Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 57

Opening comments by Montanabw

My position is on the talk page already, but I will restate it here: As I see it, the first problem is use of the WP:MEDRS standard to create an NPOV problem: the removal of material with a pro-organic food slant, leaving only material with an anti-organic food slant. The second issue is if MEDRS should be applied to this article at all, not at all, or somewhere in-between? I would refine this question further: if MEDRS applies to this article at all, should it apply a) to ALL aspects of the article (including, e.g. farming methods, chemistry questions, etc.) ; b) only to "medical" or "health" claims (whatever those are, but this issue arose over a question of whether pesticide residues on non-organic foods have a cancer link, so let's focus on that one); and if b) applies, then c) Is the question of pesticide residue entirely a medical claim subject to MEDRS in the first place or is it also a non-medical question involving politics and other issues? if so, are these relevant to balance the NPOV of the article?

My position is that WP:RS is suitable, perhaps WP:SCIRS though, clearly, MEDRS sources are great - when available. Further, the edit I suggested (at talk) clearly identifies the sources and their POV so that the reader can assess the information for themselves. To me, the concerns raised are akin to early claims linking smoking to lung cancer or carbon emissions to climate change; mainstream researchers first debunked these claims, but now, with time, have upheld them. Most such concerns are raised long before there are sufficient mainstream studies, thus narrow MEDRS adherence may in fact violate NPOV. Further, my own position is stated at MEDRS itself: "sources for all other types of content—including all non-medical information in medicine-related articles—are covered by the general guideline on identifying reliable sources rather than this specific guideline." Montanabw^(talk) 19:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by The Banner

A short respons: Focus of the conflict is a blatant refusal to allow more reliable sources into the chapter "Health and safety". It is rather weird that in an article about producing food and part of the WikiProject Agriculture, no agricultural sources are allowed to references statements about health, safety, nutrients and taste. Those agricultural sources, although of the highest standard, are treated as completely unreliable. The blanket ban of these sources has led to an article that is POV and one sided. It gives undue weight to the medical side of growing food, due to the fact that only medicals sources (WP:MEDRS) are allowed. Every statement using agricultural sources to back up claims in the chapter "Health and safety", are consequently removed. Discussion about this point was as walking into a concrete pillbox and proved utterly useless. The Banner _talk 20:28, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Yobol

The focus of the dispute seems to be about proper sourcing for portions of the article dealing with nutritional content and safety of organic foods. My reading of WP:MEDRS finds that any health claim in any article, whether about food or not, falls under WP:MEDRS, including Organic food. Others in the dispute have claimed that since this is a food article, WP:MEDRS doesn't apply in the article at all. Clearly MEDRS does not apply to non health related matters (such as specifics of farming). However, discussion of nutritional values and safety are clearly health claims, and therefore fall under WP:MEDRS. I would like sourcing of material to be appropriate for the content; medical/nutritional sources (in this case WP:MEDRS compliant sourcing) should be used for medical/nutritional claims; agricultural sources used for agricultural material.

A related side dispute has focused on the neutrality of the article, specifically regarding whether there is a bias about the conclusions from sources. The position of WP:MEDRS compliant sourcing is fairly clear in that there is no significant nutritional or safety benefits from either organic or conventional foods. Some have claimed that since "pro" organic food claims are not sufficiently represented, there is a bias, and therefore inferior sourcing needs to be added to adjust for this bias. I think this is putting the cart before the horse; this argument has neutrality and weight determined before hand, and sources found to support that bias, rather than letting the sources dictate what the neutral point of view is. This is clearly an inappropriate way to write this article from a neutral point of view. We should summarize what the best (MEDRS) sources say, no matter what the outcome; we should not artificially adjust the weight to some predetermined outcome and use inferior sources to justify them. If none of the best MEDRS compliant sources support organic food as superior, then that is the neutral point of view, and trying to shift it with inferior sourcing is POV pushing and has to stop. (I note that at no point has there been a presentation of a MEDRS compliant source to support the superiority of organic food; just the arguing of the use of non MEDRS to be used to justify that conclusion).Yobol (talk) 19:40, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Your opening statement is about 200 characters over the limit but it's not enough over the limit to need to get trimmed. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 21:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by The Four Deuces

This may be a diversion. Since no one has presented any sources that meet the policy of neutrality, MEDRS does not arise. If we find that there is consensus in the literature of agricultural sciences that organic food is superior in nutrients, then this would be reflected in the literature in nutritional sciences, making the point moot. Only in the event that there was disagreement between different sciences on the same facts would MEDRS become an issue. But then we would expect reliable sources covering the dispute and could address the problem then. TFD (talk) 22:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by IRWolfie-

Noone has focused on the actual content under dispute. Here is the content under dispute: . As you can see it is full of claims about regular food being a cancer risk etc, thus WP:MEDRS sources are required. As you can also see, it's a WP:SYNTH being used explicitly to counter the MEDRS sources above it. Montanabw has been pushing that their is a large conspiracy to thwart small organic producers by "big grain" sourcing it to "Motherearthnews" and Cornucopia.org, commondreams.org amongst others, and that we shouldn't use MEDRS. The Banner has refused to clarify whether he think MEDRS sources are required for cancer risks. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by bobrayner

Keeping it short - DRN can involve a lot of reading and I don't want to make life harder for people.
I feel that WP:MEDRS is clear, from the first paragraph, that we expect stronger sourcing for medical & health claims even in articles that are mainly about other topics; in the same way that we apply WP:BLP to claims about living people in other articles. Talkpage discussion seems to suggest that the strongest sources do not support the kind of claims which some editors would like to see, and they would like to change the rules in order to allow less-reliable sources to be used which say different things; I would say that tweaking sourcing rules until we find something that says what we want is back-to-front. bobrayner (talk) 23:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by uninvolved MrADHD

WP:MEDRS is a guideline to cover medical content, such as medical facts and medical claims. Any use of MEDRS outside of medical content is a WP:GOODFAITHed misuse of MEDRS. From a very brief brief look at this dispute it may be the case that people on both sides of the dispute are not interpreting policies and guidelines appropriately.--MrADHD | T@1k? 22:34, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Organic food discussion

Hi, I'm Ebe123, an volunteer at DRN. MedRS only applies to parts of articles relating to medicine, and WP:RS is for other things. High-quality reliable references are good, but avreage RSs are also good as they are reliable nontheless. I would like a list of the references of which this dispute is centered upon. We will still wait though for the two other parties before discussion.

