Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 248

Summary of dispute by Skitash

This topic has already been addressed several times in Talk:Algeria. Although the CIA World Factbook states that 99% of the population is "Arab-Amazigh", this is problematic because it creates confusion due to the lack of sources explaining what an "Arab-Amazigh" or "Arab-Berber" precisely means, and the few sources that use this term only mention it in passing. It also remains unclear whether this 99% figure combines Arab and Berber populations or represents people of mixed Arab and Berber origins. The Arab-Berber article was eventually redirected for exactly this reason. This is why the decision was made to use more specific divisions of ethnic identity, supported by multiple sources in Algeria#Demographics. The CIA source also notes that "only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population", meaning that the remainder of "Arab-Berbers" would identify as Arab, and this perfectly aligns with other reliable sources.^[1][2] I have attempted to resolve the issue by adding a footnote to the infobox outlining the different ethnic percentage ranges according to various sources. Hopefully, this resolves the issue. Skitash (talk) 13:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Algeria discussion

Zeroth statement by moderator (Algeria)

After looking into this issue, I am willing to act as the moderator in this dispute.

I would like to ask the participants to please read Wikipedia:DRN Rule D and indicate that you will comply with it. Please note that discussions related to infoboxes are designated as a contentious topic. By agreeing to the rules, you state that you are aware of this. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Comment on content, not contributor.

So it appears to me that Skitash would like the status quo to remain, and Potymkin would like changes to the infobox. I have two questions for Potymkin: 1. Are you fine with the current state of Algeria#Ethnic_groups or would you also like changes to that? If yes, please state those. 2. The CIA Factbook states that although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population and Study.com states that In fact, roughly 85% of the nation identifies much more strongly with their Arab heritage than their Berber heritage. Considering this, could you elaborate on what changes you want to the infobox and why? Thank you. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 14:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by editors (Algeria)

@Potymkin: I asked you to indicate your acceptance of DRN Rule D. This was not stated. I also asked (and it's also in DRN Rule D) to comment on content, not contributor. At DRN, we deal with content issues, not conduct issues. Please rewrite your statement below keeping these in mind. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for elaborating, I state that I accept DRN Rule D.

Answering questions :

1. Are you fine with the current state of Algeria#Ethnic_groups or would you also like changes to that?

I am not fine with the current state of it, I propose either we insert :

- Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%)

- Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which 15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%)

2.Considering this, could you elaborate on what changes you want to the infobox and why?

- Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%)

- Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which 15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%)

Why ? It is whats mentioned in the CIA factbook about algeria "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population", most algerians are ethnically berber from the sources provided ,identifying with arab is a cultural phenomena not an ethnic phenomena, and therefore it should not be in the ethnicity tab of algeria.

I hope this clears up the matter, let me know if you have any further questions. Potymkin (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kovcszaln6 I am willing to accept DRN Rule D. Unfortunately, it appears that the root of this edit conflict stems from a misunderstanding. Ethnicity is based on self-identification, language, culture, history, etc. Potymkin appears to equate ethnicity with genetics, which is completely unrelated and not determining of ethnicity. According to the lead in ethnicity, "Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with some groups having mixed genetic ancestry". Although CIA World Factbook may correctly note that most Algerians had Berber ancestors, most Algerians today identify as Arab, speak Arabic, and practice Arab culture, therefore making them ethnically Arab. Britannica supports this by stating "More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab". Additionally, the CIA World Factbook source states that only 15% of the population identifies as Berber, meaning that the remaining 85% identify as non-Berbers (i.e., Arab). Skitash (talk) 16:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Algeria)

Thank you for the responses. Skitash pointed out that ethnicity is based on self-identification, not genetics. Potymkin, considering this, do you still want changes in the article (the same or different)? If you do, please also consider the other sources. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 17:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

First statement by editors (Algeria)

Ethnicity is fundamentally rooted in genetics rather than self-identification, as it is defined by inherited biological traits that are passed down through generations. this shows clearly on a scholarly concensus that although the Romans for instance identified as being desendant of the Trojan race and argued for such in their history and mythology, no historian ever considers Romans as Trojans, the same is applied to Algeria with researchers and scholars who identify algerians as Amazighs or Berbers or Arabized Berbers or Arabized Amazighs but never consider Algerians ethnically arab as does CIA factbook and Study.com sources.

Scholars argue that genetic markers provide clear evidence of distinct ethnic groups, which are identified based on shared ancestry and genetic lineage. For instance, genetic studies have revealed significant differences in DNA sequences among various ethnic populations, supporting the idea that ethnicity is biologically determined rather than merely a social construct. While self-identification plays a role in how individuals perceive and express their ethnic identity, it cannot alter the underlying genetic reality that distinguishes one ethnic group from another. As noted by Cavalli-Sforza et al., "genetic evidence provides the most objective means to determine ethnicity" (Cavalli-Sforza, Luca (1994). The History and Geography of Human Genes. Princeton University Press. pp. 19–22. ISBN 9780691087504.). Furthermore, research by Rosenberg et al. highlights how genetic clustering aligns closely with traditional ethnic and geographical boundaries (Rosenberg, Noah A. (2002). "Genetic Structure of Human Populations". Science. 298 (5602): 2381–2385. doi:10.1126/science.1078311.). Therefore, while self-identification is an important aspect of personal and cultural identity, it does not override the genetic basis that defines ethnicity.

considering the academic concensus on the matter, one can hardly find in the page about the holy roman empire that it is composed of ethnic romans even if they identified as such, the population of the HRE for example is made up of Germans and scholars have solid concensus over such as they do with algeria from where you can see in the CIA factbook quote "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab", the CIA fact book does not consider Algeria as made out of ethnic arabs and puts in the stats:

Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%

I would still like changes to the page on Ethnicity in Algeria to meet such scholarly requirements Potymkin (talk) 19:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

"Ethnicity is fundamentally rooted in genetics rather than self-identification" Ethnicity says otherwise. I'm not quite sure why this conversation is shifting into a scientific debate but it is a known fact that ethnic groups, like race, are social constructs based on self-identification. Ethnicities emerge through a process called ethnogenesis, where groups of people begin to identify with one another. According to BioMed Central, "Indeed, the terms race and ethnicity exist purely as social constructs and must not be used interchangeably with genetic ancestry. There is no scientific evidence that the groups we traditionally call “races/ethnicities” have distinct, unifying biological or genetic basis". For instance, an Algerian that only speaks Arabic and practices Arab culture has no reason to identify as a Berber based solely on genetics. Unlike genetics, ethnic identity is fluid, with individuals or groups sometimes changing or adapting their ethnic identity due to historical factors. Today, Algeria is predominantly Arab due to Arabization throughout history, "a process of cultural change in which a non-Arab society becomes Arab". Likewise, the vast majority of modern Syrians identify as Arabs and are regarded as such, despite being mostly descended from ancient Arameans. Skitash (talk) 19:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

In the previous version Skitach claimed that the sources were in the demographics section. One of these sources was genetic. Now that genetic sources give something else, he says that genetics is no longer suitable...

