Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shibu Chacko

Shibu Chacko

Shibu Chacko (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Chacko's claim to notability is that he was one of the 399 people who received a MBE in 2019, the lowest grade of all five Order of the British Empire awards that were given to a total of 1,073 people in the same year. He received some coverage for that by some newspapers in 2019, but the coverage was not WP:SUSTAINED.

Clearly, this is not the type of award that makes someone notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article, and I doubt that all other 1,072 mostly ordinary British citizens (list) who received the same general-purpose award or better in the same year are also notable. Badbluebus (talk) 16:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Medicine, India, and United Kingdom. Badbluebus (talk) 16:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Kerala and England. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:02, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Weak delete. Little sign of SNGs. As far as GNG, there is some press coverage, all around the MBE. While some of it goes into a bit of detail, I think this still falls under WP:BLP1E. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 09:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  I note that the article originator has been blocked for sock puppetry. Enough other editors have worked on the article that I think it's a little unlikely that it qualifies for G5 speedy deletion. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 09:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

• Weak delete with a little regret. Subject has clearly done good work encouraging people to sign up as organ donors, but the only coverage which profiles him is triggered by the award of an MBE, mainly in local, trade and community press/media, which routinely mines the awards for anyone in their locality/trade/community. We don't have independent coverage before or since, which we normally see for notable persons ("notable" in the Wikipedia sense). The MBE itself can't confer notability automatically; as noted above, it's the lowest state honour in the UK, and it is also the commonest, with 9,518 awards from December 2014 to June 2024 (total of "All - Including Unknown" for MBEs in downloadable spreadsheet). Personally, I thank Shibu Chacko for their achievement and hope this will later seem merely the start of a long and fruitful career. NebY (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  Standing for Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, MBE is the third highest ranking Order of the British Empire level (excluding a knighthood/damehood), behind CBE and then OBE. Not the lowest state of Honour in the UK as claimed in this section. See reference below

  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/awards-and-accreditation/content/103372 Shinomol (talk) 16:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's the third highest out of three. The lowest. As shown on the Gazette page you linked. Your assertion that Not the lowest state of Honour in the UK (sic) is contrary to the very source you just provided. All this is doing is reinforcing the point that this person does not as yet meet Wikipedia's notability requirements. You have convinced me that there'll be no point in my spending more time on this. NebY (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  I would suggest you do your research first before making false claims. BEM is the lowest rank, not MBE . Sorry this is my last message to your malicious attempts to take this page down. I am not willing to waste my valuable time by engaging with these kinds of individuals at all; I have got patients to look after. Defending this page is not my priority. Best wishes for all your continued efforts. (Malicious obviously) Shinomol (talk) 19:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep: After analyzing the entry and reading all the references, I agree that he passes GNG. More than enough news coverage suggested above and at the article, I'm convinced the person is notable and worth keeping on Wikipedia.  I assess as probably reliable, covering multiple events / aspects of this WP:BLP. Keep, monitor for neutrality and overdetail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.155.200.34 (talk) 08:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC) — 119.155.200.34 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep: The process for nominating someone to receive an MBE is a very complex process and can take upto 2 years. The government and the various departments will go through rigorous checking during this process. All nominees will be checked by various government departments to make sure they’re suitable for an honour. I can see Chacko has gone through this process and received the honour. He is the first South Indian in UK to receive this honor, and he is the first Indian to work as a Donor Ambassador in the UK as well. The course he created is already completed by over 9000 individuals from all over the world. So I certainly recommend keeping this page live in view of the special achievements Chacko has gained. He is true inspiration to all the South Indians in the UK in terms of professional growth in Nursing, Research, Career Guidance and inservice education. Best wishes Mr Chacko Shinomol (talk) 14:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC) — Shinomol (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  Nominating someone for an MBE is not a very complex process at all - start here. One of our sources says he "will become the youngest Malayalee ever to receive an MBE (Most Excellent Order of the British Empire) from the Queen", which is a long way from being the first South Indian in UK to receive this honor. "Donor ambassador" is a term recently invented for health workers who encourage other people to sign up as donors; it doesn't have any particular distinction. NebY (talk) 15:18, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Certainly agree with you; any one can make a nomination. But one certainly need to understand the process after receiving the nomination. Its a through process by the UK government, not all tom dick and harry will get through the process. You can refer to the process followed by the UK government here. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-the-honours-system-works

  I can certainly feel your attitude towards a healthcare worker in your last sentence. Being a healthcare worker, I can certainly understand the value of such titles such as donor ambassadors, because they really make a real difference to several peoples lives. One should be in their shoes to understand the value of the work healthcare workers do especially in organ donation and transplantation as they work with real life scenarios everyday - life and death on a daily basis. It may not have any particular value, importance or distinction for lay people who doesnt have any medical knowledge or understand what is going on behind scenes. Shinomol (talk) 15:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  (edit conflict)Further re the first South Indian in UK to receive this honor: we have, for example, articles on M. V. Narasimha Rao and S. Muthiah, neither one relying on their MBEs for notability. NebY (talk) 15:46, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  In response to the comment, it's important to clarify that while M. V. Narasimha Rao and S. Muthiah do not rely on their MBEs for notability, their achievements and contributions in other significant areas—such as sports and writing—elevate their prominence, with the MBE serving as an additional recognition of their impact. In the case of the individual under discussion, being the first South Indian to receive an MBE in the UK holds unique professional, and cultural significance. This milestone could be considered a notable achievement in itself, given its contribution to the UK healthcare especially organ donation and transplantation.

