Wikipedia:Featured article review/archive/February 2025

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because, during the FA process the article went through, three large areas of historical research were omitted. Thus currently it does not meet the criteria that the article needs to be:

• 1.b comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context and
• 1.c well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature

I have since addressed one of those, but had no feedback. I intend to address the other two but would like to ensure my work is reviewed as I do so.

The areas that were not addressed during the FAC process were

1. Anglo-Jewish historical research: Edward's actions are a large subject of discussion in this literature, which contends that he has particular significance for the history of antisemitism and for English identity, which incorporated an antisemitic element as a result of the expulsion. (These topics were notably missed in Prestwich.) These issues have now been addressed to a minimum level by myself but need a check for FA standards.
2. Welsh history: Edward I is of particular significance to Welsh history. Edward is typically seen by Welsh medievalists as a coloniser, someone who did immense damage to Welsh society, culture and self-confidence, which produced a lasting anger. These items need expanding in the "Legacy" section at least. The literature on Edward I from a Welsh perspective was unfortunately contended not to exist during FA review.
3. Irish history: The literature on Ireland was not consulted; Ireland is not covered in the article at all, except to mention Edward governed it and it provided him income. Themes include the early takeover by Edward and some squabbling with his father; Edward treating Ireland as a revenue source and little else; corruption and incompetence in the administrators Edward appointed and repeatedly sacked; over-taxation to meet his war demands; speculation over food exports during the Welsh and Gascon wars; problems emerging from the Edwardian weak administration including a revival of the fortunes of the Gaelic areas' leadership, leading to regular wars in the period and following centuries. Thus although an absentee landlord, current Irish historical research sees him as signficant for the difficulties of Ireland that continued in the centuries following.

Additionally, a check should be made regarding Scottish sources and perspectives.

These areas should also be looked at:

• Religious views: the article may not fully capture the nature of Edward's devotion. It covers his piety as actions, rather than as a belief system. There is commentary about his and Eleanor's piety giving them a sense that they were doing God's work, which makes sense as Crusaders, and explains better his sense of certainty while doing morally reprehensible things.
• Relations with Eleanor: particularly, the support of and the psychological impact of the loss of Eleanor and some of Edward's key advisors around 1290 is often held to have impacted the latter part of his reign. This doesn't seem to be discussed. Also, Edward encouraged Eleanor to accumulate land wealth to reduce the call on his own funds, which was an important change for future queens but impacted a lot on domestic relations with the landed classes who were being dispossessed; it limited what he could do with taxation and was a driver in his policies towards the Jews. This is now touched on this but it could do with discussion earlier.

The reasons for several of these areas being missed appear to include an over-reliance on Michael Prestwich's biography. It received significant academic criticism for missing several of these areas, and being overly concerned with war administration and finance; which I have noted on his Wikipedia page.

Key texts that need consulting include:

• For Wales, "The Age of Conquest: Wales 1063-1415" by RR Davies from 2001, and A History of Wales by John Davies.
• For Ireland, "A new history of Ireland Volume II 1169-1534", which contains a dedicated chapter on Edward's Lordship, "The years of Crisis, 1254-1315" and a further chapter on the wars that were provoked in the period "A Land of War", both by James Lydon. There is by Robin Frame, "Ireland and Britain 1170 to 1450", and other works

As mentioned, I would not like to see this article demoted and I am willing to do the work on Wales and Ireland particularly, and anything further on Anglo-Jewish matters. There is a question on structure for that section also. A point may emerge around article length and there may need to be cuts to meet FA criteria. This I would certainly need help with.

If it is better that I simply work on these areas, complete that and bring the article back to FAR afterwards I can do that. But I haven't got much feedback on the page and feel reluctant to do more work without a little guidance.

Jim Killock (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm late to this party, but I would argue that Edward I and Wales is a very complex, nuanced topic and goes beyond Edward merely provoking hatred and lasting damage etc. David Stephenson's recent studies are a must, imo, somewhat updating and revising his old mentor RR Davies. Then there is my own modest offering (cough, not that I am trying to flog books on here...) 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:1D13:60A2:4605:AAA0 (talk) 11:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Very happy to take a look at further sources; I can definitely take a look at David Stephenson's studies for anything clearly missing. If we have your name we can look at anything you have written as well. Jim Killock (talk) 14:31, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks - it is David Pilling, Edward I and Wales. Stephenson's book on Powys and his recent Medieval Wales: Centuries of Ambiguity are go-to for this subject. I have some comments on Ireland as well, still nagivating these Wiki pages. 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:A13D:765:F9A3:95A5 (talk) 15:13, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks David, I have Centuries of Ambiguity and your volume as it goes, I'll give these a read and see where I get. Jim Killock (talk) 18:15, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Moving to get perspectives on whether the article meets the FA criteria. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:33, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