• the mentions which affirm that the Arabs are descendants of Arabized Amazigh are systematically removed by Skitach: exemple Britanica: More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab, though most Algerians are descendants of ancient Amazigh groups who mixed with various invading peoples from the Arab Middle East, southern Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa. Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population
• when you read the article Arab migrations to the Maghreb, everything has been done to make people believe in a replacement of the Amazigh natives by a population originating from the Arab peninsula, by a diversion of sources. Here we are in continuity with this POV, why not mention the genetic elements in the body of the text (excluding infobox) first? I have the impression of having a contradictor closed to any other option than the one he defends in disregard of the diversity of sources and WP:NPOV.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Algeria)

Thank you. There appears to be discussion happening at Talk:Algeria#Ethnic_groups_Algeria involving more editors, and this mediation doesn't seem like it's going anywhere. So I would suggest that you could continue the discussion on the talk page involving the other editors, and if that fails maybe consider an WP:RfC. Are you guys fine with that? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 10:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by editors (Algeria)

@Kovcszaln6: It actually seems this one-on-one discussion is progressing much more smoothly compared to the other, if we set aside the baseless comments made here by the other editor who only jumped in to violate DRN Rule D. So, I would greatly appreciate it if we could continue our discussion here. I'm open to reaching a common ground to resolve this dispute by proposing a percentage range in the infobox: 75–85% Arab, 15–25% Berber, based on the following sources:

• Reference World Atlas: Everything You Need to Know About Our Planet Today: "Ethnic groups: Arab 75%, Berber 24%, European and Jewish 1%"
• Britannica: Algeria: "More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab".
• Algeria: History & Background: "The combined Arab-Berber people comprise more than 99 percent of the population (Arabs approximately 80 percent; Berbers 20 percent), with Europeans less than one percent".
• Changing Female Literacy Practices in Algeria "Ethnically the population is made up of about 80% Arabic and 20% Berber".
• Historical Dictionary of Algeria "Most Algerians, approximately 85 percent of the population, today claim an Arab background".
• Algeria Ethnic Groups "Partly due to the strong association between Islam and Arab identity, there is a fair amount of social pressure in Algeria to identify with Arab ancestry. In fact, roughly 85% of the nation identifies much more strongly with their Arab heritage than their Berber heritage."

Please tell me what you think. Skitash (talk) 01:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Once again you select the information from the articles that suit you without explaining the concepts which is a misappropriation of sources.

• For example, as hidden in Britanica “Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population.”
• education.stateuniversity.com is this a serious source? following an official or academic publication?
• Is « Changing Female Literacy Practices » in Algeria a source focused enough on the subject?
• Why not retain other information in Algeria Ethnic Groups : « Officially 99% of Algerian identify as ethnically Arab-Berber" [...] So, if most Algerians are genetically Berber, what does this mean? Berbers are an ethnic group ancestrally indigenous to North Africa, also called the Amazigh. Historically, there was little to no semblance of Berber identity, with Berber groups identifying with tribes or clans rather than nationality or ethnicity. This is another reason that Arab identity became so strong; Berber identity was too varied to form the basis of a national identity. ».

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Algeria)

Thank you, we can continue this dispute here then. Potymkin are you fine with the above suggestion? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 07:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by editors (Algeria)

A fundamental aspect of the sources is systematically eliminated: the Arabized Berber character of the Arabs. This is why the CIA Factbook speaks of « Arab-Amazigh ». This Amazigh origin of the « Arabs » is obscured on article.

• Britanica : « Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population. »
• CIA Factbook : «  although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab »

There are other sources such as Dmoh Bacha which, based on Bekada's study of the Algerian population, gives different figures: « — 65% d’ascendance ethnique berbère — 15% d’ascendance ethnique arabe du côté paternel — 20% d’ascendance diverses, Afrique sub-saharienne, Europe, Asie centrale. (Bekada, 2013) »

Unfortunately all the elements which do not point to the origin of the Algerian population from the Arabian Peninsula are eliminated and we keep sources and notions which make us believe the opposite. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Please stop trying to change the definition of ethnicity. The infobox literally links to ethnic group, which, as the lead explains, is based on self-identity, language, and culture—not genetics. The multiple sources I provided clearly make use of the words "ethnically" and "ethnic groups". "Arabized Berbers" are ethnically Arab by virtue of their identity, language, and culture. As for your source, it is 1) about genetics rather than ethnic groups, 2) WP:UNDUE, and 3) pertains to the entire Maghreb rather than specifically to Algeria, as it clearly states "Les tests ADN donnent un rapport génétique Arabe/Berbère au Maghreb". Being "Arab" does not imply originating from the Arabian Peninsula (not sure where you got that idea). This is the same reason the infobox in Syria doesn't say "74–75% Arabized Arameans" but rather "74–75% Arabs".

@Kovcszaln6 Could you please ensure that this editor who just joined the conversation abides by DRN Rule D? Skitash (talk) 12:52, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (Algeria)

@Monsieur Patillo: If you would like to participate in this discussion please read and indicate your acceptance of Wikipedia:DRN Rule D (more details here). Considering that ethnicity is based on self-identification and not genetics, are you fine with Skitash's recommendation? If not, please elaborate. This question towards Potymkin is still pending. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 13:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statement by editors (Algeria)

Kovcszaln6 Excuse me, this is the first time I have participated in this mediation format. I of course accept the rules. I disagree with Skitach's assertion. I'm answering for the genetics/ethnicity aspect (I hope this is the right place).

• The concept of ethnicity includes an aspect of origins or biology (which is only one criterion among others unlike the old concept of race). The study of human migrations using DNA should therefore not be ruled out. As a source I will cite the article Identités biologiques, identités sociales et conflits ethniques en Afrique subsaharienne, section « L’ethnie entre biologie et culture : la notion d’origine »(Ethnicity between biology and culture: the notion of origin): «The notion of “common origin”, in this definition, appears to constitute the link between biology and culture.»
• If the question of ethnology is "what is the population of Algeria", genetic or biological data cannot be excluded.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:39, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, your response suggests confirmation bias and cherry picking sources. Kindly take a look at the ethnicity Wikipedia article and its sources. Thank you. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 14:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• if the source explains that there are Arabized Berbers and that the CIA factbook defines: "Arab-Amazigh" as 99% of the ethnic group, it is not up to Skitach to deny the existence of this notion. The comparison argument look likz a WP:NOR argument, because the Berber or Arameans groups have their specificity. The Berbers and their language are a very vibrant cultural group, and aspects of North African culture are not limited to the language spoken (North African cuisine, clothing, such as couscous or burnous, are markers of Berber culture...)
• The notion of having a large majority of Amazigh is not only found in genetic studies or sources on genetics. Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, «More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya.».