• Clarification: I think (hope?) that all the parties involved can agree that this diff is the core of the dispute, notably the inclusion of the paragraph beginning "However, a 1989 peer-reviewed study sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council ..." and then the previous paragraphs that begin that section, which outline the opposing view. Montanabw^(talk) 22:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you can outline why you restored material about cancer risks which was inadequately sourced and a synthesis to counter the previous section. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

To The Banner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), your last edit, where you have a diff showing IRWolfie- threatening an AN/I thread is not about the content dispute, but rather the behavioural side. I suggest you remove it. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 21:16, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The remark was removed about 20 minutes before you wrote this. The Banner _talk 23:28, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: WP:MEDRS says

Therefore, it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge... This guideline supports the general sourcing policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability with specific attention given to sources appropriate for the medical and health-related content in any type of article, including alternative medicine... Sources for all other types of content—including all non-medical information in medicine-related articles [is not covered by MEDRS].

--Noleander (talk) 22:05, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

(Emphasis added to foregoing quote.) So, if it is health-related content then MEDRS applies. Based upon the responses given by the disputants, above, however, I'm not quite sure whether the dispute here is really:

1. A dispute over whether MEDRS applies to particular content or, on the other hand,
2. Not a dispute over whether MEDRS applies, there being agreement that it does, but a dispute over whether it should be applied in this particular case because to do so causes (it is argued) the article to be unbalanced.

Would someone care to clarify that distinction? I suppose that it might be possible that both disputes exist. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 01:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Based on my reading of the Talk page (and the opening statements above), there are a couple additional issues involved in addition to the two that TrasnporterMan mentions above:

3) Given that MEDRS applies to health-related material, can "agricutural" RSs be used for such material (in addition to medical/scientific sources)?

4) Under what circumstances, if any, can health claims be included in the article without scientific/research RSs?

To illustrate issue (4), compare these two sentences:

a) "Organic food is healthier than non-organic food in the following way ..."

b) "Organization ABC states that organic food is healthier than non-organic food as follows ...."

Statement (a), in the encyclopedia's voice, does need strong sourcing per MEDRS, particularly scientific/research sources. However, statement (b) need not have scientific sourcing (in my opinion) because it is simply reporting who the proponents are, and what their claims are (see WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV). --Noleander (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi TransporterMan, my understanding of the range of the dispute is that there are basically three questions:

1. Does WP:MEDRS apply to sourcing for every biomedical claim in the article?

• There is an argument being brought forward that WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing need not be required for every biomedical claim in the article because it's a food and not a medical article.
• My view: I do not believe this view is correct. WP:MEDRS has wording indicating it applies to "biomedical information in all types of articles," and the fact that this is a food article does not release it from the need to have WP:MEDRS-quality sourcing for any biomedical claims it makes.

2. Can the article have biomedical claims not sourced to WP:MEDRS-compliant sources alongside quite possibly contradictory claims supported by WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing?

• There is an argument being brought forward that non-WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing needs to allowed to counter a perceived POV problem that the insistence on only WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing for all biomedical claims introduces.
• My view: The "POV" introduced by insisting on WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing for all biomedical claims is beneficial and the intended result of the application of Wikipedia guideline.

3. Are certain claims that the article makes or might make truly "biomedical" claims that require WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing?

• Such claims are things like: Whether consumers express a difference in the taste or perceived quality of organic vs. non-organic food, or whether there are nutritional content or food safety differences (levels of amino acids, vitamins, pesticides) between the two types of foods.
• My view: These need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I feel that nutrition and food safety claims would fall under WP:MEDRS requirements.

Zad68 03:43, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I have not been involved in editing this article, but have made some comments in the talk. I think that Zad summarises the questions reasonably well, but I have a different view on the answer to those questions. In my view, the scope of 'biomedical' is being applied too widely by some editors on this page in respect of whether MEDRS applies. The nub of the problem in this respect is that research on organic food is frequently not conducted by medical experts, but by experts in agriculture or related disciplines, and this results in the articles being in journals that those editors are reluctant to accept. In addition, some of the areas under contention have a fairly limited number of peer reviewed articles, and editors are strongly pointing to the requirement in MEDRS to use review articles - there just aren't that many for this topic, and to me that is an indication to use some of the individual articles, with appropriate wording and attribution. At the moment, because of this insistence on MEDRS rather than just RS i believe that a systemic bias has been introduced, and whilst some editors think that this is a good thing, i think it runs against the principles and objectives which underly the WP sourcing policies. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 07:56, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you think MEDRS is required for content about cancer risks? IRWolfie- (talk) 10:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

If cancer is related to medicine (yes). ~~Ebe123~~ → report 12:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

This complete focus on cancer is one of the techniques mr. Wolfie uses to kill off effective discussion. Above he is again hammering on the fact that I added a text about cancer. In fact, I just reverted a removal, but mr. Wolfie chooses to ignore that. Earlier in the discussion I removed a piece of POV, that mr. Wolfie immediately reverted. The case was that the IOFGA (organic certification organization) encourages "effective homeopathy". This can be looked up in their organic standards. But instead of accepting WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, he repeatedly added that homeopathy does work. Most likely that is true, but adding this in this article is out of place and totally POV. That case was solved by somebody else, who just removed the whole section. I agreed with that, because better no section than a POV one. But this attitude of mr. Wolfie makes working and discussing organic food very difficult. People are free to have their own opinions about organic food, but the article must be neutral at all times. The sourcing disagreement is one of the factors preventing the creation of a balanced, neutral article. The Banner 86.40.144.154 (talk) 14:34, 11 December 2012 (UTC) at public computer

Here is the text which banner added: "The Soil Association's organic standards encourage the use of effective homeopathy and prevention on livestock, using veterinary medicines only in emergencies." (Highlight is my addition) . Clearly it indicates that some homeopathy is effective, a MEDRS claim. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

It is a statement of the Soil Association. It is found in their Organic Standards, to be precise: page 138, section 10.10.21. So, this is a fact. However, you added the POV addition that it was not effective (). True or not, in this article it is out of place, POV and, in my opinion, no health claim. Just an advice to use a certain method. The Banner _talk 22:35, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Statements from other organizations have quotations, you said it in the wikipedia tone. That homeopathy is not effective isn't POV, it's an accurate summary of the secondary sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Another third party editor here. I think that Zad68's proposal of judging the sources on a case by case basis is promising. Perhaps the parties should list all of the contested sources? Then we'll discuss each source individually.--xanchester (t) 13:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with IRWolfie and Xanchester that we may, and probably will, ultimately have to look at individual assertions and sources, but we have to establish the ground rules first.

• Owain.davies comments, just above, perhaps puts the question into the best focus. My feeling about that is this: MEDRS says that it applies to health-related material. If the material that is under discussion is health-related, then MEDRS applies. Owain says that this inserts a systemic bias which "runs against the principles and objectives which underly the WP sourcing policies". I think that he's dead right, but is dead wrong about it being opposed to policy because the bias was clearly and intentionally considered and adopted by the community when MEDRS was adopted. The second paragraph of the lede of MEDRS says that pretty explicitly:

  "Wikipedia's articles, while not intended to provide medical advice, are nonetheless an important and widely used source of health information. Therefore, it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge."