  The individual's distinction as the first South Indian recipient of this honor may highlight not only personal achievements but also wider societal progress, particularly in the context of Organ Donation awareness and the role played in the educational campaigns. Thus, while an MBE alone may not confer automatic notability, the social and healthcare context and pioneering nature of this honor for a particular community could be a valid factor in establishing the subject's notability for a Wikipedia entry. Shinomol (talk) 15:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  I see no evidence that Shibu Chacko was the first South Indian recipient of this honor. NebY (talk) 15:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  You could rephrase this to first Malayalee if that claim is too broad. Shinomol (talk) 16:01, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  I see no evidence that Shibu Chacko was the first Malayalee. NebY (talk) 16:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Can you share any other malayalees names? Shinomol (talk) 16:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Right. You're making claims that you can't substantiate. I see no point in discussing this further. NebY (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  I am also disinclined to continue this conversation with you. If you assert that Shibu Chacko is not the first Malayalee to receive the MBE honours, it is essential that you provide evidence to substantiate this claim, rather than diminishing my argument and avoiding further discussion. Shinomol (talk) 16:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Past consensus in AfD discussions has generally been that an MBE does not suffice for notability, although of course it also does not prevent notability. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 15:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that an MBE alone may not automatically meet the threshold for notability under Wikipedia guidelines. However, it is important to consider that while an MBE itself does not confer notability, it can be an indicator of broader achievements and public impact on healthcare outcomes, especially when coupled with significant contributions in other fields such as training, volunteering and organ donation campaigns. Thank you Shinomol (talk) 15:59, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Shinomol is a confirmed sock of Shibuchakson, who declared here to have a conflict of interest regarding the subject of this AfD. See WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Monophile. Badbluebus (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Shinomol is not acting for Mr Chacko nor a proxy for anyone. I know Mr Chacko professionally as a Organ Donation Coordinator in my role as a senior nurse in intensive care. I was fortunate to work with Mr Chacko while facilitating several organ doantion operations and attended the classes organised by him as well. You can verify my identity through nhs credentials if required. I am unable to share those here. Shinomol (talk) 17:35, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep: He meets WP:BASIC He was awarded a MBE in the Queen's Birthday Honours list for the work he did with the promotion of organ donation among the minority communities in the UK, he being accorded the MBE recognition for his services within the NHS Trusts in the United Kingdom. He also has reliable coverages for verifiability some of which are 123456 Isha Sattar (talk) 01:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  User Isha Sattar only has 18 edits and previously !voted keep at the AfD of an article created by Monophile, the same sockpuppet of Zimidar that created Shibu Chacko. Just like Jxggii and Fayyazwill, their first edits on Wikipedia were related to redirect requests. Badbluebus (talk) 21:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: With only the weak deletes from experienced editors, I think we need more discussion. I have semi'ed the page to allow for that
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 02:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete. The only coverage seems to be about the MBE, and there are thousands of recent recipients. Simply having a popular course and an award is not grounds for an article, however interesting the story may be - this makes it arguably WP:NSUSTAINED. If it is true that he is the first south Indian to recieve this award then my decision would instead be a weak keep, but as a user above noted, there is no evidence for this. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 07:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete. This page on the subject is surrounded by sources on MBE WP:BLP1E but numerous have got this award. This one time award I do not believe is significant enough to warrant a page on the subject. If there is something more worthy of notice with sources with significant coverage on the subject, I would reconsider my vote. RangersRus (talk) 12:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
• COMMENT: The process for nominating an individual for an MBE (Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire) is highly complex and can take up to two years. This involves thorough and rigorous scrutiny by various governmental departments to ensure that all nominees are suitable for such an honour. It is evident that Dr. Shibu Chacko has successfully undergone this process and received the prestigious award. Notably, he is the first Keralite in the UK to be honoured in this way and the first Indian to serve as a Donor Ambassador in the UK Healthcare and still working. The course he designed is endorsed by the Royal College of Surgeons and Department of Health, which has already been completed by over 8500 individuals from around the world, further demonstrates his significant contributions to education and healthcare. In light of these exceptional achievements, I strongly recommend retaining this Wikipedia page. Dr. Chacko serves as a true inspiration to South Indians in the UK, particularly in the areas of professional advancement in nursing, research, career guidance, and in-service education. He remains actively engaged in organ donation campaigns and leads the charity Donate Life UK, making him a prominent and influential figure in this field. https://www.facebook.com/DLIFEUK/ Shinomol (talk) 16:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)— Duplicate !vote: Shinomol (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.
• Delete. There is no consensus that an MBE constitutes a WP:ANYBIO-eligible award, and that's the only thing that the subject has received any coverage for, making it a case of WP:BLP1E. Fails WP:GNG, WP:NBIO. Dclemens1971 (talk) 01:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.