Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Aston Villa F.C. managers

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 14 days, 5 support, 0 oppose. Promote. Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

---

Peer Review (originally for both captains and managers but they were split)

Along the same lines as the recently promoted List of Aston Villa F.C. players. This is part of the continuous improvement by Everlast1910 and myself, of all Aston Villa F.C. articles. I think this meets all the criteria and is now worthy of FL status. Thanks Woodym555 20:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• Co-nom and support, I also feel this list is ready to be featured. I will be here to help address any concerns raised by other editors. (Everlast ¹⁹¹⁰ 14:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC))

Comment Why are there no links for "W J Smith" and "Dick Taylor"? Mattythewhite 21:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't know why to be honest, i have added them both. I created Dick Taylor the other day, must have forgotten to link him. W J Smith is still a red link but have added the link nonetheless. Thanks Woodym555 21:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment {{Soccerbase (manager)}} template doesn't have a field for accessdate, so I'd suggest either add that parameter to the template or not use that template at all. Second, I'd prefer you to use Ulster Banner as a flag for Northern Ireland since this is about sports and link to Northern Ireland instead of United Kingdom.--Crzycheetah 00:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Done Removed accessdate and template is now sorted so shows correct flag (Everlast1910(Talk) 12:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC))

I have used the {{cite web}} template instead of the {{Soccerbase (manager)}} template as this has an accessdate parameter and is well known and used. Any other suggestions welcome. Woodym555 17:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, looks good now. Is there any other lists of F.C. managers here at Wikipedia? I am just curious to know whether this is the first such list.--Crzycheetah 18:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It is not unique, no, although most are usually incorporated into articles. Courtesy of Deadly Doug Ellis, Villa seem to have been through their fair share of managers. I have looked around and can't find any football ones. There is the List of managers and owners of the Chicago Cubs, List of AS Roma Managers, List of Montreal Canadiens general managers and List of Manchester City F.C. managers (which by the way seems close to FL quality). So, no, not alone. Woodym555 18:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. Anyway, this list a good model for future FLs in this category and I support. --Crzycheetah 18:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment As I discovered when assembling the aforementioned List of Manchester City F.C. managers, Soccerbase uses estimates for appointment dates of managers from more than about 20 years ago (see also this FAC). It'd be useful to get these confirmed by a second source. Oldelpaso 19:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
  • The appointment dates are confirmed by trawling through the Villa history pages, all internet sites are mirrors and forks. The appointments are correct. I will try and search out sources for the older ones but i do consider soccerbase to be a reliable source, published by the Racing Post. Woodym555 21:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Which Villa history pages? One other point, I think the lead should mention Deadly Doug given his fearsome reputation for sacking Villa managers. Oldelpaso 10:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes i was thinking that, something along the lines of: In the past 30 years Doug Ellis has acquired the nickname Deadly Doug Ellis because of his penchant for hiring and firing managers. In the 37 years that Doug Ellis was involved with the Board, Doug Ellis hired and fired 13 out of the 24 managers that Aston Villa have had in their 133 year history.(using correct cite template).

I agree i think that is about right woodym555 shall we add it into the intro? Everlast¹⁹¹⁰ 13:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

With regards to the history pages i have double checked the Aston Villa offical history pages and actually they don't go into specific dates, (i thought they did). The soccerbase dates actually gave me cause for concern because of the one year gap between McMullan and Hogan. I have emailed a friend who has a Villa encyclopedia and he has confirmed the 1936 date. I have added that as a reference and will soon acquire the book so this can then be used for specific page numbers. Any other queries? Woodym555 12:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Support, changes to lead have improved it significantly. Oldelpaso 18:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• (edit conflict - Oldelpaso's point wasn't an issue I knew about, and I wouldn't disagree with his suggestion) Comments Good work once again; just nitpicking now!