  This is an intentional and community-agreed-upon bias against health-related information not supported by MEDRS-quality sourcing due to the importance of the type of material involved. The existence of that bias is not, therefore, a legitimate objection to the application of MEDRS. That being the case, then if material is health-related, then MEDRS must apply. Is it possible that there are health-related areas which should be an exception to MEDRS? Certainly it is possible, but there are only two proper ways to deal with them: First, to seek to have MEDRS modified to allow those exceptions. Second, to create an IAR local exception to MEDRS in a particular article. Taking these one at a time, an exception to MEDRS must be discussed and created at the MEDRS talk page so that the entire community can have notice of it and take part, following the procedures outlined in the Policy policy (not a typo). This discussion is, therefore, inappropriate for that purpose. The second possibility, an IAR local exception, can and should occur at an article talk page, but must be adopted by a clear consensus since MEDRS is, per the Consensus policy the "established consensus" of the community. I've not counted heads or, per IRWolfie and Xanchester, evaluated arguments, but on first blush there certainly does not appear to be a consensus to create an exception to MEDRS. Thus, in my opinion, unless MEDRS is amended to provide for an exception for health-related material involving organic food, then MEDRS must be applied to all health-related material involving organic food unless an IAR local exception is created by consensus, which does not appear to have happened here.
• What, then, does health-related mean? In this case, it most obviously means any assertion that relates to the questions of whether organic food can either improve one's health over non-organic food or that organic food can prevent harm to one's health arising from non-organic food. There are issues relating to organic food which are not health-related, for example, that it is more appealing to the senses or that there are consumer issues regarding what should and should not be regarded as or labeled or regulated at organic food simply as a truth-in-advertising matter. But even those issues can become health-related (for example, an assertion that because organic food is more appealing to the senses that children are more likely to be willing to eat organic fruits and vegetables which, entirely apart from any claims that organic food is more healthy than non-organic food, will improve their health because children need more fruits and vegetables than they are ordinarily willing to eat or an assertion that the decision about which foods should be permitted to be labeled as being organic should turn on whether or not those foods are more health than non-organic foods) and when they do, then MEDRS must apply unless one of the exception-making procedures described above is adopted.
• Agricultural assertions: It depends, if they're health-related then they must be MEDRS-sourced; if they're not, then no.
• Non-MEDRS sources when discussing claims made for the benefit of organic foods: For example, and this is entirely made up for the purpose of this example, "Organizations X, Y, and Z claim that the consumption of organic citrus fruit reduces the risk of the common cold 25% more than non-organic citrus fruits." Those claims have been questioned and a controversy (outside of Wikipedia) has arisen. Can non-MEDRS sources be used to talk about that controversy? No, the controversy is over a health-related matter and only MEDRS sources can be used to discuss it. Does that mean that some claims and controversies, perhaps huge ones, cannot be reported in this article because there have been no MEDRS-quality evaluations of them. It means just that. Does it mean that only the MEDRS-biased evaluations get to appear in the article if there have been evaluations. It means that too, because the community has decided that's the way that it's going to be in adopting MEDRS.
• "Does WP:MEDRS apply to sourcing for every biomedical claim in the article?" Yes, for the reasons stated above. The Wikipedia community has decided that where health-related matters are concerned, only MEDRS-sourced material will be reported.
• "Can the article have biomedical claims not sourced to WP:MEDRS-compliant sources alongside quite possibly contradictory claims supported by WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing?" Yes, but only to the extent that those contradictory claims have been evaluated and reported on in MEDRS sources.
• "Are certain claims that the article makes or might make truly "biomedical" claims that require WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing? Such claims are things like: Whether consumers express a difference in the taste or perceived quality of organic vs. non-organic food, or whether there are nutritional content or food safety differences (levels of amino acids, vitamins, pesticides) between the two types of foods." Answered above at more length, but: Taste is not alone a health-related claim but a health-related claim could be attached to it. Nutritional content may not be, if discussed in the absolute abstract, a health-related claim, but will be a health-related claim if it is claimed or implied that organic foods will improve your health in ways that consumption of non-organic foods will not. That's nearly always going to be the case, so claims about nutritional information are probably almost always going to require MEDRS sources and that's particularly likely if there is any controversy or dispute over the nutritional content.

This at least sets what I believe to be the baseline for this discussion and the analysis of the individual sources. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

• 100% endorse TransporterMan's evaluation of what the dispute is and analysis of how Wikipedia policy and guideline should be applied. Zad68 16:38, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with TransporterMan, IRWolfie- (talk) 17:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I also agree with TransporterMan's evaluation. Yobol (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Reject. Not everything in the chapter "Health and safety" needs MEDRS. The Banner _talk 01:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Completely arbitrary section break

Somewhere in the above mess, Banner suggested that we need the third party volunteers to kindly step back in and try to sum up what's going on and make some sense of this situation. I have also said this. As far as I can tell, we are going in circles and are nowhere close to any kind of a solution. I think three of the four primary editors here are showing some evidence of movement, and Krem offered us many, many good sources, but we appear also to have one editor who has not moved from his/her original position. So: volunteers: can you help us see if there is ANY consensus from the four of us (me, Banner, Yobol and Wolfie), and if any movement at all, what appears to be the most workable areas where we might get to an agreement, and what areas appear to have irreconcilable differences? Montanabw^(talk) 21:36, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I found myself here after reading the original article and then taking a look at the talk page. I am no wikipedia editor or even a DRN volunteer. Having said that, I did take a look at everything people have said so far.

In my view the problem you have been circling around is how health and safety related claims of agricultural journals and organic food advocacy groups should be presented in the article or if they should be presented at all. I see three alternatives: i) these claims are presented in the Health and Safety section, ii) they are given a new separate section, iii) they are completely left out.

1. Personally, and I believe most people will agree, I would not trust non-medical literature with any kind of health claims. It doesn't matter if the agricultural journals are highly respected or not, there should be no "agricultural view" on health and safety in an encyclopaedia, even if it relates to food. As a result, the first alternative is not viable in my eyes.

2. Following on point (1), I would say that any health claims fall under WP:MEDRS. Things I can think of that do not fall under MEDRS are taste, nutritional content and pesticide residue concentration, but there could be others.

3. For pesticide residues, unless the studies compare organic and non-organic food, it is probably inappropriate to use health claims made otherwise it would probably be WP:SYNTH. Instead it may be better to link to the Health effects of pesticides article where many of the articles mentioned earlier in the discussion also belong.

