Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 410

I would like to start a discussion on the reliability of the book "L'énigme Valtorta : Une vie de Jésus romancée?" by J. F. Lavere, published in 2012 . This is due to the use of several quotes from this book on Poem of the Man God article. I have tagged these quotes as "unreliable". The book'a level of support for the extraordinary features of Valtorta's writings is extreme and exaggerated.

Here, I would like to state that this book is not WP:RS on scientific or theological matters, given the author's lack of track record on the subject.

There are a few issues:

1. The back cover of the book states that J. F. Lavere is a retired engineer in France. I have read elsewhere that he was a chemical engineer, but let us just assume that he was just some type of engineer. Did he publish any books on engineering? Not that Amazon knows about. In fact this was his frst book ever for all we know. He wrote other things later, but here he was fresh from the engineering field and his lack of experience is obvious.

2. Would J. F. Lavere be even a WP:RS source on some type of engineering? Obviously not, gven that he has no track record we know of. So he is certainly not an authority on theology. But he is being used as such. That must stop.

3. His book is quite open about the fact that many items he quotes come from web sites and blogs. For instance, he mentions quotes from Roman Danylak and bases them directly on Danylak's personal website. That issue is currently being debated on this noticeboard. And there seems to be no support for the reliability of that.

4. The book includes unsourced and clearly contradictory statements are being quoted in Wikipedia, e.g.

"In January 1962, Fr. Berti was given an authorization to publish by the Vice Commissioner of the Holy See, Father Marco Giraudo: “You have our[who?] total approbation to continue the publication of this second edition of The Gospel as revealed to me by Maria Valtorta," concluding with, "We shall see how it is received."

It is absolutely impossible for Giraudo to have written that, given that in the book Lettera a Claudia, the publisher Emilio Pisani states that the title "The Gospel as revealed to me" was invented in the 1970's with the publication of the French translation. TThe title did not exist in 1962, and Lavere gives no indication of where ho obtained that quote. But the quote is floating on all kinds of blogs. There are other obvious errors exaggerations in that book, too many to discuss, but it is largely a claim of exceptional origin for the writings of Valtorta, sprinkled with exaggerated theological claims.

5. In that book Lavere has walked out of the enginerring world and has commented on topics such as botany where he has no expertise. The book can not be considered reliable, unless it includes the chemical formula for a new shampoo. Lavere would probably know about that, but not the topics in this book.

The real problem is that unless this book is declared as unreliable, 30 more incorrect and exaggerated claims from it may be added to Wikipedia. This must stop. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 19:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Some information to provide additional context that has been missing thus far. From the book by Laurentin and Debroise, "Insagine su Maria" which is RS (reliable authors and publisher), we have the following excerpts:

pp. 66-67:

"If a good part of the seven hundred and fifty characters (for the great majority are unknown from history) is perplexing, two hundred and fifty have been identified historically, thanks to some unpublished works by Jean-François Lavère."(24)

Footnote 24: Cfr. François-Michel Debroise and Jean-Francois Lavere, Les Protagonistes de l'Évangile d'après l'æuvre de Maria Valtorta, in corse di pubblicazione

—

p. 67:

"For years, Jean-François Lavère has been dedicating the free time he has thanks to his retirement to recording and evaluating the set of material data contained in Maria Valtorta's story (places, historicity of the characters, archeology, arts and techniques, uses and customs, flora and fauna, and of course, chronological coherence). After verifying more than eight thousand data on the approximately ten thousand registered, it obtained a credibility rate of 99.6 percent."(25)

Footnote 25: Jean-François Lavere, L'enigma Maria Valtorta, "Bollettino Valtortiano", I semestre 2009.

—

The book also references this list of experts (p. 71) regarding the works of Maria Valtorta (last updated 2019), on the website www.maria-valtorta.org which was created and maintained by François-Michel Debroise, author of multiple books co-authored with Laurentin:

Footnote 29: www.maria-valtorta.org/Travaux/Experts.htm

One of those living experts is Jean-François Lavère.

—

Now, I'm not suggesting this automatically makes the book by Lavére, L'Enigma Valtorta RS given the issues with the publisher already mentioned (lack of editorial oversight), but it does show that Lavère is considerably more credible than some would have us believe, and quite respected in the community of experts, especially considering he has co-authored with heavyweight Laurentin and Debroise on similar material. In short, his research and opinions matter. To call him or his work "fanatical" or "fantastical", is patently absurd.

Regarding the concern that we must disallow the book entirely, because 30 or more opinions may be pulled out of that book, is not a valid argument. As always, there is WP:DUE, and it would make no sense to have an article with a total of about 50-60 citations, having 30 or more come from one book, RS or not. But a few selected references presenting an expert author's opinions should be acceptable. Arkenstrone (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Right, shall we try with the basics on this, we can look at the publisher and the type of stuff they normally publish, as well as the other published work of Levere. Do you know of any other publications by Levere? What is the publisher of this book? Boynamedsue (talk) 20:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Boynamedsue, the publisher is a French publisher Rassemblement À Son Image mostly a religious publisher. But 90% of my argument was based on the "author's lack of track record". This was his first book as seen here . He may have learned a few things 5-7 years later, but in 2012 he was fresh from the engineering workshop. He has only ever published on one topic: Maria Valtorta. He wrote a few things later as shown in the link, but he had published nothing before this book. And no PhD, no professor, etc. And wondering off to discuss topics from botany to theology does not make that reliable. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 21:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok, this is a lot easier than I thought. The publishing house generally publishes books on Catholic spirituality which reflect the opinions of the authors. It also publishes a lot of reprints of out of copyright religious books. I see no evidence of editorial oversight at a sufficient level that controversial facts can be supported, although it is obviously good for the author's opinion. Boynamedsue (talk) 22:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, not an acceptable source for statements of fact but could be used for the author's opinion if due. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

So sourcing material from books of this kind is acceptable provided it is presented not as fact, but as the authors opinion. Understood.

