Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 274

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We have a large number of links to Leigh Rayment's pages - in the thousands - and even a template, {{Rayment}}. I have some concerns.

• The site has obvioualy been hit by a keyword stuffing hijack, Google his name.
• The biography shows no evidence of reliability.
• Many of the links appear to be functionally useless, e.g. to /baronetage from dozens of articles on baronetcies - isn't a source for text on the article as it claims (e.g. Albert Spicer) and doesn'#t appear to be that useful.
• Much of his content cites no sources. When he does, it's to things like The Newgate Calendar, a rather lurid populist book which would definitely have been prone to embellishment, especially in its days as a penny dreadful.

The template was created by Kittybrewster, a valued and delightful man who nonetheless has a history of adding articles of questionable significance. A few citations to an L. Rayment exist in the literature, but this is Louise, not Leigh, and they are English, whereas the bio says he's Australian. Many of the links were added by Tryde (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has left the building so I can't inquire further.

On balance, I think this template should be deleted and the links nuked as a self-published source. Guy (Help!) 18:27, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Zero input, I have no further info from off-wiki, I will start tagging as {{sps}} if nobody objects? Guy (help!) 17:03, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I've been removing Rayment sources for years now. I thought it was already determined to be unreliable and SPS. Don't know where I got that idea from but I do agree with it being so! - Sitush (talk) 13:12, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Valuable corroboration, thanks Sitush. Guy (help!) 20:03, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Jim Saleam is a well known Australian neo-Nazi, a holocaust denier and a criminal - convicted of involvement in racist hate crimes (including attempted murder) also convicted of fraud.

On release from prison, for an attempted racially motivated murder, Saleam attained a PHD. His PHD thesis was being used as a citation for analysis of the 1930's proto fascist movement, the New Guard. To my knowledge no one ever reviewed or republished Saleam's thesis, it never went anywhere, it's been ignored by the broader academic community. He is not notable for anything other than fraud, neo-Nazism and attempted murder.

I do not believe this is a reliable source by any measure. What do other editors think of this source? Bacondrum (talk) 22:42, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

If the thesis was reviewed by qualified experts and the doctorate was awarded by a legitimate university that followed its normal policies and processes then the document is almost certainly a reliable source. What the author has done otherwise isn't relevant. However, if no one else has ever cited the document then it probably doesn't merit inclusion in an encyclopedia article on the grounds of due weight. ElKevbo (talk) 01:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• I see his thesis is used for this edit: . So... work of a far-right extremist used to "balance" the article about a far-right organisation of the 1930s. Joke of the day? In any case, he is not a renowned (and respected) expert in this field of study, his opinion is certainly undue. Pavlor (talk) 07:27, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• I believe it has due weight. Please see the concerning article's talk page under "Jim Saleam's PhD" for my argument. AwakenedWorld (talk) 08:40, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

It is obvious Saleam is object of study for historians you mentioned, not renowned expert for 1930s Australian politics. His personal history aside, he is only some no name graduate with PhD (thousands of these in the world...), there is really no reason to have his opinion in the article. His thesis may be useable for uncontroversial facts, but certainly not for the edit, you tried to push through. Pavlor (talk) 08:51, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

To compare him to the swathes of PhDs in the world, and hence to invalidate his opinion in the article, would be to ignore his heavy role in the Australian far-right scene since the 80s. He's not a no-name by any stretch of the imagination, being someone with so much experience. AwakenedWorld (talk) 09:32, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

He has next to no scholarly renown. As you wrote himself, his only notability is based on his political activity - and even here he is only a marginal voice (1.2 % best electoral result...). Once he becomes accepted as a scholar (or successful as a politician), his opinion may have some weight. Until then, he is certainly not the source we are looking for. Pavlor (talk) 09:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

He clearly has been accepted as a scholar, as evidenced by his citations. Given that it's the responsibility of editors to uphold WP:NPOV, I would be happy if another source representing a similar minority view is added. This would settle the dispute and achieve the same utility as Saleam's dissertation, hopefully without further hiccups. However insofar as that minority view is not represented, I argue strongly in favour of due weight for Saleam. AwakenedWorld (talk) 09:51, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I fear your understanding of NPOV and due weight is not compatible with policies you cite. If you want to add this POV to the article, simply find better source. Pavlor (talk) 10:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Red flags aside, this thesis does not appear to have had any significant scholarly impact. Almost every time it is cited in academic literature, the author is actually writing about Saleam himself, not referring to his research. I think it can be safely discarded. It's entirely reasonable to consider modern neo-nazi perspective in a legacy section of an article on a much older far right group, but that can be done from the point of view of authors who are not neo-nazis. There are even a couple of historians who mention Saleam's opinions in this respect. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:28, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Indeed? I think combining those historians' opinions with Ivar the Boneful's solution could work. AwakenedWorld (talk) 10:55, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I think it's had about as much scholarly impact as your typical PhD thesis on a niche historical topic. I don't think you're correct about how his thesis has been cited. Google Books and Google Scholar both turn up several instances of his thesis being cited and his arguments mentioned or discussed by other historians of the far-right. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:59, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

The University of Sydney doesn't hand out PhD's willy-nilly. Many works about the histories of obscure/extremist political movements are written by those involved in the movement or sympathisers, it doesn't mean they're not necessarily scholarly. I don't see a particular reason to reject this source across Wikipedia, and I see it is already cited on half a dozen other Wikipedia articles https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search="the+other+radicalism". His political affiliation could be noted more clearly. Possibly having a whole paragraph in the article lends undue weight to Saleam's views and it could be condensed into a couple sentences. Have any other scholars responded to his argument? If so that could be a way of balancing his views. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:44, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree. I think that would be most appropriate. AwakenedWorld (talk) 10:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• We don´t reject (well at least some of us) this source as unreliable, we reject its particular use in the article as undue. As Someguy1221 wrote above, extremist POV can be covered by works of more mainstream historians. Pavlor (talk) 11:20, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

In that case, would its pairing with other sources of the same minority view be suitable in your opinion? AwakenedWorld (talk)

I mean use one high quality source to present this POV. If some good source mentions Saleam´s opinion, then this may be useable - with proper attribution. Pavlor (talk) 12:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to hear Bacondrum's opinion before proceeding with a draft. I'd prefer to have some consensus here. AwakenedWorld (talk)

I'd accept one high quality source to present this POV or a source that mentions Saleam´s opinion - with proper attribution. But, if the section is merely about Saleam's view of things then it is undue. Bacondrum (talk) 12:40, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Excellent, I'll prepare something in a few days. I invite you both to keep a watchful eye on the page, and please interject with your own improvements if necessary. AwakenedWorld (talk) 13:19, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, sorry if I got my hackles up. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from in objecting to the use of this vile and hateful man as a source. Bacondrum (talk) 23:17, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I can understand. AwakenedWorld (talk) 00:14, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

It meets rs per Scholarship. But all that means is that the facts presented in the thesis can be considered reliable. That does not mean that any of the opinions expressed in the article should be included. That is determined by Due and undue weight: "each article [should] fairly represent[] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." If reliable sources have ignored these opinions, then they fail weight for inclusion. TFD (talk) 20:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with TFD. It is a PhD, that's the beginning and the end of what can be said for this offered source. It's not notable and is ridiculously UNDUE for the purpose of "balancing" the article. And I'll mention that "activist", as AwakenedWorld wishes to designate Saleam in the New Guard article, is also ridiculous. If Saleam ends up being mentioned in the article, which I'm strongly against, I suggest using our article Jim Saleam to indicate what Saleam is actually notable for: "Australian far-right extremist Jim Saleam", or "convicted criminal and neo-Nazi Jim Saleam". I blinked in disbelief when I saw AwakenedWorld's argument on Talk:New Guard that talking about Saleam's "purported" [sic] Neo-Nazism (AwakenedWorld considers Neo-Nazism "a vague phrase") constitutes "an an attempt to poison the well". What? No, not at all. Also, as long as we're on the subject of New Guard, why have we been allowing elaborate self-promotion in the article, by quoting their program at length? What is all this about loyalty to the throne, uniting all loyal citizens, maintaining the full liberty of the individual, etc, etc? We don't do that for any political organisations, or indeed any organisations, because then they would all appear wonderful. Compare Wikipedia:Avoid mission statements. I've removed the section, with an explanation on talk. Bishonen | talk 09:38, 7 September 2019 (UTC).

