Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 384

I was curious why I didn't notice that Jacobin was moved from yellow to green. The fall 2021 RfC certainly looked like a "considerations apply" closing but it was closed as an upgrade from yellow to green . Does this seem like a reasonable close? I think even the closing editor, Joe Roe closed it in a way that suggested a "considerations apply" close while saying generally reliable. I think the several month gap between the expiration of the RfC in Aug 2021 vs the closing in Feb 2022 made it easy to miss the closing. Looking for additional input. Springee (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

6 months is too long to wait to challenge a close. If there were a problem with this close, it would have been raised much earlier. You should open an new RFC if you have new evidence that would change the result. Andre🚐 23:49, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd also suggest talking to the closer beforehand, if clarification on their statement is what you want. To me, it seems quite clear that, while the source is WP:BIASED, it is no less reliable than other "green" sources. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 00:02, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree Andre🚐 00:11, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

The close changed the source from a reasonable "considerations apply" to green even though the majority of editors said 2 or 3 (generally unreliable). Springee (talk) 00:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I see. My reading of this thread was that you wanted some clarification, but my recommendation is still valid. If you think their close was erroneous, you might be able to persuade them to amend or undo it (though that seems difficult considering how long it's been), or they might be able to better explain how they reached their conclusion. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 00:22, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Isabelle, thanks for the suggestion. I think clarification might be the right path. My read is Joe's closing is what I would think of as a "be careful" source. Going on what ScottishFinnishRadish said below, the problem with the 3 color system is we don't leave much room for the nuance that can come from the discussion. As an example, a local small town paper might always get the facts right but just because they mention it doesn't make it DUE in a article. Thus they are reliable but a source of limited weight. Conversely, a source like Jacobin might start with a reasonably reliable set of fact but their method to select "important" vs "unimportant" details may be heavily skewed thus their analysis may be problematic. If it is balanced against an alternative analysis of a given set of facts it may be useful but if it's the only analysis we should be careful least we treat that analysis/opinion as "true". If they say "Mr Smith wanted his company to fail.[primary claim] He was unable to pay his state taxes.[supporting fact 1] He also didn't pay a subcontractor.[supporting fact 2]" We would have to treat the "wanted his company to fail" claim as their opinion, not as fact since it doesn't inherently fall out of the supporting facts. We can treat the supporting facts as true but we can't assume full context is included. Yeah, yet again I think the RSP list would be better if we didn't try to rank but did include the descriptive summaries. Springee (talk) 01:28, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

What is the tone limit for a close review? My concern here is the close was done well after the RfC ended. This is especially problematic if the RfC was archived then revived Springee (talk) 00:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter what your concerns are, it's out of order. You haven't even contacted the closer or notified them of this noticeboard post. If you have some evidence that Jacobin isn't reliable, start an RFC. Andre🚐 00:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I pinged them here and asked how to handle things. Springee (talk) 00:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

You've gotten the right advice already, but no one has yet linked you to WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Step one is discussion at the closer's user talk page. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:36, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I think that's more a problem with RSP, and looking at the color rather than the actual discussion and close. Any time something is reduced to a three color system some context and subtlety will be lost. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I would agree. I agree with much of the closing but I would interpret that closing as a "other considerations apply" because of the comments included. Springee (talk) 01:29, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

You can interpet it however you want, I suppose, but considering I included the words "Jacobin is [...] generally reliable" at the top of my close, that clearly wasn't my intent. – Joe (talk) 09:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, in looking at the closing I do have a concern about how this was handled. The RfC was archived 2 Sept 2021 . The RfC was never restored for closing. Instead it was closed in the archive itself . This would make it much harder for people who might follow RSN but not bother following the closing review pages or the archive page to see a close or close review was initiated. If nothing else shouldn't we have a rule that you don't mess with archives, you need to restore something to the active noticeboard page before reviewing the close? Springee (talk) 02:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Funnily, I just recently closed an archived RfC. I didn't think much about it, but now I wonder if it would be worth to create a topic here or at the talk page to announce the closure to the broader community that watches this noticeboard. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 02:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it is sufficient to update WP:RSP or other FAQ pages with the diff of the closure, it doesn't need to be announced on the noticeboard as well, IMHO. There's also nothing wrong with closing an archived RFC, AFAIK. There is, however, something wrong with contesting a closure this long after it took place. Though I'm not sure if that's written down in policy anywhere. Andre🚐 02:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