For greater clarity, this particular author, Lavere, has published with other authors, including Laurentin, and Debrois, in the same year (2012) which are also considered reliable sources. For example: Dictionnaire des personnages de l'évangile selon Maria Valtorta.

It would seem somewhat strange to say that the author Lavere, is unreliable in once instance and reliable in another, especially when dealing with material that is closely related (generally to do with Valtorta's work) and published in the same year.

Further, the book in question includes a preface by the Bishop Johanan-Mariam Cazenave’s, the Secretary of the Syrian-French Synod, so it's not without some level of high-ranking ecclesiastical support. Arkenstrone (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

What does ecclesiastical support have to do with reliability? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Peer review as in WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Since we're not dealing with a work of physics here, but rather a work concerning religious matters, and specifically, religious matters pertaining to the Catholic Church, experts constitute high-ranking or respected members of the Catholic Church. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

No, experts constitute those with relevant academic expertise and publishing histories, many of whom are high-ranking or respected members of the Catholic Church. I'd also note that we're dealing with a matter of *history* here first and foremost. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:58, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Experts are domain-specific. Academics in physics, chemistry, or biology are concerned with empirical data, and while they are highly relevant in their specific fields of inquiry, they are generally irrelevant in matters of religious doctrine and faith (unless, for example, they are doing a carbon dating of a religious artifact, or doing mathematical or statistical analyses of some kind).

Church history is part of it, but not exclusively. It is also a matter of Church doctrine, and what is and is not contrary to Church doctrine, faith and morals, which requires experts in that domain, i.e., high-ranking or respected members of the Church who can weigh in on such matters. Arkenstrone (talk) 22:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Think of it this way: what would it do to a published work in physics, if the preface to that work was written by Richard Feynman, Neils Bohr, or even Einstein, praising the work? Same principle. Arkenstrone (talk) 22:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Is Johanan-Mariam Cazenave a renowned figure on the level of Feynman, Bohr, Einstein, etc? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

The fact he's a Bishop means he's sufficiently high-ranking and knowledgeable to be able to weigh in on such matters. In any case, I said "same principle." I wasn't making an equivalence. Arkenstrone (talk) 23:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Lets start here... Who is Bishop Johanan-Mariam Cazenave? What is the Syrian-French Synod? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Arkenstone, I did have a good laugh at your reference to Richard Feynman, Neils Bohr and Einstein. But Johanan-Mariam Cazenave is no Einstein. And given that Lavere makes a large number of fantastic scientific claims across multiple fields in his book, Cazenave (as a theolog) was in no pisition to evaluate them. It woud be like a physicist trying to evaluate a book on dentistry - he would not even know what types of drills the dentists use. So the argument about Cazenave is vacuous. And recall that the fact that the publisher has no serious editorial oversight on these issues, renders the whole argument pointless. Please accept that this is a book by a publisher with no serious oversight on scientific or historical issues, and an author (Lavere) who directly references blogs and personal websites as his sources. This is not a WP:RS item. And recall the inherent asymetry in WP:BURDEN. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 23:42, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Is Cazenave a theologian? I'm having a hard time tracking down a Catholic Bishop of that name. Perhaps its a pseudonym or pen name? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

<Sigh> I said, "same principle." And I repeat, it wasn't an equivalence.

Care to elaborate on "fantastic scientific claims" since you brought it up (on the Poem talk page please, not here)? This work isn't being used in the article to support scientific claims, so why are you focusing attention on that?

You are far too harsh on Lavere, especially considering the fact that he co-authored other works with Laurentin and Debroise, whom you seem to hold in high-regard. Though not relevant to this discussion, many of the scientific claims that are made in Lavere's book, are made elsewhere in other books or publications, by experts in those fields, which we will get to in due course (and you know it). So, "fantastic" would seem quite the exaggeration.

Perhaps Bishop Cazenave's praise and commendation is "vacuous" as it relates to scientific claims, but that's not what we're concerned with here. So please, let's stop conflating things.

Bishop Cazenave can weigh in on issues concerned with Church doctrine, and what is and is not contrary to Church doctrine, faith and morals. For those issues, his praise and commendation is pertinent and certainly not vacuous.

In any case, this discussion is getting longer than need be, drifting into tangential issues. Lavere's book can be used for his statements and opinions, but not for controversial facts. So long as statements and opinions are not presented as facts, we should be alright. Arkenstrone (talk) 06:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Arkenstone, a few points:

1. Regarding Einstein, you do have a technical way out, because you did not say "Albert Einstein" so can suggest that it was Eduard Einstein... smiile.

2. This discussion started for only one reason: because you kept adding this book to Wikipedia, although I told you that it is not reliable. You did do despite the asymetry of WP:BURDEN. And this discussion was dormant for several days and would have quietly ended with the final comment by Horse Eye on June 25th. But it restarted when you began huffing and puffing about the importance of Cazenave and how his statement contributed to the reliability of the book. I think the opposite is true, but I will let you explain yourself first. But we must clarify that this book is not reliable for facts and all statements you have added from it so far need to be deleted.