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's stop trying to redefine ethnicity, or we'll be stuck here forever. Ethnicity is there for you to read if you want, and I am not willing to debate this further. Government censuses typically allow individuals to self-identify their ethnic affiliation, which forms the basis for determining a country's ethnic percentages. There's no practical way to determine genetic groups or ancestral backgrounds, especially given centuries of mixing and migrations in Algeria. No one is purely one thing, and identifying everyone's ancestry is impossible. Therefore, we must rely on how individuals self-identify based on language and culture. Let's focus on the fact that the vast majority of sources divide Algeria's population into 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber. Let's move on from the genetics debate.

Like I said before, there is no such thing as "Arab-Amazigh", and that article was redirected because that term is WP:UNDUE and lacks a definition. The CIA source is only there to confirm that only 15% of the population identifies as Berber. Skitash (talk) 14:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Algeria)

Debating the definition of "ethnicity" is outside of the scope of this dispute. So the question still is (to both Potymkin and Monsieur Patillo): are you fine with Skitash's suggestion? Please also take into consideration the sources that were cited. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 15:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statement by editors (Algeria)

Although Skitash offers concessions concerning the percentages of the ethnicities the sources are solid that almost the entire population is Ethnically north african berber as @Monsieur Patillo suggests, both sides have made their points. a discussion in the Talk page has made several moderators step in and make a final edit to the Algeria article. I suggest we wrap up this dispute @Kovcszaln6, the admins have made final suggestions to end all ethnicity talk in the Algeria page once and for all. thank you very much for your mediation, it is greatly appreciated. It wouldn't be your problem from now on since the admins have taken over, I greatly suggest closing this talk page.--Potymkin (talk) 22:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• The Wikipedia article on ethnicity does not itself exclude certain biological traits ( «Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with some groups having mixed genetic ancestry»). So why want to exclude them at all costs? The notion of African-American cited in the text is based solely on culture? or a supposed common origin? In your opinion, there is nothing to say and nothing to learn from the multiple studies on the Algerian population in the Article dedicated to Algeria?
• It is then asserted by skitach: "There's no practical way to determine genetic groups or ancestral backgrounds, especially given centuries of mixing and migrations in Algeria. No one is purely one thing, and identifying everyone's ancestry is impossible." Please avoid these kinds of personal digressions. Nobody says that there is genetic purity. Only there are genetic studies to trace the origin of human migrations. Studies particularly on haplogroups. They reveal that the Algerian and North African population is (for the most part) not linked to migrations from the Arab peninsula. It is an intangible population data. I remind you that in the initial version of the Algeria article, there was reference (source) on genetics which did not bother anyone as long as it was supposed to prove that there were 85% « Arabs »...
• The notion of Arab-Amazigh is quite simply that of Arab-Berber, it is extremely common, especially in French, to describe the ethnology or sociology of the Maghreb. There is no shortage of exemples : Google Books, or other or more specifically to Algeria.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Like @Kovcszaln6 said, debating the definition of ethnicity is outside of the scope of this dispute. So, let's put an end to this genetic debate. Ethnic groups are social constructs based on self-identity. Full stop. There is no debate surrounding this. Again, are you fine with this suggestion? Skitash (talk) 15:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• Conception of separating the biological from the cultural (all the articles you cite are in this ideological school and centered on the USA) comes from a late school of sociology (notably A. Wimmer) which itself responds to the old conception in force in the United States. After in the United States and in Western countries a constructivist definition is in vogue but it is itself subject to criticism and above all it does not have a monopoly on the definition of ethnicity .

BRUN Solène, COSQUER Claire, « 5. Race et ethnicité, des concepts complémentaires ou concurrents ? », dans : , Sociologie de la race. sous la direction de BRUN Solène, COSQUER Claire. Paris, Armand Colin, « 128 », 2022, p. 61-72.

«  Alors que la race supposerait ce substrat biologique, voire génétique, l’ethnicité renverrait à des marqueurs entièrement culturels, c’est-à-dire à une origine définie par la communauté culturelle, l’identification à une patrie ou à des traditions communes. [...] la distinction entre la race comprise comme « fixe, imposée et excluante » et l’ethnicité décrite comme « fluide, auto-attribuée et volontaire » ne rend pas justice aux situations dans lesquelles des groupes désignés comme « ethniques » sont soumis à une ségrégation forcée, à l’exclusion ou à une domination « d’habitude associée à la race » comme c’est le cas par exemple pour les Serbes au Kosovo ou les Albanien·ne·s en Serbie [...] Face aux difficultés posées par cette division stricte entre race et ethnicité, de nombreux·ses auteur·e·s n’opèrent pas de distinction essentielle entre les termes et les utilisent de façon relativement indifférenciée. D’autres considèrent la distinction superflue et insistent alors sur la fluidité conceptuelle entre des termes qui doivent l’un et l’autre être compris comme des constructions sociales, plaidant ainsi pour un dépassement d’une opposition comprise comme trop réductrice [...] Pour A. Wimmer, la race est une forme d’ethnicité où les traits phénotypiques opèrent comme les marqueurs déterminants de l’appartenance, déterminant ainsi des « groupes ethnosomatiques ». Cette conception va toutefois, de l’avis même de A. Wimmer, à l’encontre des définitions communément admises aux États-Unis de la race et de l’ethnicité, pour lesquelles l’ethnicité serait bien plus une sous-division de la race que le contraire . Selon l’auteur, ce découpage a l’avantage de permettre une meilleure comparabilité internationale des travaux s’inscrivant dans le champ des études sur la race et l’ethnicité, en déconstruisant son indexation sur le sens commun états-unien. Si la proposition formalisée par A. Wimmer est à plusieurs égards séduisante, elle ne répond qu’en partie au double problème identifié plus haut. En effet, elle maintient une définition de l’ethnicité centrée sur l’auto-identification, sous laquelle sa propre définition de la race comme « ethnosomatique » peine à être subsumée. Surtout, elle reconduit la ligne de partage entre biologique et culturel, transformant simplement cette division en subdivision.  »

• If you want to play personal beliefs you can even trip yourself up. Because nowadays people who use these genetic tests as a subjective relationship to their ethnicity are an object of social study.
• The only element reported by the ethnicity article is that ethnicity is not based primarily on biology (real or supposed) but primarily on social criteria. I repeat that when the genetics articles were supposed to prove that there were 85% Arabs, they did not pose a problem.
• I therefore think that the question is poorly posed, rather than knowing if we necessarily fall into the field of ethnology, we should define in which field/section the genetic data have their place ? In other words, if you separate them from the study of the population and ethnic groups in Algeria, where will you put them?