As Isabelle noted, I think going to Joe's talk page will be the first step. I see the logic in their closing but there is also the issue that they identified in the RfC that the "other considerations apply" category isn't always clear in intent. For that matter, green isn't always clear. Does green mean, generally reliable and due or just generally reliable but weight is still a case by case problem? Springee (talk) 03:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Green means generally reliable, but in this case, Jacobin was considered reliable for facts but with the caveat that it is biased and partisan, and should be used attributed for opinions. Similar to a few other biased sources on the board, like Reason, Mother Jones, and New Republic, it's a magazine that publishes a lot of op-eds and thinkpieces. It was not shown to have an issue with reporting of facts. Yellow, or WP:MREL, marginally reliable depending on the context, may be questionable, some considerations apply, or no consensus that it is generally reliable or unreliable. As far as weight, reliable sources matter for weight. Unreliable sources don't count toward weight. In cases where there is a context-dependent decision that must be made, it depends on the situation. But your question "Does green mean, generally reliable and due" appears to be missing the understanding mark by a considerable margin. Andre🚐 03:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

But again we get into the gray areas. For example a generally good news source may have more retractions/corrections etc yet because it has high impact we give it more weight than we might give to a small town paper with zero errors but minimal circulation. This is why we shouldn't confuse the simplistic color scheme with weight, only with how generally reliable we consider the source to be. It is interesting btw, when our ratings differ significantly from other rating sites. Springee (talk) 04:02, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with there being many discretionary gray areas. You're the only one confusing the color scheme with weight. Weight has to do with how much a specific piece of information appears in the source record as a whole for that topic. Articles only reflect the weight of reliable sources. More prominent and distinguished sources, like academic papers, are given more weight. Unreliable sources don't count toward weight. If marginally reliable sources are determined to be reliable in a specific case, they would count toward weight in that case, but maybe not as much if editors have a consensus that it should be given less weight. Some marginally reliable sources in some contexts might be determined to be unreliable in that context, and wouldn't count toward weight. Opinions, even from RS, should be attributed appropriately. And it's been said before that AdFontes Media, MBFC, Newsguard, etc and so on are not considered RS and should not be used to gauge reliability on Wikipedia. Remember, reliability is not a measure of partisan lean or bias or political position. It's a measure of factual accuracy and integrity as a source for information. Andre🚐 04:08, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Andrevan, I think you have decided that if a source isn't green it can't have weight hence why editors my think that some people view color as an indication of weight as well. Also, there is the issue that yellow sources can be RSs and thus can have weight in an article. Also, you are confusing RS for use in articles with sources that can help establish the reliability/weight of a source when having a talk page discussion. AdFontes shouldn't be used as a RS even if their method is sound as they are a primary source. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't consider them in discussions like this. What it means is we should not include their ratings or findings in an article about a source. Thus the NYT article shouldn't say "According to MBFC the NYT is a strong source for news with a rating of X". Nothing says they shouldn't be used to help gauge reliability on Wikipedia. Also, reliability and partisan lean is rarely independent of reliability as our most reliable sources typically only report, not interpret facts. The scores for last weekend's ball games are very factual and also very bias free. A source that has a strong spin on the facts may use "true" facts but the bias may still make them a poor source as they can be "factually true" yet avoid important context. Anyway, I understand your position on the subject. Springee (talk) 04:22, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

As I just said in my previous message, contrary to your mischaracterization of my position, If marginally reliable sources are determined to be reliable in a specific case, they would count toward weight in that case. The AdFontes and MBFC stuff is not usable for determining whether a source is reliable on these discussion pages, by community consensus. Andre🚐 04:25, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Where is this community consensus you claim exists regarding using external rating sites to help establish the reliability of sources for Wikipedia? That may have some impact on the Fox News discussion as Newsguard's rating is mentioned as a reason to downgrade Fox News. Springee (talk) 04:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Newsguard was discussed recently on the board, but not perennially, and it's not a significant argument in the Fox RFC. Both WP:MBFC and WP:ADFONTES have been added to WP:RSP. There's even a warning on Template:Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard "Do not base your RfC solely on Media Bias/Fact Check (RSP entry), as it is not a reliable source." Andre🚐 04:40, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it says don't based a RSN rating solely on MBFC or presumably on any other external rating site. It does not say such information can not be considered. If we take it literally it only says MBFC can't be the only basis for a rating. I saw you just added a WP:ADFONTES link. It is worth noting that that entry says not reliable for article level content, not for talk pages. The discussions basically say because it's a primary source we can't use it's ratings in the article space. Talk pages allow OR and the use of those sources to help editors understand various sources certainly is allowed. Basically you are taking something that is true but applying it in a way that isn't true to the actual consensus. Springee (talk) 04:51, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not an RS, it's a self-published source, and the methodology is opaque or dubious. You're allowed to bring it up, and I'm allowed to say that it doesn't count for much if anything. It's a weak argument for reason editors generally agree on. If you had reliable information in reliable sources like Politifact that would be worth bringing up. Andre🚐 05:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

