Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 1

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose renaming:

• Category:Years in the United States by state to Category:Years in the United States by state or territory
• Category:1776 in the United States by state to Category:1776 in the United States by state or territory
• Category:1777 in the United States by state to Category:1777 in the United States by state or territory
• Category:1778 in the United States by state to Category:1778 in the United States by state or territory
• Category:1779 in the United States by state to Category:1779 in the United States by state or territory
• Category:1780 in the United States by state to Category:1780 in the United States by state or territory

Nominator's rationale: rename all years, decades, and centuries as not all in these categories are states. For example, Category:1826 in Michigan Territory, Category:1826 in Arkansas Territory, etc. See history Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_July_13#United_States_locations resulted in rename to "by state or territory". –Aidan721 (talk) 23:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• @GoldRingChip, DexDor, Number 57, EurekaLott, Peterkingiron, Marcocapelle, Oculi, Place Clichy, Grutness, Googol30, StarTrekker, and Hmains: pinging many participants of previous discussion. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Rename. Definitely an improvement! It is OK to diffuse large categories on a geographical basis. It is less OK to forget places like Washington D.C., historic territories and insular areas. Australian, Indian, Canadian categories etc. always go by state or territory or the equivalent, I welcome every attempt to rename U.S. categories in this fashion. Place Clichy (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Rename. Makes sense, especially given that for many of the older categories, modern states were still territories. Grutness...wha? 01:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Rename, in line with the mere existence of territories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:41, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose but rename to Category:Year in the United States or Unites States insular area based on definitions of 1) What constitutes the US? Washington DC is in the United States and the 50 states^[1], ^[2] The US includes DC, and 2) What are Insular Areas? Territories, commonwealths, Associated States ^[3] The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 09:47, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• I realized I seemed to have voted twice but this I moved up to here now. -->So adding this from bottom of discussion to here. Oppose but Rename just have to find the correct rename. DC wouldn't fit in there if we went with the current rename proposed and neither would places like Marshall Islands, Micronesia, and Palau fit if we rename the category to "...by state or territory" The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 23:08, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sub-categories of the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, and Palau are typically not categorized under the the United States structure due to their status as a freely associated state, so this is not much of an issue. For example, Category:2023 in the Marshall Islands is not categorized in Category:2023 in the United States. –Aidan721 (talk) 12:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Even though they are insular areas?^[3] This begs the question on preference. Across WP, some cat trees say, and I'm paraphrasing, "by US insular area" and some say "by territory"; so what are the differences here? Why have some editors preferred to use "by territory" and some preferred to use "by insular area"? I know we can't speak for other editors but can we rehash the difference? Is it just a matter of using less words: 1 word vs 2 words, preferring a shorter category name? or is it because we don't want to include the Freely Associated States and that's why we avoid Insular area? or does it all depend on the situation that is being categorized? When the category is named "by insular area", it must be because then we do want to include the Freely Associated States (Micronesia, etc.)--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 12:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

  Also are only sovereign states considered countries on Wikipedia categories? Sometimes PR, Guam, etc. show up and should show up as countries as well. The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Feminist, William Allen Simpson, Mercy11, Bearcat, Bibliomaniac15, Hugo999, Tassedethe, Laurel Lodged, and Oculi: pinging many participants of previous discussion. (I'm simply helping as User:Aidan721 did, by pinging more participants from previous discussions.) The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 10:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment - The Cfds related to PR are not showing up on the Puerto Rico project article alerts. I don't know how to fix that. Does anyone who is willing - know how to do that. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 14:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  No categories related to Puerto Rico were nominated. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nomination and to better accommodate places like D.C. and Puerto Rico. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:31, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment perhaps look at how the US Census groups places: 1) Washington DC and the 50 states (image not included), 2) see (image)

  

  . Renaming ... "... by state" would include Washington DC (even though it's not a state). The nominator states to rename "... by territory" /// but of these (see image "FIPS State Codes for the Outlying Areas of the United States and the Freely Associated States") not all of these are territories. So the category ".. by states" would include DC, which is not a state and the category"...by territory" would include the Freely Associated States (which are not territories). That is my point. We could add a "caveat" to the top of the category explaining those nuances if we went with the renaming proposal by the nom. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:The Catherine Tate Show characters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only one character is contained in this category, and thus there doesn't seem to be much merit to keeping this around. Pokelego999 (talk) 23:35, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete for now without prejudice to recreation if the category can be populated with at least five articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:43, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 01:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Indian Tamil actors of Sri Lanka to Category:Indian Tamils of Sri Lanka and Category:Sri Lankan actors

Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to this discussion and this discussion, where categories of Sri Lankan actors of all other ethnicities were upmerged. I don't know why this one was overlooked, but I do not see a reason to treat it differently. @LaundryPizza03, Qwerfjkl, Marcocapelle, RevelationDirect, and William Allen Simpson: pinging participants. Place Clichy (talk) 23:29, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per WP:NARROWCAT; this is one of many possible triple intersections, and there is only 1 page in the category. Most of the other subcategories of Category:Indian Tamils of Sri Lanka by occupation have similar problems or fail WP:OCEGRS; in fact, the only one with more than 4 entries is Category:Indian Tamil trade unionists of Sri Lanka. However, all of the biographies in the tree should be migrated to Category:Sri Lankan people of Indian Tamil descent. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Category:Indian Tamils of Sri Lanka (a merge target) is for people who identify with this ethnic group. Category:Sri Lankan people of Indian Tamil descent is for those who don't. Place Clichy (talk) 08:25, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose renaming Category:WikiProject Foo members to Category:WikiProject Foo participants for 994 Category:Wikipedians by WikiProject categories