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

This is getting tedious. This wall of text only repeats the same points you made before, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of sources agree that ethnicity is a social construct. @Kovcszaln6 has already pointed out that the definition of ethnicity is outside the scope of this dispute. I think it’s about time we move on from this. Skitash (talk) 21:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

In this case let's move forward and answer my last point. What to do with these sources on genetics? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Monsieur Patillo You could include them under a new genetics subheading underneath Algeria#Demographics, ensuring that all significant viewpoints regarding Algeria’s genetic makeup are given appropriate weight. However, they certainly do not belong in Algeria#Ethnic groups or the ethnic groups parameter in the infobox. I hope this is a common ground we can agree on.

@Potymkin No administrators have intervened and no final decision was made; that was just another editor suggesting that we revise the lead (and not delete anything), and they seem to be unaware that there is a WP:DRN discussion regarding this. The infobox should stay as it is until we conclude the discussion here per WP:STATUSQUO. As for your claim that "the entire population is Ethnically north african berber", that is factually incorrect. How many times must we reiterate the fact that ethnicity is a social construct based on identity? All the sources provided here correctly make use of the words "ethnically" and "ethnic groups" and agree on an overall ethnic range of 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber. The sources definitely don't say what you claimed they say. Skitash (talk) 23:32, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator (Algeria)

Thank you for the responses. I'm not entirely sure what Potymkin meant here; if you no longer want to participate in this discussion that's fine.

Skitash has suggested that both kinds of sources could be used as long as they are cleary presented and separated, and other rules are followed. Are you guys fine with that? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 08:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Sixth statement by editors (Algeria)

• How many times must we reiterate the fact that ethnicity is a social construct based on identity?  : As long as these kinds of unfounded assertions are brandished as law. “Our ancestors the Gauls” is a social construction and a widely shared discourse, particularly at certain times, that makes it no ethnic reality in France, or in its colonies.
• As the source Dmoh Bacha says that it is a look and an "ethnic ancestry" I do not think that the genetic data can be purely and simply removed from the ethnic section. This would mean that you with your definition "correct" the sources. This is not the role of a Wikipedian. In the infobox, what information to put etc... that's another problem, actually.
• what to do with the ubiquitous mention that Arabs are Arabized Amazigh and not nationals of the Arabian Peninsula. This major fact is passed over in silence in all your writings.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC) What bothers me is wanting to “shut up shop” on ethnology studies by saying that this or that discipline has nothing to do with it. I think we are overstepping our role in such assertions. Especially since social constructivism is a theory that is not shared by all specialists. In reality the constructivism that they want us to endorse is the political discourse of Napoleon III, and Ben Bella, of an entirely Arab Algeria without any form of objectivity (cultural: culinary dishes, clothing, etc.), historical (large arabisation of amazigh people) or biological ( study by objective data of the population...). We are not moving towards a neutral compilation of sources on Algeria, its people, its ethnic groups but towards the sacralization of the old state lie, which is thus engraved in stone because it is an internal « feeling » by some of those administered. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:17, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

"As long as these kinds of unfounded assertions are brandished as law." This is a solid fact. Even Kovcszaln6 has said that ethnicity is based on self-identification, not genetics, and that this is beyond the scope of this dispute. I'm astonished that you're not familiar with the concept of ethnicity, and at this point, you're just WP:BLUDGEONING the discussion. "Our ancestors the Gauls" We're discussing ethnicity, not ancestry. I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.

"I do not think that the genetic data can be purely and simply removed from the ethnic section." Yes it can, and it's supposed to be. Take a look at other Wikipedia articles on countries. None of them intertwine ethnicity and genetics. They either separate them into different sections or omit genetics entirely (because of how unimportant it is nowadays).

"what to do with the ubiquitous mention that Arabs are Arabized Amazigh and not nationals of the Arabian Peninsula." Arabs are Arabs by virtue of identity, language, and culture. They identify as Arabs. Why insist on labeling them as "Arabized Berbers" when many could be of different origins? Berbers aren't the only people that exist in Algeria. Skitash (talk) 10:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Why insist on calling them “Arabized Berbers” when many could be of different origins?

Because the sources tell us that they are of Arabized Berber origin... quite simply. Hiding it is pov-pushing. Typical phrases like “an Arab is an Arab” are misleading. An « Arab » does not have the same reality in Arabia, Syria or the Maghreb, especially after the connotation of political pan-Arabism. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Whatever you're saying makes no sense because the vast majority of sources say the following:

• A Political and Economic Dictionary of the Middle East "The population was estimated at 32,277,942 in July 2002, of which 75% were Arabs, 24% Berbers, and 1% others (mostly Europeans)."
• FT World Desk Reference 2005 "Arab 75%, Berber 24%, European and Jewish 1%. The population is predominantly Arab, under 30 years of age and urban; some 24% are Berber. More than 85% speak Arabic and 99% are Sunni Muslim"
• Algerian Languages in Education: Conflicts and Reconciliation "In Algeria, on the other hand, Berberists supported by France ask to expand the use of Tamazight even on Arabs who represent 80% of Algerian population."
• Reference World Atlas: Everything You Need to Know About Our Planet Today: "Ethnic groups: Arab 75%, Berber 24%, European and Jewish 1%"
• Guide to African Political and Economic Development "Algeria. Leading ethnic group: Arab 80%. Other groups: Berber 20%."
• Britannica: Algeria: "More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab".
• Algeria: History & Background: "The combined Arab-Berber people comprise more than 99 percent of the population (Arabs approximately 80 percent; Berbers 20 percent), with Europeans less than one percent".
• Changing Female Literacy Practices in Algeria "Ethnically the population is made up of about 80% Arabic and 20% Berber".
• Historical Dictionary of Algeria "Most Algerians, approximately 85 percent of the population, today claim an Arab background".
• Algeria Ethnic Groups "Partly due to the strong association between Islam and Arab identity, there is a fair amount of social pressure in Algeria to identify with Arab ancestry. In fact, roughly 85% of the nation identifies much more strongly with their Arab heritage than their Berber heritage."
• CIA World Factbook "only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population."
• Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East "Algerian Arabs constitute 80 percent of the population, the remaining group being mainly BERBER (primarily the Kabyles living in Kabylie and the Chaouias of the Awras mountains)."
• Extremisms in Africa Volume 2 "The majority of Algerians are Arab, but around 20% are Berbers.
• Routledge Handbook of Minorities in the Middle East "Berbers constitute roughly 20% of Algeria's population of 39 million. Two-thirds of them (more than 5 million) are Kabyles, originating in the mountainous Kabylie region between Algiers and Constantine, whose dialect is Taqbaylit."

