Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 118

When you combine two Regional Indicator Symbols to form a ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 two-letter country code some devices (Android, iOS, OS X) interpret the symbols by displaying the flag of the country. Originally only 10 flags (CN, DE, ES, FR, GB, IT, JP, KR, RU and US) were supported by Apple and Google. When Android 5.0 "Lollipop" was released hundreds of flags were added to the operating system, the Unicode specification already supported those flags but no major company actually supported them until then. We currently only have redirects for the original 10, so I propose to create redirects for all other flags. I created a list (here) with the code (for readability), the emoji code (where the redirect comes from) and where the redirect should go. This was already requested on the administrator' noticeboard and bot requests, but it was suggested to reach consensus here first. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 14:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I can only imagine such a character combination to end up in the search box from someone who wonders what that little symbol is they are looking at. Since redirects are cheap, I have no real objections to it. Traffic for these redirects is really low, but there is traffic. http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/%F0%9F%87%B7%F0%9F%87% http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/%F0%9F%87%AB%F0%9F%87%B7 . I vote strong sure, whatever. I learned something new today. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 16:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi all,

I am posting this here because I am not sure of any better place. I propose introducing this category. It has been tested for the last 7 months in 12 Wikipedia languages, and has been succesfully used to add images to 18.000 pages.

In short it means:

• Make a category of pages that have no image - but have an image on Wikidata
• Someone adds an image
• The article automatically disappears from the category
• All images are from Commons and are free
• The category is hidden, and not visible to the reader

How it works is by a template that is added to the infobox template used in articles. This compares the template section "image" to that same section on Wikidata. If there is no image it is added to the category, if there is an image it is not. The category has flaws, only about 90% of suggestions are usefull. For example images outside the template are not counted, second templates and some images on Wikidata are not usefull to Wikipedia. After a while you end up with only useless image suggestions, but on the English Wikipedia it will still produce several thousands of images before this stage is reached. Because it uses infobox templates, very few changes are needed to fully remove the category again if it becomes out of use.

My proposal is to only introduce this category for now, since it is the most usefull, and not any of the other 4 categories at simple:User:Taketa/Wikidata Images. This to keep it simple for the moment. I would appreciate feedback on whether or not we should introduce this category to Wikipedia.

Sincerely, Taketa (talk) 23:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

PS: as a sidenote, I have already added about 800 images to the English Wikipedia, purely as a side effect of the category on the 12 other Wikipedias when I noticed the English Wikipedia also did not have an image. - Taketa (talk) 23:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea. Also, if it could be broken down by subject area (even as an occasional report), that would be even better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

My proposal: In addition to watchlisting a single page, we also add these options:

• Watchlist a page and all transcluded templates (This would, technically permitting, be dynamic, updating the watch list as templates are added and removed)
• Watchlist a page and all sub-pages (Same as above, dynamic if possible)

The transcluded pages option would help in the situation described at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 117#Changing templates, where editors might not be aware of template changes on there favorite pages. The sub-pages would be helpful for pages like this one, allowing you to watch this page and all its archives, for example. Hoping to find support for these proposals. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 07:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment How about an alternate approach, add a watch list preference option that causes transcluded templates of watched pages also to be shown similar to the "Show Wikidata edits in your watchlist" option. Something like "Show transcluded template edits in your watchlist"? PaleAqua (talk) 07:43, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

  Well, I would think that you might want some pages watched with templates and some without. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 07:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

  I think it would be more likely to be interesting to be able to watch templates for every page I watch, but to be able to turn that on and off without having to remove and re-add pages to my watchlist and without worrying that the last change viewed got reset if I did. Also we already have a precedent with Wikidata, seems like it would be more confusing to have two similar features work very differently. Finally my approach avoids changing how the watch list is edited, including raw watch list, and simplifies adding pages to the watch list. Instead of having to worry about a page being in the watch list in one of two states. PaleAqua (talk) 01:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• Unsurprisingly, I support this proposal. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I've got basic functionality for watching up at User:Martijn Hoekstra/watchthingy.js but I need help from someone who knows what they're doing in JS (both to tie it to the little star, and to make the code not suck). Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 01:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support, though it might be easier to implement as PaleAqua suggested. —PC-XT+ 23:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment, while working on this, I encountered some ambiguities, especially for the "static" case proposed by PaleAqua:
  • When watching a page, all transcluded pages are watched as well. When unwatching a page, do all transcluded pages get unwatched as well? None? Only those that are not transcluded on other pages you are watching? Or is watching transclusions a one-way street, and do they have to be unwatched on a case-by-case basis. The last is clearly implemented most easily.
  • Should a page that has some transclusions watched display its transclusions watched or not watched, or a third option? I think it should show unwatched.
• What would you all like to see done first, a userscript that can watch transclusions, one way street, at least at first, or a userscript that can augment the watchlist to show transcluded pages too (but no option to differentiate between pages that do or don't watch transclusions)? Both my time and my skill are limited, so I'd like to prioritize based on demand. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