Nominator's rationale: A common query that I encounter from newcomers is "how do I become a member of this WikiProject?" The answer, of course, is that you don't really have to do anything (other than adding your name to the directory if you want); just start participating. But this highlights a common misunderstanding, the idea that there is some sort of formal membership approval process for wikiprojects, and this misunderstanding can become a small barrier to entry for newcomers. Calling those who participate in a project "participants" rather than "members" is less likely to create this misunderstanding, while still being just as clear otherwise, so it seems better. Since 2007, Category:Wikipedians by WikiProject has been split between projects that use "participants" vs. those that use "members," with no clear distinction between them. Simplifying these by choosing just one term would improve consistency and reduce complexity (e.g. someone adding a category wouldn't need to remember/look up which term a given project uses), so we should be seeking standardization. And given its advantages, I propose that "participants" is the way to go. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:29, 18 September 2023 (UTC)^{Changed "X" to "Foo" to avoid confusion. 14:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)}

• Support. JonathanDP81 (talk) 17:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:50, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
• Procedural comment, there haven't been any categories formally nominated yet (i.e. listed in this nomination and category pages tagged), until that happens nothing can be moved for real. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:50, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Marcocapelle: Given that there are 1500 Wikipedian by WikiProject categories (many dormant), a sizable portion of which use "members," there would be quite a few pages to tag, so I was hoping that the notices I made above might suffice in lieu of individual tagging. If it is necessary to mark each page, I can try to tackle that in an AWB run. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 16:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  • @Sdkb: I can't tell if the notices may be enough, but surely a list of proposed renamings is needed for the closer of the discussion to feed to the bot. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:03, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

    Added full list now! Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:08, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  I assumed this was about Wikipedia:WikiProject X, but it seems I was wrong? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:56, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

  (Hi, Martin! 👋) Yeah, I had the same mental hiccup after seeing the message in my user talk page and following the link to this discussion. Perhaps a more evident placeholder notation could have been used. Waldyrious (talk) 09:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support a consistent style. Don't really care if it's "members" or "participants". Gonnym (talk) 09:59, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I originally closed this request as keep, bun ran into problems while moving the required category pages. I have undid my closure and am relisting this so that a more experienced editor/administrator can take over this request.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 23:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Now can somebody please go ahead and tag the categories? I believe Qwerfjkl has a handy script for it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  I've tagged all the categories and notified the category creators. Qwerfjkltalk 09:39, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• support (prompted by notification on my talk page) – a sensible change. --NSH001 (talk) 09:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. The rationale makes sense. --Waldyrious (talk) 09:54, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Strongly support. These have needed for a long time to be made WP:CONSISTENT, and in this direction in particular. The idea that wikiprojects are walled gardens with membership criteria and exclusive pools of editors is poisonous us-versus-them thinking, and has been a source of incredible amounts of awful drama. The very fact that we have to have WP:CONLEVEL policy is largely because of walled-garden behavior by wikiprojects leading to various ArbCom cases and other major fallout. The idea of WP having internal autonomous organizations with "memberships" was rejected firmly in MfD's shutting down of WP:ESPERANZA years ago. I'm amazed that this cleanup has taken this long to happen. After this category move, the various pages that list wikiproject participants as "members" also need to be renamed, and lots of projects instead have sections on their front pages that say "members" which should be changed to "participants".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support, the rationale makes sense. Best, --Fadesga (talk) 09:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support in principle per nom. The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 10:22, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: I am a long-time coordinator for a listed WikiProject and did not get any sort of notice about this. The wording and naming of many project pages, not just category pages, will be affected by this change (here's a quick search result showing about 11,000 affected pages, and there are no doubt more). This discussion should be listed at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion, and please do not use the confusing "WikiProject X" title when listing it there. – Jonesey95 (talk) 12:42, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  This section has been renamed to Category:WikiProject Foo members to avoid the confusion with WP:WPX (Special:Diff/1177217158, Special:Diff/1178228159). I've added an anchor with the old name to the heading so that the old incoming links will still continue to work. —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:00, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sdkb, please consider updating the wording of the first sentence of the nomination to use phrase "WikiProject Foo" correspondingly. —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:02, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Done; thanks for handling the heading. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 14:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Jonesey95's search link has the filtering by Template:Userbox, but there are some members subpages which don't utilize userboxes, like Wikipedia:WikiProject Cognitive science/Members. Here's another ~600 affected pages: search "intitle:Members intitle:WikiProject -hastemplate:Userbox" (minus hastemplate:Userbox). —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not quite sure procedurally what the best way to handle the other affected pages is — I don't think that's something CfD has the power to compel, but I also imagine that if this passes then there will be movement to align with the new standard. I'm happy for this to be listed at CENT if anyone feels it ought to be and decides to add it there. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 14:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  I am sure that there are thousands more affected pages if we want to change "members" to "participants" everywhere. I am not against a giant project like this and almost always favor consistency. I just want people to be aware of potential ramifications. I have posted a link at CENT, so we might get some fun traffic here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:13, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  I listed this discussion at CENT, but the link was removed by Edward-Woodrow. Given that this discussion could affect 1,000 category pages and somewhere around 10,000 other pages, I think it should be listed there, but I'm not going to edit war over it. If this CFD closes as "Move" with just fifteen or so participants, I think there will be backlash. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:00, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that wider discussion is probably warranted, but I think CENT is too high level. I will post a "please see" at VPP. Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:26, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  While changing from 'member' to 'participant' is a gentle cultural nudge, one that can be reasonably argued as a positive one, I don't think this category renaming (which I strongly support) should be construed to mean any WikiProject is compelled to make extensive changes to accommodate it, movement or not. It might be rather wrenching for a good number of projects to go through and make a change like this without, ahem, member consensus, er, participant consensus. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 14:22, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support renaming, the rationale makes sense to me. —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support I suppose, mainly so all the related cats have a consistent naming schema. Not all the categories need just renaming: some of the targets are already a dab cat, others already have members so this would be a merge. From the highlighting, Category:WikiProject Canoeing and Kayaking members does not seem to be correctly recognised as needing a rename. -- Mirokado (talk) 19:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  I've tagged that one. Now Idea how it was missed before. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:44, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - I think "members" actually encourages users to "join" and feel like they are apart of something. I also don't believe this is the appropriate venue to hammer this naming convention out. -- Ned Scott 21:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• It is the right venue (only here it can be implemented) but there should be a link from any other appropriate venues to here. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:39, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Strong Support. Consistency is one good reason to do this. Also, I'm a creator of a WikiProject and I've long since had the notion that a lot of project work may not happen because "membership" seems to suggest that joining a club has to occur before assistance on project tasks can occur, but not everyone wants to be a in a club to do helpful wiki editing. I'm fine with changing to "Participants", but continuing to have project people lists on a project subpage for those who want to state they work on specific aspects of a project, state to others they will be of assistance, or just want to show their pride of working on the project. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:05, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support; per nominator's rationale. Current titling is potentially misleading. Edward-Woodrow • talk 22:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support—"members" is rather exclusive. Tony (talk) 04:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Why was this closed when notifications to category creators just went out 13 hours ago, and it was listed on CENT for only about 8 hours? I recommend being careful with this one. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. Even though I concur with the renaming, this should have been extended another week so that everyone affected can get their thoughts in. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 23:10, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Frostly, I'd encourage re-opening. As snowy as the forecast is, this nomination has more complexity than a typical CfD, so it seems worthwhile to leave it open for a few days to provide extra assurance that the community is in consensus. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:19, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sdkb, thanks for the ping; reopened. — Frostly (talk) 23:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support This is a good proposal. --TadejM ^{my talk} 23:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose just causing a huge number of changes for very little benefit. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• First off, a blast from the past: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 January 31#"WikiProject Foo members" to "WikiProject Foo participants", again, which was never followed up on AFAIK. Now that the procedure is in order (I don't think this needed to be listed on CENT, by the way, merely tagging and notifying was sufficient), I see no reason not to support renaming.
  On individual cases:

  Algeria has two separate Category:WikiProject Algeria participants and Category:WikiProject Algeria members categories, and has apparently had them since 2014. The "participants" category is both older and has more detailed content than the "members" category, so it can just be processed as a merge.

  Awards is in the same situation, with Category:WikiProject Awards participants and Category:WikiProject Awards members being separate, with again the "particpants" category being preferable.

  Grafiti is in the same situation as above, except this time the "members" category is older, so Category:WikiProject Graffiti participants should be deleted, and the history of Category:WikiProject Graffiti members should be moved to that title.

  Ditto with italy. Category:WikiProject Italy members is both older and has more content that Category:WikiProject Italy participants.

  Category:WikiProject Jazz members and Category:WikiProject Jazz participants both exist. The former was apparently created because it was wanted, when the latter had existed for years.

  North Macedonia has an odd history - the "participants" category was created back in 2008, and the "members" category was created as a duplicate in 2011. On the other hand, the "members" category has a userbox table that should probably be preserved. Someone needs to decide what to do here. I also cleaned up some old Cydebot cut-and-pastes that were never history merged here.

  Venezuela has both categories, with the "participants" one being a 2018 wanted-categories creation after the "members" one had existed since 2007. The particpnats one should be deleted, and the "members" one moved over it.

If this rename had never been proposed then probably nobody would have noticed the duplicate trees here. So that's one advantage ... * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:44, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. We should avoid any impression that there's a barrier to entry for full participation in a WikiProject. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom and comments about an illusion of a barrier to entry. Consistency is good too. —Panamitsu (talk) 07:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support I think the suggestion that the term "member" actually creates a barrier is over-egging the argument (as is the oft-repeated and related refrain about "walled gardens"), but I don't see any harm in changing it. A fair amount of work I expect, but if someone is willing to do it, it's fine by me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:54, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support: "Members" makes it sound like a sign-up process, which it isn't. "Participants" sounds less exclusive. ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 12:51, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Why? InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support, although I also think anything labeled a "WikiProject" might seem like something that requires special access to an inexperienced editor. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:43, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Makes sense. Only today did AAlertBot alert WPCG of the change, for some reason. SWinxy (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose – I presume that becoming a "member" or "participant" is more about the mechanics of signing up rather the intimidation inherent in either term. Consistency isn't required here, and if it were why does the the supposedly more welcoming term have to be the much more verbose one? Why not just "editors"? Even if the connotations are verifiable, it should be okay for each wikiproject to be as welcoming or forbidding as it wishes. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support I suppose that would make the Wikiprojects more open to interested editors --Lenticel ^(talk) 00:39, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• 3/4 Strength Oppose, as it seems to be a difference in taste. My rationale isn't much better, as I feel like encouraging WikiProject membership allows for a positive self-identification among those involved and boosts the camaraderie among those passionate about a particular project. Referring to people as "participants" I feel sucks the life out of the idea, slightly. I acknowledge that can very well be a difference in taste, hence my weak oppose. I would much rather be a WikiProject "member", and I'd like to continue to call myself as such, rather than be labeled by the category as a "participant". Anyone can become a member, and as long as we continuously remind newcomers of that fact, I fail to see a problem with the status quo of the current category names. (The 3/4 is purely aesthetic) Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 01:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: I agree with the change in principle, but I am uncomfortable with making a meta-level decision here without the awareness of most of the people affected. If the process is taken slowly, with no rush to start the changes, I would support. --Chriswaterguy talk 03:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support This seems like a no-brainer when thinking about it. There have been numerous renaming of categories from WP:USERBOXES back in the day. Looking at the usage with WikiProjects today, participation in any WikiProject does not require "becoming" a member, it's all passive. I know there was an automated process from a bot that provided a list of active editors of the past 14-30 days using specific terms related to the WP. I don't see the massive number of cats an issue because this affects only Wikipedian categories. No different than any moves from cats within userboxes. – The Grid (talk) 14:05, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose – one can be a member, but not a participant. to me "participant" indicates taking an active role (which may be why I didnt like those darn participant ribbons in grade school). But anyone can be a member. Also this is a lot of categories to change, for a relatively flimsy reason. Salamurai (talk) 15:31, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• This is just one reason more in favour of the rename. Membership, in this case, is supposed to imply the willingness to take an active role. Membership with a deliberate desire to remain passive is useless for cooperation between editors to improve the encyclopedia. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:54, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Absolutely not what I am saying, and I don't appreciate having my words twisted. Salamurai (talk) 04:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, even though this won't solve the "clique" problem overnight, it's a step in the right direction. DFlhb (talk) 10:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support - consistency is good, and the OP makes a good point about the difference between a "member" and a "participant", particularly with the lack of a formal membership process. -- Imperator3733 (talk) 00:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support - per nom FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support for the sake of consistency. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support - this needs to be more consistent. Keres🌕Luna ^edits! 18:25, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Per lack of participation. NPASR. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:Ambassadors of the United Kingdom to Guinea-Bissau (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: as per WP:SMALLCAT. This ambassador position is actually a non resident one. LibStar (talk) 04:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Small cat also says."unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme" which ambassadors seems to follow. Mason (talk) 04:54, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 13:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Per lack of participation. NPASR. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose renaming Category:Indian dramatists and playwrights by language to Category:Dramatists and playwrights by language

