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Book written by Haganah (later IDF) commander, Joseph Tabenkin

On 24 July 2018, our fellow co-editor, User:Huldra, deleted a source cited by us in a series of articles, namely: Khulda (see here), Saris (see here), Suba, Jerusalem (see here), Dayr Muhaysin (see here), Bayt Naqquba, and Qalunya, claiming in each revert that the source was "unreliable." A complaint was lodged on each of the Talk Pages. The source in question is taken from a book published by the "Tabenkin Memorial," in Ramat Ef'al (Israel), and written by Joseph Tabenkin, the commander of the Harel Brigade during Israel's War of Independence, and specifically during Operation Nachshon and Operation Ha-Har. A photo of the author from Wikimedia Commons appears on the Talk-Page of Operation Ha-Har. Here, in Israel, the author is held in utmost esteem. Although there is no Wikipedia article devoted solely on him and his exploits, he is still mentioned in numerous web-sites, among which are Palmah Information Center (Hebrew), and Yosef Tabenkin Dead at 66, and The Raid on Ramla , et al. The book is available in Israel's public libraries, including the Hebrew University Library, containing 176 pages with illustrations. Excerpts from the book, published in Hebrew, have been transcribed in English for our readers. It seems that our co-editor, based on her edit summary, had confused our "Yosef Tabenkin" with another by the name of "Yitzhak Tabenkin."Davidbena (talk) 05:07, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Tabenkin was a military leader during a war, and the question is whether he can be used as a reliable source of facts about that war. The answer is "obviously not". Not only are memoirs treated with suspicion by historians, being often inaccurate and self-serving, but the author had an obvious conflict of interest. If the memoir is published by an organization dedicated to the memory of the author, that makes the situation even worse; it is as close to "self-published" as a book by a dead person can be. Given Tabenkin's senior position, a case could be made for citing some of his claims as official claims with attribution, but that would require a consideration of whether he was writing on behalf of the authorities or only for himself. What we need to cite is sources by historians, as they have evaluated all the sources including memoirs on the basis of their professional expertise. Tabenkin's standing as a war hero in Israel and the availability of the book are both entirely irrelevant to the question of reliability. Zerotalk 09:42, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
These aren't memoirs - Tabenkin in his post-war career was a part-time historian and in the 80s devoted a significant chunk of his time to research. The book should be perfectly fine for an attributed statement in relation to all of the cited articles.Icewhiz (talk) 11:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
On what basis? What's the publisher? You objected to using an actual historian with works published by actual academic presses because of a supposed bias here, but a part-time historian who is actually a primary source qualifies because he devoted a significant chunk of his time to research? Are you at all concerned with even the appearance of being impartial on this board? nableezy - 12:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I said attributed use - he's certainly a reasonable attributed source for what the IDF thought/considered.Icewhiz (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
And I again compare that position to what you said about an actual historian with actual scholarship on this topic. A so-called part time historian[citation needed] qualifies in your mind but an actual historian does not? nableezy - 17:16, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