3. Given that you brought up Cazenave, in all fairness you must answer the question you were asked about him, namely Who on earth is Cazenave? Do you have any idea who he is? Why is there no trace of him on the internet? Does he even exist? How do you know? How do we know they have not tried to pull a Follieri here? As you may recall Follieri was Anne Hathaway's boyfriend and would get actors to "wear bishop outfits" and negotiate to sell chuch property that was not for sale. Do a Google on "Raffaello Follieri" to refresh your memory if necessary. So how do you know who he is? Perhaps you could call Hathaway and ask her if she remembers Cazenave as part of Follieri's old gang. Who knows, you may even get a date with Hatahaway...

This whole thing has turned into a joke because the book in question is a joke, and the recent attemptat defending it based on Cazenave is a joke. Let us accept that the book is unreliable, deleted the references to it, and then I will tell you about Cazenave. We may still have a laugh after that. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 14:34, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• @Arkenstone: you keep ignoring the point so I want to make something clear: if Cazenave turns out not to exist I will be taking you to ANI and asking for an indeff/cban on competence grounds. Now perhaps you will take this seriously. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we have any reason to think Cazenave doesn't exist. However, we have no reason to think he is an expert on what long-dead popes might or might not have said. A figure who claims to be a bishop in an extremely obscure Indian church (well, actually, a third party claims that online, but he certainly claims to be some sort of bishop) is not a reliable source just by virtue of making such a claim. A bishop might be a useful primary or even secondary source on the doctrines of their own denomination, but beyond that they are governed by the same rules of establishing reliability as everyone else. Boynamedsue (talk) 20:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Boynamedsue: we actually do, Roman Catholic Bishops are important figures and always have significant coverage (at least from Catholic sources). They almost always have their own Vatican hosted web profile. I can't find a single mention of this Cazenave outside of the context of this book. Arkenstrone isn't claiming he's a member of an extremely obscure Indian church, he's claiming that he is a Bishop in the Roman Catholic Church. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:25, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Even the supposed "Syrian-French Synod" is only mentioned in the book and conversations about the book (reader's groups and so on). That such a synod exists without a mention anywhere else is simply unbelievable. Woodroar (talk) 20:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: "Very Rev. Jean Bernard de Cazenave" is Vicar General for France of the "Nordic Catholic Church". Apparently, he was at some point an archimandrite in a French Syriac Orthodox group, whether canonical or vagante, I don't know. This source seems to be entirely dubious. Jahaza (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Right last name, wrong first name and rank. We need a Bishop with the first name of Johanan-Mariam. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't take any form of threat seriously. If you wish people to respond to you, then try some civility WP:CIVIL. I see you have been warned regarding personal attacks previously. Your statement is hostile, and an accusation of malicious conduct and/or competency as per WP:NPA. I would remind you what @Boynamedsue recently said to an IP user above engaging in similar behaviour: "What I do know is that suggesting a user lacks competence to edit is not just an insane escalation at this point, but it [is] a violation WP:NPA. I will take this to WP:ANI if I see you do it again." You have been warned. Arkenstrone (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

This is the part where you present reliable sources which indicate that Bishop Cazenave exists. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Arkenstrone: have you uncovered any evidence that Bishop Cazenave exists and if not are you still assessing that they exist? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

This discussion started for only one reason: because you kept adding this book to Wikipedia, although I told you that it is not reliable.

No, that's not what you said. Your statements were filled with false assumptions and accusations, and extremely disparaging attacks rooted in some incorrect perception of what you thought was taking place (something about an Australian website?), a clear violation of WP:NPA, which I brushed off, asking you to focus on the content instead of the editor. You can review that part of the talk page if you wish.

"Huffing and puffing." Really?

The final sentence I added about Bishop Cazenave, wasn't the thrust of my argument. That was a statement to indicate that Lavere's work is not without some level of ecclesiastical support. So to call his work "a joke" is quite a stretch and not rooted in reality. It's also interesting that you ignored the main part of the argument about Lavere co-authoring other works with Laurentin and Debroise, in the same year (2012), having to do with similar material (Valtorta), whom you do consider RS.

Regarding Bishop Cazenave, digging a little deeper, he is a Bishop of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch, the sister Church of Rome, and under the authority of the Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, the Supreme head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church. You can read the details of the common declaration of Pope John Paul II and the Patriarch of Antioch of 1984, which should help clear things up.

(Regarding your attempts at dry humour, you lost me. Suffice it to say, don't give up your day job.) Arkenstrone (talk) 00:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Some additional information on the Syriac Orthodox Church and its history here: Arkenstrone (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Arkenstone, Yada, yada, yada. I think all keyboards here are getting worn out and none of this will change the outcome of this discussion. Jahaza's additional coment that the book is entirely dubious seals the fate of this discussion. This discussion should end by declaring the book as not reliable for any factual information, and references to it should be deleted. That will happen, regardless of additional pages of discussion. I will suggest that below. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 00:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

You are ignoring my response and instead deflecting. And for the record, as per Wiki policy and the discussion resolved in the very first remarks, the book can be used for Lavere's statements and opinions, but not for controversial facts. Arkenstrone (talk) 07:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Arkenstrone: it can be used for that, but on Lavere's page not The Poem of the Man God. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Cazenave isn't mentioned in the linked source, I can't find a Syriac Orthodox Bishop by the name of Cazenave either. Where did you find this information when you dug a little deeper? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Arkenstone did kind of make the claim Cazenave was a Catholic bishop, but I think he was more guilty of imprecision than anything else. Based on an unreliable website, I think some people definitely believe him to be a bishop of the Syrian-Orthodox church of the Indies of Malabar. As it goes, though coauthoring with people who have published reliable works does increase an author's credibility, it does not, in this case, mitigate for the problems with the publisher. There are many writers who have some reliable works and some which are valid for only their opinion. Boynamedsue (talk) 06:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I did presume him to be a Bishop of the Roman Curia, instead of the Syrian-Orthodox Church. I had no compelling reason to doubt he was a Bishop, however. It seems absurd to me that an author would resort to such a ruse, risking their reputation and career on a preface commendation of a non-existant Bishop.

