitly mention my relation to these areas. For example, I was writing about the Woodlands Library after visiting it for the first time recently. From what I'm aware, visiting a place and then writing on it isn't a conflict-of-interest, however in case I'm wrong, I'd appreciate someone clarifying, as I wouldn't want to commit any more rule violations. Itsdanielsultan (talk) 22:33, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
Automated editing in census-designated place articles
CyrusTheMediocre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) registered their account in June 2025, but began seriously editing in December. The supreme majority of their edits appear to be performed by an automated script, most likely https://github.com/StuartMcClintock/wikipedia-census-cyrus. CyrusTheMediocre made 22 thousand edits in February alone. In 23 February, they were blocked by Theleekycauldron (t c). After pledging to follow the bot guidelines, they were unblocked, but proceeded to make similar edits, suffixing "(manual)" in the edit summary, with robotic phrasing such as "0.0% of residents lived in urban areas, while 100.0% lived in rural areas." (The phrasing continues to exist in edits made today). CyrusTheMediocre did file two BRFAs, one for their account and one for for a bot account, but did not respond to a BAG query and untranscluded it from the main BRFA page. There is no question these edits are automated; the current iteration of the editing bot has been running continuously since at least 28 April, when I gave up scrolling through the contributions. I blocked them from the mainspace after the script continued after I asked them to stop it on their talkpage. SounderBruce (t c) and others previously notified CyrusTheMediocre of issues with the automated edits, which CyrusTheMediocre does reply to; I don't know whether the issues were also fixed retroactively, or if many articles remain with issues caused by the script.
In the course of my research I also came across Rossdegenstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has similarly performed mass edits (albeit on a smaller scale) while appearing not to reply to some concerns raised on their talkpage. A sample of issues their edits caused can be seen through insource:/_% from/.
Beyond the automated editing, I seriously doubt that these additions are even encyclopaedic and not a WP:NOTSTATS violation. DatGuyTalkContribs 15:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Demographic data is usually encyclopedic, but I'd delete anything from earlier than the 2020 United States census (which is the basis of every automated edit by CyrusTheMediocre) and drop the redundant sub-header where it is the only subsection. Awkward phrasing and violations of MOS:RELTIME can be handled by script, perhaps with "The United States Census Bureau classifies $1 as an entirely rural community."
- Rossdegenstein's edits contain an obvious formatting error, and they will likely need to be mass reverted or mass rewritten using another script.
- Both users should be banned from making mass automated edits without approval. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:05, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- I have brought up concerns about the quality of the prose in the automated edits, which does not seem to lend itself towards adaptivity and adherence with the MOS. Sometimes, the statistics need to be more closely tailored for different area types; e.g. a city does not need the percentage of urban residents, but a CDP could in some cases. Similarly, the 2000 census sections should have been removed when making these additions, as project norms have been to keep only the two more recent census sections in city and place articles. I have an example of a "cleaned up" version at Gold Bar, Washington#Demographics that could be used as a template for a future script.
- Aside from those additions, the edits by Rossdegenstein tend to be full of errors or completely false information, so I do think that more firm action is needed. I have reverted many of their edits for improper formatting or the use of multiple tables to show redundant information on racial statistics (which really should be in prose form to allow for some nuance where needed). SounderBruce 21:07, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- I got two notifications (bell alert icon) from DatGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Then I read ANI. Yeah, why does CyrusTheMediocre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) editing those cities and counties on the 2020 census line in the demographics? 2020 census is not the same as 2000 census. Then second, I re-edited and fixed 2020 census is the same as 2000 census. Three lines in 2000, 2010, and 2020. Also, I replied all to LaundryPizza03 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and SounderBruce (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).
In between 2022 and 2026, Some people notified me on Wikipedia against the Wikipedia Policy:
- No copyrighting
- Controlling line breaks - MOS:NBSP
- Image sizes - MOS:IMGSIZE
- City infobox name - WIKIPEDIA:USCITY - City, State - Sbmeirow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) encouraged me to use Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline
- What is ACS script? Accepted or unaccepted? - I added the 2024 ACS Estimate on the top in the Demographics line.
- Mapframe maps in infoboxes - Red map city limits inside borderline - 636Buster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) encouraged me to use Wikipedia:Mapframe maps in infoboxes
- Hyperprecise coordinates - WP:OPCOORD - 4 digits only, not 6 digits. (D.dddd°, not D.dddddd°)
Most recently, I edited Fayette, Alabama on Wikipedia. Edit summary line: "Added 2024 ACS, 2024 Estimate, 2020 Census, 2010 Census, & 2000 Census in the Demographics. 1990-2020 Ethnicity Box."
CyrusTheMediocre stopped editing the 2020 census. Then second, I fixed it the 2020 census line is the same as the 2000 census line. I will show this. Syntax.
Extended content |
|---|
===2020 census===
As of the [[2020 United States census|2020 census]], there were _ people, _ households, and _ families residing in the city. The population density was {{convert|0|PD/sqmi|PD/km2|1}}. There were _ housing units at an average density of {{convert|0|/sqmi|/km2|1}}. The racial makeup of the city was 0.00% [[White (U.S. Census)|White]], 0.00% [[African American (U.S. Census)|African American]], 0.00% [[Native American (U.S. Census)|Native American]], 0.00% [[Asian (U.S. Census)|Asian]], 0.00% [[Race (U.S. Census)|Pacific Islander]], 0.00% from some other races and 0.00% from two or more races. [[Hispanic and Latino Americans|Hispanic or Latino]] people of any race were 0.00% of the population.
There were _ households out of which _% had children under the age of 18 living with them, _% were [[Marriage|married couples]] living together, _% had a female householder with no husband present, and _% were non-families. _% of all households were made up of individuals and _% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2._ and the average family size was 2._.
In the city the population was spread out with _% under the age of 18, _% from 18 to 24, _% from 25 to 44, _% from 45 to 64, and _% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was _ years. For every 100 females there were _ males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were _ males.
The median income for a household in the city was $_, and the median income for a family was $_. Males had a median income of $_ versus $_ for females. The [[per capita income]] for the city was $_. _% of the population and _% of families were below the [[Poverty threshold|poverty line]]. Out of the total people living in poverty, _% were under the age of 18 and _% were 65 or older.
|
What is "Aside from those additions, the edits by I tend to be full of errors or completely false information"? Bruce told me. Not reliable source for World Population Review, USA Today Newspapers, CensusScope, etc. The U.S. Census Bureau only. But it was hard to edit those cities and counties pages were struggled for two hours. I could not fix the 2020 census for full the sentence. Also, in 2002, Ram-Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) edited and added new pages in most cities, most counties, and most states in all over the United States for the 2000 census for full the sentence in the Demographics.
I used the reliable source for "Table P16: Household Type" and "State: 2010 Census of Population and Housing" Books. Almost two months ago, I saw CyrusTheMediocre edited those cities and counties. Then I clicked "2020 Decennial Census Demographic Profile (DP1)"; "2020 Decennial Census Redistricting Data (Public Law 94-171)"; and "2020 Decennial Census Demographic and Housing Characteristics (DHC)" on API Census. Then I read and saw the API Census' website. API means: "Application Programming Interface".
--Rossdegenstein (talk) 21:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- While we're talking about small errors cropping in, could you clean up your text above? There are a lot of grammar errors which make your meaning difficult to decipher, in places. It does lend a good bit of credence to DatGuy's and Sounderbruce's allegations against you. Ravenswing 02:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- These semi-automated edits allow lots of errors to creep in. Just look at Spring Valley, Arizona. Can someone explain how the math makes sense in this:
There were 592 housing units, of which 11.5% were vacant. The homeowner vacancy rate was 4.5% and the rental vacancy rate was 4.4%.
The average should be between the two subgroups, not over 2X higher. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 02:36, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- The fact that almost the entire census has been added makes the article feel unbalanced - one sentence for geography, three short sentences for education, then a massive section for demographics.
- For example, do we need to know that "15.7% [households] had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older" twenty six years ago? Most of the information feels like it's been put in there for it's own sake, rather than being to improve a readers understanding of the area. Does anyone else get that impression or is it just me?
- I've also noticed that the census information was added but the rest of the article wasn't updated to match it - the lead still refers to 2000 figures, so I'll update that now. I'll also change the "0.0% of residents lived in urban areas, while 100.0% lived in rural areas" part whilst I'm there. Blue-Sonnet 04:37, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- These semi-automated edits allow lots of errors to creep in. Just look at Spring Valley, Arizona. Can someone explain how the math makes sense in this:
The thread below about BlueRaspberryLemonade (talk · contribs) seems relevant; apparently some sort of scripted attempt to deal with one of the prose issues. Is an SPI warranted? Choess (talk) 23:48, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Just filed by @45dogs (courtesy ping!) at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/CyrusTheMediocre. Staraction (talk · contribs) (please ping on reply) 23:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- CyrusTheMediocre has been CU blocked. Should a mass rollback of their contributions occur in order to deal with at least some of the issues? 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 14:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, they should be cleaned up. Most of the issues described in this thread can be fixed with an automated script, and further discussion is required on which information is necessary for which places. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:56, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, please remove everything except the first paragraph and the table, which is the only information that matters for most communities. The impossible housing statistics quoted from Spring Valley, Arizona, were added by CyrusTheMediocre, not Rossdegenstein. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:03, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
Consistent Multi page vandalism
I want to report multiple vandal edits across multiple "List of" articles where the user is removing galleries for no reason. See Special:Contributions/Walle6500. It seems one more user is also involved in the same pattern of vandal edits from which they took reference. See Special:Contributions/GRGO10 Sddarealone (talk) 23:59, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ping @A Frantic Turtle:, @Viewmont Viking:. The user in question repeated their usernames in their first few edits. Either these users authorized them to remove galleries, or they're using these edit summaries as a form of personal attack. Somepinkdude (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes. I pinged both of them. Sddarealone (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I may have bots on the mind from the last few threads, but how is Walle6500 editing three articles a minute, consistently, as a relatively new user? At best, this shows that there's barely any thought going into these edits. Blue-Sonnet 03:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The edit summary was also always exactly "we don't add galleries (of random buildings or anything else) to "list of…" articles" during those bizarre editing sprees. Grilledcheeseisgreat ✉ 04:09, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- This all feels rather pointy, especially since their first ever edit (summary) was "In case of questions, please contact the following wikipedia users: A Frantic Turtle, Viewmont Viking" - I don't think this is Walle6500's first account, it seems to be a second/bot account of GRGO10. Blue-Sonnet 05:22, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- ADDM: I see what triggered it - reversions involving both named editors right before the edit summaries began:
- This is definitely GRGO10 operating both accounts to make a point. Blue-Sonnet 05:26, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- WP has strictly only single account use policy and they seem to be active on both while doing the same disruptive edits. I think WP:SOCK applies here and this should be brought to WP:SPI. Should I do the same? Sddarealone (talk) 09:25, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think, in addition to likely sockpuppetry, this is just plain disruptive. Also, a bit ironic for an account with barely any edits to make mass edits to a bunch of articles saying "we don't add galleries" when: who is "we"? Obviously someone and probably quite a few someones add galleries to a lot of articles. So "we" presumably excludes other editors. I don't know to what extent there are guidelines against such galleries, so have no position on the underlying merits, but this feels like very WP:POINTy disruption. Sławomir Biały (talk) 11:29, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- You can have more than one account, the issue is when you use them deceptively - e.g. pretending to be different people in the same discussion. I was concerned that one of these is an unauthorised bot account since the edits were happening so quickly, but the bigger question is whether they're trying to hide who they originally are by using another account. Blue-Sonnet 13:54, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- WP has strictly only single account use policy and they seem to be active on both while doing the same disruptive edits. I think WP:SOCK applies here and this should be brought to WP:SPI. Should I do the same? Sddarealone (talk) 09:25, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The edit summary was also always exactly "we don't add galleries (of random buildings or anything else) to "list of…" articles" during those bizarre editing sprees. Grilledcheeseisgreat ✉ 04:09, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I may have bots on the mind from the last few threads, but how is Walle6500 editing three articles a minute, consistently, as a relatively new user? At best, this shows that there's barely any thought going into these edits. Blue-Sonnet 03:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes. I pinged both of them. Sddarealone (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
From memory because I’m on my phone and getting diffs etc is a PITA: The original account started adding barely related photo galleries to various 'List of X in Y' articles a month or so ago. They were asked not to by me and VV (and someone else I think). The reason they gave for adding them was that other articles have them, and they were told that that isn’t an argument we use here. The result is as you see: mass removal of the other galleries, in order to get me and VV into trouble, since it’s “our fault” they’re removing them.
The user switched accounts midway, but there was no overlap and SOCK really doesn’t apply. I’ve not reverted nor reported them since that appears to be what they want, and also because the galleries they’re removing don’t add anything useful to the List of X in Y articles they’re removing them from. Basically: I’m not playing along and I don’t care about this. • a frantic turtle 🐢 09:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- What is meant by PITA? Also their opinion doesn't hold importance over long time editors and administrators because we don't manipulate rules to appease the vandals on WP. See WP:UNDUE This is the classic case of WP:Wikilawyering and needs to stop. If we don't then they will add reverse of other rules to say they can do it if not allowed to edit. Something has to be done as this is very serious. Sddarealone (talk) 11:18, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- PITA: Discomfort in one's rump MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 11:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- That seems to be WP:IDL. Bringing emotions to conversations to plainly manipulate shows bad faith to the work and not just WP. Sddarealone (talk) 11:50, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) A Frantic Turtle was referring to retrieving diffs on mobile as difficult. It wasn't aimed at anyone. Fractal-Dreamz ✯ 17:59, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well understood and I agree. I'm currently using wiki on my laptop. Using WP is very hard on mobile especially as my fingers are large. Sddarealone (talk) 18:10, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) A Frantic Turtle was referring to retrieving diffs on mobile as difficult. It wasn't aimed at anyone. Fractal-Dreamz ✯ 17:59, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- That seems to be WP:IDL. Bringing emotions to conversations to plainly manipulate shows bad faith to the work and not just WP. Sddarealone (talk) 11:50, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- PITA: Discomfort in one's rump MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 11:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've blocked both accounts as confirmed sockpuppets. Changing accounts to evade scrutiny is socking. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:37, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Great work. Now if only the vandalizing edits to "list of" articles can be reverted that will complete the restoration of all such articles to it's good form. Sddarealone (talk) 11:53, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Done by Borgenland and myself. There's still a bit of a mess to clean up at List of companies of Germany given the follow-up sock edits. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:50, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Bunch of TA socks by disreputable users there. Borgenland (talk) 12:52, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Pretty much every edit since January seems to be the same person (based on behavioral data and IP data when available). Should we revert all, or separate the wheat from the chaff? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 13:05, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've removed all the trolling summaries mentioned here. Borgenland (talk) 14:36, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think their original account is Walle5000 - this started and finished editing before GRGO10 was registered - you can see them in the edit history for List of companies of Germany. Blue-Sonnet 18:36, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've removed all the trolling summaries mentioned here. Borgenland (talk) 14:36, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Pretty much every edit since January seems to be the same person (based on behavioral data and IP data when available). Should we revert all, or separate the wheat from the chaff? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 13:05, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Bunch of TA socks by disreputable users there. Borgenland (talk) 12:52, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Done by Borgenland and myself. There's still a bit of a mess to clean up at List of companies of Germany given the follow-up sock edits. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:50, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Great work. Now if only the vandalizing edits to "list of" articles can be reverted that will complete the restoration of all such articles to it's good form. Sddarealone (talk) 11:53, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
I'm really trying to continue to not care, but... they were right under WP:IG. I mean, not the disruptive way they went about it, and not the pointy editing and not the trying to cause a pile-on upon me and others with their edit summaries, obviously. But strictly speaking, we ask people not to add galleries of barely related images to articles because they look nice — and photos of the offices of companies mentioned in a list fits that entirely. Of course the rule means "don't add such galleries" not "delete such galleries", but that's a nuance not a red line. And I don't think they were evading scrutiny by changing account midway; nobody would've noticed/cared about them doing so if they weren't doing the pointy editing bit. But... meh. I'm really sorry I can't get up the dander to GAF about this either way. So... okay then? Done and dusted I think? • a frantic turtle 🐢 17:25, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Honestly, if they'd done it whilst making other edits to improve the page then that would have been fine - great even!
- But the first account going mute after this warning, only to reappear one month later to do the same thing (at a rate of three articles every minute) wasn't a good look. I honestly thought it was a bot or something.
- I also suspect they were Walle5000 in the meantime - the name fits and that account also edited List of companies of Germany extensively between the two currently-blocked accounts.
- Hopefully they've got the message and calm down if/when they return! Blue-Sonnet 17:37, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I really don't understand why is @A Frantic Turtle appeasing the hell out of @Walle5000 when the now banned Walle was making disruptive edits on almost every page whilst mocking the edit summary made by Turtle in the first reverts. This is a clear cut observation and can't be stated in any gift-wrapped way. If say we didn't ban walle, some other newcomer will also try to game the edit summaries to their favor on the encyclopedia. I request something like "if you have problem with edit summaries, hit the talk page or RfC" to avoid this menace next time. Sddarealone (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- If I'm right and Walle5000 is GRGO10, I don't think they were technically socking since, at first glance, the W5000 account and the TA's don't seem to have been used maliciously. I also realised I was slightly out with the timeline - they were W5000 first, then GRGO10, then W6500. That's not clear sockpuppetry (evading scrutiny) but it is a bit weird. Blue-Sonnet 18:32, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm not appeasing them, I'm happy with the current outcome, all is well. But... I continue to not care. Truly, I'm sorry, but I can't join you in your outrage. Their edits were not good. They were also not the most harmful I've seen in the last day, let alone the last two months. They're blocked, they've been reverted, it's all fine now. That still doesn't mean that I GAF about this. And I know you want me to, but I don't. Sorry. That's just how it is. I'm okay with my own flaws here. • a frantic turtle 🐢 18:33, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sure you can ignore Walle now that the job is done for good but don't ignore other vandals out here in future. I only caught the user 6 days after you and till then tens of many articles were already vandalized. If its becoming hard to counter vandals, just take a break and do something else. Happy editing! Sddarealone (talk) 18:41, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Okay, we’ve been skirting this on my talk page and here, but now it comes out plainly: you are unhappy that I’m not ragingly unhappy with this editor’s edits. That is not the same as me “ignoring vandals” and such an accusation is a personal attack and you should be ashamed of it. Please direct further criticism of me not caring as deeply about minor matters directly to my talk page in future because the attempt to shame me on this is no different than the editor in question naming me in the summaries of their disruptive edits.
- This thread should now be closed, please, because no good will come of it remaining open. • a frantic turtle 🐢 20:01, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Fine. I apologize for my insolent comments on you. You did the right thing that you wanted. Have a good day @A Frantic Turtle Sddarealone (talk) 20:06, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sure you can ignore Walle now that the job is done for good but don't ignore other vandals out here in future. I only caught the user 6 days after you and till then tens of many articles were already vandalized. If its becoming hard to counter vandals, just take a break and do something else. Happy editing! Sddarealone (talk) 18:41, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Given that their motives for removal was just plain sourgraping, and since I could not find any valid reason for them to sock, I don’t think they should come within 100 miles of any Company-related articles. Borgenland (talk) 02:11, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I really don't understand why is @A Frantic Turtle appeasing the hell out of @Walle5000 when the now banned Walle was making disruptive edits on almost every page whilst mocking the edit summary made by Turtle in the first reverts. This is a clear cut observation and can't be stated in any gift-wrapped way. If say we didn't ban walle, some other newcomer will also try to game the edit summaries to their favor on the encyclopedia. I request something like "if you have problem with edit summaries, hit the talk page or RfC" to avoid this menace next time. Sddarealone (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
Repeated violation of WP:OVERLINK by user ~2026-60245-5
User @~2026-60245-5 has been violating WP:OVERLINK by repeatedly adding unnecessary links to several articles. I have left several talk page warnings on his page, warning him to not add overlinks. Despite this, he persists in violating this rule and has not even responded to any of my comments. Please ban this user. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 03:32, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I don't think we're going to go instantly to a ban, but yeah, there's some absolutely brutal overlinking here. More than a third of this editor's edits have been reverted, typically for the same reasons, and there are more unheeded warnings on their talk page than on a pack of cigarettes. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 03:46, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've been warning them a lot but they haven't even bothered explaining themselves. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 03:52, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Looking at their previous TA's this has been a problem since January; they've never used their own Talk and have only used article Talk pages twice:
- I suspect we're dealing with a young editor who doesn't realise they've got their own Talk page? Blue Sonnet (talk) 04:11, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Don't know about young, but certainly an editor who appears to see any noun not wearing brackets as scandalously nude. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 04:16, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Wait, the second diff referenced Chucklevision - I stand corrected. Blue Sonnet (talk) 04:20, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Back in the 90s, I had an oddly encyclopedic level of knowledge of Are You Being Served? for a male American teenager. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 05:26, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- 70's sitcoms were all over the place back then! Balamory is 20yrs old (!) so whilst there are repeats, I think my original assessment of this being a younger editor was in error.
- They're currently flitting back and forth between two TA's so it'll be difficult to get their attention. Not all of their edits are bad so we really just need to get them to understand overlinking. Blue Sonnet (talk) 10:52, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- What's the second TA? NarutoSan6000 (talk) 13:33, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- ~2026-25667-45 CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, the TAIV history shows:
- User:~2026-60245-5
- User:~2026-25667-45
- User:~2026-21152-6
- It's the bottom one that goes back to January and shows this is a long-term pattern of overlinking. Blue Sonnet (talk) 13:48, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Update: user has persisted once more with the overlink:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frankenstein_(2025_film)&diff=prev&oldid=1351428289
- I suggest that since this user is so persistent and clearly has not learned his lesson or even bothered to read my (or the other editors') comments, that this user receive a block. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- It appears that the user has caught onto the track and has deactivated the temporary account. Drat, that means we'll need to wait until he performs another edit in order to catch him. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 00:30, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing any new TA posting on the IP address range from the user. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:35, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'll keep monitoring the pages he's targeting and report here if I spot a disturbance. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 00:36, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- UPDATE: User @~2026-25721-88 has made VERY similar overlink edits to articles targeted by the TA, such as Vandal Savage. I have given him two warnings which he has disregarded. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 23:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Same IP as the others, looks like they just got a new TA. Blue-Sonnet 00:16, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- UPDATE: User @~2026-25721-88 has made VERY similar overlink edits to articles targeted by the TA, such as Vandal Savage. I have given him two warnings which he has disregarded. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 23:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'll keep monitoring the pages he's targeting and report here if I spot a disturbance. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 00:36, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing any new TA posting on the IP address range from the user. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:35, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- It appears that the user has caught onto the track and has deactivated the temporary account. Drat, that means we'll need to wait until he performs another edit in order to catch him. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 00:30, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- What's the second TA? NarutoSan6000 (talk) 13:33, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Back in the 90s, I had an oddly encyclopedic level of knowledge of Are You Being Served? for a male American teenager. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 05:26, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Wait, the second diff referenced Chucklevision - I stand corrected. Blue Sonnet (talk) 04:20, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- It may be a case of WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU, a lot of their edits are tagged as "Mobile web edit." MolecularPilot Talk 00:17, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm on mobile and there a giant red circle on the top right whenever there's a new notification, I suppose someone can miss that but I'm completely unable to! Then again desktop editors have said they've missed notifications too, so there's not much we can do short of a klaxon or pop-up, but neither are likely to be implemented anytime soon. Blue-Sonnet 00:41, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- The best solution to do so is just to impose a block on the IP in general, tbh it will solve the issue a lot better as whoever is making those edits won't be able to hop between the TAs. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 00:58, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant about people missing the giant notifications bubble - but a block is definitely needed here, it's just a question of whether a TA block will get their attention or is a full IP block needed? An admin will know that best, since we haven't tried blocking the TA yet & that might be enough. Blue-Sonnet 01:25, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- The best solution to do so is just to impose a block on the IP in general, tbh it will solve the issue a lot better as whoever is making those edits won't be able to hop between the TAs. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 00:58, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I took a look at the linking behavior. Oh my! And them hopping TAs doesn't help with communication. I've blocked the underlying IPv6 /64 for one month with a link to this discussion in the block log. Hopefully that'll get them to respond. At the very least, it'll stop the disruption. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:42, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks rsjaffe! NarutoSan6000 (talk) 03:46, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm on mobile and there a giant red circle on the top right whenever there's a new notification, I suppose someone can miss that but I'm completely unable to! Then again desktop editors have said they've missed notifications too, so there's not much we can do short of a klaxon or pop-up, but neither are likely to be implemented anytime soon. Blue-Sonnet 00:41, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Don't know about young, but certainly an editor who appears to see any noun not wearing brackets as scandalously nude. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 04:16, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've been warning them a lot but they haven't even bothered explaining themselves. NarutoSan6000 (talk) 03:52, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
user:Keegan robberstond
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Keegan robberstond (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
with AIV goldlocked, i am reporting here. obvious troll. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 03:48, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- WP:AIV looks fine to me, I can see people are currently editing it? There's a new report from two minutes ago. Blue-Sonnet 04:03, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- it was locked when i posted this, or just unlocked. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 04:06, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ooh, I see an LTA was spamming earlier, they must have done that to get a handle on it whilst blocking them... Looks like it's sorted now. Blue-Sonnet 04:20, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- it was locked when i posted this, or just unlocked. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 04:06, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Page deleted, indeffed. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 04:27, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Diogo sfreitas - unsourced additions and now fake sources
Diogo sfreitas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a tall page full of user warnings for unsourced content, and their recent edits shows that they care little for providing them - Added the allegedly needed sources. One by one.
This was reverted by the way, as the sources added did not exist. Today, they copied an existing source from the page to create the illusion that there was a citation. The source added was a 2023 timetable, and the very first route I sanity checked (airBaltic Madeira > Tallinn) didn’t start until 2025 - so it’s obvious they haven’t read the source at all. Finally, they have now taken to mass removal of parts of sources for no apparent reason - .
Can someone perhaps make it clear to this editor that providing sources is far from a basic technicality done to satisfy other editors, and is actually a fundamental part of what Wikipedia is? Danners430 tweaks made 17:36, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
Diogo sfreitas (talk) 17:52, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- This comment is clearly AI generated, which doesn't really indicate a lot of goodwill or effort on your part. Athanelar (talk) 18:14, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- It’s worth saying they’re continuing to respond on their talk page. @Diogo sfreitas: - would you care to actually respond to us? And no, your comment above doesn’t count - we want to talk to you, not a machine. Danners430 tweaks made 18:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've asked them to rejoin the discussion.
- Their response to my AI warning template was "You have to calm down a bit. I am tired", but I'm not quite sure what they meant since that was my only post. Blue-Sonnet 03:13, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It’s worth saying they’re continuing to respond on their talk page. @Diogo sfreitas: - would you care to actually respond to us? And no, your comment above doesn’t count - we want to talk to you, not a machine. Danners430 tweaks made 18:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- This comment is clearly AI generated, which doesn't really indicate a lot of goodwill or effort on your part. Athanelar (talk) 18:14, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Just commenting to keep the thread open since they still haven't responded Danners430 tweaks made 14:05, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Disruptive edits by adding excess images in infobox
Also WP:Personal attacks to multiple users and appears to be unconstructive in article talk page discussions. See Talk:Bihar#Too many photos in the infobox Special:Contributions/Varoon2542 and User talk:Varoon2542#April 2026 Sddarealone (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Sddarealone: please could you provide diffs of personal attacks by Varoon2542.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:05, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Here: diff1 diff2diff3
- diff4diff5diff6
- Some earlier ones -
- diff7diff8 Sddarealone (talk) 13:27, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- What about ?
- This is the classic whataboutism that you're running here which will not work. An article can have no images in it's infobox and still can be accepted. Add too many images and that makes the infobox larger. Not everyone is interested in looking at images rather than the condensed information shown in infobox. You reverted the same edits twice. Read WP:3RR and WP:CIVIL Sddarealone (talk) 19:01, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Varoon2542 (talk) 13:36, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're proving my point. There's no justification for using more than 6 images which will make the infobox longer. Other users have resonated the same. You have made 2 reverts for keeping your edit on that page also. Sddarealone (talk) 14:08, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- What about ?
I accidentally broke my wikipedia...
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I added code from a wikipedia essay, and now I broke it. HELP!!! AZenit3 (talk) 00:47, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Never mind, I managed to fix it by quickly presssing the "edit source" button before the script loaded... AZenit3 (talk) 00:51, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- What did you even do? SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 00:57, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- For the record, if you do that again, disable javascript in your browser prefs so you can get to the page and revert it. Mfield (Oi!) 00:58, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Just as a followup and to increase visibility because it's easy to forget when in a personal-crisis situation, Help:Safe mode has some other approaches. DMacks (talk) 12:07, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've no idea what they did, but I think they know not to do it again. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:08, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Suspect Stanigator undisclosed paid editing for Colleen Hardwick
- Stanigator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
See Talk:Colleen Hardwick#Formal Request for Corrections: BLP, NPOV, and Weight Issues for context. Hardwick has previously edited this article herself, so is clearly aware of it and tracking what's going on it.
Stanigator made an edit request to the article (AI text wall) that was rejected. They wrote this draft replacement for the article, User:Stanigator/sandbox/Colleen Hardwick, which is really overtly complimentary.
This next bit took place in the WP:DISCORD help channel, so take this as you will; it's off Wiki evidence. Stanigator asked for what they could improve for the edit request. I asked them if they had any professional connection to Hardwick, Stanigator said they had personal communication but were not paid to edit. They got defensive when me and others pressed them.
I googled their username and found an account on Fiverr advertising marketing writing services: fiverr (dot) com/stanigator/create-a-marketing-strategy. They have several different job postings for marketing writing-type work; that's just one of them. I strongly suspect Hardwick hired Stanigator to manipulate the article. grapesurgeon (talk) 07:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- While I had a Fiverr profile for this, it has been inactive for years. I haven't accepted a dime through this. Stanigator (talk) 07:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- TBF it does say that it's on hold and there are no reviews less then nine years old. That sandbox article is very promotional, however. Blue-Sonnet 07:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I do admit that the sandbox article may have been too promotional. That being said, I could've made more money writing other types of promotions rather than work on this. I'm gonna lay off of this for now while building up my street cred working on something else when I can. Stanigator (talk) 08:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Can I ask, did you know Colleen already or were you contacted specifically about this article?
- Obviously don't disclose anything personal or that you're not comfortable with, but it could be helpful to have a bit of context. Blue-Sonnet 08:06, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I do admit that the sandbox article may have been too promotional. That being said, I could've made more money writing other types of promotions rather than work on this. I'm gonna lay off of this for now while building up my street cred working on something else when I can. Stanigator (talk) 08:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- TBF it does say that it's on hold and there are no reviews less then nine years old. That sandbox article is very promotional, however. Blue-Sonnet 07:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Would this not be more appropriate for WP:COIN? Padgriffin (Squawk) 15:46, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Danfosky case
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This user Danfosky was globally blocked on May 5, 2026, after being reported by two ptwiki users for promoting pedophilia, and their page on the English project remains active with a problematic image here. The user was reported to the WMF and should be brought to the attention of the responsible authorities, but their account was not blocked on this project, and the user page still contains a problematic image alluding to the fetish of Hebephilia (sexual interest of an adult in pubescent or newly pubescent individuals (pre-adolescents)). How should this situation be handled? Klebs1 (talk) 22:31, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I just removed that image from their user page, but an Administrator will have to revdel it, or just delete the whole page at this point. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 22:42, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- @SuperJames888 okay, thanks Klebs1 (talk) 23:16, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Can an Administrator delete the userpage as just revdeleting the removal I did probably wouldn't work. The account, I can also confirm, is globally locked. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 23:58, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Deleted, citing this discussion @SuperJames888 Star Mississippi 00:21, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you! SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 00:24, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Deleted, citing this discussion @SuperJames888 Star Mississippi 00:21, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Floyd Vivino nuisance edits
Several accounts keep trying to change the birth name of Floyd Vivino from Florio to Floyd. No matter how many times, User:NJZombie or I explain that his birth name Florio is supported by WP:RS including his Legacy.com obituary, they keep coming back. At least one of the accounts is the name of a staff member User:David Burd on the Uncle Floyd show who uses the alias User:Artie Delmar on the show]. Both accounts have edited the page and not disclosed their WP:COI. More edits of the same type were made by IP accounts User:~2026-23797-69, User:~2026-25334-58, User:~2026-25820-45 and also User:Matt-Dimension-C136.
Problem edit diffs are here, here, here, here, and here.
Warnings were given at User talk:David Burd, who then responded on my page User talk:Kire1975 accusing "someone" of vandalism for "changing his birth name" to the well-sourced Florio. After that, User:Matt-Dimension-C136 responded on User talk:David Burd by attacking Wikipedians, claiming Burd was justificed because I've NEVER heard him be referred to as Florio
. After I posted a link to the Legacy.com obituary that says he was "Born Florio Vivinio" , Matt-Dimension cited the same obituary in the edit summary to attempt to justify why the page should say he was born Floyd. This was followed by another comment by Matt-Dimension attacking other editors by calling them that a**holes
who should shut up.This was quickly followed by another edit bu an IP user citing the Legacy.com article to justify the wrong name.
I don't have the ability to, or am not aware of a way to, check the IPs to see who is the sockpuppet of whom, but it is either one person using all six accounts or at least two people who are both using sockpuppet accounts to be nuisances trying to change a beloved public figure's birthname. This page was under attack earlier this year by another user, shortly after the subject of the page died in January. I hope that the administrators can apply an appropriate remedy and let Uncle Floyd rest in peace. Kire1975 (talk) 18:11, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'd have to suggest that the legacy.com obituary (written by 'Legacy Remembers') is questionable as a source. Not that it would justify edit-warring over. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:19, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's not a controversial claim, but Deadline is also already cited in the infobox. Other sources are here, here, here and here. Kire1975 (talk) 18:40, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- TAIV doesn't show anything in common between the TA's - they're located across one large country and all have different ISP's. Blue Sonnet (talk) 22:30, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- That's surprising. Thanks for looking it up. Kire1975 (talk) 22:52, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Surprised me too, maybe there's a Reddit thread somewhere complaining about it, that's happened before. There's also a mention of a fan club with 13,000 members on his article, perhaps a few of them got together?
- Or there's a proxy/VPN that's not showing on my results...
- CU would probably see more than I can, perhaps an SPI might be worthwhile if anyone thinks it's more than a few unhappy fans. Blue Sonnet (talk) 23:32, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I would not recommend an SPI. The admin corps is overworked enough as it is, and from all indications, the issue is limited to one article... I think the normal tool set can deal with this. Marcus Markup (talk) 23:44, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- What is an SPI?
- In any case, I don't think it needs an administrator action as yet. It's been on my watchlist since he died and NJZombie's since at least 2010, it seems. We will continue to do watch, and give warnings and make reversions as necessary and in line with WP policies. Thanks again. Kire1975 (talk) 00:11, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, it's a Sockpuppet investigation. You usually need to present evidence that accounts are linked, things like reinstating edits of an earlier account or similar behavioural patterns. I haven't brought this to SPI myself because of the TA findings and my suspicion that this could possibly be a group of different people who heard about this elsewhere (Reddit/fanclub/etc.) Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:22, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Please see the official Uncle Floyd website which publicly states that his name is Floyd not Florio, I mean for christ sakes how much more official do you have to get and by the way I resent being accused of being a sockpuppet. If the admins look in the logs you can check and see that my IP address is in Florida and User:David Burd is elsewhere. Making false accusations is defamation and I not tolerate being defamed will file a lawsuit against any person who defames me PERIOD!! So let's just get this over and have User:NJZombie admit they were WRONG! and put the right information and let that be the end of it. Matt-Dimension-C136 (talk) 20:13, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hi. We have a strong policy against making legal threats on Wikipedia. You may want to read that policy. I think it's very plausible that indeed the name Florio is spurious, but we need to work together on establishing this. Morwen (talk) 20:38, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Nobody accused you of being David Burd, just as nobody accused you of attacking them either. What was said was that other anonymous accounts were making the same exact edits you were making and leaving similar summaries and it was heavily suspected that it was the same person, which I still suspect to be the case. The comment about me being wrong is irrelevant as well as I’ve already explained at Talk:Floyd Vivino that we go with cited sources and that’s what the cited sources state. Vivino’s official site can’t be used either. Wikipedia relies on third-party sources, which official websites are not. I couldn’t care less what the actual name is. However, you’re not going to strongarm the change through against the site’s guidelines and procedures. NJZombie (talk) 20:43, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Matt-Dimension-C136: Please strike your legal threat above per WP:NLT. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:13, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- In addition to the legal threat above, Matt-Dimension has accused another editor of making false accusations without evidence and called other editors WP:ASSHOLEs. Kire1975 (talk) 06:44, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- If the legal threat is withdrawn/no further action is taken, I'm wondering whether a TBAN or PBLOCK might be appropriate. It appears that they're unable to edit this subject in a calm, neutral manner - it seems to be restricted to this one article so perhaps a block from this one page is reasonable? Blue-Sonnet 15:38, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- They've returned to clear their Talk page but nothing else yet - the legal threat hasn't been withdrawn after nearly three days. Blue-Sonnet 03:46, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- In addition to the legal threat above, Matt-Dimension has accused another editor of making false accusations without evidence and called other editors WP:ASSHOLEs. Kire1975 (talk) 06:44, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- I would not recommend an SPI. The admin corps is overworked enough as it is, and from all indications, the issue is limited to one article... I think the normal tool set can deal with this. Marcus Markup (talk) 23:44, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- That's surprising. Thanks for looking it up. Kire1975 (talk) 22:52, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- TAIV doesn't show anything in common between the TA's - they're located across one large country and all have different ISP's. Blue Sonnet (talk) 22:30, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's not a controversial claim, but Deadline is also already cited in the infobox. Other sources are here, here, here and here. Kire1975 (talk) 18:40, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Excepting the edit warring and legal threats, the Florio/Floyd name issue has been resolved in the talk page as an example of citogenesis. A local newspaper once used the name Florio for him, it was added assuming it was his real name just before he died, and obituaries seem to have picked it up from Wikipedia. See Talk:Floyd Vivino#Floyd or Florio?. Kire1975, this reminds me of the dispute you got into about another musician that saw you topic banned and interaction banned for a time. You received another IBAN last year. Please lower the heat, particularly in relation to living people. Fences&Windows 09:52, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Matt-Dimension-C136 didn't lower the heat or withdraw the outstanding legal threat, we're onto personal attacks - apparently I'm a little daisy (haven't been called that since I was a child):
- I'm not going to respond because it would probably just make things worse, plus they've actively threatened to sue anyone who they feel "defames" them, a legal threat to due anyone that "defames" them that remains active and outstanding for nearly a week now. I will say that I wasn't offended, I don't know where that came from - I was concerned that this editor would continue to be disruptive. Blue-Sonnet 22:53, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, it’s abundantly clear that this editor is simply WP:NOTHERE. NJZombie (talk) 23:29, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Normally I'd respond to try to straighten things out and/or add a warning for personal attacks, but I'm just not comfortable doing that with someone who has threatened to sue Wikipedia editors - I'm going to leave this for an admin.
- BTW Daisies are awesome, especially the ones that have a tiny bit of pink on the petals! They're pretty resilient considering their size & a large amount of the population have tried to make them into chain at some point. So I'm neither offended nor insulted, I guess! Blue-Sonnet 23:43, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet Ha! Chain... David10244 (talk) 04:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, it’s abundantly clear that this editor is simply WP:NOTHERE. NJZombie (talk) 23:29, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- It WAS resolved but not by the editors who made the complaint, refused to participate in discussion of the issue, edit warred, casted aspersion, and insulted other editors. Unfortunately, some of that behavior continues today unchecked. NJZombie (talk) 23:31, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- As they have not retracted the legal threat made above, Matt-Dimension-C136 has been indefinitely blocked per WP:NLT. If they retract the threat anyone can unblock without needing to poke me. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:25, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Their response to the block was illustrative. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Could be worse, they could have called you a pansy or a daffodil... Blue-Sonnet 04:44, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Is there a point where we finally remove access to their talk page as well? Despite the suggestion to just walk away or the "Fuck you and Fuck Wikipedia. I am OUTTA HERE!!! line, I get the sense that this is going to continue. NJZombie (talk) 06:43, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Fingers crossed they're just venting. If they continue then definitely consider it, for now I'm hoping that's the end of it & they just wanted to get the last word in. Blue-Sonnet aka "Daisy" 07:36, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'd settle for "Salvia". - The Bushranger One ping only 20:34, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Fingers crossed they're just venting. If they continue then definitely consider it, for now I'm hoping that's the end of it & they just wanted to get the last word in. Blue-Sonnet aka "Daisy" 07:36, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Their response to the block was illustrative. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
POV pusher at Ilie Bolojan
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
~2026-27258-06 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been POV pushing at Ilie Bolojan following his removal from the position of Prime Minister of Romania in full capacity but acting as PM. The first edits they made were okay, and were left alone untill around 13:35 UTC time when they made this edit where they erroneously said in their edit summary: "CAN YOU GUYS PLEASE STOP ADDING ARTICLES IN ROMANIAN TO AN ENGLISH WKP PAGE?!" in reference to the Romanian source that was originally there.
Then, they said in their edit summary on this edit, where they removed a ukrainian source: " It is not the place to make propaganda about other romanian politicians. The article contains -as i stated- ukrainian propaganda about George Simion. Please post that article on his page, not on this page. Thx"
Then, here we get to the truth bomb, the main reason why I brought the TA to ANI:
"I love how foreigners act like they know better than me. I am romanian, i know the law, i am right, you are wrong."
Then, when they didnt get their way: they completely blanked the lede paragraph of the page.
~2026-24464-63 (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Looks like Voorts sent them packing indefinitely. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:48, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yep, blocked indefinitely. We are done here. Galaxybeing (talk) 02:42, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Revoke tpa – Drnavin007
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Drnavin007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – see: --みんな空の下 (トーク) 09:51, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Aetherialopulentus
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Aetherialopulentus (talk · contribs), currently on a 72 hour block for harassment, is using their talk page to repeatedly post personal attacks. Given that one of those attacks includes a request that they be blocked permanently, I think it would be not unreasonable to accede to that request. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:11, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- See ("I literally don't care about any of you. Block me! I never want to use this cursed forum again! You are jokes! Block me! Or are you scared?") --Guy Macon (talk) 23:45, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've blocked and removed TPA. I feel like they're a sock of someone; too familiar with Wikipedia, their insistence they won't come back but do anyway. 331dot (talk) 23:47, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sometime in my remaining time on this planet, I hope to desire something as much as someone who angrily yells that they don't want to be on Wikipedia ever again desires to be able to edit on Wikipedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 02:02, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- CoffeeCrumbs, if I fully understood what you wrote, I am sure that I would agree with you. Cullen328 (talk) 02:38, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I fixed a typo that made the sentence a bit harder to understand. It may not help though; I have an editor who always finds sentences of mine that only make sense to precisely me. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 02:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- CoffeeCrumbs, if I fully understood what you wrote, I am sure that I would agree with you. Cullen328 (talk) 02:38, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Re: "...their insistence they won't come back but do anyway":
-
- "In the clearing stands a boxer, and a fighter by his trade;
- "And he carries the reminders, of every glove that laid him down,
- or cut him till he cried out, in his anger and his shame;
- 'I am leaving, I am leaving', But the fighter still remains..."
- --The Boxer, by Simon & Garfunkel
- --Guy Macon (talk) 02:47, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sometime in my remaining time on this planet, I hope to desire something as much as someone who angrily yells that they don't want to be on Wikipedia ever again desires to be able to edit on Wikipedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 02:02, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've blocked and removed TPA. I feel like they're a sock of someone; too familiar with Wikipedia, their insistence they won't come back but do anyway. 331dot (talk) 23:47, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Block evasion
@~2026-27414-57 has been blocked as 13 prior TAs. Please IP block. Thank you.Dafootballguy | Want to talk? 02:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- These are all the prior TAs which are all blocked.
- ~2026-22152-40
- ~2026-21769-22
- ~2026-20653-78
- ~2026-20132-90
- ~2026-20215-11
- ~2026-19835-43
- ~2026-17723-03
- ~2026-16449-36
- ~2026-15671-78
- ~2026-15135-71
- ~2026-13979-00
- ~2026-13661-59
- ~2026-12551-03 Dafootballguy | Want to talk? 02:44, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi @Dafootballguy, TA's can be brought to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations for investigation and blocking - you just need to use the oldest TA/account as the original. I'm not sure who the master is so I'm unsure if there's an SPI for them already? Wikipedia searches on mobile are perpetually broken so I can't use searches that are embedded within other pages & the master isn't noted. Still needs an IP block though!
- Courtesy link for readers: Special:Contributions/~2026-27414-57 Blue-Sonnet 09:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Continuing disruptive edits by JJNito197
As I'm sure you know, "JJNito197 [was] indefinitely banned from editing about the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed" just 9 days ago, on April 25: This was at least partially due to his behavior on the talk:Ashkenazi Jews page and the talk:Israelites page. However, he was apparently not banned from these two pages. Now there has been continuing disruptive behavior there.
1. Badgering. After the RFC on the Ashkenazi Jews page, he started a nearly identical RFC about a week later, using the same arguments as before. In 1020 words (by my count) across 19 comments, there is only one mention of any sources at all. But he browbeats with his same argument numerous times:
"It is WP:SYNTH to link modern day groups genetically with characters from the Bible." "Using WP:SYNTH to link Canaanite DNA to Israelites is a "claim", not reality." "It's unsourced and WP SYNTH." "Acquaint yourself with WP:SYNTH." "See above for WP:SYNTH" "It's categorically WP SYNTH" and more of the same, for a total of 15 mentions such as these, culminating in this comment where he asks me, "Do you know what WP SYNTH is?" and followed by this comment where he says, "Read WP:SYNTH and see the sources I provided, or rather the sources you are defending currently, which is acting in contravention of this fundemental tenet. I'm right dude. Burden is yours to disprove this isn't WP SYNTH, not me. Bring better sources to the table. The uninitiated can see this, patently."
I would ask if his ban could be extended to Levantine history? If not, can it be extended to Jewish history? If not, can it be extended to Israelites and Ashkenazi Jews?
Thank you for your time, and please let me know if I have not done something according to proper procedure.Slava570 (talk) 19:57, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Have you notified JJNito197 about this posting? that is required. Simonm223 (talk) 20:00, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Also, and I want to be clear that this does not speak to your comportment in the slightest @Slava570 as you quite correctly stated that it was not the right venue, but this is highly irregular. I will notify the editor who created that thread that I've mentioned them at AN/I because I think it's alarming to see such a thread at any article talk page and I'd be curious to kno why they thought that was an appropriate action. Simonm223 (talk) 20:04, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm very new at this and I was having difficulty doing it. I hope the format will be acceptable and I think JJNito197 will receive it. Slava570 (talk) 20:17, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- There seems to be some agreement that I was wrong to ask how to move forward with improving the Israelites page at the Israelites talk page. I’m sorry for not knowing a better way to ask how to move forward, and I’m sorry for asking in the wrong place.
- In my view, The Bushranger sums up the community’s frustration pretty well here.
- Since this is the third time the exact same issue concerning the exact same article is being brought to a board, and since the exact same style of disruption continues, I do support a community ban of JJNito197 from Israelites and Ashkenazi Jews. If there is some other lesser remedy that can cause the disruption to stop so that we can move ahead with improvements, I would happily support that instead. Mikewem (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It was the fact that you wanted to discuss a CBAN on an article Talk page, which isn't the place to discuss the conduct of individual editors.