I'd suggest he's reliable for some things, like his own opinion on things that he was involved in. I'd suggest he wouldn't be reliable for speculations about others' motivations, for example. So I'd say he's a primary source. Whether he could be a secondary source for event he wasn't involved in is an interesting question, but I get the impression that's not what's at stake here. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm surprised at the incredulous allegations that a person who took part in that war is seen as an invalid witness of events, when even the US Civil War diaries, written by officers who took part in that conflict, are viewed as reliable sources. The real reason, it would seem, for their disapproval of using Joseph Tabenkin's war accounts is that it clearly points out the reasons for the Haganah offensive, which in military terms was a just offensive. However, some editors seem to have an agenda to paint Israel as the aggressor, based on their history of edits in articles relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The issue at hand has, therefore, little to do with its reliability as a source (as it is), but rather an objection by them to point the blame, as it were, on blockage of the Tel-Aviv - Jerusalem highway, just as it is described by Tabenkin, and just as it has already been mentioned in articles on Wikipedia: See, for example, Battle for Jerusalem#Food rationing and Operation Nachshon#Background, to name only a few. When the author mentions orders that had passed down from the military echelon to destroy Arab villages along the Tel-Aviv - Jerusalem highway which had been used as a base of operations to intercept Jewish convoys, this is NOT coming from a Primary Source, but rather a Secondary Source. This is precisely what our edit entails. Davidbena (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I didn't say he wasn't reliable. I said he was reliable as a primary source. Like I am a reliable primary source about how flipping hot my tube journey was this morning. ("Boiling"). Useful for getting an impression. Not scientific though. You'd want a reliable secondary source. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:40, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
So, if it's a matter of citing also a Secondary source, saying exactly what Tabenkin said, we have it here: Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins, O Jérusalem, Robert Laffont, 1971, p. 369 ISBN 2-266-10698-8 --Davidbena (talk) 14:00, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I would say he is reliable for his views, not for those views being facts.Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
In other words, you would support citing the same information in his name, such as: "According to Haganah commander, Joseph Tabenkin, etc., etc." This would also be acceptable to me.Davidbena (talk) 13:52, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I was replying to the OP, and this was indented correctly. But yes that is my basic point.Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Totally agree with Slatersteven. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:22, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Everybody is reliable for their own views. But whether or not to include that view in an article on history is another question. For statements like those in the diffs above, eg this, a secondary source should be used, not a primary one. This covers a time-period and place with no dearth of reliable sources, so the "according to primary source" formulation is entirely unnecessary. nableezy - 14:33, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
True, and if they are published then they may well be worthy for inclusion, but that is less of an RS then an Undue question. So the question is is this a history or a memoir, the other question is is it SPS? It is an SPS, which must raise some concerns. But (if) as claimed he has some reputation is Israel as a historian it meets the SPS criteria (a recognized expert expressing an opinion). But it would only be his opinion, not an uncontested fact. So it all boils down to what is his reputation as a historian, or is this just an SPS memoir?Slatersteven (talk) 14:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
On that diff from Nableezy, I think the way the source was used was wrong, but it would be right if it said that "Israeli military believed..." sourced to someone who was in the Israeli military. I'd also contend that "a village" is poor. A village is inanimate. People from, or villagers from would be more accurate. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
That one part gave me pause as he might be usable for the portion on what the Haganah commanders decided, but even then that is well-covered in scholarly secondary sources making any use of a primary source superfluous (see eg Benny Morris (October 2008). 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War. Yale University Press. p. 119. ISBN 978-0-300-14524-3.). nableezy - 15:58, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
This isn't quite a primary source. It is a possibly biased secondary source (which we can make clear via attribution). As for no lack of sources - for some of these lesser known villages - there actually are fairly few sources. Using Tabenkin on 1948 Arab–Israeli War would not be necessary - using him for lesser discussed villages can fill in holes.Icewhiz (talk) 16:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I've looked through Benny Morris on each of these villages, and compared his numerous comments to what the reverted edits stated. The content of the latter is generic, subsuming, as one would expect from a memoir by a soldier, complex details into the village/villagers whereas Morris is nuanced, with roving bands of irregular going around villages trying to get support, and different reactions from the villages affected. Suba, Jerusalem, for example, had a made an agreement with Jewish neighbouring villages not to be involved in attacks (p.75). The destruction of (Saris was planned in January before the real heat of open warfare developed, for strategic reasons, apparently regardless of the behaviour, whatever that was (and attitudes could change over time) of the villagers; The Nachson Operation was planned to treat Khulda and all other villages along the Khulda-Jerusalem route as enemy assembly points, whatever the individual village realities were (p.233)-it's not therefore as Tabenkin has it that the villagers had invariably taken part in operations against the Jews . At Qalunya, villagers chased off an armed band (p.97) early in the piece, not wanting to get involved, for example. In one case, a single motor-cyclist from one of those villages spied out Jewish positions, and passed the information to Arab irregulars, but that doesn't translate into the village/villagers. In other words, using a self-published memoir that fails to provide the complex factors at play, of the kind Morris's archival masterpiece supplies (in part) makes it effectively unusable as reliable history. These matters are covered quite thoroughly in, esp. Israeli historiography of the highest quality, and we should only cite Tabenkin if those secondary sources consider some specific detail in his work important.Nishidani (talk) 16:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
He was a commander for one of the parties to the conflict that he is writing about. I think the general consensus here is that he is indeed a primary source for this material and should not be used for facts. nableezy - 17:14, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The 1948 Arab Israeli war is one which is covered in numerous academic sources, in English. I cannot see any reason to add a (self-published?) memoir in Hebrew, not unless it has been quoted by any of those historians.
(Also, I totally disagree that Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins are good RS..they were not historians. Eg, their book on the India/Pakistan breakup is shockingly bad....eg they take what Lord Mountbatten said as God given truth...evnen though there was absolutely no backing up of what he was alleged to have said. That is a mistake no historian worth their salt would do. With such shitty methods, I would not be surprised if they took 100% of what Tabenkin said as the God given truth, too.)
Also, Icewhiz is wrong saying that there is not a lot of material regarding many of these 1948 villages: there are new books published about them all the time. (However, it is an understandable mistake by Icewhiz, as he has not been editing their history much: I have.) Huldra (talk) 20:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
First, in response to Nishidani's comment, Joseph Tabenkin's book makes it clear on pp. 154–155 (ch. 4) , in generic terms, that a decision had been reached on 14 April 1948 in the military echelon "to utterly destroy all Arab villages along the Tel-Aviv - Jerusalem highway which had been used as a base of operations to intercept Jewish convoys." This information in each of the aforenamed articles is vital, as it gives us (1) a "motive" for the operation, and (2) "when exactly the orders filtered down in relation to other events." The illustration on p. 74 shows the order of advance throughout each of the villages named by me above, in the original post.Davidbena (talk) 22:06, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Second, in response to Huldra's comment, Tabenkin's book is NOT a memoir, but a factual account of events in the Haganah military campaign, known as Operation Nachshon. The book was NOT "self-published" as Huldra wrongly assumes, but was rather published post mortem, two years after his death, using his own writings. The information therein contained is anecdotal and will help readers understand the logic behind the operation, specifically for each of the villages named, and which were visited by troops of the Palmach during the 12 days of engagement in April of 1948. It does not surprise me that some editors who take a strong anti-Israel bias would want to expunge this vital information. As for Huldra's complaint about the book written by Dominique Lapierre, I suggest to all editors here to look at what Wikipedia has to say about his seminal work, O Jerusalem!, wherein he refers to the same events.Davidbena (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
David, you need to stop this nonsense about strong anti-Israel bias. You've done this here and on an article talk page, while you have consistently pushed fringe political POVs in a number of articles. Kindly refactor the personal attack above and we can discuss this like grown ups. Just complaining how the mean anti-Zionists wont let you use a source that each of the uninvolved editors agrees shouldnt be used for facts is both petty and dishonest. As Zero told you elsewhere, such attacks are beneath you. nableezy - 22:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
It is for the impartial judges here to decide whether or not there may be a suspected "strong anti-Israel bias" by some editors, and that by simply looking at the edit history of all contributing editors. If you mean that I have "pushed fringe political POVs" in a number of articles, I would care to know which articles you are referring to (although unrelated to our current discussion). Perhaps you mean on the Talk Page of Talk:List of military occupations#Discussion. Anyone reading there will see that my primary motive is to bring a more neutral point-of-view, and which accurately portrays both sides of the argument.Davidbena (talk) 22:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Primary source, based on the information presented. I would use it with caution if at all. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Primary source, based on the information presented it should be treated as a memoir and used with caution - if used at all. Montgomery and Churchill also wrote 'histories'. Pincrete (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
In WP:Primary sources we read: "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation, etc." (END QUOTE). In our case, we have both Primary and Secondary sources. The Primary source is used here with caution, and the editor does not elaborate more than what is brought down in a reliable Secondary source. In compliance with the above comments on this thread, any emendation in future edits will incorporate the premise that, "According to Joseph Tabenkin," such-and-such happened, without elaborating further (except, of course, where the Secondary source elaborates). In this way, we avoid reaching our own private conclusions.Davidbena (talk) 00:06, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Forbes.com