As it goes, though coauthoring with people who have published reliable works does increase an author's credibility, it does not, in this case, mitigate for the problems with the publisher

Fair enough. And for that reason, I understand that the book cannot be used to support controversial statements as facts, but only as the author's opinion. Arkenstrone (talk) 07:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a single reliable source which says he's a Bishop in the Syrian-Orthodox Church? Note that it can only be used to support the author's opinion on the author's page, there is no way to use it at The Poem of the Man God because the author's opinion is not due for inclusion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

What "reputation and career" was he risking? Haven't we established that this was his first book, and it was outside the realm of any existing career we've found sign of? (And if you think that aspiring authors would never think of pulling shenanigans, sit down with me and some fellow publishers at a bar at a convention sometime, and we'll have some stories to tell you.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

NatGertler, I assume those stories would include Nicolas Bourbaki and some of their pranks. At some point Andre Weil carried business cards with the name Bourbaki and was accused of being a spy when they found them along with his own cards in his wallet at a border crossing. Cartan and Weil had that game going for quite a while. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to close this discussion: This discussion seems destined to end in the book in question being declared not reliable for factual information, because there is only one user arguing for reliability and a few others supporting unreliability. In the sense of WP:SNOW this discussion has no chance of proving the book to be reliable in the context of WP:BURDEN regardless of any additional drama on this page. I therefore propose that this discussion should close with the conclusion that the book was found not to be reliable for factual information, so we can move on. Thanks. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 00:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Read above. Lavere is credible given he has coauthored with others who have published reliable works. However, due to lack of editorial oversight of the publisher, the book cannot be used to support controversial statements as facts, but only as the author's opinion. Arkenstrone (talk) 08:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't go so far as to say he is "credible", I think the coauthoring lowers the odds against him, but on its own is not enough. The inclusion of its claims would be governed by WP:DUE and, to an extent, WP:FRINGE. I think the problem here is, at its root, the inclusion of claims of Valtorta's orthodoxy due to second-hand accounts of approval by senior church figures, and whether it's possible to include apologia from Lavere. That is a massive can of worms. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that all these "fanatical" statements from this Enigma book seem to suggest that the majority of the Catholic Church (if not the entire planet) support Valtorta. That is far, far from reality. This is a controversial topic. Only totally drunk people would suggest that the book is not controversial. I have not had any drinks today, so I would not suggest that. So a can of woems would be an understatement. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 09:56, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Which "fanatical" statements? Some of the things Lavere is stating is also stated by co-authors Laurentin, and Debroise, AND Lavere in another book of the same year, regarding similar material, and probably others. So that's hardly "fanatical". While many controversial statements may not be used due to the issue with the publisher's lack of editorial oversight, that doesn't make them "fanatical". Controversial does not equal fanatical. Your penchant for hyperbole and exaggeration is not helpful. Arkenstrone (talk) 18:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

René Laurentin and François-Michel Debroise would appear to be controversial figures in their own right due to their promotion of fringy Marian concepts like apparitions (ghosts to the layman). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Boynamedsue, The problem with saying only "controversial" statements from the book should be excluded is that it makes the can of worms exponentially larger over time. Consider the statement that is already in the article:

"According to Lavère, in January 1962, Fr. Berti was given an authorization to publish by the Vice Commissioner of the Holy See, Father Marco Giraudo, and this statement attributed to Fr. Giraudo was added by Emilio Pisani, Valtorta's publisher, to volume 10 of the 1985 French edition: “You have our total approbation to continue the publication of this second edition of The Gospel as revealed to me [the Poem] by Maria Valtorta," concluding with, "We shall see how it is received.”"

Is this controversial? I think it is not only controversial, but clearly absurd, given that the Index was still active in 1962. And in the book Lavere gives no indication of the statement came about. This statement is tantamount to the Vice President of some country giving permission to ignore some of the laws in that country that are already on the books. These debates about what is controversial will turn that page into an utter mess. I agree with the position taken by Jahaza that the book is "entirely dubious" as a source. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 10:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if we need a formal close, but I agree that we have to consider the source unreliable or objectionable for any number of reasons. Whether it's dubious or a hoax or the author is careless about names and facts or it's factual but niche enough to be overlooked by every other reliable source, it really doesn't matter. The source lacks the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that we require. Woodroar (talk) 12:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Woodroar, Thank you. It was about time someone said that loud and clear as you did. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 16:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Yesterday, all my dreams..., yes absolutely, that is a highly controversial statement. Anything that can only be sourced to a book without sufficient editorial oversight could be challenged on that basis. Boynamedsue (talk) 13:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Boynamedsue, So your definition of "controversial" is any statement that can only be sourced to that book and no other? If so, almost every statement from that book used in the article is controversial, because it has a single source, namely the book. And they are often sourced in the book itself to blogs and personal websites that would not be considered WP reliable. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 16:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Right, and this is one of the problems at present. That statement was made by Fr. Berti, who was present at the meeting with Fr. Giraudo. He produced a signed letter and testimony attesting to that event. The problem is that while this signed letter and testimony exists on websites that host information and historical documents concerning these events, they haven't been formally published, and so there is some difficulty using them as reliable primary sources. There is plenty of evidence to indicate these events did happen, it's just that we are unable to cite reliable sources confirming this at present. In due course, this may change, but until then, we are forced to treat them as "controversial" statements whose primary source evidence can't be cited directly. But certainly not "fanatical".

