Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 248

I'd like to hear others' thoughts on my advice below. A discussion may provide enlightenment and help me refine my views, as well as getting others to think about this subject.

Keep in mind that even dubious sources will occasionally publish accurate information, but when that happens, find that same information in mainstream RS and use them as the source.

When normally unreliable sources make an exception and get it right, we have a dilemma:

1. Should they should be rewarded by using them as a source in that instance?
2. Should they be used, because when the adversary agrees with facts uncomfortable to them, their testimony is worth more than testimony from the normal allies of said facts?

The second applies, not for documentation of ordinary information, but for very controversial information where their honesty comes as a surprise. They could be included as a source with other sources, but not alone, sort of a "here are the facts, and even the normal enemy of these facts admits it" situation. In a court of law, the testimony of a hostile witness is powerful, and so it is here. The list and ordering of sources might look like this: ABC, Guardian, New York Times, Breitbart (last). The determination of what to do with such a source will have to be a consensus decision.

For example, The Daily Caller can surprise one. Like Fox News, which rarely says anything unfavorable to Trump, they will occasionally do it. This is a good example: "Lanny Davis Suggests Michael Cohen Has Information About Campaign-Related Hacking."^[1] Mainstream sources also covered it.^[2][3] Later Davis tried to retract what he said. Oops! Trump must not have been happy with him for spilling the beans.

Bret Baier, chief political anchor at Fox, grudgingly admitted Trump wasn't truthful during an interview on Fox & Friends: "I mean, the president's rollout of explaining this has not been clear. The Washington Post says it's a flat out lie in their fact-checking. I think you could look back at the statements and clearly he was not 100 percent truthful as he laid that out. You've got his answer to Ainsley Earhardt, saying he knew later on."^[4] Bret's hedging is evident by saying "not 100 percent truthful", instead of the more honest "completely false statements" or, as Shep Smith put it, "not telling the truth".

Shepard Smith, who serves as Fox's chief news anchor and managing editor of the breaking news division, also noted the incident: "Remember, the president first said he did not know about the hush money payments in advance.... Now we know the president was not telling the truth."^[4] Shep Smith is one of the few at Fox who regularly points out Trump's dishonesty and criticizes fellow Fox employees for their dishonest coverage.

BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 18:42, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the idea that a group of diverse reliable sources is better than a group of similar reliable sources, but this doesn't justify the use of bad sources such as Breitbart. It would be better to use CNN and Fox News, for example, since both are generally accepted as mainstream reliable sources that may show some bias. –dlthewave ☎ 21:52, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

If a source is so unreliable that we can only tell that something it's saying is true when we have reliable sources saying the same thing, we should just use those reliable sources. A source is either reliable for a given claim (and a source can be reliable for claims about what its own opinions are even if it's not reliable for claims about others due to e.g. its lack of fact-checking or tendency to misrepresent things), or it isn't, IMO. -sche (talk) 00:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The top of this section says "dubious sources will occasionally publish accurate information", but who decides when this is the case? Do we want some Scientologist deciding this? Or a paid editor? The rules have to apply to bad editors as well as good editors, so we can't just allow an editor to arbitrarily decide that a dubious source is publishing accurate information this time. So you need another, more reliable source to verify the information, so why not just use that? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:46, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Bingo! Guy Macon, that's exactly my point, at least one of my points. Only when multiple RS confirm that a normally unreliable source "got it right" can one make that determination. I personally don't like to use unreliable sources, except when there is a real "necessity" to do so, and such occasions do exist. Some of my thoughts above are possibly good advice, and the rest is brainstorming to be worked on. That's why I posted it. Thanks for your comments. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@-sche: It is possible that policy should be amended to reflect that 'best practice'. Maybe something like: low quality sources, as determined by a consensus at RSN, should not be used in conjunction with more reliable sources because they are not necessary and just clutter the article. As it is I am not aware of any current policy that conveys this 'best practice', though it is apparent there is demand for one. Endercase (talk) 16:21, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Eh, in my view existing policies and guidelines cover this, inasmuch as WP:V requires that sources be reliable. Most editors seem to be pretty good about removing unnecessary citations, especially of sources that aren't reliable — Talk:PragerU has some examples — just as well as they remove article-body prose that's off-topic. -sche (talk) 21:00, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

• I generally avoid falling back on simple heuristics for complicated issues like this, but in this case, I'm afraid the simple heuristic is best. If we can verify the claim through an RS, then we should just use the RS. Our goal isn't to encourage nominally unreliable sources to become more reliable so they can be used on WP, but to present reliable information to the reader. There's also an issue which you yourself pointed out: If we used Baier as a source, that source would not support the statement "Trump was dishonest" or "Trump lied" or "Trump did not tell the truth," all of which are true (which we can see from the RSes). Instead, it supports wordings like "Trump wasn't entirely honest," or "Trump's statement was deceptive," or "Trump didn't tell the whole truth," even though only the middle one is true (though that particular phrasing itself is confusing and implies something untrue; that Trump was partially correct).

The only exception I can think of to this is attributed statements. If Breitbart admitted Trump had lied, that would be noteworthy and thus due, but we wouldn't use it to support a factual claim that Trump lied, but rather to add an attributed statement. Because what's due about that is that Breitbart said it; not what, exactly, Breitbart said.

I understand that it's a complicated situation, I really do. But I honestly think that it's only going to end up being damaging to the project if we start allowing unreliably-sourced information. It presents a beachhead for POV pushing editors to start pushing for more unreliable sources from. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

User:MjolnirPants, "...but rather to add an attributed statement". Yes, that's the only justification for this situation I can think of, as I mention above, otherwise I am not at all pushing for using unreliable sources. I'm not suggesting any changes to policy, just doing some brainstorming among those who know this stuff. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:08, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I might be tempted to use Shep Smith, but not Baier. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I know. I'm not accusing you of trying to wedge in bad sources, I'm just giving my thoughts. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

See, WP:BESTSOURCES, and it seems like bad rhetoric to try to use maybe/ok/kind-of-sources to make some other kind of implied statement, generally it should just be, 'this is the good info - this is the best source'.Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:54, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

• If no top-flight RS is available, one could always do what reputable newspapers do in this situation, and evaluate the source right in the text: "According to the usually (sometimes/occasionally/not too)-reliable source Etonnez-moi, Liechtenstein landed a shuttlecraft on Mars on Thursday." As long as it's not in Wikipedia's voice, it doesn't even have to be accurate. Mathglot (talk) 05:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

As long as we don't give undue weight in the process. Also, we should still avoid perpetuating inaccurate information, even if it's not in Wikipedia's voice if at all possible. If we want to quote a source in this context as saying something inaccurate, we should make sure context is given. Waggie (talk) 17:06, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#EmDrive again might be of interest. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't lean too hard into the random departments the author is said to have been in - that could simply be a CPC member getting bounced around between postings with sufficient prestige that a PhD would look good in them but with insufficient specialization for it to matter what the PhD is actually in. That said, the journal he was published in doesn't look super-reliable on its own anyway. It's not often cited, and I don't... think... it's juried. Simonm223 (talk) 19:34, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Georges Malbrunot is a French journalist working for Le Figaro. I would like to know if this blog source is reliable enough for the following?

Portion: On 30 May 2013, Georges Malbrunot of Le Figaro wrote that two members of the organization were found dead in Idlib, citing a "European parliamentarian in contact with the anti-government rebels".

Article: People's Mujahedin of Iran

Can it be considered reliable as per WP:BLOGS where it reads: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications"? Regards. --Mhhossein ^talk 10:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

• Yes. Le Figaro is one of the greatest French newspapers, and his article on fr.wiki is convincing. wumbolo ^^^ 11:53, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I've been noticing an increasing number of occurrences of [http://www.awardsandwinners.com/category/nandi-awards/nandi-award-for-best-first-film-of-a-director/ awards and winners] being used from everything to BLP's to sourcing award claims. There is no indication anywhere to me that this is a reliable source and appears only to be refspam that has been going on for years. There is no editorial control, no about, no contact (404) and their disclaimer makes it seem like anyone can edit it, though I've been unable to do so directly. There are [https://wikipediatools.appspot.com/linksearch.jsp?mode=multi&set=top40&link=awardsandwinners.com&https=1 500 occurrences, mostly in main space.] I'm actually shocked this hasn't been brought up (or blacklisted, for that matter.) I also see no evidence that it's a reliable source or widely used source except within their own social media. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 16:15, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately COIBot couldn't provide more information (result), although I could track one addition by one of the socks of this prolific case... —PaleoNeonate – 09:54, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree it should be added to the spam blacklist. Doug Weller talk 17:07, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I added a notice at WT:WPSPAM#awardsandwinners.com —PaleoNeonate – 00:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Do I need to start a full RFC for this to get blacklisted (and subsequently removed from main space)? CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 14:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

(Copied from the WP:SPAM thread): "Added to MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. --Guy (Help!) 22:05, 9 September 2018 (UTC)". —PaleoNeonate – 22:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Primemfac: Can we do an AWB run to remove this? CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 14:56, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I had never heard of this website until I saw these edits. Is it a WP:RS? Zazpot (talk) 01:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Can't see any indication that it would meet RS. Looks like a click-farming news aggregator to me. Guy (Help!) 12:08, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Guy, according to their "About" pages, in addition to the founder (who also seems to be the primary writer and editor), they pay freelancers to write for them as well. Now, being paid to about news events, in an ostensibly truthful manner, for publication, is "journalism", at least in the loosest sense. It is not just aggregation. But whether any particular journalistic standards are upheld there, however, I do not know, and I think it is on this point that rests the answer to the question of whether Horn Affairs is a reliable source. If anybody has time to look at this in more depth and to provide links/etc for evidence of their findings, I would be grateful. Thanks, Zazpot (talk) 00:24, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to ask if Taagepera:

• Taagepera, Rein (1979). "Size and Duration of Empires: Growth-Decline Curves, 600 B.C. to 600 A.D.". Social Science History. 3 (3/4): 117. doi:10.2307/1170959. JSTOR 1170959.
• Rein Taagepera (September 1997). "Expansion and Contraction Patterns of Large Polities: Context for Russia". International Studies Quarterly. 41 (3): 492–502. doi:10.1111/0020-8833.00053. JSTOR 2600793.

can be used as a source in this wiki article: List of largest empires.

