Wikipedia talk:External links/Archive 24

According from WP:LINKSTOAVOID, links to forums are not allowed, but what if the article that the link belongs to is about its main/mother website itself? Does the guideline still applies? E Wing (talk) 14:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe that if the article is about the forums itself than the link is allowed, but if the article is about a website and the website operates forums then there should be only a link to the website and not to the forums. Themfromspace (talk) 14:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Official sites trump the links to avoid. If the forum is the official site of something, then it should be linked to. I'd imagine this is very extremely rare. 2005 (talk) 21:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:FANSITE redirects here and I am sure I have seen fan sites listed as to be avoided, but not there at present. What changed and when, please? Guy (Help!) 21:45, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Around October and November 2007 there were a large number of edits partly concerning fansite status. At various points there was no statement, at other points two contradictory ones: that one official fansite might be appropriate, but later in the article, under "Links to be avoided": "Fanlistings are generally not informative and should not ordinarily be included." . These repeated edits resulted in the article being protected on October 29. For some time the article made no mention of fansites, but by March 14, fansites were back again in "Links to be avoided" "Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace or Fan sites)..." So it goes. Piano non troppo (talk) 12:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

The redirect was done by TheBlazikenMaster on July 19 and 28, 2007, without giving a reason. . This user has an unusual editing history, including an edit justification: "Getting blocked is not the end of the world so I don't care". . Perhaps significantly their user page reads "I don't understand this place." Now, apparently they have left Wikipedia. Was there a specific WP:FANSITE page? Does someone know how to retrieve it, at least so we can discuss it? Piano non troppo (talk) 16:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

All types of sites are covered by the guideline. 2005 (talk) 21:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Which does not answer the question. I'm sure I remember fan sites being explicitly listed. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

It didn't say that exactly then but it was changed two years ago, three maybe. 2005 (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Most (objectionable) fansites are covered under WP:ELNO #10 and #11, but would it be helpful to include language somewhere about fansites specifically? We don't want people to think they've ended up at the wrong page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Better to just delete the FANSITE shortcut. (I suppose a sentence could be added that this guideline applies to every kind of website that could be external linked, but I don't think a line like that should be followed by a laundry list of the types of sites just because there is a shortcut. That could be a way to do it though.) 2005 (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

About 60 pages link to FANSITE. I doubt that deletion would be supported. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:02, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the FANSITE shortcut should be changed to ELNO, which makes clear what the limiting factors are on wikis, forums, privately owned sites, etc. 2005 (talk) 01:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• I just came here wanting to ask exactly the same question. Has the consensus about fansites changed? If so, we should make it clear which fansites should be linked and which shouldn't. We need some criteria to differentiate acceptable and objectionable fansites. (Personally, I was fine with the old rule, which simply said, fansites are off-limits.) Jayen466 11:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it needs to mention fansites so people know they have come to the right page, and I would prefer it to say they are off-limits, I don't know how we would sort them out otherwise, and clearly (to me at least) in general they are not the sorts of links we allow anywhere else, so we shouldn't be allowing them. dougweller (talk) 11:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that in the absence of an exception that applies specifically to "fansites", the same qualifications and restrictions would apply to fansites as would apply to any other site. I don't understand the confusion? Rray (talk) 00:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

We "sort them out" via this guideline, primarily via WP:ELNO points #10, #11 and #12. It would be silly to make guidelines for every single type of site. It's very clear in differentiating what sort of thing can be linked and what cannot, without trying to force one view on masses of editors. Obviously thousands of regular editors think quality/authority/expert wiki and other fansites have their place, and the guideline offers a fairly high bar for their inclusion. 2005 (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

It's irrelevant what editors think, if they don't also know Wiki guidelines. In my experience, most of the fansites are added by...fans. Many make only a few edits, and leave Wikipedia, never to return.

2005, in regard to your statements, Argumentum ad populum, they aren't "very clear" or "obvious", they seem to part of your "platform" that external links to social sites and other sites should be allowed unless it can be demonstrated in each specific case that they should not be linked. (Discussed at length above in where you use similar argumentation to defend MySpace links, and indeed, maintain that "If an official site is a piece of crap, we don't care".) This is turning the Wiki rules on their heads, allowing unverifiable information, promotion and illegal material to be linked unless it can be argued otherwise. In practice, this would make it easy to add the links, but difficult to remove them.