  You can now import this script (importScript("User:Martijn Hoekstra/watchthingy.js"); in your common.js), and the basic watchlisting should work. If anyone wants to try that work in progress and provide feedback, I'd be really happy. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment While these would undoubtedly be very useful changes, proposals to modify the operation of the watchlist have been made for a long time and the Foundation and developers do not seem keen on implementing the suggestions that have already been made (which include multiple watchlists, being able to watchlist an article for a specific period, watchlisting category membership or template use, a personally auditable log of when you put items on or took items off the watchlist). I'd love to have the watchlist be brought into the current decade but I'm not sure that such improvement is likely to be implemented any time soon. —Tom Morris (talk) 16:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Tom, I'm finding that with the API it's fairly doable to implement anything that doesn't have a database component on the client side. The bare bones version for watching all transclusions on a page is already done, and works. When "works" will turn in to "works well", I'll go for the dynamic watchlist for transclusions. If I can get enough help from people who do actually know how to work with JavaScript, and the functionality is considered useful, this could probably easily be turned into a gadget. Sitting back and blaming it on the foundation is only ~20% as fun as fixing it. 17:10, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
    • But blaming the foundation is just what Wikipedians do. If we don't have that, they what? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 21:28, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
  • There has actually been a little positive chat about multiple watchlists among the devs again. It's much too early to predict an outcome, but it's possible that we might (finally) see some progress on that. I'm not certain, but I believe that mw:Requests for comment/Support for user-specific page lists in core would be the main page to watch for any developments (if they actually eventuate). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Please forgive me if I am posting in the wrong section--saw that an old message from several years ago recommended this proposal be taken here. It looks like for several years the ICD-9 template has been pointed towards a commercial site. Many users have raised complaints on the talk page over many years, though this issue has never been rectified. The template has also been edit protected. Can someone please take a look and weigh in? -download 21:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Infobox links like that are regulated by WP:External links guideline, which treats for-profit and non-profit websites identically. However, if you would like to get this one changed, your best bet is to propose a viable alternative. If memory serves, nobody who has objected so far has actually been able to (or bothered to?) find a non-commercial alternative. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:03, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why not. AWB has made my life much easier, but it is still kinda tiring to have to manually put the "See also" section in its right place when AWB detects that error. Tetra quark ^{(don't be shy)} 23:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Can you help me to translate . It could be a good article for our encyclpedia. Regards. --Panam2014 (talk) 09:46, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Stub created at Typhaine case for any Francophone who wants to tackle this: Noyster (talk), 16:05, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello all. I am proposing this based on the recent ARBCOM case talk page statement 3.Administrator misconduct is our responsibility because the community has failed to come up with a workable community recall process. If a call is made to make it editor business I think we should heed that call.

My proposal is simple; essentially we would run a reverse RfA (60% threshold) for the community to decide if conduct is severe enough to remove the admin from their position. The filer would be given 500 words and 50 diffs, the admin 500 words and 50 diffs and any additional individuals may submit 100 words or 10 diffs if they feel something is overlooked, with judicious hatting of irrelevent material. Any users that would be considered involved with regards to the admin would not be counted in any consensus phase.

I believe this will help in two ways. First the community has a greater ability to hold people accountable, and the exception to involved individuals will curb the axe to grind concept. Second RfA should become easier, since the individuals who are in that slot can be removed much faster if the community is shown issues with the actions taken. Granted the actual removal of tools will still need someone with rights but I think this would be a positive step for the community. Thoughts? Am I off my rocker and should I climb back to my hole? Tivanir2 (talk) 17:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a perennial proposal and if you want to get it off the ground proposing solutions the issues of the possibility for abuse and requirements for filing would be the best way to go about it. Sam Walton (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It might be helpful to look at how they do it over at the Spanish Wikipedia. (The translation is clunky, I know, but it's readable.) In my opinion, it seems like a sensible and fair system, although a few minor modifications could be made. Apparently, they haven't yet fallen apart, so it is possible. I think we just need to be bold and take a few chances. --Biblioworm 20:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

In due course it could do with some qualifiers re bad-faith or needlessly repeated recall attempts, and some indication of who determines the consensus. But i like the basic principle. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a good proposal. Sam.gov (talk) 22:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

An Arbitrator, speaking for himself alone, doing a bit of off-the-cuff people don't appreciate our behind the scenes work enough whinging (in response, to be fair, to some non-Arbitrator whinging) as part of a multi-part comment isn't a solid basis for a major shift in policy. It's probably not a good idea to frame your proposal that way.

In any case, can you actually think of any real examples of admins who would (or should) be desysopped by this process that you can't deal with through existing processes? I mean, if you can clearly state your case in 500 words and 50 diffs, then congratulations—you can file a request for arbitration. If it's a clear-cut case – and it doesn't involve misconduct by other editors that the ArbCom properly needs to address – then the ArbCom can deal with it expeditiously by motion. (Indeed, it has done so on a number of occasions.) Heck, cases don't even need to reach the stage of acceptance or motion—admins faced with such filings may also resign their bits without being compelled by ArbCom action. (This has also occurred a number of times.)

The solution to the mistaken perception that we cannot desysop admins who behave badly isn't to (re)invent a noisy, flawed, unpleasant new process. It's to better educate editors who hold this misconception about how to use existing processes. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

As the whinging arb in question, my remark was specifically about off-wiki backchannel stuff. Public cases involving a single admin and their misconduct are no more difficult than any other (and can often be handled summarily by motion). The issue is that, absent a community process, we get a large amount of email making all kinds of accusations about admins and these really need a process, perhaps with an investigative element, that falls short of a case, to handle them.  Roger Davies ^talk 09:03, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The emails and accusers should be redirected to WP:TEA or /dev/null as appropriate. Stifle (talk) 10:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

If we need to modify the amount of text and diffs we can. This proposal is mostly to get the ball rolling, and if it can be handled without having to rush to ARBCOM each time we feel there are admin issues I think that will help both ARBCOM and the community. RfA is so difficult because the community is handing you tools and it is harder than it should to revoke them if the person abuses it. As always if requested we can always allow extended requests, 500 and 50 were just arbitrary numbers I used from the initial filing request for ARBCOM. I will be checking on the spanish wiki to see how they do it at the request of another editor. Tivanir2 (talk) 11:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Would it be possible to get rid of the "discussion" portion entirely? Frankly, the interminable and prejudicial chatter is off-putting to many/most. Could we not invite only the posting of diffs and allow uninvolved members of the community to decide for themselves whether an abusive pattern worthy of desysop exists? • Astynax ^talk 18:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• This is a sensible and simple proposal to address this issue in a community-centric way. --Guerillero | My Talk 00:00, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support I usually don't touch these pages, but this seem like a wholly sensible proposal. I'd often wondered how sensible it for an administrator to define their own recall criteria. --ceradon (talk • contribs) 09:23, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support tweaks perhaps needed to length limits to evidence, timeline before !voting, threshold. Support in principle. Hipocrite (talk) 12:59, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose — We have a RfA system which a huge segment of the Wikipedia community feels is broken and this is a proposal to allow it to be revisited for any administrator again and again and again. Having ARBCOM continue to do it is infinitely more preferable to this idea. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:50, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Two responses. First, I think a lot of editors would be more likely to support candidates for admin if they knew they could lose the right more easily. Second, it seems that requests for admin is not the disaster it used to be. The trolls who post useless garbage are mostly gone and the atmosphere isn't all that nasty anymore. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 15:48, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm willing to support if someone can convince me that the process won't become a lynch mob like WP:CSN, WP:QP, etc. Stifle (talk) 16:26, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

