Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 45

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Years of birth

I've opened a discussion at WP:BLPN#Years of birth to discuss whether we should remove years of birth from bios when the subject requests. We remove dates of birth, per WP:BLPPRIVACY, but should we also remove the year if asked (assuming it isn't widely available)? I've had quite a few requests for this over the years, all from women, so I'm wondering whether we should add something to the policy. Any input there would be very welcome. I would bring it back here as a proposal before adding anything to BLP. SarahSV (talk) 20:51, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Use of Satire and Parody in Articles about Living Persons (public figures)

This is not the correct forum for this discussion. If it belongs anywhere other than the article talk page it came from, it's at WP:BLPN where we discuss BLP issues for particular articles. This talk page is for discussion of changes to the policy not for the application of the policy.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ask for comments from the community regarding the use of parody and satire for public figures in articles dealing with living persons. Both Parody and Satire are protected free speech and are an important part of modern literature. Most modern societies which value free speech allow the use of satire and parody as important forms of free speech to comment on matters of public importance, which includes the right of anonymous speakers (such as Wikipedia editors) to promote vigorous public debate on matters of importance to society as a whole. I am requesting comments and suggestions as to what rules, if any, should be applied. Since Wikipedia relies on reliable sources, many of these sources produce editorial cartoons and other materials which serve to comment on issues affecting society as a whole. Banning the use of satire and parody in articles about living persons has a chilling effect on free speech and the rights of anonymous speakers to write from opposing and complementary viewpoints.

I am asking any interested editors what the policy currently is for living persons, and what specific rules would apply to the use of parody and satire in articles dealing with living persons who are prominent public figures. As the BLP policy is currently worded, the use of satire or parody when used to refer to a living person appears to be a violation of WP:BLP. Octoberwoodland (talk) 04:32, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Note for the benefit of confused readers, this thread is spillover from Talk:Killing of Jamal Khashoggi/Archives/ 2#Cartoon of killing of Khashoggi. ‑ Iridescent 07:18, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Context matters - a satirical cartoon is essentially an opinion/op-ed piece (in visual form). Thus, all the caveats and restrictions that govern whether we include an opinion in a BLP (and when and how we do so) apply to satirical cartoons. Who drew the cartoon matters (a cartoon by a well known political cartoonist should be treated differently than one drawn by some random yahoo)... where the cartoon appeared matters (one that was published in a major newspaper should be treated differently than one appearing in a fringe outlet). Also, we would have to include some form of in-text attribution with the cartoon (so the reader knows WHO’S opinion is being expressed by the cartoon). In other words - some cartoons will be OK to include, While other cartoons will not. It has to be judged on a case by case basis. Blueboar (talk) 12:24, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Problems Most cartoons will be WP:NFCC material, and can only be used under very strict conditions to begin with. So, we may have an inherent WP:DUE problem with cartoons that are free (as those are the only ones that can be even possibly used without extensive in-text discussion of the cartoon itself). I agree that we also need to generally view them as opinion in a BLP and also there maybe more specific issues like WP:BLPCRIME. We are also not writing satire (that's The Onion's etc job) so we have to follow WP:BLPSTYLE. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:13, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
These are fantastic comments and explain the issues precisely. Can someone propose an additional section to the WP:BLP policy page which directly addresses satire and parody for living persons? This exception should only apply to public figures and not private individuals. Adding the two paragraphs with some minor edits under a subheading Use of Satire and Parody for Public Figures above seems to cover all the salient points such as issues of fair use, how to evaluate a satirical cartoon, whether or not the cartoon is from a reliable and reputable source, if the cartoon violates WP:BLPCRIME, etc. Octoberwoodland (talk) 01:39, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bios RFCs

We've two active Rfcs at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government concerning infoboxes of politicians. GoodDay (talk) 21:23, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Ethnicity & Religion