- Community bans should be discussed at an administrator noticeboard, since article Talk pages are for discussing the relevant article. Blue-Sonnet 21:17, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- On the basis of the situation at that article talk page I would not countenance any CBANS although it might be wise to give the three of them 2-way ibans. Simonm223 (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) I have hatted that discussion. Chess enjoyer (talk) 21:21, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- That heading also needs to be changed per WP:TALKHEADPOV, but I don't know what to change it to. Chess enjoyer (talk) 21:27, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Stop rehashing things that have already been dealt with by admins, over and over, including with an injunction a week ago which I am acting in accordance too. I extend my warning to @Slava570 over WP:Wikistalking and WP:Harassment the same as Mikewem . A response I gave to an editor and agreeing with an admin and their proposals does not constitute "disruptive editing". I even reached out to an admin a clarified it separately. I formally request something to stop me from dealing with these editors @Slava570 and @Mikewem. There is severe case WP:OWNERSHIP going on with that article and @Mikewem should say something as they are the one who instigated it, then conspired about it on talk. ] They just don't like that an admin has now agreed WP SYNTH is being used and gave a proposal to improve the article. It makes them look silly as they had fingers in their ears pretending the status quo was sufficent. It's clear some editors can't operate in the parameters of neutrality for the betterment of our readership, or can't recognise when an editor is doing so, so has to attach some ulterior motive. Mikewem also had the same battleground mentality on another discussion he opened specifically for me ...and again ...and again. So 3 talk page discussions opened specifically to ostracise me and stop me from editing in good faith or to stop me from speaking. I am being wikistalked severely and stalked off site by actors acting in unison. JJNito197 (talk) 21:33, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- These are new charges from after the injunction. If you had changed your behavior, you could have avoided this. You should have been extra careful not to engage in personal attacks (at least for a couple weeks or so). I don't remember ever being "warned" by you, and speaking for myself only, I never wikistalked you in the least. Slava570 (talk) 22:02, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It doesn't relate to the injunction. If you are talking about "new charges", I think you were refering to the response I made to an editor on the talk page. Thats not disruption, that was a comment made to another editor about me not contesting when the RFC ends, and agreeing with the admins proposals which would make me end the RFC before the timer. That was the entire proposal on the entire talk page by the way, and I agreed with it. Thats me trying to improve the project. I was right all along, WP SYNTH is being used. JJNito197 (talk) 22:31, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Those are quite serious accusations, can you please provide diffs of either editor stalking your edits and harassing you? So far you haven't provided any evidence of either allegation, only of the dispute you're having on that article. You've specifically alleged that both editors are
singling out ...one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work.
Blue-Sonnet 22:33, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- These are new charges from after the injunction. If you had changed your behavior, you could have avoided this. You should have been extra careful not to engage in personal attacks (at least for a couple weeks or so). I don't remember ever being "warned" by you, and speaking for myself only, I never wikistalked you in the least. Slava570 (talk) 22:02, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Reading Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Administrators permitted to topic ban from a wider area, the appropriate place to evaluate a broader ban is the Arbitration Enforcement Noticeboard, and I suggest that this be followed-up there instead of continuing here. If a request is filed there, this should be closed to avoid having duplicate processes underway. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:42, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think this might be the best course of action. Simonm223 (talk) 22:52, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Is it possible to copy this thread there or would I have to start all over? If it can be copied, is there any way someone can help me with that? If not, then let's just close this for now, and I'll try again tomorrow... Slava570 (talk) 22:53, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's on the ANI I opened here, where the editor was exposed tag-teaming with a blocked sock . My concerns were raised regarding off-site coordination, which has increased. I still assume good faith. Everything has been dealt over with admins less than a week ago. If responding to a comment constitues disruption, please just tell me. I will ignore editors who ask me questions. Thats why this was raised and also that editors just don't want me to edit or comment to other editors. Even when I agree with proposals to improve the article. I already clarified with an admin regarding my edits, which have nothing to do with the Arab Israeli conflict. JJNito197 (talk) 22:58, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Arbitration enforcement has very specific and particular standards and, if any of you decide intervention must continue, I would strongly recommend reviewing those requirements with great care. Walking away remains an option. And walking away from this conflict is something any of you would be wise to do. Simonm223 (talk) 23:06, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's on the ANI I opened here, where the editor was exposed tag-teaming with a blocked sock . My concerns were raised regarding off-site coordination, which has increased. I still assume good faith. Everything has been dealt over with admins less than a week ago. If responding to a comment constitues disruption, please just tell me. I will ignore editors who ask me questions. Thats why this was raised and also that editors just don't want me to edit or comment to other editors. Even when I agree with proposals to improve the article. I already clarified with an admin regarding my edits, which have nothing to do with the Arab Israeli conflict. JJNito197 (talk) 22:58, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- So, I am not happy being in the position of saying it--because it certainly would be the easiest and most efficient thing in terms of community bandwidth to let any further discussion become adjunct to the existing ARBPIA-CTOP determination w/ regard to JJNito--but having reviewed that thread and the disputes at talk:Ashkenazi Jews and talk:Israelites, I'm not really sure that is an option here. While JJNito's behaviour at articles pertaining to historical Jewish culture and ethnography was cited in that discussion, it is presumably the involvement of the Golan Heights article from which the responding admins at WP:AE felt they were deriving cause to apply the discretionary TBAN. Vanamonde93 can correct me if I am wrong about that though. In any event, I think ArbCom has been very careful to try--as best it can, all interrelation of the topics considered--to create a bulwark between the CTOP scheme with regard to modern Israli-Arab conflicts, and all other things Jewish or Arab. In other words, disruptive behaviour in areas pertaining to historical or insular topics about these cultures generally don't trigger sanctions under the CTOP scheme, and admins at AE may be hesitant to extend an existing TBAN to cover such topics under ARBPIA. I don't know, my read there may be inaccurate (I tend to only edit in PIA incidentally through RfC and content fora requests) but that is my concern anyway. If there's going to be a further TBAN regarding these two articles and the general topic of the origins of the Jewish people, it may need to be issued by the community here. For whatever it's worth, having reviewed the article talk page discussions at some length, i have mixed feelings about JJNito's conduct there: on the one hand, some of their editorial positions are not unreasonable and they are hardly the only party driving the battle of wills, but on the other, they are repeatedly deploying rhetoric that is far more bombastic and divisive than is necessary. But I do think it is worth noting that the discussion they are currently involved in is an RfC that was started before their PIA TBAN--at the very least, they didn't choose to jump into the topic immediately after the implementation of the sanction, which I do feel is relevant to the question of whether they are exercising good judgment. SnowRise let's rap 06:52, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- A rough consensus at AE can broaden a tban of PIA, per this. Valereee (talk) 12:11, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Just to add onto @Snow Rise I am not particularly impressed with anyone's involvement with this dispute. For the purposes of disclosure I did participate in the RfC at Talk:Ashkenazi Jews and as such may be considered slightly involved. But this is what motivated me, above, to tell the three original involved participants to walk away from this. JJNito197 has not behaved perfectly and I think the TBAN they did get was appropriate. Furthermore appeals to admin authority in the context of a content dispute are not great comportment and may have a chilling effect on content discussions. When it comes to adjudicating a content dispute an admin is just the same as any other editor. But starting threads on article talk and openly collaborating at user talk to frame an AN/I thread to remove a person with whom you have a content dispute is a deeply alarming pattern of behaviour. And, honestly, that edit wasn't a good look between the scolding edit summary, their prior non-involvement in purely archaeological articles and the dependence on a newspaper source for a purely archaeological article, it does kind of look like Mikewem went looking for an opportunity to tweak JJnito197's nose, so to speak, in a topic where they seem unaware of the quality of available sources. They should probably look at Wikipedia library before inserting newspapers into archaeology articles. I think the best thing to do would for all three of these editors to just avoid talking to each other and to certainly avoid seeking new disputes with each other. If they cannot do so we should impose a mutual interaction ban. For anything regarding expanding the scope of JJNito's topic ban I think it's honestly AE or nothing. I personally hope it doesn't come to that because there's been far too many AE threads created of late that look like the exercise of personal grievance and I'd personally prefer to see fewer come up on my watchlist. Simonm223 (talk) 12:35, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi, for my own reference, are you an administrator? IMO, it's not accurate to say you are "slightly invovled" as I've seen you interact quite a bit at Ashkenazi Jews and on my talk page re: Ashkenazi Jews. You say you are
not particularly impressed with anyone's involvement with this dispute
but I don't see any further mention of how you are not impressed by me specifically (and I assume we're talking about my behavior, not my arguments regarding content, which we largely do not agree on). I don't purport to have behaved perfectly, but can you please elaborate on this? Slava570 (talk) 12:55, 5 May 2026 (UTC)- No, I'm not an admin. Non-admins are free to comment here. I have been active in a different discussion at Talk:Ashkenazi Jews which neither Mikewem nor JJNito was a participant in at all. You certainly were. I made a single comment in the RfC that is a subject of this dispute. As far as your comportment - of the three editors involved in this dispute I have the least to say about yours.
I am a bit concerned with your haste in some of these filing matters, missing the direction to post the notification template to JJNito's page and asking about copy-pasting an ANI filing to AE suggest more interest in haste than following proper process but, being honest, I am far less concerned about that than about any of the other stuff I've mentioned. If I'm speaking directly to you alone, Slava570, I would say, slow down, WP:FOC and try to avoid getting into interpersonal disputes in CTOPS and I'd leave it with that little bit of friendly advice and see that as all that needs doing.Simonm223 (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)- I posted the notification template as soon as I possibly could. I started working on it as soon as I was done posting here. This was my first time doing it, and I am not yet technically savvy enough to be able to do it quickly. Haste is one thing, but wanting to do less work to accomplish the same thing is another. This is easy for some, but the technical aspect is more difficult for me, which is why I asked for help. What you perceive as haste, I perceive as patience, as I have been dealing with JJNito over the course of two RFCs now, and it seems like no matter what I or anyone else says, he continuously goes back to the same arguments that he's been using from the beginning, over and over. Slava570 (talk) 13:52, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sometimes in RfCs people dig in their heels. In these cases, when you realize that's happened, it's often best to walk away and trust that the closer will recognize that a person is saying the same thing over and over again. In my experience this is generally better than trying to have them removed. Simonm223 (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
I am a bit concerned with your haste in some of these filing matters, missing the direction to post the notification template to JJNito's page and asking about copy-pasting an ANI filing to AE suggest more interest in haste than following proper process
- This comment seems unfair to me. The time between Slava's notification and your scolding for not notifying was 3 minutes...which is a bit unreasonable in my opinion. And Slava's comment about copying and pasting to AE was a response to users suggesting this be posted there instead. Sure, the required formatting of AE is different but I'd imagine most editors - who never step foot in AE - do not know this. PositivelyUncertain (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I posted the notification template as soon as I possibly could. I started working on it as soon as I was done posting here. This was my first time doing it, and I am not yet technically savvy enough to be able to do it quickly. Haste is one thing, but wanting to do less work to accomplish the same thing is another. This is easy for some, but the technical aspect is more difficult for me, which is why I asked for help. What you perceive as haste, I perceive as patience, as I have been dealing with JJNito over the course of two RFCs now, and it seems like no matter what I or anyone else says, he continuously goes back to the same arguments that he's been using from the beginning, over and over. Slava570 (talk) 13:52, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, I'm not an admin. Non-admins are free to comment here. I have been active in a different discussion at Talk:Ashkenazi Jews which neither Mikewem nor JJNito was a participant in at all. You certainly were. I made a single comment in the RfC that is a subject of this dispute. As far as your comportment - of the three editors involved in this dispute I have the least to say about yours.
- Hi, for my own reference, are you an administrator? IMO, it's not accurate to say you are "slightly invovled" as I've seen you interact quite a bit at Ashkenazi Jews and on my talk page re: Ashkenazi Jews. You say you are
- Speaking as an admin that responded to that case, I regret not calling more forcefully for a ban from Jewish history more broadly. I opted for a standard PIA tban out of a desire for simplicity and agreement. Separately, I'm rather skeptical of statements by other admins and arbs to the effect that the history of Palestine/Judea outside of the strict confines of 20th-century-onward conflict should not be considered part of the conflict. My view is that, regrettably, nearly all history of the region is now part of the conflict due to the nature of the rival claims to the land that do attempt to establish themselves with reference to any prior history of settlement in the area. signed, Rosguill talk 14:14, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with you. I don't think arbs want to include everything to do with the history of Israel/Palestine/Judea, but when I see an editor with a tban on PIA editing in that area, it makes me feel like they are marching right up to the line, sticking an arm out across it, and declaring there are no air rights. Valereee (talk) 14:41, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I have a similar perspective, and the tone of the rhetoric that JJNito appears to bring into these disputes from word go certainly does not improve their case much. However, it is notable that they did not just leap into this area immediately after the TBAN; these were discussions that they were well-engaged with before administrative sanction at AE, and they say they were willing to back away from them once the RfC resolved. In the totality of the circumstances, I think some AGF that they are being sincere about that is probably due. Yes, maybe they should have just washed their hands of the ongoing discussions just to preserve their credibility and not give the impression they were pushing a line adjacent to their new restrictions, but I think if we are honest, probably not one editor in twenty would have done so in these circumstances, and that's at least somewhat understandable. SnowRise let's rap 15:50, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- The RFC was started before any ban was in place. It has nothing to do with my editing in that area. I accepted fault from Golan Heights for a legitimate reason. I do not accept that from being banned from jewish history is valid, considering I was editing that article separately, and being an athiest that notices synth does not constitute a violation and nor is it political. An admin agreed with me that synth was being used in the subheader, and another admin clarified that what I was editing did not fall over to the pia ban. I was right and nobody came with any proposal, and the only proposal that was given was accepted by me. It took about 3 weeks for someone to notice what I was saying had merit, per WP SYNTH.
- I also find it not helpful that when an editor calls out violations in others conduct on this platform, it is not acknowledged by admins. I mentioned multiple times that Wikistalking was taking place with evidence, I was being bullied and ostracised on article talk pages with multiple threads being opened specifically for me, am being mentioned on off-site websites to large audiences targeting me with slander and mobilising against me, disrupted by now-banned socks, was being ignored and baited, am being brought back and back again to ANI discussions due to personal vendettas contrary to rulings by admins, patently gaming the system, and all because of one article which was already analysed in the recent ANI just last week. Of which no violations took place other than me admittedly passionate. Also the RFC is being closed next week and I said I wouldn't contest it. I have received no support with my concerns from anybody other than Valereee, who showed me a place to go and came with much needed suggestions. I am disappointed sincerely. JJNito197 (talk) 15:16, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I had a look and can confirm, with the easiest of google searches, it is evident that JJNito is being subjected to off-wiki mobilization attempts on Reddit, Twitter and elsewhere mostly executed by the redditor WillyNilly1997 and by the Twitter account of WikiBias. I have no information that connects either of these accounts to any specific Wikipedia editor. Simonm223 (talk) 15:29, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
WillyNilly1997
I did not expect to see the guy's name who was fueling the off-wiki debate about people born in the "Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic" vs "Soviet-occupied Estonia" vs just "Estonia". Nakonana (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2026 (UTC)- I googled this and just wanted to add that they posted about this the day after this incident report was opened, and there have been no new people coming here that have made any statements against JJNito, which means that as of now they have had no affect on this case. Whether they've had any effect in the past, I have no idea. Slava570 (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- It appears that this redditor's three main focuses are:
- complaining about editors in the PIA CTOP
- complaining about editors in the Rus/UKR CTOP
- posting on a variety of Trumpist subreddits Simonm223 (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Can i mention that this redditor think that the Cultural Marxism narrative is correct thus is angry that we label it an antisemite conspiracy theory? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 10:29, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It appears that this redditor's three main focuses are:
- I googled this and just wanted to add that they posted about this the day after this incident report was opened, and there have been no new people coming here that have made any statements against JJNito, which means that as of now they have had no affect on this case. Whether they've had any effect in the past, I have no idea. Slava570 (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I had a look and can confirm, with the easiest of google searches, it is evident that JJNito is being subjected to off-wiki mobilization attempts on Reddit, Twitter and elsewhere mostly executed by the redditor WillyNilly1997 and by the Twitter account of WikiBias. I have no information that connects either of these accounts to any specific Wikipedia editor. Simonm223 (talk) 15:29, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Rosguill FWIW while I agree that Jewish and Palestinian)history outside the direct confines of the conflict are broadly construed part of the conflict given claims about whether that history justify territorial claims are an inherent part of the conflict, I can understand why there's a general reluctance to see it that way. So IMO it's fine to try a topic ban from the conflict then relying on the ability to extend it to more clearly cover other stuff if that doesn't work. This clearly follows the path arbitrators have laid out so while it might be seen as wasting more time, it also reduces the risk of disputes about whether you're allowed to do what you're doing. Nil Einne (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with you. I don't think arbs want to include everything to do with the history of Israel/Palestine/Judea, but when I see an editor with a tban on PIA editing in that area, it makes me feel like they are marching right up to the line, sticking an arm out across it, and declaring there are no air rights. Valereee (talk) 14:41, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you Valereee, I stand corrected: apparently the most recent version of the CTOP remedies provide for exactly this sort of expansion of a PIA TBAN via consensus at AE, which changes the complexion of the situation and does indeed make that the most efficacious solution here. SnowRise let's rap 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- While I agree an extended topic ban of JJNito197 is clearly possible, one thing which hasn't been clearly stated and from their comments earlier it's not clear to me JJNito197 understands, I don't see that JJNito197 can ask for sanction for others from the area, including a wider topic ban, on AE even if they wanted. Since they have that topic ban, what happens in the area doesn't concern them any more. The only thing they can do is appeal their own restrictions in some way, and discuss any proposed extension. Alleged wrong doing of others IMO doesn't concern them. They could ask for a community topic ban for stuff which is part of the wider area like Jewish history but IMO that's it. (They could also use AE for discussion about other CTOPs etc.) Nil Einne (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, I can't wait to be free from that article when the RFC ends, I only stumbled upon it and left my thoughts. And thanks for the advice. My IBAN was meant for Mikewem mainly going forward, as the user follows me around unrelated places and does not assume good faith. I have no intention of breaching the PIA injunction me and Mikewem are both under, until next year when I appeal. JJNito197 (talk) 22:31, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- While I agree an extended topic ban of JJNito197 is clearly possible, one thing which hasn't been clearly stated and from their comments earlier it's not clear to me JJNito197 understands, I don't see that JJNito197 can ask for sanction for others from the area, including a wider topic ban, on AE even if they wanted. Since they have that topic ban, what happens in the area doesn't concern them any more. The only thing they can do is appeal their own restrictions in some way, and discuss any proposed extension. Alleged wrong doing of others IMO doesn't concern them. They could ask for a community topic ban for stuff which is part of the wider area like Jewish history but IMO that's it. (They could also use AE for discussion about other CTOPs etc.) Nil Einne (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Just to add onto @Snow Rise I am not particularly impressed with anyone's involvement with this dispute. For the purposes of disclosure I did participate in the RfC at Talk:Ashkenazi Jews and as such may be considered slightly involved. But this is what motivated me, above, to tell the three original involved participants to walk away from this. JJNito197 has not behaved perfectly and I think the TBAN they did get was appropriate. Furthermore appeals to admin authority in the context of a content dispute are not great comportment and may have a chilling effect on content discussions. When it comes to adjudicating a content dispute an admin is just the same as any other editor. But starting threads on article talk and openly collaborating at user talk to frame an AN/I thread to remove a person with whom you have a content dispute is a deeply alarming pattern of behaviour. And, honestly, that edit wasn't a good look between the scolding edit summary, their prior non-involvement in purely archaeological articles and the dependence on a newspaper source for a purely archaeological article, it does kind of look like Mikewem went looking for an opportunity to tweak JJnito197's nose, so to speak, in a topic where they seem unaware of the quality of available sources. They should probably look at Wikipedia library before inserting newspapers into archaeology articles. I think the best thing to do would for all three of these editors to just avoid talking to each other and to certainly avoid seeking new disputes with each other. If they cannot do so we should impose a mutual interaction ban. For anything regarding expanding the scope of JJNito's topic ban I think it's honestly AE or nothing. I personally hope it doesn't come to that because there's been far too many AE threads created of late that look like the exercise of personal grievance and I'd personally prefer to see fewer come up on my watchlist. Simonm223 (talk) 12:35, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- A rough consensus at AE can broaden a tban of PIA, per this. Valereee (talk) 12:11, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- So, I am not happy being in the position of saying it--because it certainly would be the easiest and most efficient thing in terms of community bandwidth to let any further discussion become adjunct to the existing ARBPIA-CTOP determination w/ regard to JJNito--but having reviewed that thread and the disputes at talk:Ashkenazi Jews and talk:Israelites, I'm not really sure that is an option here. While JJNito's behaviour at articles pertaining to historical Jewish culture and ethnography was cited in that discussion, it is presumably the involvement of the Golan Heights article from which the responding admins at WP:AE felt they were deriving cause to apply the discretionary TBAN. Vanamonde93 can correct me if I am wrong about that though. In any event, I think ArbCom has been very careful to try--as best it can, all interrelation of the topics considered--to create a bulwark between the CTOP scheme with regard to modern Israli-Arab conflicts, and all other things Jewish or Arab. In other words, disruptive behaviour in areas pertaining to historical or insular topics about these cultures generally don't trigger sanctions under the CTOP scheme, and admins at AE may be hesitant to extend an existing TBAN to cover such topics under ARBPIA. I don't know, my read there may be inaccurate (I tend to only edit in PIA incidentally through RfC and content fora requests) but that is my concern anyway. If there's going to be a further TBAN regarding these two articles and the general topic of the origins of the Jewish people, it may need to be issued by the community here. For whatever it's worth, having reviewed the article talk page discussions at some length, i have mixed feelings about JJNito's conduct there: on the one hand, some of their editorial positions are not unreasonable and they are hardly the only party driving the battle of wills, but on the other, they are repeatedly deploying rhetoric that is far more bombastic and divisive than is necessary. But I do think it is worth noting that the discussion they are currently involved in is an RfC that was started before their PIA TBAN--at the very least, they didn't choose to jump into the topic immediately after the implementation of the sanction, which I do feel is relevant to the question of whether they are exercising good judgment. SnowRise let's rap 06:52, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
WP:GENSEX Violations by TA
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
~2026-26137-69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has committed WP:GENSEX violations at List of school shootings in Canada. Despite trying to warn them on their talk page User talk:~2026-26137-69, they refuse to follow guidelines, thus, this report. I’ll be leaving the notice on their talk page after posting this, as it takes a bit on mobile. TheClocksAlwaysTurn (The Clockworks) (contribs) 13:06, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- This edit is very clear WP:NOTHERE behaviour. Simonm223 (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Indeffed. I've also semi-protected the article, as this isn't this particular editor's first attack on it. Black Kite (talk) 13:29, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Group of TAs promoting fringe musician
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- ~2026-27219-69 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki · SI)
- ~2026-26270-35 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki · SI)
- ~2026-15898-60 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki · SI)
- ~2026-10710-02 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki · SI)
- ~2026-93664-0 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki · SI)
A group of TAs has been inserting the name of the musician Alexander Slang into various music pages. The musician is not notable in Wikipedia's terms, and the insertions are false. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Likely a sock. Underlying IP address(es) have been blocked. – robertsky (talk) 17:28, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Also applied pending changes for a month for now. – robertsky (talk) 17:31, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
User:Victor Matheus Amaral continuous bludgeoning and POV pushing
Victor Matheus Amaral (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
So I have decided to file a report here, as I am seeing this user is just pushing their POV on the talk page of Linux, and will not back down on their arguments. When someone contests them, and they don't respond to their comments, they say something along the lines of you ran out of counterarguments and are desperately trying to bring down the discussion using fallacies
. Can someone assist with this, as I have ran out of patience with them. Pinging @Guy Macon as the person who initially pointed out Victor's bludgeoning. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 20:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am simply asking them to stop getting off topic and using fallacies and senseless comments. If they had not done this, the discussion would have been shorter. I summarized my arguments, and all their responses were cynical fallacies that did not address the topic. You can make your own judgment by reading the talk page. I ask you, please, not to bring down the discussion. I invited additional people whom I believe can add value. — Victor Matheus Amaral 20:43, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- The above comment is typical behavior. See Talk:Linux#Bludgeoning for a lot more. Victor Matheus Amaral is being extremely disruptive, even after the ANI case opened. . Pretty much everyone else on both sides of the "Linux or GNU/Linux" content dispute has been civil, posted reasonable arguments. and posted them a reasonable number of times. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Very civil "I am annoyed and I will report you" — Victor Matheus Amaral 21:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I did not say that though. That is you implying I said that. I said
I'm to the point we should move to AN/I. @Guy Macon should I go in and file a report on this, since I am just going to get more annoyed the further this chat goes on. They are pushing their POV constantly. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 20:21, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- This comment was due to me seeing the whole talk page, and how they were reacting, especially the reactions to when I made a comment on there. It annoys me when someone thinks that their opinion overrules all, and all objections are invalid to them. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 21:38, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Even if he had said it, "I am annoyed and I will report you" is not uncivil. It may not be couched in feelgood flowery euphemisms, but it's not insulting. Ravenswing 22:55, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Very civil "I am annoyed and I will report you" — Victor Matheus Amaral 21:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- The above comment is typical behavior. See Talk:Linux#Bludgeoning for a lot more. Victor Matheus Amaral is being extremely disruptive, even after the ANI case opened. . Pretty much everyone else on both sides of the "Linux or GNU/Linux" content dispute has been civil, posted reasonable arguments. and posted them a reasonable number of times. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I will not push any more arguments favorable to my "point of view". I also started an RfC to address the discussion in an appropriate way. — Victor Matheus Amaral 23:17, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Do you promise to stop pushing towards your POV? I'll be satisfied with the results if this is the case then. Just be cautious of doing more of that again, since you already have some people watching that behavior.
- Just so you know, renaming the article from Linux to GNU/Linux would be a violation of WP:COMMONNAME, which is why it is Linux in the first place, since GNU/Linux isn't the common name, we use to talk about Linux. The RfC was SNOW-closed as everyone was just pointing out the mistakes in the argument (so it was basically getting nowhere) SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 01:52, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I too would be completely satisfied with a promise to stop POV pushing and bludgeoning, and I consider the above "I will not push any more arguments favorable to my 'point of view'." to be such a promise. I move that we pause this report until either [A] there is further disruption dated 6 May or later. or [B] it times out and gets autoarchived. I always like to see a face-saving way out; if the behavior stops that's all we should care about.
- I see that they are now in the middle of another contentious topic -- whether a drawing of Muhammad should be removed from an article. I see no obvious disruption so far, so this will be a good test of Victor Matheus Amaral's ability and willingness to play nicely. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:09, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I will not do that anymore. I respect editors' consensus — Victor Matheus Amaral 16:27, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
As an uninvolved editor who just read the whole thread(s) when I saw the RFC on Linux, I wholeheartedly agree that we are seeing an egregious case of WP:BLUDGEON (something I admit I had been guilty myself here when I was much younger). Victor, I understand you feel frustrated and I understand you feel there is nothing wrong in arguing one's own point -I know, I've been there. But other editors are right, such a behaviour is just disruptive. It adds nothing and wastes everyone's time. You've made your point abundantly clear, now there's a RfC, back off. --cyclopiaspeak! 09:43, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, I am not frustrated, but I appreciate your comment. I just pushed the discussion beyond reasonable limits because it was a recurrent topic in the Linux article and I wanted an "everything or nothing" discussion to end it all — Victor Matheus Amaral 16:06, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Skeptic2
It is with great reluctance that I am reporting Skeptic2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). They are a valuable contributor and I request that if at all possible this be handled without a block. I am hoping that an administrator can convince him where I have failed to do so.
The main issue is that
- At Skeptic2 confirms that he is Ian Ridpath.
- As discussed at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#If you go down to the woods tonight ..., much of Skeptic2's activity on Wikipedia consists of citing or writing about Ian Ridpath.
- At User talk:Skeptic2#COI Skeptic2 has been very reluctant to agree to follow WP:COIEDIT and WP:DISCLOSE.
Again, it is my hope that this can be resolved without any sanctions. I cannot emphasize enough how much I value this user's contributions. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:29, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
| ANI is for discussing user behavior, not source reliability. Take it to WP:RSN. |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
- What is more problematic is that this was noticed because Skeptic2 made some reverts trying to keep content cited to his website in an article and that made it to a noticeboard. I am also a little concerned about edits to the biography at Ian Ridpath (both from the named account and a number of signed edits from IPs) and other places where there is editing about their views as a named person (Rendlesham Forest incident, The Sirius Mystery maybe others, I haven't combed through their contribution list).
- I share Guy Macon's hope that Skeptic2 can learn about and accept the community's expectations for COI editors, now that he is aware of them. MrOllie (talk) 20:16, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
This is very disappointing. The COI issue was brought up improperly back in 2018 . Skeptic2 was only recently notified about WP:COI in an appropriate matter. Maybe this can be addressed with a clear warning that he should be following COI very carefully from now on, discussing possible changes on article talk pages rather then editing those articles directly whenever the coi warrants it? If he agrees, then I'd hope it could be settled there. --Hipal (talk) 20:51, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I have advised them about the existence of
- and encouraged them to join us here and discuss this. Let's wait and see what they do. User:Skeptic2, I cannot emphasize enough that we are all pulling for you to accept the community's expectations for COI editors and to continue being a productive editor. You really have done some fine work in the area of astronomy, and we all appreciate that. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:26, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Dear Guy, Thank you for your kind words regarding my contributions to Wikipedia, some of which I understand can be interpreted as COI. Our discussion on my Talk page covered three possibilities:
- 1. Use of the COI tag. This seems to me to be subjective and we may not agree.
- 2. Changing username to my own name. This seems to be simple and transparent.
- 3. Block and/or cessation of editing. I do not see how this would benefit Wikipedia.
- Since Hipal thinks it unnecessary to change username, I would like to invite you to add the COI tag where you think necessary. This would solve any differences of interpretation. As I have said before, I have no reason to conceal my real name and have no concerns about being identified. Will this resolve the matter to your satisfaction? Thanks, Ian. Skeptic2 (talk) 16:12, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hipal also suggested that you could add {{UserboxCOI}} to your user page. For example, you could add
{{UserboxCOI|Ian Ridpath}}. I would highly recommend that. - Although changing your username isn't necessary or sufficient for WP:DISCLOSURE, I suspect you're right that it would go a long way in practice towards making it clear to folks that you're trying your best to be transparent. If you want to do that, you don't need to re-register (and you probably shouldn't). As described at WP:UCREQUEST, you could just make a request at Wikipedia:Changing username/Simple or Special:GlobalRenameRequest. Again, you definitely don't need to do this unless you want to!
- Just so you know, I already added COI tags in some places for you a couple days ago. After noticing your initial disclosure at WP:FTN, I added the {{connected contributor}} tag to the talk pages for Ian Ridpath, The Sirius Mystery, Rendlesham Forest incident, Astronomy Now, Norton's Star Atlas, and Universe: The Definitive Visual Guide. Cadddr (talk) 16:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hipal also suggested that you could add {{UserboxCOI}} to your user page. For example, you could add
Self Declared Sock Camsalt03
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Camsalt03 declared in this edit that they have previously been blocked and needed to create a new account. I am guessing they are a sock of Cam salty03. Thank you --VVikingTalkEdits 14:38, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Relevant ANI filing, long story short they got permablocked for calling another editor a 'defender of paedophiles' and doubling down on other personal attacks. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:53, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Wait that's why they got banned? No wonder they got blocked. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 15:01, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, was admittedly amusing to see them claim they're "dropping the matter" because this is the place for "thoughtful interaction". Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:12, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Wait that's why they got banned? No wonder they got blocked. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 15:01, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Disregarding WP:GSAA through at least three temporary accounts
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
~2026-13836-49 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
At least on three different temporary accounts this person has received a notification about WP:GSAA, yet they keep disregarding it. Not only are they continuously disregarding WP:GSAA, most of their edits are also WP:TENDENTIOUS (eg ). --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:38, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- They’ve hoped on to another TA and continued ECR violations Special:Contributions/~2026-27363-80. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I would just say delete the edits they made if they violated the ECR, but I don't know what is the ECR territory, as I try to stay away from those topics. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 15:31, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've imposed an IP rangeblock for several months that should cover most of the identified activity. signed, Rosguill talk 15:33, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've also blocked the actual TAs, having confirmed technical overlap. signed, Rosguill talk 15:37, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you Rosguill! HistoryofIran (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've also blocked the actual TAs, having confirmed technical overlap. signed, Rosguill talk 15:37, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
User:Iseekarim112/sandbox
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Iseekarim112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- User:Iseekarim112/sandbox (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This sandbox needs to be nuked. WP:BLPCRIME, WP:BLPMINOR and a whole section of unreffed "legal issues". Not sure what to do about the author. I'm usually at WP:BLPN but this isn't quite fit for that mostly non-admin volunteer forum. JFHJr (㊟) 04:00, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Found a duplicate here: User:Iseekarim112/Sample page. Lovely. JFHJr (㊟) 04:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It also appears Iseekarim112 has lied and uploaded images of the subject (and some other people) as "own work" to Commons, despite them apparently in my search coming from the internet. I'm not too sure about how Commons policy works or how to fix this, but hopefully someone who sees this is and might be able to help. MolecularPilot Talk 05:23, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Most of Iseekarim112's edits are to those reprehensible sandboxes. They definitely should be nuked (it's a pity that there's no speedy criterion that quite touches them), and Iseekarim112 promptly indeffed as NOTHERE. Ravenswing 07:25, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Wouldn't these qualify for WP:G10? ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · email · global) 07:30, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- The BLPs aren't wholly negative though, as they contain neutral info on music career and songs etc. so I don't think they qualify, sadly. MolecularPilot Talk 07:45, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- No.
G10: Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose
(emphasis mine) Ravenswing 09:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- They have made edits to the main WP:SANDBOX with the same reprehensible content, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=1346628739 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=1348453162. If the page is deleted, I think these need to be revdel'ed, too. MolecularPilot Talk 07:49, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Wouldn't these qualify for WP:G10? ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · email · global) 07:30, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- In my opinon, even if it doesn't meet the letter of G10 due to having some non-negative content, an admin should WP:IAR delete the pages. It's WP:BLPMINOR and WP:BLPCRIME violating content making horrendous accusations against a child without evidence, and contains their medical history (re suicide attempts and hospitalisation etc.) and their personal information including which school they attend and specific details around which schools they've been to etc. which is so clearly over the line. I think due to the nature of this content, a block for Iseekarim112 ought to be considered, too. MolecularPilot Talk 07:53, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, it seems like WP:BLPDEL would cover this deletion, so it's not a WP:IAR case, just sadly doesn't meet the letter (but surely the intent) of WP:G10.
If the entire page is substantially of poor quality, primarily containing contentious material that is unsourced or poorly sourced, then it may be necessary to delete the entire page as an initial step, followed by discussion if requested [...] Summary deletion is appropriate when the page contains unsourced negative material or is written non-neutrally, and when this cannot readily be rewritten or restored to an earlier version of an acceptable standard
I will use {{db}} with a custom reason to tag both pages for speedy deletion, now. MolecularPilot Talk 08:02, 6 May 2026 (UTC)- Tagged now per WP:BLPDEL with a detailed justification. MolecularPilot Talk 08:19, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, it seems like WP:BLPDEL would cover this deletion, so it's not a WP:IAR case, just sadly doesn't meet the letter (but surely the intent) of WP:G10.
- Iseekarim112 blocked indefinitely as WP:NOTHERE. This is a regular admin action rather than consensus-of-the-community. --Yamla (talk) 09:20, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
User Parminder Sarwara
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Continued disruptive behavior after many discussions and warnings, mostly edit-warring and personal attacks, often after using poor or unreliable sources:
- May 2026
- Recent edit-warring: --Hipal (talk) 17:33, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I addressed the user by their literal username, Hipal. If using a username is now a personal attack, the policy has lost all meaning. And Edit Warring is not a one-sided activity. Parminder Sarwara (talk) 19:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's pretty confusing since half of those aren't diffs, but User talk:Parminder Sarwara#December 2025 wasn't a civil exchange on your part.
- "Yeah, I know what that is. You started it. Fuck you" definitely wasn't. Blue-Sonnet 19:29, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've blocked Parminder Sarwara for a month for persistent personal attacks, poor sourcing, and edit warring. Bishonen | tålk 20:03, 6 May 2026 (UTC).
Conduct of A455bcd9
Hello,
I am concerned about the conduct User:A455bcd9 has displayed to me and other editors regarding a content dispute at Talk:List of cities with the most skyscrapers. Namely:
WP:BLUDGEONING discussion sections
- A - See the entire linked section
- B - See the entire linked section
- C - See the entire linked section
(Denial of) WP:PERSONALATTACKS on editors and/or WP:INTIMIDATION to start WP:RFCs
- D:
You don't understand anything. Why don't you start an WP:RFC if you're so sure of yourself?
- E:
...you're already been banned once for edit warring. Stop it. Join the discussion or start an WP:RFC.
- F: A user noted on A455bcd9's talk page:
Perhaps you are correct, but you just made an offensive personal attack...
. A455bcd9 proceeded to deny this:I did not make "an offensive personal attack". Stop your disruption and ask your mentor how to behave.
- Edit summary from Post I reversion below
WP:EDITWARRING with multiple users
- G was reverted by A455bcd9 with the WP:EDITSUMMARY
Stop your stealth reverts
- H was reverted by A455bcd9
- I was reverted by A455bcd9 with the edit summary
Wikipedia isn't a democracy. It's not about counting votes. Go to Talk:List_of_cities_with_the_most_skyscrapers#Sources and engage in discussion or start an RfC if you disagree.
My starting a WP:RFC did not stop A455bcd9's conduct
- J: As I was drafting my RFC at 15:57 UTC April 24, I reverted all of A455bcd9's edits made after 21:34 UTC April 16, as they were part of the scope of that discussion.
- K: At 16:14 UTC April 24, I posted the RFC I was drafting. In addition, I pinged A455bcd9 to give them permission to modify my RFC statement.
- L: At 17:32 UTC April 24, over an hour after I had published the RFC, A455bcd9 reverted me with this WP:EDITSUMMARY:
Start an RFC first and don't republish unsourced + OR data
.- I do not wish to speculate on the intended semantics of that edit summary. However, I interpreted it as an WP:ASPERSION, WP:INTIMIDATION, and WP:POVPUSHING, especially given that it took place during the RFC.
- M: An RFC participant called out A455bcd9 for WP:MISREPRESENTATION of their statements.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 02:26, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
Addition to original post - I appreciate the comments that have been made so far. I would like to remind editors that the focus of this section is to determine whether there is a user conduct issue. Please feel free to discuss the merits of content at Talk:List of cities with the most skyscrapers. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 17:34, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
Side discussion about whether or not the above post was LLM-generated, and a conclusion that it probably was not. Epicgenius (talk) 03:51, 7 May 2026 (UTC) |
|---|
|
- List of cities with the most skyscrapers is a prime example of the stupidity of so many list pages, containing as it does meaningless trivia such as
Malaysia is the least populous country to have three cities with at least 30 skyscrapers
. WTF?- Bob: "Hey Marge! Listen to this! Did you know that Malaysia is the least populous country to have three cities with at least 30 skyscrapers? Isn't that fascinating?"
- Marge: "Why yes, Bob, that is fascinating! Feed me more empty trivia based on randomly generated criteria about clusters of skyscrapers! I find I'm strangely aroused by it!"
- Lists are often crapmagnets, and require a far disproportionate amount of administrative intervention. We should have been rid of them long ago. EEng 04:30, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- This is essentially the problem and why I intervened to focus on a simple listing with one RS (see diff). AndrewPeterT did not contribute to the article in the past weeks, nor did he join the discussions. But he suddenly started an RFC that is not well formulated. He acknowledged it as he said
you are welcome to rewrite my WP:RFCBRIEF question in a way that you believe better represents the situation.
: is that a way to do an RFC?! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 04:38, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- This is essentially the problem and why I intervened to focus on a simple listing with one RS (see diff). AndrewPeterT did not contribute to the article in the past weeks, nor did he join the discussions. But he suddenly started an RFC that is not well formulated. He acknowledged it as he said
- The optics of this report do not provide a positive image of the filer, User:AndrewPeterT. There had been extended discussion on the article talk page that was inconclusive. User: Sawarijoshi then requested moderated discussion at DRN. Sawarijoshi and User: a455bcd9 replied, and I asked them what changes each of them wanted to make to the article, since the purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. Then a455bcd9 said that they thought that there had not been enough discussion on the article talk page, and that further discussion followed by an RFC was in order. I closed the DRN, but said that I was available to assist in formulating an RFC. At this point AndrewPeterT jumped in, having not been previously involved. AndrewPeterT first made a large edit to the article, and then launched an RFC. The RFC contained the provision that either Sawarijoshi or a455bcd9 could change the wording of the RFC. In my opinion, that was a strange provision, because changing the wording of an RFC after editors have responded makes it very difficult to close. AndrewPeterT had not taken part in the previous discussion, and jumped in with an edit and an RFC, and then made this report to WP:ANI. Sometimes an outsider can help to resolve a complex dispute. This does not appear to be such a situation, but maybe they are trying too hard, and are entering the dispute with more courage than caution.
- I suggest, first, that the article be fully protected for a few days to stop the edit-warring that seems to be starting. Second, either the editors including AndrewPeterT can resume content discussion on the article talk page, or I am willing to begin moderated discussion again, or an editor can submit a nomination for deletion , using a deletion reason that may or may not include crapmagnet. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:01, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I do not believe deletion is the right path here. If we keep deleting pages every time there is one user who unyieldingly disagrees with everyone else, we won’t have much of Wikipedia left. Sawarijoshi (talk) 08:10, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- If the pages deleted are all absurd list articles like this one, that would be a great result. EEng 02:25, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- The skyscraper article doesn't seem to have any reliable sources talking about cities in the context of how many skyscrapers they have, so I wouldn't have expected us to have an article about it - if we don't have specific criteria for what can become a list, where does it stop?
- Cities with the the most roads/bungalows/traffic lights? Do we even have a guideline for lists & if we don't, should we have one?
- I don't want to derail but I've seen this brought up a few times.
- Since this is the sort of thing that AI can easily dump out, we might need a pre-emptive strike (presuming we don't have a guideline, of course, but I haven't been able to find one). Blue Sonnet (talk) 05:03, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue Sonnet, in my opinion, that's a slippery slope fallacy. Skyscrapers are notable. Traffic lights are not. A skyscraper is well-defined, i.e., a habitable building taller than 150m. Moreover, the List of cities with the most skycrapers also has a well-defined criteria for inclusion, i.e., cities with 30 or more completed skyscrapers. These align with the requirements given at Wikipedia:Lists in Wikipedia#List membership criteria.
- Nevertheless, we now digress from the scope of this discussion (conduct of a455bcd9). If you would like to discuss this with me further, please start a topic either on my Talk page or on the WP:SKY talk page. Sawarijoshi (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
a well-defined criteria for inclusion, i.e., cities with 30 or more completed skyscrapers. These align with the requirements given at Wikipedia:Lists in Wikipedia#List membership criteria
– No, it does not so align, because the guideline requires thatLists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources
. So tell me: what reliable source came up with ...- "country with the most cities that have at least 30 skyscrapers"
- "most skyscrapers in East Asia outside of China and Hong Kong"
- "most skyscrapers of any city without a supertall skyscraper"
- "the southernmost city with over 30 skyscrapers"
- "only city to have skyscrapers on two continents, Asia and Europe"
- "Makati, with 55 skyscrapers, makes up less than half of the total number of skyscrapers in Metro Manila"
- "least populous country to have three cities with at least 30 skyscrapers"
- "only city in South America with at least 30 skyscrapers"
- What reliable source set 30 as some touchstone? And why does the page switch to 50 in "Hefei is one of 16 cities in China with at least 50 skyscrapers"? And that's before we get to "the city with the most skyscrapers changes if alternative definitions for skyscraper are used". Oh, do tell.
- It's all arbitrary made-up WP:OR junk, with no meaning and to no purpose. The page should be deleted. EEng 04:40, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Lists in Wikipedia is not a guideline, but an essay. The actual guideline is WP:LISTCRIT and there has been substantial debate in recent months over the guideline (see the talk page). Katzrockso (talk) 18:01, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- If the pages deleted are all absurd list articles like this one, that would be a great result. EEng 02:25, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- My rationale for filing this ANI was not to resolve content disputes, but note conduct from A455bcd9 that I believed was problematic, irregardless of the merits of their arguments. Indeed, multiple of my diffs address comments that were made at venues other than DRN. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 00:08, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- I do not believe deletion is the right path here. If we keep deleting pages every time there is one user who unyieldingly disagrees with everyone else, we won’t have much of Wikipedia left. Sawarijoshi (talk) 08:10, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Have no comment on the conduct in the OP, but just wanted to raise the issue that after six editors had already !voted in the original RFC, @A455bcd9 has since changed the wording with entirely new questions. nil nz 05:39, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Per Robert McClenon above:
The RFC contained the provision that either Sawarijoshi or a455bcd9 could change the wording of the RFC. In my opinion, that was a strange provision, because changing the wording of an RFC after editors have responded makes it very difficult to close.
I reluctantly did so given how poorly the RFC was drafted: it was irrelevant to the ongoing discussion. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 05:44, 25 April 2026 (UTC)- Agree that it's messy – me raising it here was in the hopes that someone with a lot more experience than I have at running RFCs might know the best way to proceed. nil nz 05:55, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- So a455bcd9, while agreeing that the RFC was poorly drafted, has made it worse by changing it after editors had already replied. Can an uninvolved admin come in and cancel the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:00, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have submitted a request at Requests for Page Protection for temporary full protection. It may be a useless request if the editors just go to the article talk page and continue to post past each other. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:00, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have experience in setting up and launching RFCs, but my opinion is that changing them on the fly is never a solution. I had offered to prepare an RFC, but I would have discussed first, rather than writing it first and changing it in midstream. At this point, I think that the RFC has become a wounded animal. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:00, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I struckthrough my "reformulation", sorry. Still, the RFC should be closed as it is irrelevant to the article. My "reformulation" would be the basis for a new RFC. We should discuss it first, your help is welcome. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:07, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I’m sorry, I don’t see how this RFC is irrelevant to the article. There have been multiple topics of dispute on this page, and this topic (whether counting is OR) is certainly one of them. More importantly, since A455bcd9 has consistently kept directing other contributors to start an RFC for nearly every disagreement ("my way or the highway"), it is contradictory for him to now define the scope of the RFC. The responsibility for framing the RFC should rest with the contributors who were repeatedly told to initiate the process in the first place. Sawarijoshi (talk) 07:55, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- AndrewPeterT is not such a contributor. And yes it is irrelevant: counting what? The RFC must give the context. Anyway, I agree with Robert McClenon. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:07, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- The issue with this RFC was AndrewPeterT’s statement that the scope of the RFC can be updated. There was no issue of lacking context. In the RFC, AndrewPeterT provided links to two Talk page discussions where this topic had been discussed in the past. @A455bcd9, you may feign ignorance of these discussions – just like you did on the DRN – but the fact remains that this topic was discussed and you were very integrally involved in that discussion. If you still disagree, I am happy to provide links to specific snippets just like I did on the DRN (before you decided to withdraw from the DRN). Sawarijoshi (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- This is not how an RFC is done. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:58, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have explained to you elsewhere why I started that RFC the way I did. As I have implied elsewhere in this discussion, this was not a place I should have been in at all.