My recommendation would be a separate section of the organic food advocates point of view, which may also include the history of the debate. Health claims in the new section should be avoided or mentioned as as-of-yet unverified or perceived benefits. The Health and Safety section should then mostly be WP:MEDRS while the new section could consider WP:RS and WP:FRINGE.

As an aside, I would propose migrating the environmental impact section to the organic farming article when this issue is resolved.

To move things forward, I would first ask Montanabw and The Banner to indicate to what degree they agree with points 1 and 2 above and what their specific objections are. I am afraid that this is the major sticking point in the debate and if resolved a solution will come quickly. 131.159.61.107 (talk) 11:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I hope I am wrong, but are you saying that the guys who produce and research food are not qualified to comment on food in relation to (perceived) health claims and food safety? And do you consider growing vegetables using organic methods as WP:FRINGE? The Banner _talk 12:13, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course they can comment and I already proposed to add their opinion if benefits are qualified as perceived. On the other hand, I think it is not appropriate to include their opinion on health matters in WP, especially in encyclopaedia language. This is even more true if they go against secondary sources that are MEDRS. I also don't think that growing food with organic methods is WP:FRINGE, I put that because some claims/sources might qualify because they go against current consensus. Moreover, fringe does not necessarily equal pseudoscience. 131.159.61.107 (talk) 12:36, 19 December 2012 (UTC) - Edited to add a small comment.

Ok, that sounds a lot better then your first comment. Point is that is very difficult to say "Stuff A causes Disease C" or the other way round. At best you can say that "Stuff A gives a higher risk on Disease C". Virtually everybody will know a 90-something smoker who is still perfectly healthy although smoking for 80 years. Others can die quickly of it (). Risk and a bit of bad luck can cause a lot of misery. On the other hand, some guys also wanted MEDRS-sources for claims like "Vegetable B contains significantly more of [[Stuff D]], what is said to have positive effects on the natural resistance against disease". In my opinion, what is said about Stuff D does not need a MEDRS-source in the article about Organic Food. It is a unnecessary complication for this article, as the article about Stuff D should contain the MEDRS-sources. The first part of the sencence is, in my opinion, not a health claim whatsoever. The Banner _talk 13:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, I think this is a step forward. So do you agree that claims about taste, nutritional content, etc. do not need MEDRS, but any claims linking with a disease or condition or other health effect should be MEDRS-sourced (or linked to a more comprehensive article, e.g. Health effects of pesticides)? 131.159.61.107 (talk) 13:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes and no. The first part: yes. The second part (but any claims linking with a disease or condition or other health effect should be MEDRS-sourced (or linked to a more comprehensive article, e.g. Health effects of pesticides) no. The point is "should be MEDRS-sourced". I can agree with a combination of MEDRS-sources plus other high quality peer reviewed sources (at least conform WP:RS). (Unfortunately, I know that other will strongly disagree on this point.) The Banner _talk 13:42, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I think here is the big problem. As far as I understand WP policies, it has been decided that health/medical claims should be sourced using WP:MEDRS. It has also been acknowledged that any bias introduced because of that policy is intentional. There are three ways out of this, that I can see:

1. The MEDRS policy stays in place as is, but obviously you don't agree with that.

2. A separate section is written as I proposed above, e.g "arguments for organic food" where it is clear that any claims made there are not supported by current medical consensus. I don't know of course if the other participants will agree to that and you may not either for that matter.

3. You need to show that there is an extraordinary reason for including other sources along with MEDRS.

It is my feeling that if you go for the third option, it will be difficult to be resolved here. 131.159.61.107 (talk) 16:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that WP:MEDRS is acted upon as a policy, carved in rock and protected by seventien armies complete with trenching, barbed wire and minefields. In fact, it is only a guideline. And on the top of that page is a little banner saying This page documents an English Wikipedia content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page. Especially the "Common sense" is funny, because every time the health-word appears on the horizon, every common sense goes out of the window and all soldiers rush to their trenches and prepare for battle.

Using common sense makes it possible to compromise. A I said above I can agree with a combination of MEDRS-sources plus other high quality peer reviewed sources (at least conform WP:RS). But before we can go on, Yobol and Wolfie need to have their say. The Banner _talk 23:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary Section Break the Nth

Ok, I've looked at this dispute for a significant while and I've seen no real concise explanation of what people might be willing to accept amongst the reams of WP:TLDR material. As a volunteer at DRN I think that this is too large for DRN to deal with therefore I propose that a widely advertised RfC be conducted to determine what sourcing guideline should be used in relation to claims in this article. Pending significant objection, I intend to close this filing (which has gone on for far too long) in 24 hours from my signature Hasteur (talk) 18:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Agree this DRN discussion isn't heading in the direction of consensus. Sadly, we did already discuss at the article Talk page the idea of starting an RFC, however we could not even come to agreement on how to word the RFC--see Talk:Organic_food#Suggestion_for_an_RfC_question. Maybe we could get help doing that? Zad68 18:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I can support Hasteur's close but an RFC? Oh shit. Thanks mostly to one editor who refuses to budge, we want to have a six-month drahmah that's going to make climate change look like people holding hands and singing Kum-Ba-Yah? Just what I was afraid of. Phooey. I say unlock the article, let the editing improve and sourcing commence, and maybe see if we can go back to looking at individual edits. Montanabw^(talk) 19:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Call the direct question: "Which reliable source guideline should be used for statements of various natures in this article?" This allows people to make cases for WP:MEDRS/WP:SCIRS/WP:RS for which statements. Probably a list of what types of statements there are (incidence of disease, nutrition, biology of the growing food, pesticide residue, etc) with people making a case for the specific guideline and a endorsement block. If it's obvious (>75% support) that one guideline is more supported than others, then take that for those types. If it's a mixed consensus, do a run-off (eliminate the lowest support) and try again. I know this borders into voting/polling, but there's so many different choices out there we have to try and funnel to a consensus that is maintainable. Hasteur (talk) 19:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I think if the third parties here could do this as a straight vote, maybe put the categories into a table or something, and ask each of us "combatants" to simply vote, no editorializing, no arguments, just a flat yes or no (or maybe an "abstain because I disagree with something related to the category/question") it would help. I think that we DO need to narrow things down, and this probably won't happen without help from the third parties. Montanabw^(talk) 22:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

This is close to the kind of RFC I'd support. I'd take it down one step lower and have the RFC provide specific examples of proposed article content and sources. It would be great if this DRN discussion could at least result in an agreement on how to word the RFC. Zad68 19:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Only problem, Zad, is that the current article itself need some improvement in content on both sides -- there are dead links in there and all sorts of things. I guess what I'm saying is that I can see the value of getting "perfect" content proposed by each side, but I think we are all a little hesitant to do the work of doing up those perfect sections when there is so little agreement ... I know that makes for a circular argument... but it's part of the problem; a bit of being gun-shy. Montanabw^(talk)

The total deadlock is in fact what I expected of this mediation attempt. Roughly, I see five people as main players in the conflict. Of them, 3 are trying to resolve the conflict, one is slightly moving to a constructive attitude and one plain says no...

