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Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Medicine

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Case opened on 19:53, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

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Main case page (talk) — Evidence (talk) — Workshop (talk) — Proposed decision (talk)

Case clerks: Dreamy Jazz (talk) & Guerillero (talk) • Drafting arbitrators: Bradv (talk) & David Fuchs (talk) & Maxim (talk)

Case closed on 14:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Case amended by motion on 21:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Case amended by motion on 03:15, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Watchlist all case (and talk) pages: Front, Ev., Wshp., PD.

Case information

Involved parties

Prior dispute resolution

Preliminary statements

Statement by Barkeep49

This is a dispute over what kind of information about pricing of drugs and medicines belongs in articles that goes back years. The community made an admirable attempt to solve this dispute at the most recent ANI thread which I closed and then attempted to implement as an uninvolved administrator. This lead to an RfC which was recently closed. However, the RfC, despite finding consensus in some areas has not stopped the conflict as shown at Simvastatin and Ethosuximide. While at the core a content dispute and a dispute about our policies, there is enough disruptive behavior that an ArbCom case could lead to a structure or remedies to allow the disruptive behavior to end and our dispute resolution mechanism, which have been tried to their fullest, to stick. I have named the maximum number participants in this discussion/dispute that the template allows but there are several others who could be included and I have simply included those as parties who seem most involved (with a slight bias towards administrators) and I believe some of the listed parties have committed no behavioral issues while a couple of unlisted parties have exhibited behavior that could be sanctioned. 3:31, March 30, 2020‎ (UTC)

Newyorkbrad if the discussion were merely happening at the Medicine WikiProject trying to sort everything out, even if that got a bit contentious, I would say of course not. However, Simvastatin's article history points to edit warring involving a quite a few editors. And then at a different article the response to an edit being challenged was to immediately open another RfC seemingly re-litigating elements of the last RfC. I don't know if this was the right time. I wish these editors were focused on pandemic related content. But that wish is't the reality I'm seeing and I do not have hope that another RfC, narrower in scope than the last one and thus not likely to do more than achieve consensus at a particular article, is going to be effective dispute resolution for a conflict which is hundreds of articles in scope and has active edit warring among a non-limited set of editors. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
@DGG: Obviously you can't and shouldn't solve the areas the community left to no consensus. However, the RfC decided a fair bit more than just whether it should be in the lead. It's evidence of edit warring over those elements, and the immediate rush to a new RfC which I see not as a dispute resolution mechanism but to "win" their way, that suggests to me that the past behavior which I believe to fall short of community expectations is going to continue. Even in the midst of a global pandemic when I would think editors in this topic might have better things to do. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:42, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Re:other parties, Sandy covered the other people I considered as parties minus Rexx who has also been active in the area. I would just like to repeat, so people don't get the wrong idea about my adding Rexx, about my view that not all the parties listed have done anything against policy but are parties simply because they are active in this dispute. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Colin

James has singled-handedly inserted prices into the lead of over 530 drug articles over the past five years, rejecting long-standing WP:NOTPRICES policy forbidding this, and ignoring two RFCs on the matter. The first in 2016 found no consensus to add prices, except when sources note significance. Despite this RFC rejection of routine drug price inclusion, James cited it when adding prices to the MEDMOS guideline in September 2019. QuackGuru then added to MEDMOS an advocacy statement against the pharmaceutical industry as justification for including prices. This is what sparked the dispute that led to the second RFC in 2020. That RFC also re-affirmed the WP:NOTPRICES requirement for extensive discussion in secondary sources, and went further to disallow prices in the article lead, and the use of primary source price databases as the sole source of a price figure. This RFC conclusion satisfies the core of the dispute, and has been confirmed again by the closing admin