Nominator's rationale: None of these categories are nationality specific, instead they all reflect Category:Dramatists and playwrights by language where the language happens to be common in India, and not indicative that that writer's nationality is Indian. Mason (talk) 00:07, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

• Keep as above. – Fayenatic London 09:54, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  Like above, how about dramatists and playwrights by language of India. its clunky, but I think that the nationality issue is problematic. Mason (talk) 14:19, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 13:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:07, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I am rather confused. The comments in this section seem to be referencing other comments. "None of these categories" when this section mentions only one and "Keep as above" when that is the only keep !vote visible. Has this become separated from a related discussion during the relisting? From Hill To Shore (talk) 08:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Comment. Other category is Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_September_22#Category:Indian_dramatists_and_playwrights_by_language Mason (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:Jewish presidents (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: WP:EGRS/I violation. Can in no way be construed as a defining intersection. Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:03, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Note: there is already a list List of Jewish heads of state and government. – Fayenatic London 20:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Expatriates of the Old Swiss Confederacy in France to Category:Swiss expatriates in France

Nominator's rationale: No need to distinguish between regimes, overlapping category Mason (talk) 22:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:50, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Stateless serial killers to Category:Stateless people

Nominator's rationale: small cat Mason (talk) 18:00, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:52, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 01:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:British police officers. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:British police officers by nationality to Category:British police officers

Nominator's rationale: unnecessary overcategorization Mason (talk) 15:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 21:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge, redundant category layer. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 01:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:36, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:People with psychopathy to Category:People with antisocial personality disorder

Nominator's rationale: Seems that the pagemaker @RealRyanElder recognizes that these categories overlap. " Added the “Categories for deletion” category because someone added all of the people in this category to the “People with antisocial personality disorder” one even though I specifically made this one as being a distinction from it. Ridiculous, honestly." per Mason (talk) 15:35, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Not sure, a number of these criminals have been classified as psychopathic based on e.g. the Psychopathy Checklist, I doubt if that counts as a full antisocial personality disorder diagnosis. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  Alternative would be to delete. Mason (talk) 20:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  I'd much prefer it to just be deleted unless someone wants to undo all the edits done by @Andrei Romanovich1936 because they are the one who, over the course of a day, readded the "People with antisocial personality disorder" category to all of the ones in which I replaced that with my "people with psychopathy" one and therefore rendering them indistinct from one another. RealRyanElder (talk) 14:33, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Bermudian physicians, without prejudice against recreation if the category can be populated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Bermudian general practitioners to Category:Bermudian physicians

Nominator's rationale: small cat, there's barely enough to populate the parent category Mason (talk) 15:30, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 22:15, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge for now, with no prejudice to recreation if the category can be populated with 5 articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:20, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 16:57, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:German expatriates in Overseas France
• Propose deleting Category:German expatriates in New Caledonia
• Propose deleting Category:German expatriate sportspeople in New Caledonia
• Propose deleting Category:West German expatriates in New Caledonia
• Propose deleting Category:West German expatriate sportspeople in New Caledonia

Nominator's rationale: Nest of categories containing only one article, Rudi Gutendorf. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 15:07, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete all per nomination WP:NARROWCATs. Edward-Woodrow • talk 15:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Delete all. This does not seem to be in any way defining. What is defining for Rudi Gutendorf is holding "a Guinness World Record for coaching 55 teams in 32 countries, across five continents." In the same year 1981 that Gutendorf briefly coached New Caledonia, he also coached no less than Australia, Nepal, Tonga and Tanzania's national football teams. Place Clichy (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Delete all, trivial characteristic in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Immigrants to Prussia. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Immigrants to the Kingdom of Prussia to Category:Immigrants to Prussia