This author is not a historian and makes claims that are false, namely that the Portuguese colonial Empire did not control the majority of Brazil upon Independence. Which is markedly wrong, as can be seen from an Encyclopedia written in 1807, therefore at a time when the Brazilian territory was still a part of Portugal, and I quote from page 707,

The dominions of South America, held by the small kingdom of Portugal, extend from the frontier at the French Guiana, lat. 1º 30' to port St. Pedro, S. lat 32º, being 33 degrees and a half, or 2000 g. miles: and the breadth, from Cape St. Roque to the furthest Portuguese settlement on the river of Amazons, called Sapatinga, equals, if it do not exceed, that extent*" and the footnote reads: "Da Cunha computes the length of Portuguese possessions, from the river of Pinzon in the North, to the river of San Pedro S at five hundred Portuguese leagues, that is two thousand B. miles, but as there are eighteen Portuguese leagues to the degree, each is not equal, like the Spanish, to four B. miles. He computes the breadth as of the same extent from Cape St Roque to the most western missions,

• source:Pinkerton, John (1807). Modern Geography: A Description of the Empires, Kingdoms, States, and Colonies; with the Oceans, Seas, and Isles; in All Parts of the World: Including the most recent discoveries and Political Alterations. Digested On a New Plan, vol III America and Africa. London: T. Cadell and W. Davis..

Furthermore it claims that Brazil upon independence 'was only half the size it was in 1900'. This is also markedly wrong as can be seen from these sources:

• Murray, Hugh (1837). The Encyclopædia Of Geography: Comprising A Complete Description Of The Earth, Physical, Statistical, Civil, And Political, volume 3. Philadelphia: Carey, Lea and Blanchard., page 223.

Brazil is a very extensive region [...] after being long held as a Portuguese colony, has of late, by peculiar circumstances, been formed into a separate empire.[...] In the interior, this Empire borders on every side upon the former provinces of Spain.[...] The dimensions of this immense range of territory may be taken from about 4º N to 23º S lat. and from about 35º to 73º W lon. This will give about 2500 miles of extreme length, and about the same in extreme breadth. The area of the whole has been estimated at upwards 3,000,000 square miles

• Barman, Roderick (1988). Brazil: The Forging of a Nation, 1798-1852. Stanford: Stanford University Press., page 12.

Portuguese America, as defined by the treaty of San Ildefonso, signed with Spain in 1777, encompassed territories of nearly 3 million square miles

• Soluri, John, ed. (2018). A Living Past: Environmental Histories of Modern Latin America. New York: Berghahn books. ISBN 9781785333903., page 93.

Unlike the United States, Brazil did not need to expand by way of treaty negotiations or military conquests to obtain an enormous expanse of Territory. The country received as its political inheritance, at least technically speaking, all of Portuguese America, a territory that already encompassed a space that was nearly the country's current size.

The wiki page in question has been the subject of several edit wars, and there is an ongoing discussion on the talk page.Ppteles (talk) 17:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Could someone please provide an opinion? ThanksPpteles (talk) 02:42, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

1. Source: blogTO.com -- appears to be a blog and violate WP:SELF
2. Article: Mirvish+Gehry

--David Tornheim (talk) 23:17, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

It's more of a local news site than a self-published blog, has an editorial team, posts editor's notes, and cites established reliable sources in its work. It's probably reliable for uncontroversial content, though usually better sources will exist. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:59, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

It's a local news site (kind of like a Toronto version of Gothamist only worse). It's also kind of garbage. I'd suggest it's a reliable source for things like "this event happened" or "this person was involved" but if you're sourcing it for anything beyond the basics, there are better Toronto sources. Simonm223 (talk) 14:16, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

1. Source. UrbanDB -- It appears to be crowd sourced. Please also know that I could not use https when accessing the site.

2. Article. Casa Condominio Residenza

--David Tornheim (talk) 08:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, no evidence this is RS. Guy (Help!) 12:01, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

For a second I thought this was going to be a RS question on Urban Dictionary and now I'm very disappointed. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary is perfectly cromulent. Guy (Help!) 17:56, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Can Funding Universe be used as a reliable source for uncontroversial information on a company? Specially, this edit using this as a source on Ligand Pharmaceuticals's page. All feedback is welcomed. Thanks Meatsgains^(talk) 01:11, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I would say no. There is no indication of fact checking or editorial control. It appears to be simply an unedited compilation of corporate releases, complete with the expected puffery ("Ligand's proprietary drug discovery and development programs are based on its leadership position in gene transcription..."). Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 11:50, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Funding Universe articles are simply copies of articles in the International Directory of Company Histories. It's best to figure out which year and Volume the particular article is from, and use that as the base citation. Often the same article will be repeated at Encyclopedia.com, which usually gives the Volume and year. Another option is to have someone at WP:RX get the most recent copy of the IDCH article via Gale access. Softlavender (talk) 22:41, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Update: That article is actually from International Directory of Company Histories, Vol. 47. St. James Press, 2002, so that's how the citation should read. It is also reproduced here: , , , . Gale licenses the old versions of the articles to be freely posted on the internet. Since that version is 16 years old, there is doubtless a more current version which is not on the internet but that is available via Gale access or via the hard copy of a later edition. Softlavender (talk) 22:49, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to ask what you think about Brzezinski's book:Brzezinski, Zbigniew (2012). Strategic vision : America and the crisis of global power (PDF). New York: Basic Books. ISBN 9780465029556. OCLC 787847809. being cited on List of largest empires. This has been deemed unreliable by two other editors, because the author isn't a historian.

However, the author has written about History, and is just as much a historian as the main author cited on that page, Taagepera, whose work in fact, I challenge the reliability above, because it's riddled with false information.Ppteles (talk) 17:15, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Is this about the issue of the area of Portugal at the extent of its imperial power? I'd suggest you could probably find a stronger source for that data if it's non-controversial. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I'll clarify that my objection to the source isn't that the author isn't a historian, but that that the book is about a completely unrelated topic – 21st century geopolitics, as opposed to the territorial extents of historical polities – with this as the sole mention of the latter in the entire book. In other words, it runs afoul of WP:RSCONTEXT, which says Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. TompaDompa (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

So, again, there's probably a better source for this information readily available? Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

@Simonm223:Is this source reliable?Ppteles (talk) 20:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

@Simonm223: or this one? Ppteles (talk) 20:28, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Hard to say for the mtholyoke.edu page, it is just a page of data without much context but I'd suggest WP:PRIMARY would be a good guide for it. I'd avoid a childrens' book; if people are being persnickety about a non-expert like Brzezinski on the page, that might be a non-starter. Simonm223 (talk) 12:05, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

The topic under discussion is specifically data about the world's largest empires, not Portuguese history per se. That better sources might be available is not germane to the subject of whether this book is RS for this specific subject, though of course if a better source exists it should also be cited. I'm also confused why we're discussing this as this doesn't appear to be a controversial subject - these figures are only estimates, any estimate depends on a range of assumptions, there is no "right" or "wrong" estimate. If credible estimates differ, then give both. Additionally Brzezinski WAS an acknowledged scholar in the field of international relations, and therefore IS an RS on the subject of large empires. FOARP (talk) 12:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

PS - I think there's a good case that that entire page may be original research by the way, since it appears to be a collection carried out by the editors themselves. The criteria for inclusion aren't based on any agreed criteria external to Wiki, just decided by the editors themselves - this is against WP:LISTV#INC. FOARP (talk) 12:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I generally avoid list pages like the plague and this list page is reminding me of why that is. I'd concede there's nothing wrong with setting a standard of using de facto empire sizes rather than de jure empire sizes, but other issues with the page, such as selecting what constitutes an empire to begin with seem rather more haphazard. The big one: excluding the United States from the definition on the basis that its constituent states are sovereign *cough*Puerto Rico*cough* *cough*Guam*cough* Simonm223 (talk) 18:22, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

@FOARP:@Simonm223: could you please give some input on this wiki's talk page, especially concerning the false value provided in Taagepera's source, and if you believe Brzezinski could be used as a reliable source. Thank you.Ppteles (talk) 02:41, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe the value is false. I'm saying that reasonable estimates can differ based on assumptions and this being the case it makes sense to include both. Anyway, I agree with Simonm223 that the entire premise behind the page is dubious, possibly original research, doesn't follow WP:LISTV#INC. FOARP (talk) 08:21, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

It's not Wikipedia's place to debate between two reliably sourced claims. However I agree entirely with FOARP that the entire list is problematic at a fundamental policy level as it depends too heavily on synthesis of data from sources and poorly defined, non-independent, criteria for inclusion. Simonm223 (talk) 12:42, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I removed the Brzezniski list per WP:C: it's a list created through a creative process, I believe such lists are copyright (as for example are music charts). Guy (Help!) 18:03, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@JzG: Is it ok to add the values in it to a wider table, for instance as a column, with the values referencing the list?Ppteles (talk) 01:50, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Can File:Petra Mark Hollingsworth letter to Rocky DeLauri.jpg be used as a reference as it is being used here? Not watching so please ping me and @Roccodb: as the discussion progresses. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:53, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz:Firstly Wikipedia is not an RS so I doubt anything on here is. Secondly How can we tell if this is a genuine letter, how can we verify it?Slatersteven (talk) 16:59, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

The source isn't Wikipedia, but we are being used to house the source.