That was the reasoning behind not counting involved parties. Also I figure people could move to hat sections if it clearly looks like someone is trying to get revenge, which would be a quick link to conduct problems for refusing to drop the stick over at ANI. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:34, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Even so, you would need to look art everty dispute the admin ever dealt with to find all involved parties. Some users may have long memoriy when it comes to things like this. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:56, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• First of all, I have to call bullshit on the idea that "Administrator misconduct is [ArbCom's] responsibility because the community has failed to come up with a workable community recall process". I'm old enough to remember this fiasco, in which an admin was properly recalled by the community, but refused to step down. ArbCom ruled that recall was a strictly voluntary process, and that the rest of us were suckers for believing in a campaign promise which they refused to enforce. Every thinking person realized at that point that no community process was workable—no de-adminship process is workable unless ArbCom is willing to enforce it. So what really happened is that the community had a process (albeit an imperfect one), but when the rubber hit the road ArbCom didn't back it up and the credibility of the community process collapsed. Granted, this was many years ago—ArbCom has changed a lot, as has Wikipedia—but the current state of affairs was very much created by the actions of previous iterations of ArbCom.
  As for solutions, I'd certainly be open to some kind of community process. I guess I'm pessimistic about the current community—I've noticed that the quality and cluefulness of input at noticeboards like WP:RS/N and WP:BLP/N has sunk to the level of "useless and probably dangerous", so I'm not sure how productive a massive community de-adminship discussion would be. A different option would be to appoint/elect an Admin Review Board consisting of experienced admins and non-admins, who would hear and screen admin-abuse cases. This Board could either be given authority to desysop people themselves, or could decide which complaints had enough substance to pass on for review by ArbCom. Either way, this sort of delegation would likely reduce ArbCom's workload. I think that similar ideas have been proposed in the past and not enacted, so there may well be a fatal flaw I'm overlooking, but those are my 2 cents. MastCell ^Talk 19:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

  The simplest thing may be to make Recall compulsory then? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

  Do you mean in the sense that all admins would have to be open to recall, or that admins who are recalled would be compelled to step down? MastCell ^Talk 20:02, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

  I believe they meant both. If a smaller subsection of editors and admins are selected for the duty that would also be fine though declaring who is fit and unfit to hold such a position will be an interesting process. I essentially meant with the original proposal that once it was discussed by the community there would be a single person or perhaps even ARBCOM that would enforce the decision. This process I was putting forward is by no means suppose to be voluntary, if someone can show how an admin is abusing their power it would act similar to ARBCOM with immediate removal of tools. Granted identifying the enforcing individual (hell even if we appoint a single individual in the capacity that this is all they do) will cause some issues, but I never envisioned this proposal to lack teeth. I don't like playing useless merry go round. Tivanir2 (talk) 20:14, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

  I agree with MastCell's first paragraph. Stifle (talk) 10:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

  • • I also agree with MastCell's first paragraph & the first two sentences of the second paragraph, though my pessimism is not based on those two noticeboards alone. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
• comment - Could start with a community ban for 1 week. If that works nicely make it a month etc 84.106.11.117 (talk) 08:20, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - I believe that the type of admin who, if such a vote started, would have the lowest chances of remaining an admin - is the type who enters heated conflicts and tries to solve problems - as the solutions would tend to satisfy no one - or the type who deals with highly controvertial issues, where any solution would xeem wrong to many users. Unfortunately, these are also the most important types of admin we need to retain. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

  True but there is also a difference between an admin that makes tough calls and one that actually violates usage of tools. As a community I like to think that the average editor can do the "well I think they have made questionable calls, but they didn't violate usage of tools." I think the smaller subset discussed by mastcell might be a better plan; also it is possible we could have a rotating pool of people that can deal with this so if anyone would be considered involved with the admin they can recuse and we have more available for decisions. The hardest part is vetting people to ensure they actual know the policies, since that is something that is hard to quantify. Tivanir2 (talk) 13:55, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

  The editor who feels wronged by this admin would probably be more likely to voice his/her opinion than the average editor - partly because the average editor would need to look into the background of the complaint and decide whether or not there was actually a violation, while the editor who feels wronged already knows what the answer is (remove the adminship) and just needs to read the other opinions of users who said so (there will always be at least one, the nominator) and word the reasoning. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:58, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

  I don't think so. MastCell certainly fits all of your criteria (enters conflicts, deals with controversial areas, tries to solve problems), and I really can't see anyone trying to recall him. Perhaps the kind of admin who not only works in heated areas but does so abrasively and offensively might be at risk, but perhaps it would actually be better for us if admins without good social skills didn't work in the most difficult areas, no? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