- Also, since we are discussing "proper" RFC procedure, I cannot recall the last time an editor repeatedly requested to multiple users that they disagreed with, even through edit summaries, that said multiple users start an RFC as a means to resolve disagreement, as the diffs in my original post show you have done.
- Finally, I must be honest. It is concerning to me that you have not acknowledged the impact of your words and conduct on me, as I explicitly note in Diff L of my original post. Regardless of the merits of your content arguments, I deserve to edit in an online environment where I do not feel intimidated. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 17:52, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- This is not how an RFC is done. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:58, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- The issue with this RFC was AndrewPeterT’s statement that the scope of the RFC can be updated. There was no issue of lacking context. In the RFC, AndrewPeterT provided links to two Talk page discussions where this topic had been discussed in the past. @A455bcd9, you may feign ignorance of these discussions – just like you did on the DRN – but the fact remains that this topic was discussed and you were very integrally involved in that discussion. If you still disagree, I am happy to provide links to specific snippets just like I did on the DRN (before you decided to withdraw from the DRN). Sawarijoshi (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree with this sentiment. In all honesty, I believe that it was completely reasonable to expect that someone start some RFC on this matter, no matter how poorly done, especially after having told multiple editors to do so. Moreover, it is especially frustrating to be told that an RFC is irrelevant or should be "reformulated" when A.) said user did not have the initial responsibility to do so, B.) still went above and beyond to bring about what another user requested, C.) faced WP:TLDR when trying to understand the context, and D.) posed a question that others acknowledge is relevant. See also these comments. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 00:23, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- AndrewPeterT is not such a contributor. And yes it is irrelevant: counting what? The RFC must give the context. Anyway, I agree with Robert McClenon. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:07, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I’m sorry, I don’t see how this RFC is irrelevant to the article. There have been multiple topics of dispute on this page, and this topic (whether counting is OR) is certainly one of them. More importantly, since A455bcd9 has consistently kept directing other contributors to start an RFC for nearly every disagreement ("my way or the highway"), it is contradictory for him to now define the scope of the RFC. The responsibility for framing the RFC should rest with the contributors who were repeatedly told to initiate the process in the first place. Sawarijoshi (talk) 07:55, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I struckthrough my "reformulation", sorry. Still, the RFC should be closed as it is irrelevant to the article. My "reformulation" would be the basis for a new RFC. We should discuss it first, your help is welcome. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:07, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Agree that it's messy – me raising it here was in the hopes that someone with a lot more experience than I have at running RFCs might know the best way to proceed. nil nz 05:55, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Per Robert McClenon above:
- Question 1 - Does either Sawarijoshi or a455bcd9, or anyone else, want assistance in formulating an RFC? If so, my user page is available for preliminary discussion so as not to interfere with an existing RFC, unless and until a real RFC is launched.
- Question 2 - Is a trout in order for composing an RFC that says that other editors are invited to change what the RFC asks?
- Question 3 - Is there a user conduct issue here? If not, should this thread be closed before anyone either becomes uncivil or starts throwing boomerangs? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:34, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hey @Robert McClenon.
- Answer 1 – Yes, I intend to start another RFC which covers a slightly different issue (closer to the topic I started on DRN). I am currently occupied with personal work and will need a couple of days. Thank you for offering your assistance once again. I will start a topic on your user talk page soon.
- Answer 2 – I don’t have a strong viewpoint on this – neither for nor against.
- Answer 3 – After extensive discussions with A455bcd9 across multiple topics and multiple Talk pages, it is my view that his edits and Talk page discussions are no longer in good faith and are against WP:NPOV. Despite a dozen attempts to discuss a specific precise topic (exhaustive coverage of CVU), he has repeatedly avoided this discussion and always jumps onto other issues to change the topic. I have given 11 such examples here. Moreover, there have been multiple instances of inappropriate conduct. Examples listed here. I probably wouldn’t have started this ANI myself. However, given that someone already has, I feel compelled to share my views about A455bcd9’s inappropriate conduct. Sawarijoshi (talk) 06:47, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Just a question. What would be done about this if decided? Skyeteam (talk) 13:26, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- User:Skyeteam - What will be done about this is what is decided? If an editor requests that I assist them with an RFC, we will work on and possibly launch an RFC. After the RFC is closed, it will decide the content of a portion of the article. If it is decided that there isn't a conduct issue, this thread will be closed. If an editor says that there is a conduct issue, we (the community) will decide whether there is a conduct issue, and what to do about it. Is there another question? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and made an AFD nomination, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cities with the most skyscrapers.Blue-Sonnet 18:06, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- Question 3a - Is there a user conduct issue here? If so, does someone want to propose sanctions against a user? If there isn't a conduct issue, or if no one wants to propose sanctions, should this thread be closed because the content issue is being considered by the AFD? (Yes, whether an article should exist is a content issue.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:32, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I should say there is a user conduct issue. @A455bcd9 has consistently made replies and comments not in good faith. I would support sanctions. I'm not gonna propose what, because I wouldn't know what to propose. However, I will support any sanctions against @A455bcd9. ----Skyeteam (talk) 11:54, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree with this comment. Yes, there is a user conduct issue here with A455bcd9. All of my evidence can be found in my initial post. In addition to that, A455bcd9 has not acknowledged the impact of their words on me at all in this section, instead choosing to focus on my supposed misconduct with respect to starting a WP:RFC. I have repeatedly explained that my choices on that matter were made because I was put into a position I should not have been in whatsoever.
- Since we are discussing sanctions, let me propose two firmly:
- First, A455bcd9 will apologize to me publicly in this section for making me feel subject to WP:INTIMIDATION and WP:ASPERSIONS.
- Second, A455bcd9 will acknowledge that content disputes are not an excuse to engage in WP:POVPUSHING, WP:EDITWARRING, and all of the other offensives I have noted in my original post.
- Failure to do so, including in other content disputes, will result in additional WP:ANIs being filed against A455bcd9. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 13:28, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Reading through this thread, A455bcd9's responses have addressed numerous tangential issues and their behaviour in those regards. However, it does seem like they are avoiding addressing the central issue at hand, which are the actions which this ANI calls attention to. Their refusal to engage with the substance of users' critical remarks, or even specific questions that are posed to them, is quite obvious from the linked discussions. It is hard to see how their behavior on the given talk pages could lead to a productive outcome due to their deflection, complete lack of engagement with reasonable and specific questions, and reflexive invocation of WP: shortcuts in place of constructive responses. Transgenderoriole (talk) 14:00, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Adding to @AndrewPeterT, I think they should apologize to all users involved for the same reasons. ----Skyeteam (talk) 14:13, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree completely with Transgenderoriole and Skyeteam, and I support broadening my first proposed sanction to request apologies to all involved users. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 15:18, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Adding to @AndrewPeterT, I think they should apologize to all users involved for the same reasons. ----Skyeteam (talk) 14:13, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Reading through this thread, A455bcd9's responses have addressed numerous tangential issues and their behaviour in those regards. However, it does seem like they are avoiding addressing the central issue at hand, which are the actions which this ANI calls attention to. Their refusal to engage with the substance of users' critical remarks, or even specific questions that are posed to them, is quite obvious from the linked discussions. It is hard to see how their behavior on the given talk pages could lead to a productive outcome due to their deflection, complete lack of engagement with reasonable and specific questions, and reflexive invocation of WP: shortcuts in place of constructive responses. Transgenderoriole (talk) 14:00, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I should say there is a user conduct issue. @A455bcd9 has consistently made replies and comments not in good faith. I would support sanctions. I'm not gonna propose what, because I wouldn't know what to propose. However, I will support any sanctions against @A455bcd9. ----Skyeteam (talk) 11:54, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
Proposed sanctions against A455bcd9
Given that A455bcd9 has commented on the WP:AFD Blue-Sonnet started but not this discussion despite a ping here, I completely agree with Skyeteam's suggestion from 16:02, 30 April 2026 (UTC). Taking into the feedback I have received, here are my revised sanctions proposals:
First, A455bcd9 will apologize to me (AndrewPeterT) and all other users who have been involved in the content dispute at Talk:List of cities with the most skyscrapers publicly in this section for making us feel subject to WP:INTIMIDATION and WP:ASPERSIONS.Second, A455bcd9 will acknowledge that content disputes are not an excuse to engage in WP:POVPUSHING, WP:EDITWARRING, and all of the other offensives I have noted in my original post.Failure to abide by either sanction may result in one or more the following for A455bcd9:A WP:TBAN from List of cities with the most skyscrapersAn WP:IBAN with me (AndrewPeterT)Additional WP:ANI conduct reports
All further feedback is welcome.
AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 16:34, 30 April 2026 (UTC), edited 22:16, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- @AndrewPeterT, is your suggestion for a general apology, or for individual apologies to the users? Additionally, if it is the second one, we should probably have a list of users to apologize to. Skyeteam (talk) 17:35, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- The list so far would be (I think):
- @AndrewPeterT
- @Sawarijoshi
- @Skyeteam
- ***Please comment additions***
- ----Skyeteam (talk) 17:38, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- If the community decides that A455bcd9 needs to write specific apologies, please add the following users: User:LivinAWestLife and User:Ahahahaa. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 17:48, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- My suggestion is a general apology. That would be easier than individual apologies, as the reasoning would basically be the same for each one. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 17:43, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- What is the point in forcing an apology? I don't really see how that solves anything. 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 18:32, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- I need some confirmation from A455bcd9 that they have recognized the impact of their conduct on me, and ideally, other users as well. If not an apology, I am open to other ideas to ensure that this commitment will be upheld. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 18:49, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose as written. An apology, to be meaningful, must be voluntary. I will review the interactions in more detail within 12 hours, but this quasi-sanction, which is a demand for an apology, is a call for play-acting. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:35, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon and @45dogs,
- My previous comment was actually more of a badly worded question (my fault), but it was more in case @A455bcd9 was uncooperative, as they have been in the past. Or is your opposition more against the general idea of an apology?
- Skyeteam (talk) 12:19, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- My opposition was against a forced apology. I agree with Robert McClenon below in that they should apologize on their own after realizing they have been uncivil (assuming they have, I have not looked into it at this time). 45dogs (they/them) (talk page) (contributions) 23:03, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- I will try to respond to the question by User:Skyeteam. I said, about 24 hours ago, that I opposed the demand for an apology, and would review the record of interactions in more detail within 12 hours, which I did, and I then reviewed it again. I was at the time opposing the general idea of telling an editor to apologize. An apology that is offered in response to a demand is not a real apology. That was in opposition to any such demand. If an editor realizes that they were uncivil or that their edits were inappropriate, they should apologize, on being criticized for their conduct, but a demand that they apologize removes the possibility of a real apology. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:01, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- After reviewing the edits that User:AndrewPeterT has provided, I see that User: A455bcd9 has been uncivil, and that they should be warned. I do not see evidence that they should be topic-banned from any subject, because their incivility appears to be a general pattern not related to any particular topic, but only sufficiently severe to call for a warning. I do not see any reason for a one-way interaction ban, because AndrewPeterT started it by jumping into the middle of a content dispute that they had not been involved in and opening a strange RFC. I also don't see any reason for a two-way interaction ban. My first preference is that this thread be closed as having been a mistake by AndrewPeterT. I am willing to consider other ways to close this dispute, but not by a demand for an apology. I am willing to consider more evidence that some editor needs to be sanctioned, but at this point I only see evidence for A455bcd9 and AndrewPeterT to be warned. Maybe that answers Skyeteam's questions, and maybe I have given more answers than some of you wanted. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:01, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you for your assessment of the situation. I hereby retract my demand for an apology and change my proposed resolutions to the following:
- First, A455bcd9 will receive a formal warning for being WP:UNCIVIL at Talk:List of cities with the most skyscrapers.
- Second, this WP:ANI thread will be closed as an error on my part.
- Finally, I would like to unequivocally apologize to the community for any misconduct on my end. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:20, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you for your assessment of the situation. I hereby retract my demand for an apology and change my proposed resolutions to the following:
Sakura Mokomoto's refusal to heed editors' comments
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On the recent thread in the Anime and manga WikiProject and the talk page of the film Cosmic Princess Kaguya!, the user @Sakura Mokomoto has repeatedly refused to hear out several editors who have pointed out flaws in their arguments and maintains their own claims that argue that the aforementioned film does not contain LGBTQ+/yuri themes. It's been numerous days that this debate has been going and the user has shown signs of disruptive editing, and all attempts to try and reason with them cordially have failed. JT0219 (talk) 10:00, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I have made two comments in the thread, so I am involved. That being said, I do share concerns about their behavior. The user has repeatedly exhibited WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior with their edits to the discussion by ignoring reliable sources provided by other editors for calling the film a yuri (, , among others at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#On the user Sakura Mokomoto). One of their explanations for why we should go against reliable sources to remove the yuri label was simply I know what is yuri content is but this movie is simply not that (). Not to mention that a TA who is probably them said that Any reasoning of this movie is a yuri is a form of immature form of leftists in Americans (), which is some pretty strong WP:ASPERSIONS. Link20XX (talk) 14:15, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- In addition to that, they said to Cdjp1 Perhaps you have zero idea for the topic and useless about it (), which is a clear personal attack, and twice suggested that the label is being added by "leftists" (, ). They also justified ignoring reliable sources by saying that You can't state news sites as sources too because they are fan dominated and I think you mistaken sources, since we live in a weird internet world where same reliable sources call Mario Galaxy movie yaoi too. (, ). Link20XX (talk) 14:34, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Me having no idea and being useless is whatever, but to claim once again that
Literally asking me where is the tweet, when I repeatedly say its in the bio
, when it was previously pointed out (multiple times) that it was a tweet and not the author in question's twitter bio, shows that I will have no use in conversation with them. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:32, 4 May 2026 (UTC)- I think the main problem is that, for one reason or another, they're poorly aware of their own conflict of interest and therefore can't disengage from viewing the issue through the lens of internet culture wars. I mean, you and I explained the nuances of the term several times, both in general and within the framework of reliable sources and the project's rules, but the user still insisted that refusing to accept queer commissions was tantamount to a declaration of homophobia, or that we should ignore Japanese sources because they personally didn't see any explicit lesbian content in the film. But essentially, they still haven't responded to the fact that yuri is broader than overt romance or even romantic content, or that reliable sources are sufficient to at least describe the issue with attribution, and the fact that the user considers them politically biased is not enough in itself. Solaire the knight (talk) 15:42, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Me having no idea and being useless is whatever, but to claim once again that
- It's pretty clear that the editor isn't participating appropriately. But I really don't love that this was taken to a WikiProject page's talk page (which has no say in either conduct or content disputes) but there was no discussion on the user's talk page, let alone any opportunity for them to learn what Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are. With that said, the politicized motive and broken English give me doubts that they're going to be able to edit on Wikipedia. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:22, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It may be worth noting that after I warned them about disruptive editing against consensus and cited several policies and guidelines, the user ignored that and made an edit that had already been reverted four times, arguing that they had
proved
their point. That being said, I'm not really a huge fan of behavioral discussion on WikiProject pages either (although I very much understand the original poster's frustration, looking at the article's talk page). If the editor is willing to come here and explain how they plan to contribute constructively to the project and listen to consensus, then I don't think any further action is needed. Crestfalling (talk/contribs) 17:05, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It may be worth noting that after I warned them about disruptive editing against consensus and cited several policies and guidelines, the user ignored that and made an edit that had already been reverted four times, arguing that they had
- I apogolise of the debate, its carried away unfortunately. But it could easily be ended, we talk about a genre label that somehow put there by mistake and done nothing to fix it. I had listen them, but they refuse to listen back. In my defense I literally bring the original authors and official works, which was the exact material that started even before the Wikipedia page made. Following the all official works, the genre label never had supported, simply with its not having a romance subplot and the pairing that claimed to be yuri are not even a thing at all, it was obvious from the start. But if it can be suddenly a yuri genre, just because some news sites said so, it can't, we had seen they are easily can be debunked and perhaps, out of control, with more absurd articles you can find at there. If you guys pay attention, I done all the sources, comparison and anlysis. I even see other talk pages that supports my debate. To a material that appear with obvious content, if you guys still insist that a few fanwork artickes a "more reliable source", its very unlikely. I am here if someone want to educate me or prove me wrong Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 09:46, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- As much as we'd want to "educate you" as you put it, you will nevertheless still stubbornly refuse to listen to the other editors trying to make sense of your talking points cordially. Else, you'd be bringing the same spiels and arguments here, but with the presence of administrators. If anything, do please learn of Wikipedia's guidelines and listen to the consensus. JT0219 (talk) 10:05, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I follow what Wikipedia's guidilines say, I did what I asked to, but only thing I get is some weak excuses like "they are about commisions" or "its the undertones". I already proved its have no yuri at all. I only need to convince you guys. Which is supposed to be easy because only counter you have just few random articles from news sites. Even I can open a source in those websites and just write an article of the opposite. Maybe that's when you guts accept it? Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 14:10, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Respectfully speaking, I do not think in the slightest all of the involved editors provided counterarguments that you deem as "weak excuses", as we have made it abundantly clear several times that there is reliable backing to the articles. If you really did thoroughly read the guidelines as you have said, you would have realized the other editors made sound points and constructively discussed with them to reach a definitive conclusion. I would wager you are going to go behind our backs and edit the page again, so think clearly lest a verdict has been reached. JT0219 (talk) 14:44, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Logically speaking, the supposed reliable sources you mentioning, are easily debunkable. As I repeat again, all I have to do is open an account at there and write an opposite article. Its pretty obvious that some mistakes happened lately in Wikipedia, and relied on them but no questioning, despite the original authors and official interview was there. I believe Wikipedia policies and guides simply confused by shipping culture, and its never late to fix this mistake Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 17:29, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Consensus isn't achieved when you place what you think is sufficient proof on the table, declare you're right and then leave the room.
- Consensus is a group of people discussing the available evidence and coming to an agreement on what to do next.
- You cannot have a consensus of one.
- It's always very important to consider the possibility that you might be wrong as well - if there are several people saying different things, at least one is probably wrong and you'll only find out if everyone talks to each other honestly, all open to the idea that they might be the one who made a mistake.
- That's how you find out the truth.
- I'm sure you want the best for the article, yes?
- If you've made an error that makes the article less accurate, wouldn't you want to know about it? I definitely would, that way I'll understand what happened and how to make sure I can do better next time.
- The best way to make sure you're right, is to honestly consider the possibility that you might be wrong. Blue-Sonnet 15:00, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am aware I am 1-versus-5, and I find the wrong on myself. In this case of the argument, you guys had made no progress, I fear. After everything I proved and state, they always took it to where it started, as all did is for nothing. I see a very clear protest here, as if the truth is not under our eyes all the time. All I need is to convince you guys, then fix this mistake and end the debate, I believe its not soo much to ask for Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 17:22, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, you need to reach an agreement with other editors, and do this before you continue to edit the article. You absolutely cannot try to sneak in your preferred edit whilst you think we aren't paying attention - because we are. Blue-Sonnet 10:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am aware I am 1-versus-5, and I find the wrong on myself. In this case of the argument, you guys had made no progress, I fear. After everything I proved and state, they always took it to where it started, as all did is for nothing. I see a very clear protest here, as if the truth is not under our eyes all the time. All I need is to convince you guys, then fix this mistake and end the debate, I believe its not soo much to ask for Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 17:22, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Respectfully speaking, I do not think in the slightest all of the involved editors provided counterarguments that you deem as "weak excuses", as we have made it abundantly clear several times that there is reliable backing to the articles. If you really did thoroughly read the guidelines as you have said, you would have realized the other editors made sound points and constructively discussed with them to reach a definitive conclusion. I would wager you are going to go behind our backs and edit the page again, so think clearly lest a verdict has been reached. JT0219 (talk) 14:44, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I follow what Wikipedia's guidilines say, I did what I asked to, but only thing I get is some weak excuses like "they are about commisions" or "its the undertones". I already proved its have no yuri at all. I only need to convince you guys. Which is supposed to be easy because only counter you have just few random articles from news sites. Even I can open a source in those websites and just write an article of the opposite. Maybe that's when you guts accept it? Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 14:10, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sakura Mokomoto's latest comment on the Anime and Manga project talk page , showing that they still do not understand the sources that they themselves have brought as evidence (claiming a tweet from a random user is evidence of something in a twitter user's bio, when the only evidence the tweet provides is a screenshot of a tweet that is still available and not of the other user's bio), and arguing that they do not need to provide sources for their claims as their OR is enough to prove their claims. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- And Sakura Mokomoto has returned to engaging in back and forth editing to remove the contested word , , with the edit summary
Proved its wrong
. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:21, 5 May 2026 (UTC)- I repeat myself again, its not the pic as I explained to you. Taro did state that on his bio and a follower's tweet saying that he is, at the date the tweet posted. Not the pic, you understand now? Not the pic, its the what the tweet writing on it, the speech, tweet's word, not the pic. Get it? Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 14:04, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- As I said:
claiming a tweet from a random user is evidence of something in a twitter user's bio, when the only evidence the tweet provides is a screenshot of a tweet that is still available and not of the other user's bio
. - A claim from a random anonymous user with no evidence for their claim, is not evidence. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:03, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- A Twitter follower is definitely not a reliable source as far as Wikipedia articles are concerned - it just cannot be used as evidence. Blue-Sonnet 16:02, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- So you say its not existed in history, just because the author changed his bio? I saw it, my friend saw it, lot of people saw it, even its posted in other social medias. This tweet is its evidence. I can't go back in time and bring his bio here, but this claim can't be ignored, besides my other proofs its just another clear hint, all for to you guys finally convinced Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 17:34, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- That simply doesn't matter from the perspective of Wikipedia. We go by verifiability, not truth, and if a statement can't be verified to a reliable source then it doesn't matter if it's true or not. Simonm223 (talk) 17:40, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- You know what? I am really tired of this. We argue this simple little thing for a month, and all my effort wasted just because you guys all protest but no use. I will listen an advice from a friend of mine and I'll quit. There are no use of keep arguing. I hoped I really could just fix this mistake, really tried to make you agree. I believe my sources and proof already enough, more than enough, but you guys say the core ones are not enough, and the highlighting ones are not a Wiki use. I already know the truth, and that is enough, I think. I edit one more time, its up to you if revert it back or not Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 19:16, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- That simply doesn't matter from the perspective of Wikipedia. We go by verifiability, not truth, and if a statement can't be verified to a reliable source then it doesn't matter if it's true or not. Simonm223 (talk) 17:40, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- So you say its not existed in history, just because the author changed his bio? I saw it, my friend saw it, lot of people saw it, even its posted in other social medias. This tweet is its evidence. I can't go back in time and bring his bio here, but this claim can't be ignored, besides my other proofs its just another clear hint, all for to you guys finally convinced Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 17:34, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- As I said:
- I repeat myself again, its not the pic as I explained to you. Taro did state that on his bio and a follower's tweet saying that he is, at the date the tweet posted. Not the pic, you understand now? Not the pic, its the what the tweet writing on it, the speech, tweet's word, not the pic. Get it? Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 14:04, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- And Sakura Mokomoto has returned to engaging in back and forth editing to remove the contested word , , with the edit summary
- As much as we'd want to "educate you" as you put it, you will nevertheless still stubbornly refuse to listen to the other editors trying to make sense of your talking points cordially. Else, you'd be bringing the same spiels and arguments here, but with the presence of administrators. If anything, do please learn of Wikipedia's guidelines and listen to the consensus. JT0219 (talk) 10:05, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Ah yes, that famous pillar of American leftwing politics: the proper application of otaku genre labels to magical girl anime. All levity aside, I'm seeing a lot of effort there to educate this user on the basic principles of WP:NOR and WP:VNT, with nothing much but WP:IDHT in response--although it is difficult to determine how much of this is the result of pure obstinance, as opposed to the language barrier preventing this user from properly internalizing the correct inclusion criteria. But at this juncture, I think a block us necessary to catch this user's attention and stem the edit warring. Whether that should be indefinite with an unblock only after this user confirms an understanding of and intention to comply with WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:OR, or just, say, a week-long block to hopefully stimulate some reading, I'm not sure, but looking at the record and this user's complete lack of concession on these fundamental policy principles, I am confident they are not going to slow their roll without intervention.
As a side note, I do share TBUA and Crestfalling's concerns about the fact that a matter of editorial conduct spent days being fruitlessly debated at the Wikiproject. While the discussion on the article talk page did eventually get around to highlighting the relevant policies guiding the content issue, a lot of that could have come sooner, and I think this highlights the risks of approaching dispute resolution through a strategy of forming ranks to manage a disruptive editor, rather than adopting an approach that foregrounds attempts to communicate directly with them, and thus educate them. I'm not saying these discussions were completely devoid of good faith efforts of that sort, mind you: I see some. But as TBUA notes, once the talk page discussions hit a roadblock with this editor, going to their talk page would probably have been a better option than having a fruitless drumhead process at the WikiProject. I also have some concerns about the previous two threads on the underlying content matter there. While I feel the editors ultimately arrived at the proper approach to when and where to apply the label under existing policy, I hope they are being mindful of WP:Advice pages, and recognizing that they cannot just apply that decision to any article they wish, without further discussion. That is to say, I hope they are aware that they will have to establish a separate WP:LOCALCONSENSUS on the talk page of each article for which the label is disputed in the future.
But, yeah, returning to the core issue of Sakura's conduct, I don't see it improving without administrative intervention. SnowRise let's rap 00:27, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I will admit it is a bit ill-advised of me to bring up the situation at the WikiProject page. I was genuinely stumped on how the debate that is just going in circles in Cosmic Princess Kaguya!'s talk page can be resolved peacefully before resorting to having the administrators intervene, but all attempts really did feel fruitless. So I would like to apologize again for my conduct. JT0219 (talk) 01:56, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, to be clear, I don't think the discussion is a huge issue: I see a lot of good faith and patience in how you and the other editors have approached the situation. I can't speak for TBUA and Crestfalling, of course, but I think the general sentiment we are all trying to get across is not so much that there was bad faith behaviour or abuse of process, so much as just suggesting that next time, if behavioural issues become too distracting for the talk page, try to engage with the editor on their user talk and then if that fails, consider an appropriate forum like this. Or, in extreme cases you might consider skipping direct outreach to the user in question and going straight to an admin or ANI. Because opening a thread about a user on the WikiProject risks giving the impression of tag-teaming a content dispute. Now, having looked at all of the involved discussions in this situation, I am confident that is not what any of you were trying to do; if anything, I see a fair bit of patience with how you all responded to Sakura, honestly. But, that said, my best advice is to keep a content discussion focused on the relevant article talk page, but if it just proves untenable to move forward due to behavioural concerns, that's the point where it should move to user space and/or the appropriate behavioural fora. Just my two cents. SnowRise let's rap 05:53, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- SnowRise phrased things very well. On my part, I also think it probably would've been easiest to take the discussion to the user's talk page once the article talk page started going in circles. Inviting editors knowledgeable in the topic area to weigh in is helpful, but it'd be best to do so with a focus on the article itself as well as a brief and neutral note that there is a content dispute. Editors could then read the discussion and make their own conclusions. That being said, I understand your frustration and am confident you've acted with good faith throughout, so please don't be hard on yourself for this. Crestfalling (talk/contribs) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- For those watching at home, here are all the reverts - including a sneaky one that was made after their last post at ANI, three of these are after the discussion started.
- We unfortunately have a severe case of IDHT that I'm worried won't be solved by a simple timed page block, although it may still be worth a try:
- Blue-Sonnet 10:30, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Proposal: Page Block
It's clear this editor is being disruptive. They're also very new. Suggest a narrow and time-limited page block. Probably in the range of a month. This will end the disruption while allowing the editor WP:ROPE to learn how to edit collaboratively. Simonm223 (talk) 10:53, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support. I think a very narrow, subject- and time-limited sanction makes a lot of sense here. There are some indications that this user is bringing a lot of political and cultural baggage to their editing which may ultimately make them incompatible with collaboration here, but it's too early to write them off in that respect. Limiting the block to one page and one month hits the sweet spot between emphasizing the need for them to change course while giving them ample opportunity to do so, imo. SnowRise let's rap 16:07, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I was thinking. Simonm223 (talk) 17:39, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- The repeated claims that news websites allow anyone to create an account and write articles for them (when they do not), and so should be ignored, would indicate that some mentorship would be needed, as this incorrect understanding is likely to cause issue with sources for other articles. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'll be honest I do not understand what they were getting at with that line of argument. Was it that the authors of news sites are themselves fans and thus unreliable to discuss the topic of their fandom or do they sincerely believe news sites are UGC? Simonm223 (talk) 18:46, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- My cousin done this before, not so hard. I potentically can too Sakura Mokomoto (talk) 19:07, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, what is it you think you can do? Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I noticed that during this discussion, you've made the same disputed edit for the fifth and sixth time, both of which were reverted. I would regret to support sanctions on someone new and clearly passionate about a topic, but I also respect the time of the many volunteers who have tried to patiently explain Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. With apologies for being somewhat direct, this is really your one chance to make a clear commitment to improving your editing, and I hope you consider it. Crestfalling (talk/contribs) 01:15, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- The repeated claims that news websites allow anyone to create an account and write articles for them (when they do not), and so should be ignored, would indicate that some mentorship would be needed, as this incorrect understanding is likely to cause issue with sources for other articles. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I was thinking. Simonm223 (talk) 17:39, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support in view of continued edit warring & refusal to seriously consider the possibility that they might be wrong. This is also the minimum possible sanction to try to get this resolved. Blue-Sonnet 10:11, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and actioned a page-block from Cosmic Princess Kaguya! for 1 month due to the continued edit warring. signed, Rosguill talk 14:43, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Censorship, edit-warring and personal attacks regarding the murder of Samuel Paty
- Murder of Samuel Paty (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- SummerandWinter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The user wants a drawing of Muhammad removed from the article. Their attempts were reverted twice by WWGB, citing WP:NOTCENSORED, and the third time by me. I subsequently reminded them of WP:BRD. Then followed a fourth revert with the edit summary You keep reverting and you will be banned. You have no right to show imagery that was responsible for the killing of the man the Wikipedia article was made by. By these standards, you are no better than the teacher - arguably, even worse - in your conduct. It has no place on this article, it adds nothing, and is features unnecessary nudity.
I also received a message on my talk page along the same lines. This behavior is of course unacceptable, but I'm involved and request that others take action. Favonian (talk) 17:48, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Voorts: I have reopened this since @Victor Matheus Amaral: has continued the same dispute. I have EC protected the article to stop the disruption, and hopefully avoid further blocks. Star Mississippi 00:17, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I noticed the event in recent edits. I verified the image and it does not have reliable sources using it, only obscure blogs and Reddit — Victor Matheus Amaral 00:21, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Was not an edit made in bad faith — Victor Matheus Amaral 00:22, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I noticed the event in recent edits. I verified the image and it does not have reliable sources using it, only obscure blogs and Reddit — Victor Matheus Amaral 00:21, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you thought the problem was improper sourcing, then why was your edit summary
the image you tried to insert is highly offensive and does not justify the little encyclopedic value it could add
? CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:30, 6 May 2026 (UTC)- Because it is. I also sent a message to the guy who last tried to introduce the image, and there I said the image had improper sourcing — Victor Matheus Amaral 00:45, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem to have been a concern when you initially explained your edit. That only became your expressed concern once your attempt to censor Wikipedia got pushback and you found yourself facing scrutiny. Did you make any attempt to find a better source? I agree we should have a better source than an archive from Gawker, but you also suggested that this is a hoax; do you honestly believe in good faith that the image in Charlie Hedbo is actually a hoax ? CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Star Mississippi protected the article at 00:11, 6 May 2026. I said to the guy about the unsourced sources at 23:53, 5 May 2026 (UTC) and you guys mentioned me at 00:17, 6 May 2026 (UTC). So I made the message before public scrutiny. And I know the image exists, but what we don't know is if the image that is present in the article was the original one. You missed the point — Victor Matheus Amaral 01:00, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you know the image exists, then why did you write
No reliable sources have shown the image. It could even be made up
? I'm sorry, but from the shifting explanations and the convenient timing to suddenly jump into a controversial removal, my distinct impression is that you want the image removed, whatever approach you need to use. But since I don't think you'll convince me, I won't beat the dead horse anymore. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)- I will note, however, that it took me about 25 seconds to find an NBC News source characterizing the image in the same way. . CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:44, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, my fault. But I am still against the inclusion of that image, for the same reasons present in my edit summary. I will not further discuss this topic. — Victor Matheus Amaral 02:12, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I will note, however, that it took me about 25 seconds to find an NBC News source characterizing the image in the same way. . CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:44, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you know the image exists, then why did you write
- Star Mississippi protected the article at 00:11, 6 May 2026. I said to the guy about the unsourced sources at 23:53, 5 May 2026 (UTC) and you guys mentioned me at 00:17, 6 May 2026 (UTC). So I made the message before public scrutiny. And I know the image exists, but what we don't know is if the image that is present in the article was the original one. You missed the point — Victor Matheus Amaral 01:00, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem to have been a concern when you initially explained your edit. That only became your expressed concern once your attempt to censor Wikipedia got pushback and you found yourself facing scrutiny. Did you make any attempt to find a better source? I agree we should have a better source than an archive from Gawker, but you also suggested that this is a hoax; do you honestly believe in good faith that the image in Charlie Hedbo is actually a hoax ? CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Because it is. I also sent a message to the guy who last tried to introduce the image, and there I said the image had improper sourcing — Victor Matheus Amaral 00:45, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you thought the problem was improper sourcing, then why was your edit summary
- Voorts' first block for disruptive editing was proper to stop the immediate disruption, but the exact content of the edits is troubling beyond the initial disruption/edit-warring.
The imagery undermines the point of the article, and makes the reader, understandably, hate the teacher who was killed. Wikipedia shouldn't be a place to showcase disgusting and Islamophobic content. So, I removed it.
You keep reverting and you will be banned. You have no right to show imagery that was responsible for the killing of the man the Wikipedia article was made by. By these standards, you are no better than the teacher - arguably, even worse - in your conduct. It has no place on this article, it adds nothing, and is features unnecessary nudity.
- This isn't at all like edit-warring at, say celery or Ford Taurus, and I'm really troubled that this is on the edge of suggesting that the murder victim is the offending party in the crime reported in the situation, and editors who also exercise their right to express speech in accordance with Wikimedia's terms of service are similar guilty (or, "even worse"). And this diff in the Crucifixion of Jesus requires a lot of good faith given the contentious nature of the topic and that it creates an unresolvable contradiction in the lead. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- to be clear @CoffeeCrumbs, I did not mean to imply there was an issue with @Voorts' block. It was the correct course of action. Just that the block did not resolve the issue so I was reopening the thread vs. opening another since there's already an unrelated thread about @Victor Matheus Amaral's edits. Star Mississippi 00:54, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oh, I didn't mean to suggest you were casting shade, I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't implying any issue with Voorts' action. I rather over-clarify than under-clarify! CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:59, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Absolutely. Apologies for misunderstanding @CoffeeCrumbs Star Mississippi 01:59, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oh, I didn't mean to suggest you were casting shade, I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't implying any issue with Voorts' action. I rather over-clarify than under-clarify! CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:59, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- to be clear @CoffeeCrumbs, I did not mean to imply there was an issue with @Voorts' block. It was the correct course of action. Just that the block did not resolve the issue so I was reopening the thread vs. opening another since there's already an unrelated thread about @Victor Matheus Amaral's edits. Star Mississippi 00:54, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment @CoffeeCrumbs and Star Mississippi: Actually, I don't think that second image which the user keeps removing does belong in the article, but for a completely different reason. It's a non-free image, we already have one Charlie Hebdo non-free image in the article, and this second one is not being used to illustrate the topic which the article is about, but is illustrating the issue of the Charlie Hebdo killings themselves, which we already have a perfectly serviceable article about. I'd say the use of that image fails NFCC#3a and NFCC#8. Black Kite (talk) 06:29, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- That's a perfectly reasonable position! But neither of these editors were citing that, but were transparent attempts to censor. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 06:54, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on whether it belongs or not @Black Kite and haven't even looked into it. I simply protected the article because Victor picked right up from the edit war of the now blocked editor. I'm explicitly saying not a sock, that's not a concern here at all but we were headed for an edit warring block I wanted to avoid. I opened a thread on the Talk when I protected it Star Mississippi 13:25, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
Mighty Beaver 1953: NOTHERE POV-pushing in current election
Mighty Beaver 1953 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Is a WP:SPA created in January to edit the 2026 Conservative Party of British Columbia leadership election (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) page and candidate BLPs, favouring certain candidates over others and blatantly pushing their POV into articles via editorializing and WP:PEACOCK language.
Today, in edits like this, they refer to their preferred candidates' endorsements in glowing language ( -> businessman and television personality
business magnate and star panelist on hit TV series
) and introduce self-published endorsements contrary to established WP:ENDORSE policy. here, they add irrelevant puffery to their preferred candidates' background, while removing their past relevant background as part of the BC United party. But wait, here, they refer to their preferred candidates' opponent as a "BC Liberal MLA" (former name of BC United) in amongst other editorializing language and while establishing they will edit war to get the info on Elliott in the article. They have ignored a talk page message from last night and/or edited logged out to reply to it. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 16:50, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Dan Gurney is deliberately deleting sourced information on multiple candidates in an election because (Redacted).
- dan’s message received a prompt reply.
- he continues to delete sourced information in order to slant the article in favour of Iain. Shameful behaviour.
- gurney selectively only deletes endorsements from pages not about Iain. He has deleted the Gordon Campbell endorsement, sitting MLA endorsements, etc
- they are not self published, these are news article cited endorsements.
- dan is disguising the fact (Redacted). ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Dan complains about adding BC Liberal/United to Iain’s profile, but he has, 3 or four times now, done the exact same to multiple other candidates, and editorializing his perspective on events in those roles. Again, (Redacted). This is ridiculous. How do we suspend him from editing these pages, it’s not appropriate or ethical for Dan to edit war (Redacted). ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 17:01, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Consider the fact that Dan Gurney died in 2018 and can't have possibly done any of what you're accusing him of... MSport1005 (talk) 18:17, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think they mean the editor GhostOfDanGurney? Blue-Sonnet 18:52, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah I was going off that assumption too. Hi, MSport1005, hope you're doing well. Outside of Motorsports, particularly in Canadian politics articles, other editors often just call me "Dan", which I'm used to. Though, considering what this one is accusing me of, I would find it very funny if they don't know the legendary racing driver and they actually think my name is "Dan Gurney" and are trying to tie a "Dan Gurney" to this Iain Black political candidate. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 21:18, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi Ghost, hope I find you well too — It all makes for an amusing read for sure. These politicians would be honored if they knew they have the endorsement of Dan Gurney! MSport1005 (talk) 23:58, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah I was going off that assumption too. Hi, MSport1005, hope you're doing well. Outside of Motorsports, particularly in Canadian politics articles, other editors often just call me "Dan", which I'm used to. Though, considering what this one is accusing me of, I would find it very funny if they don't know the legendary racing driver and they actually think my name is "Dan Gurney" and are trying to tie a "Dan Gurney" to this Iain Black political candidate. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 21:18, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think they mean the editor GhostOfDanGurney? Blue-Sonnet 18:52, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Consider the fact that Dan Gurney died in 2018 and can't have possibly done any of what you're accusing him of... MSport1005 (talk) 18:17, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for the belly laugh. PS: WP:ASPERSIONS ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 17:03, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- For what it's worth I was pinged to the article by MediaKyle in order to help clean up the multiple instances where self-published sources had been used as a citation to an endorsement, assuming choosing me because I was the one who pushed hard for such policy to be enforced at 2026 New Democratic Party leadership election. I find the immediate, specific, evidence-less accusation of being a staffer for the very candidate that MB1953 has been adding snide terms like "fired" to to be hilarious. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 17:16, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- WP:PBAN
- @WP:PBAN
- GhostOfDanGurney ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 17:21, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you have non-public evidence of conflict of interest you can email it to paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org. Do not post it publicly. I have provided further info on outing on your talk page. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:21, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ok will send an email there. Thanks for instructions on ho to do that. ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 17:22, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- ARBCOM knows my first/last name and my location isn't difficult to glean from my edit history (spoiler: it's in Ontario). This is just a brazen attempt to deflect from my OP. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 17:35, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Your OP is inaccurate and you ignored the substance of all replies. ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 17:45, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Are you MB1953, and if not, why are you here on their behalf? My OP has diffs for evidence. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 17:47, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Your OP is inaccurate and you ignored the substance of all replies. ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 17:45, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Dan complains about adding BC Liberal/United to Iain’s profile, but he has, 3 or four times now, done the exact same to multiple other candidates, and editorializing his perspective on events in those roles. Again, (Redacted). This is ridiculous. How do we suspend him from editing these pages, it’s not appropriate or ethical for Dan to edit war (Redacted). ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 17:01, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Instead of replying here (while logged in), MB1953 has instead uploaded two copyvio images of their preferred candidate to Commons, claimed as their work, and added them to the article. At this time I am proposing a block as clearly NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 22:56, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- @~2026-27146-70 and/or @Mighty Beaver 1953, can you please confirm whether you:
- do own the copyright to those photos as per your copyright declaration, or
- do not own the copyright and made a false copyright declaration?
- If #1, what is the nature of your relationship to the subjects of your photographs?
- Many thanks. Blue-Sonnet 11:17, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I was given permission to use the photo by the owner. I have no relationship with the photo subjects. I just asked the owner because I was making the Wikipedia page and needed a photo. ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 01:11, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for confirming - did you already know the copyright owner? I'm just wondering how you knew who to contact for an image. I'm also a little surprised that they were happy for you to declare it as your own work in the license and not attribute it to them, did they give you consent to do this as well?
- BTW It'd be great if you can please edit whilst logged in, so we can be sure that we're speaking to the right person, thanks! Blue-Sonnet 04:29, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I was given permission to use the photo by the owner. I have no relationship with the photo subjects. I just asked the owner because I was making the Wikipedia page and needed a photo. ~2026-27146-70 (talk) 01:11, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- @~2026-27146-70 and/or @Mighty Beaver 1953, can you please confirm whether you:
- MB1953 has also created the BLP article Caroline Elliott, which has been nominated for speedy deletion as TOOSOON and overtly promotional, while admitting to posting here while logged out. Can we have some sort of action now? ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 13:35, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing and aspersions / false claims
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have previously interacted with WhatamIdoing (talk · contribs) several times over WP:PERENNIAL proposals that crop up at Suicide methods. These have almost invariably dealt with whether or not to place suicide prevention disclaimers on the pages and various auxiliary topics (like whether or not to remove comments from banned sockpuppets on this topic).
This incident is related, initially, to one of these proposals. However, in particular, it regards some blatantly false claims and offensive WP:ASPERSIONs that the user in question has refused to walk back. The first is that
Looking at your few edits to this article, which have largely involved removing prevention-related content that was subsequently restored over your objections by consensus, I guess I just don't feel confident trusting your view about this article's purpose.
This is emphatically false, which I demonstrated -- not a single edit I made to the article was subsequently restored over [my] objections by consensus
. I asked that the user strike their claim, which they declined and made a much more egregious aspersion:
I see a clear pattern of bias against suicide prevention in your edits.
The main thing I object to here, other than refusing to strike a very pointed claim that is patently false, is mischaracterizing my edits as a bias against suicide prevention
, emphasis my own, instead of simply reverting inappropriate HTML comments and lede images that are explicitly meant to act as disclaimers. After making this known and asking again for the user to strike her comments, she declined, or continues to change the goalposts to avoid doing so, so I am bringing it here.
I simply would like the aspersion and the false claim struck, and a verbal agreement not to make similar claims (or rather not to double-down on such claims) again. I understand this may seem like a small issue to bring up at WP:ANI, but the refusal to engage in WP:AGF (i.e., refusal to admit that I in fact do not want people to commit suicide) and walk back easily-disproven claims in order to discount arguments, is concerning for someone I consistently interact with on volatile pages. wound theology◈ 21:49, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- I invite you to read the pages you are linking to. In WP:ASPERSIONS, please pay particular attention to the sentence that says Avoid claiming that someone is casting aspersions just because they have a different opinion, have exaggerated a situation, or have overreacted to an everyday event (e.g., if they call your edit "vandalism"). There is no rule that says I have to see your participation on Suicide methods the same way that you do, or that I have to pretend that I find your participation there to be desirable. You, in return, are free to decide whether you think my edits to that article, such as these , are a positive contribution. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:07, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am talking specifically about your claim that I am
bias[ed] against suicide prevention
, which -- again -- is not only an uncharitable framing to say the least but also deeply offensive. This is the WP:ASPERSION, a[a]n attack on someone's reputation or character
without evidence -- particularly that I am against suicide prevention (rather than how perennial proposals are often shoved into the page) and refusing to simply strike your objectively false claim about my edits. wound theology◈ 22:16, 1 May 2026 (UTC)- Quote the whole thing, please:
- "I see a clear pattern of bias against suicide prevention in your edits. You don't have to agree with me, and you certainly don't have to publicly admit that you agree with me, but I think my interpretation is not unreasonable."
- I'm not saying I'm right. I'm telling you what your behavior looks like, from where I'm sitting. You are free to disagree with me about your internal situation. But you don't get to tell me what I see. My perception is my perception, even if you believe my perception is wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:04, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
- You can couch your comments in whatever justification you want, but in the context of the discussion you know exactly what you are implying.
- Again, as I have pointed out before, you are hyperfocused on little bits of my overall comments while ignoring the forest for the trees: you made an objectively false claim, in order to discard an argument I made, that I asked you to strike after demonstrating exactly why and how it was incorrect. You've instead doubled-down on claiming I have a bias on suicide prevention.
- Content aside, the fact you are still unwilling to admit that your claim was simply false and strike it accordingly is my issue here.
- So you can either
- a) Double-down on your insistence that your original claim was true despite it being demonstrably false;
- b) Double-down on your refusal to strike the claim or remove it even though you know it is false, or
- c) Just strike the claim.
- (a) is simply untenable. There is not a single example of any edit to the page I've made being restored by consensus. Even conceding the single (again hyperfocused) example you've insisted on (which, again, was not restored unless you somehow misconstrue my objection to the image itself instead of it being used as a disclaimer), to say that my edits
largely involved removing prevention-related content that was subsequently restored over [my] objections by consensus
is objectively and demonstrably false. - Again, in the context of the article here, you've randomly levied an accusation in order to discard an argument of mine and refuse to strike or even admit that this demonstrably false accusation is in fact demonstrably false. That is a major problem with your ability to collaboratively contribute to an encyclopedia which contains articles on controversial ideas. wound theology◈ 02:40, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Nobody's forcing you to state your perspective aloud, though. You don't get a get-out-of-jail-free card because you say "maybe that's not actually true but that's how it seems to me" Athanelar (talk) 10:50, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am talking specifically about your claim that I am
- I find
"I see a clear pattern of bias against suicide prevention in your edits"
to be a neutral and a good faith explanation of an editor's own interpretation of your actions. Based on what I'm seeing on the talk page, I have to admit I wouldn't disagree with WAID's interpretation, either. - This certainly is not casting aspersions. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 03:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm less concerned with this particular interpretation than with the logic used to justify it. wound theology◈ 03:17, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's pretty small as WP:ASPERSIONS go, and probably doesn't rise to beyond an eye roll and a head shake at the action, but I do think that this is an aspersion. I don't like the idea that adding perception/feeling/observation/opinion to negative things about an editor launders an aspersion into a civil observation. Now, for sure, it's not as bad as saying, without diffs, that
it's my observation that you're bigoted/racist/homophobic/dishonest/stupid
but it's also certainly far worse than, say, suggesting that wound theology has a bias against graham crackers or Terry Gilliam movies. When it's something that, if believed widely, would put an editor into disrepute, I think there's a heightened level of care required. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:41, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, you're probably correct about the tempest under the slide cover (although that metaphor took some re-reads to understand). But in my defense, the claim is just dead wrong, and was shared specifically to attack my interpretation of the page and why it exists (that is, because we're an encyclopedia -- it does not exist expressedly to prevent suicide, as WAID claims, any more than our page on war exists to promote peace, though I assume and hope we all prefer the latter).