It's evident that most sources unanimously and correctly use the term ethnically to describe Algeria as being composed of 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber. Skitash (talk) 11:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

As long as you cherry-pick and divert sources, you won't find solutions. I have already corrected several diversion of sources above (ex: Britanica, CIA Factbook [for which you persist in ignoring the central information of 99% Arab-Amazigh]), I am not going to do it again every day.

We can also add even more sources in the sense of sources which give 99% Arab-Amazigh (ex : Oxford Business Group, The Repport, p.10, ''Arround 99% of population is Arab-Berber ethnicity,''' which means''' that nearly all of the citizenry is descended from Berber or Amazigh populations – the indigenous pre-Islamic peoples of North Africa.''. This information which is in several sources you refuse it for ideological reasons.

In addition, it will be necessary to identify quality and reliable sources (WP:RELIABLE / WP:CS). I think it will be the role of moderation to define the scope and quality of the sources to be used to avoid the phenomenon of infinite cherry-picking. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 13:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

1. There is no cherrypicking here; this is just what the vast majority of sources state. Ethnically, Algeria is 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber, and that's a fact. I couldn't possibly find any sources implying that more than 25% of the population identifies as ethnically Berber or less than 75% identify as ethnically Arab.

2. I've already explained why "Arab-Berber" is not used, and I won't repeat myself. Feel free to check Talk:Arab-Berber or the article's revision history. Your source says it refers to descendants of Berbers, others define it as people of mixed Arab and Berber descent, while other sources just use the term to group Arabs and Berbers together. Either way, the term is WP:UNDUE, only used in passing, and has no real ethnological value. Skitash (talk) 13:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

1) This is false because you maintain the confusion between minority groups and ethnic appreciation. When the latter is not formulated your source cannot be retained, much less to deduce that the rest is necessarily composed of Arabs.

For example: Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities, 2013 explains: Minority Population: Berbers 7 million, Sahrawi 120,000 Ethnic groups: Arab-Berber (99%) Europeans (less than 1%).

So in the following sources you extrapolate ethnic configurations from minority or linguistic groups : 1) Routledge Handbook of Minorities in the Middle East 2)Extremisms in Africa Volume 2 - Google Livres 3)Algerian Languages in Education: Conflicts and Reconciliation

The Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East source cannot be consulted for detailed notes and as you do not have to reliably reproduce the nuances in several sources, a simple truncated quotation cannot be taken into account.

We also have many sources which are quite poor in value: 1 )Reference World Atlas: Everything You Need to Know About Our Planet Today, 2)Changing Female Literacy Practices in Algeria 3)FT World Desk Reference 2005 .

These are general works that are neither focused on the subject nor provide an academic point of view.

2) Please do not use Wikipedia as a source for Wikipedia: [WP:OTHERCONTENT], but base your analyzes on sources.

• Oxford Business Group, The Repport, p.10, Arround 99% of population is Arab-Berber ethnicity, which means that nearly all of the citizenry is descended from Berber or Amazigh populations – the indigenous pre-Islamic peoples of North Africa.
• Arab-Amazigh 99%, European less than 1% note: although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population
• From the independence manifestos this notion of Arab-Berber exists as we can see in this source : René Gallissot, 1986, Maghreb-Algérie, classes et nation : Libération nationale et Guerre d'Algérie, « Les Arabo-berbères forment le peuple Algérien [...] »
• Pierre Caravano, Algérie, Le grand malentendu : «Les Omeyyades ne se contentent pas de dominer les autochtones, ils viennent pour répendre la parole du prophète Mahomet. Ils vont se mêler à la population et creer en quelques dizaines d'années une nouvelle ethnie arabo-berbère. »
• Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, «More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya.».
• We note that in academic sources the Arab-Berber concept and ethnicity is widely present. This is something other than Atlases for adolescents, or popularization and tourist guides: these types of sources must be excluded.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this conversation is not going anywhere since you seem unwilling to accept the actual definition of ethnicity in spite of what the vast majority of reliable sources say. You're also insisting that we use the term "Arab-Berber" despite the consensus among editors to redirect the article. Since you're not open to reaching an agreement or accepting a compromise, it appears that we'll have to retain the version of the article as it was prior to this discussion per WP:NOCONSENSUS. Skitash (talk) 15:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Biological and Genetic Basis of Ethnicity

Skitash's assertion that ethnicity is purely a matter of self-identification without any biological or genetic basis is not supported by the majority of scholarly research. Ethnicity is a complex concept that indeed involves a combination of cultural, linguistic, and self-identification factors; however, it is also rooted in shared ancestry and genetic markers. As noted by scholars in the field of population genetics, certain ethnic groups can be distinguished by common genetic traits, which are passed down through generations and often correlate with geographical and historical factors. For instance, the study by Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) highlights how genetic clusters correspond to known ethnic groups, reflecting shared ancestry and genetic heritage. Therefore, while self-identification plays a significant role in the conception of ethnicity, it cannot entirely disregard the biological and genetic components that contribute to the formation of ethnic groups .

2. Misinterpretation of CIA Factbook Data

Regarding Skitash's interpretation of the CIA World Factbook's data on the ethnic composition of Algeria, his claim that "Arab-Amazigh" as a concept is meaningless is factually incorrect and not supported by reliable sources. The CIA Factbook states that Algeria's population is composed of "99% Arab-Berber" and "1% others." This classification acknowledges the significant ethnic overlap and cultural blending between Arabs and Berbers (Amazigh) in Algeria, reflecting the historical and social realities of the region. The term "Arab-Amazigh" is widely accepted in both academic and governmental contexts to describe the ethnic composition of North African populations, where intermarriage and cultural assimilation over centuries have led to a shared identity that encompasses both Arab and Amazigh heritage. Misrepresenting this classification by suggesting an arbitrary percentage like "85% Arab" without credible sources undermines the integrity of the information presented and violates Wikipedia's policy on verifiability.

In summary, Skitash's positions are not aligned with the scholarly consensus on ethnicity or the reliable interpretation of CIA Factbook data. It is crucial to adhere to verifiable and high-quality sources when discussing such topics on Wikipedia to ensure that information is accurate and well-supported by evidence.Potymkin (talk) 22:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

1. "Skitash's assertion that ethnicity is purely a matter of self-identification without any biological or genetic basis is not supported by the majority of scholarly research" It's funny how you're still going on about this when Kovcszaln6 said this is beyond the scope of this discussion, but here are several sources which disprove your claim anyways: + ethnicity.