Hi, I'm pretty new here (and am already repeating myself! ...a Tea House host suggested that I start this discussion here). I've been surprised by the many references to the ethnicity and/or religion of living persons on Wikipedia. I was especially surprised to see that there's even a categories called "Canadian Jew" and "American Jew". Isn't religion a personal matter? Maybe it's my Canadian showing, mon amis, but, where I live, no one is even allowed to ask... like when someone applies to a school. or for a job or loan, or anything, really... but, then it might just be published on Wikipedia anyway. I can imagine the impact might be even greater on those living and working outside of NA. It seems more odd attached to the living than the dead, too, but that's just my opinion. Sorry! Since its quite pervasive on WP, I suppose that I'd just like to get a little perspective on why religion and race are included on pages and even as categories. What does everyone else think about this? -RFT42 (talk) 21:20, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not supposed to say it, but it's boosterism from fans who take every opportunity to mention their favored tribe. It's a side effect of anyone can edit. Johnuniq (talk) 23:43, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
Categorizations by race, religion or sexual orientation are definitely overextended, and could create real-life problems. Can we trim them as a matter of site policy? I'm not sure that proposal would fly, but it's worth trying. According to Rule 34, it must have been tried already, in many possible ways.[FBDB] — JFG talk 00:06, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree. Tornado chaser (talk) 00:14, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Do we unite to propose more conscientious guidelines for this? Anyone have experience approaching the rules? I'm new here, more experienced Wikipedians, please guide us to higher standards.-RFT42 (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
I'll toss in my two cents. On one hand it is normal and appropriate for biographies to mention religion the religion of the subject. On the other hand all these categories for nationality+religion and religion+occupation are seriously lame. A proposal to eliminate all of those categories would be a pretty sweeping change. If anyone is motivated, it would require an RFC posted to Village Pump Proposals. It should also be listed on Centralized discussion. Alsee (talk) 07:52, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
RFT42, regarding ethnicity, we did have a big discussion at Wikipedia talk:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality#RfC on categorizing biracial people. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:46, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Within the linked discussion, I think a lot of consensus emerged, and seems to teeter on resolution, but without action, as yet, and a bright-line test seems like it would be a wise enterprise, perhaps to become a RFC. Thanks to Alsee and Flyer22 Reborn for these very interesting links. -RFT42 (talk) 05:01, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

WP:PUBLICFIGURE

The phrasing of this is becoming problematic, as its leading to people wanting to rush to include accusations against public figures within days of those accusations being made or reported in RSes, when we really should be waiting for determining if these accusations actually have direct effects on the person accused or otherwise proven true. (This is not just keeping in mind BLP, but also WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:RECENTISM.)

Some case examples:

  • The situation today is around Neil deGrasse Tyson, where three women have reported past sexual misconduct from Tyson against them. Tyson has stated that he had had contact with two of the three, but his version of the events are far less serious than the women described it (that is, they weren't meant to be sexual and he apologized to one shortly thereafter). While Fox and Nat. Geo. are evaluating these claism , we have no idea of their validity or importance. They may go unfounded, and no action against Tyson is taken, in which case there's no point in even including them.
  • A past example is Nolan Bushnell - earlier this year he was set to receive a video game industry award, but then a number of people spoke out about his past behavior while he ran Atari, so the award committee pulled the award, though afterwards, several of his female co-workers at the time came forward to dispute the claims. However, since the accusations affected his career (did not get this award), documenting the situation makes sense.
  • A more extreme example would be the claims that came up during Bret Kavanaugh's SCOTUS hearing. That was part of the public record, by several legislative members, so that absolutely needs to be documented as part of his nomination process.