The edit warring by James and Ozzie10aaaa that sparked Barkeep's request is not a recent feature (and previously involved the currently blocked QuackGuru). There have been two dozen conflicts over many years, where multiple editors have had their policy-based attempts to remove prices from drug articles thwarted by a swift revert by James. The edit war at Simvastatin on the 30th was a disgraceful rejection of the RFC result. The five editors that James and Ozzie10aaaa reverted (WhatamIdoing, SandyGeorgia, Graham Beards, Hipal/Ronz, Seraphimblade) are James's peers, equals, and have collectively decades of Wikipedia wisdom, experience and hard earned respect in editing medical topics. James showed them no respect, reverting them all (with Ozzie10aaaa's per-Doc-James help). My own single edit to Ethosuximide was made after extensive discussion at the RFC and unanimous (including James) support that the price claim made was untenable. It was rejected and the claim restored by James within hours -- edit summary "Adjusted".

James frequently takes an idiosyncratic interpretation of our sources and policy. Where policy requires commentary in mainstream media sources and rejects passing mention, James offers passing mention in a specialist textbook and a single Italian retail price from twenty years ago. When the RFC disallowed the use of a primary source database of product prices, James took the PDF export of that database and claimed it was a "recognised standard textbook by experts in a field" (i.e., a tertiary source).

James believes "we have a very strong lobby which wishes to suppress pricing information but we are not censored", and he is engaged in a battle to include prices on all drug articles. Editors who remove prices are "pushing the industry position to try to WP:CENSOR Wikipedia". James claims "Ongoing lawsuits by industry to prevent having to disclose the price in commercials. Obviously that demonstrates that they are of encyclopedic value". The battle justifies edit warring with peers, ignoring policy and rejecting the outcome of two RFCs.

Statement by Doc James

Thanks User:Barkeep49 for opening this. While the prior RfC came to a conclusion against including numerical prices in the lead. The conclusion was not for removal of all pricing information generally (despite this some appear to interpret the conclusion that way). Additionally it does not come to a conclusion around using none numerical expressions of cost in the lead. Hopefully the current RfCs will clarify some of that.

With respect to behavioral issues, they stretch much farther back than this issue as discussed at the ANI in Dec of 2019 with respect to Colin. Unfortunately the behavioral issues were refactored as a content issue. An atmosphere has been created over the last number of months / years at WPMED that makes many editors hesitant to engage in discussions as they are concerned that the great attention Colin directs towards me will be turned their direction.

On Dec 2nd I requested that Colin stop pinging me.(Dec 2nd at 19:04) I had previously requested, a number of years back that they not post on my talk page, which they also did not follow. Colin "replied to this request: James As long as you won't drop this issue, you'll get pinged whenever I mention your name." and he not only pinged me in the reply but continued pinging.

After being brought to ANI and being threatened with a block they backed down. SandyGeorgia was the first one to respond and did not appear to have any concerns with their behavior. She has continued on the pinging tradition with 6 pings today, all to bring my attention to a single discussion I was obviously watching. Sandy has criticized me multiple times for requesting unwanted pings to stop, today stating "you disallowed pings and were not keeping up with discussion".

When the harassment team initial stated they were developing a tool to silence unwanted pings, I did not think such as thing was needed as I assumed all one would ever have to do was politely ask. I have now changed my position on this and fully support the development of such a tool.

@User:Newyorkbrad agree not the best timing for some of us. @Agree with User:DGG. We are also having a disagreement over what language such as "little" means with some claiming a multiple page discussion of prices is still "little". Some are attempting to apply to this topic area "rules" we would never apply to anything else just because some editors do not like this content.

Other issues include... Disagreement with the position to write for a general audience. Some disagree with ongoing work to collaborate between languages. Some disagree with attempts to innovate around the types of content we provide. And some disagree with my involvement generally. If we decide to address this after the current pandemic that is not unreasonable but I imagine we will be back to address the ongoing behavioral problems. The speed at which, by who, and with the degree of pointedness that the RfC conclusions were raised at WT:MED makes that clear.

Parsing this sentence "Where secondary sources discuss pricing extensively (insulin being a frequently cited example), that information may be worth including in the article; where there is little discussion of pricing in secondary sources, it generally should not be included." I interpret it to mean as long as we have secondary sources that extensively discussion costs / prices it can be included.