UK progressive online only news sites such as The Canary, Evolve Politics and Skwawkbox have been described by the BBC as making a huge impact and earning a massive following."^[1] They are all subject to a state approved regulator, IMPRESS and receive a positive rating from NewsGuard.

• Evolve Politics
• The Canary
• Skwawkbox

They are relevant across a range of articles relating to British current affairs.

Using these sources in Wikipedia articles aids in NPOV as they present a progressive viewpoint and content often absent from the mainly conservative mainstream media, which is owned and directed by commercial companies. Even the non commercial Guardian is not a consistent supporter of the current Labour Party, which is the offical political opposition in Parliament. While this is a subjective view on my part, it may be that these sites were originally more sensationalist to establish themselves and over time have become more reliable. However, some editors still regularly delete content from these sites, on the basis that they are fringe. Can we have a consensus that they are sufficently reliable as per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources to be used? Jontel (talk) 20:52, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Even as I may like them, I have a certain trepidation about a blanket declaration that they're solid RSes for all purposes in Wikipedia. With-attribution, as the partisan sources they are maybe. But I'd like some evidence of actual reliability as sources. And being signed up to IMPRESS doesn't really mean much - "No national newspaper has signed up to the new regulator" - David Gerard (talk) 14:49, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

You say "some editors still regularly delete content from these sites". Why not identify these editors and the article talk pages where you have tried to discuss with them? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I have to echo Peter’s comment. Reliability always depends on context. The same source can be reliable in one context, and unreliable in another... so we would need to see HOW these sources are being used (what they are being cited FOR) before we can say whether they are reliable or not. Blueboar (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

• I'm highly skeptical of The Skwawkbox, as it is a blog operated by a single person (Steve Walker, who is not any of the people listed on the Stephen Walker disambiguation page). That classifies it as a self-published source. Evolve Politics lists two people in its about page, Tom D. Rogers, and Jessica A. Miller, which is still in self-published territory. The Canary has the largest team of the three, with several dozen people listed on its team page, and I would not consider it self-published, although I have not yet examined the site's content or reputation. — Newslinger talk 15:57, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I would say that these sites are typically useful as a source for quotes and statements by progressive politicians and activists to whom the sites are sympathetic, meaning that the sites will likely be reliable for this, when attributed, when these quotes and statements are not covered elsewhere. There is no need to use them for the facts of significant events, as that is available from more mainstream sources. Nor would their opinions carry much weight. They have small staffs, but that is not such a handicap for online publications. I would invite the views of Icewhiz, Bondegezou, Bellowhead678, RevertBob Slatersteven and Bangalamania without making specific assertions. Also, G-13114 Here are two discussions: Talk:Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party/Archive_3#The_Canary and Talk:Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party/Archive_7#RfC.4_IJV/JSG/JVP_/_Oryszczuk Regarding providing evidence of accuracy as requested by David Gerard, what would that be? On NewsGuard standards, they rate The Canary 8/9, Evolve 8/9 and Skwawkbox 9/9. On Impress complaints unheld in whole or in part over three years, The Canary has two, Evolve one and Skawkbox five. A 2019 survey by the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism found that The Canary was trusted by its readers more than publications such as Buzzfeed News, the Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, HuffPost, The Independent, Sun and regional press, and almost equal to the Daily Telegraph.^[1]Jontel (talk) 16:28, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Meh... “trusted by readers” may be another way of saying “bias confirmation”. I would be more interested in what critics say. Blueboar (talk) 17:10, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Critics are typically political opponents or competitors and usually both, so plenty of motivation for bias. However: [Press Gazette] [Buzzfeed][News Stateman] This critiques MSM coverage of UK Labour Party, so making a case for additional sources. [Media Reform] Jontel (talk) 17:56, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Jontel's comment that they are acceptable sources for left-wing politicians' comments on issues, but not much else. However, even in this context we still should be wary. Just because a comment is true, doesn't mean it should be included, and I am not convinced that being covered in the Canary is enough to warrant inclusion of comments into articles not about the politician in question. Bellowhead678 (talk) 18:26, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Blueboar:I am curious as to these comment of yours."I have to echo Peter’s comment. Reliability always depends on context. The same source can be reliable in one context, and unreliable in another.". How can a source be reliable and not reliable? How about the New York Times or Washington Post? Can they be reliable in one context and not reliable in another context? What then is the criteria upon which reliability is judged?Oldperson (talk) 18:39, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, for example, a tweet from Donald Trump that says X is an idiot, is an RS that DT tweeted that, but not an RS that X is an idiot. WaPo and NYT are great for lots of stuff, but when you get into the area of WP:MEDRS the desired bar is often higher. This is WaPO. It's still only RS for the authors opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2019 (UTC) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:44, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

• Nooooo, not hardly. These are no better than the likes of the Daily Caller. Popular <> accurate or trustworthy. Remember: millions of people trust te Daily Mail. The ususal rule applies: if a better source exists, us it, if it doesn't, it's probably bollocks, or at least its significance is exaggerated. Guy (Help!) 18:52, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
• These are entirely the opposite of "reliable sources" - they are deliberately highly partisan, often loose with facts, sometimes engaging it outright fantasy... The Land (talk) 18:56, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
• They are not remotely reliable. They are highly partisan. (Yes, in very limited circumstances, they might be reliable for certain quotations, but, generally, no.) Look at The Canary: here's a current article, entitled "The BBC’s pro-Johnson propaganda is so absurd even a former Tory deputy PM has had enough". We consider the BBC RS. If we accept The Canary's view, the BBC is not RS, it delivers "pro-Johnson propaganda". We can't have an RS list including both! Now read the actual article: it misrepresents what Heseltine says to fit an agenda. Read The Skwawkbox, it's just non-stop pro-Corbyn spin. Bondegezou (talk) 19:52, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
• I have to agree with what has been said above. Appropriate perhaps for quotations or the personal views of RS figures in limited circumstances, but that's about it. These websites have been criticised for clickbait and fake news from across the political spectrum, not just political opponents. The Skwawkbox's page notes that it has been used by Corbyn insiders to get its messages across, so there may be the occasional instance where it's relevant, but I'm not 100% sure on that one. Whatever the consensus view is on these sites, I do think they warrant a listing at the perennial sources page. --Bangalamania (talk) 08:38, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable for news. These serve the same niche in the eco system as Guido Fawkes (website) - just from the Left. The have all sorts of interesting leaks, intentional leaks, and breaking news - however the more noteworthy stuff gets picked up by mainline sources a few hours later (e.g. Guardian, Telegraph, BBC, etc.). In some cases they might have a notable opinion piece - and they are probably OK for that - but in most case they are WP:UNDUE (if you can't get it published somewhere else....) - it might be DUE in a more obscure article of ours if there is someone senior behind the op-ed. (they also have some very far-out news and oped pieces). In this academic book - Skwawkbox and The Canary are described as "dubious sites". In this academic book The Canary and Evolve Politics are described as producing "tabloid style hit-pieces". All these outlets -are part of a network of similar sites supportive of the Corbyn wing in Labour - . In this academic book and this one they are described as alt-left (for Americans reading this - in the US the alt-left isn't much of a thing - a myth even. In UK politics - things are flipped around - including Russian support (traditionally, and continuing today, to leftward elements in Labour) - much of what has been going on in the alt-right stateside, has been alt-left in the UK (of course - the UK has its own fascists - hard right - but they are enjoying (thankfully!) less popular support in the recent past). Icewhiz (talk) 13:18, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