PUBLICFIGURE or BLP in generally really needs to be more strongly worded to avoid the rush to include accusations against public figures that have not been proven out or have not had any enduring impact. The way it is worded suggests that they should be added as soon as RSes report on them, but we need a lot more care in this and universally across all BLP. --Masem (t) 02:47, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

  • This is covered by WP:NOTGOSSIP. wumbolo ^^^ 12:23, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
    • Not really. None of these situations are gossip or rumor mongering. The accusations were well-published in RSes. The problem is that people want to rush to add these before understanding the big picture, and that's a violation of the intent of NOT#NEWS as well as the concern at BLP. --Masem (t) 15:39, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
      • As sometimes even "reliable sources" can make wrong accusations (Atlanta Olympic bomber etc.) there is no perfect solution. As ever, I find "celebrity gossip" to be a real problem in Wikipedia, and feel that any remotely controversial allegations of crimes must be very strongly supported. . Collect (talk) 00:45, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
        • I think wording that gets along the lines of enduring coverage, impact on the person, etc. needs to be added. Or the language " If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented," needs to be changed, because people are using that to say that the absence of mention is against policy. We need editors to get their heads out of acting like WP is a newspaper and think about the long-term big picture. Some accusations will have immediate effect and it makes sense to document them in light of that. Some will not (as the case with Tyson is proving out, more than a week out and nothing has changed about his career). We've got a media market that is very "vindictive", ready to cover these types of allegations in a heartbeat, but that's not necessary information that ends up in an encyclopedic summary about a person, and that's the logical thought process that this current policy is missing, and instead encourages editors to replicate the court of public opinion before anything can be proven out. --Masem (t) 15:29, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I completely agree... however, I am a firm believer in not trying to write “rules” that will be ignored. Sadly, many our fellow editors like adding stuff like this to articles. We can write all the “rules” we want - telling them not to do so - but it won’t stop them doing so anyway. So... a more practical solution for those of us who dislike stuff like this is to have patience. Let the “it’s in the news so we need to cover it” editors add all the insignificant stuff they want to add... wait until the coverage dies down and attention has moved on to some other scandal... and then go back improve the article by reviewing and removeing the additions that turn out to be insignificant. Blueboar (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
  • See User:Collect/BLP for my study of this problem. The "allegations" should never be presented as "fact" in the first place, and an encyclopedia should be far more circumspect than any newspaper. Removal four years too late is not a rational answer, either. The truth is that any allegation should be directly ascribed to the person making the allegation, and denials of the allegation should be given substantially equal weight to the allegation in the first place. As a bare minimum. Collect (talk) 16:32, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
  • The wording in WP:PUBLICFIGURE is longstanding and has served us reasonably well thus far. It seeks to balance the need for circumspection with the need for accurate and comprehensive coverage, and does a reasonable job at that. In particular, it serves as a bulwark against people who would seek to suppress potentially unflattering but well-sourced and relevant information, which, in my anecdotal experience, seems to be an increasing trend (present company excluded, of course). The policy, as written, provides clear and reasonable guidance on how to handle all three of the cases mentioned by Masem (Tyson, Bushnell, and Kavanaugh). If editors are rushing into print with poorly sourced allegations, then that is a problem, but not one that can be solved by amending this particular wording. I strongly oppose any effort to amend this longstanding and deeply ingrained fundamental policy, absent a more compelling rationale and a strong, well-argued, and diverse consensus. MastCell Talk 18:36, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
  • The policy offers protection for borderline-notable figures, but to have to wait for issues to be "proven" or have "enduring coverage" when writing about public figures would place Wikipedia at odds with the reliable sources. WP:PUBLICFIGURE provides sufficient safeguards, particularly when combined with the avoidance of tabloid journalism:

In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. If the subject has denied such allegations, that should also be reported.