This "Where pricing information is included, claims should be sourced to reliable, secondary sources and not solely primary source data from price databases." I do not take that to mean that the price database cannot be used ever. If that was the case it would say this source published by the World Health Organization should never be used despite MEDRS stating source from the WHO are among the ideal.

Yes WAID's summary of the close is completely different than how I would interpret the summary. It is interesting to note that 24% of text in the prior RfC was from Colin, 22% from WAID and 15% from Sandy (three people wrote >60% of the bytes). Easy to see how that may not represent community consensus or how suppressing other opinions may be occurring.

Statement by QuackGuru

Statement by SandyGeorgia

Go forward, with flexibility for COVID-related timing issues. James has time; if not, he could make time by leaving space for others to edit, rather than exercising control across the spectrum of medical content. The drug pricing dispute is the latest symptom (among many) of OWNERSHIP affecting WPMED, with behavior furthered by enablers, who showup with no policy-based reasoning in James' RFC proliferation where !voting is preferenced over discussion, and winning is preferenced over policy. Driving this division-- and desire to "win" over content in the lead of Every Single Medical Article-- are differences about on-en.Wikipedia policy-based editing versus external (non-en.Wikipedia) projects, that use leads only of medical articles, and expect them to be written differently than Wikipedia policy supports. Proponents are typically convinced they are saving lives by re-writing leads to the neglect of overall content, and justify that as the reason for ignoring policy.

The case name is inadequate; this advocacy editing extends beyond drug pricing, and disallows others from enjoying editing to produce policy-based and accurate, timely medical text-- something the Medicine Project once excelled at. One editor has exercised control over inconceivable amounts of content, often edit warring, editing always too quickly, making customary editing errors while trying to do too much, too fast counting on RFC !voting whenever pushback occurs, and furthering inaccurate representations of others' behavior (example, the misrepresented pinging description).

Granting "exceptional" leeway on timing to one editor will further the long-standing problems. Dozens of editors spent FOUR months formulating and participating in an RFC. One group scarcely engaged, so the "need to act on that" time is upon us. Deferring to an editor who scarcely engaged in DR about volumes of non-policy-compliant text added by him will not address the recurring behavioral issues proliferating across all areas of medical content, and causing several experienced editors (including editors who helped form the history and reputation of WPMED) to stop editing.

I advocated a methodical approach to implementation of a useful RFC. James disregarded the community-wide RFC, launching two new RFCs of his own. In good faith, when specifically asked at the ANI if James should be topic banned, I suggested trying an RFC. Only as the RFC evolved did I understand that the alleged broad drug pricing dispute never existed; it was only two editors (Bluerasberry and Doc James, in a few instances backed in editwarring by QuackGuru and Ozzie10aaaa, sometimes by Jytdog), and we should have been examining that behavior. No more RFCs.

There are considerable issues going back many years. Measures to address one aspect of a larger problem have proven unsuccessful. Considering the number of parties and issues, word limits will be a problem.

  • @DGG:, I don't know if I am allowed to respond to you, since I am at my word limit. Could someone please explain how word limits apply to responding to arb queries? Re deferring on timing, that is precisely what I mean about preferencing "exceptional" editors who didn't bother to participate in the RFC over all of the rest of us who gave four months to this-- our Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's and Valentine's-- while James and others largely ignored the RFC. Those editors who are supposedly SO busy are overtaxed because of the very OWNERSHIP issue, that has caused the rest of us to leave the Medicine Project, which has caused medical content OVERALL, including coronavirus, to suffer. We All Count. The truth is MOST medical editors are not involved in COVID editing, which is largely not medical content at this point-- it's politics and tallying numbers. It is unfair, after we gave four solid months, that we would be expected to continue editing in such a toxic environment, or that our time should be devalued, or that we should now be expected to ALSO give up our summers, at a time when we may be released from stay-at-home. And this furthers the "exceptional" treatment often granted to one user. No, I do not want to give my entire summer to another attempt to break through a solid wall of IDHT. Please do not postpone this case; that will only continue the misery. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:07, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
  • When summer comes along, and you all are ready to address the case, while I am away at my cabin, are you then going to also allow me an exception, and extend the case until winter, when I have editing time? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:21, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
@Beeblebrox: the reasons this cannot be solved by motion are too extensive to explain in a 500-word limit. Any kind of motion to stop the impediments to dispute resolution will not address the bigger picture, which is long-standing issues due to non-en.wikipedia factors dominating en.Wikipedia dispute resolution processes and content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
More information Back and forth about SandyGeorgia's request for DGG's recusal. DGG has refused to recuse. The next step is for SandyGeorgia to email arbcom-l to "refer the request to the Committee for a ruling" if she would like to appeal DGG's refusal. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 19:05, 7 April 2020 (UTC) ...
Close