A "Marxist critique"! Any port in a storm? A book written by two academics and published by a specialist in academic literature, certainly. It would be nice, though, if equal enthusiasm was shown for work produced by academics under the imprimatur of universities () who don't share the viewpoint of Bolton and Pitts. Note the bit in Political Communication in Britain just above where you linked to where it says:"A study conducted by LSE confirmed what many on the political left had suspected, finding coverage concerning Corbyn was disproportionately negative, and, while acknowledging the democratic importance of media scrutiny, deemed the print media to have regularly strayed beyond its purview as 'watchdog' to an 'attackdog' position."     ←   ZScarpia   19:04, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• Not reliable There is a difference between bias and propaganda.This a propaganda sites with fake news as shown in this thread --Shrike (talk) 19:22, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
• These sites are OK as far as they go, left POV and I would say exactly the same if they were right POV. The mainstream news is politicized right and left, so a little bit more right and left isn't going to make that much of a difference. They are kind of like a web based Fox News for the left, I don't regard them as propaganda, just ideologically driven. I would say use with caution.Selfstudier (talk) 13:04, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• Not generally reliable, and in particular The Canary is problematic - Private Eye has highlighted numerous issues relating to it over the last couple of years. Please note that being a member of IMPRESS means little. - Sitush (talk) 13:10, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose this whole RFC - we are supposed to assess three sources for reliability, regardless of what they are relied on for. Context matters and you haven't given us anything except "these sources are left wing and I think we should allow left wing sources". Answering this is inevitably going to involve a lot of "I like this"/"I don't like this" (for the record , I don't like these sources and don't think them particularly reliable) which renders the RFC pointless. FOARP (talk) 15:53, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
• I am quite familiar with the Skwawkbox and the Canary. The Skwawkbox is a valuable resource for information on the inner workings of the Labour Party. It does support Corbyn and is generally critical of what is calls the centrists and Blairites. It also publishes examples of state and corporate media bias against Corbyn. The Canary provides a useful perspective on current events. I have not seen any problems with the reliability of either outlet and would use both the Skwawkbox and the Canary as sources of information with attribution. I have not read Evolve enough to comment. Burrobert (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• I doubt that we would have considered Militant to be a reliable news source three decades ago when the Militant Tendency was doiong what it did and the activities of the present Momentum group, which these websites generally promote, is claimed to bear many similarities, in particular in terms of machinations for take-over of constituency parties and indeed the central party administrative and policy mechanisms. They're propaganda organs posing as news sources. - Sitush (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• Unreliable - Based on arguments presented above. From what I've read and seen, these sources may be skewing facts to confirm their worldview. Red flag for a source - it may suggest the source is propaganda or publishes information for some ulterior agenda. Kirbanzo ^{(userpage - talk - contribs)} 01:02, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
• All three are generally unreliable; I think Icewhiz hits the nail on the head when they describe them as "the Guido Fawkes of the Left". I'd even go so far as to deprecate the Skwawkbox (as well as Guido, FWIW): their assertion earlier this year that February has over 2,000 days shows that journalistic integrity is on a different planet to them. Sceptre (talk) 18:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

• The Canary - Reliable:

The Canary says about itself:

"We remain completely independent of any advertisers, funders, companies, political organisations, or political parties."

"Today, a handful of powerful moguls controls our mainstream media. As such, its coverage is largely conservative. But we have created a truly independent and viable alternative."

"In April 2019, The Canary became one of the first UK media outlets to be awarded a green trust mark for news credibility and transparency from monitoring and rating site Newsguard."

"Media Bias / Fact Check has also reviewed our website. It states that, “we rate The Canary Left biased based on story selection that typically favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record.”"

"As well as our Editor-in-Chief and Editors, Ed Sykes, our Sub Editor, maintains our high editorial standards with the help of three Copy Editors. Each article goes through a rigorous five gate process to check for accuracy."

"Unlike the mainstream press, which regulates itself, we are regulated by IMPRESS, the only independent press regulator in the UK. IMPRESS is the only regulator to be recognised by the UK government’s Press Recognition Panel. We adhere to the high journalistic standards set out in the IMPRESS Standards Code and are held to account if we ever fail to do so."

"We also have our own Code of Practice, which lays out the standards and ethical principles that guide our writers and editors whenever we make journalistic decisions."

"If you spot an error in any of our articles or you think we may have broken the standards set out in the code please see our corrections and complaints policy for information about how to contact us, the complaints process and how we publish corrections."

{more to follow}     ←   ZScarpia   16:03, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Source: http://climatecasechart.com/non-us-case/michael-mann-v-timothy-tim-ball-the-frontier-centre-for-public-policy-inc-and-john-doe/

Article: Tim Ball

Content:

On 22 August 2019 the court dismissed the action against defendant Ball,

on grounds of delay

.

Rakeroot (talk) 06:22, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

To clarify, my quesiton is: Is the source reliable for to the grounds of dismissal?

I don't find this information anywhere else. Rakeroot (talk) 08:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The insertion was here by Dave souza. The climatecasechart page says that is "According to the media and statements from Michael Mann and his lawyer" without pointing to what media and what statements, so could be depending on blogs and tweets (that's all I've seen about this detail so far). Poorly sourced. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:06, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Am inclined to agree that this source only presents hearsay in its statement that "According to the media and statements from Michael Mann and his lawyer, on August 22, 2019, the court dismissed the case on account of delay." On that basis, this isn't a reliable secondary source for the court's dismissal of the case. . . . dave souza, talk 14:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

I argue that, the fact that the case is dismissed is not disputed so the source could be used for this. Rakeroot (talk) 11:53, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• You know, I would say that site is RS for factual claims. It does not seem to editorialise, it is backed by a reputable and identified group of people, it comes under the auspices of Columbia Law School's Sabin Center for Climate Change Law, and it backs everything with citations to original material. So as a source of for a summary of the legal outcome of a case or filing, it is appropriate. Wikipedia doesn't apply the hearsay rule, because we're not a court. Guy (help!) 12:27, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

He Did Not Fear: Xusro Parviz, King of Kings of the Sasanian Empire

Not too sure about this one - it's first time I've seen this author. He seems to be relatively new in the academic world and quite young. The publisher is Gorgias Press. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The book meets rs. What that means is that we can assume the book is factual. An academic publisher has had other academics read it and chosen to publish it. That doesn't mean that the opinions or conclusions expressed in the book are necessarily significant, although they should be well-reasoned. TFD (talk) 22:14, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Can the website of the organization bestowing a literary award be used as a source for who received that award, and who was on the jury awarding it? Specifically asking for recipients of the Raja Rao Award formerly given by Samvad India Foundation (http://www.samvadindia.net). Thanks. Hyperbolick (talk) 05:17, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

• • Yes, provided the site is not user-generated but it does not prove notability of the award, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
    • Atlantic306, many thanks. I do have other sources for the notability. Website has a page for each award recipient with a very thorough biography, for example this biography of Yasmine Gooneratne. Want to be sure this is usable as one of the sources for these, though not as a sole source. Thanks again! Hyperbolick (talk) 14:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Hello everyone! I was wondering if this source here would be considered reliable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia? I would be using it for theLittle Eva: The Flower of the South article, and I would be specifically citing this sentence: "The creepiest, easily, is Little Eva, Flower of the South, an 1853 children’s book in which the title character is saved from drowning by Sam, a slave.".