I don't really like the idea of an RFC, but it might be a way to break the deadlock. So I am willing to accept when we have a clear question and when is clear what parts will be covered by the RFC. "Consumer safety" is clearly covered by the question. But "taste" and "nutritional value" are less clear. I would suggest to separate "taste" and keep it out of the RFC (and out of the chapter "Health and safety"). About "nutritional value" is would suggest to do this in a separate RFC, when the community wants to include this. The Banner _talk 23:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Russian Patriarchy website does not say anything about Stalin

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

discussed it on the talk page, asked in WP:ANI, but it was the wrong place.

How do you think we can help?

First, Russian speakers could exactly decide if the source says anything about Stalin or an icon having repelled the Nazi army. Second, the matter should be decided here in order to avoid an edit war.

Talk:Theotokos of Vladimir discussion

Comment from uninvolved editor: Here is the text that is in dispute:

In December 1941, as the Germans approached Moscow, Joseph Stalin allegedly ordered a service in the Assumption Cathedral to protect the city from the enmy and that the icon be placed in an airplane and flown around the besieged capital. Several days later, the German army started to retreat.

References are:

• Russia 5 by Simon Richmon, p 160
• patriarchia.ru

--Noleander (talk) 02:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I had no problems with the first source, but the second fails to verify either element of the urban legend, so it should not be used as a reference in order to support the urban legend. It says something about a commemoration of WW2 victims and heroes and victory, but not enough to support the urban legend which is purported to support.

Otherwise, at User:Staszek Lem has completely removed the urban legend. I don't know if he was aware of this dispute resolution attempt. The text should be indeed of dubious encyclopedic quality in order to be challenged and removed by two inclusionists. I mean there is a difference between faithful and stupid, the urban legend depicts the Russians as being stupid (or credulous) rather than faithful. But that's just my opinion. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Another third party editor and volunteer here. The first source is a Lonely Planet book, a travel guide, and is not a reliable source for historical events. See the discussions here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 102#Lonely Planet. Travel guides are only reliable for topics that pertain to travel, like restaurants or hotels. Articles about historical events should use academic sources, like journals or textbooks.--xanchester (t) 01:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with this verdict. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:22, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opening comments by Peacemaker67

Essentially I agree with Dianna, and would be amused by Tulipsword's serious case of WP:HEAR if the subject wasn't so serious. The lead of the current The Holocaust article defines the Holocaust as "was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory" and cites 10 separate sources supporting that definition, including from books written by:

• Professor Timothy D. Snyder, the American Professor of History at Yale University, who specializes in the history of Central and Eastern Europe, as well as the Holocaust
• Professor Yehuda Bauer, Professor of Holocaust Studies at the Avraham Harman Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem
• Professor David Cesarani, Professor of History at Royal Holloway College, University of London
• Sir Martin Gilbert, a leading historian who wrote a definitive book on the Holocaust
• Dr Raul Hilberg, the author of the influential "The Destruction of the European Jews"
• Professor Peter Longerich, director of the Research Centre for the Holocaust and Twentieth-Century History at Royal Holloway, University of London

among others

The article lead also indicates that some scholars include the mass murder of Romani people and people with disabilities in their definition of "The Holocaust" and cites two sources for those additions, an article by Professor Henry Friedlander, Professor in the Department of Judaic Studies at Brooklyn College of the City University of New York, and also Wytwycky, Bohdan (1980). The Other Holocaust: Many Circles of Hell. The Novak Report.

No reliably published scholarly sources have been produced that widen "The Holocaust" any further (with the deepest of respect for the opinion of Simon Wiesenthal). It was Serbs that caught my eye on the template (because I have a particular interest in the Balkans), but the template should be taking its lead from the article, and the article definition (even the expanded one) does not include Serbs (and some other groups). I am proposing removing all groups that do not fall within the definition currently used in the article, accepting that Romani people and people with disabilities could arguably be included on the basis mainly of Friedlander's work (although it is probably debatable given the weight we would naturally give all those eminent Holocaust scholars that use a narrower definition). That's all I have for now. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Antidiskriminator

This dispute is a related to Peacemaker67's (somewhat supported by Diannaa) struggle to change the context of the article about Holocaust (as explained on the talk pages of The Holocaust article and template) to be focused to Jews and Jewish victims.

The Holocaust is of such great significance that almost all of its sections are covered by separate articles. Some of the sections and articles are appropriately listed within the sidebar template with collapsible list (which corresponds with template documentation).

I always insist that victims must not be divided into Jews and non-Jews. I brought over 1,100 Nazis before courts in different countries, Nazis who killed Jews and Gentiles and Gypsies and Serbs. ... we shouldn't always talk about 6 million Jews who died in Holokaust. I say let's talk about 11 million civilians, among them 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust."

I don't believe that editors who want to delete non-Jewish victims (and started with deletion of Serb victims) struggling for the their context of The Holocaust will gain consensus for their position. Still, I don't share Diannaa's optimism about resolving this issue and the quality improvement because the real issue here and the real cause of this dispute is out of the scope of this noticeboard. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:57, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Diannaa

Recently I became aware that my local library has a couple of high quality new books on this topic, so I decided that I would undertake an overhaul of the article once I am done my current project. Initial copy edits were started on November 13. I noted my intention on the article's talk page on December 3 and received a positive response from other interested editors. Preliminary discussions are underway on the article talk page as to structural changes, which will likely be the first step in improving the article, hopefully all the way up to a GA standard. A lot of things may change about the article, including the definition of the Holocaust that is used therein, depending on where the sources lead us. So to add things to the template in an effort to match the article at this point in time does not make sense, in my opinion. On December 13 I suggested that the article was not in very good shape, being due for a total overhaul, and told him about my long-range plan. Later that day I decided to discontinue participating in the discussion on the template talk page as it seemed to be going around in circles and I felt my concerns were not being heard. Later I noticed this post on user talk:Antidiskriminator, so I posted there my actual reason for not participating any further in the discussion.

