Wikipedia talk:Bureaucrats/Archive 5

Too weak

I was minded to oppose, but I guess it's better than nothing and I appreciate that Xeno has worked hard to frame this in a way that will be acceptable. This just feels too watered-down for me. Hunting through five years of contribs (both on wiki and on a mailing list) is a waste of time and the signalling of availability for tasks is not in my view activity. I also don't think we should count activity as a global renamer - that is now a separate user right, and global renames have their own activity requirements. Would support if amended to require at least one use of bureaucrat permissions (or participating - not including recusal - in a WP:CRATCHAT) within the preceding 5 years. WJBscribe (talk) 11:06, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Let not perfect be the enemy of good; indeed if enough users support with a comment they feel the restrictions should be tighter, then we can tighten them. Or do so later after getting a minimum bulwark established.

Yes, as framed, it's gameable, but my hope is that it will not be gamed. –xeno^talk 11:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The idea that someone doesn't give up user rights they've found no use for in half a decade + is pretty unfathomable to me. I've always been amazed that the community tolerates it. WJBscribe (talk) 11:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I think normalizing them with admin inactivity at three years is a good balance. I know they aren't the same kinds of inactivity, but still, three years is enough. Use it or lose it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Concerning implementation: if an editor's last bureaucratic action is so well-buried that it can't be found by machine or cursory glance, they should point it out upon receipt of a notification.

Regarding renames: enwiki bureaucrats (along with the rest of the global renamers) still have a role to play in coordinating the global renaming and ensuring that local policies and guidelines are still observed. –xeno^talk 14:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment As usual, WJB's input brings helpful clarity. I'd be minded to support something that described activity in those kinds of terms. --Dweller (talk) 14:25, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

  Keep in mind that one could support the proposal as currently framed, and then initiate a subsequent discussion (either consecutively or concurrently) for adjusting the footnote (which is what the whole "bureaucratic activity" line turns on anyway) or timing.
  The footnote was composed after soliciting bureaucrat opinions in the workshop above, so it shouldn't necessarily be seen as my recommendation of the optimal definition of bureaucratic activity.

  5 years was chosen as the RFA process (and other bureaucratic processes) do not change so rapidly that someone who has been away for 36 months would be bewildered upon return. –xeno^talk 15:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: The one concern I have about what WJB suggests (which, as usual, is thought-provoking and well-reasoned) is that promotions and cratchats are relatively infrequent. I know that I have, at times, lurked for months at RfX wanting to promote, but have been scooped time and again. This doesn't mean I am not following or not engaged; it means we have a relatively active 'crat corpus (and that times seem to end when I'm sleeping 8-) ). We can go a year or two without a cratchat. So, it is feasible, especially if the time-frame is condensed, that someone can be alert to all the bureaucratic on-goings and yet not have the opportunity to promote/participate. At least with renames, checking the CHU/S, CHU/U, and the global queue daily will almost certainly afford someone the ability to rename at least once in 3–5 years. If there is a consensus not to consider renaming as part of this activity, then I think we need to provide some alternative method of showing activity that is not an actual promotion/chat participation that allows a greater opportunity for us to show EnWiki that we are still active and engaged as bureaucrats. Thoughts? -- Avi (talk) 15:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

  Indeed there are many bureaucratic acts (even observing or tending to ongoing RFAs) that do not result in logged actions (perhaps not even edits); and as you noted, successful RFAs are often closed rather quickly at the exact time of their conclusion (e.g. all Wikipedia:Bureaucrat removal#Qualifying actions, currently summarized in the existing footnote). –xeno^talk 15:55, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