The site is self-published through WordPress, but according to the about page here, Mark Athitakis has been published in both The New York Times and Washington Post. I know self-published blogs are generally not considered reliable, but I was wondering if this individual's other publications would his blog suitable for Wikipedia. I thinking more on the negative side, but I would like to get some feedback/input. Thank you! Aoba47 (talk) 04:21, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

In the article Jumbo Lake, it is asserted that

Lac Jumbo was officially named on 3 October 1972.

sourced to Lac Jumbo, Commission de toponymie de Quebec, retrieved 2019-09-01

The Commission de toponymie source shows a "date d'officialisation" which is presumably reliable for assertion that this lake was listed in their database of names on that date in 1972. However is it reliable for assertion that the lake was first officially named on that date? (Q1)

And, if experts here could please venture into notability as well, does it seem appropriate to include such a statement into every article about towns, cities, natural features in Canada? (Q2a) Or should the Commission de toponymie's date be mentionable only when the act of naming is shown to be notable in a different source, such as for a renaming of street to honor a fallen firefighter or whatever, when the source is commenting about the naming date specifically? (Q2b)

• Comment. (Adapted from discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jumbo Lake.) I believe that the statement is possibly completely false, if it is meant to establish the first official recognition of "Jumbo Lake" or "Lac Jumbo" for this lake. I believe that mentioning it at all is giving outrageous salience to a non-notable bureaucratic action, and is trivial beyond a degree acceptable to mentioned in an encyclopedia. It is true that The Commission de Toponymie source about Lac Jumbo does include "Date d'officialisation: 1972-10-03". But I do not believe at all that the lake was named in 1972. I think that was when the Toponymie commission added an entry into their database. This is similar to how WikiProject SHIPS editors incorrectly believed for a long time that a date entered into the DANFS database (or into some other U.S. ship commission office) was the christening date for a ship, when it could be shown by news reports sometimes that the launching of a ship and its christening happened on a different, earlier date. It turned out the DANFS database (or whatever) date was the date that a government unit got around to entering it into their database, only. Here, I disbelieve that this was the first official recognition of the name of this lake, and it is not worth mentioning that this was the date that one bureaucratic unit "recognized" it. I have some familiarity myself with another lake in Quebec, "Sixteen Island Lake", from well before the "officialisation" date in 1996 reported in Commission de Toponymie source about Lac-des-Seize-Îles (but maybe that is supposed to establish the official date for just the post office?). IMHO, there is no way in hell that this lake was not officially recognized in many ways, previously, before then, and before the 1968 date given in this other Commission de Toponymie source about Lac-des-Seize-Îles. For 16 Island Lake, the Wikipedia article mentions, based on other source(s) that its name was in use by 1898 for the post office. Am I "daft" for asserting that this sentence should obviously be removed from the article (and/or from an area article which may cover the topic of the lake)? It was asserted in the AFD that my view is "daft" and that "Government websites may have mistakes, but we generally treat them as reliable sources."

Thank you for considering this question. I think this is my first time raising questions at wp:RSN, so please forgive me and direct me if I should be posing this differently somehow. (Also should this be registered as an RFC somehow?) --Doncram (talk) 00:21, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

So, this is just my opinion, for the little it is worth, but I share your concerns about the bureaucratic nature of the labeling. That said, I also think it is inherently notable that the government is making these assertions (even if sometimes dubious). Thus, for me, the best middle road would seem to be using such statements with attribution, and presenting conflicting information where it is available. On the other hand, we need to be careful not to venture too far into WP:OR territory. Reasonable minds may differ. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 00:27, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. For another example, Édifice du Club-Universitaire-de-Montréal is about a club founded in 1906, whose building was built c.1912, and was listed as a monument historiques du Quebec on September 29, 1986. The "Date d'officialisation" is May 7, 2003. I don't think it is fair or appropriate to state the 2003 date in any way in an article about the club (long-needed, just created). --Doncram (talk) 00:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC) --01:52, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I do think you are a bit overthinking "date d'officialisation," as it seems to obviously simply mean the date said name was accepted by the Commission, and not the date of original naming or even government usage. Still, I understand the frustration. Dumuzid (talk) 00:39, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

The Commission de toponymie du Québec, a government agency, checks place names in Quebec and gives a stamp of approval. They say they made "Lac Jumbo" official in 1972. I see no reason to doubt them. There are over 2,000 citations to them, so we have a massive clean-up job if they are dodgy. Aymatth2 (talk) 02:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I have no special knowledge of this, but I share Dumuzid's skepticism. What name appeared on government maps pre-1972? It should be easy to check. If it is the same, isn't that also a form of official recognition? It would be best if a source is found that explains precisely what listing by the Commission means, rather than guessing. McKay (talk) 23:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I found an article from Ghion Journal. I can't be sure whether the source is appropriate for Cold War II (renamed as Second Cold War). The source has POV commentary against the US mainstream media. I don't know which other sources have the same view as that source. -- George Ho (talk) 07:16, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I am looking for clarification regarding scans of reliable sources on personal blogs. Specifically, would the scanned stories at https://dontparade.blogspot.com/2016/08/newsday-tv-book-august-6-12-1972.html qualify as "reliable" despite being hosted on blogger.

I reverted an editor for sourcing a claim sourced to the second image on the blog page on the basis of WP:BLOGS. However, the editor insists the original Newsday story is the source and not the blog. I can't find a policy or guideline addressing this issue directly but Youtube video clips are discussed by WP:NOYT: "YouTube and other video-sharing sites are generally not considered reliable sources because anyone can create or manipulate a video clip and upload without editorial oversight, just as with a self-published website. However, official channels of notable organisations, such as Monty Python's channel, may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed, or as a secondary source if they can be trace to a reliable publisher."

Following the advice at WP:NOYT would indicate that at screencap of a reliable source on a blog is not a reliable source. That said I highly doubt somebody has faked a screencap of a 50-year-old source about some uncontroversial information about a film so it is almost certainly a genuine rendering of the original news story. It is a essentially a DIY archive.

Is there a specific policy or guideline or general practice that governs this type of thing? Betty Logan (talk) 09:50, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

In the case of Robert Stewart (saxophonist) there was a personal webpage with pressclippings, including WaPo, JazzTimes etc. Editors at the time felt these could be used to some extent, citing the publication, not the webpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:02, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Since these stories are from 1972, and there is no indication that the owner of the Blogger (RSP entry) blog has the right to republish the Newsday content, I would consider this to be copyright infringement. Per WP:COPYLINK, we should never link to material that infringes copyright. You can still cite the original Newsday articles, and it would be best if you could confirm the contents of the articles from a more trusted source (e.g. the actual Newsday book, or a trusted database like Newspapers.com or NewspaperArchive – available through The Wikipedia Library, and can be linked to), since it's difficult to determine if these scans are altered. However, don't link (or provide a URL) to the blog in the citation. — Newslinger talk 10:22, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• See this resource regarding Newspaper copyrights. It's pretty handy. I agree that the citation should be the actual source not the blog. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:02, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks for the information! We don't know whether there is a copyright notice on the media (without access to the original media) since only part of the documents were photographed and shared, but I can't conclusively say that it's a copyright violation from what is presented in the blog. — Newslinger talk 16:42, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Something to remember here, the citation is not the link or the URL. The citation is the bibliographic information that allows someone else to find the original source. For a book or a newspaper article or something like that, it doesn't need to be online. If it is, and is available in a clean link unencumbered by copyright violations, a link is a nice thing, but you don't have to link to a direct copy of a source for a valid citation. Just give the full bibliographic details and you're fine. If you found it as a copyvio scan on a blog, don't tell anyone. Just cite the original article and leave it at that. You're fine. --Jayron32 14:52, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• One caution... it is not difficult to manipulate documents. Copies found on unreliable websites may not be “true to the original”. Always try to find and cite the original. Blueboar (talk) 15:21, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• We have an essay WP:Convenience link that explains the issues. I think the main points are: (1) Someone has to check that the copy matches the original; (2) Don't link to copyvios. McKay (talk) 23:17, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The BLP in question is Igor Ashurbeyli and the website is here. The micronation is Asgardia (a bit of a mess that I cleaned up a bit - mainly sourced to its website and a journal where he is editor-in-chief run by something he founded, Asgardia Independent Research Center). It looks as though it is used in other BLPs as well. As a side issue, why can't I find the articles using ROOM and asgardia.space with External links search? I'm dubious about either of these being used as sources. Doug Weller talk 10:38, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I do not see any information where that site is used on its own, or at least it is always part of a string of over-citation so there is really no need to keep it. To answer your question though, I would say it could be used with the same restrictions as an ABOUTSELF source. I would not use it as a source for his receipt of The State Science and Technology Prize or Gold UNESCO Medal. Jbh ^Talk 13:46, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Concur with JBH. For non-controversial ABOUTSELF claims it's probably fine. For anything significant, no. Simonm223 (talk) 13:48, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