- WAID essentially made a very pointed accusation that I've only worked to prevent safety measures, and more perniciously and (I cannot stress this enough) falsely, that most of my edits were overturned by consensus. This framing (which, to be clear, is used in what is really a minor content dispute about a page that isn't even in the mainspace), is what I think is a major issue: "I don't trust your ability to make policy-based argument because [something that didn't happen] implies you have a moral failing". wound theology◈ 06:28, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Much of that is perfectly fair, and I suspect that I would feel somewhat similarly to you in these circumstances. However, at this juncture, you need to ask yourself what you are hoping to accomplish here. Because in my roughly two decades with the project, I have literally never seen the community force someone to strike a comment that a party is determined to view as fairplay--and a sanction for the commentary itself is just not in the cards here, I think we can tell you with confidence. Because there's just not enough in terms of incivility, disruption, or other issues with project behavioural norms to justify even a minimal intervention of that sort. I don't even think a warning is warranted here. In practical rhetorical terms I think that WAID's approach in a couple of those comments was suboptimal, hence my observations above, but that's a far cry from a sanction and I don't think your fixation on a formal concession is going to move you two past this difference of opinion that is slowly morphing into a contest of wills. And forcing precisely that concession from WAID seems to be your main objective here. Although in many other circumstances I am skeptical that taking complaints to another user's talk page is more likely to result in positive reconciliation/meeting of the minds, rather than further ratcheting of the tensions, I think in this case that is probably where you should have gone, if you just couldn't live with those comments and were not prepared to live with just challenging the assertion about the record on the article talk page. Honestly, having reviewed the talk page, I think there is a lot of talking past one another going on there. And most of it from people I would normally expect to be listening better. SnowRise let's rap 07:09, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- As for what I want to be done, I essentially just don't want this obviously-incorrect claim to be made again, and WAID has essentially ignored admitting that it is, in fact, false. That's really all I want, striking or not; I asked for striking because in my experience that is generally how errors in talk pages are dealt with -- I've done it myself many times if someone requests it and demonstrates that I've made a factual error.
- It is an incredibly pointed and frankly offensive claim being used to discard a policy-based argument. "Oh, I misread the edits" would have sufficed but WAID has doubled-down and hyperfixated on minor points (whether or not an objection to an image used in the lede counts as a restoration if it was placed in a different part of the article, etc.) instead of the overall crux of my issue with it, which is that it is not only an unfair characterization of my edits on that page, but that it is factually incorrect. wound theology◈ 07:36, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Much of that is perfectly fair, and I suspect that I would feel somewhat similarly to you in these circumstances. However, at this juncture, you need to ask yourself what you are hoping to accomplish here. Because in my roughly two decades with the project, I have literally never seen the community force someone to strike a comment that a party is determined to view as fairplay--and a sanction for the commentary itself is just not in the cards here, I think we can tell you with confidence. Because there's just not enough in terms of incivility, disruption, or other issues with project behavioural norms to justify even a minimal intervention of that sort. I don't even think a warning is warranted here. In practical rhetorical terms I think that WAID's approach in a couple of those comments was suboptimal, hence my observations above, but that's a far cry from a sanction and I don't think your fixation on a formal concession is going to move you two past this difference of opinion that is slowly morphing into a contest of wills. And forcing precisely that concession from WAID seems to be your main objective here. Although in many other circumstances I am skeptical that taking complaints to another user's talk page is more likely to result in positive reconciliation/meeting of the minds, rather than further ratcheting of the tensions, I think in this case that is probably where you should have gone, if you just couldn't live with those comments and were not prepared to live with just challenging the assertion about the record on the article talk page. Honestly, having reviewed the talk page, I think there is a lot of talking past one another going on there. And most of it from people I would normally expect to be listening better. SnowRise let's rap 07:09, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
"I see a clear pattern of bias against suicide prevention in your edits"as identifying that you are biased specifically against including suicide prevention measures on the article. I realize there's a more literal interpretation of being biased against preventing suicide in general, which I think would be an assumption of bad faith on your part. I thus default to WP:AAGF presuming that WAID meant the former.All that said, communication is a team sport and we can't just rely on WP:AGF to round perception of comments up into civility. WAID, I do think you owe Wound a clarification of what you truly meant. I also think if you did truly mean that you think Wound harbors some sort of pro-suicide stance, then I think Wound owes it to you to demonstrate good faith by addressing those concerns calmly and civilly.Wound, I see that you very staunchly argue against including suicide-prevention measures at the article, citing P&Gs such as WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NODISCLAIMERS. I see that it's something of a perennial proposal for that page, too, which you have responded to twice so far. This exchange from the talk page highlights my concern uncannily well:
WAID's response is genuinely informative, assumes good faith, and invites further discussion about ways to improve the article. Wound's response is none of those things. Neither is Wound's response to coolgurl's unrelated thread afterwards. Wound, has it ever occurred to you that being dismissive and flippant with people on the other side of the screen is, as a general rule, a bad idea particularly in this topic?None of this rises to the level of needing sanctions or anything. But, Wound, I hope you keep this in mind for the future, that you could be behaved a little better here. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 06:27, 2 May 2026 (UTC)Remove the protected thing from the talking area that’s really disappointing that they are censoring. What non-registered users think about this page and it’s existence at all
I don’t like this page. This would not have helped at all when I was younger and going through some stuff. This definitely would’ve made things worse for me. I think it should be removed or heavily reformed (blocked sock) 18:15, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
- @(blocked sock), when this talk page was open to unregistered editors, we got a lot of abusive messages – the kind of comments aimed at people going through a mental health situation that you'd expect to see in a poorly moderated internet forum, instead of comments about how to improve the article.
- I agree that this article needs significant work. I also believe that it's improved compared to points in the past. I think we need more emphasis on the things academics write about, such as the prevalence in different countries and method-specific prevention methods. For example, in many countries (but not the US), pesticides are a common method, so restricting purchases and regulating storage saves lives. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:26, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not censored. This is a perennial discussion, you are not the first to suggest it should be removed nor will you be the last. wound theology◈ 23:21, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
- And in the end, Coded message of truth (talk · contribs) ended up being a sockpuppet of a known vandal, as was Dustfreeworld (talk · contribs), another (seperate) user who made a similar proposal before Coded, and Coolgurl ended up vandalizing the page after realizing how much of a WP:SNOWBALL her proposal was. Indeed what I said was true: Wikipedia is not censored, and these proposals will be made time and time again as they have been for twenty years now. With the exception of Coolgurl, who just seems to have lost her cool for a bit, the time spent on the two other users was ultimately time that could have been better spent improving the encyclopedia.
- You may dislike my tone, but my response to both Coded, Coolgirl, and Dustfreeworld assumed good faith -- I even said, recently and explicitly, that -- while their actions do go against policy and in some cases are blockable offenses -- generally their "heart is in the right place" and they did what they felt was right. If I link to the relevant policy, that does not mean I am not assuming good faith -- people break policy, knowingly and unknowingly, all the time and retain good faith.
- That being said, like it or not, my response is informative. Coded explicitly suggested that the page should be
removed or heavily reformed
, the relevant policy is WP:CENSOR. While WhatamIdoing's response was informative on some topics, it also didn't touch on the obvious and immediate problem with the proposal given. Whether or not you dislike my tone, any prospective editor needs to know that non-censorship is one of Wikipedia's cornerstone policies, any response to a proposal for such censorship is incomplete at best. - I cannot stress enough that there are many editors, probably some involved in this very conversation, who are younger in real life than the oldest proposals related to this dispute. For two decades, every single proposal -- deletion, censorship, disclaimers -- has invariably failed. In the end, competency is required, and Wikipedia is not WP:THERAPY. New editors should ignore all rules if it stops them from editing, but if they do break policy, they should also be informed of this.
- About WP:AAGF: WhatamIdoing made it explicit that they did not WP:AGF when they stated that they did not trust my (policy-based) arguments because they percieved me to be biased against suicide prevention. wound theology◈ 06:55, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- You had no way to know they were bad faith contributors at the time, though.
- I didn't know about the vandalism thing. coolgurl was a good faith contributor before that point, and remains a good faith contributor afterwards. Frankly, I think they were a good faith contributor during, too - it was just a simple outburst and had been reasonably provoked. I see someone gave coolgurl a maximum level user warning template, which is absolutely not justified for a well established contributor who had a provoked reaction. I take issue with your participation in the matter on coolgurl's talk page about this, and I again commend WAID's insightful input in comparison to your own . You do not need to be calling anyone "malicious" in this situation.
- I see on the original thread that I am not the only editor who had ever raised concerns with you about things related to this matter. Wound, I think you should consider taking a step back from the dispute. I've already invited WAID (and will invite them again, with a hidden ping) to clarify the intent of their original message, but they aren't required to do that, and I certainly don't think striking out their comment is necessary if they don't want to it themselves. Aside from that, though, I don't see any reason to prolong this thread any further. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 09:04, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- First, as I explicitly said, both here and on the original thread, I also think that
were a good faith contributor during, too
and I said the same for both Coded message of truth and Dustfreeworld:while their actions do go against policy and in some cases are blockable offenses -- generally their "heart is in the right place" and they did what they felt was right
. This is right here in the message you are responding to, and your first sentence here is claiming that I believed they werebad faith contributors
. About coolgurl in specific, I said shejust seems to have lost her cool for a bit
. Genuine question: did you actually read what you are responding to? - Second, take all the issue you want with my "participation" on her talk page, but her actions were literal vandalism, as she herself admitted, which is by definition malicious: per WP:VANDALISM it is
deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose
, and coolgurl's actions were themalicious removal of encyclopedic content
. Again, this is according to policy. The maximum-level user warning template was justified, in fact, a short-term block would have been justified. You and coolgurl both seem to misunderstand the warning policy. Also, if one can be easily-provoked
into vandalizing pages they disagree with, then they do not belong on Wikipedia, point-blank. - Third, the two other editors who were concerned were satisfied with my explanation of my comment when they prompted me to explain. wound theology◈ 09:53, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- I said "you had no way to know they were bad faith contributors" in reference to Coded and Dust, and not to coolgurl. I was not trying to imply that you thought coolgurl was a bad faith editor; that's why I separated into paragraphs, to imply the second part is about coolgurl, and the first part is about the other two. I could have been more clear there, but
Genuine question: did you actually read what you are responding to?
is not what I like to see someone say to me. I read your message, and I replied to it assuming you wouldn't assume I didn't read your message. I spend a lot more effort writing my comments than I do reading what I am replying to (I assume we all do), so if you catch me saying something that implies I misread you, then feel free to call me out on it. But this was not that. - Nobody here is your enemy, and I sense from your tone that you beg to differ. I'd like to ask you again, to take a step back from the dispute here and breathe. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 10:18, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- I explicitly stated that I think neither Coded nor Dust were bad faith contributors, and I said that again in the message you are responding to again ("
said the same for both Coded message of truth and Dustfreeworld
"). Sorry, but it very much seems like you are not actually reading what I write, because you again make a claim about something that I have explicitly addressed twice now. I will bold this for your benefit: I do not think that Coded nor Dust were bad faith contributors and I believe both were doing what they thought was right. Please take special note of this. It does seem to me that you are not reading my messages as carefully as you claim. Since a major point of my messages here have been the difference between good faith, competence, and policy-based editing, it is imperative you understand this. wound theology◈ 10:36, 2 May 2026 (UTC)- Thank you for clarifying, that's the part I missed. I think you and I might have a different interpretation of what "good faith" means in the context of Wikipedia; someone who is trying to right great wrongs through disruptive editing, I still interpret to be editing in bad faith. I don't define bad faith as being literal malice; although there is certainly overlap. Almost anybody who is a sockpuppet of a known vandal is, by my interpretation, here in bad faith, and I did definitely read the part of your message where you said that both Coded and Dust were socks of vandals. I think if you had my definition of bad faith, I assume you would come to the same conclusion.
- It's an interesting distinction, and I'd love to oblige in a discussion of the differences and the nuances. Maybe we can chat about it outside of ANI some time, if you're interested?
- In any case, I'll have to come back to this all with a clearer head tomorrow. Lots of text on the screen, and I am hungry and sleepy. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 11:20, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- I explicitly stated that I think neither Coded nor Dust were bad faith contributors, and I said that again in the message you are responding to again ("
- I said "you had no way to know they were bad faith contributors" in reference to Coded and Dust, and not to coolgurl. I was not trying to imply that you thought coolgurl was a bad faith editor; that's why I separated into paragraphs, to imply the second part is about coolgurl, and the first part is about the other two. I could have been more clear there, but
- First, as I explicitly said, both here and on the original thread, I also think that
- (edit conflict) I can see why WAID's comments would be interpreted as pejorative by someone but at the same time it can also be a factual representation of someone's perspective as observed by someone else. At the very least, it does not qualify as an WP:ASPERSION as stated and at the very most, it wasn't a very nice thing to say but sometimes conversations require or cause us to say not-nice things. It's very unlikely that this is something the community will decide should be struck or make enforcements against because it's not beyond the pale and assumes a characteristic of your contributions and not yourself (WT). My two cents. --qedk (t 愛 c) 10:36, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sometimes WhatamIdoing instead of WP:FOC will use a non-user talk page to comment about another user's conduct or characteristics, e.g. "I'm saying that your RSN comment shows that you are known to have engaged in a behavior that concerns me, "I'm tired of you telling lies about what I've done.", and this case. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:31, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The latter comment linked is very ironic given WAID's insistence on keeping up a false claim she made about my edits. wound theology◈ 04:48, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Julian in LA
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Julian in LA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I was alerted to this one on my talk page, but won't have time to look deeper today. If others could look at the talk page sections Talk:California_genocide#19th-century_California_Indians_were_not_human and more recently Talk:California_genocide#Did California ranchers obey the law? and consider how Julian's rhetoric is causing disruption here. I am, of course, most bothered by this posting which includes the statement Whites did not become a master race by doing stupid things
(and the follow up to it). Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 08:25, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- His facts in citing the many writings of 19th century racists, well, he's not wrong there: they were racists, and often resorting to sickening terms. But he does seem a bit around the twist in his arguments: his repeated harping on characterizations of Indians as domestic beasts noteworthy among them. I wouldn't say he's said anything sanction-worthy though ... quite yet. Ravenswing 09:43, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- There are concerns on Julian in LA with regards to their reading of the sources they use and quote. Others have already pointed out on multiple occasions that Julian in LA will provide a direct quote from a book, but give the completely wrong page number. Then we have that Julian in LA seems to claim that modern academics quoting from racists in the 19th and 20th centuries to show how the racists viewed Native Americans is in someway endorsing said views that Native Americans were inferior, even that the work of one academic was akin to a
racist screed
. - Then, with a comment like this one
I plan to add sections on compulsory bathing of Indians and discriminatory denial of alcohol to Indians. Both are supported by numerous reliable sources, referring to periods long before 1876. We are still discussing whether grazing by Indians should be included in the background for enslavement.
, it absolutely reeks of concern trolling. - So, while the source Julian in LA has chosen to focus much of their discussion on may not be the best source to use in the article based on the academic reviews Julian in LA has pointed to, their arguments and behaviour suggest potentially being NOTHERE. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:01, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- There are concerns on Julian in LA with regards to their reading of the sources they use and quote. Others have already pointed out on multiple occasions that Julian in LA will provide a direct quote from a book, but give the completely wrong page number. Then we have that Julian in LA seems to claim that modern academics quoting from racists in the 19th and 20th centuries to show how the racists viewed Native Americans is in someway endorsing said views that Native Americans were inferior, even that the work of one academic was akin to a
- Quickly perusing the conduct at that talk page, it appears a topic ban might be the best course of action. Katzrockso (talk) 12:00, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Regrettably, I think that is the minimum of what has to happen here. I have actually been anticipating someone making this report for some weeks now, after a random RfC notice brought me to the talk page in question, where I observed a lot of problematic behaviour from this user and a lot of patience (but unfortunately also a lot of wasted time) on the part of a significant number of more experienced users. Unfortunately it appears these issues have not abated but rather intensified since. As chance and the FRS system would have it, I also had occasion to view Julian's contributions on other articles, where he has been much more productive, but bluntly speaking, it is hard to overemphasize just how inappropriate much of his commentary has been at California Genocide, which involves weeks of bludgeoning of the talk page to push his personal theory on the article subject--which essentially reduces to the position that the genocide is an ahistorical construct of "propaganda" created by "liberal politicians". He gives every appearance of approaching this topic through a fundamentally WP:NOTHERE culture war lens, and engages with the sources in an extremely dubious, if not outright misrepesentative fashion. All of which would be problematic enough, but what has pushed his conduct beyond the pall and into deeply disruptive territory is the near-ceaseless race-baiting in his rhetoric. It is hard to classify with certainty whether he thinks he is being clever by repeatedly comparing native populations to animals or making sarcastic references to how the "the Evil Whites" are being vilified for making the natives bathe, rather than genuine racial commentary, but a best-case scenario is that these are extremely WP:POINTY and WP:TENDENTIOUS comments--and frankly, with each additional comment along these lines, it becomes increasingly difficult to WP:AGF even that far. In any event, it is pretty clear at this point that Julian has come to the article with a pet theory wholly inconsistent with any reasonable read of the sourcing, and an agenda to push that POV into the article, and will not be be dissuaded by consensus to the contrary. To be honest, his conduct at that article raises serious questions about his basic capacity to contribute to this project where his personal views depart from the available sourcing, and I question if anything but a full indef will accomplish anything other than kicking the can down the road. On the other hand, as I said, I have observed more controlled contributions on articles that do not appear to trigger his political bugbears. But for a certainty, he needs to be removed from this particular page, like yesterday. My appreciation to the numerous editors on that talk page who have engaged with him with patience and good faith to this point over the last couple of months, but enough is enough with this drain on volunteer time, as far as I am concerned. SnowRise let's rap 15:13, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I did have a look through other contributions to see if similar behaviour was exhibited in potentially other articles relating to Native Americans, but near all of their edits outside of the California genocide article are not related to Native Americans. I dug into their contributions on the talkpage of the article Economy of Cuba, as the topic budges up to being contentious or controversial, but there the comments don't really raise much concern, with the worst being
Applying the word to Batista but not Castro makes you sound like a supporter of the current regime
(the word in question beingdictator
). -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2026 (UTC)- My main concern with their participation there was that I'm not confident they have the experience and literacy with policy to provide a particularly useful WP:3O, but there are no firm requirements in that respect and clearly their intention is good faith in that situation. SnowRise let's rap 15:58, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'd regret to see sanctions more severe than a topic ban, as I have seen positive contributions by this editor in responding to COI requests, but I could see myself supporting them if necessary. Some sort of sanction seems to be necessary to curtail this disruption, however. Katzrockso (talk) 15:54, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I did have a look through other contributions to see if similar behaviour was exhibited in potentially other articles relating to Native Americans, but near all of their edits outside of the California genocide article are not related to Native Americans. I dug into their contributions on the talkpage of the article Economy of Cuba, as the topic budges up to being contentious or controversial, but there the comments don't really raise much concern, with the worst being
- Regrettably, I think that is the minimum of what has to happen here. I have actually been anticipating someone making this report for some weeks now, after a random RfC notice brought me to the talk page in question, where I observed a lot of problematic behaviour from this user and a lot of patience (but unfortunately also a lot of wasted time) on the part of a significant number of more experienced users. Unfortunately it appears these issues have not abated but rather intensified since. As chance and the FRS system would have it, I also had occasion to view Julian's contributions on other articles, where he has been much more productive, but bluntly speaking, it is hard to overemphasize just how inappropriate much of his commentary has been at California Genocide, which involves weeks of bludgeoning of the talk page to push his personal theory on the article subject--which essentially reduces to the position that the genocide is an ahistorical construct of "propaganda" created by "liberal politicians". He gives every appearance of approaching this topic through a fundamentally WP:NOTHERE culture war lens, and engages with the sources in an extremely dubious, if not outright misrepesentative fashion. All of which would be problematic enough, but what has pushed his conduct beyond the pall and into deeply disruptive territory is the near-ceaseless race-baiting in his rhetoric. It is hard to classify with certainty whether he thinks he is being clever by repeatedly comparing native populations to animals or making sarcastic references to how the "the Evil Whites" are being vilified for making the natives bathe, rather than genuine racial commentary, but a best-case scenario is that these are extremely WP:POINTY and WP:TENDENTIOUS comments--and frankly, with each additional comment along these lines, it becomes increasingly difficult to WP:AGF even that far. In any event, it is pretty clear at this point that Julian has come to the article with a pet theory wholly inconsistent with any reasonable read of the sourcing, and an agenda to push that POV into the article, and will not be be dissuaded by consensus to the contrary. To be honest, his conduct at that article raises serious questions about his basic capacity to contribute to this project where his personal views depart from the available sourcing, and I question if anything but a full indef will accomplish anything other than kicking the can down the road. On the other hand, as I said, I have observed more controlled contributions on articles that do not appear to trigger his political bugbears. But for a certainty, he needs to be removed from this particular page, like yesterday. My appreciation to the numerous editors on that talk page who have engaged with him with patience and good faith to this point over the last couple of months, but enough is enough with this drain on volunteer time, as far as I am concerned. SnowRise let's rap 15:13, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sigh, I'm saddened to see this ANI report about Julian in LA, but not at all surprised it's come to this. I first encountered this editor on the Eric Johnson (sculptor) article. They seemed like a good-faith COI editor, so I attempted to mentor them to follow the guidelines. Things went well. Subsequently I followed their contributions and noticed, unfortunately, that there was tendency to become combative in their contributions/interactions with others. Again I tried to communicate that WP is a community-driven collaborative project, and that civil conversations were the best way to participate and that sometimes it's best to just drop the stick rather than try to force an outcome of one's choice. Patience is a virtue here on WP, but they did not seem to understand that conversations and forming consensus can take weeks if not months sometimes....precisely because we are a community of volunteers. Unfortunately, out of what appeared to be frustration led them to vandalize an article, Moroccanoil rather than continue to work with others to achieve consensus and/or compromise. Eventually they were blocked by Star Mississippi for disruption. I think that the heart of the matter is that Julian has the makings of a productive editor, but needs to temper their expectations for things running on their time frame, and "getting their own way" is not always the desired outcome, and most importantly to understand that this is a community of predominately good faith editors. It's important that we all get along, even if we disagree on things. I hope this does not result in an indefinite block, because I do think he has the capacity to be a productive and civil contributor. However I do understand that a topic block might be productive until better ways of communication and interacting are learned and applied to the project. Netherzone (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Acknowledging @Netherzone's ping. Unfortunately I lack the on wiki time to assist here. What I blocked for was blatant vandalism but this seems a more complex issue. I would advise @Julian in LA to err on the side of caution with contentious topics such as these Star Mississippi 00:31, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- My posts cite the same reliable sources as the ones used by these editors. If they want to have a discussion on removing all racism from this article, I would be happy to participate.
- In an earlier post, I said I would be adding sections on discriminatory denial of alcohol to Indians and forced bathing, both citing modern academics. There was no response. Julian in LA (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Please see the following, and WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
- "this doesn't really make any sense nor the sources seem related"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=California_genocide&diff=1309251475&oldid=1308836516
- Julian in LA (talk) 18:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- You used Bauer's review of Lindsay's book, where he points out what he calls a
weakness
in the book (not including the perspectives and responses of Native Americans, instead focussing entirely on analysis from Anglo-American sources), as evidence of "critique of the genocide theory", where in the very same paragraph of Bauer's review he endorses the framing of the massacres as genocide. Herein, though, lies the book’s most significant weakness—there are no Indians here. This book is about nineteenth-century Americans and what they did to California Indians. Lindsay mentions California Indians, but only in the context of what others do to them, which is usually to kill them. There is little effort to explore how California Indians responded to genocide and how they shaped state and federal policies. Instead, California Indians appear as passive victims to Anglo-American aggression. In this way, one wonders how much the history of genocide differs from older Indian histories? Obviously the models are more theoretically sophisticated—using colonial theoryor genocide studies—and some examples of this work seriously consider American Indian actions. Yet the narratives replicate declensionist narratives of Indian defeat and dispossession, ending with the Modoc War, Ishi, Wounded Knee, or the imprisonment of Chief Joseph.
- So, removing the addition of source which is used in a way contrary to what the source actually says, is not a case of IDONTLIKEIT. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:00, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Are you saying that there is absolutely no academic opposition to the Genocide Theory from anyone, or that this is the wrong author to cite? Julian in LA (talk) 16:28, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- You used Bauer's review of Lindsay's book, where he points out what he calls a
- Julian's behavior regarding the California Genocide article is extremely reprehensible. Adding an entire section of WP:SYNTH material and poorly formatted sources to push a specific narrative is a clear violation of core policies. Comments such as
What part of this is genocide? It isn't genocide to allow buffalo to graze like cattle; are Indians different?
,is it genocide to force Indian children to cut their hair and bathe?
,Since the Evil Whites are still in California, I got the impression that it is ongoing
, and, as mentioned above,Whites did not become a master race by doing stupid things
serve no purpose other than to provoke and is fundamentally incompatible with a collaborative environment. I would go as far as to characterize this rethoric as falling under WP:NONAZIS. Even under the most generous interpretation, this is clear trolling that places a significant burden on editors who must engage in these bad-faith debates and clean up the resulting mess. - This disruptive behavior is not limited to a single article or topic. He has attempted to excise large sections of Burgerim, again relying on WP:SYNTH to remove and rewrite large chunks of content in an attempt to obscure the company's Israeli origins. Similar efforts were made at Moroccanoil though because that is a more active page, most of his edits were quickly reverted by other editors. This edit in particular is blatant vandalism. When called out by an admin, his response was unsatisfactory, showing no signs of remorse or a genuine desire to conform to community standards. While some have suggested a topic ban, Julian's behavior is not confined to a single, clearly defined subject area. Unless a topic ban were impossibly broad, it would fail to prevent further disruption. Therefore, I suggest nothing less than an WP:INDEF. A nearly three years old account should certainly know better. Paprikaiser (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Your issue seems to be with the use of the term "master race" instead of Lindsay's "Euro-Americans." Both imply Evil Whites, which might be the best term to use.
- Please look at the following, and keep in mind WP:IDONTLIKEIT:
- and this, also.
- Julian in LA (talk) 19:53, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reply. To the reviewing administrators: please include WP:ADVOCACY and WP:RGW to my list of concerns. Paprikaiser (talk) 20:14, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Block for the obviously racist "not human" comment mentioned early in this thread (equivalent to "Black people are apes"), and I'd also recommend a topic ban from Native Americans and Israel (including topics unrelated to ARBPIA). –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:52, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I was expecting someone to suggest a TBAN from e.g. race & slavery (broadly construed, OFC).
- Is Israel proposed because of the vandalisation of Morrocanoil? That seemed to be general disruption rather than the fact Israel was involved, or have I missed something?
- BTW I support indef, but I'd like to understand the TBAN a little more before deciding on that as well. Blue-Sonnet 04:55, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- It was actually the description of the Burgerim incident that led me to include Israel. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:58, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm leaning increasingly towards proposing an INDEF or CBAN myself, given the doubling down on defending the clearly unacceptable rhetoric of racial dehumanization, and the related trolling. Part of the problem is that I have a hard time imagining how we would tailor a TBAN sufficiently broad enough to cover all peoples and topics we would need to keep this user away from, based on previous conduct and the underlying NOTHERE motivations that seem to inspire all of it. SnowRise let's rap 05:38, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oh yep, I did legitimately miss that part, thanks so much for pointing it out!
- Support indef - unsure of scope for potential TBAN for the moment, for the reasons given by OP & SnowRise. I feel like it should include race, Israel is also an issue, genocide/slavery... It's a pretty wide range of problems we're seeing & I'm not sure where the TBAN should fall on that range.
- Blue-Sonnet 05:48, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support indef on account of wide-ranging disruption across a range of topics. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:48, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support indef. Yeah, I wanted to give this editor the benefit of the doubt that we could redirect them towards more productive work on less contentious topics, but 1) I was unaware of how many articles the disruptive behaviours had already reached and 2) their continued commitment to defending language about master white races and animal-like natives benefitting from being taught how to bath doesn't really leave any hope: either this is concerted trolling or the editor is profoundly oblivious to why these comments are offensive, disruptive and just generally unacceptable. And frankly, both options are disqualifying under WP:NOTHERE and WP:CIR. SnowRise let's rap 14:55, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support indef - I was initially unaware of the breadth of the disruption, and offensive trolling, however after reading through this report, I agree that an indefinite block is the appropriate preventative measure. Netherzone (talk) 15:05, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
Persistent addition of unsourced content by Sir Ivan Of Zandar
Sir Ivan Of Zandar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles about trains, continued after final warning and hasn't responded to warnings - Sir Ivan Of Zandar has also never edited a talk page. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Waxworker (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've partially blocked them indefinitely from mainspace and invited them to the discussion here. Hopefully they respond. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:18, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
User:Hammersoft and English tort law
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On 8 April User:Hammersoft revision-deleted two and a half months of additions by User:Lawbookwriter to the article English tort law (history), apparently on the basis that the contributions contained too many quotations that were too verbatim and too extensive of law from English appeal court judgments.
A discussion of Lawbookwriter's activities here at AN/I went stale and was archived without closure on 29 April. In the discussion a number of editors took the view that Lawbookwriter needed to do (much) more to establish significance and notability in satellite articles he had created on particular judgments, and needed to discuss more extensively a wider range of secondary sources about the judgments, beyond just the primary text. Several editors, including User:Tom Morris, User:Snow_Rise, and User:Sasquatch offered to help Lawbookwriter on this. Discussions on his contributions to English tort law were more limited, perhaps because Hammersoft was unwilling to restore visibility of the old versions to facilitate discussions, so many editors could not see them.
In relation to the quotations of the UK court judgments themselves, it emerged that while it might be editorially preferable to streamline them, they are not violations of US copyright law -- which according to WP:NUSC is the ultimate prevailing standard here. ("While Wikipedia prefers content that is free anywhere in the world, it accepts content that is free in the United States even if it may be under copyright in some other countries"). As noted by {{PD-laws}} under US law the material is free under the Government edicts doctrine as "an edict of a government, local or foreign", which includes "judicial decisions" (Compendium of U.S. Copyright Office Practices page 37, § 313.6(C)(2)).
User:Lawbookwriter now wants to get back to work, and wants to be able to access again what he wrote at English tort law, the core article of his editing project. (Which is also necessary if people are to able to collaborate with him on it).
However User:Hammersoft is still not prepared to make the old revision visible (in line with his position in previous exchanges). He is also not prepared to discuss the issue with me on his talk page.
It seems to me that, however well-intentioned this may have begun, this is behaviour that has now become obstructive. It is not helping editor collaboration or the building of the encyclopedia. And, frankly, it is not behaviour that is becoming of an admin. With regret therefore I feel there is no alternative but to bring the issue back here. -- Jheald (talk) 19:08, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Copyvio is not something we generally mess around with. Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm nowhere near as experienced as either of you, but I'd imagine that courts wouldn't look too kindly on Wikipedia knowingly placing text back on the site after it's clear that it may have violated copyright law? That would go past plausible deniability and right into "we knew but did it anyway" territory. Blue-Sonnet 19:19, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 and Blue-Sonnet: See my third paragraph. There is no copyvio. Jheald (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hammersoft offered to email it instead of putting it live on the website, surely that's a fair compromise considering the possible risk?
- I know you don't feel there is one, but Hammersoft would be taking the responsibility as a Wikipedia administrator for any possible fallout, not you. I really don't think it's fair to ask them to take that responsibility if there's even the slightest, tiniest chance of breaking copyright law. Blue-Sonnet 19:34, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 and Blue-Sonnet: See my third paragraph. There is no copyvio. Jheald (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm not a lawyer and won't speak to that element. What I will say is that most of us are not lawyers is all the more reason for us to be especially careful regarding potential copyright violations and certainly not to restore them after revision deletion. Simonm223 (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm nowhere near as experienced as either of you, but I'd imagine that courts wouldn't look too kindly on Wikipedia knowingly placing text back on the site after it's clear that it may have violated copyright law? That would go past plausible deniability and right into "we knew but did it anyway" territory. Blue-Sonnet 19:19, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- At https://www.bailii.org/bailii/copyright.html, it says that: "
Crown copyright protected material (other than the Royal Arms and departmental or agency logos) may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium provided it is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context
" (emphasis mine). This sounds like the Crown copyright here is not compatible with CC-BY-SA, since it puts restrictions on the ability to re-use or modify the material. Obviously, reproducing quotes accurately and not using them to mislead should be our goal, but my understanding is that, if those are baked into the license terms themselves, then it's not CC-BY-SA. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:26, 6 May 2026 (UTC)- @Writ Keeper: (1) Under U.S. law it's PD. That's what {{PD-laws}} says, and per WP:NUSC that's what matters.
- (2) Even in the UK, most of the material is available OGL , which is compatible with CC-BY. At most, even outwith U.S. law, all Lawbookwriter has overlooked is to put in UK Government attributions -- that's fixable, not a reason to rev-del two months work, and make wiki collaboration on it impossible.
- We've been through all this. Jheald (talk) 19:54, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Also (3) Even beyond the U.S. law and the U.K. licensing, the taking may well have been U.K. fair dealing, because to represent the law accurately you need to represent it and the context that led to it with precision, which may require extensive quotation, with considerable latitude -- something that merely relying on text similarity from a tool like Earwig does not take into account. Jheald (talk) 20:44, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I can't work out if this is a complaint about Hammersoft not engaging with this editor or an insistence that the revdel was wrong. Since none of us are lawyers (well maybe some of us are) and the precautionary principle applies I'd say it was right to remove the material without a clear educated consensus to keep it that does not appear to exist.Spartaz Humbug! 19:34, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) In the event that it is more about Hammersoft's conduct than the copyright question, I would agree that Hammersoft offering to email the deleted contents is a reasonable response. I don't think there's anything actionable here. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:37, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It feels like it's almost a backdoor way to get to back on the site - why on earth does it have to be live on Wikipedia if they just need it to revise and make another version?
- Lawbookwriter asked "
...or if you still have concerns about the content, could you copy me a version of what you deleted so that I can run through Earwig and remove anything objectionable that was being highlighted by it?
" and Hammersoft agreed to consider email. - Hammersoft previously asked Jheald to leave them alone , instead of honouring this reasonable request they jump into this discussion on Hammersoft's Talk page - unprompted - to demand that the article is reinstated.
- I'm sorry but that's not on, Hammersoft explicitly asked Jheald to leave them alone and rightfully removed their post and reiterated the same request. Now we have an ANI report, seemingly because Hammersoft doesn't want to talk to Jheald about this any more? Blue-Sonnet 19:53, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Because this is a wiki, and wikis are collaborative. We have knowledgeable law editors, willing to work with Lawbookeditor chunk by chunk to see what should go back into the article. That workflow is made far harder than it needs to be if the previous edits are not available on wiki.
- Secondly, because if Hammersoft is going to remove material that is legal, then what standards is Lawbookeditor supposed to work to?
- And to your final point, because when you're an admin you don't get to say "La, la, la. I can't hear you." If you think that's an appropriate way to behave, you should drop the mop. As an admin if you break it, you own it. If someone puts to you that your actions may have been based on a misunderstanding or an over-reaction, and back that up with policy and law, you take that seriously and engage with it -- or at the very least, delegate it to a colleague and make sure they deal with it. You can't just wash your hands of it. Jheald (talk) 20:11, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- They didn't wash their hands of it. They asked you to stop interacting with them, not Lawbookwriter. You should honor that request. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:15, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you're an admin and somebody tells you you've messed up, that's not a request you get to make. Jheald (talk) 20:21, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
If you're an admin and somebody tells you you've messed up, that's not a request you get to make.
- All of us are volunteers @Jheald. Admins are required to be accountable for their actions, which @Hammersoft has more than done. We are not required to perform to the standards of a 3rd part. You're closer to an IBan than you are helping this issue. Please leave it between Hammersoft and Law. Star Mississippi 00:18, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Jheald if you ever need an admin going forward you can just use
{{Admin help}}on your talk page and someone will respond to you and your request. Dr vulpes (Talk) 02:28, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you're an admin and somebody tells you you've messed up, that's not a request you get to make. Jheald (talk) 20:21, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:USERTALK:
If an editor asks you not to edit their user pages, such requests should, within reason, be respected. ...repeatedly posting on a user's page without good reason after being asked not to, may be seen as harassment or a similar kind of disruptive behavior. When in doubt, ask for help from another experienced editor or uninvolved administrator.
This was a conversation between two editors, one asking the other for some text to work on. You interjected yourself in that discussion, despite knowing that Hammersoft asked you to leave them alone. There were plenty of other things you could do, such as bring the issue back to ANI, speak to a different admin etc. Instead, you chose to post on a Talk page when the person concerned had asked you politely to leave them alone. Blue-Sonnet 21:37, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- They didn't wash their hands of it. They asked you to stop interacting with them, not Lawbookwriter. You should honor that request. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:15, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) In the event that it is more about Hammersoft's conduct than the copyright question, I would agree that Hammersoft offering to email the deleted contents is a reasonable response. I don't think there's anything actionable here. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:37, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
Taking my lawyer hat off for a moment and looking past the potential copyvio for now, what is the point of quoting from case law extensively? If used to try and support a point being made, isn't that WP:OR/WP:SYNTH territory? Why not reference law text books instead? GiantSnowman 20:50, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: I can't see the old revisions of English tort law, so I can't see just how Lawbookwriter was using the material, and whether they were getting too deeply into unnecessary specifics of particular cases. (This is a big part of why I object to the rev-dels -- because they prevent the rest of us getting our eyeballs on it). Yes, maybe it was too many details that might obscure the main line of the article, in ways that don't align well with secondary sources. It's possible. But especially in the spin-out articles on individual cases, if a case has established a new test, then it may well be the best approach to quote the test exactly (and that may well be what secondary sources do), even if that leads to quite a high text similarity. And even in setting out the facts, secondary sources often do tend to cleave fairly closely to many phrases of the original judgment, to avoid any inaccuracy in representing it. Yes, of course articles should be properly grounded in secondary sources. But even then we should not be surprised if they ring the bell for "close paraphrasing" really quite often. Jheald (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Even WP:NUSC says it it "prefers" to honour non-US copyrights. This seems to me to be particularly important for text rather than images, because images are tagged and can be filtered out for downstream use, whereas we have no equivalent tagging for the text of articles. I don't think the necessity of relying upon WP:NUSC for an acceptable article to be written has been demonstrated, and also on a practical level, does it not seem a bit daft to have an English law article that English editors aren't able to edit? Morwen (talk) 21:00, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- What is preventing English editors from editing an English law article? GiantSnowman 21:02, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- English editors, personally, have to obey English copyright laws, even if the site is hosted in the US. Morwen (talk) 21:10, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- that first "English" meaning "editors physically situated in England", to be clear. Morwen (talk) 21:12, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- (this isn't an opinion that the previous use was or wasn't within the licence granted by the UK government by the way. I should have phrased it as "would it not seem" and "aren't able" as "would not be able") Morwen (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- (ec) @Morwen: As noted above, between the OGL and fair dealing, there should be no practical difficulty for English editors, even outwith U.S. law. Nobody out there is wanting to restrict the quotation of judgments. The technical discussion between some of the judges vs the MoJ on whether the judgments should not be Crown Copyright for the Government to license, was based on a view that it should not be for the Government to restrict or control access to case law, even under the OGL, and hence the quibble they worked up as to whether they were or were not technically carrying out duties as "officers of the crown" was that judgments should be even less restricted. It's not a bad thing to try to stay within fair dealing and OGL where we can; but per WP:NUSC it's not a disaster if we don't, and definitely not grounds for rev-dels. Jheald (talk) 21:40, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- (this isn't an opinion that the previous use was or wasn't within the licence granted by the UK government by the way. I should have phrased it as "would it not seem" and "aren't able" as "would not be able") Morwen (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- that first "English" meaning "editors physically situated in England", to be clear. Morwen (talk) 21:12, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- English editors, personally, have to obey English copyright laws, even if the site is hosted in the US. Morwen (talk) 21:10, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- What is preventing English editors from editing an English law article? GiantSnowman 21:02, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Has no one considered checking the Wayback Machine? All captures, most recent being 22 March 2026. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:30, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I don't think Jheald is interested in Lawbookwriter having the text to work on, they just want it back on Wikipedia full stop. I think Lawbookwriter's request is incidental and this just prompted Jheald to re-raise the previous discussion. It's a red herring, essentially. Blue-Sonnet 21:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- While I am sympathetic to those who dislike copyright, Wikipedia has to comply with it, so protecting the project in such manners is just how we have to work. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Is this even a matter for ANI anymore? If it's a debate about whether a specific guideline or policy should be defined/expanded, wouldn't that be the Village pump or similar? Blue-Sonnet 22:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet and Cdjp1: The Wayback Machine snapshot is interesting, but it only covers about the first half of Lawbookwriter's contributions. And without a wiki-diff it's hard to see what those contributions were.
- User:Blue-Sonnet is right, I do think it would be better if the content was back visible again on Wikipedia full stop (though probably not as the most current edit), because I think that would best allow us to move forward collaboratively, and have discussion as to what is most appropriate, what is too much detail and best moved elsewhere per WP:SUMMARY, what needs better motivation from secondary sources, what could be written better, etc, etc, etc. All this is far most easily done when the text is there in the history to discuss.
- The bottom line is that per WP:NUSC and {{PD-laws}} there is no copyvio here, so there should be no rev-dels. Hammersoft has made clear he is not prepared to restore it (nor to discuss it), so that leaves AN/I. Jheald (talk) 22:44, 6 May 2026 (UTC) -- "bring the issue back to ANI", as Blue Sonnet advises (diff). -- Jheald (talk) 22:57, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- And, for the record, I'm not anti-copyright (it may last too long, but it serves a purpose). But it's not "protecting the project" to ignore our own guidelines, nor to rev-del far beyond what's needed or useful, nor to refuse to make any defence or discussion of it. Jheald (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Apologies as I'm not sure where I said the content should be added back into Wikipedia - can you let me know where I wrote that as it might be a typo? Blue-Sonnet 23:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet: "[t]hey [Jheald] they just want it [the text] back on Wikipedia full stop." Above, at 21:46. HTH, Jheald (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Whoops, I misread your post, I was doing two things at once - sorry! Blue-Sonnet 23:17, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet: "[t]hey [Jheald] they just want it [the text] back on Wikipedia full stop." Above, at 21:46. HTH, Jheald (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Is this even a matter for ANI anymore? If it's a debate about whether a specific guideline or policy should be defined/expanded, wouldn't that be the Village pump or similar? Blue-Sonnet 22:13, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- While I am sympathetic to those who dislike copyright, Wikipedia has to comply with it, so protecting the project in such manners is just how we have to work. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I don't think Jheald is interested in Lawbookwriter having the text to work on, they just want it back on Wikipedia full stop. I think Lawbookwriter's request is incidental and this just prompted Jheald to re-raise the previous discussion. It's a red herring, essentially. Blue-Sonnet 21:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ignoring any possible copyvio issues, writing content, particularly pull quotes, from judicial decisions should be avoid and instead using what reliable sources, knowledgible in legal matters, opt to pull as quotes. As a general rule wp editors arent legal experts (even if you are in real life) and we should not express expertise on interpreting legal matters. Its far better to see how sources cover it and use material quotes cited that way. Masem (t) 21:38, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that there's an entire sister project where free-use copies of this sort of thing can be posted. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:30, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger: If you look at Lawbookwriter's articles or the archive.org snapshot of English Tort Law, Lawbookwriter isn't interested in transcribing cases that are already easily available at BAILII. He's trying to write short encyclopedic articles on them (and encyclopedic summary articles), bringing out the relevant principles, not reproducing the entirety of 200 paragraph judgments that are already available elsewhere. Jheald (talk) 22:51, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that there's an entire sister project where free-use copies of this sort of thing can be posted. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:30, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment - Think it's important to note we've had a long discussion about this at Copyright policy page and basically it's a minefield due to how Crown Copyright is treated variously across different commonwealth realms, with England and Wales being a jurisdiction where not only is it under copyright but there are multiple different licencing regimes with conflicting requirements depending on which authority published the Crown Copyright material. So given we err on the side of caution I'd argue that Hammersoft was and continues to be correct in their assessment given Wikipedia, while legally following US law, does choose to recognise voluntarily the copyright laws of the originating nation the source is from. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:51, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Agree - those claiming any definite answer on the copyright issue are mischaracterising the debate both on Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#Copying text from BAILII (which is still ongoing) and the previous ANI thread, as no consensus has been found. Orange sticker (talk) 07:25, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
"Wikipedia, while legally following US law, does choose to recognise voluntarily the copyright laws of the originating nation the source is from."
- Respectfully, that's just not true: See Wikipedia:Non-US copyrights:
"While Wikipedia prefers content that is free anywhere in the world, it accepts content that is free in the United States even if it may be under copyright in some other countries."
And, mind you, I'm not saying that we never want to weight the free availability in content in determining how much we want to borrow from a source that falls under copyright according to another's countries laws. But policy and longstanding community consensus is that its only U.S. law that we are obligated to follow, and that when we choose not to follow every countries idiosyncratic law (which is the only realistic option) it is not considered a copyvio and is permitted. SnowRise let's rap 08:45, 7 May 2026 (UTC)- @Snow Rise it is true actually. You’re linking a guidelines page, while the Copyright Policy page states “The Wikimedia Foundation is based in the United States and accordingly governed by United States copyright law. Regardless, according to Jimbo Wales, the co-founder of Wikipedia, Wikipedia contributors should respect the copyright law of other nations, even if these do not have official copyright relations with the United States.“
- So the policy page takes a different line in that we should follow the copyright laws of a known source’s origin country. Rambling Rambler (talk) 11:33, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but that is the opinion of just one community member. An imminently prominent community member, to be sure, but that clearly has precisely the consensus authority of an WP:ESSAY. Meanwhile our actual guideline precisely on point for this issue says, unambigously, that we would love it if we could comport with every individual country's body of IP law, but clearly that is not realistic, so we very much can (and do) ignore it. Not even every case, but frequently, across the project, and almost certainly daily.Again, if someone wants to argue that we weigh the availability of the work as factor in various WP:ONUS tests: sure, I'll buy that. But the PAGs and longstanding community practice are pretty clear: we are not obligated to follow to non-U.S. copyright standards. SnowRise let's rap 11:53, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's literally part of the policy.
- I find it very strange that you're trying to argue a policy page now has no "consensus authority". Rambling Rambler (talk) 12:08, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- It literally says "According to Jimbo Wales". Precisely one community member. As in, quite exactly the only number of persons that can, by definition, not qualify as any consensus. SnowRise let's rap 12:15, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- That simply identifies who the idea originated with. It being included as part of policy means it by definition has consensus authority as our working standard (how else would it have become policy).