SarahSV (talk) 19:48, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Not really. A lot of this issue comes to NOT#NEWS and that we as an encyclopedia should aim to put much more weight on long-term sourcing about a person rather than what the 24/7 news media is saying now, especially in light of the aftermath of #MeToo, Trump's presidency, or Brexit (to name a few). The media has knee-jerk and vindictive reactions to these things, but per NOT#NEWS, we're supposed to take a more tempered approach and look for what's going to be relevant in the long term. We are not required nor are supposed to mirror RSes but summarize them, and we don't necessarily need to heed what comes under a burst of news coverage if it has no long term impact. (These are factors mirrored in RECENTISM, NEVENT, and GNG for example). Unfortunately, all these relatively recent events creates an environment where editors rush to pick up on what the press is saying on the spot (more primary sourcing) rather than what comes down the road from better secondary souring.
I'm not 100% thrilled with how Blueboar suggests (I'd rather do the wait-and-see approach), but a solution where after enough time has passed and its clear that the allegation went nowhere and thus not affected the person giving us reason to remove the accusation would at least work. (Once the accusation has made an impact, it has to stay). It would at least avoid too much consternation about inclusion when it is a major focal point in the media, while being able to deal with what ends up as a non-controversy once that can be determined. --Masem (t) 23:10, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Verdicts

I've reverted this change, mainly on UNDUE grounds. Obviously if a court reports a verdict it is true, but there is the valid question of due coverage. I've pled guilty to minor traffic offense in court. The fact that there are public records in my jurisdiction indicating that I've driven with a broken speedometer is not something that needs to be in my biography. If a court case is important enough to be mentioned before a conviction, it will also be important enough to be mentioned after one, which means we should still rely on secondary sources before including them. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:16, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

I would say that if we knew a person was being taken to court or tried for a significant event (well beyond speeding tickets), but at the end of the day no one covered the verdict, then the verdict is a reasonable public record as to conclude the matter, particularly if that is a not guilty/acquittal of whatever crime was accused of. But agree in general we shouldn't highlight that addition. --Masem (t) 21:33, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I suppose, but we also shouldn't be including simple charges that have been mentioned once in a paper. A paper's police blotter or one article pre-conviction isn't enough to merit inclusion per WP:BLPCRIME if the person is non-public. The media not reporting on a conviction is actually further evidence that it's not really relevant to the biography, and we'd be moving from a tertiary source on reporting about crime in biographies to a secondary source, which is a major concern. If we're talking about a public figure, well, I personally doubt that if a public figure is convicted there will be no press coverage. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:03, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Right, the charge should be more than a simple civil crime even if that's reported "widely" (which typically tends to be TMZ-style coverage). I'm thinking of cases of a notable banker who was charged with, say, embezzling funds that got a lot of news coverage, but after a two-year trial, he dropped out of the limelight and no one noticed the courts found him not guilty. We should provide that type of closure from public records, but only if the initial charge was something significant to be included properly in a BLP. A charge only reported through a few tabloids or only by court records should not be included at all. --Masem (t) 22:36, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't see any reason for this change. If there's a specific article where someone feels it's necessary, they can make a case for an exception then. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:09, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
  • We do need to make some kind of change to that section, because court transcripts are often the best sources, so long as there are secondary sources to confirm that the hearing is something that ought to be mentioned. That section was added to make sure editors don't pop down to the local courthouse to dig up biographical details from someone's nasty divorce case. But where we have a notable case and verdict, and court transcripts are available, we should be able to use them to some extent. But to what extent? My own rule of thumb is that I use appellate court transcripts, but only when writing about very notable criminal cases. These offer a summary of the trial, and in that sense are secondary sources. But I also use them as primary sources of information about their own decision. I do this because secondary sources often get the details wrong. SarahSV (talk) 22:25, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
    • I think limited use of primary sources here would be fine in line with the standard rules on using them, but with more caution. The real thing that needs to be avoided is something like the borderline notable academic who pled guilty to a domestic violence charge, DUI, etc. having the primary sources dragged up and put in their biography when there is no coverage in secondary sourcing, which is why I reverted. It's less about the reliability of the verdict as much as whether or not we should be covering a case at all. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:34, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
      • I agree. Regarding the question on Iri's page, one example of a decision being added with no secondary sources would be if a guilty verdict were reported by secondary sources and added to a bio, but the successful appeal against that verdict was not reported (let's imagine it's a borderline-notable person and the sources had lost interest). In a case like that, we should add that the appeal was successful, even without a secondary source. Or we should remove the text about the guilty verdict, depending on context. SarahSV (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
        • Perhaps adding a line to BLPCRIME along the lines of (workshoping) The existence of a conviction does not necessarily mean that a crime should be covered in the biography of a subject. Instead editors should determine whether or not it has sufficient coverage in reliable secondary sources for Wikipedia to cover it. The simple existence of a verdict is usually not sufficient to warrant inclusion. or something similar. That would make the point clearer in BLPCRIME, and then an appropriate revision to BLPPRIMARY can be made regarding the relationship these sources can have with secondary sourcing. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:54, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
          • We had something in BLPCRIME (I think) about checking that verdicts had not been overturned, but it seems to have been removed. SarahSV (talk) 23:04, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Interpretation of BLPCRIME