There is currently an RfC Talk:Andy_Ngo#RfC:_Do_sources_support_calling_Ngo's_statements_on_the_hammer_attack_"false"? at Andy Ngo that may be of interest to people who participate on this noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 12:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd like some help with some critical information added to the Helen Caldicott article. My problem is with the final paragraph in the "Early activity" section. It uses one source, Benjamin Redekop, who had his article "'Physicians to a dying planet’: Helen Caldicott, Randall Forsberg, and the anti-nuclear weapons movement of the early 1980s" published in The Leadership Quarterly. I've not been able to access his article but I did find this: I'd guess that his estimation of Caldicott is right on, so that's not the problem. My problem is with calling him a historian and using what I believe to be cherry picked critical comments from his article which actually was about leadership styles. What do you think? Gandydancer (talk) 19:02, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source for stating that the occurrence of the West African crocodile in the Guelta d'Archei is a consequence of the African humid period? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:50, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

The book, Sulla: A Dictator Reconsidered, by Lynda Telford, published by Pen & Sword. I have found no mention of her having a specialization in any field and her writing appears to be that of more popular history than academic. Telford has also authored, Tudor Victims of the Reformation, Women in Medieval England, and Women of the Vatican: Female Power in a Male World.

Does anyone have any information concerning this author? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:38, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

• Pen & Sword is considered a mid quality popular history press. Telford doesn't seem to have any academic degree in history, so I would say fine for non-controversial information, use with caution for any disputed areas and avoid giving undue weight to opinions. Academic presses are usually the gold standard for history articles. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 00:08, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

The subject has been discussed at Talk:Gas van/Archive 1#An eyewitness account. The source in question is an article by Alexander Lipkov entitled Я к вам травою прорасту… Роман свидетельств, i.e., I will sprout grass on you. Novel of Evidence. It has been published in the Russian-Language magazine Kontinent in 2005. According to an entry on Johnson’s list, it is a Literary Quarterly publishing “stories, narratives and short novels”. Lipkov is an author of books and documentaries. The texts mainly consists of interviews recorded during the filming of the documentary “I will sprout grass to you ...”, directed by A. Kolesnikov, 2005. This publication is used to support the following claim in the article on Gas vans

“According to an eyewitness, the executioners used multiple large trucks, each loaded with up to 50 naked people, some of which still remained alive upon arrival to the firing range.”

There is an additional note explaining:

The eyewitness, a former NKVD officer, was interviewed by Lidia Golovkova, the principal compiler of the Butovo memorial books, and by former FSB officer Mikhail Kirillin, who was a member of a group to rehabilitate victims of Stalinist repressions. According to a driver of such truck, the gassing was necessary to exclude the possibility of a riot.

My objection with this source is, that it does not include the actual “eyewitness account”. Rather it presents an interview with Lidia Golovkova and Mikhail Kirillin who report what the “eyewitness” has told them. They provide some biographical information, but neither the name of the “eyewitness”, nor any details, when, where and under what circumstances they collected the information. I consider that to be an unreliable primary source which should not be used as a source for Wikipedia in accordance with WP:PRIMARY.--Assayer (talk) 15:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Attribution would be best, "according to... an eyewitness...".Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

• Kontinent seems like a reasonable source for an interview, but yeah, I would suggest an in-text attribution. Interviews, I believe, are citable for yes, someone said this and it's WP:DUE, and the framing text can be used to establish their credentials (ie. yes, he is an eyewitness)... but they don't necessarily do fact-checking for the things people say. So that's a valid source for "an eyewitness said that they saw X" (or maybe even "an eyewitness quoted in Y said that they saw X"), but not for the fact that X is unambiguously true. --Aquillion (talk) 16:16, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
• I think the journal and the author are fine and qualify as a secondary RS, but it is the best to provide direct citation and direct attribution. Also, one should double check where the claim originally comes from because the original source has been explicitly quoted ("...") in the secondary source. In one case, the original claim comes from Golovkova who was described in RS this, "a principal compiler of the Butovo memorial books". In another case, the original claim comes from Alexander Mikhailov, Major-General of the FSB Reserve: . My very best wishes (talk) 18:46, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

in this case, Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. People's recollections of events decades ago are frequently poor. TFD (talk) 03:50, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

I think in this case we should not consider the reliability of the eyewitness, but that of Lidia Golovkova and Mikhail Kirillin. If they are telling us that this is a trustworthy story given their research on the subject, we don't need to check that ourselves, nor do we even need access to the primary source. We just need to ask what their reputation is. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:00, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

This is not an "exceptional claim", but a claim consistent with all other sources on the subject, i.e. all sources that tell anything about Soviet gas vans. The only difference with other sources are a few details. My very best wishes (talk) 13:53, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if that was a publication by Golovka and/or Kirillin on the subject, preferably with proper footnotes and sources, but it isn't. This is Golovka and Kirillin narrating what they know about the subject, stating that an eyewitness helped them to find out about the details what had happened at Butova. Without any information about the origin of the interview, without identification of the primary source, these claims are not verifyable. Nevertheless, if I understand the discussion correctly, in the article the claim should be attributed to Golovka/Kirillin instead to an "eyewitness", shouldn't it?--Assayer (talk) 18:06, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this is a narrative by Golovkova. However, she tells this is according to words by an NKVD officer (an eyewitness) who was a direct participant of these events. She and Kirillin said who he was and briefly described his biography. He was the key person who helped them to discover the Butovo firing range. My very best wishes (talk) 21:12, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

It's ordinary in this type of situation for journalists and similar to not reveal the primary source of information, but this does not make the content unverifiable in Wikipedia-speak. That policy does not require us to be able to track down the ultimate source, and it should not either, when there is a good reason to expect a secret. If, as suggested by MVBW, this person helped G&K find that firing range, this directly shows that they didn't just seek to make a documentary of what people told them - they actually looked into what they were told to obtain both new and corroborating information. Basically, they were engaged in investigative journalism. So the question for us is whether G&K are reliable for that, in which case their validation of the primary source is sufficient. If the claim is not exceptional, it doesn't even necessarily need attribution. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:41, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