So the question is, is it possible to reference such controversial statements, reworked or reworded, not as fact, but as something controversial, and as the authors opinion or view? For example, there is a line of text in the sister article Maria Valtorta that sites Bouflet's statement (a critic of Valtorta) that all we know about Valtorta is from her autobiography. But this is incorrect. At least 2 biographies have been written about her. However, the statement remains, not because it's factual, but because he's generally considered a reliable source, with reliable publisher, etc. even though the statement itself is clearly incorrect. So we say that "According to Bouflet…" or "Bouflet states that…" in order not mislead readers into thinking that his statement is incontrovertible fact.

Also, @Yesterday is misleading you. As I mentioned before, some of the statements made by Lavere are also made by others, including Laurentin and Debroise and Lavere himself as co-author with other RS authors in other books. For example some of the statements concerning Msgr. Tettamanzi, Fr. Allegra, and Cardinal Gagnon, appear in both books. I will acquire copies of the other books to see which other statements also appear in these books so we can stop attributing to "fanaticism" that which is simply controversial or even reliably sourced fact. Arkenstrone (talk) 19:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Source: Credit Unions & Community Banking by Amy Roberts, Edited by Hannah McEwen

Article: Credit unions in the United Kingdom

Content: various statements on the nature of credit unions.

Hi, MoneySavingExpert is a consumer website (similar to Which?) with an edited and very high quality descriptions of various financial products, government schemes, etc. It is used as a source by The Guardian , and The Telegraph , and its comparison tools are recommended by The Guardian, and the BBC. Martin Lewis, the site's chairman, runs a weekly podcast for the BBC.

For some reason it has been spam blacklisted without a discussion here, and discussions on the spam blacklist forum indicate users seem to think that it is entirely forums (which it isn't) or a personal blog (which it has not been for a long time, it has an editorial team (indeed the piece I want to cite was edited by Hannah McEwen who previously spent a decade at Which?), a editorial code) or somehow run exclusively as advertorial (which it isn't, it just has some affiliate links, which plenty of news sources listed as reliable on WP:RSP do, and this particular article doesn't have any, anyway).

Unless there is a blanket ban on consumer media that has somehow escaped my notice, this seems to have been designated generally unreliable by proxy and without those doing so having a proper knowledge of the facts.

Best wishes, ~ El D. (talk to me) 14:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, obviously the forum section is not an RS (as it wouldn't be for any other website), but the main website itself should not be blacklisted. MSE is probably at least as influential as Which?, and Lewis is the "go to" expert for the BBC and other media when they need someone to explain financial issues. Black Kite (talk) 12:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• I guess you're referring to the spam-blacklist threads in December 2018, March 2019, April 2021. If so, it's indeed evident that in each thread somebody supported the blacklisting because it's a blog or unreliable. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Actually, in the most recent one (two years ago) they appeared to oppose it because of the affiliate links. Also, as the OP points out, whilst it might have started as a blog-like website, it now has editorial staff, so the arguments from the previous discussions (certainly the 2018 and 2019 ones) may not still apply. Probably the best thing is to have another discussion. Black Kite (talk) 14:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• The news section (https://www.moneysavingexpert .com/news/) of the site is absolutely a reliable source. They have both an editorial team and editorial code (see https://www.moneysavingexpert .com/site/editorial-code/), as Black Kite has said Martin Lewis is a "go to" expert for UK media on financial issues, and the site has strong use by others in general for this purpose. With respect to the spam-blocklist if there's still a concern about the non-news articles containing affiliate links, all of the news articles on the site use a URL schema that includes /news/ within the URL (eg, https://www.moneysavingexpert .com/news/2023/07/martin-lewis-urges-link-money-mental-health-services/), and as the blocklist seems to be regex based, I think we could allowlist the news articles, while leaving the rest of the main site and the forum subdomain blocked. That's probably a discussion for MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist however. Sideswipe9th (talk) 14:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Irony of ironies, making this comment was difficult because of the blocklist, which in turn makes linking to specific parts of the website demonstrating reliability difficult. If you want to check those URLs, remove the space before .com. Sideswipe9th (talk) 14:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  I ask here because the response to any unblocking has been that it is unreliable, while in my opinion, the guides for consumers are reliable (on say what a regular saver is or what a credit union is). Obviously MSE should not be used for statements like 'X is the best/cheapest/highest quality Y', but that's not a reliability issue, that's because Wikipedia is not a catalogue or price comparison website.