  I didn't say that admins like MC would be nominated for recall all the time; I said that should such a request be made, they would be at a distinct disadvantage. No admin would be immune to having a recall request made against them; the question is, how likely are they to retain their adminship once such a request is made - and even the civil admin with good social skills, if they handle these areas, are at a disadvantage, while those are the admins we have the highest need to retain. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• Leaning toward support but only leaning because I can see too many ways for such a system to be gamed too easily if there are not additional, very well defined rules in place before a system is actually implemented. John Carter (talk) 15:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
• Tentative support speaking for myself only, though a new member of arb com, (and based on only what I have seen from the outside) I see this as dealing not with cases of gross misuse of tools in a specific incident, which as far I can judge arb com has handled adequately, but with generally subpar administrative behavior, which I doubt that arb com handles at all--nor would I personally want it to. That's the sort of judgment the community should be making, just as it makes the decision to appoint new admins. DGG ( talk ) 16:39, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
• Tentative support Seems good in generalities, but not sure if the specifics would hang us up too much. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:03, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. As the user who initiated the old case where ArbCom refused to validate the community process, I applaud User:MastCell's first paragraph above. I didn't think anybody remembered, but it was a proper disgrace, and disinclined me for many years from having any truck with the committee, whinge whinge. (Though I made an exception for RFAR'ing Jimbo.) It's for sure not easy to desyspop misbehaving admins. I wish it was easier. I understand the risks of an anti-RFA process being flooded by users with personal grudges, but I think it's worth trying. Note the support above from three arbitrators, Euryalus, Guerillero and DGG, who apparently understand the need for a community process. If it's reasonably easy to yank the tools in cases where they don't work out well, even without blatant long-time abuse of the arbitrable type, it would be less dangerous to create new admins to "give them a chance", and then we could lower the bar for new admins. We sorely need new admins. A process which can be discontinued if it turns out not to be useful is a fairly cheap experiment, surely. We should stop eternally talking about de-adminning processes and try something for once. Bishonen | talk 18:58, 14 January 2015 (UTC).

  In my last RFA, there were only 3 or 4 opposes out of 37 that I'd put in the "personal grudges" category, and I would expect that most would be lower than that. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

  I can personally think of at least 3 people in the last year whom I did not support at RfA, but whom I would have supported had a process like this been available. DGG ( talk ) 19:49, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Weak support I suspect there will be some conflict in power since only ArbCom has the authority to desysop admins who do not wish to give up the tools. Though I suppose that'll be remedied if ArbCom just follows the community will on this sort of thing. I also don't want this to purely be for desysopping. Admins should get warnings not to do X, or that Y is in violation of Z policy and that they should generally not do it. I'd rather not shoot them with a shotgun on first attempt, plus that would just lead a lot of !oppose votes to the anti-RfA. Though the oppose !vote did make a great point; Wikipedia is full of ideological battles, users who have felt wronged, and the like. Some person getting involved in a dispute with an admin may, after losing said dispute, watchlist the page for Anti-RFA and latch onto the first complaint against the admin. An unpopular admin decision isn't always one that went against the rules and policies following. Granting that, I weakly support it because I can see some future abuse in the future, but that yes, we shouldn't have to go through a 3 month long ArbCom case to get rid of bad admins. To add, there once was a proposal for an 'admin review' board where you could request outside input on an admin's actions and see if community consensus affirmed such. Maybe this could be a sequential step to that. Tutelary (talk) 20:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
• Information The German Wikipedia has a recall system that mostly seems to work out for them, on balance. I believe that the rules run something like this: if any 50 experienced editors (defined in detail; de.wp has actual votes, and you must meet certain requirements to be able to vote) vote in the space of 30 days to have your admin bit removed, then you are de-sysopped. Any de-sysopped editor is permitted to be re-elected again, through the normal RFA process, immediately. If you survive a de-sysopping vote, then a second vote cannot be opened again for another 365 days. It's not perfect, and I can think of at least one way to game it, but they seem to be satisfied with it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Comparing Reverse-RfA with RfA is like comparing apples with oranges. While I am constantly deliberating over the issue of desyoping or sanctioning poorly performing admins (I recently launched an RfC myself), I oppose reverse RfA in any shape or form. As Od Mishehu points out, truly active 'front-line' admins would certainly be subjected to mob rule and kangaroo court much in the same way that 'oppose' votes on RfA are often vindictive. While the comments of Roger Davies are absolutely valid, here or anywhere else, the only solution, IMO, is a rotating committee of respectable and highly regarded users and/or 'crats who can adjudicate without the background noise of the anti-admin brigade and the peanut gallery, and without the monumental red-tape of the Arbcom. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

  The "monumental red-tape of the Arbcom" is an oft-stated but seldom-examined issue. If we look at the most recent 8 instances at Wikipedia:Former administrators/reason – about a year's worth, going back to December 2013 – where editors' bits were removed under circumstances where there were issues with their conduct (as opposed to lapsing due to inactivity), we find:

  • 4 instances where an editor resigned "under a cloud": Nikkimaria, Kaldari, Jclemens, and Eloquence. (Of those, Jclemens resigned after an ArbCom case request was filed but before it was accepted. Eloquence resigned after a case had been opened; the case was suspended with a motion taking formal notice that the resignation occurred under a cloud.)
  • 2 instances where an editor was desysopped by ArbCom motion: Secret and Toddst1. (Technically, Toddst1 wasn't desysopped, though the effect was the same. He announced his departure from the project, and the ArbCom barred him – by motion, on pain of desysopping – from using his tools without ArbCom's explicit permission should he ever return.)
  • 2 instances where an editor was desysopped after a full arbitration case: Kafziel and Nightscream.

  Some interesting features start to pop out. In the majority of instances now, desysoppings aren't the result of standard-issue, complete, month(s)-long Arbitration cases. Former admins are often capable of reading the writing on the wall when faced with strong community disapproval and well-formed objections to their conduct. The pressure of an ArbCom filing – potential or actual – or the opening of a case is often sufficient to bring about a resignation. (Worth noting is that under-a-cloud resignation has been a specific, codified bar to re-sysopping for only a few years; as far as I can tell, the relevant language was added to WP:ADMIN sometime in 2012. It seems to be a very constructive and useful way to avoid or terminate more cumbersome or formal processes of any flavor.)