One consideration: what are we trying to achieve? With the administrator requirements, I believe that we have two purposes in de-adminning inactive users: (1) there is a concern if someone disappears and then comes back that the account may have been compromised (an active user's account can be compromised too, but presumably an active user is more likely to notice it and say something) and (2) someone who goes away for a long time is less likely to keep up-to-date with our policies and practices. Neither of those concerns are the reason that we as a community are considering adding the additional requirement for bureaucrats to maintain their active status. Rather, I can think of two reasons for this change: (1) to discourage badge-collecting - if you're not going to do the job, you don't need the position and (2) so that we can more accurately know how many bureaucrats we really have (unlike with administrators where we could always use more and are never in any danger of having too many, we only really need a certain number of bureaucrats - if we have 20 nominally, but only 2 are really doing stuff, then we need more and this will help us get a better accounting of how many we really have). Personally, my preference would be to drop the number down to 1 year (but perhaps exempt someone who is currently serving as an arbiter, steward, or maybe some other similar positions where they may wish to avoid bureaucrat duties during the time they are in their other role). This would better serve both purposes. --B (talk) 16:05, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Why do you feel that "someone who goes away for a long time is less likely to keep up-to-date with our policies and practices" is a not a potential motivation to implement such a requirement? –xeno^talk 16:08, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

They're already covered by the fact that they will be de-adminned. (The policy doesn't catch the people who check in once per year to maintain their bit, but the new bureaucrat policy will still allow them to do the same thing. It doesn't help with that situation.) --B (talk) 16:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Someone could still edit once in a while (and avoid WP:INACTIVITY permissions withdrawal) but still be away from bureaucratic (or even administrative) activity for five years.

In this case, and with the proposal as framed, only if they make a fresh affirmative edit somewhere indicating they still consider themselves to be up-to-date and capable of bureaucratic activity would they retain the privileges.

And if someone were to merely do this 'check-in' edit but never return to bureaucratic activity, questions could be raised at that point. We don't know yet if this process will result in individuals doing just the bare minimum check-in, allowing the privileges to lapse, requesting their removal, or returning to active bureaucrat duties.

Once the process is in place, modifications can be implemented as usual, by community consensus. There is no requirement at all right now except continuing to make at least some edits, of any nature, once in a while. –xeno^talk 16:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikimedia's standards

According to Wikimedia's policy, The maximum time period of inactivity without community review for holders of advanced administrative rights should be two years and inactivity for this case is defined as zero edits and zero administrative actions on the wiki where the rights are maintained. This policy applies to administrators, bureaucrats, oversight, checkusers and stewards and according to the policy the stewards will contact inactive bureaucrats.
Is this notification not occurring? Is there a good reason to lengthen the inactive term from 2 to 5 years? Has any bureaucrat been inactive for 2-5 years and then returned to a normal level of activity? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:50, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this applies to our project (or any "wikis with an active Arbitration Committee, e.g. English Wikipedia, as such projects can decide about their inactivity removals"); even if it did, it only applies to pure inactivity, which we already cut off after 1 year already. –xeno^talk 17:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply, xeno, I appreciate the explanation. Five years still seems like an awful long time to wait to remove the user rights. That means that if a bureaucrat didn't take any more crat actions after today (and none after), they would keep the right until 2020. I think it might be fairer to current bureaucrats if there were new, active bureaucrats appointed to share the responsibilities rather than having bureaucrats go years without taking any bureaucratic actions. If the bureaucrat qualifying actions include participating in a bureaucrat discussion, renaming an account or declining a request to rename an account, it seems hard to imagine not being able to do one of these activities over two years.

It was interesting to compare policies across projects and see, for example, the Commons standard which is An "inactive admin" is one who has made fewer than 5 admin actions on Commons in the past 6 months. I know this involves bureaucrats, not administrators, but there is such a variety of policies about what constitutes "inactivity". Thanks again. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I think two years is a bit on the low side, especially if the user is otherwise actively editing/administrating; I wrote about why I selected five years above. The timeframe is not set in stone; it can be modified by consensus. –xeno^talk 17:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Xeno, the scathing response referred to the reaction I received to the table when I made it over a year ago. The caustic comments did not come from you. The table wasn't delivered to the bureaucrats with any specific purpose in mind other than purely informational. It was a spin-off from something else I was working on, namely a possible solution to dysysoping involving a new task for them coupled with an incentive for users to run for Bureaucratship. One needs to read the pramble to the table. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:23, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

The one month warning

It is my understanding that a global renamer has to handle renames (simple and usurpations) and that a bureaucrat who is not one cannot rename accounts. If those are off the table, and there is a crat chat every six months or so, that leaves the twenty or so annual successful RFAs and the every-so-often "No consensus" RFAs, along the occasional requests for re-sysop/de-sysop on WP:BN, which has a twenty-four hour waiting period. There is also bot-related work.