Keep. I did an extensive prose and biblio formatting review of the article, and believe the article passed on both counts. I think it now is much more comprehensive than when Jimmy started out with his rewrite. Matarisvan (talk) 20:55, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

Although there's only one keep declaration in this section, I note three retain declarations in the review phase and no unstruck delists. Closing this as a keep after nearly a year of discussion and improvements. Thanks all. DrKay (talk) 07:59, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

• Closing note: This removal candidate has been kept, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. DrKay (talk) 07:59, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because there are numerous citation concerns, including an orange banner at the top of the "Contributions to mathematics and physics" section and an uncited "List of doctoral students" section. There's also a lot of great prose describing math concepts, but much of this does not describe how Noether contributed to these concepts and I don't think much of it is necessary for the reader to understand how Noether contributed to the ideas. I think this would need a math specialist to help improve the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I added a source for the entire doctoral students section. Also, far be it from me to ignite another "anti-intellectualism" GAR/FAR firestorm, but the line "I don't think much of it is necessary for the reader to understand" rubs me the wrong way. Yes, to understand Noether's accomplishments it is necessary to understand the mathematics and physics concepts she worked with. That said, I agree that the contributions section could be better sourced; we used to allow unsourced background material that we would expect any student of the subject to have some familiarity with, but those days are gone. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

To expand upon my comment about what the reader needs to understand: after reading the article when making the nomination, I found that some sections did a great job explaining the math, but struggled to connect it to Noether. For example, in the "Background on abstract algebra" section, Noether is not mentioned until paragraph 4. I would expect Noether's contributions to be more prominent and mentioned first, then the mathematical principles explained by connecting it to Noether's contributions. I think the "First epoch (1908–1919): Physics", all the second epoch, and all the third epoch sections do this well; I think the other sections need to feature Noether more prominently, which might involve removing some information, and will probably involve moving around some information. Z1720 (talk) 22:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

We get an issue with accessibility or focus whichever way you slice it: either there's maths explanations with nothing to do with Noether, or the descriptions are only accessible to those familiar with elementary algebra. If you don't understand what a group is, it's impossible to understand Noether's contributions to maths. I don't think you can reverse the order of it.

The subject matter is necessarily extremely technical. What might not be obvious to layreaders is that (e.g.) the group representations paragraph is child's play compared to the statement of Noether's problem. This is the dumbing down as far as possible without distorting the facts. I can wax lyrical about group representations but Galois theory makes my head hurt. By focusing on big picture ("it's all about symmetries", "like prime numbers") and toy examples (the discriminant, polynomial splitting fields), but also giving the full statements of what Noether studied, I think the article does quite well. I feel it's best left as is unless someone is jumping to make it a big project of theirs.

My comments at Talk:Emmy Noether#WP:URFA/2020 were to indicate that I do not think there are major citation issues—it's more a style issue, as convention has changed since 2008. I do feel this article would benefit from a mathematician giving it a full copyedit, with an algebra textbook to hand for some inline citations. — Bilorv (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Bilorv said more or less what I was going to. The ordering in the "Background on abstract algebra" passage makes sense because, well, it's background. It has to cover concepts that were introduced a half-century before Noether was even born. That's just how math works: it's a cumulative subject, and we can't always take a thin slice out of it and hope for a meaningful result.