My very best wishes, your position that anything said by a former NKVD officer must be credible is not the standard required by reliable sources. It seems to me that you are willing to believe anything they say when it supports your beliefs. The only reliable source that mentions the topic says, "Isai D. Berg, a cutthroat section chief of the Moscow NKVD, ginned up a gas chamber on wheels, an airtight lorry camouflaged as a bread van that suffocated internees with engine fumes on the drive out to Butovo." It is sourced to an article in Komsomolskaya Pravda (a tabloid in the Soviet Union!), October 28, 1990, p. 2. The non-reliable sources used in the article embellish the story so that Berg was supervisor of a fleet of vans. But no other reliable source has paid any attention to the story, which means it is not reliable, because "Red flags that should prompt extra caution include...surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources." A google book search reveals four references to Berg: Cotton's book, a book with an excerpt from his book, a book from a non-academic publisher, probably sourced to Cotton's book and the Wikipedia article. I don't even think that we can reliably state that Berg himself ever existed. TFD (talk) 23:53, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh no, this page currently does not refer at all to "Komsomolskaya Pravda". It uses 8 other RS including publications by academics and reputable historians in the part about Soviet gas vans (+ 2 more RS are noted on talk page). There are no doubts that Berg actually existed because some sources (including this one under discussion) tell about his criminal case kept in the Soviet archives, where the involvement of Berg in the use of gas vans has been officially recorded and discussed. If he was an actual "inventor" of the gas vans is less clear. My very best wishes (talk) 00:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I know the article doesn't refer to Komsomolskaya Pravda, which is a good thing because it pushes anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. But it's the source that the only reliable source in the article cites for its information. It turns out though that the NKVD officer did exist, but he is referred to as "Isaiah Berg." TFD (talk) 03:14, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Kontinent, two things must be taken into account. First, according to the introduction, the author is a writer who specialized in cinematography. Furhermore, according to him, the text is a collection of eyewitness testimonies, and the author does not claim he did any fact checking. Therefore, it would be correct to see it as a collection of primary sources.

Second. Among the testimonies, I found the following statement:

"And the testimony of Berg himself, no matter what he says about himself, is by no means evidence. Maybe they knocked them out of him in the same way as he knocked them out of others at one time."

That means that, although the interrogation protocol looks reasonable, and Berg really directed exhaust fumes to a van(s) to prevent possible resistance of the victims, formally speaking, the interrogation protocol can be trusted at the same extent as a protocol of interrogation of Bukharin or Tukhachevsky.

That means Berg's interrogation protocol, the only document Komsomolskaya pravda article is based upon should be treated with caution. And, accordingly, that undermines a credibility of all other sources that are based solely on that KP article, including Solzhenitsyn, Albatz, Merridale, etc.

I think this book may be used in the article about the Great Purge as an example of an overall brutality of those time events, although it is desirable to double check these facts if possible.

In general, I would prefer to wait until this information is published in some good peer-reviewed scholarly journal before adding this content to Wikipedia. By using such poor quality sources for writing about such serious topics as the Great Purge, we make Wikipedia sensationalistic and journalistic in a worst sense, thereby undermining a credibility to this resource in general. Yes, some local newspaper may be a good source for an article about some High school, however, it is hardly a good source for an article about Uncertainty Principle. The articles about serious and important topics require serious sources, otherwise noone will trust Wikipedia.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:59, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

The more I am reading the less this story seems clear to me. One testimony says:

"A thorough reconciliation was carried out in this reception building: whether the person who was brought is the one who was sentenced. There were so many namesakes that there were mistakes, and it happened that a man was sentenced to be shot, and they were shot after 3-4 weeks, because another was brought instead. There was even a unique case when a person was written that he was a Pole, and he was able to prove that he was Russian. And the decision of the “troika” was canceled."(...)"Screening of documents was carried out very carefully. Without a photograph, a person was not accepted. In each document it was written that photography is obligatory: the person checked against the photograph. And here, as the former commandant told, the decision was announced to the sentenced. You can imagine what was happening there after that."

That means after the victims arrived to the execution place, they were subjected to a strict identification procedure before they were shot, and, in some rare cases they were released. That would be impossible if they were suffocated to death during transportation. All of that is very odd...--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:29, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

First of all, the quotation above ("A thorough reconciliation ...) is irrelevant because it is not about people who were transported by gas vans, but about people who were shot at the firing range (most people were simply shot after transportation by ordinary trucks, according tho this and other sources about Butovo firing range). Secondly, no one suggested to include the testimony by Berg to the page. And yes, his case by itself is not a proof of anything. No one tells it's a proof. We only know from this source (according to Golobkova) the following. In 1953, the family of Berg filed for rehabilitation. Then his case was reviewed, and the gas van story came to light. Several executioners, who were then all alive, were called and interviewed. Two of them admitted that gas vans were used, but two others denied it. My very best wishes (talk) 01:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

"That means Berg's interrogation protocol...". This is all original research. For example, there is no any reason or sources to assume that the claims in books by Albats and Solzhenitsyn were based exclusively on a publication in the tabloid, even if they used it as one of references ([...]). None of these books directly quotes the article in Komsomolskaya Pravda. Instead, the experts tell their own views (Albats: Owning to the shortage of executioners, Chekists used trucks that were camouflaged as bread vans as mobile death chambers. Yes, the very same machinery made notorious by the Nazis - yes, these trucks were originally a Soviet invention, in use years before the ovens of the Auschwitz were built). We are not in the business of speculating how exactly experts or historians on the subject came to their conclusions. We simply say what RS (their books) say. My very best wishes (talk) 02:23, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Apparently, the first English article about the Soviet gas vans was written by holocaust-denier Udo Walendy in 1991. and it has been the subject of extensive literature by holocaust deniers. It feeds into their world view: not only didn't the Nazis gas anyone but the Jews did. Basically all we have is a few second or third hand stories which have only been taken seriously in one reliable source, which is a red flag. Why don't Rummel, Valentino, Courtois and all the other writers on Stalin's mass killings mention it? Probably because they have a higher standard of reliability than we apply to the article. TFD (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

There's an article about this on "Holocaust Controversies," an anti-denialist website founded by Nicholas Terry, a senior lecturer in history at Exeter. See "A Study In Hypocrisy: The "Revisionist" Treatment Of The "Soviet Gas Vans"". It makes the point that there is insufficient evidence to determine whether or not the claim is true. TFD (talk) 05:06, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

What exactly is the claim that Nicholas Terry is saying there is insufficient evidence to prove one way or another? He states:

’’”Needless to say, it was a one-time, local, makeshift invention, not widely used. There is no credible evidence that its use was well-known at the time and it certainly has no relation to the well-documented Nazi gas vans.”’’

Terry seems to accept that Soviet gas vans did in fact exist, but were not well known or used on the same scale as Nazi gas vans. So what exactly is the issue here? —Nug (talk) 07:12, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Terry seems to accept Soviet gas vans probably existed, but it is hard to tell anything for sure. That contradicts to the claim that that fact was firmly established and well described in reputable scholarly sources.--Paul Siebert (talk) 07:44, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Nug, that's out of context. Terry means that if the vans existed, it was one time etc. That's clear from the preceding comments: "The evidence on which the claim is based is reviewed in L. Golovkova (ed.) et al., Butovskij Poligon: 1937-1938. V Rodnom Kraju; Dokumenty, Svidetel'stva, Sud'by, Vol. 8, Moscow, 2004, pp. 72ff. The authors had access to all the relevant files and don't make any conclusion as to the historicity of the gas vans....Leading deniers accept the "Soviet gas vans" story based on rumors, hearsay, and unsourced statements of various people who don't even pretend to be witnesses....The nature of the sources does not permit us to make "strong" conclusions. And neither can this evidence be dismissed." TFD (talk) 12:34, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I think the book by Golovkova (ed.) et al., Butovskij Poligon: 1937-1938. V Rodnom Kraju is a valid source, just as one discussed in this thread. If anyone has access to this book and can directly quote what it actually tells on the subject, that can be included on the page. I assume her statements in the book will be consistent with her statements in the source under discussion. Are you saying that the book holocaust-denier Udo Walendy need to be used for references on the page? None of other ~10 sources about Soviet gas vans even mentioned this book. My very best wishes (talk) 14:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

However, the link to "A Study In Hypocrisy..." is just a blog post by someone who claimed to be "Sergey Romanov". This should be completely ignored, unless reliably published. Whatever it tells about work by Golovkova, etc. can be just a fantasy by someone on the internet. My very best wishes (talk) 19:44, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I sure saw that coming.... Well, that blog has been frequently cited by historians like Mark Hobbs in the The Routledge History of Genocide, and Gordon Thomas/Greg Lewis, Defying Hitler. Nicolas Terry has also edited a volume on Holocaust and Genocide Denial for Routledge in 2017. So, that's not the usual kind of blog.