If a bureaucrat were to receive the one month warning message via talk page and e-mail, is there enough workload in a given month that the bureaucrat wouldn't have to really focus on beating another bureaucrat to the punch, so to speak, in order to meet the activity requirement within the one month?

If there is so little bureaucrat work required, then perhaps the one month warning should be extended to a five month warning (being that administrators have an activity requirement of one year and a warning of one month, a five month warning would be the same ratio).

On the flip side of the argument, someone could feasibly say, "Well, if the bureaucrat didn't do anything for four years and eleven months and then couldn't find something in the 11th hour, then (s)he should've done something bureaucratic before waiting four years and eleven months." But that could be said for any inactivity duration (e.g., "if the length were X years, then the bureaucrat should have done something before waiting X * 12 - 1 months.")

Long story short, I saw there was discussion regarding the length of the inactivity, and I thought it might be good to also discuss whether the warning period was also of an ideal duration. Useight's Public Sock (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Sure; we could always give more advance warnings. 6, 1mo, 3days, for instance. –xeno^talk 18:51, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

If written into the requirement, this would allow a significant grace period following approval. There is always the 'safe harbour' statement, at least if it remains in the text. –xeno^talk 19:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• • I forget the exact timing for admin desysop for inactivity warnings, but I would suggest simply using the same. No need to reinvent the wheel here. Warning does allow gaming the system, but if someone games, they shouldn't be Crat, which is a different problem with a different solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:55, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Who?

There are apparently 33 editors with this user-right. The 5 years timeframe didn't just fall out of the sky. So who is this intended to affect?

Or to make this a more neutral question: If this were in place now, who would be immediately affected by this? - jc37 06:57, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• Not sure naming names, if any, being obligated to ping them, etc. is all that good of an idea. Either the proposal has merit, or it doesn't. And if they don't see it anyway, they aren't paying attention to the very board they were given bits for. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 07:31, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  This isn't done in a vacuum. These kinds of changes should only be done in response to a problem. When we discussed inactivity before, it was in response to particular situations. And again, 5 years was apparently picked for a reason.

  That aside, transparency should very much be the watchword here. Why is asking who this would affect, not "...all that good of an idea". Good faith is good faith. And if it spurs editors back to helping in the project, so much the better. - jc37 07:47, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  It's being done at the main Bureaucrats page and it was advertised all over the entire Wiki. Any claim that this process lacks transparency is simply unfounded and irresponsible. As for the term 5 years, all you have to do is simply READ the above. If you disagree, by all means, oppose it. Demanding a list when you have the tools to easily do that yourself seems gratuitous. As you pointed out, there are only 33 possible names. This debate is about policy and limits, not individuals, anyway. We have activity limits for admin and crats as it is, this is not much different. Crats already lose their bits if they don't edit for 3 years, same as admin, this is about Crats that don't USE the bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 08:35, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  transparent as in free-flow flow of information. And I did read the above. The subttext too. I'm not sure why it's necessary though. It's not like we only have 33 sets of these tools. Nice thing about virtual sets of tools, we can hand out more. There's more that bureaucrats do than mere tool usage (the link above wasn't a bad list, but still not all encompassing.) And they are respected members of the community. Still not seeing the problem which needs fixing. Are we worried that someone will suddenly do a batch of renames? What exactly are they supposed to be out-of-date with? - jc37 04:46, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  Probably not, they would need separate userright for that now. But what if an editor who had never closed an RFA (or not since the old laissez-faire days) popped in to close one of the recent RFAs (that went to bureaucrat discussion) as successful without a closing rationale? I'm sure drama would ensue. These requirements as written are incredibly easy to fulfill, all you have to do is one single bureaucrat action in 5 years. It's not a big ask. Or one can even say "Oh yes, I'm still here and available for bureaucrat tasks, and I'm up to date". That's it! Invoke safe harbour and hang onto the tools for another 5 years . –xeno^talk 10:35, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  The change is proposed to ensure the community can be confident that individuals who hold the bureaucrat flag remain cognizant of relevant community standards concerning their tasks and available for bureaucrat activity. –xeno^talk 13:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  As I said above, what things have so changed that these respected editors can't be trusted to not blindly wade in? - jc37 04:46, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  We no longer appoint administrators and bureaucrats based on less than 10 users' say-so, for one. One does not have to look far for comments critical of the actions or comments of lightly active bureaucrats. –xeno^talk 10:35, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  So this comes down to "We don't trust them." - ?