Much of the uncited material can probably be found in any textbook on the area (e.g., the definition of a ring or a group representation is standard stuff). I did what I could with the books that I had near my desk, but I am too tired to do more and need a very very long break. XOR'easter (talk) 00:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe the "List of doctoral students" section is necessary in the first place. "All" (i.e. those with wikilinks) the notable students are in the infobox and a table list of their dissertations and defenses seem somewhat superfluous. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the section. Feel free to revert or add it back if you disagree. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I also realised there were two separate "Recognition" sections, which I merged together. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:24, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this removal. Everything in the infobox should be a summary of main-article text. The infobox should not supplant the article. See MOS:INFOBOX: When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. If you include the list of doctoral students only in the infobox, then readers looking for a non-superficial summary will not find that information. Or, to put it another way, if it is so important to the article that it needs to be summarized in the infobox, so that even low-attention-span readers skimming the infobox find it, then it is also so important to the article that it should be covered properly in the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I know the infobox shouldn't supplant the article. My reasoning was that the infobox could have the names of all her notable doctoral students while the article went into more detail (which it does, in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section; I recognise it's in need of some more sentences about her doctoral students specifically). I still don't believe a list of their dissertations and defense dates is of benefit to the average reader, but I'll leave it. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not wedded to the specific table format. A more prose-like format such as a bulleted list might be better. The titles of the dissertations are less important than their overall topics and what happened afterward to each student. And the placement of the list of students in the article would make more sense in the section you mention than as an appendix at the end. But if one is looking for a complete list of her students (or, what the infobox lists, her bluelinked students) one won't find anything resembling that in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section in its current state. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. After the citation issues are resolved, perhaps the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section can be expanded to include more information about her doctoral students, but I don't think it should make or break the article's Featured status. Sgubaldo (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with David Eppstein that the doctoral students should be mentioned in the body. An exhaustive list makes sense to me, with dissertation topic (e.g. p-adic numbers) and anything the student was later known for. It would also make sense to incorporate them into the chronological account of her life, but the issue might be that she had so many notable students that it could overwhelm the rest of the section's focus. — Bilorv (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with ensuring they are mentioned in the body. My reasoning was that dissertation titles and defense dates are not that important. Sgubaldo (talk) 13:53, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the dates are worth keeping. The titles, if we have topics instead, can go. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

For now, I've added an initial mention of the two Erlangen students in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section. They don't seem too notable though and could probably be moved up to the "Teaching period" one instead. Unfortunately, I don't think I'd be of much help with the citation issues. Sgubaldo (talk) 01:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I won't have the time to properly sit down and crack on with this until towards the end of March. After that, I'm happy to continue working on the doctoral students part. As I said above, the citation issues in the "Contributions to mathematics and physics" section may require someone with more expertise than me in the area. Besides, beyond those two issues, I think the article is worthy of FA status, and I made some structural changes that made the article (in my view) neater. Sgubaldo (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Improvements have definately been made (thanks everyone!) but I still have citation concerns, as there are some paragraphs which do not have any inline citations. Would it be helpful if I tagged the areas that I felt needed citations for others to address? Z1720 (talk) 16:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

That would be helpful. Sgubaldo (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Note a seems to use inline references, which should be converted to inline citations (footnotes). Z1720 (talk) 17:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Working my way through as many of those as I can. Will update when I stall out. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh, now we're forbidden even footnotes from having parenthetical citations within them? So we need a separate footnote inside the footnote to be the reference? No. Just no. This blind fanaticism serves no encyclopedic purpose. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I misindented my comment. I've been working through the cn tags. Haven't looked into the note. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

My reply was aimed more at Z1720 than you. Going through cn tags and finding citations for them is a very useful thing to be doing. Putting nested footnotes into footnotes because of an aversion to mixing footnote text with footnote citations, less useful. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Firefangledfeathers? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

The inline reference issue in Note a has been fixed. Two cn tags remain, and the section on her second epoch might need some citations too. The rest of the article seems good. Beyond that, I had the idea of making her doctoral students part of the prose rather than an explicit table at the bottom of the article, but that shouldn't make or break FA-status. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Sgubaldo. Haven't given up on the last few cns. Just been busy. I'll either fix them soon or throw in the towel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I found something in Page 99 of Emmy Noether: The Mother of Modern Algebra by Margaret B. W. Tent for the phrase 'Her family paid for her room and board and supported her academic work' as mentioned on the talk page, but i'm a little skeptical of using it as a source since it's mostly aimed at teenagers and the author takes some literary creativity and makes up conversations between historical figures. No luck on the other cn tag yet. Sgubaldo (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I removed the "Her family paid" line. XOR'easter (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't been paying attention to the bigger picture, but I resolved what I think was the last remaining cleanup tag a couple days ago. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  I've prosified the doctoral students and added some references in certain places. If a reviewer could go through and check again what else they feel needs a citation, that would help. Other than that, I think this should be done. Sgubaldo (talk) 13:28, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC My concerns about this article are still present: there is off-topic information that does not relate to Noether's life and lots of uncited information. Z1720 (talk) 16:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  If you think that is true then why have you done nothing to make your concerns more specific, for instance by responding last May when the comments immediately above this talked about resolving all remaining cleanup tags? We cannot clean up what we cannot see, and we cannot read your mind if you will not tell it to us. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  Frankly, this baffles me. Nothing in the article as it stands is "off-topic" to my eye. Rather, it's all either straight biography or attempts to explain the mathematical topics on which Noether worked. In other words, cutting anything would risk having an article that fails to work as a self-contained unit. XOR'easter (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