I agree that there is no way to confirm the authenticity of the letter. It was the latter reason that prompted me to remove it as a source and restore the tag. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:04, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz:What I meant was anything can be uploaded to Wikipedia and stored here. There mere fact it is here (and no on a site we would regard as generally reliable for its content) rings alarm bells.Slatersteven (talk) 17:07, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I understood that (as I've been around for a while). This is mostly a conversation for Roccodb. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:42, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

A letter ADDRESSED to me and mailed in the US Mail to me, is then MY property. I own it at that point. If Mark Hollingsworth didn't want me to make it public, it would have a disclaimer on it. It doesn't. And Mark is on Facebook and you can easily verify he wrote it by just ASKING HIM! I totally disagree I have violated any copyright law publishing a letter addressed to me that I own. I also have a current text from the manager and daughter of the lead singer Greg X. Volz, Jonna Volz thanking me and asking me to put the video on YouTube and Facebook. I am a man of integrity and have worked at the Christian Broadcasting Network for 36 years and hundreds of people know me. I would never compromise my soul for something like this. What else can I do to prove this if you won't check with Mark? Also, as the promoter of the concert the day I shot the video, I still have my contract for that show. But I'm guessing with what your saying here putting a file of that up doesn't prove it to you. I have numerous articles that were written about me back when I was doing concerts and shot this video that were in The Virginian Pilot, the largest newspaper in the state of Virginia by daily circulation. Do I need to post those articles to prove I am who I say I am? I don't think any specifically talk about the video, but they do talk about me bringing the bands to town in concert. Please help me as I am new on here. Thanks!Roccodb (talk) 22:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@Roccodb, unfortunately Wikipedia has a history of being conned by editors who claimed to be something or someone they were not... and because of this, we cannot trust that you are who you claim to be. Nor can we trust that this letter isn’t something you created in your basement, and mailed to yourself. We simply cannot call it a reliable source. Blueboar (talk) 23:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

It is also a copyright infringement. If you send somebody a letter then the recipient owns the letter, but they don't own the contents of the letter. So on that basis they can sell on the letter but they can't make and publish copies of it. It is this law that underpins the IP of the film and music industries i.e. you can do what you want with your legally purchased property but you can't make copies, unless that right is explicitly licensed to you. Betty Logan (talk) 23:23, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Roccodb added that text to the article , apparently as a form of self-promotion. In my opinion, unless this is mentioned and cited somewhere in a reliable independent source, the entire sentence should be removed from the article. Given his edits, Roccodb (talk · contribs) does not appear to be here to build an encyclopedia, but only to add his name to an article. Softlavender (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• The file has been deleted from Commons as a copyright violation since the author of a letter is the copyright holder, not the recipient. But even if the file was still available, it would not be a reliable source for use on Wikipedia, because it has not been published in a book, magazine, newspaper or other publication with professional editorial control and a reputation for accuracy and fact checking. Roccodb, please ask yourself: Why you are here on Wikipedia? If it is to get your own name into the encyclopedia, then I will block you right now, since we do not allow self-promotion. If you are truly here to improve the encyclopedia, then move on to something else, because your current path leads nowhere except to a block. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:11, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The letter doesn't even support the statement. It doesn't mention Petra, it doesn't identify DeLauri as the producer and it doesn't say that "Blinded Eyes" was their first music video. –dlthewave ☎ 01:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Wow, the ineptitude here boggles the mind. Did you even READ the letter dlthewave? OBVIOUSLY NOT or your just unable to comprehend English. The letter CLEARLY mentions Petra. It is signed by the manager of Petra as, "Manager, Petra". It CLEARLY identifies me as the creator of the video "Blinded Eyes" and thanks me for doing it. Statements like yours and you should be stricken from this site for your complete lack of comprehension. Roccodb (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I take extreme issue with the statements by Softlavender and Cullen328 that I only want to self promote. I thought the goal of Wikipedia was to be as accurate as possible with truthful, factual information. My only goal was to set the record straight because as it is, it is NOT FACTUAL! Wikipedia now says Petra's 1st video was in 1985 "Beat The System". That is absolutely false. Word Records, the largest Christian Record Company in the world, put my video on their 1st music video reel in 1984, a full year before Beat the System was released. They ended up years later with over 300 reels. It was sent to thousands of Christian Bookstores and a multitude of Christian TV stations. There is a multitude of witnesses. I would think that you should be thinking about how inaccurate your site is right now to say anything different. I am the one trying to set the record to be factual. As far as Mark Hollingsworth letter to me. You say it is a copyright violation. Do you realize that is you admitting he wrote it and that it is real? You can't have it both ways. It is really sad that instead of wanting the information to be accurate on Wikipedia, you choose to attack and falsely accuse me. Here is a published article about me. It is not me self promoting, just me disproving these false accusations. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Whatever_Happened_To.jpg Roccodb (talk) 01:11, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

If that image is a page from a publication, it is also a copyright violation to upload it, but thanks for trying to improve the project. What I and Slatersteven stated was that there's no proof that you are not just a clever Photoshop user who can mock-up images to make them look authentic.

As for the "self-promotion" bit, do you know of any secondary sources that support 1) what was the first short-form video that Petra made 2) whether it was "Blinded Eyes", "The Coloring Song", or something else 3) that "Rocky DeLauri" produced it? I didn't read the contents of the local news piece. If that's what it states, we can use it as a source, but not the image itself. I can show you how. Feel free to {{ping}} me on the band article's talk page. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Walter, I tried to do the ping thing but obviously I couldn't figure it out. It's a catch 22 that you delete anything I post to prove my point claiming it's a copyright violation. How can I prove anything if it anything published is a copyright violation? That is a vicious loop that can only fail. Am I a "clever Photoshop user", your words. Well I am decent at it, I am the Senior Video Editor for the 700 Club. You ever watched it? I do the open for the show everyday and all the promos and teases, etc. I have been there 36 years. A simple phone call could confirm that if you care to check facts before you make a judgement on me. 757-226-2468. Front desk lobby phone. You don't last that long there if you don't have integrity, I assure you. Some people I am good friends with. 2nd Chapter of Acts, brought them 4 times. Got close to all of them. Matthew would bring gifts for my daughter and I for his. Steve Greisen can vouch for me too. Sweet Comfort Band. They all know me. Mylon LeFevre, brought him 4 times. Watched a George Foreman fight with him at my friend Don Black's house. You know Don, he runs the Cornerstone Television Network. I could go on and on. It seems pointless because you have incorrectly judged me without doing your due diligence in doing a simple thing like just check my Facebook page or work place and all the proof found there. What breaks my heart about this is I have been saved now 41 years and spent that whole time with anyone who knows me or has dealt with me in any way... business, church, work and they will all tell you the same thing about me. I am an honest, straight shooter who will never be anything but completely truthful with you. I donated money I didn't have in the past to Wikipedia because my integrity told me it wasn't right to enjoy the site without helping. You and your friends have completely turned me off to this site. I no longer respect or believe it is interested in the truth. Only agendas of a few people who obviously have too much power not earned. Have a good day! Roccodb (talk) 04:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

You can cite that newspaper page for any of the content in the article (just use the cite news template, you could use the url https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-68514644.html with subscription required=yes), but there's no need to upload the page itself. --tronvillain (talk) 15:41, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

No, the article doesn't currently say that Petra's first video was in 1985 "Beat The System". Softlavender (talk) 09:13, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

That is because I changed it to reflect the truth. Roccodb (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Nope, It's because I removed all mention of the word "first". Please actually read the current version of the article before you react. Softlavender (talk) 12:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Please read wp:or and wp:V.Slatersteven (talk) 09:18, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@Roccodb: Please don't take any of this personally - nobody is accusing you of being a fraud, but one of our central pillars is Verifiability - anything that is published here has to be verifiable. We have no way of knowing whether you are who you say you are, and none of this is a reflection on you personally, but the internet is full of people who are less than entirely honest and this project has to guard against that. For that reason, we actually care more about whether information is reliably sourced and properly verifiable than we do about whether it is accurate - I know that sounds strange, but it's policy. We aren't trying to collate all 'true facts' in the world - we are trying to collate what reliable sources say. What you need to do is find and provide details of a reliable source that backs up the assertion you want to make - you can find out more about reliable sourcing at WP:RS. I hope that helps. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:19, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh you folks are ABSOLUTELY committing libel and accusing me of fraud. The sad thing is you guys are just plain LAZY in my opinion. You all keep making statements like there is no way to verify the letter. Really? If instead of just sitting behind your computers doing nothing but typing false accusations against another human, you actually did something before that, then I could respect you. All you had to do is send the link to the letter to the author of the letter, Mark Hollingsworth and SIMPLY ask him if it is authentic. Mark knows me, I booked Petra 4 times with him and am friends with him on Facebook now. He currently works for Compassion Intl. flying all over the world the help them feed children. I use to let them do presentations at all my concerts. But how all of you sit there doing nothing but falsely judging me, is beyond anything I have ever encountered. I do take it personally. You are attacking me personally. If you weren't lazy you could also pick up the phone and call the Christian Broadcasting Network where I have a distinguished, blessed by God career and am known by literally hundreds of employees, not self promoting, just defending myself against false accusations that can easily be disproved, and verify I am who I say I am. Ridiculous I have to say that. You could also just click on my Facebook page, again makes me believe you folks are lazy, just a click and there is a mountain of evidence in pictures and comments by hundreds of people verifying I am who I say I am. I have won 2 Silver Telly Awards for my productions. Pictures and a letter from the Telly Council on my FB page. But I have no confidence from what you people have written here you will take the time to do even look at all that. I personally want you to know I don't take your false accusations lightly. If you are going to do that you have to do just the slightest due diligence and attempt to see if your false statement has any basis in fact. If you did that, you would clearly see how wrong you are. It also means something to God as He made it one of His 10 COMMANDMENTS. "Don't bear false witness", and that is all this is. And please quit repeating the letter does not qualify as a reliable source. It ABSOLUTELY IS, just ask it's author!! Roccodb (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Roccodb, I believe you are telling the truth, and also you apparently uploaded the music video of "Blinded Eyes" to YouTube (although who actually owns the copyright to that video is unknown to me). However, neither your letter nor the video qualify as sources or citations for Wikipedia's purposes. We only report what is reported in reliable, generally second-hand or third-hand, sources that are independent of the subject. I have removed the word "first" from the article on the strength of your testimony, which I believe; however we can't add information about the "Blinded Eyes" video without a reliable second-hand or third-hand source. This is how Wikipedia operates according to its policies (and if it didn't, it would be no different than any run-of-the-mill blog or social-media site). Softlavender (talk) 10:26, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Petra just added MY music video with my description as me being the producer and it being their very 1st music video ever, to their Facebook page. Link: https://www.facebook.com/Petraband/?fb_dtsg_ag=Adx2d-asRpes7H8iyR32xTxahYDhSzQt7XhpVErFDRxe5Q%3AAdzTxUGCGDdoxn7q4oAVQJytkzfm3XqEXtB7lGJCcC45qw