You are correct, per wp:RS it is not a RS because it is self published. That is what I've already said. Politifact is an interesting source, I recall you were very enthusiastic about it even though it is often flawed. I can think of several cases where they have argued to a conclusion rather than exploring what range of outcomes the facts support. Thus while I would be OK using Politifact as a RS for say a statement by a politician, I would be concerned if we used it to say or even imply the claim was true or false. I have considered opening a RSN discussion about using the "true/false" opinions expressed by sources like PF . Anyway, this back and forth is becoming very repetitive. Springee (talk) 05:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Politifact has a Pulitzer and is backed by the most reliable name in modern journalism, MBFC is an internet blog with no credibility or backing. Those things are not the same. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Mother Jones got a Pulitzer for Pinto Madness yet time has found that the article was mostly crap. PF had to play games when they claimed things like "it was legal for Rittenhouse to have the gun" was false only to have the judge say it was true. A number of articles, including academic ones, have come out criticizing the whole concept of fact checking because so often the fact checkers take a complex issue or set of facts that could support a range of conclusions then state "X is false" as if it were the only possible outcome. But that really is a topic for another thread. Springee (talk) 16:51, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

And this makes a shit tier political blog relevant how? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Jacobin was considered reliable for facts but with the caveat that it is biased and partisan, and should be used attributed for opinions. Except in practice, what happens with all green RSP sources is that their opinions then get latched onto and claimed as fact by some editors because they appeared in a green source. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Re. process: I don't follow RSN so I probably looked at this because someone requested a close/reclose at AN. There is nothing special about archive pages, they're just a technical workaround to stop talk pages getting too long, and there's nothing stopping anyone editing them. Similarly we're not a legal system and there's nothing special about closing a discussion that means it would have to happen at a particular time or place, or be seen by X number of people. If a discussion has reached a consensus, that consensus doesn't change because it's moved to an archive page.

Re. the close: it's been six months so I don't remember the details of this discussion. I can see I left a fairly lengthy summary so please refer to that if anything's unclear. Since it's been so long, I'd recommend starting a new discussion on the reliability of Jacobin if you're not satisfied with the outcome. – Joe (talk) 09:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Don't care as much about the content of the close myself, but closing in an archive seems like a bad idea for the simple reason that closures (especially consequential ones) should be performed where the participants [or anyone, really] will see it. A simple unarchive or even a note saying "I closed it over there" would suffice, I guess. Is this actually common? Yikes. Guess it's a discussion for WP:RFC more than here, though. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 10:50, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I would've thought that the important thing is that people see the result of the discussion, not the particular edit that closed it. In this case I updated WP:RSP, presumably a highly-watched page, with a link to the discussion. I also left a note on the (unarchived) RSP talk page where the original close had been discussed. And of course it was visible on AN, where a new close had been requested. I think Springee is rather overstating how 'hidden' this was. – Joe (talk) 17:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a clear statement on WP:AATP: "Given that talk pages are immutable, archiving a discussion ends that particular discussion." Unfortunately Jay removed it on 6 February 2022, see the thread Editing archives. A suggestion was made that something should be explicit in the guideline, see "Editing talk page guidelines", but that was not successful. Of course the top of WP:RSN archive pages says "Do not edit the contents of this page" due to the talk page navigation template of the automatic archive navigator, but again, alas, it is not a guideline. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Now THAT I don't like... But thats a behavioral not an RS issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:29, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

