Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Liverpool F.C. managers/archive1
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List of Liverpool F.C. managers
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 17 days, 2 support, 1 oppose. No consensus for promotion Fail. Scorpion0422 22:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe this article fulfills all the criteria necessary to be a Featured List, after some hard work over the past week. NapHit 16:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment Dates in ref not entered right. Buc 19:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Fixed NapHit 20:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Not done and ref 3 not entered right. Buc 17:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Done ArtVandelay13 19:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment In the first half of the list every manager is stated as starting on the first of the month, which makes me think these are estimates. Could these be checked using a second source? Oldelpaso 15:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
- Support. My concern has been dealt with. Oldelpaso 15:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I've fixed one of them but it will be very hard to find this information, however if I find them I will them to the article, otherwise it will just be like List of York City F.C. managers which passed FLC NapHit 17:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
- Done with two exceptions (annotated). ArtVandelay13 18:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why done George Kay have a "To" date and a note saying the date is unknown? Buc 11:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- Turns out it's possible to leave out the day entirely, so I've done that instead on those two examples. ArtVandelay13 11:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why done George Kay have a "To" date and a note saying the date is unknown? Buc 11:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comments -
- I would suggest splitting the last paragraph of the lead section into two parts, as it looks a bit long at the minute.
- In the instances of the Barclay-McKenna and Evans-Houllier partnerships, I would suggest putting each name on a separate line and removing the "and". I would also recommend placing a line break between their nationality flags to prevent the flag of the second nationality being displayed on the same line as the first nationality.
- Note #3 says that Win% is rounded to 2 decimal places. However, this is not the case for the Win% of Ashworth, Moran and Souness.
- Souness's "From" year should be changed from 191 to 1991.
- Everything done except for the line break which I am unsure about how to do, if anyone could fix that it would be an immense help 14:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- PeeJay 12:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- By "line break" I meant adding <br /> between the nationalities. - PeeJay 17:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- Done NapHit 16:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
CommentLead needs some work:It needs a bit of referencing, especially the bit about Dalglish not copingIt needs to be checked to make sure it makes sense... e.g. and a year Liverpool won the FA Cup. (???)FA cup triumphs, only FA Cup should be wikilinked.Other than the WP:LEAD, the actual table and list looks good. Just give the Lead another run through.Woodym555 14:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ok I have gone through the lead and referenced it NapHit 16:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Whilst i think the lead is long, almost too long, i agree that it would be hard to trim. The actual content of the lead has improved and i now Support. Woodym555 16:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment
- Content - by taking Soccerbase's figures on trust, you've omitted half of David Ashworth's games - see http://www.lfchistory.net/managers_gamestats.asp .
- You reference both lfchistory and soccerbase, the lfchistory stats have a few more games against some of the managers than do soccerbase. e.g. Dalglish 307 as against 297, Welsh 234/232. Do you happen to know what they're counting that soccerbase aren't?
- Lead para - does League Title need capital letters?
- player-manager could be wikilinked
- the punctuation needs a bit of a copyedit, if you don't fancy doing it i'd be happy to have a go. Struway2 | Talk 07:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think the odd differences in some of them may be lfchistory.net is more accuarte with historical data, as Rafa Benitez's games are the same on both. NapHit 17:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
Oppose at the moment, the following need to be resolved.
- Soccerbase only counts statistics for matches in its database. For List of Ipswich Town F.C. managers it proved highly inaccurate for earlier managers so other reliable sources ought to be sought.
- Citations should be placed per WP:CITE.
- "They were replaced in 1896 by Tom Watson, Watson proceeded to win two Division One championships." - reads poorly, replace repeated "Watson" with "who" perhaps?
- In general the lead needs copyediting - the prose is poorly constructed and grammatically it's weak.
- "Player-manager" - no need to capitalise.
- Is that the best image of any Liverpool manager available? Bearly discernable that it's Benitez really, but I do appreciate how hard it is to get hold of images...
Let me know if I can help. The Rambling Man 08:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Ok I've addressed all the issues you rose thanks for your comments NapHit 15:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Further comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
- Better picture, it needs a fair use rationale for this specific article.