• In my opinion, a lot of the information in "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" can be summarized better: it is a lot of detail that would probably be better explained in the articles of those concepts. "Algebraic invariant theory", "Galois theory", also have a lot of text explaining the mathematical concept when this could be better explained in the concept's article. This article is over 9,000 words, which WP:TOOBIG recommends be split and reduced: I think there are opportunities in this article to move information to other places. This article doesn't need to be a self-contained unit, because it is part of a wider Wikipedia project and users can go to other articles to get more detailed information. Z1720 (talk) 22:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  So, to put it bluntly, you want to gut the intellectual contributions from a biography of someone known for her intellectual contributions, in favor of a greater emphasis on routine biographical information? Perhaps you can explain how this fits with your understanding of WP:FACR #1b, in which we are asked to ensure that the article "neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context"? The sections you object to are exactly placing the subject in context. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  An article about Emmy Noether needs to explain why a whole host of major concepts are called Noether's or Noetherian. That's far more important than the rules of thumb in WP:TOOBIG, which are made up anyway. XOR'easter (talk) 00:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the article does not need as much information as it currently has on explaining the mathematical concepts. It would be better to summarise the theories in fewer words and give more detail of their explanation in the theory's article. The long explanations of these theories are against WP:FA? #4, and I do not see how these very long explanations of concepts are major facts of Noether's work. Instead, they are going into too much detail of the background before Noether's contributions or giving too much detail in their explanation. I look forward to new editors reviewing the article and giving their thoughts so that a consensus can form. Z1720 (talk) 01:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  Even this biography of Noether aimed at children aged 6-8 claims to include "explanations of complex mathematical concepts". Are you suggesting that Wikipedia should fall below even the mathematical sophistication of a children's book? Because that's what I am getting from your comments here. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  The explanations currently in the article are already very short compared to what an article devoted to a Noetherian math topic would be. For example, our page on Noether's theorem is, by itself, over half the length of the entire Emmy Noether page, and much longer than the corresponding subsection here, Emmy Noether#Physics, which is all of three paragraphs. We're not teaching a course in ring theory or advanced classical mechanics here; we're doing pretty much the bare minimum to explain what Noether herself did and why it matters.

  I'd be amenable to judicious trimming, but that would require a sentence-by-sentence reading to decide what phrases might be diversions or superfluous details, not a vaguewave at the FA criteria. XOR'easter (talk) 18:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Moving to get more input regarding this article's status WRT the FA criteria. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delist My thoughts in the FARC remain unchanged, and the issues I brought up haven't been resolved yet. If there are any changes, please ping me and I can take another look. Z1720 (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Striking this, progress is continuing. Z1720 (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• • Keep. (Personal attack removed) The article is well written, well sourced, and significantly improved since the FA began. It covers Noether's life and work in appropriate detail.

  —David Eppstein (talk) 01:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein. This does not mean I must support the argument of delisting a status. As a not-so-thoroughly-expert-at-FA-reviewer and not a fan of biographical articles, I found they remain unsourced in the following:

• These courses often preceded major publications on the same subjects.[citation needed]
• Some other facts remained unsourced in the section "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)": Lasker–Noether theorem and her other works in further explanation.
• "An algebra consists of a choice..."
• First epoch and second epoch

Overall, the article looks good, and its status can be preserved. But this question for me: do all of these need citations for, keeping in mind, supporting the facts? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not these need citations (I haven't taken the time to formulate an opinion) that is already more helpful than Z1720's claim of "lots of uncited information" but refusal to respond to requests like "If a reviewer could go through and check again what else they feel needs a citation" from last May. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure how can I comprehend your words here: it is better to give a list of which parts that is unsourced, unlike the user who says to fix up everything without giving more details of the problem? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 04:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That was what I meant, yes. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein So, I think I shall leave this to you. Hope you don't mind. I wish I can help but biographical articles are not my thing. I'll see if I can find some spots. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 11:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein and Dedhert.Jr: I have added cn tags where I think citations are needed. There are some sentences where the citation is in the middle, instead of at the end of the sentence: I did not check to see if these citations verify the information after the citation. Z1720 (talk) 12:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720 If you found things that is not in the criteria, please make a list of bullets. Users may understand and start to fix up, just like how normally users reviews GAN. You don't mind, eh? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 12:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• There are uncited statements, which I have noted with citation needed tags.
• There is a lot of prose that describes the background information of mathematical concepts which is not directly related to Noether. While some background information is necessary, I think the "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" goes into too much detail on mathematical concepts that are better explained on the concept's own article page.
• The "First epoch (1908–1919)", "Second epoch (1920–1926)" and "Third epoch (1927–1935)" sections spend a lot of time explaining the mathematical concepts, but do not explain Noether's contribution or how she discovered them. These sections need to more closely link Noether to the work.
• Per WP:ONEDOWN, many of the math concepts explained in this article are too technical for the average, interested reader to understand. This article is a biography of this person and a reader should know how her discoveries affected mathematics. The large amount of mathematical information and high-concept language makes this difficult, and I think this information would be better on the mathematic concepts pages, rather than here.
• The following sources are listed in "Sources" but are not used in the article: Blue, Meredith (2001), Huff, Kendra (2011), Kimberling, Clark (March 1982), Schmadel, Lutz D. (2003), Lemmermeyer, Franz; Roquette, Peter, eds. (2006), Noether, Emmy; Brewer, James W; Smith, Martha K (1981), Schmadel, Lutz D. (2003).

Hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep conditional on the explicit {{citation needed}} tags being resolved. I do not see the case for shuffling actual mathematical content in a mathematician's biography off to other articles. Nor do I see a real conflict with the WP:ONEDOWN rule of thumb. The most technical parts of the article are about mathematics one sees in graduate school, and they're pitched to an upper-level undergraduate audience. XOR'easter (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Speaking of the mathematical fields alongside its technical, apparently algebra is somewhat intended to be technical in this case, no matter how one would like to try to gloss it into the least technical as possible. I think other fields such as mathematical analysis or calculus, or topology, are similar cases. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

• On hold, awaiting content's improvements before picking either delist or keep. I prefer not to delist the status because some users would like to keep it, nor to keep it because the content is still debatable and especially in shambles quality of unsourced facts. Some responses from me to Z1720:
  • Replying "There is a lot of prose that describes the background information of mathematical concepts which is not directly related to Noether": I cannot find anything that exactly means here. If I look at it again, it is actually the opposite. Can you tell us more specifically?
  • Replying "Three epochs": Ditto, but waiting for the sources.
  • Replying WP:ONEDOWN: Already explained in XOR'easter's reasons to keep.
• Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  I do not understand the "more closely link Noether to the work" comment at all. The "epochs" sections are full of her contributions. In 1918, Noether published ... Noether provided the resolution of this paradox ... Noether's theorem has become a fundamental tool ... In this epoch, Noether became famous for ... In 1923–1924, Noether applied her ideal theory to ... And so forth. XOR'easter (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  Then I guess this leaves to the sourcing problems, after which I might be vote for the status. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 04:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources either added or removed/moved to Further Reading where not needed. Sgubaldo (talk) 01:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Re: WP:ONELEVELDOWN: if this was a math article, I would be more receptive to the argument that information is geared towards graduate students. However, this is a biography article, and as such I think all of the prose should be more accessible to a wider audience. I think the goal for the language in this article should be to be readable to an interested high school student with an exceptional understanding of basic algebra concepts: after reading the article, the high school student should be able to explain in a basic way what her contributions to mathematics are/were.
• Re: Background information and too much detail: These are the places with the math concepts that I am concerned about:

• in "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" is two paragraphs of background information before Noether is mentioned.
• In "Algebraic invariant theory" Noether is mentioned in the first paragraph, then there is four paragraphs of information without mentioning Noether.
• In "Galois theory" Noether is first mentioned in the fourth paragraph.

I think these sections should link Noether to her discoveries sooner and more explicitly. If this prose is background information, I would like that information intertwined with Noether's discoveries more effectively or have information summarised with one paragraph per section of background information being the goal.

There's a couple reasons for this:

• The article is over 9,000 words, which WP:TOOBIG recommends considering spinning out the information. I think the background information is the best place to consider this.
• I think too much background information is off-topic for this specific article and the information better served in the appropriate mathematics article.
• Summarising/moving background information might make the article more accessible to people with less subject matter knowledge, as they will not feel like they have to have a solid foundation of high-level mathematics to have a basic understanding of her contributions. If I wanted high-school students to report on her contributions, they would struggle to simply describe why she is important.