- Every aspect of our policies and guidelines for that matter started with it being the written views of one person after all. Rambling Rambler (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but that is a wild read to me. We do not codify community consensus into our policy in that way. That clearly notes one editor's perspective on one aspect of the test. It cannot override more specific guidance adopted by the community at large into the relevant PAGs. I mean, you are welcome to try to push this position, but I don't see the community endorsing that leap in interpretation. SnowRise let's rap 12:28, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Policy always overrides guidelines. Now unless you can show that section of policy was inappropriately added all you're doing is arguing that because they reference someone by name it's merely an "essay" which to me is the wild take here.
- Therefore, until it's not policy anymore, we go by what it says and it says to respect other nations copyright laws. Rambling Rambler (talk) 12:32, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I can't imagine a more self-evident indication of non-consensus than a statement expressly and without ambiguity saying that it is the position of one person. We're clearly going around in circles here, so this is my last contribution to this back-and-forth, but again, I cannot imagine the community endorsing that reading and it is absolutely contrary to how we have treated copyright on this project for decades. SnowRise let's rap 12:53, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but that is a wild read to me. We do not codify community consensus into our policy in that way. That clearly notes one editor's perspective on one aspect of the test. It cannot override more specific guidance adopted by the community at large into the relevant PAGs. I mean, you are welcome to try to push this position, but I don't see the community endorsing that leap in interpretation. SnowRise let's rap 12:28, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- It literally says "According to Jimbo Wales". Precisely one community member. As in, quite exactly the only number of persons that can, by definition, not qualify as any consensus. SnowRise let's rap 12:15, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but that is the opinion of just one community member. An imminently prominent community member, to be sure, but that clearly has precisely the consensus authority of an WP:ESSAY. Meanwhile our actual guideline precisely on point for this issue says, unambigously, that we would love it if we could comport with every individual country's body of IP law, but clearly that is not realistic, so we very much can (and do) ignore it. Not even every case, but frequently, across the project, and almost certainly daily.Again, if someone wants to argue that we weigh the availability of the work as factor in various WP:ONUS tests: sure, I'll buy that. But the PAGs and longstanding community practice are pretty clear: we are not obligated to follow to non-U.S. copyright standards. SnowRise let's rap 11:53, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Agree - those claiming any definite answer on the copyright issue are mischaracterising the debate both on Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#Copying text from BAILII (which is still ongoing) and the previous ANI thread, as no consensus has been found. Orange sticker (talk) 07:25, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, some people here are lawyers or lawyers in the UK. That's great and all, but they're not advocates for the WMF, and in a legally unsure situation, until/unless the WMF gives an explicit thumbs up, then it shouldn't be here. And I'm saying that as someone who wouldn't object to the WMF gathering on an ice floe and being floated out to sea. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:25, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Per my comment in that discussion, I agree that we should err on the side of caution in copyright matters. Narky Blert (talk) 04:30, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
With respect to me being accountable: I am quite happy to be responsive to any concerns people may have with actions I've taken with admin privileges, per WP:ADMINACCT. When this issue first arose and I took action, I remained engaged in the now archived thread, posting more than a dozen times on that thread. I also tracked and posted to the thread at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights. I also responded to every post Lawbookwriter made to my talk page at the thread there. When Lawbookwriter posted anew to my talk page in a new thread, I also promptly responded there. Once they enabled email, I emailed them what was requested. At every step of the way I have engaged on the issue. I have not, as Jheald has tried to claim, "refuse[d] to make any defence or discussion of it"
. This is utterly false. Further, Jheald's attributing my behavior to "La, la, la. I can't hear you."
is frankly an insult and provably false.
With respect to the license nature of this material: As I've said before, we take copyright seriously here. If it is in doubt, we can't allow material to stand. See also Wikipedia:Precautionary principle. I have not and do not object to some other administrator unrevdel'ing the material, as I noted here. User:Rambling Rambler noted above that the copyright status of this material is a minefield, with which I agree. User:Blue-Sonnet correctly noted in this post that I would take responsibility for posting the content if I did so. I'm not prepared to do that because I remain unconvinced that the material can comply with our copyright requirements for free licensing. That doesn't stop another administrator from taking that responsibility. Seven other administrators have commented on this thread. If any of them wishes to unrevdel the page, they are welcome to do so.
With respect to my refusal to interact with Jheald: On 10 April 2026, I said to Jheald; "given our prior interactions being rather intensely negative, I respectfully decline to interact with you."
. Jheald was aware of this, and requested someone edit my talk page on their behalf . This clearly shows that Jheald understands that their posting to my talk page is unwanted. Nevertheless, they posted to my talk page yesterday with this, attempting to debate the issues at hand again. I removed their comment, placed small text with a ping asking them to remain off my user talk page . I would like to note that in these posts asking Jheald to not interact with me, I did not attempt to stir a long cold pot and place blame on Jheald for the nature of our past interactions. I simply asked them not to interact with me. Jheald refused to comply, and posted to my talk page yet again. I understand when a person posts on this board about someone they are required to inform that person, but the way this is usually handled is to ask someone on the thread to do so on their behalf. I know, that's not codified in guideline or policy. But I've seen it before and think it good practice. I really do not wish to stir a long cold pot. I have no comment on Jheald's actions except to say that for my own part it informs me I have made the correct decision on this. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:34, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
Disentangling the issues
Forgive the early subsection all, but I think its important that some basic verities get examined here before this situation spirals out into wild speculation and unintentional misrepresentations. The community already expended a fairly stupefying amount of effort in reaching consensus on these issues in the previous ANI thread and the Wikipedia talk:Copyrights discussion, and lot of that was the result of editors with legal background and/or experience with our copyright policies having to separate the wheat from chafe, as it were, with regard to misapprehensions about copyright law and established community consensus about how we conform with it. I'm already seeing hints of things going that way again, so providing a basic overview of the relevant external law and this project's internal policies may save us another two weeks and 250,000 bytes worth of repeating that whole process.
So, as a preliminary matter, I think we need to set aside the idea that Hammersoft did anything wrong here. With greatest respect to Jheald, who was instrumental to helping sort these matters out in the previous thread, I think it was a big mistake to place Hammersofts's name in the title of this thread. Yes, Hammersoft did revdel the content in question, and yes, I do believe their rationale in doing so has since been demonstrated to be in-apt (if also an easy mistake to make) under policy. But the failure to reverse that administrative action after the result of the previous ANI discussion is a failure of the community that arises out of systemic issues with how this space operates, and is not an issue which Hammersoft can be held responsible for fixing. Hammersoft is a WP:VOLUNTEER like the rest of us, and is not beholden to taking any action: even one reversing a mistake made in complete good faith. We cannot create standards that require admins to go against what they perceive their responsibilities to be in a given situation, even if we find their reasoning flawed. There are a lot of admins who can take that action (which, as I recall, Hammer has expressly said they will not take exception to or wheel war over), and given Hammer's completely reasonable stance, we need to be convincing someone else to implement the consensus.
Now, on to the substantive issues. And I want to be as clear about this as possible: There is no noteworthy WP:COPYVIO issue with quoting the text of UK court rulings, opinions, judgments, limited findings, letters of decision, or other jurisprudence issued by British courts. And this isn't even an especially difficult or close call.
On this project, and for very good cause, we tend to inoculate our users early on to apply the precautionary principle when it comes to adhering to our copyright policies. While this undoubtedly prevents a lot more problems than it causes, one of the occasionally more problematic side effects is that, not unlike what happens with overreactive T-cells or antibodies in an auto-immune condition, sometimes well-intentioned users mistake non-issues for applicable targets of copyviolation policies. Meaning no disrespect to anyone, it's pretty clear to me from my background and as an editor with understanding of our relevant longterm policies, that this is what has driven a lot of the issues since the topic came up some weeks back.
Because there are actually a number of overlapping reasons why the content of the judgments in question is free to use. And though, as Jheald and others note above, there are any number of other editorial considerations militating for using WP:SUMMARYSTYLE over protracted quotation in particular instances, as an a priori matter, copyright concerns are not among them. This is due to the following:
- 1) Even in the UK itself, there is no express legislative mandate nor finding by any of the nation's high courts, nor any other positive legal standard, that the judgments of the nation's courts fall under Crown copyright. This consideration is actually less determinative of how we are meant to be operating under policy than the next point, but this issue seems to be the one causing the most confusion and consternation among our lay editors, so I'm going to start here by reassuring our editors without legal expertise and/or outside the UK, that the position that UK court opinions are dispositively under crown copyright is not endorsed anywhere in black letter law, but rather is merely a legal theory, and one which is increasingly regarded in a doubtful light, and which Britain's high courts and Crown officials (including most relevantly, those of the Ministry of Justice) have expressed is probably incorrect and could not be implemented because of various constitutional and public interest considerations.
- 2) Even if there was an affirmative holding placing UK judgments under Crown copyright for the purposes of UK copyright law, this project operates under the auspices of U.S. law, and U.S. copyright law is unambigous that the official decrees of any government of any nation, inlcuding the courts of those nations, are across the board free of copyright. In the U.S., this is known as the government edicts doctrine, and though originally a principle of common law, it was adopted into black letter in the 1909 version of the Copyright Act. Although originally applicable to only the decrees of the U.S. federal government, it has since been expanded to include the edicts of all nations at all level of government. (See e.g. Compendium (Third), U.S. Copyright Office Practices § 313.6(C)(2), stating, inter alia,
"The U.S. Copyright Office will not register a government edict that has been issued by any federal, state, local, or territorial government, including legislative enactments, judicial decisions, administrative rulings, public ordinances, or similar types of official legal materials. Likewise, the Office will not register a government edict issued by any foreign government or any translation prepared by a government employee acting within the course of his or her official duties."
(emphasis added). Now, having watched this discussion play out one and half times already, I anticipate some residual hand-wringing that maybe we should adhere to the copyright of a second nation just for the sake of it. But bluntly, I can tell you that there is no way for an editorial enterprise, let alone this particular project of ours at its incomparable scale and complexity, to attempt to adhere to the copyright and IP practices of every nation. And I see no reason why we would privilege UK law in this respect over that of all other non-U.S. bodies. By longstanding and foundational community consensus, we have decided to conform to the law of the nation in which the WMF, as custodian of Wikipedia's legal interests, is situated. If others feel that they have principled reasons why we should adjust our policies and best practices to try to thread the needle between two or more bodies of national law, they are free to make a WP:PROPOSAL. But if so: WP:VPP is thataway. ANI is not for promulgating new rules but for applying the ones we currently have.
- 3) Even if UK law placed court decisions under Crown copyright, and even if U.S. law enforced Crown copyright in such decisions, these decisions are all available under OGL licensing. Finally, even if these decisions were covered under copyright, they have also been included in databases for which all content is expressly released under licenses which permit free and open distribution and discussion of their full texts. Frankly, per the above, I don't think we even need to attribute these decisions, but let's go ahead and use the good ol' precautionary principle and make that our standard approach. This alone would comply with both UK and U.S. copyright law and our relevant policies to eliminate copyvio concerns.
Now, beyond all of that, I would argue there is even a fourth layer of consideration that further eliminates concerns under our non-free content policies, but I'm not going to draw this megapost out any further to get into that, as I think the above considerations are well beyond sufficient to resolve any concerns, and bringing the NFC policy into this can only serve as a distraction when stronger and clearer principles already apply here.
So, yes, is any of the above the end of the story for whether a particular court decision should be quoted at length in a particular article? Not hardly. But if the cited reason for the content being rev-deled at English tort law is copyvio concerns, then those revdels should be reversed to allow the content to be reviewed by experienced editors and to allow Lawbookswriter to continue to make adjustments, albeit ideally with supervision of more experienced editors at first. So, I apologize to everyone for the wall of text, but I hope this helps in keeping discussion here focused on any remaining open issues, and short-circuits the entire previous thread essentially repeating itself as to points of our copyright policy that were already resolved here and at the copyright policy talk. SnowRise let's rap 04:03, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I note that I have ended up aping some of Hammersoft's own language regarding the issues here. I just want to say that is purely accidental: Hammersoft posted their response while I was composing the above. Any opinions I expressed above that converge with theirs are a product of similar thinking, not an attempt to boost their perspective. SnowRise let's rap 04:28, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- This "
And I want to be as clear about this as possible: There is no noteworthy WP:COPYVIO issue with quoting the text of UK court rulings, opinions, judgments, limited findings, letters of decision, or other jurisprudence issued by British courts. And this isn't even an especially difficult or close call
" is a mischaracterisation of the discussion at WP:COPYRIGHTS where the nearest thing to consensus has been wide agreement with the contribution from @Sasquatch: Wikipedia_talk:Copyrights#Thoughts_from_Sasquatch, which shows that the issue of attribution is vital and not straightforward (for instance, using BAILII as a reference would not meet licensing requirements). Orange sticker (talk) 07:44, 7 May 2026 (UTC)- I believe Sasquatch's comments there and in the previous discussion here leave very little doubt that that they agree with me on the substantial majority of the points I have detailed above. But your having pinged them, I'm happy to let them speak for themselves. However, speaking to the BAILII issue, I would be surprised if they disagreed with me when I say A) the issue is not so much that the BAILII use terms actually change the realities about the applicability of crown copyright, so much that their public-facing disclaimers include language that muddies the waters, and makes them a suboptimal source for content, but also B) we literally don't need to use BAILII at all, whatsoever. We'll simply use the public resources that release the cases under typical OGL licences without intermingled commercial interests. SnowRise let's rap 08:17, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- To be clear I really don't want to re-litigate (pun intended) the copyright issue yet again on this board and would urge editors to use Wikipedia talk:Copyrights for that, but the point I'm making is simply that this issue has not reached a tidy conclusion that Hammersoft is simply refusing to abide by, as could be inferred by some of the posts in this thread. It is still a very grey area. Orange sticker (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry to butt in, I thought pretty much everyone agreed that Hammersoft was entitled to make that decision, considering the ongoing debate and lack of clarity at the time? Hammersoft wasn't comfortable with reinstating it fully and invited them to disk to another admin for their opinion.
- All that happened behaviourally was an editor asked for revdel'd text and got it emailed, then someone who they'd asked to leave them alone posted on their Talk page. I don't see what they've done wrong? Blue-Sonnet 08:42, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Everyone except the OP I suppose? I guess I'm not sure what the aim of this intervention by SnowRise is, as it certainly doesn't disentangle the issue at all, only muddy it. Orange sticker (talk) 08:49, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I suspect that I misunderstood your post (one of those days, I guess!) - it looked a little like you thought there was still a question over whether Hammersoft made the right decision at the time, which I guess we're all agreed on, barring one! Blue-Sonnet 08:53, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yes to be clear - since the Revdel there has been no subsequent agreement or revelation that it was unwarranted and must be restored. Orange sticker (talk) 09:12, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I believe I made my objectives pretty clear: a sumarization of existing policy, the relevant law, and the conclusions of the previous two discussions, in an effort to prevent having to spend another couple of weeks of sorting out well-intentioned but largely misinformed concerns, as happened last time. And to be frank, I've yet to see you point to any particular observation I've made as to policy or the law that is factually incorrect, so I'm not sure what waters I am supposed to have muddied. Clearly we disagree about the ultimate results of the previous discussions, which, fair enough: opinions on the threshold for consensus can vary. But I'm not wrong to try to get out ahead of another twenty rounds of unintended but time-wasting confusion over the actual law and actual policy. But this burst of posts today will probably be the extent to which I can contribute on this topic this week, so it's in the hands of yourself and others from here. SnowRise let's rap 09:18, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I suspect that I misunderstood your post (one of those days, I guess!) - it looked a little like you thought there was still a question over whether Hammersoft made the right decision at the time, which I guess we're all agreed on, barring one! Blue-Sonnet 08:53, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Everyone except the OP I suppose? I guess I'm not sure what the aim of this intervention by SnowRise is, as it certainly doesn't disentangle the issue at all, only muddy it. Orange sticker (talk) 08:49, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Personally, I think the copyright concerns have so many different solutions, that the issue of the ultimate availability of the content of decisions is much more black and white to my eye, but I appreciate the apprehension the spectre of legal issues can raise for some editors. In any event, I am in complete agreement with you that there is no reason to question Hammersoft's conduct in any of this: they made a call--a call that many other admins would have made in their place, and about which reasonable minds may differ. They have no obligation to reverse their use of their administrative discretion, and in fact would be using questionable Wikipedia ethics if they did, not being convinced that it was the wrong decision. Further, there is WP:NORUSH to fix this problem, though I do hope we do not lose a useful new editor over it. And I agree that the copyrights talk page is probably the best location for ongoing discussion about the licenses. As to the difficulty in getting anyone to close this discussion with a decision on whether to restore the content at English tort law, perhaps it is time to make a formal closure request at AN, providing the three discussions for review. Alternatively, if HS has already emailed the content to LBW, perhaps they could start adding some of the content they are confident does not offend copyright back in, with a small group of volunteers monitoring and discussing on the article talk page. I will say that despite the fact that LBW got a bit of a bum wrap over this situation, there were times in the previous discussion where I thought they were a little to laisez-faire about the concerns raised, so perhaps this piecemeal solution would be better than just reinstating the content one massive action anyway. SnowRise let's rap 09:06, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- To be clear I really don't want to re-litigate (pun intended) the copyright issue yet again on this board and would urge editors to use Wikipedia talk:Copyrights for that, but the point I'm making is simply that this issue has not reached a tidy conclusion that Hammersoft is simply refusing to abide by, as could be inferred by some of the posts in this thread. It is still a very grey area. Orange sticker (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I believe Sasquatch's comments there and in the previous discussion here leave very little doubt that that they agree with me on the substantial majority of the points I have detailed above. But your having pinged them, I'm happy to let them speak for themselves. However, speaking to the BAILII issue, I would be surprised if they disagreed with me when I say A) the issue is not so much that the BAILII use terms actually change the realities about the applicability of crown copyright, so much that their public-facing disclaimers include language that muddies the waters, and makes them a suboptimal source for content, but also B) we literally don't need to use BAILII at all, whatsoever. We'll simply use the public resources that release the cases under typical OGL licences without intermingled commercial interests. SnowRise let's rap 08:17, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
Just an observation that the users advocating to have the revdel removed appear to be non admins who would therefore lack the potential personal liability for restoring the material that the admin actually undertaking the action would assume. I'm not sure what that means but it clearly means something. Spartaz Humbug! 07:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I mean, I would certainly expect it could have some influence on why no admin has made the leap to act on the result of the previous discussions, but it could only be pure speculation to guess at how much. The reality of the situation is that no one has ever been litigated against, criminally charged, or threatened with such for distribution of any UK court decisions in 300 years of modern copyright law going back to the Statute of Anne. It didn't even happen back in the era when the Crown had more administrative jurisdiction over the courts, nevermind in the contemporary era, when the courts have hinted in dicta they would almost certainly strike down such a suit under principles of open justice and the MoJ, as the ultimate administrator of crown copyright, has spent decades trying to make access to these documents free and open--hence the very existence of OGL. In reality, there is no actual liability to any administrator: certainly far less than that to an admin who reverses a more typical deletion for a copyright claim made regarding content owned by a more conventional and undisputed rights holder, and admins do that with some regularity. But you're probably right: whatever the realities of the situation are, the misapprehensions about the issues, and the degree of attention the article has gotten has probably made this feel like a hot potato that no admin is leaping out of their seat to snatch, even if they were convinced by the conclusions reached in the prior discussions. That's understandable, but a problem. SnowRise let's rap 08:09, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Even assuming that I was minded to do this, this is hardly the most compelling case bearing in mind it's bought to us with unclean hands and without any consensus on where the actual policy. That's not a great sell. People round here need to be more conscious of how their approach discourages others from engaging Spartaz Humbug! 15:52, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
Why is this here at all, how is it not just a duplicate of the discussion at WT:Copyrights? The issue at question is what is the copyright status of the material, that's not a user behaviour question or an emergency issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:18, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I believe the OP's position is that there was some consensus by the end of previous discussions that the content did not qualify for deletion on copyvio grounds. I think there is some legitimate basis for that conclusion. However, the OP also believes they should have been allowed to participate in the ongoing discussion between Lawbooks and Hammersoft on that subject, or else HS should account for their decision here. I must disagree with that: HS can and should refuse to revert their admin action if they have concerns it is the right thing to do. As to whether it would have been right thing to open up this discussion even if it was only to resolve the unfinalized question of whether and how to revert the revdel...eh? I don't really know. SnowRise let's rap 11:41, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Close, warning for Jheald I think this thread has already gone wildly off-track. The fact we're even debating Crown Copyright requirements shows there's still disagreement over how to properly deal with material despite endless previous discussions about this at the relevant policy page (thereby showing good reason for Hammersoft to have undertaken their actions). This is meant to be a forum for behavioural issues of which clearly there isn't one, outside of why Jheald is trying to intervene further in this after being repeatedly asked by Hammersoft to back off. Rambling Rambler (talk) 12:27, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- All factors considered, a close may be appropriate, as positions are only being hardened and the thread seems to have generated more by way of ill will than in terms of new perspectives. If Jheald and/or Lawbookswriter cannot see their way to waiting on an organic outcome, the appropriate remedy under policy is to request a formal closure at WP:AN. I personally do not recommend that route, as putting the community on a timer is unlikely to help the case for reverting the revdel, but that is their call. But any such request should list all three of the inter-related threads, so there is no issue as I see it with a fast procedural close here, especially given almost everyone is in agreement that no action is required w/ respect to HammerSoft. SnowRise let's rap 12:48, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- A request for formal closure was made a month ago. See request. Wading through all of this would take a great deal of effort for an uninvolved administrator. I don't expect that to happen. Where that leaves us is that the copyright status of this material is still questionable at best, and restoring it without consensus that it doesn't violate copyright would violate policy. I am not concerned about being personally sued by whatever government agency for restoring the material. We do not retain questionable material under the idea that they would never sue. I am concerned about violating our policies here. Given all the discourse on this subject, it is quite obvious that no consensus exists. There are people in the discussions that feel quite adamantly that the material is ok to use, and others who feel the opposite. Barring an RfC to get wider community input, I doubt we'll reach consensus on this, and even an RfC has a less than 50/50 chance of doing so I think. Lastly, to clarify with regards to Jheald; I have no issue with Jheald being involved in this concern. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:15, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, nobody is making the argument that the material is permissable because "they would never sue". Intentionally or not, that's a complete strawman argument. The argument (or, bluntly, fact) is that these are not copyviolations to begin with, because 1) there is no positive legal standard assigning judgments to crown copyright under UK law--and the judiciary, crown authorities, and the general legal academia highly doubtful there ever could be, 2) Even if there was, U.S. law expressly exempts it, and 3) in any event, all of these rulings are released under a license fully compatible with our policies, granting us permission to use any portion of the text we might elect to use. As to consensus, if the request is still open, despite your poking it, then we are stuck with a no consensus state of affairs, whatever the actual balance of perspectives, and whoever has the right of the issues. SnowRise let's rap 14:02, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, you did.
- You said
"I just can't see the crown ever trying to limit any effort to distribute its own public common law, any more than parliament would do for its acts."
- I responded
"are you saying that we shouldn't be so concerned about this because the Crown or UK Parliament will never act against us for posting this information?"
, - You responded
"Well, bluntly, yes"
. - You reinforced it with this post.
- You said
- I'm not making a strawman argument here. I also strongly disagree that I made a mistake in good faith or that my actions were in-apt (and yes I know that's not the same as inept). There's a serious, ongoing, unresolved concern regarding the copyright status of this material. That discussion and attempt at consensus is not governed by what our project liabilities are with regards to being sued. It is governed by policy here. We do not retain material that has a questionable copyright status unless we are using such material under terms of WP:NFCC. I appreciate your kind words in regards to me, but reject the notion that no action is required in regards to my supposedly mistaken actions. If I were presented with the same situation today I would act in the same manner. I do not feel I made a mistake. This really boils down to a very simple process;
- Is the material of questionable copyright status?
- If yes, remove and revdel the material until consensus is achieved to permit the material.
- That's it. It doesn't get any more complicated than that. Given the amount of discourse on this subject, I think we can all agree the material is of questionable copyright status, thus (1) is answered yes. (2) is answered by the reality that there is no consensus on this issue, no matter how ardently people believe one side or the other. Until such time as there is consensus, we do not retain it. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:48, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're mischaracterizing my overall position in that discussion through extremely cherry-picked sentences and sentence fragments. I'll encourage anyone wanting to know my actual positions to read my summary above, or go back to read my comments in the previous thread in full and in context. Beyond that, I'm not going to engage with this back and forth with you further. I've gone to some considerable lengths to defend your conduct and your exercise of your administrative prerogative in both of these threads, and you are not returning that good faith here.
"I think we can all agree the material is of questionable copyright status"
No, in fact we clearly do not. It's of disputed copyright status, I will grant you that. But "questionable"? IMO, not even a little. Per the three dispositive factors identified ad nauseum here and at the WP:Copyright talk page by editors with actual legal training and professional experience with these issues, there actually is no copyright violation here, because there is no express copyright under UK law, and even if there was, U.S. law expressly disallows it. And even if you could argue that the first two parts of the analysis are inaccurate (and they aren't) you certainly have no response to the fact that these rulings are free-use under the OGL license. Just because there are two sides to this debate does not mean that both are automatically equally predicated in a realistic reading of the law. Sometimes it's informed analysis versus hot take."Until such time as there is consensus, we do not retain it."
Yeah, I mean, I just said as much myself to you immediately above? SnowRise let's rap 15:21, 7 May 2026 (UTC)- I noted above that I appreciate your kind words. I do. But you have also wrongfully characterized my actions as "mistaken", "in-apt", and an "easy mistake to make", and now you accuse me of violating WP:AGF. Please, let's both drop the back and forth. As to the copyright status, I defer to Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#Copying text from BAILII, which is still unresolved. Editors with actual legal training have chimed including recommending we err on the side of caution . I am. My lack of inaction in restoring the revdel'd materials in no way prevents another administrator from doing so. All you have to do is convince another administrator to unrevdel the material. At least eight administrators now have contributed to this thread. Convince one of them. Just please stop accusing me of making mistakes or not assuming good faith. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:47, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're right: butting heads on the ultimate issue is not resolving anything. I continue to respect your commitment to your administrative responsibilities. Personally, I see nothing wrong with your choices regarding the revdel, given your take on the situation; I think you are mistaken about the underlying question of the copyvios, but we're just not going to have a meeting of the minds on that any time soon, and that's fine. SnowRise let's rap 16:30, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Concur. Now, about your copyvio of my words... --Hammersoft (talk) 17:10, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're right: butting heads on the ultimate issue is not resolving anything. I continue to respect your commitment to your administrative responsibilities. Personally, I see nothing wrong with your choices regarding the revdel, given your take on the situation; I think you are mistaken about the underlying question of the copyvios, but we're just not going to have a meeting of the minds on that any time soon, and that's fine. SnowRise let's rap 16:30, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I noted above that I appreciate your kind words. I do. But you have also wrongfully characterized my actions as "mistaken", "in-apt", and an "easy mistake to make", and now you accuse me of violating WP:AGF. Please, let's both drop the back and forth. As to the copyright status, I defer to Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#Copying text from BAILII, which is still unresolved. Editors with actual legal training have chimed including recommending we err on the side of caution . I am. My lack of inaction in restoring the revdel'd materials in no way prevents another administrator from doing so. All you have to do is convince another administrator to unrevdel the material. At least eight administrators now have contributed to this thread. Convince one of them. Just please stop accusing me of making mistakes or not assuming good faith. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:47, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're mischaracterizing my overall position in that discussion through extremely cherry-picked sentences and sentence fragments. I'll encourage anyone wanting to know my actual positions to read my summary above, or go back to read my comments in the previous thread in full and in context. Beyond that, I'm not going to engage with this back and forth with you further. I've gone to some considerable lengths to defend your conduct and your exercise of your administrative prerogative in both of these threads, and you are not returning that good faith here.
- Actually, you did.
- Well, nobody is making the argument that the material is permissable because "they would never sue". Intentionally or not, that's a complete strawman argument. The argument (or, bluntly, fact) is that these are not copyviolations to begin with, because 1) there is no positive legal standard assigning judgments to crown copyright under UK law--and the judiciary, crown authorities, and the general legal academia highly doubtful there ever could be, 2) Even if there was, U.S. law expressly exempts it, and 3) in any event, all of these rulings are released under a license fully compatible with our policies, granting us permission to use any portion of the text we might elect to use. As to consensus, if the request is still open, despite your poking it, then we are stuck with a no consensus state of affairs, whatever the actual balance of perspectives, and whoever has the right of the issues. SnowRise let's rap 14:02, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- A request for formal closure was made a month ago. See request. Wading through all of this would take a great deal of effort for an uninvolved administrator. I don't expect that to happen. Where that leaves us is that the copyright status of this material is still questionable at best, and restoring it without consensus that it doesn't violate copyright would violate policy. I am not concerned about being personally sued by whatever government agency for restoring the material. We do not retain questionable material under the idea that they would never sue. I am concerned about violating our policies here. Given all the discourse on this subject, it is quite obvious that no consensus exists. There are people in the discussions that feel quite adamantly that the material is ok to use, and others who feel the opposite. Barring an RfC to get wider community input, I doubt we'll reach consensus on this, and even an RfC has a less than 50/50 chance of doing so I think. Lastly, to clarify with regards to Jheald; I have no issue with Jheald being involved in this concern. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:15, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- All factors considered, a close may be appropriate, as positions are only being hardened and the thread seems to have generated more by way of ill will than in terms of new perspectives. If Jheald and/or Lawbookswriter cannot see their way to waiting on an organic outcome, the appropriate remedy under policy is to request a formal closure at WP:AN. I personally do not recommend that route, as putting the community on a timer is unlikely to help the case for reverting the revdel, but that is their call. But any such request should list all three of the inter-related threads, so there is no issue as I see it with a fast procedural close here, especially given almost everyone is in agreement that no action is required w/ respect to HammerSoft. SnowRise let's rap 12:48, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I must say that, having spent far too long reading pointless arguments here, I find myself in agreement with ActivelyDisinterested and (for once) Rambling Rambler. There is no behavoural issue. Let's accept for a moment that there is no doubt whatsoever about copyright. There is still the question of whether the content should be included, omitted, revdelled or whatever, which is decided, like any other content dispute, by consensus. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:57, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
PBugaboo
- PBugaboo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:PBugaboo has repeatedly harassed me despite my attempts to avoid them in order to prevent lengthy arguments between us (as see at Talk:Act III: This City Made Us, where they repeatedly engaged in bad faith and edit warred with me). I also have before asked them to leave me alone due to their repeated bad faith engagement with me. Recently, they joined a conversation on Invincible season 4, where they did not discuss the larger issue and only joined to paint a poor picture of me to other editors . I believe I acted collaboratively in that discussion and worked within the WP:BRD cycle, even suggesting a compromise after having policy be cleared up to me. After their involvement, I requested them to stop harassing me and following me around Wikipedia , to which they said I was DARVOing them and ignored my request/issue with their harassment, when I have continually avoided talking to them for the past months due to this disruptive behavior (as seen on the talk page for Act III and Invincible). Within the past month, the majority of their edits have been in argument with me. I have repeatedly tried to engage in good faith with them, even congratulating them on their work with a barnstar , but they keep insist on ignoring my good faith to continue to paint me in poor lights , even in unrelated conversation. I can recognize that I am an imperfect editor and have edit warred, even recently, but I am trying to improve and engage in good faith at every chance I get. PBugaboo has repeatedly engaged in bad faith and continued to interact me unneccessarily despite my requests for them to stop. I just want them to leave me alone, or at least engage in good faith with me instead of making me seem like a terrible editor and a bad person at every chance they get. Please let me know if I should get more diffs for their bad faith engagement and harassment and I will go searching if needs be, but a lot of it can be found in the Act III discussions. Thank you. IzzySwag (talk) 00:35, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Painting you in poor light is no harassment. At least I do not see harassment in the diffs you linked. I am not active on the ANI noticeboard, but I find that many times good and contributing users go to war with each other over minor issues. The best way to avoid this for you, IzzySwag and PBugaboo too, aside from any direct insult or incivility, would be avoiding each other. I think that we are all "harassed" to some degree in heated debates, and we are "harassers" sometimes too. Best to you all. CoryGlee 01:01, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
I requested them to stop harassing me and following me around Wikipedia
Do you have any diffs to confirm they're actively following you?- I'm looking through the links you provided but I'm not seeing anything particularly egregious - you were shouting at one point (ALLCAPS) but otherwise it looks like a normal, albeit slightly terse discussion. Both sides were slightly snarkier than they should ideally have been, but that's it.
- From the outside, it looks like two editors who don't get on and should maybe consider avoiding each other before things escalate.
- BTW I edited your post since you provided links as references instead of diffs, please see Help:Diff. Blue Sonnet (talk) 01:09, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think the Invincible season 4 diff should show them following me, as they have never interacted with Invincible before and joined the discussion only to attack me. I understand if that would not be sufficient proof though.
- I'd be fine just avoiding each other (and ideally, that's what would happen, I think Pbugaboo is a fine editor outside of this) and it is what I have tried to do but Pbugaboo joining that Invincible discussion as they did today makes me feel as if they do not have intention to leave me alone.
- Thank you for updating the links, I wasn't sure how to format them for this. Will keep in mind in the future. :) IzzySwag (talk) 01:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- No problem! Honestly, PBugaboo shouldn't have brought your conduct up here, but being fair you were slightly hostile to a well meaning and polite comment here.
- Otherwise, I think if you can both agree to try to avoid each other - nothing official, just taking a moment to check edit histories & noping out if you see the other person - would go a long way to resolving this, I'm hoping.
- If they follow you across multiple articles when you're actively avoiding them, that's obviously concerning and should be brought up.
- @PBugaboo, I'd like to please hear your thoughts on this when you have a moment? Blue Sonnet (talk) 01:21, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hello, thanks for the ping. I’d be happy to agree to avoid each other, though as I noted earlier today it seems that Izzy’s well-established and long-term pattern of behaviour (which I have previously tried bringing up with her on her talk page) will continue to disrupt other pages and other editors, as it has done prior to her interacting with me and as it has continued since I’ve tried to talk to her about it.
- While my own experience editing would probably be improved by not interacting with Izzy it seems pretty apparent that she will continue acting against the spirit of collaboration (being rude to other editors, delete content, etc). I don’t think it’s appropriate to just hope that she finds another person to argue with or another page to make disruptive edits on.
- As I said, I am happy to agree to mutually avoid Izzy, but I think that the concerns I’ve raised about her own conduct warrant some form of action (even if it’s someone in authority taking notice and suggesting she cut it out and be nicer to people - as it didn’t seem to make any impact when I did so on her user page, nor did the dozen other editors coming to her user page in the past).
- She has a long history of getting into fights that she justifies by saying she got heated/frustrated, resulting in edit warring, arguments in talk pages, belittling people on user pages, deletion of content mid-discussion, making edits that go against policy due to personal preferences, and so on. It was truly shocking seeing her talk page history and all the other people trying to discuss her behaviour with her, without any apparent change (often the page just being blanked by her). Her edit history is rife with conflict, this is by no means a me-specific issue.
- Happy to discuss further and provide links to specific examples of the behaviour I’ve noted, if desired. Otherwise an informal agreement to avoid each other is fine by me, though it will leave her conduct unchecked at the detriment of whoever next experiences the same things I (and many others) have. PBugaboo (talk) 01:57, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's my understanding that you would have to open another ANI report, PBugaboo. Unless it falls under WP:BOOMERANG. But I doubt it. What do you think, Blue Sonnet? CoryGlee 02:19, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Ah no worries. If it should be a separate matter I can collate some links together to establish the WP:RUNAWAY pattern of behaviour but I might not be able to get to it immediately, I lately only seem to have my commute time and breaks to make edits PBugaboo (talk) 02:28, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- The thread above us going a little nuts so it's hard to edit! I think it could be a subsection under this report (add one more = to the header), that way everything is kept together. Blue Sonnet (talk) 02:50, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think I've done what you suggested? Please change it if you think it wasn't right. Thanks! IzzySwag (talk) 02:52, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot, Blue Sonnet. Yes, I see the same as you; the thread above is going off a deep end. Thanks for this input. As always. CoryGlee 02:54, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- It's my understanding that you would have to open another ANI report, PBugaboo. Unless it falls under WP:BOOMERANG. But I doubt it. What do you think, Blue Sonnet? CoryGlee 02:19, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Is this another content dispute about Act III: This City Made Us? If so, I have at least two comments. First, there hasn't been any discussion on the article talk page for three weeks. I don't see any recent discussion there. Second, there was a discussion involving these editors and that article at DRN that was resolved satisfactorily in January 2026; see Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_268#Act_III:_This_City_Made_Us. I do see that PBugaboo made an unpleasant comment about IzzySwag, but at the same time said that they have been able to work out conflicts by DRN or RFC. If there is a content dispute between these users, about Act III: This City Made Us, Invincible season 4, or something else, I am ready to mediate at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- This is not about a content dispute at Act III (there is one at Invincible season 4, but not one involving Pbugaboo (but you are also free to give your thoughts there if you wish!)) but thank you for your willingness to get involved and thank you for showing a past dispute that got resolved satisfactorily. IzzySwag (talk) 02:32, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
IzzySwag's behavior
- I would really encourage admins and third parties to look into Izzy's behavior on Wikipedia because it's more likely that her behavior could qualify as harassment, rather than PBugaboo. As evidenced by her extensive edit history full of edit summaries pointed at users she doesn't agree with and arguing with other users, or where she deletes a lot of content without seeking consensus, often directly contradicting arguments she is currently embroiled in, and continually arguing with third parties who express opinions she doesn't share, like this recent RFC. Please check her talk page history, especially the messages that she deletes which ask her to stop editing disruptively and intentionally antagonizing other users. Surely the sheer volume of users who have tried and failed to work with her as evidenced by her edit history demonstrates where the problem lies in this case. From the disruptive editing guidelines, she is clearly (1) tendentious, (4) fails to engage in consensus building and in fact will actively edit against consensus in order to force her point of view on an article, and (6) campaigns to drive away productive editors by editing and arguing in a way that "operates toward an end of exhausting the patience of productive, rule-abiding editors on certain articles" - I certainly stopped editing for awhile after her attention. I'm sure if you bring many of the editors she is currently speaking with or has interacted with in the past here, they would have the same experience. Pingnova (talk) 02:27, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I'd just like to add that deleting talk page messages just means I have acknowledged and read the past comments, not trying to hide them. WP:BLANKING explains this.
- I'd also like to point out more productive/collaboratives discussions I've had such as ones on The World Is to Dig and Invincible season 4 to show I have changed and grown from this behavior. I understand I have been imperfect in the past but am working to improve my behavior on the site. IzzySwag (talk) 02:31, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have a lot of empathy for users whose frustrations make them explode here. I mean off-Wiki frustrations, real-life frustrations. However, I do not see how you are "working" the issues yet have brought a highly dubious report of "harassment" against PBugaboo. Believe me, I do not speak from a pedestal; I was "venting" my real-life issues on here not long ago. Rarely, too rarely, are things personal on Wikipedia. CoryGlee 02:35, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I mean, what sort of proof would you want to see to show how I have improved my behavior? I think there's a significant difference between what is shown Pingnova and my collaborative edits and discussions on Invincible season 4, The Boys season 5, and The World Is to Dig. Let me know how I can help, thanks. IzzySwag (talk) 02:38, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I am pointing out the frequent blanks of your talk page to alert other editors in this conversation that it is a practice you engage in so they do not miss the many messages posted to that page which raise the same concerns that I do, since blanking talk pages is not very common and can unintentionally give the appearance that no one is contacting that user.
- I want to point out for other users in this conversation how Izzy's tone changes when more third parties become involved, such as this ANI thread, and compare those to her previous edit summaries and arguments on pages with less oversight that are more isolated from the accountability system on Wikipedia.
- I also think it will be necessary for any dispute resolution to check if Izzy has "changed and grown" against her edit history and her talk page history. Pingnova (talk) 02:37, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Recarding the blanking, that makes sense! Thanks for the clarification. :) I should note that I have started archiving my talk page as of last week.
- Regarding the change in tone, yes, I do change in tone because usually in arguments and edit conflicts, I am more heated or angered in the discussion. I am willing to admit that flaw and in fact, I'm quite upset right now, but am trying my best to engage politely with everyone here in order to gain the best result for all involved. IzzySwag (talk) 02:41, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- You have incredibly long and strong pattern of incivility and editors who are repeatedly unable to remain civil and constructive in conversation are breaking core Wikipedia policy: "a continuing pattern of incivility may result in the editor being banned from the community." Pingnova (talk) 02:48, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have a lot of empathy for users whose frustrations make them explode here. I mean off-Wiki frustrations, real-life frustrations. However, I do not see how you are "working" the issues yet have brought a highly dubious report of "harassment" against PBugaboo. Believe me, I do not speak from a pedestal; I was "venting" my real-life issues on here not long ago. Rarely, too rarely, are things personal on Wikipedia. CoryGlee 02:35, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- The RFC discussion section looks like it was done in good faith, I'm not seeing any major disruption. Both sides were rather snarky, Izzy moreso than PB & both sides need to please bear this in mind for future:
- @Pingnova Can you please provide specific diffs for us to look at? We've got one where a large edit was made, but large amounts of information can be deleted in good faith without consensus, the issue is what happens after it's disputed.
- Izzy is perfectly entitled to delete Talk page comments, that doesn't mean or infer anything nefarious.
- It's honestly difficult to make any sort of assessment without diffs of specific edits to look through. Almost everything so far has been links to entire pages & a hope that the reader can figure the rest out for themselves.
- You've linked to Izzy's entire contribution history but it's not possible for us to dig though all of Izzy's edits to try to figure out which ones you're referring to - can you please give a few diffs of Izzy's edits that show a long history of incivility as you've said? Remember that we've not been involved in this, you need to explain what's happening & be as precise as you can. Blue Sonnet (talk) 03:15, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- If this helps I pulled some examples when talking to Izzy about her behaviour before, though I should have probably labelled the links in retrospect. If elaboration on each is desirable then I can do that maybe later today on my commute home PBugaboo (talk) 03:26, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- To examine these diffs, 1 and 7 were me engaging with an obvious troll, which I was warned (or rather trouted for)) afterwards. 2-6 can be snarky, exaggerated, and rude but nothing crossing the civility guidelines to my knowledge. In fact, in 6, that is me expressing my frustrations with PBugaboo's refusal to engage in good faith or compromise in accordance to Wikipedia policy. Diffs 8-9 were a bit rude, I can admit, but it was out of frustration with the misunderstanding of the source. I have since collaborated with Marco productively repeatedly with no further strong arguments between the two of us (in fact, I consider him one of my favorite people to work with on the site). IzzySwag (talk) 03:38, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- For additional consideration, here is another user pulling Izzy up on multiple instances of incivility from a year ago. Here she is less than a fortnight ago being rude in edit summaries despite asserting a month ago that she had changed. And even today in this very comment I’m replying to she still justifies rude comments on getting frustrated - when staying cool was literally one of the things on talk page I mentioned. On the topic of her talk page, in an admittedly cheeky manner, here is another user presenting her with her talk page history (showing multiple users reaching out to her about her behaviours, all blanked).
- Train is fairly packed so I don’t feel physically comfortable enough to do more research today, I will attempt to pull up more tomorrow if needed to establish a continuing pattern of incivility. PBugaboo (talk) 08:00, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- The user presenting me with my talk page history was directly violating the WP:BLANKING guideline in attempt to create a wall of shame for my past actions. IzzySwag (talk) 10:09, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- To examine these diffs, 1 and 7 were me engaging with an obvious troll, which I was warned (or rather trouted for)) afterwards. 2-6 can be snarky, exaggerated, and rude but nothing crossing the civility guidelines to my knowledge. In fact, in 6, that is me expressing my frustrations with PBugaboo's refusal to engage in good faith or compromise in accordance to Wikipedia policy. Diffs 8-9 were a bit rude, I can admit, but it was out of frustration with the misunderstanding of the source. I have since collaborated with Marco productively repeatedly with no further strong arguments between the two of us (in fact, I consider him one of my favorite people to work with on the site). IzzySwag (talk) 03:38, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Additional examples
- I have a few more examples below, and am relinking a previous example so that it's not buried.
- Edit summary rudeness from <2 weeks ago and being pulled up on verging towards edit warring despite asserting a month ago that she had changed.
- Other examples here
- Izzy recognising her own heated aggressive messages , the same excuse being used in the Amazing Digital Circus incident from <2 weeks ago and an example of this
- Edit war notices
- Another user noting edit warring and not seeking consensus
- Same person, saying Izzy is breaking the 3 revert rule
- Calling someone "insane"
- Multiple users pulling Izzy up on multiple instances of incivility
- Talk page message from an involved user on the Listenborough page, also noting the insults and problematic edits
- Trouted for trolling an IP editor
- Deleting a large section of a page while the conversation about the content was ongoing (during which she also invented a policy about article length that I found curious)
- Repeatedly belittling a user here
- Another thing I have noticed but is not necessarily disruptive is the habit of editing in spaces to articles at random to give herself space to explain previous edits.
- If the purpose of the blanking wasn't to hide the frequent content disputes that users find themselves in with Izzy (e.g.: to preserve her reputation), I do find it curious that the messages weren't moved into an archive page as this neutral interaction was
- I may be able to source more later this week if needed. PBugaboo (talk) 07:23, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- The Listenbourg incident was from over a year and was my first real example of realizing Wikipedia policies and how to be more civil on Wikipedia. I admit I was wrong there and I also was using it as a chance to grow. As you can see from those messages, I did do a lot of personal attacks suck as calling other editors stupid and insane but I have not done personal attacks like that in recent memory.
- I deleted a large section of that page because that is what it came to in the discussion. The section was nearly entirely unsourced or had poor sourcing where it did have it. I was following Wikipedia policy to remove it and it is still removed now due to its poor sourcing. You wanted it back despite its lack of notable, reliable sources. I also did not cite or invent any policy there?
- And additionally, for the last thing, see WP:Blank edit, that is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
- Nearly all of these examples are from an extended time ago, and some of them are even examples of owning my mistakes and trying to change from them. I think it is in bad faith to show me recognizing and apologizing my aggressive messages as a flaw. Additionally, both of those edit war notices tell me to open a discussion instead of edit warring, which I did do, showing my attempts to engage in good faith. PBugaboo has a persistent problem of engaging in bad faith and that is shown off in this very comment, it's the reason why I just want them to leave me alone.
- Due to all of these diffs except for one being from months ago, I don't think it shows a continuing pattern of incivility. What is shown here is that PBugaboo uses every opprotunity to paint me in a poor light with bad faith arguments, including showing an example of me apologizing or directly changing for my poor behavior, to other editors in order to worsen my reputation on the site. IzzySwag (talk) 11:33, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- To be clearer, Izzy was suggesting a metric of how long a band’s page should be in relation to the band’s size. This wasn’t based on existing policy. In the section deletion example, instead of putting in a maintenance tag for the section, she set an immediate deadline and mid discussion about the approach not being productive deleted it anyway. The section is being worked on in userspace, it takes longer to create than it does to destroy.