Nominator's rationale: overlapping category Mason (talk) 14:54, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, one might argue that a split in 1701 makes sense because the former duchy of Prussia was way smaller than the kingdom but most articles in the target are 18th-century as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: no consensus. No prejudice against a full discussion on the Category:Discrimination in the Arab world tree. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Sexism in the Arab world to Category:Sexism in the Middle East
  • Purge Libya and Morocco (already in Category:Sexism in Africa)

Nominator's rationale: WP:OVERLAPCAT WP:REDUNDANTFORK WP:ARBITRARYCAT. Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Religion in the Arab world. NLeeuw (talk) 17:57, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

• Purge and merge per precedent. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose piecemeal removals from Category:Society of the Arab world. That has subcats Category:Discrimination in the Arab world and Category:Gender in the Arab world which would clearly lose a key element if this is removed. Those do include bridging articles such as Racism in the Arab world. As with the precedent for religion, the process would have more integrity if there was a group nomination of related topics. – Fayenatic London 10:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• Here it would be helpful to co-nominate Category:Discrimination in the Arab world and Category:Gender in the Arab world and selectively merge all three to Category:Society of the Arab world while that still exists. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:37, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Edward-Woodrow • talk 12:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Purge and merge to Category:Sexism in the Middle East, and merge to Category:Discrimination in the Arab world and Category:Gender in the Arab world absent any further action. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:02, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: the term "Middle East" is problematic, as it theoretically refers to south-central Asia, and is not synonymous with the Arab world, for which the historic equivalent is "Near East". Informally the two are frequently conflated, which makes using "Middle East" confusing, as it potentially includes everything from Western Sahara to Bangladesh. Certainly sexism exists everywhere, but the nature of sexism in say, Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh is qualitatively different from that in the Arab world, for cultural reasons—I'm not accusing one of being worse than the other, but they're different in terms of the reasons, background, and forms taken, as well as their effect on the sociopolitical condition of women (for instance, India and Pakistan have both elected women leaders; such a thing is almost unthinkable in the Arab world).

I also note that "Near East" probably should be read to include Turkey, Israel, and Iran, none of which have Arab majorities. Sexism in each of these countries varies in its similarity to discrimination by sex in the Arab world; probably most of all in Israel (excluding the occupied territories, which are almost entirely Arab), less in Turkey, which in theory is still a secular state, and most similar in Iran, as the preceding year's protests demonstrate, although there are still significant issues unique to women's situation there. Changing "the Arab world" to "the Middle East" doesn't solve any of these issues; it makes them worse.

Lastly, removing north African states from this category and merging them with categories about Africa instead plays into the false narrative of pan-Africanism unifying the cultures of the Mediterranean and Sahara region with those of sub-Saharan Africa, when they are very, very different. Long contact between the Arab world and parts of sub-Saharan Africa have led to some similarities—the dispersal of Islam, the Swahili language—but in most other respects all of the countries in the Arab world—perhaps the "Arabic-speaking world" would be more accurate—have more in common with one another than with sub-Saharan Africa. P Aculeius (talk) 15:36, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• • Comment The name of the category will define (or re-define) its geographic scope. Wikipedia's definition of the Middle East includes the "Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq." Wikipedia's definition of the Near East covers the entire East Mediterranean (West Asia, the Balkans and North Africa), "including the historical Fertile Crescent, the Levant, Anatolia, East Thrace and Egypt. The term was originally applied to the Ottoman Empire"". Dimadick (talk) 03:50, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
    • Note that there are just country subcategories in here. There aren't any overarching Sexism in the Arab world, Sexism in the Middle East, or Sexism in the Near East articles. So this is just a matter of putting countries where they belong: in a continent or a subcontinent. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
      • No, but this nomination would partly gut Category:Discrimination in the Arab world, which as stated above does include bridging articles. That hierarchy should be considered in nne go, rather than thinned out in piecemeal fashion. – Fayenatic London 21:20, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Purge and merge by precedent discussion. There is just too much unneeded overlap here. Nobody would deny that Arab World, Middle East, Near East, Levant, West Asia, South-West Asia all have different definitions. However, having overlapping schemes of so closely-related container categories only ends up in content being either omitted or put in duplicate categories. Place Clichy (talk) 08:12, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: Speedy delete per author request. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:SMS Prinz Adalbert (ship, 1876) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Eponymous category created just to overcategorize one image. As always, every image that gets uploaded to Wikipedia does not automatically get its own dedicated category just to contain itself -- images don't necessarily have to be filed in any categories that aren't automatically transcluded by their licensing templates in the first place, but if they are then they get categorized alongside other photos grouped by class of thing, rather than each individual photo getting its own dedicated microcategory of one. The only other thing that could conceivably be filed here is the article that the photo is being used on, but (a) categories aren't allowed to mix articles with filespace image galleries, and (b) it would still be a WP:SMALLCAT of just two entries even if we overlooked that. Bearcat (talk) 11:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. per nom. Mason (talk) 12:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Speedy delete in the spirit of WP:C2F. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:28, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• If this is just about images then they should be in a Wikipedia images category, e.g. Category:Transport images. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - as far as I'm aware, we don't generally have categories for individual ships on en.wiki; this is a Commons practice (barring the obvious exceptions of course), so I don't much see the need for this one. But I am curious as to why Bearcat thinks that articles and files aren't permitted to coexist in the same cat. WP:FILECAT states that "A category can mix articles and images, or a separate file/image category can be created." Parsecboy (talk) 15:54, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I didn't say images aren't allowed to be in categories; I said categories aren't allowed to mix articles with image galleries. That is, if it's actually important for the image to be filed in an article category — which it very rarely is, though I won't say never — then the category has to list a text link to the file rather than displaying an image gallery. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

But XfD is WP:NOTCLEANUP, so your rationale still makes no sense. Parsecboy (talk) 14:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. per nom. I made this category by mistake. Thought I was in commons at the time.-- Broichmore (talk) 08:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: snowball rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose renaming Category:Association football people by prefecture in Japan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Association football people from Japan by prefecture
• Propose renaming Category:Association footballers by county in Northern Ireland (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Association footballers from Northern Ireland by county
• Propose renaming Category:Association footballers by county in the Republic of Ireland (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Association footballers from the Republic of Ireland by county
• Propose renaming Category:Cyclists by province in Belgium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Cyclists from Belgium by province
• Propose renaming Category:Cyclists by province in the Netherlands (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Cyclists from the Netherlands by province

... Full list on the talk page.