Sorry for the long response and the wall of text (ironic considering I want to trim information). I hope it is helpful and happy to summarise below if editors want. I think those were the only two concerns where my comments were requested. If I missed something, please ping me. I struck out my "delist" designation because there is progress being made on the article. Z1720 (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• User:Nikkimaria is refusing to let me include content in this review responding to other reviewers' comments in this review, and has repeatedly redacted my own comments into an accusation of making personal attacks directed against me. Because of this non-neutral behavior, I would like to request that any future coordination of this FAR be performed by someone other than Nikkimaria. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• @FAR coordinators: to ping the other FAR coordinators. Z1720 (talk) 18:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• I am asking you to keep your commentary focused on the article, rather than on other reviewers. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Despite your repeated allegations, the comments you removed were focused explaining why I think certain other comments in this review should be discounted as unreasonable, rather than focused on the person who made those comments. Is that not allowed? Are we required to separately contribute to this FAR, ignoring all other contributors? What kind of process it that? —David Eppstein (talk) 19:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• You are welcome to respond to comments made by others, as long as you do so without personalizing. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding this: if this was a math article, I would be more receptive to the argument that information is geared towards graduate students. However, this is a biography article, and as such I think all of the prose should be more accessible to a wider audience. It's a biography of a mathematician, and on top of that, a mathematician whose pioneering contributions were at a rather abstract level. I don't see how the article being a biography can override the fact that it is an article about mathematics. This seems like a matter of personal taste, where mine differs from yours, rather than a factor that should play into FA status one way or the other. Likewise: ...or have information summarised with one paragraph per section of background information being the goal. This strikes me as a rather arbitrary line (and I doubt that it could be feasible without reducing the mathematics to empty platitudes).

Summarising/moving background information might make the article more accessible to people with less subject matter knowledge I suspect that the opposite is true. The more times a reader has to click on unfamiliar words and open new browser tabs, the more likely they are to give up. Nor is it the case that pointing the reader to a big page about a whole area of mathematics — Galois theory, let's say — is the right way to inform them about the parts of the subject most relevant for understanding the contributions of Emmy Noether. XOR'easter (talk) 19:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if we could compare two other FAs Leonhard Euler and Georg Cantor, the topic as in geometry, analysis, graph theory, number theory, and more, seem less technical. Unlike Emmy Noether which focus on abstract algebra topics, the description is difficult to understand naturally because of how abstract the topic is. I think that is also the reason why its section Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics) has so much background of basic explanations about abstract algebra topics???

Since this article also focuses on mathematics other than biography, is it possible to call FAR coordinators who are in favor of mathematics? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 00:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dedhert.Jr: I'm not sure what "FAR coordinators who are in favor of mathematics" means. I am not a coordinator, but my understanding of their role is that when this discussion reaches a conclusion, a coordinator will evaluate the discussion here and the article's adherence to the featured article criteria and decide whether the article should remain a featured article or be delisted. The criteria for mathematics articles are the same as other articles, and I don't think coordinators have a preference for the type of articles that are featured. Pinging @FAR coordinators: to give a better explanation than me. Z1720 (talk) 13:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure. I was trying to say that, since some of the users have criticized your comments about TOOBIG and ONELEVELDOWN problems allegedly, it might ping coordinators who are experts in mathematics as well, ensuring find a solution to the drama of mathematical topics discussed here. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 13:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

There aren't coordinators assigned to specific subjects. Typically posts at WikiProjects would be a tool to bring in expert reviewers - I see that has already been done in this case. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it is worth pointing out that the same issues about TOOBIG and ONELEVELDOWN arose already in Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/John von Neumann/1 (a similar case of someone known for research contributions that are both extensive and highly technical). There, Nikkimaria had a (very minor but non-neutral) role on the side of byte-counting and of pushing to cut down much of the technical content. Since the same issues are a central concern in this FAR, I would have greater confidence in the neutrality of some other coordinator. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking about the same thing. Considering that rewrite her contribution as summary and then create Contributions of Emmy Noether just the similar how did one proposed in John von Neumann, recall that WP:TECHNICAL have a quote of saying that a good article will always grab of interest so the audience may interest to read it. And for the preassumption, I think it is a 50-50. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

There are some math topics where we can at least explain the question at a high school/pop science level and then say that the person is famous because they answered it. Andrew Wiles? Oh, he proved Fermat's Last Theorem. Kenneth Appel and Wolfgang Haken? They proved the four color theorem. Emmy Noether? OK, better sit down, this is going to take a minute.... The least abstract thing to explain is probably her contribution to physics, but even that requires understanding what a conservation law is and what we mean by a "symmetry", not of a shape, but of a physical law. XOR'easter (talk) 17:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Minor Update: citation needed tags are down to 11. Sgubaldo (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Down to 9. Sgubaldo (talk) 19:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

My guess is that it won't take 9 different references to fill in the 9 requests. An introduction to algebraic invariant theory might satisfy 3 of them, and a work on chain conditions might take care of another 3. Arguably, the sentence Much of Noether's work lay in determining... is a summary that doesn't need a blue clicky linky number of its own, and An algebra consists of... could be sourced to any book that defines an algebra over a ring. That leaves finding a secondary source describing what she wrote in Abstrakter Aufbau der Idealtheorie in algebraischen Zahl- und Funktionenkörpern. XOR'easter (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Now down to 5. XOR'easter (talk) 04:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