It is a RS issue if the closing avoids review because it was done out of sight. Note that I do not think this was an intentional action, rather an unfortunate side effect of an expedient edit. Springee (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't actually have an issue with closing discussions post-archive, but thats a separate discussion which doesn't specifically apply to RS but to all pages which are archived. I do have a big issue with someone appearing to tailor our community standards to fit their own editing patterns, now maybe thats not what happened here but if there is problematic behavior thats where I see it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I can see how this can be viewed as separate issues. I think you are saying if the closing were uncontroversial there still is a possible concern related to editing an archive. The other part sounds like something that perhaps should be raised on a user talk page rather than here. Springee (talk) 17:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I can't find any real grounds to take issue with the close itself beyond that it happened in an archive. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Now I've looked back through the archives, I can see that I noted my re-close in the summary of my edit to WP:RSP, at the discussion about the first close at WT:RSP, and at WP:AN (where the first close had just been overturned). So I think "done out of sight" is a bit of an exaggeration. – Joe (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

That is a fair comment about "out of site" though this noticeboard is where the discussion occurred and it wasn't notified. Normally there is no need to notify editors here since the change would occur here. Springee (talk) 18:57, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

@Peter Gulutzan: When you say "unfortunately", does it mean you are in favour of talk page archives being immutable? WP:AATP is a how-to guide. With regards to what can and cannot be done to talk pages, the guideline would be WP:TALK. Establishing at WP:AATP an idea that talk archives are immutable, using the words Given that, when there was no such mention at WP:TALK or anywhere else, was out of place, and there was no basis found for it. Jay 💬 08:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Jay Yes I am in favour of talk pages being immutable, although after re-reading the WP:AN thread Striking comments from banned sockpuppets and modifying archived comments I think there would be proposals about possible exceptions. I agree that the guideline should be WP:TALK, which is why I referred to the earlier thread about changing it, but I see that instead Rhododendrites has started a thread on the WP:RFC talk page RfC closures after archiving. Does anyone else think changing WP:TALK would be more appropriate? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Along with the questions in my subsection below, I think this is an important question. I think it makes more sense to address this at WP:TALK vs RFC because a TALK based solution could apply to RfCs as well as other cases where edits are needed. Springee (talk) 14:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion is appropriate at the RFC talk. RFC is one kind of talk page, and what is applicable to RFC may or may not be applicable to other kinds of talk pages. My opinion is that any discussion that has been closed officially (by an admin or non-admin) and archived, should not be modified. However, changing the outcome of the close using a new thread by providing a reference should be possible. Jay 💬 09:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• The discussion about that also points out that the current (green) listing for Reason does not remotely reflect the most recent discussion. (You yourself opined for option 2 there, which usually corresponds to yellow - as did basically everyone except one person!) We should probably update it to yellow or hold a proper RFC; there's definitely no consensus there to list Reason as green right now. I think the comparison between the two made there is reasonable, beyond that; they're both strident sources for their respective view points, though I would argue that Jacobin clearly has a stronger reputation in the sense of "if you're going to cite someone to represent this perspective, cite them." Certainly I don't think it's credible to argue that we could list Reason as green and Jacobin as yellow given their respective reputations and prominence; either we go by that standard of "if you're going to use a source for this opinion, use them" appropriate to high-quality WP:BIASED publications and list both as green, or we focus on the lack of distinction between reporting and opinion, and list both as yellow. But the arguments made in the two discussions don't seem compatible. (Especially since, at a glance, the one person who argued outright that Reason was reliable in the previous RFC on it was the one who originally tried to close the Jacobin discussion? Someone who is clearly WP:INVOLVED in the reliability of AP2 publications shouldn't be making NACs. --Aquillion (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

  If you wish to argue around Reason then perhaps a separate thread about it makes sense. The question here relates to the closing of the Jacobin RfC. There is some merit to your argument that both are partisan though Adfontes suggests the level of bias is different. Reason is mildly into the Skews Right category while Jacobin is listed as hyper-partisan left. Jacobin is just 12 years old while Reason is over 50. But they are similar in that both use a lot of fact+analysis articles rather than strict fact reporting. Perhaps in both cases we need to clarify what yellow and green really should mean. While Jacobin doesn't have a strong history like Reason has, they both are producing a similar type, if not quality, content. Springee (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