I've seen it is used in a number of articles about songs, for "Critical reception," for example. However, it is included on Wikipedia:Potentially unreliable sources because the ones that write the Forbes articles are paid contributors. Which is correct? Cornerstonepicker (talk) 02:43, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Most of the Forbes.com domain is just a glorified blog, and should be treated as any other self-published source. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:49, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Has to be assessed on an individual basis because of how Forbes is running their online magazine. Almost everything under the forbes/sites domain is written by 'contributors' who have minimal/no editorial oversight or input from Forbes. Once you are an approved contributor, its effectively a self-published blog. It can be used depending on the contributor, there are a number of journalists and experts with long experience in the field writing about their specialist subject. These are easily useable depending on context in line with self-published sources, but never for biographies of living people. There are also staff writers employed directly by Forbes, their content should be assessed in line with how we use other journalistic content. For the purposes of critical reception though, critical reception is by its nature an opinion-based issue. There are many many contributors of limited experience or qualifications publishing on forbes/sites. This can be seen often for the contributors who write about media, films, TV, games etc. They might have a journalism degree, but they have had no real past employment for a reputable publisher, no evidence why their opinion matters. If (as an example) Roger Ebert had spent the last 5 years of his life self-publishing film criticism on a blog, his opinion would have weight despite it being self-published. His long years of experience, broadcast history etc. If Bob Loudvoice with 1 year writing for obscure website publishes film criticism on forbes/sites (not an unusual occurance sadly) their opinion has little weight and would be WP:UNDUE. If you come across a forbes/sites used as a reference, and are unsure if its valid, post it here with the article and the content it is being used for. Only in death does duty end (talk) 03:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
I'll only add that Forbes also offers what is essentially a pay-to-publish-on-Forbes model through its Forbes Council (see this article on how the scheme works in practice). This further reduces the credibility of whatever is found on the website. Abecedare (talk) 22:53, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
  • This article from the Poynter Institute was mentioned in a past RSN discussion, and I'll bring it up again. In an interview, the chief product officer of Forbes.com said that stories written by contributors aren't vetted at all, but if a story gets popular, then an editor will "check it more carefully". He admitted that contributor stories aren't fact checked, and said, “The audience spots issues a lot. The audience is as much your editor now as an editor is your editor.” Forbes.com contributors are generally unreliable, especially for determining the notability of a subject. I have no opinion on Forbes.com staff articles, but note that the vast majority of Forbes.com citations used in articles nominated for deletion are written by contributors, not staff. — Newslinger talk 21:36, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Can't be used for facts, but does meet WP:RSOPINION, if and only if the writer is a recognized expert/important voice in the realm of music criticism. --Masem (t) 21:39, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Republic Standard

Deleet recently added (in this edit) content sourced to an article in the self-described conservative magazine Republic Standard (republicstandard.com) to the article London Conference on Intelligence. I am not sure if the Republic Standard is a reliable source; in fact, I strongly suspect it isn't, based on the very strong white nationalist vibe I detected when I went to its homepage. But I want other editors to weigh in on its reliability or lack thereof. IntoThinAir (formerly Everymorning) talk 12:43, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Context matters. In this case, the source is reliable... as it is being cited as a primary source - to verify the fact that a specific person (a graduate student) wrote an article appearing in that paper, and that he wrote what we say he wrote. It is similar to citing “Mein Kamph” for a statement about something that Hitler wrote in “Mein Kamph”. The issue isn’t whether the publication is reliable in general, but whether the publication reliably verifies the content of the publication itself.
That said, there is a second issue here... should our article mention what the graduate student wrote (or not). That is a DUE WEIGHT issue, not a reliability issue. Blueboar (talk) 13:15, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I'd agree with Blueboar on both points. Republic Standard does not look like it would be reliable for very much - it seems to be essentially a sensationalist alt-right blog - but if its only being used to assert the fact that a Belgian student wrote something for it, then it's reliable. The opinions of a random student about a conference they attended do not seem to me to be notable however. Girth Summit (talk)

Question on self-published sources deemed reliable

If we have a self-published source that has been deemed reliable, are we required to put a self-published tag on it [self-published source] which states "this reference citation appears to be a self-published source". We already know it is so we are not questioning its status. The fear is that it will trigger the removal of the source by other editors.Patapsco913 (talk) 14:49, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Depends. In cases where we attribute the source that would seem to be overkill, but for a self-published book we might well. Guy (Help!) 17:02, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Thainationalparks.com

I've removed from seven articles references to thainationalparks.com, a site which for the most part plagiarises Wikipedia. Does it also warrant blacklisting? --Paul_012 (talk) 07:17, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

ITunes as a reliable vendor source

Hello, may I ask if the iTunes Store can be counted as a reliable source to verify song titles for discography purposes? I've heard from an editor that the data is apparently user generated, but looking at that site I see no way for a typical end-user to just log into the website to adjust the information, unlike Discogs. Looking at the reliable source guidelines over here which state that vendor sources can be used for an indefinite period for verifiability purposes until a better secondary source is found, I see no problem with using iTunes, or Beatport similarly. aNode (discuss) 02:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Books published Heally Gross (author) and if they qualify as a reliable source

Closing this per a request at WP:ANRFC by Davidbena: Consensus is that the books published by this author, being self-published by a non-expert, are not generally reliable sources. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:29, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On 1 August 2018, fellow co-editor, User:Huldra, deleted vital sources from the article Operation Ha-Har, surmising that perhaps the author was an "unreliable source." See the three diffs here, here and here. The author and her works were discussed by me in a reply to Huldra, seen here (Talk:Operation_Ha-Har#Heally_Gross_(author)) on the Talk-Page of Operation Ha-Har. The author is Heally Gross, and the two sources cited by us are as follows:

  • Adullam: `veshavu banim ligevulam`, Jerusalem 2014 (Hebrew) [Hebrew title: עדולם: ושבו בנים לגבולם].
  • Adamah Ahuvah, Jerusalem 2013 (Hebrew) [Hebrew title: אדמה אהובה].

If there may be any questions about her qualifications as an author, I would cordially advise that an opinion be given by a Wikipedia Administrator who may live in Israel.Davidbena (talk) 03:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