..and now 3. I sourced the material on invariant theory to Schur's very traditional text, which is hopefully a decent background read to Noether's achievements. Felix QW (talk) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, @Felix QW. Is there a specific page number for Ref. 176? Sgubaldo (talk) 21:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The reason I gave the whole book here is that this book (in its entirety) is dedicated to the programme sketched out in the preceding sentences. Felix QW (talk) 22:21, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Now only 1. XOR'easter (talk) 22:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

And now down to 0. However, the first paragraph in the algebraic invariant theory section has no citations, only a footnote. I'd say the 'everyday example' falls under WP:BLUESKY, but I'm wondering if the discriminant example and the footnote require one. @Felix QW, pinging to check if Schur covers either the statement in the footnote or the discriminant example? Sgubaldo (talk) 03:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@Sgubaldo: BLUESKY is an essay, which (as it says at the top), "contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines". Meanwhile, WP:V is a policy that FA articles must adhere to. My opinion is: if the information is so obvious that it doesn't need a citation, then it doesn't need to be stated in the article as the reader will already know that information. If the information needs to be stated for the reader's understanding, then it should be cited. Z1720 (talk) 14:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The everyday example will be obvious to the reader, but is still useful as a preamble for the more complicated example that comes directly afterwards. Perhaps some textbook uses the yardstick example that's in the article. And yes, the discriminant part needs a citation. I see a cn tag has been placed and the footnote removed. Sgubaldo (talk) 03:04, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I wonder if spatial rotations are more likely to be used in introductions to group theory overall, rather than algebraic invariant theory. Plenty of works on the latter probably discuss the discriminant example, whereas rotations of a metre stick are too elementary for them. I plugged in a citation for the basic idea of invariant theory. I don't think it spells out the discriminant example in full detail, though I might have overlooked that. XOR'easter (talk) 18:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

After the mid-January discussion above, the article has had no cleanup tags or banners. Gradual improvement has continued (there was another citation added today, for instance) but is there any issue left that still rises to the level of needing an FAR? —David Eppstein (talk) 19:02, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

• Closing note: This removal candidate has been kept, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. DrKay (talk) 20:11, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because of lack of sourcing and lack of page numbers for verifiability, as well as prose and style issues. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:13, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I could probably resolve some of the citation formatting issues, but due to how access to newspapers is in Singapore resolving the other issues will be very difficult for anyone who does not live in Singapore. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Personally at first glance it's still in decent shape for an old FA, albeit with just a couple of uncited statements which can either be removed or looked up on NewspaperSG. But I can only devote some energy into this if given some time.--ZKang123 (talk) 04:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Will assist as well. – robertsky (talk) 05:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

NewspaperSG does not give complete access unless one lives in Singapore and has library access, is what I was getting at. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:06, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

• Move to FARC, issues largely unaddressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Move to FARC per Nikkimaria. Sgubaldo (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
• Move to FARC no edits since November, concerns remain. Z1720 (talk) 23:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised include sourcing, prose and style. DrKay (talk) 15:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Delist No recent edits to address concerns. Z1720 (talk) 21:10, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
• Delist per issues raised above. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:03, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delist; issues remain. Hog Farm _Talk 22:07, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
• Closing note: This removal candidate has been delisted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. DrKay (talk) 10:47, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because the naming section is uncited, numerous tags throughout the article of various issues, and a "Conservation" section is missing. The article would also benefit from a search of more recent sources in order to add the most up-to-date information to the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC so significant progress to address the above concerns. Z1720 (talk) 15:16, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Does need some work definitely. Taking off Coordinator hat with this one. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

• @Casliber: Are you still interested in working on this? Z1720 (talk) 15:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Errr.....maybe? I'll take another look at it but not feeling terribly enthusiastic about it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised in the review section include sourcing and comprehensiveness. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

• Delist. Tagged for unsourced statements, lacking reliable references, weasel words, in need of update and needing clarification. DrKay (talk) 14:42, 8 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delist - issues are unaddressed. Hog Farm _Talk 01:51, 11 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delist issues still present in the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:36, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
• Closing note: This removal candidate has been delisted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:21, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Review section