Template talk:The Holocaust (Inclusion of Serbs in template) discussion

I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. The editor who filed this request, Tulipsword, is a newcomer who edited for several days, but has not edited Wikipedia since filing this request. Antidiskriminator, the other editor with whom Tulipsword says that he/she was most aligned says, above, that he does not believe this filing is appropriate or needed. Discussion appears to be proceeding at Talk:The Holocaust. In that light, I or another volunteer will close this request unless someone makes a strong case for leaving it open within the next 24 hours after the date on this post. It can be refiled later, if needed. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I think you should just close it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opening comments by 91.52.11.82

Opening comments by BlueMoonlet

I am a longtime WP editor and a professional scientist, and I have been watching this page since I received an email from ResearchGate that purported to be from a respected colleague. That is, of course, original research on my part, but for what my word may or may not be worth, the criticism is in fact true, though hard to properly cite. The reason it's hard to cite is, paradoxically, that the company is only marginally notable and thus has attracted practically no critical coverage from reliable sources. The paltry coverage it has received has basically been parroting the company's own press releases. There is a problem here with the WP:RS policy, but I certainly don't know how to fix it.

A number of people have shown up who are more upset about these emails than I am, and who know less about WP than I do, and have added material about the topic. I have mostly refrained from contesting the removal of this material, as I have found it hard to rebut the criticism that it is ill-sourced, but I have to admit that I have been sympathetic. Most recently, however, someone found this source and posted it. I did contest the removal of this source, because I think it fits the WP:RS policy. The fit may be marginal, but this whole case is marginal.

It is inaccurate for User:JNorman704 to call this source "a blog post by someone named 'Erich.'" The author identifies himself as Erich Schubert, a researcher in mathematics and computer science. He even gives his CV, which is modest IMO but at least arguably qualifies him as "an established expert on the topic of the article." I now note that he has added a disclaimer to the original blog post that modestly declines the status of RS for WP purposes, but (as I've just said) I'm not sure I agree with him.

The bottom line is that this is a marginally notable article subject that engages in practices that are questionable to say the least, but about which little has been written. To quote only the mainstream sources, which have not noticed the subject enough to be critical of it, is to unfairly bias the article towards the subject. It's a tricky issue, and I don't know the best solution. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 02:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by 138.246.2.177

Opening comments by Martin.uecker

ResearchGate discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opening comments by Doc James

Medical hypothesis has been deemed to not be a reliable source when it comes to discussing main stream current medical positions. Unless these theory is discussed in secondary sources independent of it creator probably not ready for prime time. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Anthonyhcole

The question is whether to mention in Pain the relatively new theory of pain thoroughly summarised by Medicinechief on his talk page. The theory was enunciated by Omoigui in:
this book

• Omoigui S (2002). The biochemical origin of pain: How a new law and new drugs have led to a medical breakthrough in the treatment of persistent pain. State of the Art Technologies Incorporated. ISBN 0-9650-7676-8.
  

and these two journal articles

• Omoigui S (2007). "The biochemical origin of pain: proposing a new law of pain: the origin of all pain is inflammation and the inflammatory response. Part 1 of 3--a unifying law of pain." Medical Hypotheses 69 (1): 70–82. doi:10.1016/j.mehy.2006.11.028. PMID 17240081. full text
• Omoigui S (2007). "The biochemical origin of pain: the origin of all pain is inflammation and the inflammatory response. Part 2 of 3 - inflammatory profile of pain syndromes." Medical Hypotheses 69 (6): 1169–78. doi:10.1016/j.mehy.2007.06.033. PMID 17728071. full text

Citations
Google Scholar finds no peer-reviewed citations of the 2002 book other than by the book's author, Omoigui.

Among citations of the two 2007 journal articles, Google Scholar finds these 18 articles which appear to have been published in peer-reviewed journals:

and one or both of Omoigui's 2007 articles are cited in each of these 3 books:

Thoughts
I have included everything said about the theory beneath each source that I could access, except the last book, a doctoral thesis, which is premised in part on the theory and cites it on six or seven occasions. The sources I have been able to access either use Omoigui's theory as a premise in their argument or simply cite findings mentioned in his papers – none of them is an independent review of current pain theory, or a review dedicated to Omoigui's theory.

Omoigui's theory was first proposed in a book published by State-of-the-art Technologies, Incorporated, which appears to only publish books by Sota Omoigui. It was subsequently proposed in two articles published in the journal Medical Hypotheses, which does not peer-review. The theory has not been reviewed in detail by an independent authority in a peer reviewed journal or textbook. I can't support mentioning the theory in Pain until it has had considerably more authoritative review. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Medicinechief#Text_in_question discussion

Hi there, I volunteer here at DRN. That doesn't mean what I say is more important and carries more weight than others. I'll try mediate this dispute and bring around an amicable resolution. Once the other two parties have posted their opening statements we'll press onwards Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 13:42, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The theory has not been reviewed in detail by an independent authority in a peer reviewed journal or textbook as pointed out by Anthonyhcole seems to be the kicker here. From a quick peruse it seems that all the sources are primary sources and, perhaps, not up to scratch as a WP:MEDRS. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 11:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I, like Cabe6403, am a regular volunteer here at DRN and I fully concur that this material does not at this time meet the standards set by Wikipedia policy for inclusion. It may meet those standards some day, but it does not at this point in time. I recommend that this be closed as resolved against inclusion. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Agree that this should be closed resolved against inclusion. I am in agreement with Doc James, Anthonyhcole, Cabe4603, and TransporterMan that the sources brought for the material do not pass WP:MEDRS. Zad68 16:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opening comments by Yparjis

Personally, I have been maintaining the entirety of the article. Personal contribution to the entirety of this page can be verified by looking throughout the history of this article, but let me summarize it here to facilitate everyone:

1. cleaned sources in all sections of the article 2. corrected grammar and other language issues 3. removed sections that promote the subject 4. detailed SE history 5. introduced the criticism section

In the past 3 years this article has been attacked a number of times by users , allegedly or admittedly affiliated with SE either by being directly or indirectly affiliated with SE operations. This has been either by:

1. Adding content that promotes SE with the purpose of transforming this WP article into an advertisement post for SE. 2. Removing the criticism section all together without sufficiently justifying in the Talk page. 3. Alter the criticism section in order to impair it.

This is my impression, but I will not try to make a hard case for this.

Specifically, to the case:

1. Claim that : The article in its entirety is based on non WP:V or non WP:RS

(a) "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities," , clearly source [15] is as such and [16] may be considered.

(b) source [20] is WP:RS and WP:V since it points to cnet.com

(c) source [15] is WP:V and obviously WP:RS since it is a verification of the claim in criticism section from the creator of the website.

sources [21] and [22] may well be removed along with the corresponding claims.

2. Undue weight, may have been true, but the section has been shortened to an extent that now is proportional its weight. Further modifications can follow, given that time permits. It currently takes up 1/4 of the article but may be shortened to 1/5, especially if other sections grow.

3. "A little Googling suggested..." , This is truly an undue claim, google searching cannot stand in a logical argument since it employs stochastic algorithms and personalised searching to present results. This only demonstrates the user's clouded judgement. Finally, I cannot adhere nor deny the validity of the claim as is, since that would increase its information content, and may disorientate from the content of the article itself.