You have again ignored advice at ANI: After reading "I found no academic credentials online" there are only two reasonable responses: post evidence of academic credentials, or say "I see what you mean, sorry for raising this". Johnuniq (talk) 05:30, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
There's little available in English. In Hebrew "Heally Gross" is "היאלי גרוס" (first name spelling is a highly non-standard one) - which should be useful for anyone checking this out. I'm at this point unsure - it would also depend on the publisher of the book(s), I haven't uncovered a bio of Gross yet - though she has written quite a bit and also lectures (e.g. at The Museum of the Jewish People at Beit Hatfutsot) - there is quite a web presence in Hebrew on "היאלי גרוס" - but I haven't managed to filter out all the speaking engagements and find something meaningful yet.Icewhiz (talk) 05:41, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, the Hebrew spelling really helps. I can find much more of her work on WorldCat now, but nothing to alleviate my concerns about her writing as a source. So while we still know really nothing about Gross's credentials, I also don't see that any of her entries in WorldCat have publishers' names attached. Some items have an author listed as the publisher, and others are said to have been published by "Israel". It's possible that whomever is uploading these entries to WorldCat is having a language difficulty and doesn't know what that field means, or it could be that everything actually is self-published. WorldCat shows that Gross's work is held in remarkably few libraries - the most distributed book, a work of fiction, is held by four - which is very unusual for academic work. Her work also isn't even listed for sale by either Steimatzky or Tzomet Sfarim, the largest book sellers in Israel. All of these things point to an amateur academic who self-publishes. If Davidbena or someone else can present evidence that Gross is a recognized expert, or that her work is from a reputable academic publisher, I have an open mind. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:04, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
The publisher for these two is "ישראלים" (translation - Israelis - which would explain the publisher "Israel" Someguy1221 has seen) - about page here (Hebrew). It seems this publisher mainly or exclusively publishes Gross's work - books here - though some have been commissioned/distributed by regional councils. The publisher would not confer reliability here. I will note that Gross might be considered an expert local historian (per what I do see on the web - she does seem to be respected by others) - but I'm undecided here (need to see an appropriate bio and 3rd party reference to her - I am seeing lots of speaking engagements which is an indication this might be the case, but... doesn't say it is the case).Icewhiz (talk) 07:16, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Per the publisher/herself - she has a BA and is a qualified tour guide. It seems the publisher/herself published 3 local histories (two of which are above) - though there might be more as she claims she did local histories on 20 settlements, a fiction book set in the Israeli Negev desert, and a history book about Dogs in warfare/Search and rescue dog throughout Zionist history.Icewhiz (talk) 07:27, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment: On the talk page of the article in question, Davidbena states that he has Heally Gross's email address. Since Davidbena is also the editor pushing for the inclusion of this author who is borderline at best, I sense there is some sort of COI involved. Softlavender (talk) 05:56, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment 2: I agree with Icewhiz that the publisher(s) of the books in question is key. Why is the publisher(s) not listed? Also, why no page numbers? What are the IBSNs of the books? Softlavender (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Unreliable. Based on Someguy1221's research, Gross is an amateur self-published writer whose works are, basically, not held by libraries or booksellers. Softlavender (talk) 06:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
I strongly urge editors here to not be hasty in labeling Heally Gross' books as irrelevant or not on par with academic standards for reliable sources. Her books are catalogued in the Hebrew University library (as you can see here), but if I might make this one observation, Heally Gross's seminal work, Adamah Ahuvah (translated as: "Beloved Land"), does indeed have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, as most of her quotes are taken from historical war records contained at the Yad Tabenkin (Tabenkin Memorial) in Ramat Ef'al. Their web-page (in Hebrew) is seen here. See also a list of their collections here: Tzur, Ze'ev (1980). "The Archive of the Kibbutz Hameuhad Movement at Yad Tabenkin". Cathedra: For the History of Eretz Israel and Its Yishuv. 14: 203–206. Retrieved 26 July 2018 – via JSTOR.. Bear in mind that their field of expertise is in the History of the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel) and its "Yishuv", meaning, Jewish settlement during the Ottoman period and during the period of the British Mandate over Palestine. One of the criterion for identifying Reliable sources is that her material can be fact checked, per WP:QUESTIONED. User:Softlavender, without actually looking at this work, has taken a hard line. User:Icewhiz who has more knowledge about this important work has taken a more conciliatory approach.Davidbena (talk) 10:37, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
As for User:Softlavender's question about publisher, the books' inner cover lists the Publishing House as: "Israelim" - whose web-page is www.Israel-im.co.il . Three of her books' publications (including Adamah Ahuvah) have been funded by the Mateh Yehuda Regional Council here, in Israel, and freely distributed among the Jewish collective farms and settlements in the Jerusalem / Adullam / Beit Lachish region.Davidbena (talk) 10:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
The "publisher", as Softlavender ALREADY pointed out, is Gross herself. The books are self-published. --Calton | Talk 11:11, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
That is not entirely correct, as Heally Gross' books were published (funded) in conjunction with the Mateh Yehuda Regional Council and distributed freely by them to the Jewish settlements. And even if you should say that the works are "self-published," according to WP:IS, "Material available from sources that are self-published, primary sources, or biased because of a conflict of interest can play a role in writing an article, but it must be possible to source the information that establishes the subject's real-world notability to independent, third-party sources. Reliance on independent sources ensures that an article can be written from a balanced, disinterested viewpoint rather than from the person's own viewpoint" (END QUOTE). Heally Gross' Adamah Ahuvah ("Beloved Land") definitely meets this criterion, where all her citations are supported by works treating on Israel's War of Independence, both in published works and in War memorial collections which she so deftly has researched. Again, I urge editors here to soberly consider the vital information that will be lost from Operation Ha-Har if the source material is removed.Davidbena (talk) 12:07, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Davidbena - you'd do well to either find a replacement source, or to establish Gross's credentials (though even if you do - we still would be dealing with self-published work by an expert local historian - which would not be a good source). The only reason I'm holding off from saying a flat no here is that I have an inkling she might have some recognition as a local historian - though even if she does - that would still be a very weak source. If you have the book - you could perhaps use it for citation mining - and cite the source Heally is citing instead of Heally herself. As for the information itself that is challenged in Ha-Har - it seems relevant and correct - however you do want to pass WP:V via a good source here.Icewhiz (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

David, a local government commissioning a work by a little known travel guide for a battle from 1948 in a war that is extensively covered in scholarly works is not a reliable source, full stop. WP:IS is an essay. WP:RS however is a content guideline. And what that says is Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book and claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media are largely not acceptable. That you can find this book in a library does not make it reliable. That it covers something that you find vitally important likewise does not make it reliable. If the material in question actually is important to note in an encyclopedia article then you should be able to find it covered in any of the literally hundreds of books published by a university press that deal with this war. nableezy - 17:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