Nominator's rationale: This was previously nominated at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 29#Category:Association football people by prefecture in Japan, and as discussed I am renominating using the alternative scheme X from Y by Z. The rationale is The splitter should be the last thing mentioned in the category name.

Pinging participants @CaribDigita, @Gidonb, @Kaffet i halsen, @Marcocapelle, @P199, @Visviva, @Sillyfolkboy, @RevelationDirect, @P Aculeius, @Paul_012, @Sahaib, @Happily888. Qwerfjkltalk 11:28, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support on the basis it would be an improvement to the status quo and is a more logical ordering of the variables. Though some might argue the national categories could be renamed "FOOian sportspeople by region" etc. Sionk (talk) 11:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support, per my comments in the previous discussion. These are container cats for Football people from Foo county, etc. Reflecting the from wording would help avoid potential confusion regarding the scope of the categories. Also avoids opening the can of worms that introducing Fooian demonyms certainly would. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support having the splitter at the end. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:29, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Fixer88 (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom Mason (talk) 14:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Substituting "from" for "in" fixes the major problem with scope, and the order seems more logical. I still see no problem with using demonyms, but that's another issue for another time, and it's not urgent. The original proposal was problematic, and this one solves those problems. P Aculeius (talk) 15:12, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom & reasonings above. Sawyer-mcdonell (talk) 02:27, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Terminal (American band) albums (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose renaming Category:Terminal (band) albums to Category:Terminal (American band) albums

Nominator's rationale: Terminal (band) redirects to Terminal (a disambiguation page). The main article for the band is Terminal (American band) (How the Lonely Keep, the only member of the category, redirects there). Jeeputer ^Talk 10:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per WP:C2D, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Rename per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 00:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: delete all of them. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British television people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British theatre people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British artists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British historians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British academics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British film people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British lawyers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British entertainers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British bankers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British businesspeople (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish British journalists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Jewish English entertainers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: A newly-created category (22 Sep 2023) that is IMHO a blatant departure from Wikipedia's best practices and guidelines, especially WP:OCEGRS. I do not see any argument, unless proven otherwise, that Judaism has any specific role in the career of these individuals within British television. In the case it has played a significant role for a select few, I believe that this can be elaborated in the article body, rather than putting together a file of all Jews that stepped in the world of British television. Relevant past CFDs I could find: British people by ethnicity and occupation, British politicians of Jewish descent, Jewish television series (the latter for the link between Judaism and television production). Note that there is no other category for "Jewish television people" in any country. Place Clichy (talk) 10:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I expanded the nomination with categories created in the same batch that have similar features, mostly all relative to media occupations. @Smasongarrison, Marcocapelle, and Sionk: you are invited to confirm your opinion. Place Clichy (talk) 21:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. Per nom and WP:OCEGRS Mason (talk) 12:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Still Support Mason (talk) 22:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. Per nom and WP:OCEGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:33, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, on the basis I don't see what marks this out as different from the other occupations in Category:British Jews by occupation. With the ongoing arguments about whether Jewish actors should play Jewish characters, for example, I would have thought there was an argument to keep the "television people" and "theatre people" categories. Sionk (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

In a way you are correct that this category shouldn't be looked at alone, despite falling into the dead-end WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. A user took the bold action to dispatch British Jews in a number of categories for occupations regardless of their relevance, and it is this dispatch that I object to, as summarized in Wikipedia's editing guideline WP:EGRS/I. Place Clichy (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Support, considering I was making an argument for a "Jewish British actors" category, but the categories being nominated in the revised nomination do not need categorising by religion. Sionk (talk) 00:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:30, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose renaming Category:Monuments men to Category:Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives personnel

Nominator's rationale: The main article appears to be at List of Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives personnel and the current category name looks odd. Possibly a speedy candidate. Brandmeister^talk 09:48, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. My guess is that this name was inspired by the movie. Mason (talk) 12:12, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 00:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per the recognizable common name. "Monuments Men" is an alternate name on the page, and things like the film, the Monuments Men Foundation for the Preservation of Art (established in 2007, seven years before the film that Mason is guessing that the common name was inspired by), and other societal touchstones (such as this well-designed Congressional Gold Medal awarded by the "Monuments Men Recognition Act of 2013" and by the 2014 Smithsonian Exhibition) for these individuals secure and include the well-known name. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. As noted by Randy Kryn, the 2014 movie title was inspired by the name via the 2006 book, not the other way around. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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The result of the discussion was: rename. There's a lot to unpack here. There is no consensus on deletion, mainly due to the fact that this is one cat in a tree. No prejudice against nominating the whole tree. There is, however, a clear consensus to rename. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 22:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:Film actresses from insular areas of the United States (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: This category is in just one category and only has one subcategory in it. I'm failing to see the point of it. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 16:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. I created another subcategory, so there are now 2 subcategories under that category. I also noticed 2 other editors added additional parent categories. Consequentially, nomination no longer has merit as its original basis no longer exists. Mercy11 (talk) 22:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
• Delete, trivial intersection. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:45, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  If the decision isn't to keep, I suggest we merge it so that we don't orphan the children categories. Mason (talk) 19:50, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  Merging isn't the solution because that would mix Puerto Rican and Virgin Islander actresses with American actresses. Mercy11 (talk) 00:08, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