  Among the instances that do demand a formal finding by ArbCom, some significant fraction are handled rapidly, by motion. The desysopping of Secret took 15 days from his misuse of the tools to enacting the motion. For Toddst1, it was 7 days from the filing of the first request on RfArb to the motion barring Toddst1 from using his tools.

  Overall, in the last 8 instances of problematic admin conduct, 6 had the tools removed without requiring a full ArbCom case. The perception that the only way to see a 'problem admin' desysopped is through a lengthy arbitration is mistaken, and it would be an error to promulgate new policy predicated on that misconception. Desysoppings through full ArbCom cases are now a minority. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:05, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support. At this point, I support any community-driven desysop process, no matter what the details are. If we finally get a critical mass of people and a proposal is adopted, then it can be tweaked if there are problems with it (i.e. if it turns out it can be too easily co-opted by trouble-stirrer-uppers). But if we wait until we have a perfect proposal, nothing will ever happen. It so happens that I like Mastcell's idea of an admin review panel thingy best, but that doesn't alter the fact that I also support the OP's proposal. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
• Without controls, this proposal will mean that admins can no longer block for disruption or patrol venues like Arbitration Enforcement. Otherwise, once they have sanctioned a critical mass of editors, they will be subject to interminable, retaliatory desysop proposals. If you do something like this, there needs to be at last one restriction: (1) editors may not propose or comment on desysop proposals for any admin who has ever sanctioned them. Probably there should be a second restriction: (2) any editor sanctioned within the last year, and the sanction was not lifted as an error, may not propose or comment on desysop proposals. We can not let editors prone to disruption use a desysop process to create more disruption. On balance, I think our system using ArbCom is lousy, but the best one possible. Jehochman ^Talk 14:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as written - Multiple editors have noted that, without significant restrictions, a community-based recall system would mean that admins who take part in activities such as blocking for disruption would face recall from disruptive editors. A community-based recall system that had restrictions sufficiently strong to avoid that problem might be so complicated that it didn't work. Unless I see a community-based recall system that already contains provisions that protect active admins from being desysopped by disruptive editors, I have to oppose. As it is, without seeing what the fixes are, community-based recall gives the lunatics the keys to the asylum and puts the employees in straitjackets. (In a few cases, "lunatic" isn't a figure of speech. A few disruptive editors really are crazy. Most just act in good faith and don't understand collaboration) Robert McClenon (talk) 16:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support; an actually sensible and workable admin recall proposal! I would agree with DGG's sentiment that there is at least one editor who I recently opposed at RfA who I would have certainly supported had a binding community recall process been available. I trust that the bureaucrats will discount obviously invalid or grudge votes at a recall. That is why they are elected to the position they are: they should know how to judge consensus when promoting admins, and should know how to judge it when removing admins as well. StringTheory11 (t • c) 20:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

All of these are good points. I am trying to improve the overall setup in the below posts, and I hope I encapsulated everything. If I did miss something let me know. I mainly put this here to get the ball rolling; I think this proposal is doable with the right input and caveats, which will give us a much better community process. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I was actually inclined to support the above, but the tweaks below lead me to a rather different inclination - so I don't think I have a view. You might be getting ahead of yourself with the tweaks maybe. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:20, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose i used to be strongly in favor of a community-based binding recall process for admins, but I have come to realize that such a thing would inevitably have a chilling effect. We would see good, bold admins who deal with problems head on being constantly challenged by the vocal minority who basically hates all admins and thinks we are all corrupt. Good admins would end up walking away rather than facing these constant challenges, and we'd be left with milquetoast admins scared to do anything real. (yes, these do exist, in larger numbers than you may think)

Additionally, having participated in arbcom desysyopping proceedings both as a filing party and an arbitrator I find that this process actually works pretty well. In the case I brought to the committee I came correct, I had evidence of recent misuse of the tools and evidence that said misuse was part of an ongoing pattern going back some time. It is only when you have such evidence that an admin should be removed, and they were. And during my term as an arb we removed several other admins who showed a pattern of poor judgement. Is it a perfect system? No, but it is better than this idea. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:05, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

In the last few years I've noticed a profusion of maintenance template spam. At first we had maintenance templates that would warn readers about serious article defects, such as {{COI}}, {{NPOV}} and {{notability}}. These warnings served a purpose: to help prevent readers from placing too much reliance on questionable articles under development. Over time, more and more maintenance templates have appeared, such as {{Lead too long}} and {{lead too short}}. I propose that we establish a guideline that maintenance template should only be placed on articles for serious problems. Minor style issues, such as length of the lead, should be noted on the article talk page. There's no problem if the talk page suggestions are free form text or a predesigned template. The important thing is that we don't damage the user experience by cluttering articles with maintenance templates about relatively minor issues. Jehochman ^Talk 17:33, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting thought, though it would beg the question of what constitutes a major vs. minor issue. DonIago (talk) 18:49, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

It would be a great idea to cover that in a Wikipedia:Maintenance tags guideline. We don't need to presuppose the results. When there is a disagreement among editors, they can discuss it and then record the result in that one place for all to see. Jehochman ^Talk 20:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'll also note, after the attempt to move {{Orphan}} tags to the talk page, it gathering consensus, and then consensus being overturned because it has been established that maintenance tags can not feasibly be moved and maintained on talk pages. None of our bots or tools support it, and it has already been stated that since a major rewrite of the tools and bots would be required to do so, it isn't likely that is going to happen.

This doesn't mean I'm saying that reducing these tags are a bad idea or changing the way they are show is a bad idea. It shouldn't be very difficult to make the same kinds of adjustments to other templates as the ones made to Orphan so that they will be hidden with css after a certain amount of time so that they aren't seen in general most of the time except those users that want to see them such as WP:GOCE members perhaps.