Wow, is that proof enough for all you people? Or are you going to accuse Petra of being in on it with me. I am passionate because truth has always been so important to me. Proverbs 6 says there are 6 things the Lord Hates. Funny that 3 of the 6 deal with exactly what you folks have done to me here. I wonder if now that Petra has verified I told the truth on their page will anyone here admit they were wrong? I doubt it. Roccodb (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Roccodb, becoming hostile, making legal threats, and making accusations of ineptitude is not going to help you; in fact, it's going to weigh heavily against you, as it would in communications with any organization. Once again, you need to realize that Wikipedia has specific policies that it abides by. Softlavender (talk) 12:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Using the word libel in no way is a threat to legal action. But if it needs to be said, I am NOT threatening legal action, that is absurd to me. I am only pointing out the truth to what is going on here. Roccodb (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Would you care to upload the letter to another site so we can check what it says? And yes, if Petra verifies it it might well be acceptable to source it to that.Slatersteven (talk) 12:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't be used as a source, even if verified; we've all read the letter and it doesn't say anything specific or even the name of the song. Softlavender (talk) 13:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Softlavender, the very 1st sentence of the letter says the name of the song with quotation marks. How can you say you read the letter and make the comment, "it doesn't say anything specific or even the name of the song."  ???? Roccodb (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

My error: I was misremembering a statement someone made above. Softlavender (talk) 13:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Roccodb You're missing the point about verifiability, and I'd ask you to tone down the insults. I don't doubt that you are telling the truth, but that doesn't mean that we can ignore our normal sourcing requirements - none of us here has any right to include material isn't sourced according to our policies, even if we are sure that the material is correct. Let's say I e-mail Mark Hollingsworth, and he replies to me confirming what you say - that's still not verifiable, e-mails can be faked, so it would just be my word saying 'I've got an e-mail so this is legit'. We don't work like that - we look for reliable, independently published sources to back up assertions, and if those sources don't exist then we don't make the assertion. BTW, you should retract the statement where you say that people are committing libel - that sounds a lot like a legal threat, and people tend to get blocked instantly for doing that. I'd advise you to make it explicitly clear that you are not threatening legal action, and strike the statement - if you're not sure how to strike it, confirm here that you want me to and I'll do it for you. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:00, 14 September 2018 (UTC) I AM NOT THREATENING LEGAL ACTION! I hope that is clear enough for you. Using the word libel is not a threat.Roccodb (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The facebook post may be enough, except it does not say who produced it, you have to go to the video to see that. And then we go back to anyone can create a page and upload stuff. How do we verify that you are Rocco DeLauri Sr. or that you made (rather then just uploaded) that video?Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Who produced it is immaterial, as that is not something we add to Wikipedia regarding run-of-the-mill music videos. Softlavender (talk) 13:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Maybe, but that is a separate issue from RS.Slatersteven (talk) 13:13, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Petra putting it on their page is not enough??? Let's use some basic common sense here. Why would Petra share it to their page with my description of me as the creator, producer, etc. if it were not true. At the very least they would put a statement disagreeing with that if they believed that. And now Greg X. Volz, the lead singer in the video has shared it to both his fan page and Facebook page and thanked me by name. Link: https://www.facebook.com/gregxvolzmusic/ I understand I am a very passionate person. I wish I was more like Jesus and able to not take things personally. But I am not Jesus and I am a human and I always express exactly how I feel. If Petra and Greg X. Volz posting it and thanking me aren't enough for you folks, I seriously don't understand how anything gets posted on Wikipedia. I also don't want to offend anyone and apologize if I have. I just wanted the page to be truthful and accurate. Without my comment, it isn't. That's all. Roccodb (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

If you would actually read the Wikipedia article, you will see that it is not inaccurate. Softlavender (talk) 13:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

No I am not kidding you. There maybe many reasons why they might have corrected a mistake (such as not seeing it, not caring, not having the time). I am not them so have no idea what goes on in their minds, this is why we have wp:v, because we can all try and guess what someone is thinking, and we can all guess wrong.

As to how to get anything posted on Wikipedia, read wp:rs and follow those instructions. Hell how about contacting Petra and asking them to officially say you made the video, how hard can that be?Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven, we're not going to add the name of a producer of a music video to the article, so this line of inquiry/instruction is unhelpful. Softlavender (talk) 15:22, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

https://scroll.in, http://www.opindia.com/, https://thewire.in, https://www.thequint.com/, https://theprint.in/, https://www.dailyo.in/, https://postcard.news/, https://rightlog.in/, http://insistposthindi.in/ , https://www.nationalheraldindia.com and https://www.altnews.in/ etc. should not be considered reliable sources as all of them have either pro or anti-government biases. They are not mainstream media, All of them are web based news sites with the main news consumers limited to internet users and more specifically social media users. Altnews is a private company managed by a team of people who claim to verify news by in-house Techniques and methodology... I find this questionable..moreover the neutrality of Altnews founder has been questioned for biases [http://www.opindia.com/2017/09/how-neutral-is-fake-news-buster-altnews/], . .

It was started here and then discussed to some length here ... Basically I Am looking for some generalized guidelines for barring all these websites from using as reliable sources because it will save much trouble in insertion of POV pushing material in politically sensitive BLPs and Articles related to India. Thanks ----Adamstraw99 (talk) 20:25, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Requesting procedural close of the thread above, since a bunch of sites all deserving an independent look have been clubbed together. Some of them are proven propaganda sites and some of them are reliable fact checking sites. with such a diverse spectrum of sites, No Generalized guideline can be passed as the nominator has requested. --DBigXrayᗙ 20:42, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

(+1) to what DBigXray states.Too diverse for any realistic discussion but I will keep a watch. ∯WBG^converse 12:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

@DBigXray:, Most of these sites are proven propaganda sites and de-recognizing them will surely save much trouble ahead. I think you mean 'Altnews' when you say 'some of them are reliable fact checking sites' ... So, I am ready to remove it from this list if you are so sure about it...But scrutiny of all these sites is very necessary to prevent very likely POV pushing and edit-warring in political/politically sensitive articles related to India in future. in RS arena these sites will surely cause trouble and ultimately all of them will end-up here tomorrow.. So lets try to settle this once and for all in the interest of community and neutral editing. Thanks for understanding --Adamstraw99 (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I think a detailed discussion is needed and this should be not be closed. DBigXray is right in stating that each of these sources are indeed different and need to be looked at individually (and not as as group or clubbed together). The discussion topic might not be phrased correctly but a real issue exists. IMO, the issue is that India, like the US, has seen the rise of multiple news media websites which do not necessarily publish paper media or have news channels but are plain websites. They come in all hues and flavors very similar to Breitbart, Wonkette, New York Post, AlterNet, American Conservative, Huffington post (I have picked from left and right varying them on their views from the US Media to provide a frame of reference to other non-Indian editors). There has been a detailed discussion on a good deal of these (US-based) websites and what is acceptable and what is not. Unfortunately, such a detailed discussion has not occurred for the Indian news-ecosystem and is required. Currently, different editors consider different sources to be valid/invalid based on their personal perceptions/likes/dislikes which at times may/may not be marred by their political beliefs. In my view, we need to evaluate these different websites or atleast measure them with the same yard-stick to ensure that there is a some form of guideline. In the earlier talk page discussion I had pointed to MediaBiastFactCheck as an independent metric that can be considered. I would like to hear the views of other editors here about tackling this issue. Adamgerber80 (talk) 21:08, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

@Adamstraw99: If we are going to assess them then we are going to assess them all (not as a group but individually). The level of assessment is to be determined via a discussion or how to determine what is acceptable. IMO, the focus should not be on what is in the "list" and what is not but the evaluation criteria for their inclusion as a WP:RS. Adamgerber80 (talk) 21:17, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

@Adamgerber80: yes, I Agree with you. Something needs to be done about these websites and you described it perfectly when you said - "Unfortunately, such a detailed discussion has not occurred for the Indian news-ecosystem and is required"... Thanks --Adamstraw99 (talk) 21:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong in using The Quint, The Print and The Wire for satisfying WP:V. The Print is WP:RS as long as you avoid the op-eds. I don't think The Wire is suitable for determining WP:NPOV as it attempts to fill a perceived void in mainstream journalism. Scroll and DailyO are opinion heavy websites and dispassionate fact-based reporting is hard to come by. National Herald is Indian National Congress's mouthpiece in all but name, and should be treated as such. OpIndia is definitely not reliable and unusable for WP:V too. It also allows user-submitted content and their editorial control is questionable at best. No opinion on the rest. —Gazoth (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I think Scroll should be considered RS on grounds of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. Same with DailyO. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:21, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

@Gazoth and Kailash29792: Thank you for your inputs. However, this is the very issue we are trying to solve. Both of you made comments on what should be considered in what situation. I do not have an opinion with your assessments or about their correctness. My issue is how did you decide that. As far as I can tell this was completely ad-hoc which is not ideal. A common metric is required to judge them. This does not mean that we will approve all of them or disapprove all of them. The common metric is required to determine what we can and we cannot use as WP:RS. The other option is we evaluate each one of them individually like this forum as done before but this will get tedious (but I am fine with it). I am also going to ping @Kautilya3 and SshibumXZ: other editors who edit in this area and may or may not have something to add here. I know that Kautilya3 and I have had a discussion on this topic in the past and were not necessarily on the same page. Adamgerber80 (talk) 03:38, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

@Adamgerber80: We have to evaluate them individually. It is impossible to find an unbiased metric that fits our requirements. I saw that you have suggested MediaBiastFactCheck, but it is too US focused. For example, it puts Republic as left-centre, the same as The Wire, just because of a single article that criticises Trump. They do note that the publication is right-leaning for national news, but the fact that it got pushed to the very end reflects the high priority given to reporting of US news. —Gazoth (talk) 11:33, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: This is not central to this discussion but I spent some time to look back at what caused this whole discussion. If I guess it correctly it was the use of Altnews as a source to state that Republic TV was reporting fake news (or something on those lines). I am not arguing on the validity of that argument but its removal was warranted. This would be like someone using CNN to call Fox New false or vice versa which is problematic given that we know both of them sit on the opposite sides of the political spectrum. And even if you were to argue that Altnews is not on the other end, that still does not make it the authority on that subject. Just my 2 cents. Adamgerber80 (talk) 03:59, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks Adamgerber80 for the ping, as far as these sources go, I would like to resonate some of Gazoth's views in that The Print should be considered a reliable source, but its op-eds should be properly attributed (to the editor), whereas The Quint and The Wire can be used for verifiability, but not to establish notability. OpIndia, DailyO, Rightlog.in, Scroll and altnews.in are partisan, opinion-heavy (in some way) websites with little-to-no editorial oversight (a few even allow user-submitted content), and ergo, shouldn't be considered reliable sources, nor should the be used to verify claims; if the aforementioned sites are used however, their views should be properly attributed. I am in a bit of a pickle regarding the National Herald, though, on one hand, as has been already noted by a fair few Wikipedians that it is clearly an Indian National Congress mouthpiece and shouldn't be considered a reliable source. But on the other, WP:NEWSORG dictates that established news organisations are generally considered reliable. What I'd suggest is to follow the Fox News method, meaning that the National Herald should be classified a partisan news organisation with editors being advised to exercise caution when citing it and to properly attribute its editorial stance and opinion.
  Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 11:57, 6 September 2018 (UTC); edited 15:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC).