There's an ongoing discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents in December 2018#Manchester stabbing (31 Dec 2018) regarding the application of BLPCRIME, if any watchers here are interested in participating in it. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:53, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Subjects notable only for one event

Someone made an undiscussed bold edit to Subjects notable only for one event section suggesting "we usually ignore them":

I made a partial revert to the edit and my revert was immediately reverted without discussion:

More information Revision as of 19:32, 24 December 2018 ...
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More information Revision as of 20:40, 24 December 2018 – emphasis added to the part I objected ...
Close
More information Revision as of 14:13, 9 January 2019 – my edit ...
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I'm having trouble understanding what "ignore them" is supposed to mean. Could this be clarified somehow and should we go back to status quo version until a new consensus has been reached? Politrukki (talk) 15:12, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree that we should go back to the status quo pending discussion of the initial change. Personally, I would oppose the change as unnecessary and ambiguous. I've restored the version just before the change.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:47, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Is BLPCRIME requirement for conviction too restrictive?

WP:BLPCRIME currently states: For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured.

I think this is too restrictive. In the case of the Kidnapping of Jayme Closs, for example, all of the relevant reliable sources have reported that not only has Jake Patterson confessed to killing her parents, kidnapping her, and keeping her captive for 88 days, but Jayme's statement supports the confession, and no one in his family is even contesting these basic facts. What isn't clear is whether these acts are even crimes. After all, he may be innocent due to insanity. But there is no question that he committed these acts. It has been argued (discussion) that it is a violation of BLPCRIME to say that he committed these acts because there is no conviction. But there may not be a conviction for years, or maybe even never. But whether there is not will never change the fact that he killed her parents and kidnapped her. That is true and will always be true, whether they are crimes or not.

So, I suggest a change or clarification to the "unless a conviction has been secured" wording. One way to handle it is to add the following sentence:

  • However, if there is no question per all relevant reliable sources that a person has committed an act, it is acceptable to state that that person has committed that act, even if that act may eventually be proven to have been a crime.

Comments? Suggestions?