• George Ramsey's dates could do with a reference (his article doesn't have any to copy over, I'm afraid, but I imagine it should be easy to confirm)
  • referenced
• Can you create a stub for W J Smith, so we lose the redlink?
  • Will do soon
    • I trust you! Bencherlite^Talk 21:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Done it now. Woodym555 22:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
• "played" doesn't seem the right heading for managers' results, and "win, draw, lose" might sound better in the past tense - how about: "Matches, won, drawn, lost"?
  • Seems fair enough to me, have accepted the change.
• How about saying "information not available", as you did on the players' list?
  • done
• As well as the honours, how about mentioning the times when AV was relegated? (I know it's a sore point, but...)
  • I agree with the rationale behind mentioning it, i only question the practicalities. It can't really go in the Honours section, hardly an Honour. I can't think what to rename it as though. (McMullan, Mercer, D.Taylor and B McNeill have that dubious honour) Woodym555 21:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Rename the section "Honours and relegations"? "Significant events"? or something similar perhaps. Up to you whether you want to include the info. Bencherlite^Talk 21:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
• How about having it sortable? It'd be interesting to be able to click and compare e.g. no of matches, win%. You could combine the secretary & manager sections for this, perhaps with a footnote for the two secretaries to note their status. (At least you won't have the nationality sorting problem of your last list, and you've already put the managers' names in sortable format). I've put something in my sandbox which you might want to look at, using {{nts}} and {{dts}} (and my preferred column headings!) as well - I don't think I garbled the information in doing so...
  • Thankyou for taking the time to add all of the {{nts}}'s in!!! I have basically added your table across, i think it works although i would question the validity of sorting the win/lose/draw. You cannot really gain any useful information from it unless you factor in overall number of games. That is what the win percentage is for. I do see the reasoning behind having that sortable. I can't see it being a problem or anything commented on to be honest, so i am happy for it to remain. Woodym555 21:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
    • No problem. I agree that the win% is the main one, although comparing the absolute numbers of games won and lost might interest some. Bencherlite^Talk 21:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not far off supporting, but I just think there's a few tweaks that would make this an excellent piece of work. Feel free to tell me why you don't agree with my thoughts, though. Bencherlite^Talk 20:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Support Bencherlite^Talk 21:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Just some minor issues regarding the lead paragraph before I lend my support to this article's candidacy:
  • "The following is a list of Aston Villa managers from the founding of Aston Villa F.C. until present." - When was the founding of Aston Villa F.C.?
    • 1874 and i have added it in.
  • "From 1884 to 1934, the team was selected by committee and the secretary of the committee had the same power as current day managers." - Not essential, but I would personally try to avoid using "the committee" too often in one sentence. Perhaps try "the team was selected by committee, the secretary of which had the same power..."
    • Agreed, fixed
  • "There were two secretaries during this period, George Ramsay and W J Smith." - Not directly related to this article, but "W J Smith" should be named "W. J. Smith" per WP:NCP. Perhaps consider moving the article to the suggested name.
    • Moved and fixed.
  • "In 1934 the club appointed the first manager, Jimmy McMullan who was the first of 22 people to manage Aston Villa." - First, there should be a comma following "In 1934". Second, how many people have managed Aston Villa? Here you say 22 people have managed the club, but later you say that there have been 24 managers. Were George Ramsay and W. J. Smith club secretaries or were they managers? If they were secretaries, should they be included in this list?
    • They should be included as they have the same role and they managed the team, just didn't pick it. I have added brackets to the sentence.
  • "The most successful manager was George Ramsay who won 6 FA Cups and 6 Division One championships in his 42 year-reign as secretary of the club." - Same issue as above. Was George Ramsay the manager or the secretary of the club? This sentence seems to suggest he was both.
    • Have amended wording slightly to The most successful person to manage the club,
  • "In the 37 years that Doug Ellis was involved with the Board,..." - Should "Board" start with a capital letter?
    • Yes, it is a proper noun.
  • "The last manager that Doug Eliis hired was the current incumbent," - "Eliis" should read "Ellis". Also, is "incumbent" an appropriate word to use here? I realise it can be difficult to avoid overusing the word "manager" in a list of club managers, but in this case it may be appropriate.
    • yes, it is an appropriate word for this encyclopedia, IMO. Maybe not for the Simple english wikipedia. ;) Woodym555 09:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "This was one of Doug Ellis's last acts before selling the club to Randy Lerner." - "Ellis's" should read "Ellis'".

• • No, it shouldn't. I was taught (I think) that for singular words and names, you only dropped the 's for long words where pronunciation was awkward if an extra "s" was added, or for words ending in two lots of "s" like Francis' rather than Francis's. But not even those, necessarily. See Apostrophe#Singular nouns ending in s, z, or x. Struway2 | Talk 08:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• I hope that was helpful. Bear in mind that this is the first time I've helped review a Featured list candidate, so I apologise if I've been a bit pedantic. - PeeJay 01:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Not pedantic, just thorough, which is what it needs. I have fixed or responded to your concerns. Thanks for taking the time to review it. Woodym555 09:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • In that case, I now Support this FLC. - PeeJay 09:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment I've had a go at copyediting the lead section. I'm putting it here rather than editing the article myself as don't want to interfere with the work the original editors have put in, unless they're happy with it. Please feel free to use, improve or discard as you choose.

The following is a list of Aston Villa managers from the founding of Aston Villa F.C. in 1874 until the present.

From 1874 to 1934, the team was selected by a committee whose secretary had the same powers and role as a manager has today. There were two secretaries during this period, George Ramsay and W. J. Smith. The most successful person to manage the club was George Ramsay, who won six FA Cups and six First Division championships in his 42-year reign as secretary. Jimmy McMullan became the first full-time manager in 1934. Aston Villa were the first top-tier club to appoint a manager from outside the United Kingdom and Ireland when Jozef Venglos was appointed in 1990.^[1]

Manager turnover has increased substantially over the past 30 years. The chairman of the time, Doug Ellis, acquired the nickname Deadly Doug because of his penchant for hiring and firing managers. In the 37 years that Ellis was involved with the Board, he hired and fired 13 out of the 24 managers that Aston Villa have had over their 133-year history.^[2] One of Ellis's last acts before selling the club to Randy Lerner was to appoint the current incumbent, Martin O'Neill, who has been with the club since August 4 2006.

• also, the Matches/w/l/d columns would look better centralised rather than left-aligned

Struway2 | Talk 10:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• • I think that lead is an excellent revision and you should add it in. With regards to the centralisation, it is a matter of personal taste. I have now centralised it as, after viewing it in two tabs, i think centralised works slightly better. Not much of a difference if i'm honest. Woodym555 11:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • have added lead section as above. Also added trailing zeroes where required in win% column to align on decimal point, looks tidier that way. Struway2 | Talk 12:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment There's inconsistency as to what competitions are being included in each manager's w/l/d stats. Presumably this stems from using Soccerbase as the primary (only?) source. It's fine for recent years, but not for older data. The problem being the note which appears under the managerial career stats tables that reads "NB: Only games with a date in the database counted here".

For example, see Tommy Docherty's managerial career. The 46 games they give him are League games only; if you look at Aston Villa's results/fixtures for the 68-9 and 69-70 seasons on Soccerbase, the League Cup and FA Cup games don't have dates against them, so any cup games played while he was manager aren't counted.

Whereas in recent seasons, the results/fixtures do have dates against the cup games, so for instance Martin O'Neill's figures will include both league and cup games. Struway2 | Talk 21:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)