Which makes me think, I'd really like to hear from the WikiProjects that use these tags. I've no idea which projects use which tags, but if someone can post a "please see" on the talk page of any project that might be interested, that would be great. I'll get WP:GOCE. :)

Another possible idea to filter these tags is to have some kind of WikiProject that is focused on the user experience (does one already exist?) that ideas for new maint tags could be proposed to. The project could assist in proper development or try to explain why the proposal would never work in a friendly manner. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 14:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Since when were maintenance templates supposed to "warn" the reader? I always thought the purpose was to identify issues for interested people to fix (if the tagger doesn't feel able to fix it themself), and to point out to readers something they might be able to do and so possibly get them to become an editor. Anomie⚔ 01:03, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• I thank Jehochman for bringing this up, it's something that's been obthering me ever since our community driven initiatives to clean up and improve New Page Patrolling were wrested from us by the Foundation. Admittedly they then gave us the excellent new New Page Feed and its associated Curation Tool, but after nearly 2 years of empirical operation some tweaks and improvements are desirable. The downside is that while occasionally the WMF devs will step in to repair bugs that cause downtime or malfunction, the Foundation considers this suite of software to be complet(ed) and will apparently not entertain according dev time to it.

As one of the most experienced users of it and well aware of its deficiencies, if I were a programer I would simply boldly rationalise those tags myself. Many of them are hardly ever used and the number of them originally grew when WP:Twinkle (and before that, WP:Friendly) was still the standard script for tagging at NPP and new things were added to it in GF on simple request to Azatoth who, if I correctly recall, is/was the main developer of Twinkle. I would gladly work with Jehochman or someone together to reduce these templates to a sensible and manageable number. I seem to remember doing some work on this some years ago with DGG but I can't locate the project it was part of. There may be something to be gained by looking at this. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

@Anomie: & @Technical 13:: Maintenance tags serve both purposes: to alert regular maintenance editors/projects to address the issues, and to warn readers that the content may not be factually accurate and invite them to do some editing. WP:NPP is quite extensive as a tutorial for patrollers (Scottywong and I wrote/rewrote most of it) but at the expense of keeping it as short as possible - and it's already long - we didn't address the use of the many maintenance tags, concentrating mainly on training the patrollers to get their CSD tagging correct and accurate. There was a project some time ago, again with DGG to make the texts of various tags less bitey, and we rewrote many of them. There was also some AB testing but I don't believe it was ever conclusive.

The solution to all of this of course is to improve the quality of patrolling and that may ultimately mean introducing some criteria of competency and experience such as we have for AfC and even uniforms to wear for rollbackers and PC reviewers. IMO, NPP is by far the most important of all our quality controls. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you all for your comments, especially Kudpung. I'd be happy to work on a list of the issues that we do need to warn our readers about. Mere style issues, such as length of the lead, sections that need expanding and so on could be relegated to the article talk page. We exist for the reader. We want to provide them a good experience. We shouldn't distract the from their reading with warnings about non-critical issues. How to best accomplish this I do not know, but defining the list of critical issues would be a good place to start.

This discussion is interesting, but let's not limit ourselves artificially. We have other choices beyond "display a big box in the article" and "display a big box on the talk page". For example, there could be a small indicator somewhere on the article page when an article has been tagged as "having issues". Clicking on this indicator could inform a reader that the article is out of date, that it is in need of copy editing, or that it is poorly referenced (these are just examples; we may want big boxes for some kinds of problems and a smaller indicator for minor problems). A regular non-logged-in reader of Wikipedia might not bother with clicking on, or even noticing, the indicator, but the tags behind the indicator would properly place the article in (hidden?) maintenance categories. Maintenance-oriented editors could use a Gadget to make the issues appear in a more visible way within articles, just as we can use CSS to display various errors that are not visible to civilians. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree here, but I would regard such things as being out of date as significant. Perhaps all the templates could be redesigned with a little less visual emphasis. I think moving "orphan" should be revisited, but at least this should be the sort of thing which could go into a problems section. I'll try to give a more specific proposal in a day or two. DGG ( talk ) 06:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC) .

I'm liking this alternate proposal too. Rather than changing the tags just change the display to be less "frightening" or "bitey" to newbies. 104.32.193.6 (talk) 20:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the maintenance templates could be reconfigured to be collapsible, with a brief messge by default and a fuller explanation available should one choose to view it? DonIago (talk) 15:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging the Guild of Copy Editors, with its never-ending backlog :-). There's an excellent essay on tagging (particularly the overtagging section) that would work as a guideline. All the best, Miniapolis 15:23, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Responsible tagging is another good essay which discusses particular tags. Miniapolis 15:27, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• Personally, I would prefer to have all problem tags on the article page itself. This makes it much more likely that someone will do something to fix the problem (certainly I have been motivated to fix problems in articles because I have been embarrassed to see tags on them) and also much more likely that when the problem is fixed the tag will be removed. Yeah, a finished, polished publication shouldn't have such glaring tags on it, but if an article is a work in progress, then I think the motivational benefit outweighs whatever frowny faces are made by people who remain readers but not editors. Some people appreciate the transparency and a peek behind the scenes, anyway. I don't mind the idea of making the tags a little less glaring as a compromise between the ugly factor and the helping-out factor. -- Beland (talk) 16:24, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

• Bringing back the {{wikify}} template would help here - sure, it's vague, but it's better than a bunch of minor issues being spelled out at the top of the article. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 00:43, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Awhile back, I complained at WP:VPP about what I saw as misuse of Reference Desk. Too often, I felt, responders engaged requests for opinion, and my attempt to hat one such thread resulted in a minor shit storm. I was told, basically, to relax, which I did.

Additionally, RD threads often digress into tangential banter that has little to do with the OP's question. In that respect RD is often a local Facebook or chat room. This has also been a problem for me in the past, but I have mellowed there, too (and have occasionally participated myself, especially recently).