For example, there is no any reason or sources to assume that the claims in books by Albats and Solzhenitsyn were based exclusively on a publication in the tabloid, even if they used it as one of references One of the oddest arguments I have ever heard. As if historians just name or don't name their sources at will. Well, the article in the tabloid is the only reference given by Solzhenitsyn, Albats and Colton. Solzhenitsyn even writes, that he learned about the gas vans "from the astonishing disclosure in 1990".--Assayer (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Do you propose to use this blog as a source on the page? We can't even if it was cited by someone else. Books (like "The Routledge History of Genocide", or "Defying Hitler" you mentioned) can of course be cited if they tell something about the Soviet gas vans. My very best wishes (talk) 00:39, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Conversely if books like the Routledge History of Genocide don't mention it, then there is little reason why we should. Terry's blog, which is rs per WP:SELFPUB, tells us that the story has received very little coverage in reliable sources (although it is widely cited in anti-Semitic and anti-Communist literature), and fact-checkers would rate it as "unproved." It is certainly a red flag. I don't therefore see any reason to include it. The second hit for gas vans isai berg on Google search after this article is a right-wing blog that says, "Another Jewish mass murderer was Isai Berg, As it turns out, Berg invented the mobile gas chamber, which he used to murder opponents of the Holodomor." The rest of the hits are pretty much the same, except for Terry's website. It's certainly something that one would be very likely to read about if one got all one's information from relevant mainstream sources. TFD (talk) 10:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I think this search is more trustworthy. --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

• If subject X was NOT included in an encyclopedia or a book, this simply means it was considered as a low-importance subject by authors, nothing more. Yes, this is arguably a low-significance subject. Google searches tell the same. But it does not mean there are no sources on the subject. The specific sources have been provided. If I understand correctly, no one suggests using the blog. Yes, it is WP:SELFPUB, but not by Terry. It was signed and posted by this user . My very best wishes (talk) 16:26, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Going back to the beginning of this story, I would like to see examples of analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from the memoirs collected by Lipkov. By its style, and even a name, it is a compilation of testimonies, i.e. it is a primary source. The very title of this book ("Novel of evidences") implies the author does not pretend he presents his own analysis. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:40, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

• In re: there is no any reason or sources to assume that the claims in books by Albats and Solzhenitsyn were based exclusively on a publication in the tabloid, even if they used it as one of references -- what other sources did they use? --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:12, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

There IS a reason to claim that Solzhenitsyn used only the KP article as a source. That automatically follows from Solzhenitsyn's own words. Here is a full quote:

"А вот поразительное промелькнувшее в 1990 сообщение, из которого мы узнали, что знаменитые душегубки изобретены, оказывается, вовсе не у Гитлера во Вторую Мировую войну – а в советском НКВД в 1937. И изобрёл их (да не в одиночку, наверно, но организатор изобретения был он) – Исай Давидович Берг, начальник АХО (адмхозотдела) УНКВД Московской области. Вот почему бывает важно знать, кто занимал вовсе и не верхние посты. А получилось так. И. Д. Бергу было поручено исполнять решения "тройки" УНКВД МО – и Берг исправно выполнял поручение: возил на расстрелы. Но когда в Московской области стали заседать одновременно три "тройки" – уже справиться было расстрельщикам невозможно. Тогда и догадались: жертв раздевать догола, связывать, затыкать рты и бросать в закрытый грузовик, снаружи замаскированный под хлебный фургон. На перегоне выхлопные газы шли внутрь грузовика – и до дальнего рва арестанты были уже "готовенькие". (Надо сказать, что и сам Берг вскоре был расстрелян, в 1939, – но не за эти злодейства, разумеется, а по обвинению в "заговоре". И в 1956 – благополучно реабилитирован, хотя в следственном деле его и тогда хранилась, и дохранилась вот до новейшего времени, и прочтена журналистами – история этого душегубного изобретения!)[883]"

Google translates it quite adequately, so I don't show a translation here. Only the first sentence and the ref 883 are important here. The first sentence says: "But the astonishing message that flashed in 1990, from which we learned that the famous dushegubkas were invented (....) in the Soviet NKVD in 1937.", and the ref 883 is Zhirnov's article in Komsomolskaya pravda, 1990. That means Solzhenitsyn explicitly writes that all information he was operating was taken from that 1990 article by Zhirnov.

In my opinion, Solzhenitsyn is a good source, and very useful one, for it demonstrates that Solzhenitsyn didn't know anything about Soviet gas vans before 1990.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:00, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I agree: this citation shows that Solzhenitsyn used the article in Komsomolskaya pravda as his source. Was it his only source? I do not know because he tells "by journalists" (plural). But you are missing the point: the book by Solzhenitsyn is a lot more reliable source than the article in Komsomolskaya pravda - per WP:RS. Therefore, we should use his book as a source. My very best wishes (talk) 19:04, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

• • Non-RS for the purpose of the article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 17:34, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

In 1990, when the first article about gas vans appeared, Komsomolskaya_Pravda was printed in tabloid format, but years passed before it descended to tabloid journalism.     ←   ZScarpia   05:01, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• Reliable. Seems this section has gone off topic, discussing other sources like Solzhenitsyn. Agree with the initial comments by third parties at the start of this section, Kontinent appears to be a valid source for interviews, with appropriate attribution. --Nug (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello everyone, I was wondering if Private Wealth Magazine could be considered reliable, I wanted to use this article[Rocks & Wealth] on my draft about a female CEO. Does it count as reliable and independent or is it PR work? MasterWikiEdit (talk) 21:12, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

MasterWikiEdit, I don't see any past discussion on this noticeboard of that particular magazine, but that article does not look reliable at all to me - it's absolutely PR and reads as an interview thinly disguised as an "article". You can potentially use it under the WP:ABOUTSELF policy with caution for coverage of minor, noncontroversial details (say, the subject's hometown or alma mater). creffett (talk) 00:10, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Is this ref...

https://twitter.com/MrTeller/status/1158152584642777089

...reliable for this edit?

birth_name = Raymond Joseph Teller --> birth_name = Raymond Joseph Derrikson Teller

Most other references disagree.

Could he have been exaggerating -- adding his mother's name -- for effect? Using both parent's names on a birth certificate was pretty rare in 1948. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Given the tweet is in context of a joke (the airline reservation aspect), definitely take with grain of salt until it is confirmed in a separate post by Teller or another RS. This is the general problem with Twitter is that in 140 characters (even in context of other tweets), intent is easily lost, and it hard to tell if Teller - who is known in comedy - is being serious or not. I would leave out. --Masem (t) 15:13, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• I would say it shouldn't be used. WP:ABOUTSELF would normally allow uncontroversial details, but the fact that it contradicts secondary sourcing makes it WP:EXCEPTIONAL. --Aquillion (talk) 18:39, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I reverted it and so far the IP has not re-reverted. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:21, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

I've seen some URLs that have "bbs" included.