4. Claim: "Sources are outdated". Even if outdated, sources may document criticism past and present. However, most of the sources are currently up to date.

Conclusion : Criticism section is a vital documentation wrt SE as is its history. It is based on WP:V [15,16,20] sources and WP:RS [15,16] sources and some sources that may not be WP:V. In the past there have been links to meta.stackoverflow.com that further documented the claims in the section, but have been removed upon demand of the involved users as non WP:V and WP:UNDUE ( I do not disagree with WP:UNDUE). The latter have been included to present criticism of SE based on user opinions, This may be justified due to the nature of the section itself.

Proposion: 1. Leave the criticism section , 2. engage in a constructive discussion on a source by source basis in the talk page. 3. I would appreciate if the involved users would aid in any other part of the article just to demonstrate that they are not WP:NPOV . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yparjis (talk • contribs) 13:32, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Manishearth

As mentioned, I indeed have a COI here. In retrospect, it was indeed a bad idea to just blank the page (I _did_ plan to rewrite it with better sources, but I couldn't get the time), with said COI being in existence, but I thought that it would be OK (at the time) if I cited the relevant policies. Of course, I was wrong -- I have been semi-retired for a while now (though I never got to updating my userpage), and I'd forgotten the nuances of the policies.

My concerns about the section (at the state it was in when I first saw it) are:

• Its citations are not reliable. They mainly consist of blog posts and comments therein.
• It gives undue weight to the topic of criticism
• A little Googling suggested that the other user involved, Yparjis, may be a "disgruntled user" (See the links here), which may create problems with NPOV. Part of the dispute was regarding the need for these links on the page. I'm not insisting that Yparjis is in fact a disgruntled user, but I do feel that these links mean something and ought to be kept there.

In the end, I find myself in agreement with Dreamyshade's comment-- having a section known as "features" with the positives and negatives of each would be a nice idea (and it's OK if some features have only negatives). I would like to help make such a section as well -- except that I'm rather bad at finding good sources (If you check my WP contributions they're more cleanup-oriented). Plus I'm extremely busy for a few weeks.

ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 17:18, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Sirtaptap

Honestly I don't see a huge debate here; I see numerous users trying to remove a section with zero verifiability and major undue weight, and a single user repeatedly reversing multiple editor's edits. The section's just a bunch of blog posts and rants from assorted, non-noteworthy sites. It should have been blanked long ago and would have been if a single user weren't insisting on an edit war. But it's not an edit war I care to partake in, nor do I feel these debates will help much; I'm convinced the original editor will continuously watch the page and edit the criticism section back in (as they have done for months) so I'm more or less abandoning this discussion and dispute. The section shouldn't be there as-is but I have no time to edit war to correct it.--Sirtaptap (talk) 19:59, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Stack Exchange_Network discussion

Hello, I volunteer here at DRN and I'm opening this up for discussion. Just because I volunteer doesn't mean what I say has any extra weight over any other editors but I'm coming into the dispute as an uninvolved third party and will do my best to broker a resolution. Cheers Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 10:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can understand the dispute revolves around the inclusion of the criticism section of the article. When reading the discussion on the talk page this statement jumped out at me: "The current Criticism section takes up half of the page on the network, that is clearly a lot of undue weight". I would suggest that, in that case, instead of removing criticism, expand the rest of the article.

What I would suggest though, as a fair few sources are a from 2008-2009 about a website that has, no doubt, evolved since then would be to rewrite the section including only the facts that are still relevant. I doubt that some of the points people raised in 2008 still exists. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 10:48, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I do not completely disagree with this view. Of course criticism may be as well in the past tense, documenting what has come to pass. In my view it would be better to include these, but rephrase the related content such that it is clear that this was in the past. If a source is not longer available then we can remove the content. Regarding WP:UNDUE , the entirety of the article has 20 sources , and 6 of those sources are on criticism, with 4 of those sources being WP:V . I would not say that the article is WP:UNDUE if the Criticism section would be larger than 1/3 of the article, which is the case currently. Nonetheless, if someone wants to improve the section, I would not disagree, but complete removal of the section is in my opinion not the proper action.

Drive-by comment from another dispute resolution volunteer:

Right now the criticism section does not meet Wikipedia's standards, and I am concerned about the fact that this problem was not corrected by the first editor who read it. To be specific, he section says:

"The founder Joel Spolsky recently invited on his blog to make the site a 'welcoming, friendly place'[15], while continuing parenting users with a 'how to be civil' indication [16]."

Really? It's OK to make the parenting users claim in Wikipedia's voice as if it was an established fact? It's OK to present a blog post as if it were a reliable source? whether telling people how to to be civil (something we do a lot here at Wikipedia) is "parenting" is a PERSONAL OPINION. the personal opinion that telling users telling people how to to be civil is part of making the site a more welcoming, friendly place is equally valid.

Everybody involved in this page needs to read WP:V again and to kill obvious policy violations like the above on sight. Criticism needs to be properly sourced, verifiable, and written from a neutral point of view. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

NOTE: I moved the comment below from the middle of my comment. Yparjis, please don't do that. It violates WP:TALKO. Place your reply under the comment you are replying to. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:32, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

It is a blog post by the founder SE. How can it not be WP:RS , have you read WP:V or should I cite it once more. I Torvlads was out to say that "you know linux kernel sends usage data from every users that uses linux to NSA" on his blog that would be WP:V and WP:RS? right? and that would indeed be an established fact until denied by multiple other WP:RS Yparjis (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

First of all, please read WP:VECTOR. Actually click on the link and read the page. Then come back and give us a link to whatever you thought was at WP:VECTOR.

My mistake I meant WP:V , but that was obvious wasn't it? I made corrections only as needed , I hope I didn't break some wikipedia policy.Yparjis (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Second, if Linus Torvalds said that, it would not be a reliable source supporting Wikipedia stating it as if it was an established fact. We could, however, report it as "in 2012 Linus Torvalds said..." You really need to go back and read WP:V and WP:RS again, keeping in mind that at least one experienced editor has told you that you are misinterpreting those policies. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:32, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

From WP:V (formerly erroneously referred to as WP:VECTOR) "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" . Now do you think that Linus fits that category ? Maybe you should look up again what is written there before making hard statements.Yparjis (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I am well aware of WP:V and understand it quite well, having followed all the arbcom and medcom decisions clarifying it. Any claim that Linus Torvalds makes about the linux kernel or that Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky make about the Stack Exchange Network need to be attributed to them, not presented in Wikipedia's voice as if they were established facts. The relevant policy is WP:INDEPENDENT. Also see WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:EXCEPTIONAL. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:00, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Note: I've removed the section again, only to be reverted by User:Yparjis. Bjelleklang - talk 13:04, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

You shoud not keep removing the section until all opinions have been heard. Didn't you also claim that if I undid you would ask for admin intervention, in case it was reverted. Haven't you seen the status of this WP:DRN that you have initiated? Isn't it only logical to ask for the resolution of this dispute before taking action?