  Sounds an awful lot like setting up a sort of "reconfirmation RfA" for bureaucrats. - jc37 11:08, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  I don't see how that follows. Basically this is setting up a poke check. Poke the bureaucrat see if they are alive. If they respond by returning to bureaucrat activity, they keep the tools. If they do not respond, they are withdrawn. Nothing so sinister as reconfirmatons. –xeno^talk 11:41, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  If you don't perform some (un?) specified action, within some specified timeframe, you will be forced to go through another RfB. Sounds exactly like a reconfirmation RfA.

  I don't doubt the sincerity of this Xeno, but "The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men Gang aft agley" after all. - jc37 11:49, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  No one is forced to run for another RfB - only if they want the tools back - and I'm not sure why someone who didn't use the tools in 5 years will suddenly find a need for them if they get withdrawn while they're not paying attention (even after two notes and emails warning them of the impending withdrawal). –xeno^talk 11:54, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  5 years is a straw horse. Even now they're talking of changing it to 3 years, and who knows later? And no one is "forced" to do a reconfirmation RfA either... - jc37 11:58, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  Re: "These kinds of changes should only be done in response to a problem." that's exactly why I cancelled my life insurance, cut the seatbelts out of my car, and refuse to get vaccinated against diphtheria. I will wait until I get sick, get into an auto accident or die, and then I will take those so-called "precautions"... --Guy Macon (talk) 22:47, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  Chuckle : ) -- note that all those are issues which one might consider a problem : ) - jc37 04:46, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  Actually, not a one is a response to a problem, like this RfC, they all anticipate possible future problems. I have never had any problem that my life insurance policy was the solution to. Unless you consider possible future problems, all the money I have spent on it was a total waste. Likewise with most computer security issues (and allowing users to have rights on a server that they don't use is a classic computer security blunder); you try to fix the vulnerability before someone exploits it, not "in response to a problem". --Guy Macon (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I didn't create a table but you could look at Wikipedia:Bureaucrat removal#Current activity and see if any of the bureaucrats who were not active in 2010 have had bureaucrat activity since then to see if this applies to anyone. –xeno^talk 13:25, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• Just over a year ago (Nov 2013) as part of a research for something completely different I was working on at the time, I created this rather rough and ready table. Thinking erroniously that it might be of interest I dropped a link to it on this page. It was taken totally out of context, received in very bad faith, and even resulted in a PA - uncharacteristic for a bureaucrat. It might be of some interest now, but please take it on face value and spare me the vilification this time round - we're all volunteers and some of us are doing our best for Wikipedia. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:34, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  Thank you for your efforts. By looking at edit count alone, though, this table doesn't highlight bureaucrat activity: many of those edits could be bureaucrat activity or none of them. A user could have high edits with no bureaucrat activity or low edits but much bureaucrat activity. –xeno^talk 14:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed - just as in the same way that far from all admin tasks are actually logged as such.The closest one gets to the table being representative is the 'Edits in the last 30 days' column. Also important to understand is the number of edits a single renaming action can generate. The table wasn't created for the purpose currently under discussion, but when taken together with each bureaucrat's monthly edits displayed at X-tools, a rather accurate picture of overall current engagement in Wikipedia emerges. Despite the scathing response I received for making that table, based on the length of tenure of some bureaucrats since their registration, it's perfectly natural that the circumstances of each individual may well have changed by 10, 12, or even 13 years later. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

But tracking bureaucrat activity should be much easier given the limited number of venues, and a table that showed last rename, last bn comment, last (+/-) bot flag, last (+/-) admin, edit to WP:RFBAG, (e.g. representative of Wikipedia:Bureaucrat removal#Qualifying actions) these data would be more useful than just edit count and number of renames, which I do not think are representative of a bureaucrats' engagement with their role. So perhaps the response was not intended to be 'scathing' ,but as to point out the table wasn't really serving the purpose for which it was intended. –xeno^talk 20:05, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

It is startling to see one bureaucrat who seemingly never used the tools and has only about 1600 edits in total. I guess the bar for qualifying has risen substantially. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:35, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

A number of the early bureaucrats were appointed by some combination of mailing list, arbcom or Jimbo, but I don't remember the details. Andrevan@ 00:00, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Successful bureaucratship candidacies#2004: only 2 of the original 17 February 2014 appointees still have the tools, and I don't think Liz is referring to one of those. WJBscribe (talk) 00:05, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Do we trust them or not?