--В²C ☎ 22:29, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I would agree that if it is clear the person has confessed to the crime, and no one is showing serious concern on that (eg if people are concerned that a mentally-handicapped person is asserting to have done the crime) I feel that there's little reason to hide the name, even if at the end of the day they end up as proven innocent. --Masem (t) 22:43, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I suppose I can reword to make it specific to situations where the suspect has confessed, but I thought the broader "there is no question per all relevant reliable sources" covered that case, and any other blatantly obvious ones. --В²C ☎ 23:27, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
We need to be careful about the language "there is no question..." as that may lead to pre-judgmental decisions made by the press without the confession. --Masem (t) 00:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the press being what I was thinking of in my oppose to this below. I also commented on the talk page, but I think B2C is framing this wrong: no one is arguing not to cover the confession. The question is whether or not to say someone did an action. Given all the work that's been done recently on false confessions, stating authoritatively in the voice of the world's 5th largest website that someone did something before the courts have adjudicated that the confession is indeed legally valid and is enough to produce a conviction/allow for a guilty plea, we don't have any business making determinations of fact. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:12, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose if someone has committed a potentially criminal act without a conviction we do not cover it. The proposed wording change would open the door to all manner of loopholes (i.e. "Well, we know they did it even thought charges were never levied, so we're just discussing the factual implications not the criminal implications.")
    In cases like you're describing, it would be fair to note the confession itself, so long as there is substantial coverage in reliable secondary sources, but it would not be acceptable to describe him as a "murderer", as murder is illegal killing and no conviction has occurred. We cannot make that determination, only the courts of the relevant jurisdiction can. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:57, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
    • Okay. Thanks for explaining. —В²C ☎ 07:14, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
      • That not the current policy - which stipulates we should "seriously consider" not including - it does not outright ban including - which may be done in some cases (e.g. international fugitives, in many cases, can not be convicted where they fled from aa many juristrictions do not allow trials in absentia - however in some cases the criminal details do get included on the bio).Icewhiz (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
        • Actually it says we must seriously consider.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:43, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
          • Indeed. But isn’t merely pointing out that he confessed to the crime “suggest the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime”, even though he hasn’t been convicted? Yet there is no dispute about including that material, presumably because it has been widely reported in RS. Right? Is conviction really the right standard for determining whether to include material that merely suggests someone has been accused? I’ve actually been taken to AN/I for starting this discussion but I think it shows there is room for considerable improvement in the BLPCRIME wording. —В²C ☎ 15:07, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment I have mixed feelings. On one hand, B2C makes a good point on the specific example that led directly to this incident. On the other hand, I've seen a proliferation of dubiously notable articles that seem to boil down to "if a crime was done by a person who wasn't white, especially a non-christian, then the crime is notable and we must name the suspect." These sorts of racist constructions have bothered me enough that I've nearly walked away from Wikipedia again over them a few times, especially as they're so hard to get removed. In this circumstance, one of the few tools we have to restrain the worst excesses of this genre has been a rigorous application of WP:BLPCRIME in conjunction with WP:NOTNEWS. In general I would suggest Wikipedia need not speak to every crime to hit the media cycle. Being salacious or shocking is not the same as having lasting significance or encyclopedic relevance. But if we find ourselves with a situation where a crime is considered of lasting significance, having policy in place to restrict how we speak about the accused protects both the civil liberties of the accused and Wikipedia from the appearance of libel. However I would suggest that the solution to the dilemma here would be to first ask the question whether this is in fact a notable crime. And if it is, then perhaps, in this very specific case, where there is an agreed statement of fact (in the form of a confession that does not appear to have been coerced) as to what happened, but not a formal conviction, WP:IAR may be apropos. In short, I don't believe we should weaken the requirements of WP:BLPCRIME because it serves an important function. But we should avoid being so hidebound that we end up with ridiculous situations where we have a notable crime wherein we can't discuss notable details because the person's admission to having-killed hasn't been demonstrated as being criminal yet. Simonm223 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

What to do with the Thot page

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Thot#Thot. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:02, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

An accusation

Is there a general principle that can be applied to the following hypothetical case? (I can't believe this hasn't arisen before, by the way.)

  • A well-known person (i.e. they already have a Wikipedia article) is accused by a non-well-known person.
  • Of a alleged crime, reported in several reliable secondary sources
  • The description of the alleged crime is significant enough to merit criminal and civil actions against the accused.
  • The accused denies the accusation.
  • The accuser in several reliable secondary sources declares not to seek a criminal or civil case against the accused, while maintaining the accusation. (And such action is possible, i.e. there's no statute of limitations, diplomatic immunity, etc. applicable)
  • The accused declares not to a seek a libel/slander action against the accuser.