That is not entirely correct, as Heally Gross' books were published (funded) in conjunction with the Mateh Yehuda Regional Council and distributed freely by them...
No, it is ENTIRELY correct: where Gross got the money to self-publish her books is irrelevant to their being self-published. They're self-published. --Calton | Talk 10:51, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
User:Icewhiz, thanks. I just received a reply on my e-mail from Heally Gross and she has acknowledged to me that she does indeed have a University degree in the "History of the people of Israel." Anyone wishing to contact her personally may do so at the following e-mail address: heallyg@gmail.com . With that said, it is the humble view of this editor that there ought to be a mechanism in place which keeps editors from making POV-based disruptive edits to historical texts, without first discussing the matter in the article's Talk-Page. My familiarity with User:Huldra goes back to January 2015, where we have interacted on various levels, in topics relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If for any reason, may God forbid, that this vital information is deleted from the Operation Ha-Har article, it will be a grave loss for western audiences seeking to better understand the events of that war, but not a great loss for Israeli audiences. I implore editors here to be more circumspect in their decision with respect to this author, Heally Gross, and her contributions to our overall knowledge. By the way, I do have Heally's books, which I purchased from her at 100 Israeli shekels apiece.Davidbena (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
A BA degree would not establish credentials here.Icewhiz (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
She did not say to me which degree she holds in her area of expertise. If you'd like, you can write her and ask her. If worse comes to worst, I will take your advice and use her works for citation mining - and cite the source Heally is citing instead of Heally herself. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 18:44, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Are you not listening, Davidbena? No one—at the disruptive ANI you initiated or the article talk page—has considered Huldra’s edit disruptive. The fact the only “evidence” you have to legitimize Gross’s reliability is an e-mail spells out a huge conflict-of-interest. Find a better source that is appropriate for the encyclopedia—as several editors have advised you to do.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:35, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Obviously, they have not worked as closely with User:Huldra as I have. I can avouch that I know her better than they do, and I have seen a clear tendency for POV editing. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 18:41, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
(ec) Healy's contact info is freely available on the web - that's not an indication of COI - editors may mail sources/subjects. David - if you have the book and it has citations - use the citations in the book (assuming they are good RS).Icewhiz (talk) 18:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Davidbena, you have at various times said that I am a Palestinian Arab, or that I am married to an Arab, that a person with a Bachelor degree has more academic credentials than me...none of which is true. So yeah, you know me soooo well.</throws up her arms in despair>
And http://whois.domaintools.com/israel-im.co.il gives: descr: heally gross. (Thanks, User:Softlavender!)
And as Nableezy said above: there are countless sources for the 1948 war (I think I have more than a dozen books about it myself, even though the war is outside my main area of interest (which is pre 1948 history)), there is no way Heally Gross can be considered WP:RS.
As for me being disruptive, yeah, for Davidbena I am....just a week ago, I removed another of his sources, namely Joseph Tabenkin (see the top of this page): an IDF commander in the 1948 war, and later an engineer. And I promise I will keep being "disruptive", and keep removing non WP:RS material, Huldra (talk) 21:31, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
What a man becomes after his military career shouldn't matter to us. One does not need a PhD to write about his experiences or travels. As for your willingness to be "disruptive," using your own words, well I guess we'll just have to keep-up these dispute resolutions until something is resolved. By the way, I never said that you were married to an Arab, but only surmised that "perhaps" you may be.Davidbena (talk) 21:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Christ, Davidbena why did you even “surmise” Huldra was/is married to an Arab? Why was it any of your business? The only way this will be “resolved” if you continue making frivolous drama board threads is with a block or t-ban—for you.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:16, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
May God forbid. There is nothing wrong with being married to an Arab, and, indeed, I made that clear to her in that post. I was only concerned then, as I am now, about User:Huldra's POV-based editing.Davidbena (talk) 22:21, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Wow. How do people in the P-I area tolerate this level of nonsense? It can only be Davidbena's breathtaking naivety that make people look the other way. However this level of cluelessness is not sustainable in such a sensitive topic and a TBAN is the least that should be applied. Johnuniq (talk) 22:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, editors in the P-I area (that is; the not so pro-Israeli editors) have mostly developed a very thick skin. See the death/rape-threaths on my user-page, amusing names, etc. Davidbena's preconceptions about me is a very small irritant in comparison. I am actually 1000 times more worried about his preconceptions about Palestinian history... We met on Talk:Bayt Nattif back in 2015 (he had expanded the article, leaving out all history between 12 CE and 1948 CE), and at that time he said he knew "absolutely nothing about" about Arab/Palestinian history. I have actually been quite impressed with the way he looks up sources...(Even when I feel I have to batter facts into him...). Though.....lately he has used several absolutely awful sources on some of the most controversial articles in the P-I area...sigh. Heally Gross isn't the last one. We seem to become regulars at this board.....a damn waste of time, IMO, Huldra (talk) 23:45, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Based on what is above and what I can find myself, Heally Gross is someone with a BA degree who qualified as a tour guide and now publishes books through a family publishing company. All of which indicates that she should not be used as a source. Zerotalk 23:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Although I do not know the extent of Heally Gross' education, only that she has a University degree in the "History of the people of Israel," can someone here please tell me why a book published by an author carrying at least a Bachelor of Arts degree, and which book deals in her specific area of university studies, is an unreliable source?Davidbena (talk) 00:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Because David, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that when it can uses scholarship for its sources. And scholarship means works published by peer reviewed journals and books published by university presses, often times by people who as their profession are academics working at the most prestigious universities on the planet. Not some tour guide around Jerusalem. You are seemingly oblivious to the utter and complete lack of self-awareness you demonstrate when you complain of POV-editing, but that really is a topic for another forum. But your comments about Huldra are both misinformed and misplaced in this forum. nableezy - 04:56, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Please excuse my ignorance, but I do think my question was legitimate. No reason to resort to ad hominem attacks on a person who is trying to do his utmost best here.Davidbena (talk) 12:47, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
To elaborate slightly on what nableezy has said, Wikipedia in areas like science and history, reports what the academic consensus states. This is established by using high quality reliable sources. The best sources are tertiary sources which by their nature report the existing academic consensus. Secondary sources are next, these generally need to be published in peer-reviewed journals and even then, things like how often they are cited elsewhere is significant on establishing a source's reliablity. In the case of books, the publisher's experience and reputation in the subject area as well as that of the author are important in establishing credibility and, of course, how often and by whom the book is cited. Primary sources, which includes self published books, can only be used in very limited circumstances. If the book is by an acknowledged expert in the field, then it may be used with care, but that hardly includes the writings of the holder of an undergraduate degree, no matter what the subject of that degree. - Nick Thorne talk 06:53, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
David... having a BA degree is not considered enough to make someone an expert in their subject area. Most of your fellow Wikipedia editors have BAs or BSs (and many have MAs or MSs)... we certainly don’t consider ourselves to be experts. Blueboar (talk) 13:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Question: User:Icewhiz, and User:Nick Thorne, in Heally Gross' book, Adamah Ahuvah (2013), there is a section where she interviews an elderly Arab woman from a certain region affected by the 1948 Arab Israeli War and who remembers fleeing from her village as a young lady. In the interview, she recounts events from that troubling period. Can Heally Gross' book be used to cite excerpts from her interview with this elderly Arab woman? If not, how does this differ from citing an interview from a newspaper, or an interview from the web-page Palestine-Rembered.com?Davidbena (talk) 18:40, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
As there is no publisher, there is an issue of lack of editorial oversight/vetting - which would not be an issue for a reputable newspaper, reputable publisher or Gross herself at an established publisher. (So what is lacking is someone looking over the author's shoulder and verifying lack of fabrication - though such verification is never foolproof). Such an interview would be PRIMARY. As for Palestine-Rembered.com - interviews there would probably fail on the same grounds (and maybe a few more) Gross fails on - but I have not looked into it - you would have to bring something specific (if Palestine Remembered is quoting another source - that's different from their own content for instance).Icewhiz (talk) 18:50, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Icewhiz puts it well (Gosh, I agree with Icewhiz(!)). AFAIK, not a single interview from the pal.rem site is used on Wikipedia. I would compare Gross with the many hundreds of so-called ”village books” written about the Palestinian villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus; again, I have never cited directly from them (For two good reasons, other than that they are not RS: I don't have a copy of any of them...and in any case they are virtually all in Arabic, which I don't read). However, an academic did a study based on these village books, and published a book about them on Stanford University Press (the book co-won the Albert Hourani Book Award). In this book she sometimes quotes from interviews etc with villagers, if so: then that can be included, see eg Bayt Thul. Likewise, if, in the future, someone did an academic study of the interviews at the pal.rem site (not inconceivable...); again, that could be included. Huldra (talk) 21:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate everyone's sincere and constructive advice here, on this thread. Can I please ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close this discussion on Wikipedia? I believe that it has fully run its course. Thanks.Davidbena (talk) 05:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Does historical fiction establish notability?