I now feel there's nothing wrong with a desire to engage in unproductive conversation with fellow Wikipedians, provided one doesn't overdo it. It would provide a needed release valve and allow us to interact outside the "work" environment (same concept and purpose as a happy hour). It would likely reduce such activity at RD, which would be good for RD. As far as I know, there is no talk space specifically designed for that purpose. Could there be? Should there be?

Please don't refer me to something off-wiki, such as an IRC channel, or suggest the creation of one. Very few people would bother going there, they just need a quick break from editing and click on RD in their watchlist. I certainly wouldn't. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

@Mandruss: I've noticed this sort of thing happens on some user talk pages as well in discussions that start off about some article or topic. Here's an example between myself, Crisco 1492, and Curly Turkey. I generally agree that it's healthy to occasionally engage in a little banter or joking around to loosen things up from the sometimes serious and taxing work of building an encyclopedia. I think many editors would acknowledge these kinds of interactions happen on a lot of spaces on-wiki, not just user talk pages and on the reference desk. I guess the question is, would it be so different or disruptive if we formalized a place for this kind of interaction? I anticipate some folks will argue WP:NOTFACEBOOK and say that such a space is a distraction. And I get that-- we don't want folks to come here simply to socialize. But we've been allowing these discussions happen on the ref desk and talk pages for a long time, and I still see a lot of these same editors doing the hard work. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 23:46, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes. If we're going to allow it, and I think we should allow it, then provide a space where it's legitimate, obviously subject to WP:NOTHERE. That's pretty much the thrust of my comments. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:05, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Struck the beginning of my comments, which had nothing to do with this issue. (Sigh. I need a break at Wikipedia:Happy hour!) ―Mandruss ☎ 01:07, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a community bears on this question. Those short on time could read just the Jimbo quote near the top. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:07, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any sort of change to the way the refdesk works. I tried to talk about changing it in 2013, see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Refdesk reform RFC. The overwhelming response from those that are regulars there could be best summed up as "if it ain't broke don't fix it". They didn't even want a notice on the page clarifying that it isn't really part of the encyclopedia and apparently not subject to the same rules as every other part of WP. Some people like that it is often a free-for-all that bears little to no resemblance to an actual library reference desk, in that librarians will refer you to the relevant material to answer your question instead of just making stuff up or taking wild guesses at what the answer might be. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:48, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I hear you. But I think this is worth doing even if it has no effect at all on RD. Any improvement to RD would be gravy. At the very least, one would have a new option when a thread degenerated into nothing but banter - Take it to Happy hour!. Anyway my main motivation here is not to reform RD. That's an important issue, but a separate one. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Search "everything" does not yet include the possibility to include older versions of articles into the search. The search "everything" should allow this IMO (i.e. query the entire database). 67.83.63.86 (talk) 05:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, I have some concerns about this. This would, for example, make copyright violations and spam searchable. Some of the stuff removed from articles and other pages was removed for good reason. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Would probably also make search times insanely long. ansh666 07:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

You know, something like this might make sense as a script, or something that isn't inherently part of Mediawiki. Not needed most of the time, and I think Ansh is right about excessive search times, but there are certainly cases where it could be useful. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 07:09, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Your concerns are all well taken. I was thinking about when people delete entire section (for various reasons such as censorship, by accident while editing the article, or else) in many articles (and for some important articles this happens more than you might think because not enough editors are watching or paying attention!? - I know first hand.) Cheers! 67.83.63.86 (talk) 01:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

[transferred from Help desk] ―Mandruss ☎ 17:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I've been translating articles from the english Wikipedia and I noticed that there are no templates for creating the standard sections names, such as See also, References and External links. We must write ourselves those names in our own languages (eg: in portuguese they're called "Ver também", "Referências" and "Ligações externas"). It would be much better for the whole community if we could use a template like "{seealso}" (or an abbreviated one) in all the interwikis, so each section name would be translated automatically by the Wikipedia engine to the appropriated language. It would be similar to the Template:lang, but in the case of the section name it would need to write "{seealso}" without informing any parameters. It only brings advantages: revisors will not waste more time fixing errors on those lines, the translators don't need to worry about writing those lines in the correct form for each language, and it makes the inter language pages more compatible. That's my suggestion.Faltur (talk) 17:06, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

That seems fairly easily doable, except that all of the various language Wikipedias would have to agree on a standard title for the template. For example, to get "Ver também", do you type {{seealso|pt}}? And is it possible to host all the templates in one place, like on MediaWiki, or would they have to be recreated on all of the individual wikis? (I don't know the answer - this is out of my realm of experience) I guess it's a question of whether it's worth the effort, if you already know what the headers should be in your language and can just type them in? Ivanvector (talk) 17:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector, we will only need to type {{seealso}} without any arguments. This will create the See also section in the portuguese Wikipedia as Ver também, or in the english as See also, and so on. The section will be created where the person wrote it, the same way as {{reflist}}. There is another template which serves as an excellent example. When we translate tables containing a list of countries, we can use the ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes templates (eg: {{USA}} that returns  United States written in the language of the current Wikipedia). This template exists in all the Wikipedias and it facilitates a lot the translation of ranking tables. We can conclude that this template is portable between the languages, and it only brings advantages for the translators.Faltur (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I see two issues: We have no standard names. The references section could be names References, Notes, Notes and References, Bibiliography and so on; see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout. If a translator has issue translating "References" and "See also" then I would have to question competency. And yes, templates are per wiki, --  Gadget850 ^talk 17:26, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Commons does this, for example c:MediaWiki:filedesc and c:MediaWiki:license-header that are used in section headings as e.g. == {{int:filedesc}} == However, as Gadget850 observes, we don't have standard headings, and this is noted at MOS:APPENDIX, and is the subject of recent discussion on its talk page, e.g. Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout#Works cited and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout#Further reading. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Gadget850, using the ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes templates as example, there are still many english tables which use {{flag|United States}} even if there is the portable version {{USA}} available! You are not going to be suppressed to give whatever name you choose for the section, simply because you will be free to do that. And, come!, everyone knows there are standard names for the pages (See also, External links, References) but they're not imposed by rules. Well, it's not true in my case, because one of the revisors have changed my "External links" (which was written as Portuguese: "Links externos") to the "standard" name (Portuguese: "Ligações externas", used in the featured articles). And this is what motivated me to make this topic. Faltur (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

hurts eyes, please ! I can see it or I can't , progressive its just a placebo no new/relevant information is there while loading an image — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.178.84.72 (talk) 23:52, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I believe that's down to the file being uploaded; is the thumbnail progressive? Or am I missing something? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 11:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Have you tested this with GPRS speed for a "mobile broadband" plan at modem speed after, say, 5GB/month are eaten up? –Be..anyone (talk) 11:44, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I believe that progressive loading is used in Media Viewer. It does not seem to be an especially popular feature.