Sidenote — I agree with Adamgerber80 in that, although this is a very wide discussion, it should not be closed and each site should be assessed individually, not in a grouped and generalised manner. Also, I have changed the section heading; feel free to revert.
Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 11:57, 6 September 2018 (UTC); edited 15:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC).

The credibility or reliability of media's  should not be based  on wether they support or criticise the government.Majority of the medias are working by criticizing the government all over the world.Adamstraw99 I've read you wrote those media's should not be considered reliable sources as all of them have either pro or anti-government biases. If this is the criteria to prove the reliability how can we use  Republic TV, Times Now, Zee News and ABP News as reliable sources (I find they all about pro government). Even if they are mainstream media's they were caught many times fabricating news  twisting facts and spreading fake news to help the  government and ruling party.And  most of these medias has been caught by cobra post on their sting operation that these news medias admitting themself they get paid by the govt or the people who related to government or the ruling party. The journalist and owners of these  media outlets have direct connection with the Government or ruling party. Where non of these media outlets such as the wire, the quint, dailyo altnews have no direct or indirect connection with either opposition or the ruling party  .Most of them are independent reputed journalist/Fact checker working with the money raised from the public.  These media outlets can be considered as a reliable secondary source per wiki standards. They provide accurate sources for their work as is expected from a reliable media and widely cited enough in other medias. Their sources are properly referenced and meet WP:V. As far as my concern I never find not even single article that is fake or data incorrect but I've find many of the data by the mainstream media especially the ones that I mentioned above in my first paragraph are fake in these days. As long as AltNews is used to back up a data fact, I am ok with using it as a reliable source.When it comes to the wire their explosive articles have been subject to much controversy and challenged it in courts but they stayed with all their data points no matter what, and the courts agreed with their claims that their facts were not made up and based on documentary evidence. There is nothing wrong in using The Quint, The Print and The Wire for satisfying WP:V. Scroll and DailyO should be considered RS on grounds of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV.  Op India ,postcardnews,and rightlog, are heavily biased propaganda sites owned by RSS-BJP using fake data points ,this has been exposed many times.And facebook had to remove the facebok page of postcardnews recently.--Akhiljaxxn (talk)

17:48, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

@Akhiljaxxn:, thanks for joining the discussion, but I think I should clarify here that my main concern here is not about these sources being pro or anti-govt. , criticism of govt. is always welcome the world over... I Am concerned about the creation of anti or pro government narrative using pro or anti-government propaganda, so propaganda is my primary concern because things cited in any article based on these websites as RS will bring battleground behavior and edit wars which will surely bring POV activities in many articles AS I Am sure propaganda articles will escalate in all these websites as we approach April-May 2019... other main concern is all these are web portals managed by a group of team who write blog like articles on daily basis, They are not mainstream media so not as RS as other established media like Times of India, ANI etc. .. If we accept them as reliable sources then riding on this numerous web portals will come up causing more atrocities in Wikipedia articles... A real problem exists as some of the editors have pointed out in this discussion... Some are clear offenders like Postcardnews, which is a Shameless Naked serial news faker and so notorious that nobody is even mentioning it here in this discussion... I See only one problem in Altnews which is they are cherry-picking the cases and are very selective in reporting, Picking stories painting only one side or community bad and ignoring others in selecting news materials to fact-check is a biased approached in my opinion... @Winged Blades of Godric: had told me on my talk-page that they will give me some instances of the "multiple mainstream media" where altnews is being "heavily mentioned" as a reliable source but I Am still waiting for their response... If that happens then I will remove Altnews from this list... and @DBigXray:, don't worry 'गेहूं के साथ घुन नहीं पिसेगा' (since you used that sentence on my TP ) Thanks everybody for joining in... ---Adamstraw99 (talk) 19:16, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

• I'll leave my detailed perspectives on each of the sources and a reply to Adamberger80's apt query, shortly.∯WBG^converse 17:58, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

@Gazoth, SshibumXZ, and Akhiljaxxn: I quit taking The Print seriously after found this substandard opinion piece written by a known Pakistani propagandist. --Saqib (talk) 10:21, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

@Saqib: It is clearly labelled as an opinion piece and the final sentence discloses his COI by noting that he is a volunteer in Imran Khan's party. I don't see anything wrong with providing a platform for politicians to air their views, regardless of their nationality. If you notice any issues with their articles not tagged as an opinion piece, do highlight them. —Gazoth (talk) 10:31, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

@Saqib: yeah, that does look a bit concerning, however, we can still use this by attributing the writer's point of view, hence—although certainly of a little concern—this shouldn't disqualify The Print from being a reliable source.
Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 14:54, 8 September 2018 (UTC); edited 15:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC).

It will be better to evaluate mentioned portals individually. Here @Adamstraw99 has given many portal are together. So that the discussion will be having limitation and it will be difficult to go for a judgment. This is my opinion. ---[[User:Akbarali]] ([[Talk:Akbarali|Talk]]) (talk) 19:03, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

@Akbarali: I formatted your edit a bit. Hope you don't mind.
Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 14:54, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

A de-novo start

• Comment--To begin with, it was un-wise to start a single thread with so many diversified sources and as many have stated, it is much prudential to tackle each of them head-on.

Thus, I'm devoting a subsection to each of the mentioned source wherein I am putting my analysis of the source.

Please take issues with each of my analysis at the very specific subsection and chime in with your views/thoughts as to each of them.

This has been mentioned at the Indian-Project-Noticeboard and I do hope that this discussion, (the first of it's sort about the Indian-news-ecosystem), will lead to a consensus as to the usage of certain sources and some broader perspectives.

Best,∯WBG^converse 07:39, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

There seems to be endless discussion and views of what constitutes a reliable source. Sometimes each source is assessed independently which requires a great deal of opinion and debate which of course introduces the potential for bias from ourselves. Why aren't we using sources that aggregate results from reputable fact-checkers such as mediabiasfactcheck?

This site seems to use two broad assessments of each source: 1) Whether it's left or right biased and 2) Whether the facts are accurate. Since it's the responsibility of Wiki editors to ensure article are presented from a neutral point of view, and examine all points of view, I'm not too concerned about 1). So let's concentrate on 2) whether the facts are correct. Mediabiasfactcheck obtains information from a large number of Internationally based fact checkers to obtain a score.

Factual Reporting: VERY HIGH = a score of 0, which means the source is always factual, sources to credible information and makes immediate corrections to incorrect information and has never failed a fact check.

Factual Reporting: HIGH = a score of 1 – 3, which means the source is almost always factual, sources to mostly credible low biased or high factual information and makes immediate corrections to incorrect information and has failed only 1 fact check.

Factual Reporting: MIXED = a score of 4 – 6, which means the source does not always use proper sourcing or sources to other biased/mixed sources. They may also report well sourced information as well. Mixed sources will have failed one or more fact checks and does not immediately correct false or misleading information. While the majority of the information may be factual on these sources, they need to be checked. Further, any source that does not disclose a mission or ownership information will automatically be deemed mixed.

Factual Reporting: LOW = a score of 6 – 8, which means the source rarely uses credible sources and is simply not trustworthy for reliable information. These are the sources that need to be fact checked for intentional fake news, conspiracy and propaganda.

Factual Reporting: VERY LOW = a score of 9 – 10, which means the source almost never uses credible sources and is simply not trustworthy for reliable information at all. These are the sources that always need to be fact checked for intentional fake news, conspiracy and propaganda.

So why not allow this site as a guide where only High and Very High are used, and Mixed only with extreme caution and when other sources aren't available? (Andromedean (talk) 08:43, 10 September 2018 (UTC))

I don't think that outsourcing our critical faculties is a good idea. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines that have been established and refined over the years to help us to assess what is a reliable source for what type of claim; our internal systems allow us to debate and discuss this to arrive at conclusions by reasoned argument and consensus-forming. Assessing the quality and suitability of sources for specific claims is amongst the most important things editors do on Wikipedia - sites like Mediabiasfactcheck might be a useful resource to help inform our discussions, but we shouldn't attempt to create an environment where it's sufficient to say 'X' is reliable because 'Y' says so. GirthSummit _(blether) 08:57, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, I think. There are a number of resources that will help us to establish the reliability of specific sources. Guy (Help!) 09:35, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

What is their criteria?Slatersteven (talk) 09:43, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

• I got as far as reading that the BBC often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes, that China Daily [the official mouthpiece of the Chinese Communist Party] is the most credible media source and that Most content on Wikipedia is well sourced with minimal bias before deciding I wouldn't trust this site in the slightest. I totally oppose this proposal or any variant of it. ‑ Iridescent 09:51, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Did not think of looking for Wikipedia, frankly that "non RS's" it for me. Even we do not consider Wikipedia RS.Slatersteven (talk) 09:54, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Honestly, with regard to Chinese domestic news (specifically in that context) their critique of the BBC and praise of China Daily are both kind of apropos. At least they were when I lived in China a decade ago... Simonm223 (talk) 12:45, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

2008 BBC article about the weather in China: "The insidious Chinese Communist Party predicted rain for Harbin last Wednesday and they were dead wrong. It was sunny."Simonm223 (talk) 12:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Absolutely not, and it pains me how often I encounter this website. It's a website with no employees, and run by a guy who runs the website as a side-gig from his health-care industry job. The methodology used to determine bias is utter nonsense, and the determinations are in part made by random-ass user ratings (e.g. if users say that Reuters is a liberal conspiracy outlet then the 'bias rating' will take account of that). The website uses Wikipedia in part to make the determinations. The website's FAQ also includes this embarrassing item: I’ve seen negative articles written about MBFC. Why is that? It is simple. Highly biased websites that are not always factual don’t like us exposing them. Since we back our ratings with evidence they don’t really have any recourse other than to discredit our website and ratings. We fully expect this, but are confident the readers of this website will be able to look at the source, our ratings, and decide for themselves who is credible. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:34, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with the comments above regarding the assessment of left right bias, this is susceptible to Overton window drift, but as I tried to point out this is irrelevant, Wikipedeans can adjust the terminology to a neutral point of view. What the site does is use data from fact checks from the International Fact Checking Network. such as Polifact, Snopes, and Full Fact (UK) amongst similar ones for different countries. If you type a media source in, it returns a preamble regarding left or right bias which is standard, this doesn't directly relate to the site, ignore this. If you go halfway down it provides a rating for Factual Reporting, in coloured letters. I'll give some examples:

BBC: Factual Reporting: VERY HIGH

New Scientist: Factual Reporting: VERY HIGH

Mayo Clinic: Factual Reporting: VERY HIGH

BMJ: Factual Reporting: VERY HIGH

Scientific American: Factual Reporting: HIGH

CBS: Factual Reporting_ HIGH

USA Today: Factual Reporting: HIGH

New York Times: Factual Reporting: HIGH

Washington Post: Factual Reporting: HIGH

Sky News: Factual Reporting: HIGH

Guardian: Factual Reporting: HIGH

Forbes: Factual Reporting: MIXED

MSNBC: Factual Reporting: MIXED

CNN: Factual Reporting: MIXED

Fox News Factual Reporting: MIXED

Daily Mail Factual Reporting: MIXED

RT News Factual Reporting: MIXED

Watts Up with That: Factual Reporting: LOW

InfoWars: Factual Reporting: VERY LOW

(Andromedean (talk) 13:05, 10 September 2018 (UTC))

Bluntly, if you seriously think the BBC—which has been on an anti-left crusade for the past decade—has a "left wing bias", that Wikipedia's accuracy is "high", or that the Communist Party has no left-wing bias(!), you really don't understand how to assess either reliability or neutrality in Wikipedia terms. There is absolutely no possibility that we're going to accept this obviously bullshit user-generated site as a reliable source for anything. ‑ Iridescent 13:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

• No. Much better to have a myriad of minds working together here to determine what is or isn’t RS through discussion than following the dictates of a single independent online media outlet such as MBFC News and their donors. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 13:42, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
• I would treat the use of this site to determine reliability the same way I treat the use of Wikipedia as a research tool: read the relevant article for a general idea, then start following the sources for the claims. They seem to be okay-ish with respect to identifying a site's bias and factual accuracy, but they're not always on the nose with respect to the most objective measures of such things. This is because part of their data set consists of user polls, as well as the judgement of a relatively small number of people. So I wouldn't object to someone citing it in a discussion about the reliability of a source, but I would never ever consider it the final word, or even a definitive statement. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
• Notwithstanding my half tongue-in-cheek comment above about China Daily and the BBC, (seriously though, we tend to over-estimate the quality of BBC reporting and under-estimate the quality of China Daily reporting in the West though neither is perfect by any means) I'd concur that it's best for us not to offload judgment calls to third parties in general. Heck, I've been railing on for a month about WP:MMANOT over-relying on Sherdog for notability criteria. Simonm223 (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
• Accuracy aside, this is not a task that we should be outsourcing. –dlthewave ☎ 15:26, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
• Actually I agree with the BBC comment above with regards to present political events at least. However, the BBC/Sky etc is already assumed to be a reliable source by Wiki. It is the alternative sites, most are rubbish, but a few who are doing their job (getting good fact checking scores) who are the losers, because they are all perceived as unreliable sources.(Andromedean (talk) 17:15, 10 September 2018 (UTC))

• No, it's not a reliable source for anything other than itself. I've looked at it before in some detail and agree with the negative comments above. Sometimes it may get a site's left-right bias right, other times it is clearly wrong and sometimes it's just confusing. Doug Weller talk 16:44, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Can you show me an example of them getting a site's bias wrong? I've had misgivings about that site from the moment I discovered it, but I've yet to see any evidence of them being categorically wrong. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:49, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I think it's more a matter of MediaBiasFactCheck having an implicit bias of its own - a tendency to center its political compass on the United States and a tendency to weigh editorial on the US heavy compared to international editorials. A perfect example is this: The Epoch Times is notoriously inaccurate with regard to reportage related to China. It's also pretty virulently right-wing. However, it's not run by actual fascists, which by US standards probably makes its bias right-center rather than extreme. Its' anti-China bias isn't that much more galling than that of Foreign Policy - which the website erroneously calls a least-biased source. As somebody who used to hate-read FP mainly to find out what American imperial actions to get angry about in any given month, until their pro-American bias became too sickening to handle, I find that a little bit questionable to say the least. But I have to measure everything through the terrifying funhouse mirror that is the American Overton Window. Simonm223 (talk) 17:01, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

• NO. Small site, run as a hobby whose reputation is not great - worse than RSN, :-). He probably gets the bias correct usually, and for the bigger outlets probably has fact check information (of varying quality)..... But for out of the way websites and fringe newspapers - the entries are of a rather low quality.Icewhiz (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

• Not advisable: use RSN instead, as well as this resource: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources‎, along with editorial judgement. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:51, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources‎ cites Fox News and Forbes as reliable, whereas Factual Reporting: only give it a MIXED score. Other than that I can't see any differences between the two, except Mediabiasfact check covers 100x more sources. As I say ignore the left right preamble which is irrelevant to us and focus on the factcheck part (High, mixed, low). Unfortunately Mediabiasfact check is poorly presented and alienates people before they get to the important part. What is RSN? (Andromedean (talk) 09:09, 15 September 2018 (UTC))

This is RSN. I don't see how we could determine whether we can trust the scores it gives source. If I read their site correctly, they describe their method as checking the content of a few articles from a source, determining how accurate they are, and then giving it a score. They don't describe in any detail how many articles they've checked, how frequently they review, how they decide which articles to check, or whether they give any weighting to the particular nature of the inaccuracy (a wrong birthday is less significant than a false report of conviction for murder) or how they occurred (a simple mistake in fact checking is poor, but intentional fabrication to get a good headline should be seen as more troubling). I just don't see how these scores could ever do more than inform a discussion that we would have here anyway.GirthSummit _(blether) 09:38, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Carlo Maria Viganò (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello, this Catholic prelate is in the news for stunning allegations against other high-ranking officials. The narrative presently depends heavily on LifeSiteNews, which is not simply a biased source, but rather notorious for their agenda-driven fabrications, distortions and defamation. Surely it would be worthwhile to locate sources with better reputations for fact-checking and editorial oversight. 2600:8800:1880:1084:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 18:52, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to ask anyone looking into this to examine the talk page for this article. The IP made a similar posting there. I believe it adequately documents why the complaint should be rejected. Display name 99 (talk) 20:20, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

LifeSiteNews is not a reliable source, but its use in the article is justified in the context of the letter written by the subject, and published by LifeSiteNews. Obviously, every attempt should be still made to back up contentious claims with reliable sources, but a blanket removal of references to LifeSiteNews is not going to work in this case. Bradv 20:31, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Please see this diff of me being reverted: ().

In terms of our policies, the other editor is quite right to do this - the text they reverted is what the source said. But it's left Wikipedia stating as fact something that is untrue.

The source, which has no expertise on Jewish scholarship, is factually incorrect. The name given is one used in a book that was indeed written by a Jew, but is not an accepted Jewish source and indeed on the precise point we're dealing with (what someone's name was) is contradicted by traditional / accepted Jewish sources.

Your expert suggestions welcomed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:32, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

We find counter RS and pout in both views.Slatersteven (talk) 08:38, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

It seems hard to do that without either going UNDUE or leaving the claim unchallenged in the text. Try this: "A gift shop is positioned below the ark, while a restaurant called Emzara's Kitchen – an allusion to "the traditional Jewish name for Noah's wife" according to source XXXXXX, although the traditional Jewish name for Noah's wife is actually Naamah,[new source] – is located behind the ark.[17] The Ararat Ridge Zoo, a petting zoo, is also part of the attraction.[2][17]" Bit bonkers. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Would it work to elide past the error? So this: "A gift shop is positioned below the ark, while a restaurant called Emzara's Kitchen – an allusion to a traditional name for Noah's wife – is located behind the ark.[17] The Ararat Ridge Zoo, a petting zoo, is also part of the attraction.[2][17]" --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:49, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Might it be possible to avoid the issue by rewording the sentence to remove the assertion about it being the traditional Jewish name? Eg: "...while a restaurant called Emzara's Kitchen - an allusion to Noah's wife..." - it seems to me that that would be uncontroversial, and perfectly sufficient for the sentence in question, which is really about the name of a restaurant rather than about what constitutes traditional Jewish scholarship. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:04, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)"although the traditional Jewish name for Noah's wife is actually Naamah" would likely be WP:SYNTH unless a source directly addressed that; maybe try "A gift shop is positioned below the ark, while a restaurant called Emzara's Kitchen – named after Noah's wife – is located behind the ark." as in this and this source. Vice has has "To do so required getting off the ark and heading across a gravely expanse to Emzara's Kitchen (the name given to Noah's wife in one of the non-canonical books of scripture)" Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:06, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I'd prefer Girth's I think, as it implies lack of consensus on her name, while Galobtter's implies more of a certainty around it. The sources you've added are great, thank you. Any other input? There's no made rush, so I'll leave this here for a day or two. I've promoted the discussion at article talk and a couple of WikiProjects, as well as with the editor who reverted. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:03, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I also think that avoiding the erroneous mention could solve this. There was a similar issue at another article about the term "universal flood myth", if I remember the resulting consensus was to avoid mentioning the misleading term that one of the sources used. —PaleoNeonate – 17:46, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

At this point I feel I should point out this is not an RS issue, unless the source is not RS.Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I was going to suggest your solution: change "the" to "a", and done with it. StevenJ81 (talk) 11:11, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest to adopt the version of Dweller as the most correct according to both opinions. True, the source says "traditional", which is not correct. Specifying the specific tradition as being the Book of Jubilees will make it correct, but even according to the source it will simply specify which tradition is meant.