  Perhaps I can turn this question back on you. How do you think we should rate a source has a lot of analysis based on factually correct information? Should we generally call those "reliable" or "considerations apply"? How would we decide when to include or what to include in an article? Even if I don't agree that Reason and Jacobin are left right mirrors of each other, let's assume they are for the moment. How should they be rated in general? Springee (talk) 01:38, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, I think we could do with less reliance on strident opinion-based or overt-ideological-advocacy sources in general, so I would be fine with both being yellow. (Since you !voted for #2 on Reason's last RFC, I suspect you roughly agree, even if we disagree about the relative reputations and partisanship of each; and obviously I wouldn't have raised the question of their similarity if I felt otherwise.) The purpose of such sources is to let us cite relevant opinions within a broad strand of thought via publications that are clearly-established, respected advocates for their respective ideologies. (And I do think that Jacobin is well-established in at least that respect, though that argument should probably wait for / when if we have another RFC.) I don't put much weight in AdFonte's opinion of them because to me that is just AdFonte weighing the positions of socialism vs. right-libertarianism in terms of "radicalness", which isn't meaningful to us and isn't really what we mean by "bias" - if we were to assess them for "biased-ness" both would score 100% bias because they exist entirely to advocate a particular political position. That is to say, Jacobin being further left than Reason is right (already a complicated topic to discuss, but something we could reasonably concede for certain definitions of "left" and "right") doesn't mean that one is more biased than the other. Neither should ever be cited without attribution, ideally with attribution that makes their bias clear (although for Jacobin it's, well, in the name.) --Aquillion (talk) 06:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• I'm sorry Aquillion, but if you're going to cast aspersions with respect to involvement this far after the fact you might as well ping me to let me know this is being discussed. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:24, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