Estela Sáenz de Méndez (1 January 1982). María de las Islas: novela histórica. Editorial Latinoamericana.

Silvia Plager; Elsa Fraga Vidal (1 March 2012). Malvinas, la ilusión y la pérdida: Luis Vernet y María Sáez, una historia de amor. Penguin Random House Grupo Editorial Argentina. ISBN 978-950-07-3809-5.

The above two works are works of historical fiction and refer to an individual María Sáez de Vernet, who was the spouse of Luis Vernet. David Eppstein is arguing that mention in fictional novels establishes notability.

Personally this doesn't gel with my interpretation of WP:RS but bringing it here for a second opinion and inviting David to explain his logic. WCMemail 00:08, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

WCM has been badgering participants in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/María Sáez de Vernet discussion at my talk page, at User talk:John Cummings, and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red, no doubt among others. I have already explained at two of those places why I think that despite being unusable as reliable sources (the only possible concern of relevance at this noticeboard) these books help contribute to the notability of the subject. Taking the dispute here smacks of forum shopping to me. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:16, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Are they a historical figure? Are they clearly identified as a historical figure, not a fictional invention in those texts? If so, then Dumas might have something to say.
Also, despite WP:NOTINHERITED, are they presented as notable as themselves, or as part of a notable married partnership? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:27, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Its worth noting that in the original article before I edited it contains the quote:
Is actually sourced from:

Estela Sáenz de Méndez (1 January 1982). María de las Islas: novela histórica. Editorial Latinoamericana.

But apparently when I try and engage with editors to explain this, this is badgering. In answer to the question, the person involved is only known really as the spouse of Luis Vernet. Her diary has been used in some narratives as part of Argentine claims over the Falkland Islands but this is unrelated to the individual. Malvinan as a word didn't exist in 1829, its a modern invention since 1947. WCMemail 00:34, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Removing inappropriate material is not badgering. Starting an AfD because the article had some material that needed removing may be a bad idea, but it is also not badgering. But going to a bunch of different AfDs from Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Article alerts and plastering big warnings across the AfD that they had an automated project alert on them, when this is standard practice for most WikiProjects and AfDs, merely because some project participants started participating in a project-related AfD, starts to rise to the level of badgering. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:51, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Its interesting that shortly after my AFD was listed, 10 people from that project turned up voting keep. Since I did that on other AFD, there has not been a re-occurrence. Thats not badgering. It would be appreciate if you would stop the bad faith accusations, I'm getting rather irritated. WCMemail 14:22, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
  • My 2 cents - Generally coverage in historical fiction does not establish notability of the historical figure - though it might establish notability for the fictional figure (just as other fictional figures are notable) and in some cases may be an indication that the figure is likely to be notable - however, one must note that sometimes historical fiction / alternate history takes very minor historical figures that nearly nothing is known about - and develops them purposefully (so as not to alter, in the novel, well known historical facts while providing room for the author's plot) into full fledged characters (in which case the fictional character might be notable, but this literary fabrication does not make the historical figure notable).Icewhiz (talk) 07:34, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
    • "Generally coverage in historical fiction does not establish notability of the historical figure" My view is the opposite on this subject. If a historical figure has not attracted the attention of historical fiction writers, he/she is probably not significant enough to have an article. Many historical figures owe much of their fame to being regularly featured in historical fiction for the last two or three centuries. Dimadick (talk) 09:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
I would say is, as Dimadick says if someone had not noted them they would not appear. But by the same token it might just be they had an interesting name, or the writer just picked a name that he did not know was real. Thus I have to lean towards no they do not in and off themselves confer notability, but that may well indicate that there are other sources that could.Slatersteven (talk) 09:12, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Look at Titus Pullo (Rome character) and Lucius Vorenus (Rome character) as examples (in this case we do have an article - Vorenus and Pullo). In some cases - fiction writers purposefully choose the main hero, or heros for plot arcs, based off of a figure that might only have a brief mention (e.g. one-liner - even briefer than this example) in historical documents - the fiction writing doing this so that their plot does not conflict with established history (so all plot elements that are not historically established are on fictional characters or semi-fictional characters about which nothing is known beyond their brief mention). In some cases - there can even be serial use of the fictional character.Icewhiz (talk) 09:26, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
  • A work of fiction in which previously obscure historical character plays a role can establish notability. Provided that the work of historical fiction is notable, and that publication of the work of fiction and the character's role in it generates secondary coverage. Note for example Angelica Hamilton, who has an article supported by coverage of her life generated by a recent work of historical fiction Hamilton (musical).E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:14, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I would say that appearing as a character in a work of fiction can supplement a historical person's notability... but it does not establish or create that notability. That said, the fictional character that is based upon that person may become notable on its own (as a fictional character). Blueboar (talk) 12:49, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I generally agree with the sentiments that the 'historical fiction' does not create notability, but it might draw attention to non-fiction sources that existed before the fictional creation (in which case there was a probability of 'Notablity' before the fiction) and/or the fiction may cause non-fiction sources to then publish on the historical person (in which case the 'Notability' arises or enhances after the fiction). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:51, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I would definitely default that the existence of historical fiction about a person/topic doesn't mean that person/topic is notable; instead, we should hope that a good piece of historical fiction will lead to more coverage of the historical person/topic. For example, Adrian Cronauer would likely never have been notable if Good Morning, Vietnam wasn't a critically praised film that led into people looking into his life. --Masem (t) 16:04, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Is TechCrunch a reliable source?