It isn't "silly" to make guidelines that cover some aspect of every type of site, Wiki does it all the time. It's simple to disallow all fansites, unless there are extenuating circumstances. Those unusual circumstances might be iterated. If they were, then editors adding external links fansites should be required to justify adding a link according to the iterated exceptions for these "special fansites". I think either is unlikely to happen. In lieu of that, the old rule should stand: Fansites are off limits. Piano non troppo (talk) 16:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Also fansites are a particular problem - once a single fansite is added, the operators of every fansite in the world come along and try to add theirs. I think fansites are an open invitation towards the spam event horizon. But it can be fixed by adding to #10, #11 or #12, I think, since they are for the most part just another class of social network / blog / forum / self-published twaddle-o-rama. Guy (Help!) 20:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see fansites as anywhere close to the problem of slim commercial/affiliate sites. And, if a valid fansite is added, that may seem like an "invitation" to add non-valid fansites but it clearly is not. The proper process is to remove invalid links of every kind. The guideline clearly, directly says there is no "open invitation" towards a spamhole. The point is that fansites are covered by the guideline, and fansites like starwars.wikia.com do end up with tons of links, but the guideline covers that by saying it needs lots of editors, etc. The laundry lists in 10,11,12 could have the word fansite added, but the wording needs to reflect the status quo... meaning a fansite run by a recognized expert(s), or a fansite with thousands of editors, could be linked. 2005 (talk) 22:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Piano non troppo, as mentioned elsewhere, please read the guideline before making more argumentive posts of this nature. Illegal material that can never be linked is called out. The guideline says so, so please stop making up these rather absurd strawmen arguments and attributing them to me. And most bizarrely, I hate myspace links. I'd love to see myspace on the block list. But it isn't, and the guideline says what it does, and the mass of editors have the opinions they have. Now again, please read the guideline before continuing along this line. You will see that copyright and other illegal violations are spelled out. 2005 (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

See my answer above in that proposes a solution. You've added excellent effort to this article but there are still built-in contradictions: E.g., In pragmatic terms, it isn't clear what kind of exception an "official site" is. Once you allow "multiple official external links" and allow those links to be MySpace, you are, in effect allowing multiple links to MySpace. Piano non troppo (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

You have complained repeatedly that this guideline doesn't define what counts as an "official" website, but I have never seen any actual problems over that. Everyone seems to figure out pretty easily that (for example) a website maintained by a book's publisher is an "official" website for the book, and that "Susie's Official I Love Harry Potter Website" is not -- unless, of course, Susie's Official I Love Harry Potter Website is the actual subject of the Wikipedia article in question.

And yes, you could legitimately have multiple official MySpace pages. Imagine an artist who does both visual art and music, and maintains two entirely separate MySpace accounts (one for visual art and one for music). This is supposed to be allowed under Wikipedia's policies, even if (horrors!) it means that there are two links to the loathsome MySpace internet domain in an article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Bold edit: I have boldly added fansites to WP:ELNO #11. I chose this one because it is the one that contains the "recognized authority" exception. Does anyone object to redirecting WP:FANSITE to WP:ELNO instead of the whole page? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Very good. It seems that updating the shortcut now is required. 2005 (talk) 06:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

What, exactly, is a fansite? Generally one thinks of them with respect to people, but http://www.nycsubway.org/ is a railfan site about the New York City Subway, and is certainly linked on Wikipedia and has been for a long time. --NE2 10:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

A fansite... is a website created and maintained by a fan(s) or devotee(s) interested in a celebrity, thing, or a particular cultural phenomenon. Fansite. One problem with adding the word is some people have very specific things they think of as a fansite, but the reality is the encyclopedia's defintion is very broad. The subway one certainly is another, but it appears to be a recognized authority (tho I didn't really look hard). 2005 (talk) 10:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It's a gray area WRT being a reliable source, meaning it's probably OK for non-controversial stuff. As for linking to it, it generally "provides a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article", with many current and historic photos of most stations and all subway car models, for example . --NE2 13:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the recent addition unless someone can explain this. --NE2 15:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

And removed. --NE2 14:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

NE2, I don't understand why you removed all mention of fan sites from this guideline. Fansites are generally not allowed, and WP:FANSITE redirects here, so we need to mention fan sites in this guideline. Those sites that have a level of expertise are allowed -- which is why they were mentioned in that specific line of ELNO.