- Saying nearly all examples are from an extended time ago is conceding that some examples are not. She has acted in a negative manner in the past, in recent memory, and evidently will continue to act in similar ways without intervention from someone in authority, as many users have tried to talk to her about her actions to no apparent effect
- If this many editors over this many pages over this length of time are telling her the same things, the claim that her behaviour has changed is a tough sell. I have agreed to the suggestion of mutually avoiding each other, but she has proven time and again that she will find herself frustrated in another talk page or at another editor’s contributions and continue the same patterns.
- On personal attacks in recent memory, just because the word ‘stupid’ isn’t necessarily used does not mean she isn’t treating people like they are. The ideal isn’t for the snarkiness or rudeness to become subtler or to be targeted at someone else, it’s for it to end. PBugaboo (talk) 13:00, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, and I think your recent examples aren't violating civility policies and that's why I just ignored them. I don't think my behavior has been bad overall since the start of this year. You say evidently will continue to happen in the future, but what is evident is I admit my past mistakes, apologize for them, and try to work to be better, even if that change is not instantenous. Change is not something that happens overnight. I think it's clear in recent history, especially when not interacting with you, I have worked collaboratively and positively across Wikipedia.
- What is clear here is your refusal to admit any wrongdoing on your part while you continue to make bad faith arguments. It isn't against Wikipedia policy to make a passing bad argument about page size.
- You also have not agreed to the suggestion of leaving each other alone, even when I asked for you multiple times to leave me alone. This ANI was started because you followed me to a talk page to discuss my behavior without any relation to the topic of the article. That is concerning behavior to me. IzzySwag (talk) 13:09, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- At the risk of repeating myself, it’s a lot of editors encountering the same behaviours over a long period of time. I think the diffs speak for themselves, though as CoreyGlee noted this ANI itself is suggestive that Izzy hasn’t worked on this, and Pingnova’s comment shows it isn’t just me who has noticed her long history of incivility in recent memory. As I said, I can do some more checking for examples later this week if it’s useful, I think most of the examples were just from following the bouncing ball of her user page’s history. PBugaboo (talk) 14:03, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I just noticed you did this now so I'm replying now but when you add additional content to messages after someone has replied, please indicate the additional changes per WP:REDACT. You should update your message to show what you inserted after my initial replies, thanks. IzzySwag (talk) 15:53, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- Note that Izzy was editing messages in this thread to remove additional comments of hers so I didn’t think this was something to take issue with. Diff of my edit here if needed PBugaboo (talk) 21:50, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- And in a moment of irony… PBugaboo (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- I edited my comments before someone had replied, which is listed as acceptable and common practice. Please read the guideline previously linked. Thanks. IzzySwag (talk) 22:00, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think it’s better if the back and forth ends until other people weigh in on the diffs so that they’re not buried. Thanks Izzy PBugaboo (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- I just want to note that other editors become much less likely to read through a thread the longer it gets - that just makes it harder to understand what's happening.
- Since everyone's a volunteer and doing this in their own spare time (including admins), they'll look at whatever they can resolve quickly then move onto the longer threads.
- Of course, this means the longer a thread gets, the lower down the "queue" it'll go.
- In an ideal world that doesn't happen, but it's just the reality of a volunteer-run project like this, where everyone is editing when they could be watching TV, playing with their kids, going out, etc.
- Please try to leave this thread alone and wait for an admin to review it. Blue-Sonnet 22:12, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- I edited my comments before someone had replied, which is listed as acceptable and common practice. Please read the guideline previously linked. Thanks. IzzySwag (talk) 22:00, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- And in a moment of irony… PBugaboo (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- Note that Izzy was editing messages in this thread to remove additional comments of hers so I didn’t think this was something to take issue with. Diff of my edit here if needed PBugaboo (talk) 21:50, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- If this helps I pulled some examples when talking to Izzy about her behaviour before, though I should have probably labelled the links in retrospect. If elaboration on each is desirable then I can do that maybe later today on my commute home PBugaboo (talk) 03:26, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- I wanted to note, with the recent editing of this thread, that I am still interested in this case, and was following the advice to wait for an admin. I don't consider this case closed. Pingnova (talk) 02:36, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'd like to note that this thread was archived, then removed from the archive from PBugaboo, and returned to the wrong form. I assume this was an accident but I've moved it back to the correct form. I also do not understand why the thread was removed from the archives. It feels like a case of WP:DEADHORSE to me. Pingnova's reply has reset its archive timer though. IzzySwag (talk) 03:02, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for restoring it to the correct form. It's worth noting that you previously attempted to 're-archive' this discussion after I restored it following premature archival by the bot. An admin has not weighed in yet, and the conversation hasn't died out - we were told to wait. PBugaboo (talk) 03:11, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- ANI is a very busy noticeboard, so it's set to automatically archive after three days of no activity. After that period of time, threads have usually been closed or discussion has naturally petered off - in this case, the length of the existing discussion may have led people to think that an admin was already involved (this was my worry); they don't often get this lengthy with only the participants writing posts.
- Hopefully an admin will come along shortly. Blue-Sonnet 03:45, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for restoring it to the correct form. It's worth noting that you previously attempted to 're-archive' this discussion after I restored it following premature archival by the bot. An admin has not weighed in yet, and the conversation hasn't died out - we were told to wait. PBugaboo (talk) 03:11, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'd like to note that this thread was archived, then removed from the archive from PBugaboo, and returned to the wrong form. I assume this was an accident but I've moved it back to the correct form. I also do not understand why the thread was removed from the archives. It feels like a case of WP:DEADHORSE to me. Pingnova's reply has reset its archive timer though. IzzySwag (talk) 03:02, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am an administrator. A few observations. When an editor is involved in constant bickering with several other editors, that is usually a sign that adjustment of their behavior is in order. Article talk pages are the best place to resolve content disputes. Arguing in edit summaries is poor practice, and summaries should be succinct and to the point. Per Help:Edit summary,
Avoid long summaries. Edit summaries are not for explaining every detail, writing essays about "the truth", or long-winded arguments with fellow editors. For discussions, you should use the talk page.
That help page also saysAvoid incivility. Snide comments, personal remarks about editors, and other aggressive edit summaries are explicit edit-summary "don'ts" of the Wikipedia Civility policy.
My focus on edit summaries should not be taken as a justification to take that type of behavior elsewhere. This is a collaborative project and our civility policy requires us to maintaina pleasant editing environment by behaving politely, calmly, and reasonably, even during heated discussions
. So, IzzySwag, be mindful of these behavioral expectations. When involved in a dispute of any type, think carefully before you publish your change. Is your comment likely to build consensus and help resolve disputes, or will it throw fuel on the fire and make matters worse? As for edit warring, when two editors are involved, both are to blame. Do not engage in any edit warring behavior. Period. End of story. You concede that your past behavior has been problematic and you claim that you are doing better. And yet other editors are still expressing concerns. So it seems that you have more work to do. It would be very unfortunate for you if the old pattern of negative behavior continues. Please do better. Cullen328 (talk) 05:29, 5 May 2026 (UTC)- Thank you for your input and I will keep this in mind in the future to try to avoid future edit wars and have more productive conversations in content disputes. IzzySwag (talk) 05:43, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- If it's helpful, I try to imagine that my boss/potential boss or someone I really admire will come across my whole Wikipedia history in the future. If I'm not happy for them to see it, I won't post it.
- I know this is probably overkill and not what most people do here, but it's served me well over the years.
- If you feel yourself getting wound up (you know the feeling, you start getting tingles down your arm and your chest gets a little tight) then stop what you're doing and do a couple of laps around the room - go get a drink or snack, then come back and decide what you'll write. If you're not sure whether it's a good idea, then it's probably not a good idea!
- Trust your instincts.
- If there's a niggling doubt, it's probably there for a reason. Blue-Sonnet 06:54, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you for your input and I will keep this in mind in the future to try to avoid future edit wars and have more productive conversations in content disputes. IzzySwag (talk) 05:43, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
Recent events and PBugaboo's behavior
- Unfortunately IzzySwag appears to have almost immediately been involved in another edit war and was being aggressive in a lengthy edit summary as part of this. She subsequently left a template on the user page of the other editor to advise against edit warring. PBugaboo (talk) 03:37, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I have not crossed the three revert rule, only two of my reverts were on the same topic, and I brought the discussion to the talk page (after trying initally on the user's talk page) to discuss it after the second revert (of that same content) to avoid edit warring. I was not being aggressive in the plot summary and nothing is wrong with long edit summaries to explain the reverts made. I was reverting three things within that one revert, so I needed to explain all reverts made. The template I left on that user's talk page was valid as they had reverted five times within 24 hours, a clear violation of the three revert rule.
- This is a clearly bad faith argument, I have acted in accordance to Wikipedia policy. IzzySwag (talk) 03:43, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Here is the talk page discussion where I acted politely and calmly with the editor I was in disagreement with as well. Talk:The Boys season 5#Adam Bourke + Cronies in plot summary. IzzySwag (talk) 03:47, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- The direction was pretty clear that edit warring isn’t something only one person does. The diff I linked includes two unnecessary comments that go directly against the instruction you were given - “Stop removing his name” (aggressive) and “they're playing poker, which is like... a normal thing friends do” (snide). Returning directly to the same negative pattern of behaviour right after being told to stop by an admin reflects poorly. PBugaboo (talk) 04:24, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think it is bad faith to call it edit warring, two reverts where I explain new information each time before taking it to the talk page is not edit war behavior, especially since I did not violate the three revert rule. Neither of those comments are aggressive or snide, I think that's a bad faith reading. To be aggressive would be, "Stop removing his name or you're a bad editor." or "You need to stop removing his name or I will report you." To be snide, it would be "Clearly you don't know what friends do with one another." This is another example of you taking things in bad faith, which you repeatedly do, such as implying giving a warning for violating the three revert rule is not something one should do or me editing my comments in accordance to WP:REDACT. Read WP:IUC and notice I have not been directly or indirectly rude by those standards.
- You, however, have shown signs of WP:WIKIHOUNDING, as seen on the Invincible season 4 talk page. You have also acted uncollaboratively to push your POV of what should be included on pages, such as on The Protomen, where on the Talk:The Protomen#Performance History, you had a lenghty drawn-out discussion on including an entirely unsourced or poorly sourced section because you thought it should be included, when not a single other band has a list of every performance they have done. Here, you accuse me of WP:OWN for wanting to remove the unsourced/poorly sourced section. Here, I explain why the sources you provided are not acceptable by Wikipedia policy in detail for each one, to which your reply is rude and shows a clear inability to collaborate, saying "I'm glad you found consensus by yourself", when I spent time showing you how the sources you provided are weak and unusable. That's bad faith argument and shows you are unable to collaborate productively. I stopped editing Protomen pages so I would stop being in excessively long arguments on Wikipedia every day, as seen on Talk: Act III: This City Made Us, where you can be seen also turning content discussions into conversations your distaste of me, even after I apologize for the perceived slight and past possible rudeness). You show a clear pattern of being unable to focus on content, not contributor. And yet you still shown signs of following me around to take what I do in bad faith, as seen just now with your mention of The Boys season 5 page.
- I also find it necessary to mention that PBugaboo implied I am an abuser by saying I was doing "DARVO stuff" here. DARVO is a tactic used by abusers, as defined at DARVO. This shows again PBugaboo's bad faith arguments, highly inappropriate treatment of me, and incivility in discussions with me. I have not denied my past actions, I have not personally attacked PBugaboo, and I have shown how PBugaboo has acted inappropriately in discussions. Using DARVO to imply I am an abuser while I clearly have not done anything resembling DARVO shows that PBugaboo cannot interact in good faith with me.
- All I am asking for here is for you to leave me alone, which you have shown a clear inability to do so, restarting this thread after a period of inactivity twice now, again showing your consistent behavior of drawing out long arguments, reading everything I do in bad faith, and Wikihounding me with poor intent. IzzySwag (talk) 11:14, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- The thread wasn't restarted - it has not been archived since @Cullen328 weighed in and you almost immediately resumed acting in the same manner, against the directions you were given. I note that in less than 48 hours and across these two diffs you almost point-for-point did the exact opposite of what you were directed to do. I'm not by any means suggesting the user you are arguing with is in the right, but you are still using edit summaries to argue with people and are doing it in a way that is adding fuel to the fire. PBugaboo (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's clearly not the same manner and it was not arguing in edit summary, it was explaining my reverts. That is what you do when you revert, it would be way worse if I just reverted without explaining. When I realized my explainations were not enough in the edit summaries, I brought the discussion to the talk page. Explainations of reverts and then going to the talk page when that isn't sufficient is how you come to a consensus, which did happen after a discussion and involvement from other editors. I did as directed by discussing politely and civily in the discussions even despite the other user's violation of Wikipedia policy. Neither of those diffs show aggressive or snide behavior, simply explainations for the reverts, especially the first one linked there. Again, you show you cannot engage in good faith in conversations, making accusations of edit warring and misrepresenting my edit summaries. IzzySwag (talk) 13:45, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Regarding the content of the edit summaries apparently just explaining your reversions, "Stop removing his name." is a direction being given that has nothing to do with summarising the edit you made. "That's not a "shady dealing"," is an argument being presented, later raised on the talk page..
- Having these conversations in edit summaries while reverting the edits of someone who you believe is actively edit warring is ignoring this very clear direction: "As for edit warring, when two editors are involved, both are to blame. Do not engage in any edit warring behavior. Period. End of story." You said two days ago that you would keep in mind.
- As others have noted, this is a volunteer-run project and it's probably best to wait for an admin to weigh in rather than have the thread blow out with a back and forth. PBugaboo (talk) 14:22, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, yes, I said "Stop removing the name" because the only argument presented prior was "Nobody cares about this character, they're an insignificant character", which is an extremely poor for removing the character from the plot summary. There was clear reasons as to why the character was significant to the plot and the only argument there being for his removal was "Nobody actually cares about them" is invalid and seems like OR to state the character nobody cares about that character. And again, explaining my reverts is perfectly acceptable and it is strange you keep implying that I shouldn't have done that.
- I'm fine waiting for an admin, but if you continue to make arguments on my edit summaries, I will continue to respond to them.
- I also want to note I don't think the other user was particuarly even edit warring with me or in general, they just reverted 5 times in 24 hours, breaking the 3RR. It wasn't really edit warring behavior considering only 2 of their reverts were on the same topic iirc. But, the 3RR is there and they just needed a reminder of it. IzzySwag (talk) 14:29, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's clearly not the same manner and it was not arguing in edit summary, it was explaining my reverts. That is what you do when you revert, it would be way worse if I just reverted without explaining. When I realized my explainations were not enough in the edit summaries, I brought the discussion to the talk page. Explainations of reverts and then going to the talk page when that isn't sufficient is how you come to a consensus, which did happen after a discussion and involvement from other editors. I did as directed by discussing politely and civily in the discussions even despite the other user's violation of Wikipedia policy. Neither of those diffs show aggressive or snide behavior, simply explainations for the reverts, especially the first one linked there. Again, you show you cannot engage in good faith in conversations, making accusations of edit warring and misrepresenting my edit summaries. IzzySwag (talk) 13:45, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- The thread wasn't restarted - it has not been archived since @Cullen328 weighed in and you almost immediately resumed acting in the same manner, against the directions you were given. I note that in less than 48 hours and across these two diffs you almost point-for-point did the exact opposite of what you were directed to do. I'm not by any means suggesting the user you are arguing with is in the right, but you are still using edit summaries to argue with people and are doing it in a way that is adding fuel to the fire. PBugaboo (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Unfortunately IzzySwag appears to have almost immediately been involved in another edit war and was being aggressive in a lengthy edit summary as part of this. She subsequently left a template on the user page of the other editor to advise against edit warring. PBugaboo (talk) 03:37, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
IzzySwag, I am disappointed to see this new behavior only a couple of days after I gave you some very specific advice to behave in a more collaborative way. Your comments since my input seem to indicate that you do not understand what edit warring actually is. WP:3RR is a subsection of the much longer edit warring policy that you should read in full and study, and it says any amount of edit warring may lead to sanctions
and later says Even without a 3RR violation, an administrator may still act if they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit warring with or without 3RR being breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times.
And I gave you detailed advice about edit summaries, quoting this language from the relevant help page, Avoid long summaries. Edit summaries are not for explaining every detail, writing essays about "the truth", or long-winded arguments with fellow editors.
So what did you do? You wrote an argumentative, long winded five sentence edit summary. I do not think that I have ever written a five sentence edit summary in nearly 17 years of editing Wikipedia. Your first sentence was im pretty sure metacritic is not a reliable source.
Pretty sure? Well, you were wrong. At Reliable sources/Perennial sources, the consensus of editors is Metacritic is considered generally reliable for its review aggregation and its news articles on film, TV, and video games.
So, your credibility takes a major hit at that point. On to your third sentence, Stop removing his name.
You are issuing a direct order to another editor in an edit summary. The community has not given you the authority to issue orders or the power to enforce them. I will not comment on the content matters, except to say that you are being argumentative. So, that was a really bad edit summary that you wrote. And you are repeatedly accusing other editors of bad faith without presenting persuasive evidence. Please read and study Wikipedia:Casting aspersions to develop an understanding of why this is a very bad idea. So, I framed my comments a couple of days ago as what I hoped that you would perceive as a gentle warning in the form of friendly advice. But you ignored it. So, consider this a firm and formal warning that your behavior has been disruptive and you must correct it. If you don't, there are many tools available to me and other administrators to ensure that your disruptive behavior comes to an end. Do you understand? Cullen328 (talk) 19:04, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
Repeated incivility/personal attacks by User:EEng
User:EEng, who was temporarily blocked for incivility as recently as a couple of years ago and seems to be fairly regularly brought to ANI for incivility going on 10+ years now, has gone on a tirade during a move discussion of a page he created here against multiple editors including myself. Some choice quotes include:
...save everyone time by withdrawing this nomination...
Mildy? My powers of condescension must be abandoning me.
I guess you have as much trouble reading essays as you do reading policies and guidelines.
Now please go back to editing about video games (...) and leave serious editors alone.
And after being warned about his inflammatory language, You don't seriously expect us to sit still for a stylistic lecture from someone who writes run-on sentences and doesn't know what hyphens are for, do you?
, You're wasting your breath...
against a new editor who was participating in the discussion with well reasoned arguments.
There does not seem to have been any lesson learned from previous incidents in the slightest; on the contrary, it seems that he was just emboldened by the apparent slap on the wrist, wag of the finger. I don't think being a veteran editor should give you a get out of jail free card to say such hateful things against other editors, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, I gave fair warning that I would report it if he did not redact his obvious personal attacks against me. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- ...As an addendum, the user's talk page is a whopping 1 million bytes, presumably to stymie any attempt to discuss his problematic conduct. There are even complaints about how it causes other users' browsers to chug, mine included. It would be very difficult to hold a typical discussion there. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:30, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Could you please provide the diffs that show EEng violates WP:CIV and WP:AGF? Plus, it seems (as of now) that EEng's talk page is rather small, and all the bytes may be just because of the thing at the top. Their userpage is quite large, very large, it made me lag far too much.
- I started noticing EEng while ANI patrolling, as I saw them often replying and discussing people in ANI reports. From my perspective at the time, he seemed like a chill editor with no problems. But I'd like to see the diffs just for me to take my side on this report, because I don't really have an opinion here, as I haven't seen a problem with his editing, although the block in 2024 will absolutely affect my side here. Thanks, diffs please :). Jetwindy-☎️-✈️ 22:54, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think it's all on the same discussion page at Wikipedia talk:Principle of Some Astonishment#Requested move 30 April 2026. Blue-Sonnet 00:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- It crashed my terminal, somehow. (Talk) PHLOGISTON ENTHUSIAST 19:28, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm resisting the urge to post Template:Facepalm here. That addendum strikes me as throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, given the lengthy history of such complaints and the general consensus that people should find more productive things to edit about. But as for the main point of this report, that move discussion is being WP:SNOW opposed by every editor who has responded there at the time that I write this, so it appears likely that the requested move is going to be found to be without merit. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:47, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- So are you arguing that disagreeing with a requested move makes personal attacks allowed? Otherwise I don't see how that's relevant. This is about the behavior within the move, not the move itself. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, I'm not a defender of personal attacks, but there is an ambiguous continuum between heated disagreement and personal attacks. Here, you have made a proposal to userfy an essay, and everyone who has responded there (now including me) has said that the proposal is without merit. Would it have been better if EEng had restricted his comments to the merits and demerits of the proposal, instead of pointing out how you have gotten things wrong? Yes. Is this something that rises to the level of needing administrator intervention? No. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- (I apologize for the late & long reply)
- A move discussion created
without merit
is no excuse for inciviliy, even if it is being SNOW-opposed. However, since EEng has a very long history of getting blocked, and then unblocked shortly later, I unfortunately doubt anything will come of this discussion unless a new civility precedent will be set by the Schrocat arbitration case, allowing for an uncontroversial block/other sanction, or if this report of an unblockable editor acting in poor conduct gets escalated. - Regarding your second point:
Would it have been better if EEng had restricted his comments to the merits and demerits of the proposal, instead of pointing out how you have gotten things wrong?
I don't see how EEng waspointing out how you have gotten things wrong
, assuming you mean the condescending and bad-faith remarks showcased in the middle of ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ's starting comment here, although they did provide an example of the watchers of WP:POSA nearly-unanimously opposing a move discussion, indicating that another move discussion would get opposed as well. - Regarding Men Kissing's comment: I agree on you on really everything you said, although as somebody who was formerly a very active Wikipedia reader, and thus somebody who has seen a wide variety of conduct disputes, including several revolving around EEng, I was a little surprised that you haven't seen previous conduct disputes about EEng before, but every editor has different experiences, of course.
- In this case, I'd recommend you see EEng's block log, and the diffs/examples/URLs that administrators have pointed to in it.
- Yes, I was aware of the extent of EEng's incivility during that discussion, however, I didn't decide to do much about it since I doubted action would accomplish much, and I hoped that EEng would learn to be more friendly in the rest of the discussion after I admonished him for incivility, but I know see that I am wrong on both of those assumptions. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 01:41, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Since the new fad here seems to be belly aching about how long talk pages are, I'm going to belly-ache about how long this ANI thread has become (but apparently it's OK to be overly long on ANI even if it's a crime to do it on EEng's talk). Anyway, I guess I'll put this reply here.
- You raise some points in direct reply to me, about whether EEng's comments were personal attacks, and those are substantive issues that I should indeed reply to. So I'm going to go through each of them, one-by-one:
- "...save everyone time by withdrawing this nomination...": No, that's not a personal attack, and it's not particularly escalatory. Even a day later, it's very clear that the nomination will never get close to getting consensus, and it, along with this ANI drama, is indeed wasting a lot of editor time.
- "Mildy? My powers of condescension must be abandoning me.": That's more self-deprecation than it is escalation, and it's not evidence of something requiring admin action.
- "I guess you have as much trouble reading essays as you do reading policies and guidelines." Yeah, that one I don't like. There's a credible issue that the nominator has a view of policies, guidelines, and essays that is contrary to that of all the other editors in the move discussion, but I would not have expressed it that way.
- "Now please go back to editing about video games (...) and leave serious editors alone.": I don't like that one, either.
- "You don't seriously expect us to sit still for a stylistic lecture from someone who writes run-on sentences and doesn't know what hyphens are for, do you?, You're wasting your breath...": There's a context, and after all, the essay in question is about competence in writing for Wikipedia, but still, that makes a third one I don't like.
- I think that's a fair evaluation. And what I said was: "Would it have been better if EEng had restricted his comments to the merits and demerits of the proposal, instead of pointing out how you have gotten things wrong? Yes." I still think that's fair, too. So what I'm seeing is an incredibly lengthy ANI thread filled with lengthy comments by people who complain about lengthy talk pages (huh?), and all manner of elevated affect, over three comments that were to some extent provoked, but which also were net negatives. Beyond that, I'm still seeing spaghetti being thrown at the wall, a lot of over-reacting, and no valid reason for admin action. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- How does several comments being very long demote an entire argument? Before EEng "archived" every thread on his talk page, it was well over one million bytes. This discussion will never reach close to that unless 30+ users get involved, and it gets listed on WP:CENT.
Since the new fad here seems to be belly aching about how long talk pages are
when EEng's talk page was over a million bytes, did it load easily for you? There are a number of issues with extremely long talk pages that have already been brought up in this discussion, so we aren'tbelly aching
about how long talk pages are, we are discussing automatic archiving of EEng's talk page in the hopes of getting it to a consistent size that doesn't slow discussions, or repel new discussions. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 21:55, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- To give a serious answer about my being able to edit his talk page, I wouldn't try to open the entire talk page to edit it. But when I open an individual section to add my comment to what someone else has posted, or when I start a new talk section, I don't have a noticeable problem. And there's nothing extraordinary about my computer or my internet connection. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ohh, so you would manually type in a URL for a specific discussion, with
&action=edit§ion=xappended to it, so only that section loads? That is a smart idea, although not very many editors would do that, and really, most editors shouldn't need to do that, hence the ongoing discussion about manual archiving. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 22:12, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- Oh no, and I'm wondering if that's where you are running into problems. I don't do that at all. For replying in an existing section, I merely click the edit button at the top of the section, and for starting a new section, I merely click the new section button at the top of the talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- What I meant was: When you want to edit only one specific section of a page, adding that URL appendix can send you to source-edit the Nth section of that page. I barely ever do that, if ever, but what I normally do is normally load the talk page of EEng, (or really any other user for that matter), waiting for the page to fully load before I press any buttons or keys.
- Like I have said before, it takes my Chromebook over a full minute to load that 1 million byte page, and 2 extra full minutes when hitting any "edit" button, and then another minute or two to save my changes. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 22:25, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hmm, I go to his talk page, use the arrow-down thing to go to the bottom, find the section, and click the section-edit link, and it takes me nowhere near to that much time. I've been in a lot of discussions like this one, and I get the impression that this is often a matter of the internet connection, although it can also be a matter of browser settings or something else. I also tend to think that WMF needs to do more with the underlying software here, to improve load times. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Then that means you must have a very good computer. I run it on super fast internet, and still get lag on my Chromebook (haven't tried on the best computer in the house since I don't normally edit on it), like around 1+. That isn't normal on my end, so I believe it's a length issue, not a software issue. If it were software, other issues would pop up, but its getting the information from the server issue, since browsers use ram to show the page, and 1 million bytes is a ton for it to register, especially with there being images that require it to pull from another site at the same time it's registering text. This slows down the rendering engine for Chrome and other browsers, since its quite hard to optimize a giant amount of content length without using a whole lot of RAM. It's not a software issue, but its a hardware issue. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 00:07, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm using a Dell desktop with a reasonable amount of RAM and a reasonably good video driver, the current version of Firefox as a browser, with a broadband cable internet connection. It's good, but nothing out of the ordinary. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- That's quite interesting. I don't know exactly how MediaWiki works, but I am currently trying to fully figure it out, as I do have access to see the repository. The main reason why the proposal was reopened was due to it going to be requested to be re-archived again next year. Also, just shoving all the posts into a single archive didn't really fix anything, since it would still be the same length with the same issues. (I think the main issue with the page was probably the amount of images, but I don't know fully.) SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 00:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm using a Dell desktop with a reasonable amount of RAM and a reasonably good video driver, the current version of Firefox as a browser, with a broadband cable internet connection. It's good, but nothing out of the ordinary. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Then that means you must have a very good computer. I run it on super fast internet, and still get lag on my Chromebook (haven't tried on the best computer in the house since I don't normally edit on it), like around 1+. That isn't normal on my end, so I believe it's a length issue, not a software issue. If it were software, other issues would pop up, but its getting the information from the server issue, since browsers use ram to show the page, and 1 million bytes is a ton for it to register, especially with there being images that require it to pull from another site at the same time it's registering text. This slows down the rendering engine for Chrome and other browsers, since its quite hard to optimize a giant amount of content length without using a whole lot of RAM. It's not a software issue, but its a hardware issue. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 00:07, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hmm, I go to his talk page, use the arrow-down thing to go to the bottom, find the section, and click the section-edit link, and it takes me nowhere near to that much time. I've been in a lot of discussions like this one, and I get the impression that this is often a matter of the internet connection, although it can also be a matter of browser settings or something else. I also tend to think that WMF needs to do more with the underlying software here, to improve load times. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oh no, and I'm wondering if that's where you are running into problems. I don't do that at all. For replying in an existing section, I merely click the edit button at the top of the section, and for starting a new section, I merely click the new section button at the top of the talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ohh, so you would manually type in a URL for a specific discussion, with
- To give a serious answer about my being able to edit his talk page, I wouldn't try to open the entire talk page to edit it. But when I open an individual section to add my comment to what someone else has posted, or when I start a new talk section, I don't have a noticeable problem. And there's nothing extraordinary about my computer or my internet connection. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- So are you arguing that disagreeing with a requested move makes personal attacks allowed? Otherwise I don't see how that's relevant. This is about the behavior within the move, not the move itself. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
presumably to stymie any attempt to discuss his problematic conduct.
Is a major failure to WP:AGF. I think, like much of EEng's behaviour, the overlong talk page is a sort of self-aware crotchety 'trolling,' given that I have at least once before seen him respond to criticism of the length of his talk page with something to the effect of "just for that, I'm going to make it even longer." Athanelar (talk) 16:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- Oh it is that, it 100% is - it's the same sense of humour that my dad has, I can see it a mile away! Blue-Sonnet 19:00, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Did you go full Dr. Evil when you said "one MILLION bytes"? Asking for a friend. —Locke Cole • t • c • b 18:45, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
Now please go back to editing about video games, where apparently it doesn't matter whether what you say makes any sense or not, and leave serious editors alone.
is indeed a personal attack. The rest of EEng's participation in that thread, I also find escalatory. Telling an editor to withdraw their nomination to avoid wasting time is also, as Blue Elephant identified, condescending. EEng, I tell you this candidly because I expect that I can with you: knock it off.- Nonetheless, their reaction was well provoked, and I see no evidence that this represents any sort of pattern of misconduct. "Three years ago" is not recent enough. If you do truly believe that EEng exhibits a pattern of incivility that you are unable to resolve talking to them personally, then you need to provide a list of diffs spanning more discussions.
- I do wish EEng would trim their talk page, even if it's kinda funny that it's so long, but EEng is definitely not keeping their talk page long to dispel critics of theirs as you are suggesting. That is a textbook example of assumption of bad faith on your part, Zxc. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 01:18, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am not sure how their "reaction was well provoked". The move nomination did not try to impugn the original creator at all, and was purely on the merits of the essay and whether it was within guidelines. A simple "actually no, because ____" would have sufficed. I admit that the statement about the talk page might be an assumption, but I also cannot see a clear reason why the page would be left that way that isn't some form of discouraging discussion. I can't really see the hilarity in making people wait a full minute to load editing, especially if they use visual editor and not just code. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The first two comments on your list are civil and the others came after multiple editors had given you what you suggest here “would have sufficed” — but obviously it didn’t suffice to get you to withdraw the proposal, as you continued to argue the point. ~2026-86111-3 (talk) 10:31, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, it's an essay that I expect EEng rests a lot of his pride on; he's the primary author and curator of it, and it's well liked in the community. It's even referenced in the WP:EDDY he got, see User_talk:EEng#Editor_of_the_Week.
- Maybe that's not rational; deleting or demoting something that someone wrote is a necessary evil we commit many times a day on Wikipedia, and I'm sure EEng understands that. But I do think that for that particular page, one ought to exhibit a bit more patience with EEng specifically.
- Still, "well provoked" might have been too much. I walk that claim back partially. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 12:44, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Personally, Eeng is one of my favourite Wikipedians, but bluntly, I don't give a flying fig what their motivation is for thumbing their nose at the expectation to maintain their talk page within reasonable size constraints: the time has come for them to grow up on this issue and let go of their affectation. Users do not own their talk pages, which are vital spaces for administrative notice, dispute resolution and various other communication functions which are prescribed to take place there and which other editors have to adhere to. And, as the existence of this and a fair few ANI threads over the years demonstrate, Eeng doesn't exactly shy away from conduct that might necessitate another community member having to reach out to them in that space. Whatever it is about refusing to regularly archive their talk page that tickles Eeng so much, it is not reasonable for them to expect us to indulge that impulse or indifference where it creates significant technical issues for anyone who has to load the page. As far as I have experienced, literally every single one of our tens of thousands of historical veteran editors has managed to keep their TP to a reasonable size, except for the singular exception of Eeng. Nor is it as if Eeng is unaware of these issues: I'm quite confident I have seen it raised on this forum alone at least a half dozen times over the years, and every five years or so, Eeng concedes the point and makes some sort of token effort to get out from under scrutiny of the matter, but never adopts ongoing management of the issue and that TP is soon back to breaking browsers. Honestly, I think it's a statement of disrespect to the community, intentional or not, that Eeng is willing to force us to potentially have to WP:CREEP out a rule about the maximum byte size of a user talk to address the obstinacy of one user, instead of just spending five minutes every two years doing what literally every other single one of us does voluntarily and without having to be told to do. At this point, I'd be more than happy to support a proposal to require Eeng to use an archive bot, if they won't manage the matter manually. And again, this is someone who is fond of Eeng speaking: the issue is just that blatant and unambiguous to me. I'm going to reserve on the claimed civility issue and leave that to others. SnowRise let's rap 10:36, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- My phone legitimately crashed and locked up the last time I tried to look at EEng's Talk page - I had to do a restart! It was a pretty old phone and I've got a slightly newer one since, but I haven't dared to go back.
- It's a pity 'cause I like EEng, but it means I can't use their Talk page to communicate. It's basically a stress-test for electronics. Blue-Sonnet 10:54, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I recall that they have two archiving scripts installed—probably for decoration. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:41, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- As a sanction EENG's 'humour', they should be made to implement the standard archiving settings on their talk page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:28, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I recall that they have two archiving scripts installed—probably for decoration. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:41, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- At the very least, the talk page should be forced archived. Even if it's being done purely because the user is stubborn or finds it humorous for whatever reason, it is in contravention of being WP:HERE, specifically the part about being willing to work collaboratively with others, which a talk page that breaks browsers and hard crashes phones simply cannot allow.
- It's unfortunate that mockery that can easily drive away editors permanently can be handwaved away, but I guess it is as BlueElephant said - a new precedent should be set for "rock star" type editors who believe it is fine to trash the proverbial hotel room again and again. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:30, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- You both might want to have a look at Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 12:46, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I support this, but I don't think we should force this to happen immediately. EEng recently said he's been going through a lot of stuff IRL. I'd rather give him a chance to set up archiving the way he wants, so I think it should be a deadline, something like, "you have to commit to adequate archiving of your talk page before the end of May, or else it will be set up for you." MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 12:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support any effort, even third party, to place arching on EEng's talkpage. Just tried to look at it and on a 500mb connection with an exceptional desktop pc for gaming it still took seconds to load.
- I'd hate to think of anyone trying to work with that on any mobile device or less powerful pc. Rambling Rambler (talk) 12:58, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am not sure how their "reaction was well provoked". The move nomination did not try to impugn the original creator at all, and was purely on the merits of the essay and whether it was within guidelines. A simple "actually no, because ____" would have sufficed. I admit that the statement about the talk page might be an assumption, but I also cannot see a clear reason why the page would be left that way that isn't some form of discouraging discussion. I can't really see the hilarity in making people wait a full minute to load editing, especially if they use visual editor and not just code. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am a participant in the RM and I find EEng's behavior there inappropriate and against community norms. The fact that I and every other editor in the discussion agree with EEng on the merits of the RM is not an excuse for bad behavior. —Myceteae🍄🟫 (talk) 14:05, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The essay in question seems like a clear case that should be kept in WP-space, as well as his other major essay (WP:Diffusing conflict). However, the latter has some content which really should be kept in userspace, such as content which seems to promote his own narrative ("Sometimes people write lengthy posts at WP:ANI, or propose Arbcom cases, or use the images on this page, in hopes of defusing a situation; however, the ensuing drama often means the conflict is diffused instead"). The "guide to appalling blocks" is also something which uninvolved (no, not univalved) editors should take a look at, which in my opinion is too personal to belong in project space. Somepinkdude (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- This thread is about EEng's conduct in the merge proposal, and arrogance over the size of his talk page, so if you want to talk about whether the essay belongs in project-space, you can go over to the talk page of WP:POSA and add to the growing list of opposes. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 17:12, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support formal warning for incivility. Skyshiftertalk 22:39, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The userfy discussion has been snow-closed as not moved: . --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- so, when's the arbcom case? because i can't wait! ltbdl (write) 00:28, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- My terminal will no longer open after viewing that userpage. Please advise. (Talk) PHLOGISTON ENTHUSIAST 03:28, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Turn it off and on again? If that fails, ask Moss to call 0118 999 881 999 119 725... 3. Blue-Sonnet 03:59, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- EEng's talk page has cursed your terminal to eternal crashing? Call an exorcist maybe? ~2026-21916-69 (talk) 17:14, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
- Incivility from "experienced" editors is a bit of an epidemic, it's true. Some recent ArbCom decisions have clearly demonstrated this. Frankly, the kind, non-acrimonious way forward - when whippersnappers with no clue show up making the same old problematic edits to GoodPages(TM), or try shaking up some old traditions like the talk page at issue here (or whatever the hell Bishzilla's pocket is) - is nebulous, at least to me.
- Although the history of incivility is there in this case to an extent, this seems different to me. The fundamental tone and timbre of EEng's comments overall seem much less harsh than those of what I would call the "truly toxic" greybeards. I don't know if it's the self-deprecation, or the fairly sophisticated, quirky humor; perhaps it's because he eschews twee, foppish bons mot when discussing others with his peers. Further, not only do I see a qualitative difference, but a quantitative difference. It's certainly not a good thing to see, but it's not copious either.
- Last, the issues of page moves and giant talk pages are done and dusted. Therefore, I support a SuperTrout, and urge that we move on. Hiobazard (talk/contribs) 13:22, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- Seconded, although I'd prefer if EEng kept the banter for those who would appreciate and understand it most and err on the side of caution with the newbies - that's what I initially thought was happening when I first encountered them!
- My colleagues and I make some pretty rude & extract the urine from each other regularly, but we know to keep it inside the team until we can properly guage the temperament of any new starter.
- That sort of thing is easily amplified on the internet thanks to it being, well, the internet. Strong troutage. Blue-Sonnet 14:45, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
- I can't say I buy the idea that this was all just some poor taste brand of humor. The fly in the ointment is that he was directly informed his words were hurtful and asked to stop insulting people, and continued with it unabated, as can be seen by the timestamps in the messages. He then proceeded to not apologize in the ANI discussion itself, doubling down on him being right and saying he fears nothing.
- I'm also far from a "newbie" and started editing in 2006, and I have never seen that sort of toxicity directed at normal editors outside of vandals who got banned quickly. I don't interact with editors outside of Wikipedia, but I don't think I'd want them to act like that even if I did. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:43, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- That's the problem, isn't it - I guess it would be better to say that it should be limited to those who know EEng and who they know will won't be upset or offended.
- Anyone else should be treated cordially and politely, or at least neutrally, if that makes sense. It's very subjective and I may well have a much higher tolerance for this than others thanks to my father having the same sense of humour. This is just how I honestly feel on the subject - the fact that others don't feel that way is a strong sign that it should be kept within a small circle of those who know EEng well. Blue-Sonnet 10:14, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
Proposal for Admins to set up mandatory archiving on EEng's talkpage
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Obviously this is an unusual request but it's an unusual situation. Frankly EEng's talkpage is fundamentally now unusuable for other users, making it extremely hard to engage with them to the point it has an inhibitive effect on any attempt to do so (whether intentional or not).
Given their user page is also like this I do believe the failure to archive is intentional (though no judgement on their reasoning for that) and while user talk pages are typically left to the discretion of the user themselves they do have an important purpose in several core processes, especially when it comes to disputes on both content and conduct, so therefore think it's gotten to a point where admins should step in and establish archiving on it to maintain the ability of the community as a whole to function. Rambling Rambler (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support as proposer - If I'm struggling to load and navigate it on a powerful gaming CPU and 500mb fibre to the premises connection then it's going to be far worse for both mobile and more basic desktop users. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support per my earlier comments. GiantSnowman 14:03, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose Editors are free to completely delete things from their talk page, with no archiving at all. Just pretend Eeng effectively deletes everything on their talk as soon as it appears, and call it a day Marcus Markup (talk) 14:11, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether user talk page posts are archived or deleted - the issue here is that EEng does nothing about his... GiantSnowman 14:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- EEng's talk page is over one million bytes.
How many words it is is a different question[a], but on low-end devices like the laptop I am using to write this, it takes over a minute to fully load into EEng's talk page, ad 2+ more minutes if I want to post a comment, or edit anything. Sure, that doesn't seem like a lot of time, but for some other low-end devices, EEng's talk page just crashes. - For lively discussions, this can get painful and/or annoying really quick, and as others have said, this huge talk page size certainly does not improve the encyclopedia. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 14:25, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- EEng's talk page is over one million bytes.
- @Marcus Markup I would suggest you've misunderstood this significantly. The issue isn't that they've deleted anything. It's the fact their talk page is currently over 23,000 words long, which if it was an article would justify trimming two times over (WP:SIZERULE) and would be regarded as an example of WP:CHOKING. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:17, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether user talk page posts are archived or deleted - the issue here is that EEng does nothing about his... GiantSnowman 14:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support. I initially commented in this thread because of EEng's poor conduct, but it is clear that archiving their page is paramount to several processes, including 1-on-1 behavior disputes, automatically-sent messages, conduct disputes, and other discussion that would be important for EEng to see/participate in.
See also: this comment from me. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 14:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC) - Support. If EEng was willing or able to do so himself he'd have done so by now. We give users wide discretion over their talk pages. That discretion has limits. Mackensen (talk) 14:34, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment - Well, if you changed their username from EEng to Eng, including HTML changes you would save 13,088 bytes. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:42, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support hampers productivity and it's not "funny". It's perhaps funny for a second and then annoying. grapesurgeon (talk) 15:13, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support I’m struggling to load this with a 12 core cpu and gpu acceleration. This is getting absurd. --Insanityclown1 (talk) 15:28, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The last time this was tried ended up at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2025 December 24#User talk:EEng/Archive 15. That's probably linked somewhere from his talk page, but it crashed my browser the last time I tried to look at it, so I'm not going to bother trying again. —Cryptic 15:31, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- That's a good distillation of Wikipedia bureaucracy; defending EEng's right to not have his talk page archived against his wishes while acknowledging that he needs to archive his talk page. I don't think there was a formal discussion before that archiving took place. Mackensen (talk) 15:51, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support, overdue. I'm surprised we're finally having a discussion about this that actually seems to go into the direction of archiving being set up there, but we finally seem to do. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:59, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
Support: While I'm generally in agreement with editors having broad control over their own talk pages, we routinely slam users at ANI for failure to communicate, down to articlespace blocks until they do so. I don't see any difference between refusing to answer inquiries on one's talk page and intentionally leaving that talk page in a state which deters communication at all. (Yes, I'm aware of the premise that that's not why EEng does it. Who cares? Those newbies drawing articlespace blocks for failure to respond to their talk page warnings probably aren't doing so maliciously either.) Ravenswing 17:07, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- Comment: Withdrawing my support. EEng has cleared out the talk page. This was the outcome we sought all along ... right? Ravenswing 07:55, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support. This has been coming for quite a while.Katzrockso (talk) 18:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment - As a friend of EEng, I must note that he has removed everything from his talk page, although i am not sure if it’s archived. (ThatTrainGuy1945) ~2026-26905-26 (talk) 18:37, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) When I saw this, I was skeptical EEng would do something like that, but it turns out, EEng did remove basically his entire talk page except for the ANI notice that links to here. The latest edit did remove well over one million bytes, but the edits before that were actual archiving.
- @EEng, did you really mean to delete (basically) your entire talk page? Talk pages under 150K bytes can load easily on the vast majority of the devices, so if you want to keep a few dozen threads, then that should be fine. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 18:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- They've done what they've done in the past, dumped everything into a giant archive that is also now oversized and impossible to navigate. For example they now have an "Archive 14" that is a 1,400,000 bytes following an "Archive 13 that is 800,000 and so on.
- Their actions are still them stubbornly refusing to implement a useful archiving system that is functional and with each one kept to an appropriate size that allows users to engage with them. Given they won't set this up themselves this proposal is still relevant, admins need to step in and set it up in a way that doesn't present a de facto disruptive situation. Rambling Rambler (talk) 18:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- But that's a step too far. The purpose of not having a giant talk page is so other editors can communicate with EEng. Suggesting that communicating with him requires being able to easily peruse his archives ... that's reaching. Let's just take the win without seeking another pound of flesh. Ravenswing 02:20, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm going to agree with Ravenswing. The original purpose of this proposal was to request that EEng reduce his talk page to a reasonable size by forcing him to archive it. This seems a little like moving the goalposts here, since he did technically do what was asked of him here, and only that. Additionally, having a massive archive is not disruptive to communication in the same way that having a massive talk page is. I suggest that if you want to force his archive to be cut down, this should be a new discussion. Accessedgrant (Epicgenius mobile alt) (talk) 03:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- But that's a step too far. The purpose of not having a giant talk page is so other editors can communicate with EEng. Suggesting that communicating with him requires being able to easily peruse his archives ... that's reaching. Let's just take the win without seeking another pound of flesh. Ravenswing 02:20, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support I think I've complained about this somewhere in the talk history. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:47, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment - Just to make it extra clear given it led to a premature closing of this discussion, by mandatory archiving I do mean some form of automatic archiving and not leaving it for EEng to yet again grow a massive archive as has happened on the multiple previous occasions this issue has occurred. Currently it only appears EEng has OneClickerArchiver on their talk page which they use exceedingly infrequently (leading to the 1 million byte talk page). Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Reopened I guess we really need more time to work on this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. After y'all got what you wanted, the page was cleaned up, instead of just moving along after you won some of you seemed to really also need their talk page auto archived as well. We had this RFC a few months ago and rejected mandatory archiving. This feels to me like a backdoor attempt to clean up a talk page because folks didn't get what they wanted in the last RFC. The issue was resolved and has nothing to do with the other complaint at hand so I really saw no point to keep going. But there are folks here who I respect (@GiantSnowman, @ToBeFree, @Ravenswing) so maybe I'm just wrong about this which has been known to happen from time to time. Dr vulpes (Talk) 21:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC) Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_210#Introduce_maximum_page_size_and_mandatory_archiving_for_pages_intended_for_user_communication_(accessibility) Dr vulpes (Talk) 21:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hm. I was fine with the cleanup and the closure, thanked EEng for their edit and thought that was it. Yeah, ideally the page should have automatic archiving. The problem has been fixed, though. I'm good. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:38, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry @ToBeFree I didn't mean that in mean or sarcastic way, I read your comment in the original thread as being more for auto archiving and used that as part of the reason to reopen. Dr vulpes (Talk) 21:42, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ah, no, all good and correct; I am indeed more for auto archiving. I just wanted to clarify that I personally wouldn't have complained about the closure. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:10, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry @ToBeFree I didn't mean that in mean or sarcastic way, I read your comment in the original thread as being more for auto archiving and used that as part of the reason to reopen. Dr vulpes (Talk) 21:42, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Honestly, I don't think that is a fair characterization of the community concerns here, Vulpes. Although I was not the first to raise the issue in this thread, it certainly looks as if my comment may have been the one the really kicked things off and spurred the ultimate proposal, and I can assure you I was unaware of that RfC. In any event, the situation being considered here is pretty narrow and distinct from that discussion, which seems to have failed for a number of structural flaws in the proposal which caused respondents to view it as overbroad and cumbersome. Indeed, to the extent that Eeng's name even came up at that discussion, it was largely in the context of other editors saying "we don't need a full WP:BURO rule on this; just make Eeng clean up their page." So the suggestion that the solution proposed here is out of sync with the consensus of that previous discussion does not hold water to my eye. And even if there was a direct conflict, consensus can change, and the current discussion is of similar, if nor larger, level of community input. Now, all that said, I probably would have been fine with your close, if only to let this discussion return to its core inquiry. But I do respect the position of others who don't want to endorse a band-aid/kick the can down the road approach here: EEng has made these temporary stop-gap measures before, only to let the situation organically revive itself a couple of years later. At this point, the amount of community energy and time that has been expended on this issue over the years is so astronomically out-of-proportion to the amount of effort being requested of EEng (which is truly trivial) that I can see the argument for nipping this in the bud once and for all in favour of a stable longterm solution, even in light of EEng's tacit concession via the deletion of the current content. SnowRise let's rap 04:40, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hm. I was fine with the cleanup and the closure, thanked EEng for their edit and thought that was it. Yeah, ideally the page should have automatic archiving. The problem has been fixed, though. I'm good. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:38, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support. Joke not funny, especially for people that have metered connection. ~2026-21916-69 (talk) 18:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose. Yes, there are a lot of folks from the peanut gallery piling on here, but the fact is, the community has a consensus about enforcing user talk page lengths, and I don't think anyone has linked to it yet. It's here, and it's pretty recent: Wikipedia talk:Talk page guidelines/Archive 17#RFC: Recommended maximum talk page size. So any admin who actually acts on this proposal is going to have a lot of explaining to do, and that will include having made themselves a personal enemy of me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The only reason why this proposal exists, is due to the talk page crashing the tabs on certain people's devices. It also lags heavily on others, including mine. This does cause an issue for people who want to use the talk page, since people really can't start a conversation if it takes 2 minutes just to post a new topic/reply. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 21:19, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Nothing about this discussion would go against that RfC as far as I can see, which only removed a specified prescriptive talk page size from the guidance. The guidance however still contains the clause under WP:TALKSIZE "large talk pages are difficult to read and load slowly over slow connections. As a rule of thumb, archive closed discussions when a talk page has numerous resolved or stale discussions".