2. I've already said that the CIA World Factbook source is only there to confirm that only 15% of the population identifies as Berber (just like what the vast majority of reliable sources say). Additionally, I suggest you read these sources that agree on a percentage range of 75–85% Arab, 15–25% Berber and stop reiterating the exact same tedious argument. Skitash (talk) 22:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Seventh statement by moderator (Algeria)

Alright, so there is still misunderstandings about ethnicity. While there may be correlation between genetics and self-identification, it is still based on how the people identify themselves. Please do not continue arguing about this.

Let's try to find a WP:MIDDLEGROUND: the infobox (since it says "ethnic groups") could have Skitash's suggestion, and in or near Algeria#Ethnic_groups a subheading could be created which talks about the genetics. Are you guys fine with that?

Also, please try to minimize back-and-forth discussion; only start and participate in it if it's actually useful. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 08:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Seventh statement by editors (Algeria)

For my part, I have another proposal. As the debate on the ethnic definition is beyond us, I propose to put it aside. However, information which speaks of ethnic ancestry on the basis of haplogroup studies must be integrated into the Ethnic groups section and not another section because in the articles that I have seen none separates section for genetic/biologic data. The debate of what to include in the infobox is something else entirely at this point. On the other hand, it would be beneficial if Skitach refrained from modifying the infobox during our discussion while affirming the status quo. Or does he have more rights than the other contributors? for his infobox proposal it is a misappropriation of the source and it is absolutely out of the question to have in the infobox anything other than what is marked in black and white in a source (stop with unpublished summaries). He is so aware of this that he unduly changed the sources to prove his point. I therefore propose, for infobox, to return to the source 99% Arab-Berber 1% other and explain in a note what the feelings of one or the other are with contradictory figures. This is also the rather clever method used by the CIA Factbook source. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

What part of "Please do not continue arguing about this" do you not understand? Genetics has no place in Algeria#Ethnic groups or the infobox. In fact, I couldn't find a single article that intertwines ethnicity and genetics in the way you are trying to do. Take a look at Iran#Ethnic groups, China#Ethnic groups, or Sudan#Ethnic groups. They all have sections on ethnic groups but not a single one of them discusses genetics at all. All you're trying to do here is push that WP:UNDUE source of yours in spite of the myriad of reliable sources that provide accurate ethnic breakdowns. Skitash (talk) 12:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

After looking into featured country articles, I'd suggest you to look into and consider Madagascar#Ethnic_groups (also Bulgaria#Demographics and Canada#Ethnicity), as featured articles "are considered to be some of the best articles Wikipedia has to offer" and "are used by editors as examples for writing other articles". Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, another section isn't necessary (see Madagascar#Ethnic_groups). And don't edit the article regarding this issue during this discussion (but no need to revert the edit now). Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kovcszaln6 Although Madagascar is the only featured article in that list that incorporates genetics into its ethnic group section, it's important to note that none of those articles use genetic data in the infobox as Monsieur Patillo insists we should. Instead, they present ethnic percentages based purely on identity. I am willing to include genetic data at the end of Algeria#Ethnic groups, provided it is done neutrally and represents all significant viewpoints on Algeria’s genetic makeup fairly, in the condition that @Monsieur Patillo agrees to leave the infobox as it is with the reliably sourced 75–85% Arab/15–25% Berber percentage range.

@Potymkin appears to be reiterating the exact same nonsensical points revolving around the definition of ethnicity and the CIA World Factbook source, and the claims they're making such as "The claim that "85% of Algerians are Arab" is not supported by reliable sources" only suggest that they haven't read the comments or the sources that were provided in this discussion. They continue to treat the CIA World Factbook as the sole source that exists regarding Algeria's ethnic makeup, despite being told ad nauseam why "99% Arab-Berber" is not being used in the article. Skitash (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

The claim that "85% of Algerians are Arab" is not supported by reliable sources. According to the official website of the U.S. Embassy in Algiers, Algeria's population is predominantly of Arab-Berber (Tamazigh) origin, comprising 99% of the population. The website states: "Algeria is an ethnically diverse country, with a majority of its population (99%) being of arab-a mazigh(berber) origin. The Arab identity, which many Algerians associate with, is more of a cultural and linguistic identity than a strictly ethnic one."^[1]

This information directly contradicts the assertion that 85% of Algerians are Arab. The Arab identity in Algeria is more accurately described as a cultural and linguistic identity rather than an ethnic one. Therefore, it is essential to adhere to reliable sources when discussing the ethnic composition of Algeria.

you see @Kovcszaln6 ,The difference between the sources Skitash offers and what we have with CIA factbook is that source is official, belonging to the US embassy in Algiers, certified and approved by the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria's government as a factual source for the maintenance of diplomatic ties, the information sheet of the country profile is also approved by algeria and is considered fact. here the only 2 ethnicities mentioned are 99% Amazigh-Berber and 1% other, there is no mention of 85% arab anywhere, it is No original research by user Skitash. Potymkin (talk) 17:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC) https://2009-2017.state.gov/outofdate/bgn/algeria/33675.htm

Potymkin (talk) 16:38, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Eighth statement by moderator (Algeria)

The question is: are you guys fine with Skitash's suggestion? You don't have to 100% love it; can you live with it? If both of you could answer yes, then we reached consensus. Otherwise, I guess we could work on a formal RfC. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Also in your replies please indicate your opinions about Nikkimaria's suggestion. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 06:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Eighth statement by editors (Algeria)

• This seems like a much better solution - avoiding the whole issue in the lead and leaving discussion of disputed details to the body where it belongs. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  Disagree with Skitach. I would like to point out that I did not insist on putting the getics in the infobox, but refused a separate section (like the Madagascar article which was cited). It is more of a transaction than a real encyclopedic work. It confirms the old unpublished synthesis in another form (with WP:UNDUE and against WP:NOV)

  Almost Agree with Nikkimaria because at least it's neutral while you search for a wording in the section and see later if a consensus emerges for the infobox. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  My detailed explanations: I think that the readings to know if 85% of the population is Arab should be developed in the body of the article.This is not information that is included in all sources. The quality of the sources cited to multiply occurrences (general, imprecise work) is also problematic.

  1) We are on a sensitive NPOV point: what is an Arab as an ethnic group in Algeria, Arabized Berbers? Arabs who have no other form of identity belonging?