With the moving of the renaming, the bureaucrat user-right is essentially adding or removing admin or bot-related user-rights (and adding bureaucrat user-right)

And so now bureacrats are being treated with a similar distrust that some apply to the RfA process.

admin-for-life, and done by the decision of one individual (setting aside "crat chats").

So the fear is that some older bureaucrat will stumble in blindly and give the tools and responsibilities of admiship (or bots) to someone not deserving? or are we just saying that they won't know how to read consensus?

Heck, if we don't trust them, and this is all that's left, maybe we should just deprecate the bureacrat user-right. Ask stewards to "flip the switch" after an RfA/B is closed or Bag approves a bot.

Of course, good luck with the followup RfC on the who and how of closing RfAs : )

This whole thing feels like an end run around dealing directly with what most people on this page appear to see as a problem - the difficulty - once given - of removing adminship, and the potential havok of the "wrong person" (wrong version?) being granted the tools.

So instead we're going after the fear of not trusting those that the community trusted in the past? Sounds rather wrong to me.

If this is what you really want, how about just follow the practice that's already in place - for contentious RfCs, we often discuss in advance who the closer(s) may be. Would anyone disagree that RfA tends to be contentious?

And during the 7 days of the RfA, people volunteer to close in advance. Maybe ending the "Surprise, so-n-so closed the RfA" will help.

It certainly would be much easier to implement than the above, and definitely less 1984-ish. - jc37 11:40, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

What is Orwellian about implementing some minimum activity standard? –xeno^talk 11:45, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

We already have a minimum activity standard. This is different. And (in my estimation) much more subjective. What is a "crat action"? who decides? And for that matter, Quo vadis?

And will we suddenly have bureaucrats fighting over who gets to close an Rfa so that they can keep the user-right? ("Sorry we're taking your tools because Xeno closed every RfA at one second after 7 days, never letting anyone else, and so forcing everyone to lose bureaucratship.") - jc37 11:55, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Bureaucrat action is described in the footnote. There is enough non-time sensitive work for bureaucrats that someone can easily find something to do at least once every 5 years, or they can invoke safe harbour. I don't want to overwhelm this discussion with my responses. You are free to oppose this proposal if you don't think it's wise or necessary. –xeno^talk 12:02, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Though I understand you tried to broaden it to more than tool use, this comment by Dennis Brown still pretty much applies to this proposal as well. - jc37 17:27, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• The answer is no. I do not trust a bureaucrat with five or even three years of inactivity. I don't think we can assume he/she has kept up with evolving standards, and we know that the bureaucrat doesn't care about Wikipedia needing bureaucrat help. If there is a rare exception, let her/him reapply and make a case for having kept up. And unused user rights are always a security issue. Just because we cannot see any harm in retaining them doesn't meant that an attacker won't figure something out. Being active means you are much more likely to notice if something is being done using your (compromised) account. This is a basic principle of computer security security that pretty much everyone agrees on. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

  We already have an inactivity policy for bureacrats. Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Inactive_bureaucrat_accounts. It is neutral in assessing the editor and their edits. This proposal is neither. - jc37 15:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

  There is a strong consensus that making one edit a year with no requirement for any bureaucrat activity isn't enough. As I said, this is a security issue. Let's fix it now instead of waiting until a compromised inactive account causes widespread disruption. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:00, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

  In the over a decade-and-a-half that Wikipedia's been around, has that ever happened? - jc37 17:12, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