- The talk page this morning had 303 separate sections, which included dozens of images, almost all of them which could be classified as resolved/stale. All of this makes that page barely functional for many users, so is still going against the guidelines we have. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:28, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The question isn't whether or not it would be a good idea for EEng to do more archiving. It's whether there is a basis in existing community consensus for admins to enforce it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- There is no community consensus for a "one size fits all" solution. But clearly there is consensus in the RfC both yourself and vulpes have posted that there is an issue of talk pages growing too large as to cause problems, that editors are very much encouraged to keep them within reasonable sizes, and this thread (following several others on the same issue) show that in the specific case of EEng and their talk page habits that the community has grown increasingly tired and frustrated with it. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: An admin who acts on the clear consensus in this discussion will have no explaining to do, beyond pointing to the clear consensus in this discussion. There are all sorts of things that we don't do in general that we do per consensus in a discussion on this noticeboard addressing a particular issue with a particular editor. To suggest that an admin will have "made themselves a personal enemy" due to the resolution of something that has been identified as technically disruptive is not conducive to the orderly operations of an encyclopedia. BD2412 T 23:21, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- You are still focusing on this, after EEng has already archived so much of his talk? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am focused on the principle of talk pages serving the purpose of building the encyclopedia. How does it make sense to say that wanting to make a talk page reasonably-sized will make someone your enemy? As it happens, I wrote the article, Enemy. You should read it to the end. BD2412 T 00:02, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for writing that article. I wrote (among many other things) WP:KNIT. Wanting to make a talk page smaller doesn't make anyone my enemy. EEng made his much smaller today, and I don't hold that against him. Admins make enemies all the time. I'm just being honest when I say that an admin who uses the tools in a way that, demonstrably now, was never necessary, would be doing something that would upset me (and I bet 24 other extended confirmed editors would agree). --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I am focused on the principle of talk pages serving the purpose of building the encyclopedia. How does it make sense to say that wanting to make a talk page reasonably-sized will make someone your enemy? As it happens, I wrote the article, Enemy. You should read it to the end. BD2412 T 00:02, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- You are still focusing on this, after EEng has already archived so much of his talk? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The question isn't whether or not it would be a good idea for EEng to do more archiving. It's whether there is a basis in existing community consensus for admins to enforce it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
"So any admin who actually acts on this proposal is going to have a lot of explaining to do, and that will include having made themselves a personal enemy of me."
- Tryptofish, I find this to be a very inappropriate thing to say, especially in a discussion already wrought with so much friction. I'm not a fan of what we've done here with EEng's talk page either, but regardless of what the matter at hand is, you should not be tussling with an uninvolved admin only tasked with correctly implementing a clear consensus. It reads as intimidation, which is very much not productive in a collaborative project. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 00:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- And what I find inappropriate is having an ANI drama over something where admin intervention is not needed, and continuing the drama after the original problems have already been solved. Nothing collaborative about this. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:48, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- You are way out of line and that's as blatant a threat of retribution for taking an action as I have seen. I suggest you withdraw it and if I see any evidence that you are actually following through as opposed to saying it haste then I'm going take action of my own. And that's a promise not a threat Spartaz Humbug! 10:13, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It is foolish if sarcastic and asinine if serious to declare that going against your opinion will make someone a personal enemy in a collaborative encylopaedia. DatGuyTalkContribs 13:27, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- And what I find inappropriate is having an ANI drama over something where admin intervention is not needed, and continuing the drama after the original problems have already been solved. Nothing collaborative about this. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:48, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support While keeping talk pages small is mostly a courtesy suggestion, there is a point where the size becomes disruptive and falls under being actively hostile to attempts to communicate from other editors, especially ones without a great computer or Internet. People may not agree on what this point is, but it's clear that this talk page surpasses it many times over.
Re: the oppose comment above, I'm not sure threatening to become someone's "personal enemy" is very civil, regardless of how the discussion turns out. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:21, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- And to clarify, since the talk page was apparently blanked, this will likely happen again in the future if there is not some sensible archiving solution imposed. It should not just be reactionary every time the talk page grows to an unmanageable size, spending many hours of editors time debating this. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I stand by what I said about admins, so please feel free to open a separate complaint about me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- And to clarify, since the talk page was apparently blanked, this will likely happen again in the future if there is not some sensible archiving solution imposed. It should not just be reactionary every time the talk page grows to an unmanageable size, spending many hours of editors time debating this. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support The talk page definitely needs to have mandatory archiving, as it took me a while just to load the whole page. Just moving all the comments to a single archive does not fix the issue. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 21:24, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I would have opposed if I didn't notice how long it took on the hardware I was using, but it still is slow even on Archive 14 sadly. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 00:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment Also for anybody with some more knowledge than me of the MediaWiki software, I get notifications for this topic. I see that it is notifying me about 25 replies, but it shows a whooping 98 notifications for zero reason. I don't understand that. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 14:17, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- known bug, see phab:T317365 ltbdl (call) 14:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Did not even realize that is a bug that just exists. I'll have to take a look into that. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 14:27, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Have you accidentally clicked 'subscribe' or similar? GiantSnowman 14:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- When I commented my support, I have it set up to automatically subscribe the thread, as that was the default. Apparently, which I didn't realize, there is a bug that causes this somehow. I'll need to look into that bug, as that is very weird behavior, and it has existed for 4 years. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 14:28, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- known bug, see phab:T317365 ltbdl (call) 14:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment Also for anybody with some more knowledge than me of the MediaWiki software, I get notifications for this topic. I see that it is notifying me about 25 replies, but it shows a whooping 98 notifications for zero reason. I don't understand that. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 14:17, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I would have opposed if I didn't notice how long it took on the hardware I was using, but it still is slow even on Archive 14 sadly. SuperJames888 (Talk to me) 00:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support some form of archiving or blanking, whichever Eeng prefers. This unfortunately has to be a community decision now; when this was brought up last December, User:Tryptofish threatened to start a WP:RECALL on admins trying to deal with this; combined with the comments about
personal enemy
comments made above, and, with all respect to User:Dr vulpes's original close, there has to be a community decision here. (I brought up my concerns with Tryptofish about this at the time, but didn't get any resolution, unfortunately). So there's a few issues: Eeng's talkpage is hard to load/navigate. We can't control Mediawiki loading magic, we can't control what computers people are on. We can ask Eeng to keep his talkpage at a reasonable size. I don't think that's unreasonable. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 21:42, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- I want to be clear that I was not referring to Dr vulpes, and it's difficult to keep track of everything in this discussion. Yes, you and I had a discussion about this, but it didn't get the resolution that you wanted, apparently. I never intended for you to take that personally, and it saddens me that you did. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- If it helps, I didn't take it personally, so there's no need for you to feel sad. And I know you weren't referring to Dr. Vulpes, given that he wasn't involved at the time of the initial WP:RECALL threats. The broad nature of those threats is what concerns me here, however, combined with the doubling down with the declaration about becoming your
personal enemy
. I know you and Eeng are close friends, so I get why you'd feel protective, but I think it might be time to let the community deal with this, without threats. Thanks. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 21:54, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- I'm disappointed to see you tripling down on your threat to start a recall petition against any admin who acts against your friend's long-running disruptive behaviour, @Tryptofish. This isn't collaborative; it's closer to coercion. Could you please consider retracting those threats? GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 00:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- You mischaracterize. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC) Adding: It's not about defending my friend, but about understanding that this would be an inappropriate application of administrative tools. I could make a case that your describing it as being like WP:LTA is a WP:NPA. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:52, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish If you believe anything I've said is a personal attack, or if you sincerely believe that I am comparing you to a long-term abuser, then you're welcome to start a new AN/I thread. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 00:55, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sigh, the LTA reference wasn't about me, it was about EEng, where you said "long-running disruptive behaviour". I have no intention of starting anything about you, and I don't know what to say about all the people who seem hell-bent on starting something about what I said. In my opinion, we are far past the time when everyone here needs to calm down, and move on. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:02, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish Ah, that's what you were talking about! No, I didn't call him an LTA either. Disruptive behavior, as we define it here, is very different from abuse.
- And to your second point --oh, I agree! I especially agree with Vanamonde93's point above that this is
silly
. But, again, with threats of recall running around, that's forcing my hand and making me !vote. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with his userpage, but a talkpage has to remain usable. You've now, three times, threatened to recall an admin if they do anything to keep an editor's talkpage usable. That's not calming the situtation down, that's not moving on - that's making threats. That's coercive. That's escalatory. And therefore, I will !vote that Eeng actually has to keep his talkpage usable. He can chose to end this, anytime he wants, by agreeing to do that. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 01:17, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sigh, the LTA reference wasn't about me, it was about EEng, where you said "long-running disruptive behaviour". I have no intention of starting anything about you, and I don't know what to say about all the people who seem hell-bent on starting something about what I said. In my opinion, we are far past the time when everyone here needs to calm down, and move on. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:02, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish If you believe anything I've said is a personal attack, or if you sincerely believe that I am comparing you to a long-term abuser, then you're welcome to start a new AN/I thread. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 00:55, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- You mischaracterize. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC) Adding: It's not about defending my friend, but about understanding that this would be an inappropriate application of administrative tools. I could make a case that your describing it as being like WP:LTA is a WP:NPA. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:52, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm disappointed to see you tripling down on your threat to start a recall petition against any admin who acts against your friend's long-running disruptive behaviour, @Tryptofish. This isn't collaborative; it's closer to coercion. Could you please consider retracting those threats? GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 00:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- This is one hell of a hill to die on. Mackensen (talk) 22:03, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- If it helps, I didn't take it personally, so there's no need for you to feel sad. And I know you weren't referring to Dr. Vulpes, given that he wasn't involved at the time of the initial WP:RECALL threats. The broad nature of those threats is what concerns me here, however, combined with the doubling down with the declaration about becoming your
- I do believe "any admins whoblock here will be my enemy" and the (previous) threats of recall are entirely against the spirit of collaboration we wish to foster here; I encourage Tryptofish to reconsider. Consensus can change, and this discussion does not mean that we are going against a previous RFC which was merely against the creating of a rule on maximum sizes for all users. CoconutOctopus talk 21:55, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- So now we have one editor talking about dying on a hill, and another about blocking (when I was referring to a proposal to set up mandatory archiving, but perhaps mandatory means blocking if it doesn't happen?). My perspective is that this ANI thread is not doing anyone any good. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I want to be clear that I was not referring to Dr vulpes, and it's difficult to keep track of everything in this discussion. Yes, you and I had a discussion about this, but it didn't get the resolution that you wanted, apparently. I never intended for you to take that personally, and it saddens me that you did. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose. Editors should be free to make their talk pages human-only no-bot zones, and archive them as they please. 1Mb is tiny; it's the size of a 40-year-old floppy disk. If your software can't handle it, then it's the software that's the problem. And if you can't handle your software being slow, and react by lashing out at anyone nearby who demonstrates how bad your software is, then... —David Eppstein (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- 1 Mb is about 1/4 of the Bible. Printed on normal paper and in well-readable size, it's a pretty big book. Are you aware how much text 1 Mb is? It's an amount of text manageable for discussion purposes mostly because tables of contents and the browser's search function exist. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Let me guess: You read talk pages by printing them out on paper and binding them into books? —David Eppstein (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oh sorry, I was unaware that you read them from floppy disks. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:28, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- ..Is this supposed to be a personal attack, a joke comment, a comdemnation, or..?
- Doesn't seem like it cools this discussion down at all. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 22:30, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's okay with me; I think the idea is that the comparison is irrelevant because talk pages are not books. But that's not my point. We're forcing people to obtain, scroll through / deal with, and then send, an amount of irrelevant text the size of 1/4 of the Bible with every single message from or to the user. That 1/4 of the bible in plain text also happens to fit on a floppy disk is a bit of a strawman argument. It addresses software performance as far as "40-year-old hardware was able to read this amount of data and only took 30 seconds for the data transfer" but that's about it. The purpose of my book-of-text comparison was to show which crazy amount of text we're actually talking about, on a human eyes dealing with text scale. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's still a bogus comparison, because any reasonable person would either page-down immediately to the bottom or run a search for the thread they're looking for. Nobody's forcing you to read it line by line. And sending a megabyte per transaction is by today's standards tiny. The background image on your user page is four times as big. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Y'all are surely both aware the byte-size of the page doesn't matter; an editor has to download far more data to use the page. I am working off of a 2024 laptop and high-speed wifi. Most user talk pages (yours, mine, TBFs) load completely in 2-3 seconds. ANI takes 6 seconds. The pre-archival version of EEng's page took close to 40 seconds. The bottom of the page wasn't readable before that time. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Like I said, bad software. If downloading a page expands it by a large enough factor to be noticeable, something is seriously wrong. Get mad at the software developers, not the messenger. But I just tried looking again at the pre-archival version of EEng's page, as downloaded rather than as stored in wiki-text: it's less than 5Mb long, still something that should be instantaneous for anyone with a connection capable of viewing video content. It does take me roughly 5 seconds to load it; I think all of that delay is on the Wikimedia side. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Converting the wikitext to HTML takes time; converting HTML to pixels takes time. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:03, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- And having so many people put some much into WP:CESSPIT (I don't mean you, personally), takes time too. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:06, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- hah
fair point. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:08, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- hah
- And having so many people put some much into WP:CESSPIT (I don't mean you, personally), takes time too. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:06, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Converting the wikitext to HTML takes time; converting HTML to pixels takes time. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:03, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Like I said, bad software. If downloading a page expands it by a large enough factor to be noticeable, something is seriously wrong. Get mad at the software developers, not the messenger. But I just tried looking again at the pre-archival version of EEng's page, as downloaded rather than as stored in wiki-text: it's less than 5Mb long, still something that should be instantaneous for anyone with a connection capable of viewing video content. It does take me roughly 5 seconds to load it; I think all of that delay is on the Wikimedia side. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:22, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- The background image on my user page is 2 kilobytes of text and fits on the back of a t-shirt!! ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Y'all are surely both aware the byte-size of the page doesn't matter; an editor has to download far more data to use the page. I am working off of a 2024 laptop and high-speed wifi. Most user talk pages (yours, mine, TBFs) load completely in 2-3 seconds. ANI takes 6 seconds. The pre-archival version of EEng's page took close to 40 seconds. The bottom of the page wasn't readable before that time. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's still a bogus comparison, because any reasonable person would either page-down immediately to the bottom or run a search for the thread they're looking for. Nobody's forcing you to read it line by line. And sending a megabyte per transaction is by today's standards tiny. The background image on your user page is four times as big. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- It's okay with me; I think the idea is that the comparison is irrelevant because talk pages are not books. But that's not my point. We're forcing people to obtain, scroll through / deal with, and then send, an amount of irrelevant text the size of 1/4 of the Bible with every single message from or to the user. That 1/4 of the bible in plain text also happens to fit on a floppy disk is a bit of a strawman argument. It addresses software performance as far as "40-year-old hardware was able to read this amount of data and only took 30 seconds for the data transfer" but that's about it. The purpose of my book-of-text comparison was to show which crazy amount of text we're actually talking about, on a human eyes dealing with text scale. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- (For @David Eppstein & @ToBeFree mostly)
- I spent way too long making a huge page, but if you think one million bytes of text isn't an awful lot, than see this!
- It trancludes text from 2 policies and one really long article (Tartan), but half-way through I gave up due to how long one million bytes is, so I started copy & pasting things, including the {{Lorem ipsum}} template.
- So yeah, if you can load EEng's former talk page with ease, then I would reccomend to be greatful that your device is so mighteous. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 22:59, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Let me guess: You read talk pages by printing them out on paper and binding them into books? —David Eppstein (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- We have plenty of users saying their modern computers and browsers struggled to handle it to the point it made posting there difficult and time-consuming. It's neat that you own a supercomputer array, but saying it isn't a problem because of your personal experience is not helpful. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 22:38, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not saying it isn't a problem for you. I'm saying that you're a victim of unnecessarily bad software and are lashing out at another victim of bad software when you should be mad at the software developers who didn't prioritize making it run well. Maybe instead of lashing out you could put more thought into whether your own attempts to punish people for not fitting into the limits of the software might be enabling the software developers to continue to give you bad software. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein
lashing out
I fear language like that, ascribing somebody's request for somebody to archive their talkpage, to a heated emotional response, is unnecessarily personalizing everything. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 01:19, 4 May 2026 (UTC)- This ANI thread *is* the heated emotional response. You and I are both in it. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein If anybody, including yourself, is feeling emotional, I'd recommend taking a step back. However, I have to disagree with your claim that this AN/I thread is, inherently, a "heated emotional response". GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 02:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- This ANI thread *is* the heated emotional response. You and I are both in it. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Most developers wouldn't prioritize dealing with a problem that manifests on a single non-public page, especially when mitigations (archiving the page) are available. If the much-maligned Foundation threw resources at the issue we'd probably all yell at them. Mackensen (talk) 01:21, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yell things like "why are you making long pages load less slowly and taking away our excuse for getting mad at EEng"? —David Eppstein (talk) 02:19, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein
- Again, I'm not saying it isn't a problem for you. I'm saying that you're a victim of unnecessarily bad software and are lashing out at another victim of bad software when you should be mad at the software developers who didn't prioritize making it run well. Maybe instead of lashing out you could put more thought into whether your own attempts to punish people for not fitting into the limits of the software might be enabling the software developers to continue to give you bad software. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- My intent is not cause personal offense with this observation, David, but I also can't find a softer way to put this that makes the point effectively: your perspectives above betray a pretty massive lack of understanding of the technical considerations implicated by this situation. Bluntly:
"1 MB of data is not a problem, because that is the size of a floppy disk from the 80s"
is a frankly asinine and nonsensical non-sequitor of an argument, and is going to be seen as such by anyone who has even the most basic understanding of how a browser renders paged content. 1 MB is more than sufficient size to create significant performance issues and crashes for a majority of end-users, depending on the technical particulars of the platform and use case, and this is clearly one of those situations. Your further "This could only be an issue for people with very weaksauce 'software' [whatever this vague label is meant to imply]" is problematic hand-waving of the problem for at least two reasons:- 1) It's wild speculation based on your personal experience and apparently nothing else. In fact, it runs directly counter to the evidence we do have from dozens of editors over the years reporting major issues with trying to interact with Eeng's page. Speaking for myself, I too tend to work from fairly high end hardware and from a variety of mainstream OS, including presently Windows 11, various linux distros, MacOS, iOS, and Android. And while I couldn't tell you with certainty which particular system spec and platform combinations I have used to view EEng's page, I can tell you that every time I have tried, it has been an absolute chore. I have absolutely no doubt that the reports of crashes, bugs and mind-numbing TTI load times are sincere--and indeed, what possible reason would all of these various users have to make any of that up?
- Bluntly, your peculiar analogies, the vague language you use to treat these highly technical issues, and your defaulting to an assumption that your own idiosyncratic experience of the page must be the typical experience, all combine to paint a picture of your technical acumen on these topics as being at a certain level where your opinion--on the likely technical headaches others are experiencing--can be safely discarded. Again, not meaning to be harsh and offensive with this analysis, but if you wade into a situation like this throwing around the implication that others are complaining only because they have uniquely crap systems or software, and even stating that they are misdirecting their anger out of ignorance, you should be bringing a much stronger and more technically competent argument than you have here.
- And, 2) Even if one had to have a particularly under-performing system or contextual software profile in order for them to have an issue loading EEng's page (which, again, is clearly not the case here), then that still would not necessarily be the end of the analysis. The entire infrastructure of this site and this project is expressly built on adapting the platform (both as regards our forward facing systems and our editorial work spaces) towards optimized accessibility and inclusivity. So even if we did accept your premise that all of the people having issues with EEng's pages are having them because of under-performing hardware or software (again, a wild presumption you seem to have adopted ex nihilo, aside from your personal experience), we would still probably want to require EEng (or any user) to adopt a standard for a maximum page size where the incredibly minimal amount of effort on their part is dwarfed by the amount of trouble it would save a much larger number of editors who have to provide notice or communications on that page.
- To say nothing of the time it would save this community in not having to have this discussion every 1-3 years... SnowRise let's rap 05:40, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Goodness, SnowRise. You have such a habit of saying things I could never have said better myself. +2. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 05:49, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Agreed, I've tried loading the old page on a relatives snazzy new phone and still had issues - the problem isn't necessarily the 1Mb, it's the fact that it's all on the same page.
- Someone's Talk page shouldn't be restricted to those who have a high-end PC, but to the maximum number of viewers possible (within reason, of course). Wikipedia is designed for use on phones and they're are plenty of mobile editors out there - especially now computers are so freaking expensive (I hate AI so much).
- If I tried to use my phone to look at all the data contained on a floppy disk at once, I'd expect it to play up a bit. I wouldn't expect the same thing to happen whilst reading a Wikipedia Talk page. Blue-Sonnet 05:58, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, to use that charming American idiom: I get a little wood on the ball now and again. ;) SnowRise let's rap 05:58, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hahaha! What MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 06:01, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Goodness, SnowRise. You have such a habit of saying things I could never have said better myself. +2. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 05:49, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- 1 Mb is about 1/4 of the Bible. Printed on normal paper and in well-readable size, it's a pretty big book. Are you aware how much text 1 Mb is? It's an amount of text manageable for discussion purposes mostly because tables of contents and the browser's search function exist. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support requiring a usable talk page. I don't particularly care how EEng or anyone else makes it usable. Maintaining a talk page editors struggle to open is as disruptive as ignoring talk page messages, and we routinely block for that. Previous discussions have failed to reach a consensus on archival sizes: that does not preclude future consensus and certainly does not preclude requiring archival from a single user. Requiring community consensus is silly, but we wouldn't be here if EEng (and I say this without personal rancor; I like what he brings to en.wiki) had not thumbed his nose at all previous polite and less polite requests on the subject. Tryptofish, I am surprised you feel the need to oppose a proposal to prevent user talk pages from crashing browsers. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:26, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Well, while I've been busy here responding to other comments, and other editors have been busy here opining that EEng is a malicious actor who is thumbing his nose at the community, it turns out that EEng has actually been busy responding to the community's concerns, which I only just now got around to seeing: , , , , , , , , , , , , , . But I don't want to spoil anybody's fun, complaining that EEng never archives anything and doesn't care what the community thinks, so please don't mind me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Only manually archiving their talk page (a temporary solution) after what the third ANI, probably sixth community discussion, in two years hardly counts as a solution. Katzrockso (talk) 22:46, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Really don't know why you've decided to post every single individual diff of them archiving today after this opened as evidence against the issue of them only appearing to archive their frustratingly excessive talkpages after the community has enough and opens a thread about it.
- The fact they could've done this at any point before it reached such a ludicrous length just highlights the problem people are tired of.
- Also really don't understand the exceedingly confrontational, almost flagrantly hostile tone you keep taking in your responses. Rambling Rambler (talk) 22:46, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Whereas everyone else is being so calm and collected. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- I mean, they are? Mackensen (talk) 00:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- ? --Tryptofish (talk) 00:54, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I mean, they are? Mackensen (talk) 00:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Whereas everyone else is being so calm and collected. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose I particularly enjoyed the complaint that an oppose ivote was a vote in favour of crashing reader's browsers. Comedy gold that one. Perhaps a more robust browser could be employed??? - Walter Still not in the Epstein Files Ego 22:51, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Didn't you know, everyone who feels like WP:KNIT wants to crash browsers? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- People here wanted EEng to reduce the size of their talk page. EEng did so. That wasn’t enough for us though, now we need to make an example of them as punishment and create a new policy by the backdoor where miscreants will have their talk pages autoarchived whether they like it or not because… well, the mob has talked themselves into this being a good idea. What a waste of time and energy. • a frantic turtle 🐢 23:13, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Support as a general principle, while recognizing that the editor's actions may have effected the outcome without need of further action. Wikipedia is not a social media site, or a personal blog, or whatever. It is a project to build a general purpose encyclopedia. Anything, including an excessive user talk page size, that is not conducive to building a general purpose encyclopedia, should be remediated. BD2412 T 23:25, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- What the dink happened? Yes, EEng's talk page needed to be tended to. It needed to be tended to badly. It did not need to be tended to immediately. I proposed above that we should give EEng a deadline to either commit to some manual or automatic archiving or else we set up the archiving forcefully, to give EEng time to think about how to trim down his own talk page. I have to say, I'm sad that this less combative proposal was not considered and that it's now too late for it to gain any traction, or do any good. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 00:11, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, this is what happens at ANI. People get way too worked up with indignation over something, where taking a bit of time to catch one's breath would make the problem appear a lot less urgent than it did, but something that could be solved pretty easily ends up being over-magnified. It's worth remembering, all of this started with three comments EEng made, that were more confrontational and personal than they should have been, but were hardly the end of the world, at a misguided requested move that has been snow-closed as not done. In things like this, Wikipedia becomes the internet at its worst, or pretty close. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:26, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, pretty much. I note that at one point the MilHistBot had occasion to post to his talk page, to confer a WikiProject Military History award for reviewing. The MilHistBot downloaded the entire page, added a new section, and uploaded again, all without any problem. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:32, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I don't get the relevance of what the bot did. Bots probably aren't even rendering the page which is likely where the problem is coming from. Also if a bot takes even 10 minutes to do this, it probably isn't a big deal if the bot is well decides, it's not something the operator would generally even have to worry about. But taking even 1 minutes is clearly problematic for regular editors who's time can be limited. Nil Einne (talk) 08:13, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, pretty much. I note that at one point the MilHistBot had occasion to post to his talk page, to confer a WikiProject Military History award for reviewing. The MilHistBot downloaded the entire page, added a new section, and uploaded again, all without any problem. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:32, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @MEN KISSING just so you're aware, this.... isn't a new issue. Eeng's reluctance to keep his talkpage usable has been something that lots of people have asked him to do before -- this just one AN/I thread I remember. From 2024. He's had two years, at least, to think about how to do that. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🧸 02:31, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm aware of this, yes. I don't think you can get that long of a talk page without having several editors personally request that you trim down your talk page. I do find it improper to not archive things if several editors are asking you to, however ultimately I think that an editor should be allowed to do what they want with their own talk page, but only within reason. EEng's choice not to archive things was no longer within reason.
- I have some hesitant sympathy for EEng, though. And I don't think the fact that we've just had to tell him off for incivility should factor at all into the decision of what to do about his talk page. Giving him a grace period to trim up his talk page the way that he wants to feels sensible. MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 03:15, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yeah, this is what happens at ANI. People get way too worked up with indignation over something, where taking a bit of time to catch one's breath would make the problem appear a lot less urgent than it did, but something that could be solved pretty easily ends up being over-magnified. It's worth remembering, all of this started with three comments EEng made, that were more confrontational and personal than they should have been, but were hardly the end of the world, at a misguided requested move that has been snow-closed as not done. In things like this, Wikipedia becomes the internet at its worst, or pretty close. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:26, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose, a man's talk page is his castle. For the admins to take control of a users talk page reminds me of a nation who would limit personal control for the sake of conformity. Wikipedia is better than this, and so is Anne Hathaway, both of them. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:16, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The neat thing about homes is that people own them and therefore can do whatever they want in them. People do not own their talk pages or any content they contribute to the encyclopedia, however. One is free to make their personal website as long and browser slowing as they please. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:19, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- While the situation now seems to be moot, to quote from WP:UP:
User pages are for communication and collaboration. While considerable leeway is allowed in personalizing and managing your user pages, they are community project pages, not a personal website, blog, social networking medium, or a Wikipedia article. They should be used to better participate in the community ... Wikipedia policies concerning the content of pages can and generally do apply to user pages, and users must observe these policies.
They're not, and never have been, our personal domains where we can do whatever we like; how many ANI threads, for instance, have concerned editors with offensive userboxes, or seeking TPAs? Demonstrably the community has some say here, however limited that scope should be. Ravenswing 02:28, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Agreed. We wanted the talk page trimmed. He did so. That should be the end of it, and outright scalp-hunting is a severe overreaction. Ravenswing 02:30, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose: WP:OWNTALK provides no support for the proposed action. TarnishedPathtalk 02:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- OWNTALK is a guideline, and doesn't address situation because editors don't do this with their user pages. There are parts that I think cut against your position. First, "
User talk pages must serve their primary purpose, which is to make communication and collaboration among editors easier. Editors who refuse to use their talk page for these purposes are violating the spirit of the talk page guidelines, and are not acting collaboratively.
" A very large talk page does not do this. Second, "Although archiving is preferred, users may freely remove comments from their own talk pages. Users may also remove some content in archiving
" clearly contemplates that talk pages aren't endless. - The defense of EEng amounts to, "how dare you tell him what to do with his talk page" and never, "what he's doing is of benefit to the encyclopedia and we should support him for these reasons." Hence all the overheated language about scalping and a pound of flesh and so on. When the law and facts aren't on your side you pound on the table. It doesn't do EEng any favors. Mackensen (talk) 03:02, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The guideline explicitly states "
The length of user talk pages, and the need for archiving, is left up to each editor's own discretion
". - Notably, EEng's user talk is now quite manageable. TarnishedPathtalk 03:24, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The guideline explicitly states "
- OWNTALK is a guideline, and doesn't address situation because editors don't do this with their user pages. There are parts that I think cut against your position. First, "
- Support: While users have a broad latitude in determining how their talkpages are ordered, EEng's talkpage actively causes issues to whoever peruses it. Furthermore, I hope that mandatory archiving, particularly under these circumstances will succeed where blocks routinely fail and get them to respect others. MetalBreaksAndBends (talk) 02:52, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Not sure if it's been mentioned but EEng already archived his talk page on his own accord. Perhaps this should be closed. (Or maybe not, if there's appetite for a formal restriction on his talk page being over a certain size. I don't know, but a lot of the comments above were in support of the general act of archiving.) – Epicgenius (talk) 03:07, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, I see there is some discussion above about whether or not to force him to implement auto archiving, so I'll leave this open. Accessedgrant (Epicgenius mobile alt) (talk) 03:26, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- What? One of the archiving bots can archive at a max size (500k or whatever that should be) and otherwise leave the talk page alone. Why the talk about an ultimatum? Also, if an upper limit needs to be standard practice, it should be in the guideline. Before I start a discussion there, what type of device, operating system, web browser, Wikipedia skin, and internet connection are people using where the page fails? I intentionally tested the giant old version of his page on two older laptops. Both were able to open the talk page even though one laptop is too old for Windows 11 and the other is almost obsolete:
- Linux Mint/64-bit/20 GB Ram/Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6600U CPU @ 2.60GHz/Default desktop skin
- Mozilla Firefox (Gecko): 8 seconds
- Google Chrome (blink): 7 seconds
- GNOME Web (Webkit GTK): 9 seconds
- Pale Moon (Goanna): 14 seconds
- Servo (Servo): 32 seconds
- Antix Linux/32-bit/1 GB Ram/Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2600 @1.680GHz/Default desktop skin
- Mozilla Fireffox ESR (Gecko): 33 seconds
- Links (thoughts and prayers): 10 seconds
- (Chrome's blink and Safari's webkit aren't supported on 32-bit CPUs)
- I'm assuming it's folks on mobile that have the issue? If so, we could come up with some type of addition to the guideline that imposes a max size on a talk page. Do people who have had the issue know at what point a Wikipedia talk page fails (100k? 200k? 500k? Higher?). Rjjiii (talk) 04:08, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The mobile app is shit for anything more than the simplest of talk page discussions. If that is where people were having problems then, EEng's user talk wouldn't have been the only place they'd have issues. TarnishedPathtalk 04:16, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- AFAICT no one but you has said anything about apps, everyone else including those reporting problems have referred to browsers. Nil Einne (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for this - I'm on mobile browser, not using the app. I haven't had this issue anywhere else in the 8yrs I've been editing Wikipedia on mobile. Blue-Sonnet 06:52, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Looking a bit more, some did just mention mobile devices without mentioning browsers. But I still see no reason to think app use is a significant factor here. The reality everyone include the WMF agrees the apps are focused on reading so I doubt many experiences editors use them much for editing especially not those who hang out at ANI. Nil Einne (talk) 08:09, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- There's no problem editing on mobile, it's the mobile skin that is useless. In general you'll start seeing comments about issues once a talk page gets bigger than 500kish, but some people have issues before then. The issue is Wikipedia related, maybe it's formatting, or how pages are constructed, or how editing them is handled, but it's cross browser and doesn't appear to be such an issue on other sites with similar sized pages. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:09, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- AFAICT no one but you has said anything about apps, everyone else including those reporting problems have referred to browsers. Nil Einne (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- If anyone wants to put test pages together I'll be happy to see how my current phone holds up - it's a Moto g05 so it's definitely on the lower end of what most people use. Blue-Sonnet 06:55, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet: Here is the list of longest talk pages sorted by most bytes in length: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_reports/Long_pages/User_talk Rjjiii (talk) 06:57, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- So I'm checking this in a newer phone than the one I had when I last visited EEng's Talk page. I didn't go back since I had so many problems originally & just didn't need to revisit recently.
- This was interesting - the top one took 20 seconds to open and another 10-15 to display. Thankfully, mobile view automatically collapsed headers so it's not too demanding on the system.
- On desktop view, it took 25 seconds to open and just over thirty to get to the bottom of the page (lots of sticking & freezing, but it eventually got there). Same results with the next largest page.
- Maybe mobile isn't a good comparison since mobile view is already optimised? It would also depend on whether there are any images - the pages I checked didn't seem to have many of those.
- That said, my phone is now playing up a bit on this page so I'm going to clear my cache. Blue-Sonnet 07:14, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Quick update - tried EEng's page before archival & it took 40secs to load 20secs of a locked-up screen and 20 secs to scroll down to the bottom on mobile view. I could try desktop view but I'm a tad scared at what'll happen - I'll do it if anyone really wants me to try. Blue-Sonnet 07:19, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Try it! MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 07:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Will you buy me a new phone first ^_^ Blue-Sonnet 07:59, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Are you sure that it's a new 'phone you need, rather than a new attention span? Phil Bridger (talk) 08:39, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Will you buy me a new phone first ^_^ Blue-Sonnet 07:59, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I appreciate you looking into it. Also, I should have said for clarity my times were all the time to load the page, display it, and for the browser to scroll to the bottom of the page. Rjjiii (talk) 07:25, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Also, I tried the giant version of EEng's page on an iPhone 6s (from circa 2015). Mobile version took about 24 seconds to load, display, and reach the bottom. Desktop version on the iPhone took about 30 seconds to load, display, and reach the bottom. Both times, there were points where I just had a blank, unresponsive white screen, so someone expecting a talk page to load fairly quickly (and not intentionally testing a slow one) may have thought that it was broken before enough time passed for the page to load. Rjjiii (talk) 08:05, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Testing of this page is complete!
- On Desktop view it was 20secs to load, ten secs of white screen and 45 secs to get to the bottom of the page (plenty of images needed to load). I'm glad to say that my phone didn't melt!
- Mobile view in general is glitchy AF - the preview pane likes to show you what's happening, then it loses interest & wanderers off to do something else, then returns after a minute or so to say "yeah, it'll probably look something like this but whatevs - I can't really be bothered to remember what you typed so here's every third letter". Desktop is freaking tiny, so it's the lesser of two evils and why a third of my edits have the summary "typo". Blue-Sonnet 08:11, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Rjjiii Jinx, posted at the same time 😁 Blue-Sonnet 08:13, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Try it! MEN KISSING (she/they) Talk to me, I don't bite! - See my edits 07:23, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet: Here is the list of longest talk pages sorted by most bytes in length: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_reports/Long_pages/User_talk Rjjiii (talk) 06:57, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Rjjiii For what it's worth, I'm using Windows 10/64-bit/32 GB RAM Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4590 CPU @ 3.30GHz (I only tested this on one of my PCs, I have one that's faster and several that are much slower). I tested this version of the page out on a few browsers, with no scripts at all. Here's how long it took for my PC to fully load the page (from the time the first content on the page appeared, to the time it took the tab to stop showing that it's loading the page):
- Chrome: 28 seconds
- Edge: 30 seconds
- Firefox: 32 seconds
- This is not a lightweight computer, so I can kind of see why editors with lower-performance devices had issues accessing EEng's talk page. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:10, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- The mobile app is shit for anything more than the simplest of talk page discussions. If that is where people were having problems then, EEng's user talk wouldn't have been the only place they'd have issues. TarnishedPathtalk 04:16, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comment IMO if EEng wants to keep their archive pages large we should let them. However any incivility or other problems from them over someone not reading something in their large archives when it's already been made clear it causes problems for some editors should be subject to escalating blocks leading to an indefinite, or just a future community site ban if admins are too afraid to act. In other words they need to accept that by doing what they are doing, their talk archives can be treated as non-existent. As for future growth of their talk page, meh I feel it's fine to just leave it with the hope we finally get strong User talk limits and if not we can deal with next time it grows too large. Nil Einne (talk) 06:56, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Oppose. There's no P&G rationale to do that. It's really himself that he is hurting by non-archiving, because good editors avoid his TP because it's so unwieldy. EEng is not an admin so there is no requirement for accessibility. Plus in my opinion there are far worse usertalks out there -- highly experienced editors who do not keep either a TOC or an archive, and just randomly remove posts/threads forever. There's even an admin who has no TOC on their talkpage. Besides, content discussions belong on article-talk, not usertalk. Just stick to discussing content, not editors (behavior). If there's a behavior issue, put a brief note on usertalk, and if it persists, bring it to ANI (or ANEW, etc.), and if it still persists, bring it to ArbCom. There's no need for involved discussions on usertalk. If articletalk bullying occurs, set up an RFC about the content in question. Don't engage with or respond to bullying or personal attacks. Softlavender (talk) 07:11, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- "
EEng is not an admin so there is no requirement for accessibility.
" that's incorrect, WP:OWNTALK says "User talk pages must serve their primary purpose, which is to make communication and collaboration among editors easier. Editors who refuse to use their talk page for these purposes are violating the spirit of the talk page guidelines, and are not acting collaboratively.
" There are other pages which would say the same thing in different fashion, Of course every page needs to be WP:Accessible anyway. More to the point, we regularly block people on ANI when they refuse to collaborate. Most commonly this is editors who refuse to communicate at all, but it would also apply to editors who make it impossible to reach out to them or otherwise make it sound like you shouldn't or make it difficult. IIRC it was just a few weeks ago someone was blocked for amongst other reasons, putting a message on their userpage which said something along the lines of 'I'm not interested in discussing anything, don't leave messages here'. The reality is, any editor without as much support as EEng will be blocked if they refuse or make it very difficult for people to let people use their talk page, there's no reason why EEng should be special. To be blunt, us plebs are much more likely to be blocked for it than admins will be, so your basic premise is nonsense. Nil Einne (talk) 08:07, 4 May 2026 (UTC)- BTW, AFAICT, now one is talking about long discussions on EEng's talk page. The concern is it's likely many are going to be discouraged or prevented from talking to EEng point blank. Nil Einne (talk) 08:15, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Thinking a bit more, I'm fairly sure there have also been cases where editors (who still edit) have tried to redirect their user talk page somewhere and it was made clear to them this isn't acceptable. Likewise it's clear that user talk pages can only be protected when absolutely needed to deal with problems. So for example, an editor cannot ask for semi-protection just because they don't like dealing with TAs. Again, to be blunt, I don't know where anyone experienced here would get the idea that it's acceptable for a non-admin to not be easily reachable via their talk page, but it's simply not. One of the reasons why it sort of just implied all over the place rather than outright stated anywhere is likely because it's such an obvious thing that no one experienced has previously ever seriously contested that editors need to be easily reachable via their user talk pages. The only ones who've ever really contested it have been inexperienced editors and as I've said they've generally been quickly dealt with. Nil Einne (talk) 08:28, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- EEng isn't refusing to ever reply to any talkpage posts, so he is not violating WP:OWNTALK, and no one has ever been blocked for having a long talkpage or not making their talkpage amenable to easy discussion (as I mentioned above there's a prolific longterm editor who removed their TOC [making discussions difficult or quite inaccessible] and also simply deletes posts rather than archiving, and there's an admin who removed their own TOC [making discussions inaccessible, even though accessibility is a specific requirement for admins]). I never mentioned "long discussions", so I'm not sure who you are talking to with that comment. Softlavender (talk) 08:43, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Is removing the TOC on one's Talk page prohibited? I actually removed mine and added a "Skip to the bottom" button (which I cribbed from someone else) assuming that this would actually facilitate communication—as someone coming to the page probably wasn't there to scroll through other folks' messages and threads (archived or not), but to say something to me. The choice certainly wasn't ill-willed or in any way intended maliciously. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:33, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- You said "
There's no need for involved discussions on usertalk.
but this has absolutely nothing to do with involved or long discussions which I consider the same thing. This is about the inability of editors to leave a comment and inform EEng of something prior to their archival of their talk page. Communication is two sided. It doesn't matter if EEng willresoibdrespond to messages if it's impossible to leave messages on their talk page. As you've already pointed out there's generally no need for long/involved discussions on user talk pages anyway, so the lack of a TOC isn't a big deal. The point is people should be able to easily message EEng when necessary which they were preventing until recently. You yourself seem to agree that people should be able to leave a brief comment on EEng's talk page but then latersaidimplied it doesn't matter if editors can't which is fairly contradictory. Either way it's not necessary to see previous messages when doing so as you yourself acknowledged in your first comment with your comments like "put a brief note on usertalk". No one has ever been blocked largely because the vast majority of editors have responded before they could be blocked. Even EEng has responded so they're not going to be blocked of it and no one has suggested they should be. AFAIK no one has ever been blocked for trying to redirect their talk page either again because when it has been an issue the editor has responded accordingly. But the fact remains, our guidelines do require that EEng is easily reachable on their talk page which means editors need to be able to easily post messages on their talk page. The principle that editors need to be willing to communicate whichincldes thatincludes that they need to be willing to receive messages on their talk page and not place undue barriers on editors who want to reach them that way (with the exception of asking any particular editor to stay away) is well supported not only by our policies and guidelines but our blocking history. We can all agree they do not need to respond in any particular way other than take on board what they've been told and ensure they are complying with our policies and guidelines. They do not need to take part in long or involved discussion on their talk page. They do not need a TOC or need to archive them in a certain way. But they do need to ensure people can actually easily leave a first message which isn't possible then their talk page is so long it's causing problems on enough editor's browsers. Being easily reachable on your talk page isn't something restricted to admins, it's silly to suggest it is as you said in your first comment. It's something expected of all editors here because we are a collaborative work and it's impossible to collaborate when you make it difficult or impossible for certain editors to reach out to your for technical reasons which they cannot reasonably control but which you can do so in a manner which doesn't impose an undue burden on you. Another example well demonstrating the principle which just came to mind, editors who have modified their user interface in such a way that the add section or edit button are often blocked have been forced to change. Again there really should be no doubt over the requirement that editors should be easily reachable on their talk page. I frankly find it more offensive that anyone would suggest there is than anything about EEng in this thread who as I've acknowledged even before your comment, did eventually respond to the concerns. Nil Einne (talk) 10:39, 4 May 2026 (UTC) 12:33, 4 May 2026 (UTC)- To be clear, I don't think it matters whether EEng had intended to prevent editors from using posting messages on their talk page. Once they were informed of the problems it was causing editors, they knew they were preventing editors from doing so. Considering there wasn't a good enough reason to keep so many old threads, they should have acted to ensure their
User talk pages
serve [its] primary purpose
to make communication and collaboration among editors easier
by removing some of the older messages. Whether they archived them or just removed them is up to them, as we've decided archival isn't required (for good reason IMO). An editor's refusal to ensure theirtheir talk page
is availablefor these purposes
, for example by allowing it to get so long it becomes a problem for editors wanting to leave a simple message and this isn't addressed when others raise even when it could be resolved without an undue burden, means this editor isn'tacting collaboratively
. In EEng's case, they've finally resolved this for now hence why I didn't see the need to force archival. But it doesn't mean the failure to ensure a users talk page is available for its primary purpose isn't a problem. It is. Nil Einne (talk) 12:25, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- To be clear, I don't think it matters whether EEng had intended to prevent editors from using posting messages on their talk page. Once they were informed of the problems it was causing editors, they knew they were preventing editors from doing so. Considering there wasn't a good enough reason to keep so many old threads, they should have acted to ensure their
- EEng isn't refusing to ever reply to any talkpage posts, so he is not violating WP:OWNTALK, and no one has ever been blocked for having a long talkpage or not making their talkpage amenable to easy discussion (as I mentioned above there's a prolific longterm editor who removed their TOC [making discussions difficult or quite inaccessible] and also simply deletes posts rather than archiving, and there's an admin who removed their own TOC [making discussions inaccessible, even though accessibility is a specific requirement for admins]). I never mentioned "long discussions", so I'm not sure who you are talking to with that comment. Softlavender (talk) 08:43, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- "
- Support Any mechanism that makes user talk pages more accessible to the end user is a win in my book. That has been my argument in the cited DRV I started, and this has been the thrust of my (ultimately failed) policy proposal. You may disagree with the implementation but I am glad that more and more people recognise that the basic idea is correct and needs to be enforced if necessary. (It should be a rule of general applicability, though, I'm not a fan of selective enforcement).
I will reiterate that guidelines already state that the purpose of talk pages is communication and not user control, and WP:OWN is pretty clear that there is no such thing as ownership of pages on Wikipedia. Not even user pages.