Statement by Seraphimblade

A lengthy RfC was just concluded a couple of days ago. However, its effects are substantial and apparently still in some cases unclear, so that is still being sorted. Since that is at heart a content matter, I do not see how arbitration will be anything but an impediment to that process. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:33, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by WhatamIdoing

Timing: Some of us apparently have time to edit-war and to start multiple RFCs to try to vote against the RFC, so we have time to talk about it.

Whether we should be here yet: I don't think so. If you look at Doc James' comment here, which mentions only the first of the 10 sentences in the closing statement, and his recent editing, which does seem to mostly ignore the other nine sentences, I think it shows how this might be solvable without ArbCom's intervention. This would require a few hours from User:Wugapodes and User:Ymblanter to re-write the closing statement in WP:BRADSPEAK, as a list of required or prohibited statements. For example, it could be re-written something like this (NB purely an example of style, not real content):

More information Original first bullet point, Potentially clearer version ...
Original first bullet pointPotentially clearer version
  • Editors are generally opposed to inclusion of prices in the lede. While basic calculations are not considered original research, the pricing statements in the examples require interpretation of primary sources that may not be straightforward. This makes the editorial claims difficult to verify, and especially so for drugs whose prices are not widely discussed in published sources. In addition, there are concerns that proper explanation of the situation for the indicated price would give the price undue weight.
  1. Content of the lede:
    • Drug prices may not be mentioned in the lede in most articles about drugs. Prices may be mentioned in the lede only under exceptional circumstances, such as an especially high price or claims of price gouging. For the avoidance of doubt, "exceptional circumstances" are likely to be present in less than 10% of drug articles.
    • Prices may not be mentioned in the lede unless the price is already discussed in significantly greater detail in the body of the article.
  2. Use of MSH's International Medical Products Price Guide database: Remove all uses of this database. There is a clear consensus that using this complex, primary-source drug price database requires interpretation by Wikipedia editors that is not straightforward, and therefore using that source is not permitted under the core content policies. The good-faith attempt to use it has led to widespread WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:NOTPRICE violations. Using it accurately would require a lengthy description in articles, which would result in WP:WEIGHT violations. Editors therefore may not use the IMPPG database to support drug price content in any article.
    • Editors may, however, cite other reliable sources that use this database.
Close

The end result would be long, but it would make it easier for editors to understand what to do, and it would clear up theconfusion about whether the deprecated database can be "redeemed" by adding another sentence that's cited to a NOTPRICE-compliant source.

The level of confusion: I particularly hope that ArbCom members will look at this short discussion. The relevant facts are:

  • The second sentence from the RFC conclusion is "While basic calculations are not considered original research, the pricing statements in the examples [i.e., content sourced to the IMPPG database] require interpretation of primary sources that may not be straightforward."
  • Simvastatin had a sentence sourced to the IMPPG. As it's not allowed per the second sentence, I removed it.
  • Doc James restored it because he didn't think that picking and choosing which parts of which database records we took the content from counted as "interpretation" of the database. The discussion at Talk:Simvastatin#In depth discussion is me listing off all the interpretations he made (plus one outright error).