What? You were notified of the discussion at the time; you declined to respond there then, and your closure was overturned without your input - near-unanimously, in part because of your involvement, with the one objection being procedural due to its age. Not a single person who weighed in believed your close was appropriate. This isn't WP:ANI; no one is seeking any sanctions against you here. I considered poking you but decided that constantly bothering someone about their past mistakes every time it comes up is rude. But you can't bow out of a discussion on a closure you made, then take objection after the fact when someone summarizes it in a way you don't like - your closure was a mistake, and I was merely stating the conclusion reached when your closure was overturned - I assumed you accepted and recognized that after it was closed, and wouldn't be closing such RFCs going forwards. If you refuse to accept the near-unanimous ANI conclusion at the time that it was a bad close, or if you somehow still hold to the belief that you could close similar RFCs in a similar fashion in the future, then yes, that's a problem and we ought to take it to ANI to hash it out more thoroughly. Obviously someone knee-deep in controversial disputes in a topic area and a clearly-defined opinion about it should not be closing RFCs related to that topic area, that goes without saying - editors are allowed to hold strong opinions, but the standard for a WP:NAC is higher than this. --Aquillion (talk) 05:52, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Bad close - Option 1 got a minority, and not even a plurality, of votes, all well-reasoned, but it gets listed as green? Really?
  This whole thing is evidence the whole RSN/RSP popularity contest, ahem, system needs massive reform. Is there no left-wing magazine too tendentious to slap a shiny green label on it? Meanwhile, any right-leaning (or perceived right-leaning like Reason) outlets that even allow a tiny bit of opinion to sneak in get slammed for it. Pushing academically marginal views in economics is totally fine for "attributed opinion", but other outlets better not dare say a single word against Covid- or gender-related policy. I wouldn't even care that right-wing opinionated outlets get junked if RSP was fair to all sides about it, but the double-standards are beyond obvious at this point. Sometimes mixing fact and opinion and being out of step with academic consensus is okay and sometimes it isn't I guess. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:37, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• What are you basing "minority" on? By my count there are 14 votes that endorse option 1 as an option, which is a majority of all votes cast. Normally 1/2 style votes mean 'either is acceptable' and are counted towards whichever would get to a majority that way, but either way, unless I drastically miscounted somehow, there's no plausible way to argue that it failed to get a plurality. --Aquillion (talk) 04:02, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  Since several people !voted at 1/2 I double counted those !votes which as a total of 5. I also only counted bold !votes. I got 18, 19 and 5 for options 1, 2 and 3 respectively which includes 5 of the 1/2 votes counted for both option 1 and 2 tallies. Even if you counted all the 1/2 !votes as 1 the "not 1" combination of 2/3 has a slight majority. However, I think it would be better to ask how we should generally handle questions like this where we feel a source providing commentary with a bias but no evidence that the facts that support that analysis are wrong. Do we say "reliable" but be careful to separate reported facts from the "analysis/commentary"? If yes then call it green and the closing is OK. Springee (talk) 04:24, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• Bad close. The fact of the matter is that there was no consensus in that discussion, and there was certainly not consensus that the source was WP:GREL. That being said, the proper place to appeal a bad close is WP:AN, not WP:RSN, so it may be best for an admin to move this conversation there. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:29, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Alright, I do apologize for bugging you about this when we just hashed it out above, but feel that it needs to be said: Unless I am completely mixing up the timeline of events, you previously closed this precise RFC with a strong consensus that it was marginally reliable, which is the opposite of there being no consensus. Has your opinion changed? Do you feel your previous close was in error? Were you simply misinterpreted? --Aquillion (talk) 06:12, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The rationale for the previous close (i.e. "strong consensus") was in error and was not an accurate description of that discussion, and it is a close I regret making for that reason. That is quite different than your comment in that close challenge accusing me of being some sort of ideological agent hell-bent on deprecating sources only with a particular political lean, which is something I take umbrage with, as well as the characterization that my editing about Uyghur genocide is somehow right-wing. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:10, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Endorse close, FWIW. The numerical tilt of !votes comes into play when arguments are of similar strength; in this case they were not. When a source meets our basic guidelines for reliability (independence, editorial oversight, reputation for fact-checking) then those calling for an "unreliable" classification need to provide empirical evidence for unreliability, and lacking this a lot of such !votes can and should be set aside. The close was quite correct. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:14, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Bad close it did not get enough support to consider this controversial source as reliable. They are beyond simply "opinionated" in terms of their socialist leanings, and there was not consensus to overcome that and consider them "generally reliable". Bill Williams 23:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Bad Close. Based on the close, both the numerical majority of participants and the balance of arguments agreed that it is generally trustworthy and factually accurate, despite option 1 got a minority, and numerically a generally reliable close isn't the best. The option 1 side IMHO seems to be slightly stronger than the option 2 or option 3 votes, the latter are also perfectly reasonable, pointing out that Jacobin frequently cite refs we designate generally unreliable, are mostly ignored. IMHO, the close, while decently nuanced overall, ignores the Option 3 votes. This should be overturned as no consensus, IMHO. I also feel the RSP entry's wording is also more inaccurate, stating that there's consensus that Jacobin is reliable with bias as just a caveat (not an additional consideraiton) that will turn the entry into marginally reliable: Jacobin is a U.S.-based magazine that describes itself as a leading voice of the American left, offering socialist perspectives on politics, economics, and culture. There is a consensus that Jacobin is a generally reliable but biased source. Editors should take care to adhere to the neutral point of view policy when using Jacobin as a source in articles, for example by quoting and attributing statements that present its authors' opinions, and ensuring that due weight is given to their perspective amongst others' in the close. VickKiang (talk) 03:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse close without prejudice against another RFC (which is probably the correct way to handle this.) By my reading, option 1 was supported by a majority of the people there. Furthermore, most of the arguments for options 2 or 3 are weak - people argued that it should be downgraded because it is WP:BIASED or because it expresses views they consider fringe. But (at least currently) bias alone is not a reason to downgrade a source; you have to demonstrate that that bias actually impacts their reliability. That's the whole reason why eg. when discussing Fox News above I went to such great lengths to detail the fact that their bias has actually led to them regularly publishing misinformation. Similarly, while some editors may personally consider Jacobin to be on the fringes of political discourse, the extensive WP:USEBYOTHERS demonstrated in that discussion shows that it is not as fringe as they believe. Regional bias also plays a role; socialism might not be a mainstream political force in America (although its influence in recent Democratic politics makes it hard to call it fully WP:FRINGE even in that context), but it is treated as a fully-respectable viewpoint worldwide and in much of academia. It is often a minority opinion, which has to be considered when evaluating WP:DUE weight, but there is a huge gap between an opinion being minority and it being so clearly rejected by mainstream sources that it can be considered WP:FRINGE and any source that advocates for it summarily dismissed. The arguments against it were both weak and in the numerical minority, while the arguments for it were strong. As I implied in that discussion and stated more unambiguously here, I would be willing to agree that sufficiently WP:BIASED sources should be downgraded to yellow, but this would have to be applied evenhandedly; currently it is clearly-established that a source that is broadly accurate but clearly WP:BIASED gets a green rating. --Aquillion (talk) 04:02, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
• Please stop the bolded !votes, because this is not the venue for a close challenge. It's not too late to take this to WP:AN, per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. This isn't useless bureaucracy either: putting it in the right place means uninvolved editors/admin with experience in evaluating closure and close reviews can participate. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:08, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