  2) There is also a diversity of opinions and readings on the subject (example: Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, "In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin"). So to have a restitution of the range of information, NPOV-compatible the details must be addressed in section. The infobox must ultimately remain fairly neutral in the detail itself (by addressing the notion of Arab-Berber, then by explaining the real or supposed divisions of this large group on section). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with @Monsieur Patillo Statements, and I agree to use Nikkimaria's suggestion. Potymkin (talk) 10:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• While I appreciate Nikkimaria's attempt to resolve the edit conflict, I still believe that we should maintain the status quo and retain the ethnic groups in the infobox. There is no divergence or dispute among reliable sources regarding ethnic identity. They all seem to agree on a 75–85% Arab / 15–25% Berber range. The only issue here is Monsieur Patillo's insistence to impose genetic data in the infobox, which is not the standard practice in any country-related Wikipedia article. Skitash (talk) 10:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  The only issue here is Monsieur Patillo's insistence to impose genetic data in the infobox This point is specifically false (see my comment just above). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Ninth statement by moderator (Algeria)

If I'm correct, we agreed that the body of the article will contain both sources, and the only issue remaining is what should be included in the infobox. There are three options: 1. The current state: 75–85% Arabs, 15–24% Berbers, 1% others 2. 99% Amazigh-Berber, 1% other 3. Nothing.

Is this correct? Are there any suggestions? If not, I'll start the RfC like this. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 17:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Ninth statement by editors (Algeria)

Tenth statement by moderator (Algeria)

It seems like I wasn't clear enough. Would an RfC with the options that I have provided be fine, or do you have suggestions to modify the options? Please just simply reply; do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. If there are no suggestions, I'll start an RfC like this. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 06:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Tenth statement by editors (Algeria)

I added sources to support another motion to add: « 80-90% Berbers » .... The sources are in the drop-down box, should I republish them here below? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

@Monsieur Patillo: So you'd like a fourth option, 80-90% Berbers, supported by these sources, correct? If yes, what would be the other 10-20%? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm in favor of starting an RfC with these three options. Skitash (talk) 11:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

There is also this source cited above.

Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, «More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya.».

The outrageous remarks of Skitach, that the source of an eminent professor is Berberist are not admissible. On the other hand Jihad M. Hamdan and Sara Kessar of the University of Jordan who repeat these remarks and those of Chaker are also Berberists? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 12:15, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I add a source that clearly demonstrates that the ethnic concepts of Arabs vs Berbers are vague in the Maghreb. It therefore supports the thesis of Arab-Amaaigh, of a population mainly of Amazigh origin, or to put nothing. In any case, making us believe that Algerians are Arabs, without any form of nuance is a deception.

Moha Ennaji, Multiculturalism and Democracy in North Africa : Aftermath of the Arab Spring, , Taylor & Francis:

The terms "Arabs" and "Berbers” are misleading and not to be understood in an ethnic sense. The first inhabitants of North Africa were Berbers, and when Islam reached the region, it Islamized the population completely, but did not lead to its full Arabization. Today, it is preferable to refer to the populations in the region as Berberophone and Arabophone. In Morocco and Algeria, there is a linguistic issue, not a racial one, particularly the problematic of the integration of the Amazigh language in all walks of public life. Historically, many Berbers areas became completly arabized, and conversely many Arab zone were Berberized. Thus, the so called "Arabs" in Morocco and Algeria consist mainly of Arabized Berbers. In both countries, almorst everybody's origin is Berber, but only a minority speak Berber, about 40 percent and 15 percent of the total population of Morocco and Algeria, respectively (Chaker 1998:16; Benrabah, this volume).

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 13:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Eleventh statement by moderator (Algeria)

@Monsieur Patillo: 1. You'd like a fourth option, 80-90% Berbers, correct? 2. What is the other 10-20%? 3. What are the sources for this claim? If you have already listed them, please link to that; otherwise, please list them. 4. Do you have any other suggestions to the RfC?

@Potymkin: Do you have any other suggestions to the RfC?

@Skitash: 1. These sources support your preferred option, correct? 2. Do you have any other suggestions to the RfC?

Please just simply respond; do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Eleventh statement by editors (Algeria)

Heterodox Academy discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Summary of dispute by Cambial Yellowing

Kof 2102966 claims but editor looked upon them as evidence of the US supporting ISIL in this Wikipedia entry. Which editor they do not specify, presumably themself. (?) They write that the quotes serve to imply that the US provided weapons to ISIL.

Contrary to this claim, as can be seen above, the quotes include that these were diversions, and there is no implication otherwise. in the most rapid case [of] diversion they documented, "anti-tank weapons purchased by the United States that ended up in possession of the Islamic State (emphasis added).

Kof2102966's only proposed solution is to delete the entire paragraph. It's been suggested to Kof2102966 that they propose a different contextualisation to address their issue with the text. In response they made a personal attack and posted here. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The problem is not who is the editor, the problem is whether combining the entry that “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in syria” and

“Another study conducted by private company Conflict Armament Research at the behest of the European Union and Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit found that external support for anti-Assad Syrian rebels "significantly augmented the quantity and quality of weapons available to ISIL forces", including, in the most rapid case diversion they documented, "anti-tank weapons purchased by the United States that ended up in possession of the Islamic State within two months of leaving the factory.”

will imply that the US provided weapons to ISIL or not. By the way, the quotes here did not mention any “these weapon were diversions”.We are talking about whether combining them will imply that the US provided weapons to ISIL or not, don't them discussed separately or change the subject.And talking about the "personal attack", if you think the word "That is too arrogant" is personal attack,then why don't you think charging me with"deleting reliably-sourced content with a spurious attempted justification" is not a "personal attack"? Kof2102966 (talk) 14:45, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

United States and state-sponsored terrorism discussion

• Volunteer Note - If the two parties want an unbiased third editor to offer an opinion about whether a conclusion is synthesis amounting to original research, one option would be to request a Third Opinion at the Third Opinion Noticeboard. This might be quicker than moderated discussion, Robert McClenon (talk) 03:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Third Opinion is not enough, and we don't need very quick. It is all ok for me. Thank you. Kof2102966 (talk) 08:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

The filing editor forgot to notify the other editor. However, the other editor has replied, so notification can be waived, because they already know about this dispute request. I am ready to serve as the moderator if the editors both want moderated discussion. If there is discussion, it will be conducted under DRN Rule D. Please read DRN Rule D. This discussion involves American politics, which are a contentious topic, so that disruptive editing is subject to the contentious topics procedure.