That's where we are right now. Aside from perhaps lending their moral weight to say that the outcome really is the outcome, I think ArbCom's intervention will be less useful than expanding the RFC closing statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Statement by AlmostFrancis

It looks like this will be accepted but I would ask the arbitrators to really think how they would explain this to people indifferent to the inner workings of Wikipedia. You have decided to take the time of an ER doctor in the middle of a pandemic who happens to spend his free time updating the world on the ongoing pandemic, which they do without pay. The only reason there has not been an article in the press on this is because the ER Doc happens to care more about Wikipedia than his own well being. I implore you in every possible way to accept this case if you feel it is necessary but to delay it until August. Pass whatever temp content ban you need. As someone who spends little time on Wikipedia I implore you to consider how working against a pandemic will cause real harm to actual people. Sorry it has come to this and I wish you and your families well. AlmostFrancis (talk) 02:29, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Avicenno

Statement by bluerasberry

I would like to request delay on this topic until further notice due to COVID-19. This issue concerns WikiProject Medicine and the focus of that project right now is COVID-19. The primary outcome of this issue being discussed anywhere will be distraction from developing COVID-19 content. The matter of price is not urgent and has been pending for years. No harm comes from postponement. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by CFCF

I will request Wikipedia:Courtesy vanishing. I no longer have the time or energy to edit Wikipedia. Carl Fredrik talk 14:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I have taken a few days to rethink. My hospital is operating at 200% ICU capacity, soon to open an exhibition hall south of Stockholm with 1000+ beds. I have offered my help from March 16 ahead of the predicted peak. This is a stressful time for me — in which I had planned to prepare by getting some COVID-19 editing done. I anticipate not being able to edit soon.
In the newly opened WT:MED discussion I indicated that the current timing might cause systematic bias and potentially lead to incomplete consensus. I asked Colin and others to proceed with caution, preferably delaying much needed discussion. I was castigated by SandyGeorgia for "personalizing", with Colin expressing: Carl, it is clear what you are doing here. Get over it, move on. I do not intend to discuss the matter further with you.
If ArbCom chooses to take this up, I will likely not take part, but would hope for a broad scope.
Carl Fredrik talk 18:45, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Hipal/Ronz

I'm stunned by the behavior I've been seeing related to pricing across Wikipedia in order to support some sort of broad exception to content policies. It needs to stop, but it appears ArbCom is the only way it's going to. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@DGG: I believe editors are ignoring and misrepresenting the results of the RfC (even in this Case page) in order to continue to push article content against consensus and policy, including pricing content in the lede of articles. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 20:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Ozzie10aaaa

I would indicate the wise statement from Blue Rasberry would like to request delay on this topic until further notice due to COVID-19. This issue concerns WikiProject Medicine and the focus of that project right now is COVID-19. The primary outcome of this issue being discussed anywhere will be distraction from developing COVID-19 content.....I thank you for your time--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

(With regard to Colin's indication ...I agree w/ Doc James, it should be checked in my edits that 1. I have on several occasions "agree w/ WAID [WhatAmIDoing]" (on other articles/matters) , 2. as well as many other editors...I don't/never will write a "wall of text", I usually keep it simple, 3. and most important I don't always agree w/ Doc James, therefore I do not support/do not comment on the article/matter whatever it might be, thank you--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC))

Statement by RexxS

I was involved in a lot of the discussion and prior to the RfC, and had several unpleasant arguments with Colin as usual. I wasn't happy with the leading nature of the RfC questions, which invited a particular conclusion. However, the RfC started when I was busy with other things, and by the time I had time to look at the RfC, I found that Colin was bludgeoning editors who opposed his proposal as usual, and I didn't feel I had the time for the usual back-and-forth that everybody who disagrees with Colin has to go through. I see that the RfC concluded with 40 comments from Colin.