"Government patent authorities, however, do not fact-check, edit or endorse any material in the patent application. "

The priority (at least in the country of patent office) was fact checked, and after that the patent was granted. Sometimes a patent was granted by US. patent office only after long-long years passed. MAybe it changed in recent years, but many decades ago, itself the fact-checking caused many, many years of delay between submission and patent granting. Old patents were fact-checked and priority checked at least in the country of the patent office. It is especially important info regarding older inventions--Peddigsten (talk) 15:37, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I think what that means is that (say) the patent office does not check that a patent will actually work, or be founded upon sound principles. Or (now I know what this is about) for statements not actually in the patent (such as claims of what it shows). Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

You are correct. Here’s one of many patents for a perpetual motion machine, which has been published (the fancy term for "if you infringe after that date I can sue you"). Apparently things got so out of hand that the UK patent office specifically added a clause stating that perpetual motion machines would not be patented without a working prototype. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 13:55, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Note as well wp:v, a source has to actually say it, with words. How you interpret it is not wp:rs. Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, interpreting patents should be left to experts. They are complex legal documents written in a specific form of technical language, for a specific purpose, and easily misunderstood. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:39, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Solar panel

Leftover PV panels can contaminate soil, as it happened in 2013 when US-based Solyndra solar farm bankrupted leaving broken panels on site.

https://www.cfact.org/2019/09/15/the-solar-panel-toxic-waste-problem/

I suggest Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow is listed as perennially unreliable as our article says "The organization rejects the scientific consensus on climate change." Chidgk1 (talk) 16:45, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

It sounds like this is a lobbying group. I think the general concern related to panels causing ground level pollution had been reported by a number of sources such as Discover, Wired and IEEE Spectrum. Springee (talk) 19:01, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

If the claim about the use of solar panels causing toxic waste is valid, it should be possible to find a better source. We don't need to cite partisan sources for things these sources themselves suggest has already been reported elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

At Talk:The Gods from Outer Space/GA1 we need a 3O on whether this minor webpage is reliable. I argue that it meets WP:SPS ("Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications"). The source is used to reference a minor and uncontroversial claim about the comic book having been translated to several languages. The page author is one Leszek Kaczanowski, who has published a book on Polish comics, owns a comic book publishing company (so is an "industry insider"), and according to his own webpage, was a founder of a classic Polish comic book magazine pl:Relax (magazyn komiksowy) (I couldn't independenty verify this last claim yet). This (reliable - pl:Money.pl) newspaper article in Polish describes him as a "comic book researcher" . His webpage (which may contain reprints of articles he published in some non-digitized Polish magazines about comics, but doesn't do a good job attributing original source if this is the case) has been cited by reliable sources a few times (ex. here, academic paper on Polish comics, or here, a Polish portal about comics). Note that the page is now dead (last archived version at IA is from early 2018).

Ping User:Mike Christie, the GA reviewer who may offer his counterpoint on why they don't think this source is reliable. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. My concern with the evidence Piotrus has provided is that the academic paper is not citing relax.nast.pl for the sort of information that would imply it's treated as reliable, it's only indicating that it contains material from the comic in question that the reader can look at -- in other words it is not Kaczanowski's writing that is being cited. I think there is not enough information to distinguish the site from that of any other fan who might post unreliable information. The book he has published is helpful but doesn't automatically establish his website as reliable. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:22, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie The point is, that by the virtue of publishing a book and being involved with the indistry as a professional, he meets the definition of "an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications". _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:55, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