Do you both agree to moderated discussion, and to comply with the ground rules, and to acknowledge that the contentious topics rules are in effect? If so, will each editor please state concisely what they want to change in the article, or what they want to leave unchanged that the other editor wants to change? The purpose of content dispute resolution is to improve the article, and we are discussing how to improve the article, so that that will be the focus of this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I request to delete the text that

“Another study conducted by private company Conflict Armament Research at the behest of the European Union and Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit found that external support for anti-Assad Syrian rebels "significantly augmented the quantity and quality of weapons available to ISIL forces", including, in the most rapid case diversion they documented, "anti-tank weapons purchased by the United States that ended up in possession of the Islamic State within two months of leaving the factory.” is under the entry that “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in syria” Kof2102966 (talk) 10:46, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Robert, I agree to most of Rule D, the only exceptions being points 3. and 10. I'll not be bound not to report any issues about the article or the editing of the article at any other noticeboards. If Kof2102966 chooses to ignore WP:5P4 and engage in further personal attacks, I'll be reporting it in the normal way; similarly with inappropriate edits. This is in no way forum shopping, because it is Kof2102966 that has chosen to come to this particular venue, not me. I would think I would be able to meet point 10, but IRL commitments may prevent this. We are only here because Kof2102966 has refused to discuss or propose any solution other than deleting the paragraph they disagree with. Cambial — foliar❧ 00:39, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not up to you to decide whether my word is a personal attack or not, that's administrators' duty. You'd better watch your tongue, because if the administrator judges that the charges of "personal attack" were not proven, according to Casting aspersions, you will become the guy who started the personal attack, and your editing of my message will be vandalism. Now focus on the content we were discussing. Kof2102966 (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Statement 0.5 by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

I have written revised DRN Rule D1, and made two changes. First, I infer that what Cambial Yellowing is saying about D.3 is that they will not give their word that they will not report disruptive editing. I did not intend the rule to be an advance commitment not to report disruptive editing, but a notice that any such report will end the mediation. I have revised rule D.3 so that it clarifies that point, and I will consider changing all of the DRN Rules to clarify that you are not promising not to make a report to WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement, but I am stating that any such report will end the mediation. Is that satisfactory? Also, I have changed D.10 to say that you should try to respond within 48 hours, and that you should notify the moderator if you know that you will be busy. User:Cambial Yellowing - If you agree, please state what article content you wish to change that the other editor wants to leave the same, or what you want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Statement 0.5 by editors (US-sponsored terrorism)

Wow, we've not even started and Kof2102966 you've broken the ground rules to which you agreed (point 6). Very disappointing. Kof2102966 says they want to remove a paragraph, and the RS on which it is based. I don't think it should be removed. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:22, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (US-sponsored terrorism)

Why doesn't he realize he is the first one who've broken the rule (point 4.1 and 4.2) which he agreed? If he resisted focusing on the context, just accusing me of misbehaviour without evidence, I request the moderator to warn him. Let me expound my reason, no matter how to edit this text, when it is combined with “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in Syria”, it implies that the US provided weapons to ISIL, even if pointing out the weapon is transferred to ISIL, it still can implies that the US provided weapons to ISIL through the anti-Assad Syrian rebels. Deleting it is the only way. If it did not imply anything, this context should be unrelated to the entry of “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in Syria”, the irrelevant context should be remove. Kof2102966 (talk) 12:22, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

Do you, both of you, want moderated discussion about article content, to see if we can resolve the content issue without discussing conduct, or do you want to go to WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement first? I do not intend to examine times to determine whether any violations of the rules occurred before or after you agreed to the rules, if you both want to address the content issue by moderated discussion. Either agree (again, if appropriate) to DRN Rule D1 and follow it beginning now, and we will discuss content, or continue to argue about who did what first, in which case the administrators at Arbitration Enforcement may or may not examine the timestamps. I recommend agreeing to the rules going forward, because that will avoid the likelihood of topic-bans, but, if so, you must agree to the rules again, just so that we don't deal with the past.

If you have not yet stated what you want to change in the article or leave the same in the article, answer that question when also agreeing to DRN Rule D1. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (US-sponsored terrorism)

I'm suspending my agreement until we can first establish whether this is even worth pursuing. You ask if I want moderated discussion. Not particularly: we're here at Kof2102966's request, not mine. I'm fine with discussing changes at article talk. I don't believe this is necessarily the most appropriate process, for the following reason.

In my view, if Kof2102966 is willing to discuss changes to the text that might alleviate whatever they perceive as a problem, we can have that discussion. But as Kof2102966 reiterates for a fourth time in their most recent comment above, the only possible outcome for them is their own: "Deleting it is the only way." Kof2102966 expressly asks for a ruling in their original post, requesting "a judgment" on their charge of synthesis. They apparently hope for a "ruling" from this process that will enable them to restore their original edit. But that's not the purpose of moderated discussion.

If Kof2102966 can agree to discuss other potential changes to the text, we can have a discussion about such changes. If they would prefer to do so in a moderated discussion here, I'm happy to agree to the amended rules in Robert McClenon's essay. But if the discussion is to be "we must delete it" and anything else is out of the question, I fear this process will be unproductive at best. Is Kof2102966 willing to discuss other outcomes?

A note to moderator: I've done nothing even remotely close to something that might warrant a topic ban (nor even discussion at ANI), so I don't appreciate veiled threats, however well-intentioned, that you cannot personally implement anyway. Cambial — foliar❧ 21:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

If the only content issue is the deletion of a paragraph, then a Request for Comments is probably in order, rather than moderated discussion.

What I should have said about a filing with a conduct forum, and will now say, is that an editor should read the boomerang essay before filing with WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. If you haven't edited disruptively, filing with a conduct forum won't result in sanctions against you. I will still advise editors in general not to file a conduct report if there are any content-oriented approaches available.

Are there any other content issues than deletion of a paragraph? If not, should I prepare a neutrally worded RFC concerning the deletion of the paragraph, rather than conducting moderated discussion?

Moderated discussion is voluntary. We will only have moderated discussion if both editors want moderated discussion. Otherwise either talk page discussion or an RFC are options. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:39, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (US-sponsored terrorism)

Hold on a second, I have some questions to ask moderator. What I want is to find someone authoritative enough to judge whether a conclusion is synthesis amounting to original research. If so, I'll ask for deleting it. If not, leave it be. You mean we cannot achieve it here? Kof2102966 (talk) 14:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a hierarchy. If authority and hierarchy is what you came to Wikipedia looking for, this may not be the website for you. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Very funny, don't you just say the replying under statements by other editors will break the ground rules(point 6).And I'm asking moderator, not you, would you just be quiet? Kof2102966 (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I've not agreed to those rules: I specifically disengaged from them. You chose this venue. The reality is that the authority figure you want to make a ruling to enable you to redo your edit does not exist on Wikipedia. And no, you don't get to tell other editors to be quiet. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Summary of dispute by SLIMHANNYA

Kyoto International Junior and Senior High School discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Summary of dispute by Zlogicalape

Joseph Barbera discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Summary of dispute by Marcelus

Dominika Banevi%C4%8D discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Summary of dispute by Alltan

Summary of dispute by Maleschreiber

Summary of dispute by Krisitor

Kuči discussion

I don't believe the other side will ever comment on this. They will try to ignore this, as they do not want to get to the consensus, they want their own POV. Setxkbmap (talk) 20:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.