  Whitelisting news would help, but item I want to link to (https://www.moneysavingexpert .com/loans/credit-unions/) isn't under the news subdomain. Perhaps only the forum would be blacklisted, but even that seems excessive - the spam blacklist is not an exhaustive list of every forum, and WP:Spam blacklist states that blacklisting a URL should be used as a last resort against spammers, looking through the discussions, I see no evidence that the alternatives that are suggested by the guidance were tried or even that there was any spam in the first place. Indeed Aldaden asked for evidence of such a campaign, and got nothing back (though now I am straying into the topic that should be dealt with by a discussion on the blacklist's board).

  Thank-you and best wishes, ~ El D. (talk to me) 17:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

It was added on 4 December 2018 by Beetstra after a request by Newslinger who made the original proposal saying "egregiously spammed" and "... not a reliable source". Peter Gulutzan (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

And for the second time in this thread, that was the site in 2018 (which was mainly a financial blog), not the site as it exists today (which is an influential website with multiple editors). Black Kite (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for linking the original proposal. I can't speak for the site in 2018, but at present, it has a paid and experienced editorial team. The only blog I can find on the site is that of Martin Lewis and I would suggest that he qualifies as a subject matter expert, given that the BBC has given him a weekly podcast (https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/). With respect to Newslinger, I do not think that WikiProject Spam is the right venue to determine if a source is reliable. ~ El D. (talk to me) 19:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support removing the blacklist per others. The source is reliable wrt facts about UK financial consumer issues. -- Colin°^Talk 10:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a pdf of a book published in 2002 by the Institute of Sindhology, associated with the University of Karachi in Pakistan. It is being used at Kalhora to support some rather obscure genealogy relating to what became, well over 10 generations later, the Kalhora dynasty that governed most of Sindh ca. 1701-1783.

The book has no footnotes, although there is a bibliography comprising 53 items. It has list of errors comprising four pages of mostly single-line entries. It was written by someone whose day job appears to have been practising law but who was also considered to be a dramatist, short story writer, journalist & publisher of 20 or so books, as well as being a researcher.

The book seems to agree with Sarah Ansari's opinion that one Adam Shah Kalhoro was a dynastic ancestor but, unlike her, believes the line can be traced back a further 10 generations, seemingly using what we generally consider here to be extremely dubious older documents. In extending that line, it seems to supports an origin claim (to the Abbasis) which Ansari says is almost certainly untrue - a myth of origin. I don't think the book's primary focus is dynastic matters, being really about a poet. And in tracing the line back it skips nine generations, noting that Adam Shah Kalhoro is the first person who "stands clearly out of the mist of history" (p. 7).

The first seven pages cover the issue. For Ansari's view, see Sarah F. D. Ansari (31 January 1992). Sufi Saints and State Power: The Pirs of Sind, 1843-1947. Cambridge University Press. pp. 32–34. ISBN 978-0-521-40530-0.

We could show both opinions, indeed I have done that for now, but I'm quite concerned regarding the general shoddiness & apparent lack of academic rigour of the 2002 book. There is some discussion at Talk:Kalhora. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 08:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the book may be a posthumous publication - see here. - Sitush (talk) 10:51, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks indeed somewhat questionable. The first individual of this dynasty, who stands clearly out of the mist of history is Adam Shah can just mean that he is the first person for whom more than minimal information is available. However After Ibrahim or Kalhore Khan, nothing is found in the history about this family or tirbe for the nine generations, till the coming of Adam Shah on the scenery of the horizon of history. suggests that there is no information available for those nine generations. That would make it impossible to establish any relation between Kalhore Khan and Adam Shah. That combined with the lack of information about sources makes me think that this should at most be mentioned as an opinion or as speculation, not as in any way reliable. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

So it appears to be pure speculation or wishful thinking. Doug Weller talk 11:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• I haven't looked at this book specifically (yet) but commented on another publication of the Institute of Sindhology, which makes me extremely doubtful of any publication originating from there that has not been independently and critically reviewed by experts in the area. Abecedare (talk) 17:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I have been editing Institute of Sindhology since filing the above. I have just made this edit using a source that was already present but which supported nothing of what it was being used to support. It is an excoriating criticism, including of their publication program; I have yet to find a rebuttal other than what the newspaper shows in its article. (I'm also a bit concerned about a sort of walled garden effect being created - see my note on the related Talk:Sindhology.) - Sitush (talk) Messed this up: there is criticism of the IoS but the bit about publications relates to the Sindhi Language Authority, which is independent of it. - Sitush (talk) 15:50, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Sources: Defined as blogs under the Vox-owned SB Nation brand, with paid but not full-time staff and freelanced content. This explicitly does not consider SB Nation's volunteer, amateur, or semiprofessional-run fanblogs, which already fall more clearly under WP:SPORTCRIT's guidelines against fanblogs and similar works.

All for XI, a women's association football blog, is being specifically debated on WP:Articles for deletion/Dakota Mills by @JoelleJay and @Newimpartial). It's cited in numerous articles. Its initial, past, and current editorial staff includes current or former freelancers who work for RS non-Vox publications; its initial managing editor Steph Yang is now a full-time staff writer for The Athletic, and her successors Kudzi Musarurwa and Erica Ayala are freelancers for The Athletic. Its current authors include Jenna Tonelli, an active freelancer for the New York Post's sports RS carveout and for RS New York Magazine, and Sophie Lawson, who covered the 2022 UEFA Women's Euro and 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup for ESPN (1, 2). Other similarly staffed blogs include Outsports, Secret Base, and SB Nation itself.

Per @JoelleJay:

The All for XI source is a group blog with content submitted by contributors, not journalists, and administered by "managers" and "authors" whose names just link to their SBNation user profile. It is not RS.