Is the answer:

  • Included because it's part of the public record.
  • Excluded because it's impossible for Wikipedia editors to determine the truth or falsity of the accusation and therefore not fair to the accused to include it.
  • It depends. Please explain your include/exclude criteria. patsw (talk) 14:43, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Answering my own question: It's included. See WP:PUBLICFIGURE for the rationale. patsw (talk) 19:34, 28 January 2019 (UTC)


Excluded as the "Accuser" by not seeking any timely legal action is functioning as his/her own witness yet unwilling to testify under oath as to the accusation. That any public figure has to prove actual malice as well as falsity of such "accusations", the fact that they do not sue the accuser proves nothing at all. F'rinstance … person A (who is a total unknown) accuses person B (subject of the BLP) of forcing person A to use heroin at a party, but refuses to actually file police reports under oath. Person B cannot rationally file a defamation case in the US. The "reliable secondary sources" are not stating the accusation is anything more than such, that is, they are not suggesting that it is fact, and the accuser by making no attempt to have a finding of fact be made by competent authorities or competent courts is furnishing no basis for any reliable source to make the accusation into a statement of fact. For examples of the problem look at User:Collect/BLP where an editor appears to make the argument being presented - that a public person by not suing the allegator is admitting the claim to be fact.
It's a real exposé, in the classic sense. If the report were bogus, X would have sued TMZ loooong ago. Excluding it is simply censorship, plain and simple. So he's allowed to have a family and we are not allowed to add that fact to the encyclopedia because he would prefer people not to know about it? Is that your position?
I consider this to be quite directly related to the hypothetical case in the question. Collect (talk) 22:53, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
I think the language of WP:PUBLICFIGURE is plain and requires the inclusion of the accusation: "simply document what these sources say". Are you (or another editor) advocating a change in its wording? patsw (talk) 12:26, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
No. Just pointing out what "editor" means -- we choose what goes into articles, and give due weight while following WP:NPOV which is "non-negotiable". Adding charges which the accuser refuses to present to any fact-finder of any sort is an easy case - if the accuser refuses to let anyone actually examine the charges, and the charges are harmful to the subject, we can, and generally do refuse to give a Wikipedia imprimatur to those unexamined charges. Collect (talk) 15:13, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
It depends My bar for any case like this if it whole state of accusations (without any legal action taken by any party or enforcement agency) is to determine the effect it has on the accused's career or life. Eg take someone like Kevin Spacey where as soon as the first allegations landed, he was kicked off shows, and parts of a movie just about to be released had to be reshot with a new actor. That makes the allegations something to be included. If sources report the allegations but no one acts on them and nothing happens to the person accused at all besides a bit of media attention, we should not include that. And of course, its always best to look though the lens of RECENTISM here - we are not required to immediately include any accusation, and sometimes waiting 3-6-12 months to see how it all filters out will give the right answer to if it should be included or not. --Masem (t) 15:23, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
I will definitely add to what Blueboar added below: the sources are important, particularly for accusations. It's one thing if NYTimes, BBC, etc. are all repeating it, but if its TMZ, entertainment magazines, etc.. I'd then be asking where the original source of information was from and if it has been corroborated. --Masem (t) 17:12, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
  • It depends - Totally agree with Masem. A lot also depends on which sources are covering it: Scandal rags / tabloids / click bate gossip sites? probably not something we should bother with... high end news outlets? probably something we should cover as well. Blueboar (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I think all the it depends answers need to be read as included - as I mentioned in my hypothetical, assume WP:RS is satisfied. patsw (talk) 01:29, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Nope "It depends" means that a blanket "included" is not the !vote. And the requirement that the accusation is "corroborated" is a mile away from "include." The "Spacey example" is inapt as it was his "removal" which was readily corroborated, not the accusations per se. Collect (talk) 14:41, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
On corroborated, to me, I'd use what was shown for Neil deGrasse Tyson: the original accusations were made by a weak RS, but the WaPost made their own inquires on the charged by those accusing Tyson and confirmed that the accusations being made were what the weak RS reported, "corroborating" that. By no means does that corroborate that the events stated in the accusations actually happened, only that a good RS believed there's something valid to report the accusations. Hence why the sourcing question is extremely important. But even then, as I suggest, just because the accusations were corroborated in this fashion doesn't make it worthy to include - the effect on a person's life or career needs to be significant then. --Masem (t) 14:56, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
  • There is an unambiguous right answer to this question, and patsw has already hit upon it. The policy clearly states: "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." I'm more bemused by the spectacle of established editors giving obviously wrong answers here, which are either ignorant of policy or actively contradict it. You guys don't get to make up your own criteria when policy is crystal-clear. If you're going to be active on the noticeboards, then you need to be aware of what policy actually says, and willing to go along with it. MastCell Talk 17:30, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
    • What is "noteworthy, relevant, and well documented" defined as? For example, I would argue my "impact on career" is a measure of relevancy- if there's no impact, then its not relevant to mention, particularly in the long-term. "Noteworthy" implies enduring coverage (akin to notability) , so an accusation that has the media's attention for all of a day is not noteworthy even if its well documented. It's not a black and white definition. --Masem (t) 17:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
      • I would suggest the notability would depend too much on what makes it relevant. I tend to lean away from Wikipedia being a platform to report on peoples supposed misdeeds, but in the case of, for instance Harvey Weinstein the accusations against him led to the collapse of his career and the Me Too movement. Likewise, the career trajectory of Louis CK was significantly impacted by the accusations against him and is relevant, same with Asia Argento. On the other hand we can see how this sort of latitude is mis-applied with much of the nonsense that went on at Julia Salazar - which included far too much shitty gossip BS at one point in time. So I wouldn't want to establish a "general standard" without knowing the specific circumstances. Simonm223 (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