Specifically, should an article written by TechCrunch staff (not contributors) be considered a reliable source when assessing a subject's notability?

At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BTCJam, the company has coverage from two potentially reliable sources: a chapter in a Springer Science+Business Media publication (reliable), and a TechCrunch staff article (disputed). The TechCrunch article is more than a passing mention, but does simple reporting without significant analysis. The author is a TechCrunch editor. How would you evaluate this source? — Newslinger talk 22:31, 2 August 2018 (UTC)​​​​​​​​

Do you mean for the purpose of AfD voting, or for the purpose of sourcing content? For the purpose of sourcing content it should be fine; it's focused on the tech industry and has editorial control. For the purpose of AfD? It likely doesn't meet the standards of WP:CORPDEPTH. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:34, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
It meets the standards of WP:V but fails the requirements of WP:N and more specifically WP:ORGIND. It stopped being seriously considered for notability purposes in AfDs around mid-to-late 2016. Like most trade press, the stories are dependent primarily on sourcing from the company itself, and there is little to no editorial control beyond making sure they aren’t printing patent lies (and then it’s more through using qualifiers than actual fact checking.) RSN isn’t the place to determine whether or not something meets the requirements of WP:N and WP:NCORP: that is AfD, and the community consensus on TechCrunch as a source for notability purposes has been pretty consistent for a few years now. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:49, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable, that staff-composed news articles in trade press, without a specified person by-line, in particular those that are raw fact pieces with little to no analytical content, would not count toward notability in the Corp Depth analysis. This would apply to quite a lot of content which is on the cusp of churnalism, a term I became acquainted with only recently. I might make a note in WP:CORPDEPTH if there is not already a comparable note there (need to look at it again to check). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

I should have been more clear here. The article names a TechCrunch editor in the byline, instead of using a generic "TechCrunch staff" tag. However, while the article does give an overview of the company, it looks like little to no investigative research was done.​ — Newslinger talk 17:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.​ --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:08, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, generally speaking TechCrunch is a reliable source. Yes, it's a valid source that can be used (in conjunction to other sources) to establish that the topic meets WP:GNG since it's an entire article (i.e. significant coverage) by a reliable source independent of its topic. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:01, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
TechCrunch, like most trade press, is not intellectually independent of the topic, and thus fails WP:ORGIND, which is the standard here. Byline or not doesn’t matter. This has been the consistent finding in AfDs for ages. The direct quote from WP:NCORP is: there is a presumption against the use of coverage in trade magazines to establish notability as businesses frequently make use of these publications to increase their visibility.TonyBallioni (talk) 04:34, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

PopCrush

I noticed this discussion from 2012 when looking for verification of another source and wanted to open a new discussion. PopCrush is a subsidiary of Townsquare Media, which operates about 320 radio stations in the United States. The previous argument against certifying PopCrush as a reliable source was that editors could not find any evidence of editorial oversight. While I can't cite such, per say, I know as someone that spent 15+ years working in the radio industry that Townsquare heavily vets their employees in all divisions these days and has a significant online / interactive management team that would have oversight of PopCrush. StrikerforceTalk 18:09, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

CarbonBrief

The CarbonBrief website states on their about page, "In 2018, Carbon Brief was “highly commended” for its investigative journalism by the Royal Statistical Society. In 2017, Carbon Brief won the “Best Specialist Site for Journalism” category at the prestigious Online Media Awards." The question for RS comes up involving this edit, with reasoning, "replace non-RS blog from advocacy group with tag CN", by editor NewsAndEventsGuy. Since the source seems to be based on empirical data, and often cited in the mainstream media, ie. here (qz), here (ecowatch), here (Washington Post), here (NYT), and also fetched by GoogleNews, it appears as a reliable source to me. prokaryotes (talk) 15:09, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

So what do third party sources say about this?Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The Royal Statistical Society did give them a 'high commendation' this year, although it was for specific piece of journalism rather than a blanket approval of the site. Having said that, their editorial board looks highly competent, composed of experience journalists and academics at well-respected institutions. They are clearly not just a blog, I think they'd be reliable for this. Girth Summit (talk) 15:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
An article in The Drum, noted, "Carbon Brief’s model is high quality science journalism". prokaryotes (talk) 15:45, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
A 2013 NYT article refers to, "a British climate and energy news blog". prokaryotes (talk) 15:46, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
CarbonBrief. prokaryotes (talk) 16:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
PNNL cites CB as, "a U.K.-based climate and energy journalism website". prokaryotes (talk) 16:23, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Seems pukka then.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Note that WP:Blogs as sources is a failed policy proposal. To review applicable policy.... CarbonBrief is an RS when talking about themself or we are saying they said something. (See WP:ABOUTSELF). Otherwise it may or may not be an RS for article content of general topics. The relevant policy there is WP:BLOGS which says in relevant part
Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.[8]Please do note that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources. Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent reliable sources.
Yes, we could continue gathering evidence and debating if the expert threshold is met in this case. BUT.... (A) as the text of the rule urges, its better to not ask eds to take time for that when there are other straightforward reliable secondary sources that say the same thing. (B) Even if a small group of eds agree today that it is RS, I've often seen new people appear at articles and start deleting self published sources and they will not know about this discussion. For longterm maintenence using WP:BLOGS when there are "normal" sources is dumb. (C) The OP and I are both regulars on the climate pages, a topic area where article text of this sort (2018 N hemisphere heat wave 5x more likely due to global warming) will be greeted by skeptics as an exceptional claim. This is another reason its extra-dumb to try to work through the expert-Blog exception rule instead of just using normal sources - doing so might promote the expert blog site, but invites future conflict and drama. Use the normal sources, and the purposes of WP:ARBCC in preventing drama are best supported.