I have read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:VECTOR ( meant WP:V ), could you please read from WP:VECTOR (obviously WP:V) " questionable sources on themselves " and tell under which argument sources [15,16] or even [20] are neither WP:VECTOR neither WP:RS. Yparjis (talk) 17:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)Yparjis (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

If you have read WP:V, you have surely seen section 1? The burden is on the person who adds or restore material, and note 2 in the same article says that

Once sources that an editor believes in good faith to be sufficient have been provided, any editor who then removes the material has an obligation to articulate specific problems that would justify its exclusion from Wikipedia. All editors are then expected to help achieve consensus, and any potential problems with the text or sourcing should be fixed before the material is added back.

After I removed the content I explained why, as have several other users, including another administrator after I asked him to take a look at the section in order to get an additional outside opinion. The burden is on you as the reverting user to explain why the sources are reliable, especially as there has been around 9 other users who have either removed the section, or commented upon it here or on the talkpage. As I've stated before I'm not opposed to having a criticism section, but it needs to be based on reliable sources. As for your analysis of the references above, I disagree. 15 is okay as a source as Spolsky is one of the founders; but 16 is user generated (although Spolsky is one of the posters) and there is no indication that he is parenting users. For me this is no different than the countless number of debates I imagine Jimbo has participated in on WP:CIVIL. Sources 17, 18, 19 and 22 is frankly too old to be an indication of general criticism, as they were all published within two months of the site's launch. User:Snowolf also commented on this on the talkpage. The CNET article is probably the best of the references, but it doesn't say anything about criticism, only that they're operating with a new business model.

As for your proposal, there is another alternative which I have already suggested for you here; move the section into a sandbox and improve it there. If you can find good sources to build the criticism section on I have no problems putting it back in, but until then it needs to be removed. Bjelleklang - talk 17:52, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Yparjis, if, as you claim, you have read WP:VECTOR, please explain what "Vector is a MediaWiki skin and extension that was developed in 2009 with the goal of increasing accessibility. It is became the default skin for MediaWiki in 2010" has to do with what we are discussing. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:32, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Guy Macon , I appreciate your belittlement but it is only your personality that you diminish.Yparjis (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I was asked by Bjelleklang to look into this matter as an uninvolved administrator and came off with the very strong impression that the criticism section is a mixture of irrelevant info, original research and improperly sourced assertions. What user X or Y says on their blog is hardly worth mentioning and is not a proper source. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 07:33, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I have filed a WP:AN/EW report on the matter as the user seems bent on restoring the not properly sourced section no matter what, breaking 3RR in the process. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 07:25, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

REMOVED THIS SECTION HERE as is duplicate of the section below.

you have not "articulated" yet specific problems with the sources. i am yet to cound those 9 other users that have not been WP:NPOV. Your sandbox has been an excuse to remove the section since you left it pnly for a week. The article looks good as is , I do not see the reason for putting it in a sandbox. "too odd" is not articulation. My proposition is to leave the section and improve on sources. I am currently doing this. Maybe you should help in that direction since you recognize the validity of at least a few sources, and if your WP:NPOV, which seems to be doubtful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yparjis (talk • contribs) 07:37, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

you have not "articulated" yet specific problems with the sources. That sir, is a pure and simple lie. There are no sources supporting your OR in the criticism section as I have explained in detail. Also please note that WP:NPOV doesn't redirect to WP:GEORGOPOV. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 08:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Snowolf, please do not troll be referring to WP:GEORGOPOV . I would appreciate if you keep your temper. If you think that you have done show then this is what this page is for. You can please do it below. Yparjis (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Both myself and Snowolf have commented on the sources, as have others and everyone agrees that they aren't good enough to support the section. The main criticism is based on blogs, which isn't really a reliable source as they may only represent the thought and opinions of individual users. I have also noticed that you tend to accuse others of not having a neutral point of view; including myself. Just to set the matter straight; I was approached by another user (who has a COI and is aware of it) on IRC who first explained his concerns, and then asked for a third and neutral opinion. This is how I got into this, and this is also how Snowolf got involved. There is nothing unusual about it, editors ask for second/third opinions all the time. We're not pushing for a specific point-of-view, we're trying to get content based on bad references removed. Unlike yourself, who is actively protecting said content by reverting and adding additional bad references. Finding good references about Stack Exchange isn't that difficult, even the BBC mentions them related to a story. What is difficult though, is finding reliable sources discussing criticism of the site. The absence of criticism in reliable sources doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it does mean that we can't verify it, and thus we can't write about it the way you've done. And for what it's worth, I've begun a small rewrite of the remainder of the article based on a recent version using reliable sources only; if time permits I will add my edits to the article sometime today or tomorrow. Bjelleklang - talk 08:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Dreamyshade beat me to it, but I'll try to add a few things tonight or tomorrow. Bjelleklang - talk 18:53, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I didn't see your comment here before I began my revision; sorry for duplicating your effort! My goal with this revision was to establish a consistent minimum requirement of non-self-published sources with professional writers and some level of editorial oversight. The cited tech blogs aren't great sources since they tend to be enthusiastic, but at least they fit that criteria. Most of the criticism sources are self-published blogs or primary sources so they do not qualify; the "Simple Talk" post does seem to fit the criteria, but the post is discussing StackOverflow in 2008, before Stack Exchange 1.0 or 2.0 existed. I believe that post would be OK to cite on Stack Overflow, but it's not relevant enough for this article. Dreamyshade (talk) 03:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the recent discussion on User talk:Yparjis#Username, it seems this editor has decided to retire. Do other people have concerns with the current state of the article? (Perhaps this is resolved now?) Dreamyshade (talk) 23:57, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

All of the issues I listed in my "Drive-by comment from another dispute resolution volunteer" have been corrected, and the article looks pretty good.. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell the issues have been settled after the rewrite, I'll keep the article in my watchlist though. Bjelleklang - talk 13:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello, as you can see in the beginning I was the user who originally removed the section per the request in IRC. I'm also a volunteer here and since there is no volunteer here at the moment I'd like to pose a question. Now that the section has been updated (or merged apparently since I can't find it) and and the main editor arguing for it's replacement has retired, can we archive this discussion as a success? --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 05:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, this seems to be resolved as is, and the other major issues can be discussed on the talk page. Archiving as complete. --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 05:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opening comments by zeng8r

Wikipedia:Articles for_deletion/Most_played_rivalries_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.