At first, I didn't think of the this case from 2011, which in its time generated a lot of WP:BLP issues: New York v. Strauss-Kahn for a case where the media from gossip source to our reliable sources were keeping the story in flux and keeping the Wiki editors constantly busy. I remember this because I took a photo of the classic "media circus" which appears in the article. The story ended with a dismissal of all charges. To Simonm223, we already have established a policy, WP:PUBLICFIGURE, to cover accusations. patsw (talk) 00:11, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

BLPPRIVACY / NPF

Do we have guidance on whether mention of first marriages/divorces is restricted by, say, BLPPRIVACY or NPF? Saw one removed by an IP, want to verify policy before I add back (the edit also made other changes that definitely need correcting, I'll take care of those). In this instance, so far I've found the subject mention the marriage in the secondary source cited, several interviews, and two published essays. But, it's true that it's not in most of the secondary sources on the subject and I'm mindful of the overarching principle that Wikipedia is in the business of recording well-known information, not making it so. (On the other hand, the IP did not remove other details cited to the same secondary source, like who the subject is dating now, which I tend to think would also need to be removed if we're going to be conservative with this? Previously I removed the current relationship when it was added without a source, but since it was in this profile published six months ago, it seemed ok.) Thanks, all, for any input. Innisfree987 (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

My opinion is that minimal personal information is best unless it is essential for the narrative of the BLP. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2019 (UTC).
Thank Xxanthippe, that's well put. The one secondary source does interpret the elements of notability (i.e. notable writing) in terms of this particular personal information but given it's only one source, I think it's probably best to remove until/if ever it's more widely discussed. I don't like the idea that we might end up seeing that in other secondary sources only because the WP promoted the connection. I'll go ahead and revert for now to the version prior to the incorporation of that source. Innisfree987 (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

"BLPMINOR"

Discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2019 February 16#File:Robert Goldston01.jpg

Children's names and birthdates

Trending away from impartiality with lede's leading sentences

WP:BLPPRIMARY vs. WP:BLPSTYLE on primary sources.

RfC on restructuring the Michael Jackson article with respect to child sexual abuse allegations

RFC on BLPCRIME

Contentious versus controversial

Do no harm

Removal of WP:DOB

Reliable sources

Self-published sources

Steve Kazor DOB

MDY vs. DMY

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