Per @Newimpartial:

I don't know what your issue with SBnation is; some of the best journalists covering women's football may be found publishing there.

Per @Jogurney, emphasis mine:

The SBNation article has a few useful sentences about Mills' performance in three Olympic qualifying matches (probably a little more than "routine"), but I'm unsure of its status as a reliable source versus a host for All for XI's blogposts.

Articles: The above Dakota Mills AfD; if All for XI is not a RS, then Jenna Bike, Jennifer Cudjoe, and Domi Richardson might not meet WP:GNG based on their current citations. It's the sole cited presumed-RS source for WP:BIO statements in those articles, as well as in Martin Sjögren, Manuela Zinsberger, and Taylor Aylmer, and if All for XI is not a RS then those statements should be flagged, differently sourced, or WP:BLPREMOVEd.

Content: In Dakota Mills, All for XI 's status as RS is debated toward the subject's potential notability in its AfD because one of its articles included a biographical detail about her, but that detail is not used in the article. The same article is cited for a biographical detail in Cloey Uddenberg.

In Jenna Bike:

In 2022, NWSL club NJ/NY Gotham FC invited Bike to its open tryouts, and she stepped away from her doctorate program to pursue a professional soccer career. ... In January 2023, Chicago Red Stars coach Chris Petrucelli contacted Bike about the team's need for a winger. The team subsequently signed Bike from the NWSL waiver wire to a two-year contract with an option for a third year, where she returned to playing as a forward.

In Domi Richardson:

Richardson suffered a medial meniscus tear during practice in 2022, ending her season. Gotham FC did not exercise the club's option on her contract, releasing her in 2023.

-63.224.250.203 (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC) — 63.224.250.203 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. This IP made this filing immediately after placing prod notices on about 100 articles about female footballers, including ones profiled by The Guardian or awarded national Player of the year honors. Those were the only previous edits from this IP. Template added by Newimpartial (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment. The only previous discussion of a SB Nation property not specific to a team is Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_141#bloodyelbow from 2013, where @Mtking makes the same assertion as @JoelleJay in the Mills AfD suggesting the website's author-page functionality pointing to a user-profile page indicates that the site cannot be a RS. -63.224.250.203 (talk) 20:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not aware of any policy support for the idea that a profile page link invalidates the reliability of a source, FWIW. Newimpartial (talk) 21:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Just for reference, the articles to which the last two statements are sourced were both written by Jenna Tonelli, respected soccer journalist for The Equalizer. Newimpartial (talk) 20:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I mentioned Tonelli's more mainstream work above. If All for XI is not RS, The Equalizer arguably has even less to stand on for reliability. Equalizer, and particularly co-founders and site operators Jeff Kassouf's and Dan Lauletta's work there, is even closer to WP:SPS than XI; at least XI is ultimately accountable to Vox. The Athletic, the Post, and NY Mag appear to be more meaningful in this scope. -63.224.250.203 (talk) 21:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

SBNation team blog contributors and managers are not held to the standards that professional journalism demands; while their content must abide by the general Vox ethics guidelines, there is no evidence of direct editorial oversight for the 300+ community blogs. Contributors and managers are amateur part-time freelancers; some of them are only identified by a pseudonymous SBNation username with the only means of contact being Twitter (and only if they share their Twitter account). In other discussions, like this one started by @Hog Farm, editors have even been leery about using SBNation proper as a source for non-controversial (and obviously non-BLP) statistical content, with possible exceptions on articles authored by extremely well-known experts.

That a freelancer writes for other publications that do have acceptable journalistic standards is irrelevant, in the same way that an expert with a blog is still prohibited as a source on BLPs: Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer. JoelleJay (talk) 23:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

To start, I lean in agreement with you that XI isn't inherently reliable. I also think it's not inherently unreliable; I disagree that it isn't "content submitted by contributors, not journalists," by pointing out that the writers and editors involved are journalists but for other publications, and are not self-published, but by a narrow distinction that could mean similar sources are also unreliable by association. (At a minimum, how we're using the terms "contributors" and "journalists" may also differ, leading to confusion.)

I also don't want the discussion on the Mills AfD about the reliability of XI to be limited to that AfD. If a source is inherently unreliable, it benefits everyone to confirm that via consensus so we don't have to re-litigate each time they're removed, or articles that rely on them are in AfD. And if the consensus is that such sources should be judged case-by-case, that should also be made clear so they aren't eliminated from contention without discussion on the specific piece's own reliability.

XI is in the middle of publishing a significant amount of Women's World Cup content that will likely be cited in articles about players and managers, and if we can establish consensus on its reliability, we can point to that sooner than later.

As a point of order and not in contest to your assertions, All for XI is not a team blog, and I'm trying very intentionally to not include team blogs in this discussion because they're already covered as unreliable by WP:SPORTCRIT. I want to make sure the edge cases of SB Nation "community" works like, and not limited to, XI which aren't built around a specific team are also covered.