In addition I would like to remind Theroadislong that we should paraphrase our sources, not quote them blindly, and for that reason too I prefer the version of Dweller. Debresser (talk) 11:35, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• Another option: simply omit any mention that there is a restaurant. Theme attractions usually have restaurants, so the fact that “Arc Encounters” also has one is an unimportant factoid. Omitting all mention of the restaurant completely removes the need to mention where its name comes from. Blueboar (talk) 11:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I've had this sort of problem and it is a real pain because there don't tend to be RSs that point out that something is false! If you can't agree to just remove the error then the best way round I think is to raise an RfC to remove the statement and its RS by consensus. Dmcq (talk) 12:15, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• RSes are not infalliable. The solution is either find a better source, or refute the wrong information (by other sources) on the talk page. If the mistake is wide enough - it might be worthwhile to state so in the text or in a footnote. E.g. there are a multitude of RSea that state that Joseph Nicholson Barney graduated from United States Naval Academy - however this is patently incorrect since the USNA was only opened in 1845 (however by the time he died in 1899- it become an assumption this was how the navy worked - however the early Navy worked on a totally different basis (similar to the English Navy), and Midshipman was an actual service (not cadet) rank) - since this error was very widespread, I footnoted the inconsistency.Icewhiz (talk) 12:26, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
• I have just been involved in a similar situation over at Hell's Angels (film). The film's budget was subject to immense propaganda at the time of the release, and the contemporary sources all carry the same erroneous figure. It is also documented over at IMDB so unfortunately it has spread like the clap in a Wild West whorehouse. The error (publicity propaganda in this case) has since been uncovered and exposed but even reputable modern sources still repeat the error. It is very difficult to fight back on something like this when the majority of reliable sources carry incorrect information, and the correct information is in the minority. The only way forward in this type of situation is to present a solid argument on the talk page with sources to back up your position. I was fortunate because I had a source that specifically commented on the error (which isn't always the case) but the key thing to remember is that we are editors not parrotts. You don't have to prove you are right, but if you can raise sufficient doubt over the accuracy of a source then that should be enough to exclude such a claim IMO. Wikipedia does have an important role to play in breaking a chain of misinformation. Betty Logan (talk) 14:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

wp:or, just because I know something it not true should never be enough for me to remove information.Slatersteven (talk) 14:46, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

To be fair I haven't actually said that, have I? This is what I advocated: "The only way forward in this type of situation is to present a solid argument on the talk page with sources to back up your position."Betty Logan (talk) 18:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Which (if you care to look) has not been done in this case, it is just "well I kn ow it to be false" with some backing from other eds here. This is why I felt the point must be emphasized that personally known truth does not trump RS.Slatersteven (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• I've encountered this before. This can happen in particular in the more obscure corners of the site, or when media sources grab hold of something and run with it. In these cases, the answer to date has been to either find a better source or just bar the problem source from the article altogether after explaining the issue on the article's talk page. After all, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, and sometimes errors slips through the cracks, even through peer review. Worse comes to worse, bringing the source this board also helps a lot. While we're expected to operate by WP:OR, we're also expected to operate with brains. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:13, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• This is not a difference of opinion about whether or not Emzara is the traditional Jewish name for one of Noah's wives, but an issue of fact. The name comes from the Book of Jubilees, which is only accepted by Ethiopian Jews and Christians. The problem is that if you mention her you need to explain who she is. Why not source it to Ark Encounter, for example, "Emzara, who according to Ark Encounter was one of Noah's wives." I would avoid mentioning the Book of Jubilees because it would mean nothing to most readers. If they are really interested in the names of Noah's wives, they can click on the link. TFD (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The source isn't the Ark Encounter, it's USA Today, and the name is traditional, but it's apparently not the traditional Jewish name. Suggest: "a restaurant called Emzara's Kitchen – alluding to a traditional name for Noah's wife". . . dave souza, talk 20:07, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I know the source is USA Today, which is why I wrote "Why not source it to Ark Encounter." The problem is that the USA Today article is wrong. According to James Kugel, in his book about the Book of Jubillees, p. 315, its authors invented the name Emzara. Instead I suggested that we use Ark Encounter as a source for the claim that one of Noah's wives was called Emzara. Unfortunately, their website says one has to visit the Ark in order to find out who she was. So alternatively we could omit mention of why the restaurant is called Emzara. Usually a lack of sources means the issue lacks weight. TFD (talk) 20:41, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the editor who said we're editors and not parrots; if it's inaccurate to say it's "the traditional Jewish name", change it to "a name" or the like (I see someone has done that)... and consider whether the name or even the restaurant is notable at all, as Blueboar and TFD suggest. If it's not mentioned in many sources, it may not be notable enough to include, even if it is mentioned in one.
FWIW this is a recurring issue, it also came up when a Reliable Source said ArbCom retitled the article on Chelsea Manning (ArbCom doesn't decide content, the title was decided via an RM). I joked then that it'd be policy-compliant to cite the RS to support the false statement and just "[point] those who think that statement is untrue to wp:Verifiability, not truth"; obviously, I think that's a poor course of action. -sche (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• Excuse me, but the problem looks totally artificial. If I come to the same noticeboard and ask:

"Is USA today a reliable source about Jewish mythology?"

the answer will be "definitely not: the author is not a specialist in that field, it is not clear where did they obtain this information, and the source has not been peer-reviewed". If I'll try to add this source (USA Today) to the Wives aboard Noah's Ark article, I think the result will be quite predictable :)

However, this source is reliable about the explanation of the origin of the restaurant's name: obviously, the person who gave this name believed it was the traditional name of Noah's wife. IMO, the best thing to do is to add a link to the Wikipedia article that discusses this issue.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

This is not about Jewish Mythology which I find to be rather a problematic claim. The restaurant is given a name, and the restaurant asserts the name to be a "traditional name" for one of Noah's wives, and the "fact" is "the reason why the restaurant was given the name" and nothing at all to do with discussions about the name of Noah's wife or wives. Thus this is not an "issue of fact" in any sense. Collect (talk) 13:41, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

How do you know that the restaurant asserts the name is a traditional Jewish name? The source does not say that. TFD (talk) 15:50, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

URL referenced above is in far too many BLPs and appears to be wholly unreliable and WP:CIRCULAR. Starting a discussion before I request blacklisting. It's being used frequently in BLPs, though I've been attempting to clean it up and right now there are roughly 10 articles where it currently is and past reports suggest that it's been used in deleted articles as well. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 14:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm also bundling this with takemetonaija.com as this is used a lot in articles and is clearly and totally unreliable, it's basically a blog. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 14:16, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

The former self-describes as HausaFilms.tv is a collaborative wiki-based website putting it squarely in the "unusable as RS" territory. (There might be reasonable uses as an external link.)

The other lacks the usual hallmarks of reliability, so I have no objection to removing that as a source. (Again, see caveat.) --Izno (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Izno my issue with takemetonaija is that it's clearly the equivalent of a blog/rag mag. See their super scientific piece about intimacy(possibly nsfw?) There's clearly no editorial oversight with this one as it's one guy blogging. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 14:52, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm just assessing reliability and leaving the note that they may still be acceptable EL (without necessarily assessing them against that guideline). --Izno (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Both are not reliable in general. But more specifically, takemetonaija.com is a garbage compilation blog, so shouldn't be used on Wikipedia anywhere. On other hand, hausafilms.tv can be allowed on limited case to support movie appearance of Hausa film actors, where no better source exist. These claims are generally true. –Ammarpad (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with you regarding hausafilms.tv as they are a Wiki itself and often just recycle content from here. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 17:32, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

You're right. I explore the site further and agree it shouldn't be used at all just like the other. –Ammarpad (talk) 17:42, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Do maps need sources? Per this edit . It seems to have a book source on commons. Thylacoop5 (talk) 17:16, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Not necessarily... Maps are merely illustrations of things that are stated in the text of an article... that text should be properly sourced but the illustration does not have to be. Blueboar (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

In this instance, the book source listed does not reference a Warsangali sultanate, as such adding that map to the article would be WP:OR. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:46, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I would have said yes, anyone can create map. But like anything it must be sourced, and verifiable.Slatersteven (talk) 18:53, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

A trio of editors, GeelJire, Kzl55 and XKeyse keep reinserting the notion that Haji Sudi and Nur Ahmed Aman were founders of the Dervish state over several articles. I reverted to sourced versions here and here. It is impossible the Dervishes had three founders/leaders since it was a autocracy. Furthermore, the second diff actually shows Nur was a refugee who fled to the Dervish state. Surely this is original research? Thylacoop5 (talk) 20:49, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

This is already being dealt with at WP:ANI#Disruptive editing by Thylacoop5. There's no need to discuss it here too. Bradv 20:57, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Btw, here's the sources calling it an autocracy, "autocratic head", "autocratic discipline of his dervishes", "autocratic Hassan", "a dictator", "autocracy", ""harsh autocracy of Dervish rule", besides others. Thylacoop5 (talk) 21:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

In each case, the information in question is cited to a source... so it does not appear to be WP:Original research. This seems to be a simple content dispute - a question of trying to balance sources that give conflicting information. Blueboar (talk) 21:36, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Its sourced, but the source does not say what the article text says. If you search with any combination of "founded", "founder" etc. including in the Italian language, it comes up empty. Perhaps the better way to phrase it is "misrepresented sourcing". You can even try synonyms such as "established" and it will come up empty. Thylacoop5 (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I have invited the aforementioned editors on their talk pages so they can provide the quote which substantiates this "founder" claim. Thylacoop5 (talk) 22:10, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Sure... it would be helpful to know what the cited sources DO say about Sudi and Aman. Blueboar (talk) 22:16, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I am thinking about working on the article for Tamar, and I was wondering if I could use the following source (1)? Here is the About page for the website (2) and the Contact page (3). Thank you in advance! Aoba47 (talk) 13:17, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Last week I made a Huggle revert on Donna Summer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for a questionable deletion. User Rick solomon said that a cited quote in an article from a reliable source (The Philadelphia Inquirer) was inaccurate, without anything to back it up. The quote was from someone named Rick Solomon talking about Donna Summer's artwork (see this diff). The user went on to say that he "never made the quotes attributed to me" and that "the citation cannot be retrieved any longer" on my user talk page. There's no way of knowing for sure that the user is who he says he is, and upon further investigation I found that the only reason the article is unavailable is because of a change in the website hosting the article. The link directly in the article now redirects to the Philadelphia Inquirer archives website. I found the original article in the Inquirer archives when I searched "Donna Summer," but you now have to pay $2.95 to be able to read it. For reference, here is the original article in the Internet Archive. Requesting another opinion on this situation. Aspening (talk) 15:45, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I see no issue with the source, and what the ed says is irrelevant.Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps the cause of Rick Solomon's concern is that the archived article quotes Jack Solomon — not Rick Solomon. The fifth paragraph of the archived article introduces the speaker as "Jack Solomon, chairman of Circle Fine Art Corp., ..." Here are links to the first and second parts of the article as it appeared on the printed pages. Eddie Blick (talk) 18:23, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Interesting... would it be appropriate to add the content back in with Jack Solomon as the person quoted? Aspening (talk) 13:45, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