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Apparently, the cited rule is met "produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", since Zeke Hausfather has published several studies in reliable third-party publications. https://scholar.google.de/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=zeke+hausfather&btnG=&oq=Zeke+Haus In regards to your concerns of the edit about the heat wave, their article is based on this cited study by the World Weather Attribution consortium, hence your argument that it is self-published is void. prokaryotes (talk) 16:49, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Published studies of CB editor Robert McSweeney also establishes RS per your cited rule. prokaryotes (talk) 16:54, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Bottomline: CarbonBrief is a website such as Skeptical Science, or RealClimate, but with a more professional journalism scope. prokaryotes (talk) 16:56, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Reliable for factual analysis, no real opinion on any opinion or colour pieces but this is not especially controversial - if anyone really objects they can WP:ATT it. Guy (Help!) 17:00, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Winning an award should matter, but gets ignored for other cases (see the Daily Mail RfC for example). Being cited by the Washington Post could matter, but this wasn't the paper it was the paper's "Capital Weather Gang" blog. Being mentioned at PNNL doesn't matter because it was about CarbonBrief interviewing their staff member -- would they in such circumstances be likely to say it's nothing? As for the suggestion that qz.com and ecowatch.com are "mainstream media", opinions might differ. Evidence that the organization (or blog if one accepts the NYT term) has a "reputation for fact-checking" appears to be lacking. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Okay more mainstream sources then, Forbes, BBC, The Guardian, HuffPost. prokaryotes (talk) 17:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Snopes, AlterNet, The Guardian prokaryotes (talk) 17:20, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Media Matters prokaryotes (talk) 17:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
In those sources Daisy Dunne who works for Carbon Brief refers to Carbon Brief, "contributors" to Forbes and HuffPost (both of which have had hundreds|thousands of paid|unpaid contributors) refer to Carbon Brief, and supposedly this is "more mainstream sources" to go along with the earlier claim that ecowatch.com and qz.com are mainstream sources. As before, opinions may differ. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:27, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Alright, the use of this study is still problematic, but that's a subject for article talk. But just for a hint... the text to be supported says the northern Europe heat wave is up to 5x more likely due to global warming. The study says only 2x in Nederlands and for scandinavia it was increased but they could not quantify by how much. So with the full context in mind, the talking point "up to five times more likely" across all of N Europe is problematic. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:21, 3 August 2018 (UTC) PS In my edit sum just now i think I stupidly said "close". I meant I withdraw objection to reliability in this instance. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

We have to sort this out now, also because the Wikipedia search gives over 3000 results when searching for CarbonBrief. prokaryotes (talk) 17:25, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

FYI, I did a rewrite at the source of the dispute using normal reliable secondary sources plus a link to the original "preliminary study". This avoided the "Up to five times more likely" EVERYWHERE (though the study didn't say that) problem created by the rhetorical headline at Carbon Brief. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:21, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Okay, but there isn't really a dispute, this section serves to establish CB as a RS. The confusion about twice or five times, is because the study refers to factors and ratios. prokaryotes (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Just to be clear, its a case by case basis and as the policy says, if the info you want to support is really important there will be quality mainstream secondary sources without having to resort to expert-advocate blogs. Staying away from them also lessens the appearance of editorial POV too. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:44, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
CB publishes clear, data-driven science explainers, interviews, analysis and factchecks, not exactly classic advocating. CB provides quality content and expertise, therefore mainstream media often cites them. On the contrary you have often articles published by news editors who are not experts on a topic, which can result in confusing coverage. Hence, why we currently witness such a rise of factcheck sites. prokaryotes (talk) 18:55, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
In their own words, they advocate for understanding of the science of climate change and policy response. This isn't a judgmental statement, just something to bear in mind when evaluating the best sources when this comes up again. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Okay, and thanks for pointing this out. prokaryotes (talk) 22:39, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

website Resilience

The website "Resilience" looks like an environmentalist blog to me. What do others think? It's referenced a lot at article Doomer NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

It belongs to Post Carbon Institute, and its aim is to promote transition from fossil fuels. The articles I read do not seem to be of any academic value. It is hardly a reliable source. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:30, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Goat Canyon Trestle#Inaccuracies

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Goat Canyon Trestle#Inaccuracies. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:30, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Affinity magazine

It doesn't seem like Affinity Magazine has been mentioned on RS noticeboard before. Does this count as a reliable/significant source? Would like feedback before I vote on the AfD. originalmesshow u doin that busta rhyme? 01:18, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Originalmess The website belongs to Affinity Magazine, a “by teens, for teens, always controversial” site. Reading this, I doubt it is a reliable source. It seems to be an online platform where teens write articles. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Oof! Thanks! originalmesshow u doin that busta rhyme? 02:50, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

The Monthly

Digital Spy's reliability in general

Psychology Today piece?

Paul Rassinier

Crayola crayon colors

Har’el: Palmach brigade in Jerusalem, Zvi Dror (ed. Nathan Shoḥam), Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishers: Benei Barak 2005,

Avi Shemmi (Schmidt), Friends Speak About Jimmy (5th edition), HaKibbutz HaMeuhad: Tel Aviv 1958, p. 200 [Hebrew title: חברים מספרים על ג'ימי] (Yad Tabenkin Archives, Testimony of Danny Agmon, 16-12/52/194)

References to songs, images, how-tos and similar on YouTube, Vimeo, a Web page and similar

is Popbuzz.com reliable?

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Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania

THEM Anime Reviews reliability

Formalizing the addition of the Washington Post to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources

TheChels.info

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Which of the sources on this google book result considered reliable?

Library of Congress Name Authority File

Source can't be accessed from the EU

Subject of an article critiquing his bio on YouTube as a source

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Reality TV World (realitytvworld.com)

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Sputnik (news agency)

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Is the use of a word in a Glasgow newspaper an RS to show that the word is used in Glasgow?

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HG101 possibly "laundering" unsourced Japanese Wikipedia info?

alien-ufo-research.com

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Talk:List of states with limited recognition#New source for adding Donetsk to the list

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