Here's a site example. Some BC links I've seen have little or no information on the photos posted. Ominae (talk) 02:52, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello fellow editors. I would like your advice and opinion regarding an edit I made. I have recently added information in the aftermath section of the page Al-Qaeda insurgency in Yemen that talks about Security Belt operation against AQAP in 2018 in an operation called Crushing Revenge. I had added the information in that article but I was reverted by a user called sharabsalam. He first told me that the article talks about Al qaeda insurgency till 2011, in which I have explained that this information is about the aftermath (the aftermath section talks about AQAP details from 2012-2019, listing multiple battles and outcomes of the insurgency since 2011). He then proceeded to tell me that this information is from an UAE propaganda outlet and cannot be trusted, and reverted me again. Even though however, my edit had another source from sanaacenter.org . He has still reverted my edit regardless on basis of "propaganda". On further research I also found a UN experts document that talks about the operation [https://www.securitycouncilreport.org › ...PDF S/2019/83 - Security Council Report] that also mentions the operation against AQAP. The most detailed information on that operation however comes from The National source.

I don't know what sharabsalam means when he says its a propaganda source even though it talks about two different factions (security belt forces and AQAP), not UAE. He also mentioned in my talkpage about UAE lieing about the operation and actually paying AQAP to look like they won, but that source is in a totally different battle! (Battle of Mukalla in 2016)... it has nothing to do with the information I added which talks about an operation against AQAP in 2018.

I would like your ask your advice here as I was advised to do so by a very kind editor (El C). Is the national source reliable? Are my edits in that page acceptable or is sharabsalam right to revert all my edits there?

Please let me know if there is something wrong with the way I am writing information in wikipedia. I would appreciate any helping rope here. Thanks. Graull (talk) 10:07, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• The source in question is The National (Abu Dhabi). While there is some evidence to conclude that the paper is a de facto UAE propaganda outlet, that doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be used. (The "controversies" section mentions censorship, but not false information or fabricated stories). I would put it in a similar category as RT, and you should try to find a second source for the information if possible. The Sana Center appears to be reasonably reliable, but like other think tanks probably needs to be attributed in-text. Overall, I think your additions were reasonable although you should have an inline citation for the first paragraph. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 10:51, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes thank you! I agree with you on the source bring similar to RT. Going with a similar mindset, then we should also ban RT, Aljazeera, foxnews and other pro governmemt sources which is ridiculous I will add the UN experts source into the edit I made as well as follow your advice and add an inline text. I will re-add my edit. The user who is against my add is welcome to discuss here why he thinks that adding this information is so wrong. Graull (talk) 16:30, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• I am currently outside. I will give full response when I am free. The national is government-owned newspaper there is no way you can compare it to Fox news. The security belt forces is a UAE-backed forces. This is why I opjected.--SharabSalam (talk) 17:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I might have agreed with you if it was the only source, however the operation was mentioned by the Sana center, criticalthreats.org, and the UN security council report!! I have supplemented by edit with all these sources. It's also mentioned in multiple Arabic sources (not UAE owned or based, so you won't say it's also propaganda).. It's clearly sourced so you can't just claim it's a fabrication because one of the sources is query propaganda.

Also, I saw your edit history and in 2019 Najran attack there's sources from pro-Iranian Al Alam TV as well as multiple other places were you have said that Iranian/Houthi claims are reliable (such as Houthis denying antisemitism and Houthis victory over Saudi in operation victory from God). You also removed a BBC source that said the Houthis videos failed to show victory because according to you the Houthis released more information. No one said the operation is fabricated and deleted all that information because information came from "propaganda source" even though multiple reliable sources such as the BBC and Guardian questioned the Houthis operation claims. You can't just remove a source because you don't like it. If you have a source that questions the claims you can add it, but not delete the whole thing because you don't like it. Graull (talk) 05:13, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi everyone, For sometime now, we have been dealing with a group of users with POV using non reliable-"sources" in Rojava and pretty much all related articles (see corresponding template). Most of these "sources" are not neutral and have Conflict of Interest issues, including news agencies. Below are some examples for stories and sources in question:

• ARA News
• Hawar News
• Rudaw
• ANF News
• New Compass
• Wordpress
• Open Democracy
• Kurdistan24

And many many more. I am not exaggerating if I say the legitimacy of that article is based on these sources. There have been multiple attempts at resolving some credibility, notability and OR issues in the article, but a group of users are simply not allowing any compromise to happen. Is there a way to look into this? Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

• OpenDemocracy has already been discussed at RSN, here: discussion concluded that it can be used for attributed statements of opinion per WP:RSOPINION, but did not establish a reputation for fact-checking. Wordpress sources are almost never usable because WP:SPS. I don't know anything about the others.

Don't assume that because a source has political bias that it can't be used. Accuracy matters more; see WP:PARTISAN. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 06:40, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks for your input. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:20, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Also it's somewhat inaccurate to say that Rojava Report is sourced to "Wordpress" - it probably isn't a WP:RS but it's pretty clearly billing itself as a news portal rather than a blog or opinion outlet. Its URL is somewhat unprofessional, but is largely immaterial. Plenty of major newspapers use a Wordpress platform. Simonm223 (talk) 11:59, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

During the first FAC of Mullum Malarum, this book was rejected as RS. Vensatry said, "Although [Pride of Tamil Cinema] had won a special mention at the 62nd National Film Awards, it looks like a WP:MIRROR, as the book paraphrases stuff from Wikipedia articles and the NFA archives of Directorate of Film Festivals." Co-ordinator Utcursch said, "Pride of Tamil Cinema explicitly mentions Wikipedia articles as its sources. It also cites some websites that would be considered questionable by WP:RS standards. Therefore, its use as a reference in an FA is questionable." When I raised this issue some years ago, Utcurshs' view remained unchanged. However, recently Fowler&fowler said, "Dhananjayan's mention of Wikipedia means that he read the Wikipedia page, and may have been influenced by it, may have included some content, or meta-content, from it somewhere, but not in verbatim form. It doesn't outright invalidate the use of the book in a Wikipedia article." (read more here) In fact, the Mullum Malarum chapter in the book did not copy from Wiki at all. So what to do? Who's right? Is the book usable to any extent? --Kailash29792 (talk) 09:04, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Utcursch, you got time? --Kailash29792 (talk) 12:02, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, there are some parts of the book that don't rely on Wikipedia, and can be used as a source. But I haven't read the book (or have access to a copy), so I can't say if it's suitable as a source in a particular context. The use of this book as a source is best discussed on the article talk page in a given context. utcursch | talk 14:07, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Utcursch, yes. Some films in the book did not have Wiki articles before the book was published, such as Uchi Veyil and Meendum Oru Kaathal Kathai. Should I scan those pages and share as proof? Ditto with other chapters which did not copy from Wiki? --Kailash29792 (talk) 13:42, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

This is best discussed on the article talk pages on a case to case basis. You can use the book as a source, and drop a note on the article's talk page to see if someone has objections or has a better source. Uploading scanned pages would be copyright violation. utcursch | talk 13:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Is Livefist Defence a reliable source? I think it is. It is edited by senior India Today journalist Shiv Aroor, who can be credited with getting hold of the first footage of the highly secretive K4 SLBM.— Vaibhavafro ^💬 16:10, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Is Cheddar (TV channel) a reliable source? Most sources that would cite Cheddar are video news casts. The specific page that brought me here was Draft:GameMine, which used as a source to try to prove notability. I get the feel that sponsor content on the platform may not be well disclosed/is cleverly integrated to look like real content. Your thoughts and research on the matter are appreciated. Captain Eek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 22:00, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

• Brand integration and other native advertising means that we can't guarantee that its coverage of any product is independent. If it's not independent you might as well be citing press releases, so I can't really see the use of the source. I wouldn't count it for establishing notability (unless you can prove that the coverage in question isn't native advertising). Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 05:30, 18 October 2019 (UTC)