If you're effectively black-listing the other British tabloids, even having automatic warnings trigger which basically tell you not to use them as a source (but not making clear that things like, e.g., statements in interviews reported by the paper should be kosher) leaving The Daily Mirror off the list (i.e., this list Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources) just looks like political bias. In terms of reliability it has no better reputation than the others. Most famously it published hoaxed photographs of soldiers beating detainees in Iraq on the front page. Under Piers Morgan it was deeply embroiled in the phone-hacking scandal. It's reportage is the same dreck of celebrity gossip as all the other tabs. Why is it omitted? FOARP (talk) 13:50, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

For context, see Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources#The Mirror. Looks like previous discussions are here and here, with the most recent being from 2013. GMG^talk 13:55, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I argued at the time (and since, more then once), that we should not single out the Daily Myth. And I agree the Daily Mirror should also be banned for the same reasons.Slatersteven (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I lean toward exclusion of tabloids generally, but there is a substantive difference between the Mail and the Mirror (and Sun and the rest) in its fabrication of stories, churnalism (especially in Mail Online), harassment and incitement to harassment, and of course its notorious "sidebar of shame". Guy (Help!) 12:06, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I remember when we were voting to exude the Daily Myth that I got it's lies mixed up with those of the "Daily British solders torturing Iraqi prisoners shock photos", sorry its lies are far far worse and far ore damaging.Slatersteven (talk) 14:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

• I would support blanket deprecation. This sort of tabloid churnalism shouldn't ever be used as a source for claims of fact. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:12, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

But what does "blanket deprecation" mean?

We already have policies on sourcing in general. We do not have a pervasive problem with such that would be improved by automatically excluding certain sources, just because they're easy to define.

If we want to source David Beckham's inside leg measurement, then the Mail is probably a good source for that. The problem there is a focus on tabloid subjects, not their sources. Now if WP was to exclude more of the gossip column topics, then I'd be fine with that, but it ain't going to happen. We are already mired in many DM sources for such, and neither they nor their articles are going away.

There are cases where the DM uses its deep pockets to buy newsworthy photographs that others can only dream of. Those are cases where it justifies itself.

If political bias is the problem, then why is the BBC permitted? They've become dreadful (Laura Kuenssberg, I mean you) in recent years.

WP is forever finding reasons to exclude the UK press as "worthless tabloids", yet USA Today and Fox News are unchallenged.

We need a policy which says that editors need to make editorial decisions to exclude bad sources and avoid bias. We already have this. We can't replace such an editorial demand by simply saying, "The Mail is out, but Fox is OK". Andy Dingley (talk) 14:14, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

At present we have blanket deprecation of the Daily Mail. This means if you edit a page to include a reference to it you receive a warning telling you not to do it. If you then still go ahead and do it, it appear an alert is sent as you will very likely then see someone come into to remove the reference even for non-contentious material. There is no really reason why the Daily Mail should be blanket-banned in this fashion, but not the Mirror which has many times done things equally as bad (the hoax-photos scandal, the harrassment during the phone-hacking scandal etc.) and is just as arguably not an RS. Not to do so seems like pure political bias. EDIT: just to emphasise the point here, Wiki already is "automatically excluding certain sources, just because they're easy to define" FOARP (talk) 08:28, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• What is the problem?
• Will this fix it?
• Are there other solutions?

I do not see a blanket focus on the publisher as being anything like as effective as good editorial management of individual sources. For all three of these points. In particular, because the Mail or Mirror might be bad but there's much worse out there these days and because those sources are US, they're never going to see the same overall deprecation. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• We also have edits like this (Go on, guess who) which are blanking sections of relevant, non-contentious content, simply because the Mirror was involved. And yet they don't tag the content as needing better sources (as policy states they ought to) or even fact-checking it themselves (BTW: )

This pruning is nothing to do with improving anything, it's just the same handful of editors waving their egos around. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:12, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

No, it is about a handful of edds getting fed up with this kind of crap being used as a source when you cannot trust it. This might not be an issue if we enforced "notnews" rigidly, but we have to have live news feed articles, and so we use media sources whose first concearn is "exclusives" and "scoops" not accuracy.Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

So would you support the deletion which I linked? As an outright deletion? Or tagging as {{better source}}? Or as a removal of the Mirror cite and {{cn}} adding?

Because edits like this (removing the lot) are damaging in a way that they do not need to be, and it's not being done to "improve" anything, it's just being done to massage egos. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:24, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

That is irrelevant, you could ask the very same question about and NonRS. I would also suggest you AGF, this is not about egos (unless it is the ego of Newspaper editors and owners who think they do not have to follow the rules of common decency whilst acting as moral guardians), this is about using only the best and most accurate sources.Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• Well it's better than The Sun, but that's not exactly saying much. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:50, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
• The Daily Mail was banned for repeatedly lying, not just for poor fact checking. I probably would have supported a ban for The Daily Mirror while Piers Morgan was editing it, but is there any evidence that its inaccurate stories are any more than poor/lazy journalism? Once Paul Dacre leaves the Mail we'll probably have to review that ban too, if we can be sure the fabricated stories have come to an end. If we are going to just ban The Daily Mirror for being crap then we should just bite the bullet and ban all British tabloids for being crap. Betty Logan (talk) 10:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

  Further comment: Can I just say that I have noticed the Daily Mail ban being used to remove opinion pieces such as reviews and op-eds from the article, and it really bugs me. I support the ban for factual reporting but I don't think it should apply to op-eds. For example, this op-ed Ed Miliband wrote in defence of his father was a notable story, and there is no reason to suspect that the article does not accurately reflect Ed Miliband's feelings towards his father, and therefore I see no reason why we can't use it in a primary source capacity for the writer's own opinions. Betty Logan (talk) 11:01, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

  The problem there is that the Mail has a well-deserved reputation for fabricating interviews, too (this is a notorious recent example). In Miliband's case it's almost certainly genuine as he didn't complain, but one can't be sure. Where the Mail is undoubtedly a RS is as a citation for itself ("on 2 August the Daily Mail claimed that..."), but anywhere else it needs extreme caution. ‑ Iridescent 19:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

  I am okay with banning the DM as a source for interviews, but an interview is a different beast to an op-ed. In an interview the journalist writes up the interview so the capacity to misrepresent somebody still exists. That is quite different from an op-ed or a review where the author retains control of the piece, and to be fair the DM discussion focused on factual accuracy, not opinion pieces. I took part in that discussion and supported the ban but it has over-reached what I originally supported. Betty Logan (talk) 19:52, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Just a reminder that the Daily Mirror was involved in one of the biggest hoaxes of 21st century UK journalism and was deeply embroiled in the phone-hacking scandal, and that the topic under discussion here is not the Daily Mail, which is already essentially a banned source on Wiki, but the unequal treatment of other UK tabloids which are little or no better. PS - Betty Logan, Paul Dacre has already left the Mail. FOARP. PPS- Andy Dingley I think you're right about the inconsistency between the UK and tabloid/propagandistic sources external to the UK, especially when not only Fox News, but RT, have avoid blanket deprecation - the difference for both of those sources is that there is an active community on Wiki dedicated to defending them and preventing the kind of blanket deprecation applied to other, undefended sources. All the same, if we're applying blanket bans, then this should be done consistently. (talk) 11:47, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I think we may be over0interpreting the Daily Mail ban, to the extent that it may need rewording. It has to be used very cautiously, but not all of it is worthless. As I have followed these issues here on RSN for the last 11 or 12 years, there has been an increasing well-merited skepticism about many individual sources, I think we are losing the perspective that there are many intermediate grades between sources that are always reliable and sources that are never reliable--I've stated this previously as "no source is always reliable for all purposes, and no source is totally useless for some purposes. We have to consider not just the name of the source and its general reliability, with the actual content of the particular item involved. To use an unrelated example, various afds in the last year have rejected (in my opinion correctly) even the NYT as a RS for notability in some of the coverage of some of its columns, about "interesting" human interest subjects. The reverse is true even of the Daily Mail. Nothing it says can be trusted to be necessarily true , but some of what it says has been, even some matters which other sources have not initially reported. There is no way of dealing with RSss except judgement in the individual instance. DGG ( talk ) 04:10, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

This seems to be a case of point. Since the Mirror is permitted, so should the Mail. That approach is ineffective, far better to be direct. Also, when a source is unreliable, it is unreliable for everything except its own opinions. We don't know if Ed Milliband really wrote the op-ed or if it is a hoax. And if it were a hoax, we would not expect Milliband to complain since the publication is considered unreliable. Furthermore, nothing published in the DM has any weight, unless it is reported in other publications, since weight requires that articles "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources" (my italics). Hence we could not use the op-ed in any case. TFD (talk) 04:36, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

In this edit, John removed The Vintage Feminist's statement about Armando Iannucci's support for the 'People's Vote' campaign, saying that it needed a better source (it was originally sourced to the Mirror, a British tabloid). I proposed using this tweet, in which Iannucci himself declares his support for the campaign, but John has said he's not happy with using a tweet. If I read WP:SELFPUB correctly, it says that Twitter is an acceptable source for information that is purely about the owner of the account, and isn't controversial or self-serving. This seems to me to meet all of those criteria. Thoughts - is this tweet an acceptable source for the original claim? 17:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

The Mirror article is not a tabloid article about him, it's an opinion piece he wrote himself. It's clearly an acceptable source about his views. Consider the five criteria from WP:SELFPUB:

• 1. the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim — It isn't.
• 2. it does not involve claims about third parties — It doesn't.
• 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source — It doesn't
• 4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity — I think publishing a fake opinion piece from a public figure would probably get attention.
• 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources — The article isn't.

I don't see any problems with it as a source for his views. RoseCherry64 (talk) 18:07, 19 September 2018 (UTC)