  Why is it trivial? It's not explained why and it's not obvious why it would be trivial. Mercy11 (talk) 23:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  • Film actresses from Puerto Rico have nothing in common with those from the Virgin Islands, the fact that they live in US insular areas is completely unrelated to being an actress. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

    Similarly, actresses from Virginia have nothing in common with those from Illinois, the fact that they live in states of the US is completely unrelated to being an actress. Following that line of reasoning, we should then also delete Category:American actresses because actresses from Virginia (Category:Actresses from Virginia) have nothing in common with those from Illinois (Category:Actresses from Illinois). Mercy11 (talk) 01:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

    • Virginia and Illinois are in the same country, Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands are not. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:22, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

      Thank you; you just restated my point and yours above: "the fact that they live in [the] US...is completely unrelated to being an actress." Mercy11 (talk) 17:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

      • I stated that actresses from Virginia and Illinois have something in common apart from being an actress, namely they live in the same country. So it is an apples and pears comparison. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

        Likewise, actresses in Puerto Rico and the USVI do have something in common apart from being an actress, that they live in the insular areas of the same country. Mercy11 (talk) 00:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

        • So not in the same country. Hence trivial. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:13, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comments - the whole tree of Category:People of insular areas of the United States should be deleted. It's basically just grouping people from islands. Out of the whole tree, I think maybe Category:Officials of insular areas of the United States might be worth discussing. But delete the rest. - jc37 00:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  This discussion should probably not be held only for territories of the U.S. but for all other dependent territories in the world with comparable statuses, incl. People from British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies, People from Overseas France, People from the Dutch Caribbean etc. At first glance, it seems useful to have categories bridging people from these territories to their parent countries, and also presenting them in a neat separated way apart from the root of by country/by nationality categories where places that are not countries do not obviously belong. Place Clichy (talk) 06:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - Please see the existing categories. Honestly, I don't think it's a "trivial intersection". The cats have been defined various ways but they have not NOT been defined. They've been defined: “in territories of the US”, “in the US by región”, “in insular áreas of the US”, “from insular áreas of the US”, “XYZ in the United states by insular área”... I think "...in Insular areas of the United States" is a good way to define these. These cats are not a problem, nor are they a trivial intersection.
• Category:Buildings_and_structures_in_insular_areas_of_the_United_States
• Category:People_by_insular_area_of_the_United_States_by_religion
• Category:Crime_in_insular_areas_of_the_United_States
• Category:Mass media by insular area of the United States The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, and as I noted above, they should all be deleted. grouping together various Territories of the United States just because they are on islands (insular) is just overcategorisation. The only ones even close to being defining, "might" be the government officials ones, and crime, due to a tenuous association with Office of Insular Affairs. But even those are weak, at best. This tree just seems rather badly constructed. Most of these would be better named and situated in Category:Territories of the United States and Category:Associated states of the United States. - jc37 19:48, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  There are other countries besides the US with unincorporated territories. The term Insular Areas is specific to the US and thus the more appropriate term to use. Mercy11 (talk) 21:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  I wouldn't consider it overcategorization at all. If we categorize American people by occupation and states of the Union because states are incorporated territories, seems only logical to categorize them also by occupation and insular areas because insular areas are not incorporated territories. As an example, if we group people by occupation on a national jurisdiction basis (e.g., Category:American educators, Category:American criminals, Category:American physicians, Category:American religious leaders, etc.), as well as on one subnational jurisdiction basis, like states (e.g., Category:American educators by state, Category:American criminals by state, Category:American physicians by state, Category:Religious leaders by state in the United States, etc.), then it’s only natural to group them on other subnational jurisdiction basis as well, such as Insular Areas because Insular Areas aren’t states. That is, Category:Educators from insular areas of the United States, Category:Criminals from insular areas of the United States, Category:Physicians by insular area of the United States, Category:Religious leaders of insular areas of the United States, etc.). Mercy11 (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  So past discussions have determined that what country an actor/actress is from may be WP:DEFINING. And even what state or territory, such as Category:Puerto Rican film actresses. But the fact that a territory or country happens to be on an island is not WP:DEFINING for that actor/actress.

  And this isn't only limited to intersections of occupation by geographic feature. (Which is what "insular" is.) Take a look at WP:OCEGRS, and you'll see it's also intersections of occupations with ethnicity, religion, etc.

  So yes, it's overcategorisation.

  As I mentioned, the intersection between the occupation and other criteria needs to be WP:DEFINING. Which is why, I suggested above that officials and crime could be defining, possibly. Though that's even weak. Again, trying to intersect occupation by geographic feature is a tough sell. It would be better to re-categorise these appropriately under Category:Territories of the United States and Category:Associated states of the United States. And incidentally, from what I can tell, many of them are not currently in those trees... - jc37 00:56, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

  But the Category:Territories of the United States and Category:Associated states of the United States are subcategories of Insular Areas and therefore should fall under Category:Insular areas of the United States, according to this ref:^[1] The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 21:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