In the linked discussion with @Hog Farm, they also state: "However, distinction should be made between (Jon Bois's) serious reporting and satirical let's-break-video-games output. I think a lot of it depends on the site, especially with the team-specific sites." Is this a worthwhile distinction? If so, is there such a distinction that can be made for XI, and should that distinction be made universally or case-by-case for "serious" reporting by recognized experts, per @Mackensen and @Walter Görlitz in that discussion? (It at least sounds like, on that point, you don't agree.) -63.224.250.203 (talk) 01:17, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I am approaching the "contributors" issue from the consensus position at numerous other RSN discussions that treat contributed pieces (keeping in mind that "contributors" are typically also compensated but are distinct from the full-time paid staff hired by the main publisher) as generally unreliable or at least questionably reliable even when they're published in sources with defined editorial processes. See, for example, the RSP entries on Encyclopaedia Britannica, Entrepreneur (there is a consensus that "contributor" pieces in the publication should be treated as self-published, similar to Forbes.com contributors), Forbes, HuffPost, WhatCulture (WhatCulture is considered generally unreliable. Contributors "do not need to have any relevant experience or hold any particular qualifications"), etc. JoelleJay (talk) 03:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

And I don't think there is any distinction between the team sites and the other community blogs. JoelleJay (talk) 03:02, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I know you don't think there's a distinction, but the wording in WP:SPORTCRIT, which calls out "fan sites and blogs" and "team sites and governing sports bodies", makes something like XI — which also doesn't look WP:SPS to an untrained (and some trained) eyes — that shouldn't pass look like it could. WP:NEWSBLOG doesn't serve well here, since associations with SBN or Vox can make people think that applies instead of WP:SPS.

Barring expansion of WP:SPORTCRIT, we can comprehensively and unambiguously judge many more unreliable sources through at least noticeboard consensus on non-team, non-fanwork "community blogs" and freelancer group blogs, like XI. And if XI isn't reliable, arguably neither are any publications run by semi-professional freelancers who publish each other's work and lack editorial departments that don't appear to pass RS muster, like those still hosted by SBNation and Fansided and arguably also independent ones like The Equalizer, now-dead but still-cited Excelle Sports, The IX, The Ice Garden, former SBNation blogs that've become independent such as Stumptown Footy, etc., many of which are run by and publish the same writers published by XI or SBNation group blogs with similarly few editorial resources. -63.224.250.203 (talk) 17:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, part of the reason I raise this is that I had interpreted the policies and guidelines in WP:SPS and WP:SPORTCRIT as allowing works like XI because it didn't appear self-published and the writers themselves had shown reliability. I don't doubt that @JoelleJay as a more experienced Wikipedia editor has a better-informed interpretation of the rules, but that interpretation is not clearly reflected in the rules themselves — it requires a degree of institutional knowledge that new editors don't have. Clarifying that via a noticeboard consensus that experienced editors can point to and say "this is why" without having to relitigate each time a non-RS source is used seems like it would help more editors make better decisions and reduce friction when removing non-RS statements from BLP or raising non-notable articles for AfD. -63.224.250.203 (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• I've always found SB Nation to be a decent source and have cited it a few times on gridiron football articles; additionally, as I pointed out in the AfD, its cited here over ten thousand times just as SB Nation, which does not include the countless references to the sub-websites. That would indicate there's a lot of other users who believe it has sufficient reliability. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  its cited here over ten thousand times just as SB Nation, which does not include the countless references to the sub-websites. That would indicate there's a lot of other users who believe it has sufficient reliability. You know better than to use that argument... I couldn't say how many thousands of references to Pinterest (still has 1700+ links) and Getty images (2400+) and blogspot (78000+) I've removed. JoelleJay (talk) 00:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  Widespread citation is a reason to raise consensus about reliability, but not a reason to consider the source inherently reliable. I agree with @JoelleJay here. 63.224.250.203 (talk) 01:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I participated in a limited way in the 2020 discussion. I think evaluating SB Nation reliability is complicated and depends on the author and the context (also the time period; Vox gutted parts of SB Nation since then). I do college football and I'm unfamiliar with All for XI. I think the usual questions apply. Is there editorial oversight? Are the authors identified? What do other sources think of this source? What is the tenor and overall quality of what the source publishes? I would also draw a distinction between citing something on SB Nation for facts and using SB Nation to establish notability. Again, that would be a contextual inquiry. Mackensen (talk) 02:12, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Having been pinged here twice, here's my two cents: SB Nation should generally be used sparingly, as a WP:SPS source. The team-specific and other lower-level sub blogs usually have lower standards of editorial review to the extent that I would not recommend citing them. Vox gutted the overall site several years ago, and many of the better writers are no longer there; at one point I thought it might get up there to the RS bar, but it's very much a different trajectory since then. Aside from a few more recognized experts like the Jon Bois or Geoff Schwartz, the opinion pieces are going to be almost always WP:UNDUE, and any news of particular import is generally going to be covered by better sources. Unless it's one of the pieces by Schwartz or someone who can be pointed to establishing WP:SPS credentials outside of that publication, there really isn't much of a need to cite it. If you're having to base notability on these publications, you should probably be asking yourself "is this really that significant if other outlets aren't reporting on this". Hog Farm _Talk 02:23, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Hog Farm and @Mackensen. I think another context to be considered is whether these blogs can be used at all for BLP material, since even SPS from recognized experts is not permitted there. Without positive confirmation that content from these part-time freelance contributors is consistently high-quality and is edited to consistently high journalistic standards, I don't think even articles from Jon Bois would be acceptable (and I say this as someone who has watched his Pretty Good episode on the 222–0 Georgia Tech–Cumberland game probably half a dozen times and whose 2014 Twitter output was *cringes* almost exclusively BEEFTANK retweets...). JoelleJay (talk) 02:45, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• This looks like a group blog so WP:SPS would apply, reliability would be based on who the author is and it shouldn't be used in BLPs. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 16:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)