Media Viewer does not exist on the mobile website (en.m.wikipedia), only on the desktop site (en.wikipedia). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

My laptop is connected to the Internet over "mobile broadband" (UMTS), I just got the "you are at 95% of 5GB" SMS (one week at commons, the next three weeks at GPRS speed.) But if the issue discussed here affects only the media viewer I'm off topic, sorry. –Be..anyone (talk) 19:20, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

You would presumably be getting the desktop website, if you're using your laptop. You can tell by looking at the URL. If there's a ".m." in the middle, then it's the mobile site. I've heard that there are a lot of readers who have switched to the mobile website for reading, even on their desktop/laptop machines, because they find it easier to read, and the preference is "sticky", so the only want to find out it to check your own system. (A link to either Mobile or Desktop view is at the very bottom of the page, if you ever want to see what the other looks like.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Low resolution images would be better than low quality images. --NaBUru38 (talk) 15:44, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

This idea is for the official table editor.
Description: Users will be able to add a list of strings that will fit a specified column automatically. Example: I create an empty table, and now I want to add a list of numbers in a specified column. These numbers will fit each row automatically. If I added 10 numbers, starting from 1, then the table will have 1 column containing 10 rows with numbers from 1 to 10. Then I create a new column and select it, and I'll add a list of countries names, the same way as the numbers. And so on.
Note: the editor must support a list of templates too, because list of countries names may be added using ISO_3166-1_alpha-3 templates, such as {{USA}}, {{NZE}}, {{AFG}}. These templates are portable between all Wikipedia languages, so it's preferable to use them instead of {{flag|United States}}.
Advantages: This will make the process of creating and updating tables from multiple sources a lot easier and faster! Faltur (talk) 01:34, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I think there should be an option on Special:RecentChanges that lets you only view the most recent edits. Sorry I can't go into detail, but I need to go somewhere now. CamelCase (talk | contribs) 02:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, what I meant was that you can only view latest page revisions, like in User Contributions. Like I said, I'm in a hurry. CamelCase (talk | contribs) 02:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

This would be an update to the software - see Wikipedia:Bug reports and feature requests for details. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Whenever you have some time, you might consider changing the heading to something that says something about the topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

This VP page rarely gets those, they tend to go to WP:VPT - where the header does mention that. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to the heading of this section, and speaking to the OP (as indicated by my indent level). ―Mandruss ☎ 07:49, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I've changed the title. CamelCase (talk | contribs) 22:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

This isn't a proposal, but a question that might or might not lead to one. I don't know how article alerts for RfCs, move requests, AfD etc are generated, but I'm guessing it's linked to the templates for those actions. The question: would it (a) technically possible, and (b) even remotely desirable, to add the {{Copyvio}} template to the list of those that do this? I ask because WP:Copyright problems is mostly over-loaded and under-manned, and some WikiProject involvement might help with that; and because copyright clean-up sometimes results in quite drastic changes that people might like to have been warned about. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:50, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The feature requests page is at Wikipedia talk:Article alerts/Feature requests. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 02:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

This is likely to be very uncontroversial, but I'm sure collecting some opinions rather than being (possibly) too bold wouldn't hurt. These pages haven't been actively used in years. Recently I saw one editor updating his status on the North America subpage, so I looked through and see that none of the pages have been even remotely actively updated in far too long. The list is inaccurate and outdated, so it's probably best we mark it historical. Gloss 00:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Hm, I'm surprised. I thought it was bot-maintained, i.e. once you sign yourself up for the page, the bot tracks your usage stats and updates things accordingly. As this isn't the case, I think you're right. Nyttend (talk) 02:43, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Given the lack of replies and as I said this is likely uncontroversial, I'll go ahead and do this soon unless anybody has an objection. Gloss 04:41, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree with marking historical - but if someone wants to write a bot that ensures its accuracy, it might make sense to revive it. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 05:54, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree on both counts. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 02:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• The only reason I can see that this isn't currently being maintained is that the person running the bot that maintained this doesn't want to, doesn't have the time to, or doesn't care enough to make any changes needed to migrate to labs. Let me see if I can dig up the old bot code and figure out what changes need to be made to get it running again on labs. I'm assuming there is no big hurry on marking this as historical, so it may take me a few weeks as RL has limited my available time a bit. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 03:44, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• as of now, we can easily look at current folks listed and remove any that are inactive and see if any are still on the list. Someone could ask folks that are still active and listed for an update and maybe removed anyone who has not edited in 12 months as a starter. My initial thought was to mark it historical, but it strikes me as a nice support network to have to promoted teh community if at all possible. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
• I've done a little digging and apparently my impression there was a bot updating this at one time was wrong. Feel free to mark it as historical and when I have time to start from scratch, I'll create a bot and a new system for this. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 04:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

If someone does a re-boot, I'd say the approach here is totally wrong. The region of the world isn't that important, what matters is who's active. Maybe have a bot update every hour based on who's been making edits? But, that would require some kind of opt-out. Best to mark historical now, since re-booting will take a lot of time and thought to get it right. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 08:02, 7 February 2015 (UTC)