I strenously reject Softlavender's frankly bizarre statement that only admins needs to keep their talk page accessible. I don't see this anywhere. If somebody wants to raise an issue, the possibility to do so shouldn't depend on someone's editing status, permissions, (in general) the user who wants to raise it, the topic or whether it can fit in a template. (Obvious examples would include someone who closes an RfC, which non-adnins often do).
Given EEng's reaction to this discussion by wiping clean his talk page and asking "happy now?" it does seem that part of the motivation was to spite someone. I respect EEng's choice, even if I consider it akin to "rage quit" in games. I never asked him nor pressured him to blank the page, just remove enough stuff for it to work for anyone. But blanking also resolves the issue. Szmenderowiecki (talk · contribs) 09:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC) - Oppose - I don't think this was needed regardless (I have no issue accessing on mobile and having it all on one page makes it easier to search through for me), but EEng has now agreed to keep the page smaller. If this is not done in a reasonable time frame or if it recurs, this can be reopened, but forced automated archiving is completely unnecessary at this point. LordCollaboration (talk) 13:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect everyone will want to see this post, so I've taken the liberty of putting it bold.
I have, of course, been watching this discussion from the beginning, and I want everyone to know that I bear ill will to none -- EXCEPT the small number of people who so freely ascribe bad faith.
Like this guy ^^^^. Spite
? Weary acceptance isn't spite. akin to "rage quit" in games
? Oh please. There's no rage, and I'm certainly not quitting.
Or how about this (from this thread's OP, 240 posts ago): the user's talk page is a whopping 1 million bytes, presumably to stymie any attempt to discuss his problematic conduct
. Presumably, huh? You got a lot of fucking nerve presuming such a thing. (Plus that would be a really lame stratagem anyway, so I'm kind of insulted by the suggestion.)
The God's honest truth is that GiantSnowman hit the nail on the head somewhere above: One benefit of that monster of a talk page - very easy to see all the ANI threads / blocks etc. that have accrued over the years
. Indeed, I first began letting stuff accumulate on my talk page when I received my very first block twelve years ago -- a block called "outrageous" by a member of Arbcom. I wanted a (semi)permanent record of that for all to see, to show that I fear no scrutiny. And as more overturned blocks accumulated -- see here for a summary -- my desire to keep that record visible grew.
And to a certain extent that remained the reason, though with time another reason appeared: a lot of people find the goings-on on my talk page just plain fun (to participate in, or merely to wander through) as a break from editing -- see User:EEng#What_the_Critics_Are_Saying.
Plus I'm lazy. Once in a great while I'll knuckle down and hack away a bit (see ), but soon other workaday cares interpose themselves. As winter turns to spring I tell myself I'll get back to it soon, but weeks turn into months, and Easter's promise of renewal give way to summer's heat with its heavy, languid amnesia. The long, honeyed afternoons stretch out until the very concept of archiving feels exhausting. A hazy complacency seeps into my being. I tell myself there's time yet -- that the year is wide and generous -- while my talk page becomes more and more overgrown and tangled, like a garden left untended in the humidity. The bright fire of my initial determination dwindles to a soft glow of future intention. Then as fall's browns and oranges give way to winter's icy grip ... Anyway, I'm lazy.
OK then, so here we are. Doesn't this all seem a bit overwrought? I mean, let's say the black helicopters are dispatched, and operatives rappel down ropes to my talk page to force-install auto-archiving... What will be the algo and min_threads_to_archive and min_threads_left settings? Will everyone suggest their favorite values for those, and then we'll use the averages? Or how about ... I promise to keep the page to 350K or less, cross my heart and hope to die, and we all go back to editing? EEng 11:49, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I dare you to imagine you are on a metered connection and you are trying to discuss something with somebody on your talk page. ~2026-21916-69 (talk) 12:30, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- GiantSnowman has that very useful knack of being right without realising it. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- My wisdom is often ignored... GiantSnowman 12:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- On the subject of hitting nails, this old saw springs to mind (which seems apropos in this most peculiar case). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 12:43, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- To which Maslow might add "it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 12:50, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- My wisdom is often ignored... GiantSnowman 12:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think that's a fair compromise. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 12:40, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- That you feel the need for your first comment to include cussing out the person who created the thread is certainly a choice, as is saying that you have direct "ill will" towards at least some of the participants. In fact it must be embarrassing for those who claimed that the incivility was "no big deal" and hardly worthy of discussion when it's so blatant that you will be uncivil in ANI itself during a discussion specifically about that.
- If it was condensed down to literally only the last sentence, and with an added apology, I think it'd have been perfectly acceptable to many, but, as a mere footnote to this, it seems disingenuous. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:42, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- What I want to see from EEng - a retraction of the 'ill will'/'bad faith' comments, and associated apology; an apology for general shoddy attitude; and an agreement to keep the talk page down to a manageable level (whether that's archiving or deletion, I care not). That should deal with all issues as I can see? GiantSnowman 12:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) While we do give reasonable latitude to editors deciding how long to keep their user talk page, I don't think it should be surprising once it starts to become a significant problem for other editors to edit and therefore to leave new messages, this is something that you need to fix. While I agree the way some raised it in this thread isn't great, I'm fairly sure this isn't the first time it's been mentioned. So I think even if that were an excuse, it's not here. But I don't think it is an excuse. If editors raise legitimate concerns, we really need to address them no matter how poorly they were raised provided they weren't raised so poorly that we cannot recognise the problem. I mean most of us including me have been there to some extent, but we cannot let ego or personal feelings get in the way of making Wikipedia better for all everyone including all editors. Remembering if there's legitimate problem it's not just the editor who expressed concerns who has problems. Now that you've fixed the issue, I don't personally see the need to force archival but you do need to deal with it in the future & especially once editors start to raise concerns again no matter how poorly they are raised. If you don't deal with it quickly enough, you shouldn't be surprised editors will raise concerns and some may do it poorly. (As I also mentioned, you can mostly do what you want with your archive pages IMO. But just recognise that by making them so long, functionally you don't have archives for some editors so you shouldn't complain that editors are raising the same issue or don't know what is in your archives when they can't access them.) Nil Einne (talk) 12:44, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Or how about ... I promise to keep the page to 350K or less, cross my heart and hope to die, and we all go back to editing?
- If that means you'll implement auto-archiving on your page then that's acceptable, because we shouldn't have to keep wasting editor time on "drama threads" over and over and over again on this same thing, which is that you will just absolutely not voluntarily keep your talk page to a workable size. Such an implementation would also prevent your stated issue of "laziness" from causing this to happen again.
- Simply the only way this issue is going to be resolved finally, years after it should've been, is by auto-archiving either being implemented by yourself voluntarily (all you have to do is put the default code in) or it being imposed on your talk page. Rambling Rambler (talk) 13:18, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've just realised I haven't archived my talk page for a couple of years, and I have no idea how big it is, or even how to check. I started manually archiving it way before any automatic archivers existed. I'd better do something about it before the feeding frenzy moves on. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yours is only 64k, just avoid implying anyone is an unserious editor and you'll be fine. MetalBreaksAndBends (talk) 15:12, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks. Where, incidentally, did you get that number? I won't treat the matter as super-urgent. I wouldn't imply that anyone was unserious (even EEng) other than myself, and I promise to be deathly serious from now on. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:55, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- It should be shown next to every revision, but if you can't see it, it's also on page info. The bit about implying an editor unserious was with regards to EE's comment "Now please go back to editing about video games (...) and leave serious editors alone." MetalBreaksAndBends (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks. Where, incidentally, did you get that number? I won't treat the matter as super-urgent. I wouldn't imply that anyone was unserious (even EEng) other than myself, and I promise to be deathly serious from now on. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:55, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- Yours is only 64k, just avoid implying anyone is an unserious editor and you'll be fine. MetalBreaksAndBends (talk) 15:12, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've just realised I haven't archived my talk page for a couple of years, and I have no idea how big it is, or even how to check. I started manually archiving it way before any automatic archivers existed. I'd better do something about it before the feeding frenzy moves on. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
- I originally said EENG should be forced to archive their talk page, partially as humour because ... we'll it's EENG. Realistically such large pages do make it difficult for some editor (not for you? good for you, how fortunate), and they've committed to keep it below a certain size. So let's take them at their word, assume good faith, and move on. There's always a tiny difference in grammar on a page with 10 page views in the last decade that needs to be discussed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:31, 4 May 2026 (UTC)
Notes
- Like Rambling Rambler said, 23 thousand words is absurd.
Premature closure discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Two comments: (1) the closure of this section says "EEng has set up archiving" but this is not true. (2) Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1146#As_an_aside...._EEng's_talk_page_size_(again), Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1060#EEng's_talk_page_size. ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 19:07, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- If you are wondering, the reason I set the
countparameter to "28" is because the current value had produced an error stating that the 14th archive is above the recommended limits, and since that error also reccomended advancing the count to 15, I assumed I more permanent fix would be to double the count number, so if the archiving bot does remove content from the 14th archive and paste it to new archives, the error wouldn't be produced again until the 28th archive got filled up, which would take a lot of discussions to fill. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 19:16, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- No, that is not how that template works; please read the template documentation. (But also please do not re-implement the edit once you've understood how it works.) ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ohhh, I see how I was an idiot; if the OneClickArchiver script is directed to archive to
User talk:EEng/Archive 15, wouldn't it create that page the next time the script is used? - If so, then the
count=parameter should be updated to 15, not 14 or 28. - BlueEleephant (talk · contribs) 20:13, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- Yes, but in the absence of EEng requesting assistance with that or a community consensus requiring it, you should not be changing it (nor should any other individual editor). ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Ohhh, I see how I was an idiot; if the OneClickArchiver script is directed to archive to
- Seems @~2026-92659-0 was correct (apologies). Essentially they still haven't set up an automatic archiver, it's just the one-click archiver, so we'll just get this problem re-occurring again and again.
- @Dr vulpes your close might be premature in this case. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- You wanted them to archive their talk page and they have. If they fail to click the archive button that's on them and they will be subject to sanctions. Reopening the case will not really change the outcome, the community wanted the talk page cleaned up and it has been cleaned. You have already obtained the desired result, anything other than this starts to feel like bullying. If I was EEng I would set up automatic archiving and just move on but that's just me. Dr vulpes (Talk) 19:54, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
If they fail to click the archive button that's on them and they will be subject to sanctions.
Really? I was under the impression editors were free to simply delete anything they wanted from their talk page, for any reason, or no reason at all. Marcus Markup (talk) 19:57, 3 May 2026 (UTC)- No, I asked for mandatory archiving. As I commented just before your closure, all they've done is created yet another giant archive that is also untrawlable at nearly 1.5 million bytes and haven't set up an archiving system that is what one would reasonably resolve this issue once and for all.
- As shown by the repeated threads on this issue, EEng repeatedly fails to resolve this issue and instead we keep having to have threads on them doing this same behaviour year after year. Auto-archiving unfortunately needs to be imposed. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:00, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Bad close, does NOT represent the consensus here. GiantSnowman 20:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Based on past discussions (the one Cryptic linked as well as I the two I linked), I think it is not safe to assume that the comments from the six hours this discussion was open will ultimately hold up as a community consensus. I have mixed feelings about this personally, but for more data-points see e.g. and . ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Bad close, does NOT represent the consensus here. GiantSnowman 20:08, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- You wanted them to archive their talk page and they have. If they fail to click the archive button that's on them and they will be subject to sanctions. Reopening the case will not really change the outcome, the community wanted the talk page cleaned up and it has been cleaned. You have already obtained the desired result, anything other than this starts to feel like bullying. If I was EEng I would set up automatic archiving and just move on but that's just me. Dr vulpes (Talk) 19:54, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, that is not how that template works; please read the template documentation. (But also please do not re-implement the edit once you've understood how it works.) ~2026-92659-0 (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
QuantumArchivist42667
I think it's pretty clear that User:QuantumArchivist42667 is an SPA that exists only to defend the reputation of the Ahmadi Religion of Peace and Light and its leader Abdullah Hashem. Other editors have posted their concerns on the account's talk page, but its operator has not desisted. Since I've edited the article myself, I'm not in a position to block as an involved party since I have contributed some of the material they removed, but I would invite other admins to take a look at this account's contributions and the discussion on their talk page. — The Anome (talk) 09:48, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
Done: Partially blocked from Ahmadi Religion of Peace and Light and Abdullah Hashem. I generally don't like indefinite partial blocks because they're hard to appeal when they should be removed, so I'm open to reconsidering if the user starts contributing helpfully to other topics and leaves their conflicts of interest behind. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
Policy violations and uncivil conduct by the User:Nourerrahmane
Reporting a pattern of inappropriate behavior by Nourerrahmane on Talk:Numidia and their rejection of (WP:Policies and Guidelines).
(WP:NOR) (WP:V): This user continues, despite clarification, to misrepresent the source, manipulate the lettering and meaning of an archaeological inscription, and falsify the source's scientific material. He is employing original research to justify this distortion, insisting on the error, and claiming that the source explicitly states it.
(WP:CIVIL): Despite further clarification regarding the violation of Wikipedia policies, the user persisted in conducting original research and Using uncivil language, interjecting an old edit into the discussion that is irrelevant to the issue at hand about " misrepresentation of the source and (NOR)", and describing an edit in the Libyco-berber language as "BS".
(WP:OWN):The user demonstrated clear ownership of the article, stating: As a major contributor to the article
and ordering that nothing be removed without his consent. Instead of resolving the issue, he threatened to resort to ANI to silence the discussion. Mostasem gridi (talk) 18:31, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- User has a history in edit waring and failed verification, such as here. They often disregard other contributors' opinions and seem to not really understand the consept of reaching a consensus (which is not up to my sole consent). Like many Berber nationalists disrupting Maghreb related articles, anything to do with Punic script is often subject to deletion. Although I presented my argument to them using a reliable source, they bludgeon the process regardless, leaving me no choice but to remind them that their self published source they supported an old edit of them with is not academic and won't make it in the article. Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:59, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- I have no personal issue with you. Your attempt to personalize the matter and frame it as a 'nationalist-racial' conflict (WP:NPA) is merely an attempt to evade the core issue: your violations of (WP:NOR), (WP:V), (WP:OWN), and (WP:CIVIL). You have clearly misrepresented both the source and the archaeological inscription; the source does not state what you claimed. I have explained that in great detail.
- I am not demanding the reinstatement of the old edit, which was rejected long ago due to weak sourcing that is perfectly normal. However, the edit I mentioned in the 'American-Algerian War' article is clearly sourced by Oxford University Press; you are welcome to review it. Therefore, I request that you cease using this type of racial language and personal attacks, and stop evading the actual issue at hand. Mostasem gridi (talk) 20:08, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Nourerrahmane, you are not doing yourself any favors by attempting to paint and dismiss Mostasem as a Berber nationalist here. Unless you have additional diffs in hand to demonstrate a serious POV problem along those lines, it is an aspersion. signed, Rosguill talk 23:56, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- This mostly looks like a content dispute. Regarding the first point, the source provided, "Krahmalkov, Charles R. (2015). A Phoenician-Punic Grammar. BRILL. pp. 136, 144.", does in fact mention MMLKT on page 136 as stated. It's not clear whether this should be taken as particularly definitive as far as determining the proper name/spelling of ancient Numidia, but it's not accurate to say that they're falsifying anything here, at least not based on the interchange you pointed to. The second complaint off-handedly referring to one of Mostasem gridi's edits as BS is uncivil, although in context it's mitigated by Mostasem's own uncollegial tone immediately prior. The third complaint reads rather ironically, given that it's not an inaccurate summary of what Mostasem is doing right now. My overall conclusion is that it's warranted to tut-tut Nourerrahmane for the personal attack, and otherwise you need to get back to discussing sources and probably calling in additional editors for dispute resolution. Finally, I'll note that the report gives an impression of LLM formatting and argumentation--if my suspicion is accurate, please for the love of humanity don't do that. signed, Rosguill talk 20:26, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- i feel it strongly enough that it should be hatted imo LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 22:01, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comments like this don't help matters - I also suspect they're using AI. There are several messages on their Talk about fictional flags being added , AI-generated sources and other source verification failures. Blue-Sonnet 22:57, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hello, Blue-Sonnet although I don’t understand why all this attacks to me as a new editor, I acknowledge that I make mistakes like everyone else and I will respond to the accusations. Regarding the claim of original research on the Jaafar ibn Fallah article I discussed the problem with the editor and provided all relevant evidence and academic sources, which you can review here. As for the called fictional flags, these are widely used symbols: the black flag represents the Abbasids and the green flag represents the Fatimids, and this is well established. I removed them following the guidance of a more experienced user. Regarding the AI accusation I used a book from Google Books and was not aware that there were publishing sources associated with AI. When the editor pointed this out I thanked them and now make sure to carefully verify publishers. I will also continue to improve myself in the future. Thank you for your feedback. Mostasem gridi (talk) 23:54, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you for replying, I'm sorry that you feel my concerns about the use of AI/LLM is an attack but this doesn't constitute a personal attack on Wikipedia - just a concern with diffs providing background evidence for those same concerns.
- Can I please ask just for the avoidance of doubt, as I'm the third editor who has these same concerns - are you currently using any form of AI, LLM, chatbot or machine translation to edit Wikipedia or respond to these posts? Blue-Sonnet 00:02, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- No, it’s not like that Sometimes I only struggle with some difficult or uncommon words because English is not my mother language. As for the structure, I spend a lot of time preparing the message and trying to make it as perfect as possible. Mostasem gridi (talk) 00:15, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- For the record I do not believe this report was LLM-generated; its formatting and structure are different than the chatbot output I have typically seen, and it does not exhibit any of the usual "AI tells" (disclaimer: I have just added another example to one of the subsections). No comment on Blue-Sonnet's other evidence. OutsideNormality (talk) 04:08, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thank you, I appreciate your integrity Mostasem gridi (talk) 04:45, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- I'm happy to accept that they've not used AI in this report also, based on your analysis and their assurances that it's not being used.
- AI is integrated into so much these days that it's getting harder to tell! Blue-Sonnet 10:44, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hello, Blue-Sonnet although I don’t understand why all this attacks to me as a new editor, I acknowledge that I make mistakes like everyone else and I will respond to the accusations. Regarding the claim of original research on the Jaafar ibn Fallah article I discussed the problem with the editor and provided all relevant evidence and academic sources, which you can review here. As for the called fictional flags, these are widely used symbols: the black flag represents the Abbasids and the green flag represents the Fatimids, and this is well established. I removed them following the guidance of a more experienced user. Regarding the AI accusation I used a book from Google Books and was not aware that there were publishing sources associated with AI. When the editor pointed this out I thanked them and now make sure to carefully verify publishers. I will also continue to improve myself in the future. Thank you for your feedback. Mostasem gridi (talk) 23:54, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Comments like this don't help matters - I also suspect they're using AI. There are several messages on their Talk about fictional flags being added , AI-generated sources and other source verification failures. Blue-Sonnet 22:57, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hello Rosguill, I appreciate your opinion, but I still stand by my report about (WP:NOR) (WP:V) (WP:OWN) (WP:CIVIL). The problem concerns the use of the source and the Cherchell inscription, which reads MLK MSYLYYN referring to an individual rather than a political entity. The editor appears to have taken terms MMLKT from other parts of the same book as noted on p. 136, and combined them with the inscription, then presented the result as the official native name of the kingdom of Numidia. This constitutes original research. Mostasem gridi (talk) 23:17, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're jumping to conclusions about Nourerrahmane's arguments; Nourerrahmane has yet to explain the basis of their reasoning. You may well be right, but more discussion is needed, and that's a content question. No one is going to get sanctioned at ANI for a single instance of an ORish argument, much less when it's just two editors arguing and there is no clear consensus that there even is OR at hand. signed, Rosguill talk 23:38, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hello, so I’m not saying that Mostasem is explicitly a Berber nationalist, but I had to deal with few of them essentially because of their deletions of Punic from the infobox and lead. While some of Mostasem contributions are quite good, he still pushes his POV sometimes. He needs to care more about other contributors’ objections. (The Algerian corsairs could not take 2K American slaves in just one year. It’s obvious that source speaks about the amount of slaves Algiers had overall when the war with the U.S. started).
- Speaking of the native name of Numidia, what we have so far is a script referring to the king of unified Numidia as the king of the massyli. Numidia was not unified in the post Cold War German sense, it was masinissa, Micipsa’s father, who took over his rival’s kingdom, the Masaesyli , in the name of his massyli kingdom. Numidia, much like medieval Berber kingdoms later, were primarily tribal states. Basically the massyli took over their rivals’ lands and made them part of their massyli kingdom. A known Numidian figure, Lucius Apuleius was a Masaesyli who said this about his heritage in Eve McDonald’s Carthage: A new history of an ancient empire: «He expresses his identity in an educated and ironic way of a distant past and its glorious stories when he states that
- I don't know what I should be ashamed of, any more than Cyrus the Great who was also of mixed birth - half Mede and half Persian I did not say this out of any embarrassment of my home town, even if we were still the city of Syphax. When he was defeated, we were graciously allowed by the Roman people to join king Masinissa. (Apuleius, Apologia 24.7)»
- Basically it makes very much sens to refer to the Kingdom of Numidia as the “kingdom of the massyli” which is why Micipsa was referred to in Punic as the king of these people. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:15, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hello again. I want to clarify that this discussion is about changing the term MLK to MMLKT and altering the meaning of both the source and the archaeological inscription. It is not about the Algerian pirates. The sources you mentioned about Apuleius and Masinissa do not prove that the Kingdom of Numidia was officially called MMLKT MSYLYYN in the native language. Linguistic documentation of ancient political entities requires a clear and reliable source. The Massylii were the tribe of eastern Numidia, so it is normal for people to mention their tribal origin. I think it would be better to prove that the sources explicitly identify MMLKT MSYLYYN as the native name of the Kingdom of Numidia instead of relying on original research. If the problem is about interpreting general information from a source, then that can be discussed. But changing the letters of an archaeological inscription and using it in a misleading way is not acceptable.
- You also continue making false accusations. Changing the number of American prisoners is not a crime, nor is it racist or nationalist. I also did not use the word sl*ve as you claimed, but captured. If you want to open a separate discussion about the other topics you mentioned, I do not mind, but not here. I also hope editors keep the discussion focused on the actual issue, because it has gone far beyond the original topic and shifted from discussing an archaeological inscription to discussing my old edits. Mostasem gridi (talk) 02:51, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- A reminder that Wikipedia is not censored. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:18, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- You're jumping to conclusions about Nourerrahmane's arguments; Nourerrahmane has yet to explain the basis of their reasoning. You may well be right, but more discussion is needed, and that's a content question. No one is going to get sanctioned at ANI for a single instance of an ORish argument, much less when it's just two editors arguing and there is no clear consensus that there even is OR at hand. signed, Rosguill talk 23:38, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
- i feel it strongly enough that it should be hatted imo LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 22:01, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
User:Hfhtdjf
Hfhtdjf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is involed in uncontructive edits and possible edit warring, I tried to make the user understand by leaving the comments in edit summary but the user is uncooperative.
Diffs:
Pagers (talk) 05:39, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding the edit warring (I haven't looked at that properly yet), I note that neither of you have touched the article Talk page to try to actually talk to each other.
- Edit summaries aren't for this sort of communication, they're for a basic sentence explaining what you've done. Whilst Wikipedia:BRD isn't a policy, IMO it's something we should all be doing by default. Blue-Sonnet 11:06, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've looked into this a little further and noticed they've been brought to ANI before, but that was archived/disregarded when it was pointed out what hardly anyone was just talking to the editor to explain how things work.
- Since then, we have this discussion where edit warring, ownership and BRD were brought up as concerns (some of the presented diffs are from before this discussion, some after) and this warning about unconstructive edits at an AFD re. a completely unsourced article (they blanked the whole AFD page). It's now at Draft:Administrators (India).
- TBH I'm a little concerned about the above, although I note that only one person seems to have reached out to them directly to explain things outside of templates, so I'd really like to hear from @Hfhtdjf directly to try to clear this up. Blue-Sonnet 11:33, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet My concern is not just about their edits in the above mentioned 2 atricles but about all of 28 states' governors list and the union territories Lt. governors list. Which requires to be undone. And without the cooperation of this user, with constant reverting by the user. Pagers (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- We do definitely need to get this sorted out, they were also warned about things like edit warring and BRD previously but it's not clear whether they properly understood them. Blue-Sonnet 12:02, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- As mod on another (now shuttered) site, I found that users whose names looked like random left-hand typing rarely had anything useful to contribute. Narky Blert (talk) 14:13, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- I hope they do respond, I've got some competency concerns & it'll become a lot easier to understand what's happening if we can talk to them properly.
- If not, then we'll have to go with what we currently have. Blue-Sonnet 14:52, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- As mod on another (now shuttered) site, I found that users whose names looked like random left-hand typing rarely had anything useful to contribute. Narky Blert (talk) 14:13, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- We do definitely need to get this sorted out, they were also warned about things like edit warring and BRD previously but it's not clear whether they properly understood them. Blue-Sonnet 12:02, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet My concern is not just about their edits in the above mentioned 2 atricles but about all of 28 states' governors list and the union territories Lt. governors list. Which requires to be undone. And without the cooperation of this user, with constant reverting by the user. Pagers (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
Personal attacks and false fabrication accusation
A Contemporary Nomad accused me of fabricating a Britannica quote on Talk:Persian Gulf, called my post "AI generated slop" on Talk:Avicenna, and called me a "clanker". Called me "pathetic" and accused me of pushing a "chauvinistic POV". He also followed my contributions across pages to repeat the AI accusation.
I spent hours reading sources, Wikipedia Policies nd past discussions before posting. The Britannica qoute I used is actually in the article, by Adam Zeidan: https://www.britannica.com/place/Why-Is-It-Called-the-Persian-Gulf
Anyone can open it and find it. The accusations was made without checking. When I pointed this out, instead of retracting, his response was more insults.
Asking for admin review under Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Assume good faith. I want a retraction of the fabrication claim. Kasra str (talk) 00:13, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment: You need to inform editors when raising an ANI thread about them. I've done so for you here.
- It looks like this misunderstanding arose from the fact that the quote comes from the Encyclopedia Britannica article titled Why Is It Called The Persian Gulf? I don't think your comments on the talk page look AI-generated, and I don't think User:A Contemporary Nomad had the best response by being aggressive about it.
- As WP:HATGPT says, "comments, nominations, and opening statements that are obviously generated (not merely refined) by a large language model or similar AI technology may be struck or collapsed", so you needn't start arguing with an LLM in the first place, but you should also only collapse comments if you're near certain that it was AI-generated. I agree that A Contemporary Nomad's claim that the quote was AI-generated should be retracted.
- Kasra str, for future reference, it would help if you used links in your comments. You could link to the Encyclopedia Britannica that gives the quote you used, for example, and for this ANI thread, you need to link to the relevant diffs (or at least the discussions themselves) that show the behavior you want to discuss. Truthnope (talk) 00:56, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks @Truthnope for the feedback. I'm fairly new here and have been trying to learn the policies as I go, so I appreciate the pointers on diffs and links - I'll add them. And thanks for confirming the quote is real and that the fabrication claim should be retracted. Kasra str (talk) 01:20, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Adding diffs as requested:
- fabrication accusation, "Hallucinate sources", "pathetic to use AI", "chauvinistic POV"
- "clanker"
- "AI generated slop" on Avicenna talk
- follow up AI accusation after going through my contributions
- The Britannica article that I used:
- https://www.britannica.com/place/Why-Is-It-Called-the-Persian-Gulf Kasra str (talk) 01:46, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Kasra str What usernames have you previously employed here? I ask because you are a newly registered account, not quite seven days old with all of 22 edits, but you clearly know your way around here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:55, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- @ Any randomly passing CU... cough cough. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:59, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, no proof of sockpuppetry that I can find. ~ Jenson (SilverLocust 💬) 03:10, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- @SilverLocust Thank you. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Sorry, no proof of sockpuppetry that I can find. ~ Jenson (SilverLocust 💬) 03:10, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Hi @Ad Orientem, This is my only account, I haven't edited under any other username. For context, I have a PhD and I'm an academic, so reading policy before posting is just how I work. Before my Persian Gulf post, I skimmed MOS:WEASEL, WP:RELTIME, and read the source I was citing. For the Avicenna talk page, I had to read MOS:ETHNICITY. And now to write this ANI process, I've had to go thourgh WP:NPA, WP:AGF and now WP:HATGPT (which Truthnope linked). Happy to answer anything else. Kasra str (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- This is totally optional, but you might want to start by getting your feet wet on some other article other than on one of the most contentious and politically charged articles on Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:31, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks @Guy Macon, and I appreciate the advice. Honestly though, I want to contribute to things I know a little about and care about, and that's what brought me here. I'll keep your point in mind but my post wasn't picking a fight, the sentence I flagged already has [specify] and [timeframe?] maintenance tags on it from other editors. I was just addressing what was already flagged as a problem with a well-sourced response. The issue here isn't the post, it's how another editor responded to it. Kasra str (talk) 02:45, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Without commenting on any specific editor (I have not looked at the history), in general, certain topics attract jerks and assholes, and unfortunately some editors, after the last 20 newbies were jerks, tend to assume that the next one is a jerk as well. It's not right but it is human nature. It's OK to start off on contentious topics, but you need to have a thick skin and cultivate the habit of staying silent and not responding.
- "The most hostile group was the one with high but unstable self esteem. These people think well of themselves in general, but their self-esteem fluctuates. They are especially prone to react defensively to ego threats, and they are also more prone to hostility, anger and aggression than other people.
- "These findings shed considerable light on the psychology of the bully. Hostile people do not have low self esteem; on the contrary, they think highly of themselves, But their favorable view of themselves is not held with total conviction, and it goes up and down in response to daily events. The bully has a chip on his shoulder because he thinks you might want to deflate his favorable self image."
- -Roy F. Baumeister, Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty, p 149
- --Guy Macon (talk) 04:35, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Without commenting on any specific editor (I have not looked at the history), in general, certain topics attract jerks and assholes, and unfortunately some editors, after the last 20 newbies were jerks, tend to assume that the next one is a jerk as well. It's not right but it is human nature. It's OK to start off on contentious topics, but you need to have a thick skin and cultivate the habit of staying silent and not responding.
- Thanks @Guy Macon, and I appreciate the advice. Honestly though, I want to contribute to things I know a little about and care about, and that's what brought me here. I'll keep your point in mind but my post wasn't picking a fight, the sentence I flagged already has [specify] and [timeframe?] maintenance tags on it from other editors. I was just addressing what was already flagged as a problem with a well-sourced response. The issue here isn't the post, it's how another editor responded to it. Kasra str (talk) 02:45, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- This is totally optional, but you might want to start by getting your feet wet on some other article other than on one of the most contentious and politically charged articles on Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:31, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether someone is actually a sockpuppet or not, we're not allowed to accuse new editors of being sockpuppets simply for being competent per a number of P&Gs. Though Kasra str, I second Guy Macon's suggestion to avoid controversial areas at least for a little while, and that's the advice I'd give to any new editor. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:25, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Contentious topic or not, shouldn't the user who leveled the PAs/policy/guideline violations at least be warned against this kind of behavior? They may have been here a fair tick of time, but it doesn't make for a very civil workspace if these kind of accusations can be flung around without consequence. — Dædαlus+ Contribs 05:12, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Be it as it may I am plenty capable of doing so, I don't think my words really hold any weight. — Dædαlus+ Contribs 05:16, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- I left a basic level one warning, that was pretty bitey overall & I felt deserved a warning at minimum. Blue-Sonnet 10:56, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- We've had a chat on my Talk page, they recognise it wasn't appropriate and have pledged to do better next time.
- We're all sick and tired of indiscriminate AI-use & it's easy to see it in places where it doesn't actually exist, which doesn't help matters.
- I'm hopeful that this can be closed as it appears to have been a short-term lapse in judgement. Blue-Sonnet 13:50, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- @ Any randomly passing CU... cough cough. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:59, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- @Kasra str What usernames have you previously employed here? I ask because you are a newly registered account, not quite seven days old with all of 22 edits, but you clearly know your way around here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:55, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks @Truthnope for the feedback. I'm fairly new here and have been trying to learn the policies as I go, so I appreciate the pointers on diffs and links - I'll add them. And thanks for confirming the quote is real and that the fabrication claim should be retracted. Kasra str (talk) 01:20, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
Formal Disclosure: Forensic Audit of Procedural Failures and Systematic Censorship regarding the 2026 Michael Karlan AFD
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |
|
This disclosure regards the forensic record of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Karlan (2nd nomination). Formal Disclosure: Forensic Audit of Procedural Failures, Administrative Overreach, and Systematic Censorship regarding the 2026 Michael Karlan AFD I. Disclosure of External Inquiry This disclosure provides a 3-week forensic record of administrative actions that deviate from established community standards and institutional policy. Statement of Subject Disclosure and Procedural Context I am submitting this statement as the identified subject of the biography under discussion (Michael Karlan) and as the editor DCPROFESSIONAL. Because I have complied with Wikipedia’s disclosure requirements, I carry a unique personal and professional risk in this proceeding. While all other participants may remain anonymous, any public "warnings" or manufactured records of misconduct are tied directly to my real-world identity. I am providing this clinical overview to document a "Procedural Vacuum" that occurred during the recent discussion of my biography. My objective is to offer a forensic account, informed by my professional background in judicial and legal procedures, of how the project's tools were utilized to compromise the integrity of the consensus-building process. This disclosure is intended to assist the Foundation in meeting its Duty of Care to identified individuals. II. The Structural "Procedural Vacuum" The record of the "Michael Karlan" AfD reveals a significant systemic vulnerability. For a period of several days, a senior veteran Wikipedia editor utilized the "Gray-Box" (hidden text) function to suppress the primary evidence of notability, specifically a 2,000-word cover feature in the Washington Post and other major press coverage. After gray-boxing this evidence, this same participant in the discussion advised me to remain silent. I was further instructed to stop "repeating" arguments, despite the fact that only one of my discussions remained visible because this editor had already gray-boxed all my previous contributions. Regardless of intent, the mechanical result of these simultaneous actions was the creation of a procedural vacuum: The community was presented with a depleted record omitting major source material. A consensus was attempted based on this incomplete information. I was procedurally prevented from participating during the most critical window of the discussion. III. Compliance and the Resulting Imbalance Operating in Radical Compliance with the instructions provided, I remained silent for six days while my arguments remained hidden. Regardless of intent, this sequence revealed a structural flaw: the power to determine the timing of the visibility of a suppressed record rests exclusively with the person who suppresses it. This created a procedural bottleneck. Specifically, by gray-boxing my defense while simultaneously issuing me a warning against any additional "repetition," regardless of intent, the structure of the discussion created a state where I was being falsely publicly cautioned against a behavior (repeating arguments) that was not in fact repetitive because the person warning me was the very person who had already hidden these very arguments. Had I reposted my arguments to ensure they were visible to the community, regardless of intent, the structure of the discussion allowed for me to be accused of "hijacking" the conversation with my repetition and defying administrative advice. Had I reported this discrepancy within the discussion itself, regardless of intent, the power dynamic allowed for me to be characterized as "uncivil" for unjustly questioning a veteran editor's methods and motives. I remained silent as the only certain way to avoid being sanctioned, which effectively left the record in a permanent factually compromised state. Regardless of intent, this created a state of 'Irreparable Procedural Harm,' where a consensus was formed not through a clash of ideas, but through the physical removal of one side of the ledger. Having allowed the local process six days to self-correct while remaining in strict compliance with the instructions to remain silent, I am now elevating this matter as the only remaining path to ensure the project’s record is not permanently compromised by this procedural stalemate. IV. Misapplication of AI/LLM Policy Standards Following the March 26, 2026 Policy Update, there is a heightened risk of "style-based" accusations being used to marginalize contributors with professional or clinical writing styles. In this discussion, my professional background and precise writing style, honed by years as a federal judicial clerk and tax attorney, were utilized, regardless of intent, as a unilateral reason to gray-box my arguments as "LLM-generated." This action directly contradicts the March 26, 2026, Policy Update, which explicitly cautions that 'more evidence than just stylistic or linguistic signs is needed' and warns against using style alone as a proxy for automation. Even after my explaining that this style is a product of professional training, this very same editor, regardless of intent, repeated the LLM accusation as he maintained the suppression. This represents a systemic vulnerability: regardless of intent, the mechanical result of using 'style' as a proxy for 'automation' is that if professional competence is used as a proxy for "automated" behavior, the project risks alienating high-level expertise and compromising the Neutral Point of View (NPOV). V. Asymmetric Power and Liability and the Duty of Care for Identified Subjects The project must recognize that when the subject of a Biography of a Living Person (BLP) is involved in a discussion, a profound power imbalance exists. Wikipedia rules require that the subject of a BLP disclose their real identity, while all other participants in the discussion are permitted to remain anonymous. Thus, while an anonymous editor carries no personal or professional risk whatsoever, any public sanctions, "warnings," or rebukes issued against an identified subject become a permanent, searchable part of that individual's personal and professional record. In this case, when a veteran editor issued public warnings regarding incivility and repetitive arguments, while simultaneously utilizing Gray-Boxing to hide the very evidence and defense being offered, regardless of intent, the mechanical result was the creation of a false public record of misconduct by Michael Karlan, not merely DCPROFESSIONAL. Because these accusations are tied to my actual name and personal and professional identities, regardless of intent, they constitute a form of real-world harassment and harm that anonymous participants do not face. The Foundation’s Duty of Care to identified subjects needs to ensure that its internal procedural tools are not weaponized by anonymous actors to inflict permanent reputational damage on identified individuals through a manufactured record. VI. Requested Administrative Actions I am reporting a structural failure in the project’s integrity. I request that the Administrators: Establish "Enhanced Procedural Oversight" for Identified BLP Subjects: Formally recognize that when a discussion involves a person whom Wikipedia requires to reveal their real identity, all other participants must be held to a higher standard of care. The suppression of primary evidence (Gray-Boxing), the issuance of behavioral warnings, or the issuance of any other personal criticisms or rebukes regarding the subject’s behavior or character by anonymous participants must be subject to immediate independent review to ensure the project is not facilitating real-world personal or reputational harm. Provide appropriate consequences for any proven serious ethical violations, with an emphasis on the potential for harm when community trust and seniority are abused to circumvent procedural fairness. The remedies for such violations must be commensurate with the gravity of the breach. To maintain the project's standard of care, administrative action must serve as a meaningful deterrent against the weaponization of seniority. A failure to provide a proportional response would effectively ratify the circumvention of procedural fairness, undermining institutional integrity and signaling to the broader community that seniority provides immunity from accountability. Review the administrative impact of "Gray-Boxing" during active deletion discussions to ensure it is not used to influence outcomes. Specifically, the editor doing the gray-boxing should not have the physical ability to then discretely un-gray box the text at a time that could create the false appearance of the contributor being the person who is actually disobeying Wikipedia rules. Issue a formal clarification that unsubstantiated "AI/LLM" concerns should not be used to enforce silence on contributors, and that Wikipedia longevity or trust designations may never be used as a substitute for actual procedural checks and balances. Establish a clear and unbiased reporting path outside of the affected discussions for participants who perceive a procedural injustice, ensuring that injured parties can report concerns outside of the specific forum where a de facto control of the narrative already exists. Review and Nullify Tainted Consensuses: Where a deletion or merge discussion has been shown to be conducted under a 'Procedural Vacuum' (i.e., through the suppression of legitimate sources or the silencing of participants), the resulting consensus should be deemed procedurally invalid and subject to immediate nullification. A consensus built on a falsified or depleted record is not a consensus. It is a structural failure that must be remedied to preserve the project's Neutral Point of View. Audit Abuses for Intentional Coordination: When abuses are discovered, investigate for "off-wiki" or cross-account coordination. When multiple veteran accounts synchronize the "gray-boxing" of evidence with either user warnings or concurrent attacks on the evidence, if such behavior exists, it creates a coordinated pincer move that prevents the community from seeing the full record while effectively gagging the contributor. This type of strategic coordination, if it exists, represents a systemic threat to the project's consensus model. Review for Potential Systemic Coordination: Investigate whether the timing of evidence suppression (gray-boxing) is synchronized with the issuance of procedural warnings. Regardless of the participants' intent, the mechanical result of such a "pincer move" is to prevent the community from seeing a full record while effectively silencing the subject. An audit of the logs is requested to ensure the integrity of the consensus-building process. Establish a Mandatory Integrity Audit (Look-Back) for Ethical Breaches: In cases where an editor is found to have utilized 'Gray-Boxing' or other procedural tools to suppress primary evidence or silence a BLP subject, a formal audit should be conducted of that editor's entire history. The project must determine if the activity documented represents an isolated incident or a systemic pattern of practice. To preserve the integrity of the project’s archives, it is essential to ensure that other identified subjects have not been similarly marginalized through the strategic suppression of records. Any violations found during the audit must be immediately cured to include: the restoration of any compromised data on Wikipedia, the reinstatement of any Wikipedia privileges lost by affected parties, and the implementation of all necessary measures to mitigate any reputational harm to the identified subject. The project's commitment to the Neutral Point of View (NPOV) is only as strong as its willingness to correct a record that has been compromised through procedural abuse. Establish a "Risk-Based" Safeguard for BLP Integrity: The Biography of Living Persons (BLP) space represents a uniquely sensitive intersection of asymmetric anonymity and high-stakes reputational impact. Given the project’s global reach, the consequences of a compromised or manipulated record are effectively permanent. Consequently, the BLP environment requires a heightened standard of Procedural Care. In instances where a participant is found to have utilized administrative or procedural tools to attempt to intentionally misrepresent a subject’s behavioral record or engage in the unauthorized suppression of primary source material, the priority must shift to Risk Mitigation. Such actions demonstrate a fundamental breakdown in the trust necessary to manage the data of living subjects. In these cases, a permanent recusal from the BLP space is the only reasonable administrative response. This is a prophylactic measure designed to protect the integrity of the project and the institutional risk profile of the Foundation. It ensures that the BLP space remains a high-trust environment by restricting participation to those who have demonstrated a consistent ability to uphold Wikipedia’s ethical mandates. By focusing on deterrence and systemic safety, this policy ensures that the project's tools are utilized solely for the neutral documentation of facts and never as instruments of personal or professional marginalization for identified subjects, a segment of the community that carries unique real-world exposure and thus requires heightened protection. Remediation of Professional Liability in Permanent Archives: Wikipedia archives are not merely internal logs; they are permanent, high-authority records utilized by automated background checks, security clearance investigators, and professional vetting committees. When a Living Person (BLP) is subjected to a procedural vacuum or unethical gatekeeping, wherein they are falsely accused of "unethical behavior" or gaming the system or other potential reputational harms or their primary evidence is suppressed, a "Keep" or "No Consensus" result is insufficient to prevent reputational harm. Accordingly, there should be a mandatory 'Correction of Record' in cases where forensic evidence proves a procedural breach. In such cases, an official, prominent statement should be appended to the permanent archive. This statement should formally notify future readers and automated systems that the subject did not engage in the alleged unethical or inappropriate behavior and that the record was corrupted by a documented failure of oversight. The project’s commitment to the 'Do No Harm' principle must be as permanent as its archives. Respectfully submitted, DCProfessional Michael Karlan Wikipedia editor since April 16, 2026 DCProfessional (talk) 07:22, 8 May 2026 (UTC) | |
- Holy WP:WALLOFTEXT, Batman. Leaving aside absolutely everything else about this, (1) if you want people to not
"Gray-Box"
your comments as being AI/LLM generated, don't use an AI/LLM to generate them. This comment has, pretty blatantly, been done so. (2) IfWikipedia archives
are beingutilized by automated background checks, security clearance investigators, and professional vetting committees
, I would first be extremely surprised that any of those groups would do anything but laugh themselves silly at the suggestion of doing such a thing, and then weep for their integrity. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:13, 8 May 2026 (UTC)- Unlike his posts in the AFD, this doesn't pass the LLM sniff test to me, it's too badly written. Orange sticker (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- +1, there are also a few weird grammatical and spelling mistakes, and the whole thing is very idiosyncratic in tone and language. It plausibly reads like a legalistic grievance written by a human attorney. But hatting it seems appropriate in any case, although the rationale might be debatable. Sławomir Biały (talk) 08:39, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- It has been written partially by an LLM. There are regular switches between curly and straight quotation marks, as well as switches between apostrophes and actual quotation marks for quotes.
- Some sections are human-written for sure though, for example, "
IV. Misapplication of AI/LLM Policy Standards
", where the phrase "March 26, 2026 Policy Update
" is initially written (incorrectly) without a comma following "2026", but a few sentences later, the phrase is repeated with the comma, reading "March 26, 2026, Policy Update
". aesurias (ping me in your reply, or I won't see it) (talk) 08:58, 8 May 2026 (UTC) - Not to jump the gun here, but couldn’t someone just lightly edit AI-generated text to make it look more “human” anyway? Especially if they’ve already caught flak before for using AI and know exactly what people are looking for. You can even prompt for it.. — ♾️ Contemporary Nomad (💬 Talk) 09:12, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- They make all sorts of demands, but don't say what will be the consequence of those demands not being met. So I don't think there is a legal threat, at least not an explicit one, but it comes pretty close. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:04, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Re. Wikipedia:Contact us/Article subjects should we be directing them to email info-en-q@wikimedia.org? I would have suggested that on their Talk myself, but I'm hesitating because no-one else has done that yet. Blue-Sonnet 11:37, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've left a much more general post since they've been blocked. Blue-Sonnet 14:54, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Re. Wikipedia:Contact us/Article subjects should we be directing them to email info-en-q@wikimedia.org? I would have suggested that on their Talk myself, but I'm hesitating because no-one else has done that yet. Blue-Sonnet 11:37, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- That makes me wonder how much truth there is to my dad telling me that whenever some says Z medication did X bad thing to the editor on a Wikipedia article that they need to contact the WMF to try to get contact information. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 12:01, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Unlike his posts in the AFD, this doesn't pass the LLM sniff test to me, it's too badly written. Orange sticker (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- I've indeffed them for only communicating through obnoxiously large volumes of LLM generated text. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:16, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
Targaryenlerhaklıdır
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Targaryenlerhaklıdır (talk · contribs) is a new editor who appears to have made quite an entrance, making weird edits tagged as minor, engaging in edit wars, cussing people out, getting temporarily blocked, doing it again.
I tried to reason with them, but they just did not listen at all. Is this a case of WP:NOTHERE? --Joy (talk) 07:55, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- I think it is. The editor is currently not taking any responsibility for their unconstructive acts. I see nothing in their conduct that indicates that they will stop. I would support a block unless the editor learns to take responsibility, but I haven't seen that happening. StephenMacky1 (talk) 08:46, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- Indeffed until they can commit to not doing exactly what they continued doing after their previous block. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:19, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
User posting in russian, potentially PAs and more
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Лилия Бог (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user has been continually posting in russian on talk pages, and if my machine translation is correct, is plainly NOTHERE. Instances include (machine translated) "just sit and wait for your violent, painful and suffering death" (twice) and their whole talk page (as of this diff). MetalBreaksAndBends (talk) 15:16, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
- (Personal attack removed) Лилия Бог (talk) 15:20, 8 May 2026 (UTC)
Eliosolis2025 NOTHERE
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Eliosolis2025 (talk · contribs) is WP:NOTHERE. It appears nearly every their contrib was reverted. Nearly all of them were hoaxes. Just look at their talkpage, littered with warnings over several months. --Altenmann >talk 04:48, 8 May 2026 (UTC)