  In the 40 plus years I have been living in Los Angeles, I have never had an earthquake knock down my house. Should I stop paying for earthquake insurance? Vesuvius hasn't erupted since 1944. Want to move to Pompeii? Computer security isn't about reacting after an attack. it's about plugging holes before attackers find them. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:40, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  Not to mention that anything a 'crat can do can be undone fairly easily. Only one thing they can do requires a steward to undo, and there are plenty of them around to fix things, including several regulars here on enwiki. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:25, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  I can think of at least one action that cannot be easily undone: closing a borderline RFA as successful. –xeno^talk 10:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  Well, the action can be easily undone. Whether it would involve a really long discussion and all kinds of drama...that's another question. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

  I know we have large backlogs of admin tasks requiring attention, but is there a backlog of bureaucratic tasks? Do we need to encourage some editors to run for bureaucrat? Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:21, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

  We could probably use more hands. Especially folks who want to actively work to improve RfA from the ground up, maybe try to streamline the process. –xeno^talk 21:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Never used the tools

Is there anyone currently entrusted with the tools who has never used the tools? - jc37 15:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Cprompt from what I know. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:01, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

"may"

Xeno, the current language creates some questions that need to be cleared up before this is added to the Wikipedia:Bureaucrats document. In particular, I am referring to the word may: "their bureaucrat permissions may be removed" and "another bureaucrat may request the removal of permissions". Do you mean shall or will? If you mean may, then what process will be used to decide/determine if the permissions are or are not removed? Seems like some important gray area to clear up. Thoughts? Kingturtle = (talk) 13:58, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Since no one on this project can remove bureaucrat rights, the language is reflective of that. Also no one can force a volunteer as regards 'shall' or 'must'. Regarding implementation, I envisioned something similar to WP:INACTIVE that tabled activity and could be double-checked before any actions were taken or requests to Stewards made. –xeno^talk 16:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

No consesus

I wonder if there is anyone who believes this has consensus.

"What?!" say the vote counters.

Well, read the "votes". Foe example, WTT states "However, I'd suggest 3 years to match adminship". And they're not the only one. Funny thing, this proposal doesn't exist for adminship.

Wait, maybe you think this refers to the "other nom" that the nominator linked to in the nomination above: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Increasing_the_activity_requirement_for_retaining_administrator_rights?

Guess what? It doesn't propose this at all. it suggests raising the number of edits from zero to 10.

No, what WTT and others are rather obviously referring to is that they think this is due to Wikipedia:Administrators#Procedural_removal_for_inactive_administrators. It's why so many want it to be 3 years to match admins.

Problem with that is: a.) this actualproposal isn't just like admins. and that's because b.) the "just like admins" policy already exists for bureaucrats! - Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Inactive_bureaucrat_accounts.

I think people are misled by the frequent use of the word "inactivity" and are presuming it means something that isn't being nominated. I can understand that. As someone who has put forth many community-wide discussions, I've had experience with those who want to comment but for whatever reason haven't taken the time to actually read the nom, much less the discussion.

As far as I can tell, there's consensus to implement the inactivity policy already in place, but there's no consensus to approve this new proposal to start count specific "types" of edits.

I also think it's interesting that very few of those at the Village pump discussion have commented here. making me also wonder at whether this discussion does truly represent the community's wishes. I personally dislike the "walled garden" arguement, but comparing the list of editors from both discussions, there seems to be very little overlap, which I think would make any neutral observer wonder at the very least.

Now I won't be surprised to have IWANTIT to attack me, J'accuse of bad faith and so on. But at the end of the day the text of the page is the text of the page. - jc37 21:44, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Rotation

I have opposed this suggestion as a solution in search of a problem which creates more problems of its own. If, however, it passes, I would strongly urge us bureaucrats either set up a rotation and not have "first-come-first-close," or at least, for those of us who have not "acted" in a while, be allowed to schedule a close, so as to "comply." Personally, I maintain that either we retain the trust of the community or we don't, but if we have to demonstrate it actively, somehow, we should do so in a way that allows all of us to remain in "compliance" will relative ease. Sigh. -- Avi (talk) 17:37, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if we need something formal, but perhaps we should come to an understanding that after closing an RfA as successful, we should allow at least a few more successful RfAs to pass by before stepping in to close again so that we can spread the workload more (with a nod to our most enthusiastic colleague who has closed 77% of the 31 successful RfAs since their appointment ;>). –xeno^talk 18:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)