Sadly, this key Operation Majestic Titan article is no longer at the current standards. I voiced concerns on the article's talk page over a year and a half ago, but the only activity there since has been an IP raising minor accuracy concerns. As a MILHIST regular, I regret having to take this here, but I lack the sources and subject matter knowledge to resolve this concerns myself. Hopefully the outcome of Wikipedia:Featured article review/Ironclad warship/archive1 can be avoided. Hog Farm _Talk 22:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I just skimmed the article's sourcing and agree that there are major formatting issues for the cites and bibliography. I can fix all that pretty easily. I'll see what more needs to be done after I do that and look at your comments on the talk page.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Man, I just started trying to figure out which actual book goes with some of the cites and I can't match them up! Furthermore, some of the pages cited don't relate to the material cited at all. I just deleted them and will cite them properly as I find time.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Sturm, is that work that you anticipate could be done within FAR? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I think so; I'll try not to drag it out as long as I did for Wisconsin and Missouri.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Sturm, any update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm in the process of moving, so little to nothing until December--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Sturm? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Nikkimaria, I intend to work on this. On my read through I see 20 small paragraphs which don't have citations. Also, there are a few long paragraphs which only have 1 citation, so I will try to add more. Matarisvan (talk) 14:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan, are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria, I do, but it will take me some time, since a GA reassessment is taking up too much of it. I think it could be closed today, and if it is, I expect to be done with this rewrite in 30 days. I hope that is not too long. Matarisvan (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

As a slightly random drive by comment, the 'Survivors' section should note that only the outer structure of Mikasa survives: the interior of the ship, its armament, etc, were scrapped under the terms of Japan's surrender in 1945. The museum inside the ship has some photos showing that it was essentially reduced to nothing. The ship was cheaply and poorly restored to resemble its previous external appearance in the 1950s or 1960s. Nick-D (talk) 01:06, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

FARC section

Stalled. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

• Delist The article does not meet FA standards and progress is not being made to fix the various problems. Nick-D (talk) 00:58, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delist Too much uncited. Z1720 (talk) 04:56, 8 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delist - sourcing issues. Hog Farm _Talk 05:29, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delist - agree its not sufficiently sourced LeChatiliers Pupper (talk) 05:39, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
• Closing note: This removal candidate has been delisted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. DrKay (talk) 08:00, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Review section

Issues about this Featured Article—primarily, outdated info—were raised in January 2021. The article was then listed at WP:FARGIVEN in May 2023 when updates failed to materialize in the preceding year. Since then, other than rescuing dead links, no major updates have been made; a major contributor who is just now notified hasn't been active for at least one year. George Ho (talk) 21:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC reluctantly. The issues here aren't especially extensive, and I'd be happy to give MONGO or anyone else interested more time to address them. But it's been four years since the initial notification, over a year since MONGO was last active, and two months since this FAR was started, so I do think we need to move toward delisting unless someone wants to take this on. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
• Move to FARC – no work being done to address issues. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Currency. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:39, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Throwing in my hat to try to bring this up to date. There's a Forest Service book from the 2020s that should do the trick. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no Forest Service 2020s book. A librarian at the National Agricultural Library discovered today that Google Books's find, ostensibly from 2021, is republished 1941 text.

Separately, SandyGeorgia left us a list from 2020 as a starting point. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Copied from Sandy's list:

• including the largest population of Bighorn sheep and one of the few locations Grizzly bears can still be found in the contiguous U. S..

• Yes, the forest website still makes both claims. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• limited hunting of wolves was permitted in the forest starting in 2012 ... where does that stand ?

• No change. Updated the ref to 2023. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Other ungulate species are much more common and there are over 20,000 elk (also known as wapiti) and 40,000 mule deer ...

• Working on this. Appears to be a problem -SusanLesch (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• However, the state water board for Wyoming lists only 63 glaciers for the entire Wind River Range, which includes glaciers in adjacent Bridger-Teton National Forest.[84] Researchers claim that for most of the period that glaciers have been known to exist in the forest, that they have been in a state of general retreat, with glacial mass losses of as much as 25 percent between the years 1985 and 2009.
• Gannett Glacier, on the northeast slope of Gannett Peak, is the largest single glacier in the U.S. Rocky Mountains. It has reportedly lost over 50 percent of its volume since 1920 with 25 percent of that occurring between the years 1980–1999.

-SusanLesch (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Delist per the above. No one else has stepped forward to try to save this after SusanLesch's withdrawal. Z1720 (talk) 04:54, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

• Delist per Z1720. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delist. Tagged as needing additional references. Verifiability and relevancy concerns as noted above. DrKay (talk) 14:48, 8 February 2025 (UTC)
• Closing note: This removal candidate has been delisted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:46, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.