  According to this definition by the US Dept of Interior, the Insular Areas is the top category with Territories and Associated States and everything else under it. An Insular Area of the United States is "A jurisdiction that is neither a part of one of the several States nor a Federal district. This is the current generic term to refer to any commonwealth, freely associated state, possession or territory or Territory and from July 18, 1947, until October 1, 1994, the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands. Unmodified, it may refer not only to a jurisdiction which is under United States sovereignty but also to one which is not, i.e., a freely associated state or, 1947-94, the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands or one of the districts of the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands." The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 21:12, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

  The issue is not with the insular areas. The issue is the intersection of the topics. Just because Puerto Rico happens to also be an insular area, does not mean that everything that happens in Puerto Rico, nor all the people in Puerto Rico who reside in Puerto Rico, should be categorized also under insular area. You have yet to show how being from an insular area is WP:DEFINING for any of these actresses. - jc37 08:52, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

  The insular area categories are (and should only be) container categories. Nobody would imply that e.g. an actress who resides in Puerto Rico should be categorized also under insular area as you put it, no more than an article in Category:American film actresses should be categorized also in parents Category:American actresses by medium and Category:Film actresses by nationality. Place Clichy (talk) 09:19, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

  But @Jc37:, this is not categorizing based on what you say when you say "But the fact that a territory or country happens to be on an island is not WP:DEFINING for that actor/actress."

  Please see the source "Definitions of Insular Area Political Organizations" where the definition provided by the US Dept of Interior doesn't say that Insular Area Political Organization means "island". The document defining Insular Areas is WP:DEFINING and what it defines are areas of the US that are not states and not Washington DC. The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 13:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

  To you both - the nominated category is Category:Film actresses from insular areas of the United States. So the question is whether it is WP:DEFINING to intersect the topic of "insular area", with the occupation "actress". The answer to that is "no". And so far, no one on this discussion has provided any verifiable reliable sources, showing otherwise. - jc37 23:59, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

  (answered after relisting) WP:DEFINING applies to a category's actual content, not the content of the content. In this case, the content of Category:Film actresses from insular areas of the United States is Category:Puerto Rican film actresses, not the individual actresses. Puerto Rico has a defining link with the notion of insular area of the United States. Do you need a RS for that? The other terms in the category's name don't change, as these are both DIFFUSEd categories (of Category:Film actresses). Place Clichy (talk) 10:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Keep, or even better rename to Category:Film actresses by insular area of the United States, per parent Category:People by occupation and insular area of the United States. The purpose of such categories is to be a container serving as a bridge between American fooers and categories for the individual territories, and incidentally to have them neatly sorted out from the root of the country/nationality categories as it should be for dependent territories. Place Clichy (talk) 06:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Rename. I too agree to a rename to Category:Film actresses by insular area of the United States, per parent Category:People by occupation and insular area of the United States. This would make the most sense name for the category considering all the points discussed so far. Mercy11 (talk) 01:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge/rename as nominated. (Note: a few categories were nominated to be merged into a redlink; I have treated those as a move request.) (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Immigrants to the Kingdom of England to Category:Immigrants to England

Nominator's rationale: overlapping cat Mason (talk) 04:09, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose, this will only work if the subcategories are nominated in conjunction. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:48, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'd be open to that, but if I'm being honest, I'm starting to get burnt out by all the trivial categories that JPL has made. Would you be willing to help me tag them all? Mason (talk) 16:56, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Swedish immigrants to the Kingdom of England to Category:Swedish emigrants to England
• Propose merging Category:Spanish emigrants to the Kingdom of England to Category:Spanish emigrants to England
• Propose merging Category:Italian emigrants to the Kingdom of England to Category:Italian emigrants to England
• Propose merging Category:French emigrants to the Kingdom of England to Category:French emigrants to England
• Propose merging Category:Emigrants from the Grand Duchy of Tuscany to the Kingdom of England to Category:Emigrants from the Grand Duchy of Tuscany to England
• Propose merging Category:Dutch emigrants to the Kingdom of England to Category:Dutch emigrants to England

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:34, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge all per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:39, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 19:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose splitting Category:Clergy from the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria to Category:Clergy from the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria and Category:Clergy in the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria

Nominator's rationale: This category follows the nationality naming convention, but belongs to the country category. Mason (talk) 20:49, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose; I don't think we need a separate category for clergy people from certain administrative unit. Marcelus (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, splitting between country and nationality is not helpful due to the large overlap. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:17, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  Would you be ok with renaming/reparenting it to make that a tad clearer. Like Clergy of... Mason (talk) 22:46, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:33, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 19:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Emigrants from the Old Swiss Confederacy to Category:Swiss emigrants

Nominator's rationale: overlapping category where the regime isn't defining Mason (talk) 03:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle, but the article should be moved to Category:Swiss emigrants to France. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge, with the useful distinction given by Marcocapelle. Typical example where a regime change does little difference to the topic of the category. Place Clichy (talk) 11:02, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 19:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Emigrants from the Kingdom of Great Britain to Category:British emigrants

• Propose merging Category:Kingdom of Great Britain emigrants to the United States to Category:British emigrants to the United States

Nominator's rationale: overlapping category, where the political distinction isn't helpful/defining Mason (talk) 02:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:28, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. The distinction is not useful. Place Clichy (talk) 10:47, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom --Lenticel ^(talk) 00:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 19:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose deleting Category:Wikipedians interested in law and morality (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Overly narrow scope, no article on law and morality. All users are either already in the parent or long-gone so there is no need for a merge. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:33, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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The result of the discussion was: merge both as proposed. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Propose merging Category:Amputees from the Russian Empire to Category:Russian amputees
• Propose merging Category:Deaf people from the Russian Empire to Category:Russian deaf people

Nominator's rationale: small, overlapping categories. Disability doesn't need to intersect with political regime (russian empire versus russia) Mason (talk) 00:12, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:41, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.