As for the immediate complaint, like many other medical editors, I think that the cost of a drug (or range of costs) is an encyclopedic fact. The reason that WP:NOT mentions prices is to avoid the encyclopedia being turned into a series of adverts where "Acme widgets at $4.95" are being touted as cheaper than "Vanilla widgets at $5.00". It is not meant as a weapon to suppress valid reader interest in what drugs might actually cost to purchase, either wholesale or retail. Of course, we need quality sources to support any factual claim in an encyclopedia, but once we have prices being discussed in reliable independent sources, we should be able to incorporate those discussions into Wikipedia.

The second bullet point in the close of the RfC states

There is no consensus on whether drug prices should be included in articles at all. Where secondary sources discuss pricing extensively (insulin being a frequently cited example), that information may be worth including in the article; where there is little discussion of pricing in secondary sources, it generally should not be included. Drugs which fall into the grey area between these extremes should be discussed on a case-by-case basis. Where pricing information is included, claims should be sourced to reliable, secondary sources and not solely primary source data from price databases.

and that's where the contention continues. James and Colin have very different interpretations of "information may be worth including", "discussed on a case-by-case basis" and "should be sourced to reliable, secondary sources". The understanding of what those mean in particular cases needs to be established by consensus at affected articles, and any request for arbitration should not be undertaken until those consensuses have been established. You only have to look at Talk:Simvastatin to see how even innocuous statements like "Simvastatin is relatively low cost" are being challenged by editors wanting to remove all discussion of pricing. Those sort of content issues need to be resolved first.

Unless ArbCom want to rule on content and clarify in detail the meaning of the RfC closure, I contend that there's nothing behavioural that is ripe for arbitration at present. --RexxS (talk) 17:26, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

More information Preliminary statements by uninvolved editors. ...
Close

Preliminary decision

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrators' opinions on hearing this matter (8/0/0)

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

  • Before reaching the substance of the request, is this the best timing given the obvious other issues currently preoccupying editors of medical articles? Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
  • I would like to confirm that I understand the question at issue: the RfC seems to have settled that prices were not to be included in the lede nor, usually, in the infobox. It left unresolved the question of whether they should be covered in the article, or to what extent. The recent disputes have been over that issue. Are we being asked to resolve that?--because I cannot see how that's within our scope. DGG ( talk ) 18:24, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, I would also like it to be made clearer exactly what we are being asked to decide, we certainly aren't going to start meddling with content. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:08, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept as Medicine. We can't directly settle the content dispute of course, but there are clearly also long-running conduct disputes here, and problems like how to edit in the absence of consensus are subject to relevant conduct policies. A broader scope looking at conduct around the medicine topic, and especially WP:MED, seems appropriate, and might help divert the focus from a specific content dispute. @Barkeep49: I think you (or others) can feel free to add more involved parties directly to the case request. – Joe (talk) 10:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
The timing is not great, but unfortunately I think if we postpone until the COVID crisis is over, we will be essentially postponing indefinitely. We can always extend the usual deadlines if that makes things easier for the parties. – Joe (talk) 10:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept - agree arbcom does not rule on content, but what we have here is a protracted problem area with numerous attempts at resolution. What we do review and sanction is behaviour that stymies attempts at consensus-building. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:41, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept Maxim(talk) 14:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
If we are going to have a broad scope, we may need to delay it at least a month in order not to burden editors involved with the current emergency -- we might consider a preliminary injunction DGG ( talk ) 16:49, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept per Cas. Katietalk 13:11, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept as Medicine, particularly to look at the broader conduct issues that may be getting in the way of consensus-building throughout the medicine topic area. As far as timing goes I think we should start the case now, with the understanding that if we need to draw things out to accommodate people's busy schedules we have the ability to do so. – bradv🍁 15:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept — while it does look like further consensus-building would be helpful to solve the content issues, there appears to be enough friction interrupting that meriting a case. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:43, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept. I'm reasonably convinced that there is a problem here that needs our intervention to resolve it, but also open to the idea that we might not need a full case and we may be able to do something by motion that would be effective. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:58, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Accept. I'm certainly willing to be flexible with timing wrt the COVID-19 situation. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:19, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Temporary injunction (none)

Final decision

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