- Lead is four paragraphs - too long, see WP:LEAD.
- Consistent ref names "LFChistory" or "lfchistory"...
Very close to being FL standard now I think. The Rambling Man 16:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Ok I have done all you mentioned, I am not sure I can take much else off the lead, and I don't think the first sentence can count as a paragraph NapHit 17:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose:
- Lead is too long, and first sentence is too stubby to count as its own paragraph. Perhaps some of the lead can be moved to a new History section, situated above the list? This strategy works well for hockey trophy lists.
- Whilst i do think that the lead is too big, i don't think a history section would be very good. This is already covered in several history articles.Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree. A history section relating specifically to managers of the club is completely relevant to this list. History of Liverpool F.C. discusses the history of the club in general, not the specific history of the managers. I see no problem with including a history section, although I do not think it is necessary for this to be a FL. Rai-me 21:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Whilst i do think that the lead is too big, i don't think a history section would be very good. This is already covered in several history articles.Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Flagship image is very weak. Perhaps an image that relates to the entire club can be used? I would think that any images of actual managers should be aligned to the right of the list, not in the lead. Can any other free images of managers be found?
- I think that the image is perfectly acceptable. As the longest serving manager it has a high relevance to the list. The image should be specific to the managers and not the club, it is about the managers after all. A crest would be the next best alternative although they are all fair use and should not be used. In terms of alignment, right aligning would compress the columns and make the list look unsightly. I think it looks good where it is at the moment. Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I personally like this choice of image, and think that it is very suitable for this article. Robotforaday 14:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it is definitely suitable for placement in the article, but I question whether it should be used as the lead image. I agree, copyrighted crests should not be used. I was thinking something more along the lines of an overall picture of the club or an image of the Shankly gates. Of course, the lead does not need a flagship image. However, I strongly disagree about the right alignment; I have performed an edit preview, and the column compressment is not a major problem. Also, if this format were used, Image:John McKenna.jpg and Image:George Kay.jpg, which are also completely relevant to the article and should be included if possible, can be used. Rai-me 21:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I personally like this choice of image, and think that it is very suitable for this article. Robotforaday 14:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think that the image is perfectly acceptable. As the longest serving manager it has a high relevance to the list. The image should be specific to the managers and not the club, it is about the managers after all. A crest would be the next best alternative although they are all fair use and should not be used. In terms of alignment, right aligning would compress the columns and make the list look unsightly. I think it looks good where it is at the moment. Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Overlinking in tables - I don't think that England, Scotland, France, etc. need to be continually wikilinked in every entry. Only the first entry of each country needs to be wikilinked.- It is part of the flagicon template that is used. {{IRL}} for example. Anyway, given the fact that the table can be sorted, the first mention would change with each sorting. Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, my mistake. However, a format similar to that in List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people: W-Z could be used, without flag icons. As for sortability, as long as one link is wikilinked, this is not a major concern, and does not warrant repetitive wikilinking. Rai-me 21:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- It is part of the flagicon template that is used. {{IRL}} for example. Anyway, given the fact that the table can be sorted, the first mention would change with each sorting. Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I would not suggest using small font in list entries. There is really no strong reason why normal font size cannot be used.
- Agree Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Lead is too long, and first sentence is too stubby to count as its own paragraph. Perhaps some of the lead can be moved to a new History section, situated above the list? This strategy works well for hockey trophy lists.
- Why is the To column not in sortable format?
- It would be redundant, the from column does exactly the same thing given the fact that when one ends the other begins. Also, they start off in date order to begin with. It is common amongst football manager articles. (That is not to say that it is correct) Woodym555 13:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Why is the To column not in sortable format?
- Overall, these are fairly minor concerns. I will re-assess my opinion if they are addressed and/or explained. Rai-me 00:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comments. Two things, both of which would not be that hard to sort, but I am in work and so can't do them right now:
- Mention should be made of Houllier's illness and Phil Thompson's standing in for him during this period.
- McKenna's flag is incorrect, as Ireland was not the Republic of Ireland at that time.
Robotforaday 12:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)