OK -- after thinking about it, for the non-controversial information being cited here I am willing to go along with that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Is Coinmarketcap a reliable source for this ? I couldn't find any previous discussions of its reliability. Wikipedia:Notability (cryptocurrencies) says "More broadly, there is strong consensus that cryptocurrency-focused sources (such as CoinDesk or Bitcoin Magazine) should generally not be used on Wikipedia articles." so I'm inclined to remove it. JaggedHamster (talk) 12:41, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Completely unreliable, particularly for such a WP:BLP use. I reverted immediately for the BLP concern. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment: Not reliable for a BLP --Molochmeditates (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Apart from being a cryptocurrency source, even people in the crypto industry have noted how (a) CMC's data was bad when it was a standalone site (b) CMC's coverage suddenly got worse when Binance bought them. (I'd link, but the example I had is on the spam blacklist! "Has The Binance Effect Been Good or Bad For CoinMarketCap?" in CryptoPotato.) So I would strongly suggest it never be used for anything - David Gerard (talk) 16:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Building on the above efforts in the military history space this is a collection of problematic fansites in the religion space

• Catholic.org (generally mistaken as being the Church itself, it is not ) with 500+ uses
• Newadvent.org with 500+ uses
• Catholic-Hierarchy.org with 500+ uses
• OrthodoxWiki.org with 500+ uses
• catholicsaints.info with 500+ uses
• sacred-texts.com with 500+ uses

Certainly more but no reason we can't batch it out. All of these are clear and unambiguous fansites with a single person behind them except for OrthodoxWiki which is an open wiki although also a bit of a fansite. Horse Eye's Back (talk)

• Potter, Jeremy (1983). Good King Richard? An Account of Richard III and his Reputation. London: Constable.

According to Prabook.com, Jeremy Potter became director of Constable and Co., the publishing company of his book listed above. Does this fall under WP:SPS, since Jeremy Potter was not an historian? --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I want to use my observations from my work within this field as a reliable source. For some reason, Wikipedia will accept my photos from my work of various species as reliable, but won't let the article be linked as a source. It doesn't make any sense.

My educational background in Natural Resources and Environmental Management should be noted along with further studying underway for extremely rare and endangered Hawaiian plants. Most of these observations are from out within the field in natural landscapes, which is where I have gained much of my experience beyond education.

I personally can't see any reason why this information isn't reliable, and everything can be verified through alternative sources, even Wikipedia searches much of the time. If there's any other information that I need to add please let me know! Noahawaii (talk) 19:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

All editors on Wikipedia are nominally anonymous. We do not recognize any editor as an expert on content. The project was publically burned many years ago by an editor who convinced a lot of other editors that he was an expert in a particular subject area, until his story fell apart under a spotlight in the national news. Your knowledge of a subject area should make it easier for you to find reliable published sources that can be used for citations. However, it you want to cite sources you have written, or have a significant connection to, please be aware of and follow the the guideline at Wikipedia:Conflict of Interest, including the section at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest#External roles and relationships. Donald Albury 20:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Well I don't see how an area of native Hawaiian plants would attract the same kind of story, but I know what you're saying. To your suggestions, I've already tried using my work as a source and it has been removed multiple times with the answer that exceptions can be made, which is why I was referred to here. I need to know how these exceptions can be made.

As for the most recent reply, every source that I used beyond my own were readily accepted. I hope that would help my case. On top of that for the verifiability in the link below, my source falls under none of what described on that page that I think would deny other unreliable sources, like the Questionable sources section or Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves. My source is not for self-gain or gossip, etc. that was talked about on that page. I invite you to click on the source and scroll half way down and read about one of the species observations. Read about ʻakolea on that page, which is the article I wrote. You'll see what I mean. Noahawaii (talk) 21:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Per the WP:SPS policy, are you an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications? That's more or less the exceptional circumstances for considering a self-published blog to be potentially reliable, and there's no guarantee there. I'll note that the relevant field would be botany, not photography. And that even if not for your own personal gain, it still gives the appearance of a conflict of interest for the author of a source to add it to articles. This applies even to PhD scientists citing otherwise reliable peer-reviewed research, and with few exceptions the procedure is typically to make a request on the Talk page and allow an independent editor to make the determination. Bakkster Man (talk) 21:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

My relevant field was stated earlier in my initial post. I was never trying to justify photography. That's just the only website/blog that I have, so I still believe I am meeting the criteria. Noahawaii (talk) 01:44, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

The above response covers most of it (and I think the COI disclosure and note that you're likely an excellent source for identifying reliable sources on the topic are important). I'll just add to check the WP:SPS policy section that this page would fall under for further expansion on why. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:58, 16 September 2022 (UTC)