What's your problem with mentioning fan sites in this guideline? (BTW, I'm not convinced that NYCsubway.org really is a fan site as far as Wikipedia is concerned.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

That's the problem. Some people have their own individual definitions of a fan site. We define fan sites as a site established by fans of someone/thing. The subway site is a fan site, but that isn't the point. It's that useless phrase "fan site". It has no purpose in the guideline. We define what sites can be linked. Adding fansites, corporate sites, or anything else is not helpful because the definition is so like pornography - "I know it when I see it" but everybody has different ideas about that. I can see having the word in there where it was, but it is both worse and pure WP:CREEP to call out a type of site when every aspect of the guideline already covers that. Essentially you need to be either an official site or an expert site to be linked, and you can't be a copyright thief. Everything beyond that is more or less just saying the same thing over and over. 2005 (talk) 03:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

So here's a question: This page says:

"1. This guideline does not apply to inline citations, which appear in the "References" or "Notes" section."
"2. External links should not normally be used in the body of an article. Instead, include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end and/or in the appropriate location within an infobox or navbox."

So does #2 actually apply to external links that are being used as inline citations, but which do not appear in the "References" section? (See Chondrosarcoma for an example.) I normally add <ref> tags around such links, but is that actually required under this guideline? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd say yes, but only in the sense that is how to do the markup right. Google[1] just needs ref tags, Google is an inapproriate use of an external link. 2005 (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Google (or the same style for any link) is horrible, prohibited by this guideline (especially when it's being used to point the reader to a website instead of to support factual statements), and unfortunately common in certain articles. I usually see it pointing to disease-specific charities and academic journals. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of the obviously wrong method of formatting links, you should see Occupational health psychology‎. Actually: you shouldn't, because it shouldn't be done that way. I've shoved them all down to the end of the article, because the last time that I deleted the endless link farms, I got reverted. It seems someone really believes that Wikipedia needs a long list of journals, magazines, and universities that (*gasp*) offer college degrees! WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I found the answer. 'embedded links' are specifically allowed at WP:CITE#Embedded_links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

In looking over the section on "Rich media" I was wondering if links such as these should be included. They also do not seem to be "previews" but rather full songs. Soundvisions1 (talk) 13:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

They should be removed and converted to OGG and uploaded here instead, see Wikipedia:Media help (Ogg) & Wikipedia:Creation_and_usage_of_media_files#Audio.--Otterathome (talk) 13:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Lately I have noticed more external linking to people's Twitter account. Normally social networking sites are not to be linked. Should Twitter be an exception to this or should we be cleaning these out of the pages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jroesslein (talk • contribs) 22:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

These should normally not be accepted, unless the Twitter account is really, truly an "official" website for a person. So if Barack Obama has a Twitter account, and this is an official publicity mechanism for him, and it's not easily found at his several other official websites, then yes, you could link to it. But otherwise -- no. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Aspire One User Forum was deleted from Aspire One per WP:ELNO #10 recently. What are the exceptions to WP:ELNO #10? Should some be mentioned? If the biggest resource about the topic is a forum with tens of thousands of posts, should it still be removed? And if so, how does this improve Wikipedia? Habanero-tan (talk) 23:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia aspires to link to expert, reliable information. By their nature, forums will never be that since any anonymous person can post false, unreliable material in individual forum posts. The encyclopedia is improved by only linking to meritable, reliable websites. 2005 (talk) 04:04, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Habanero-tan, if the article were about the forum (Aspire One User Forum), then you could link it. But if the article is about the company, then the user forum is not the company's official website. If the company wants users to find the forum, then they will have to go to the trouble of providing prominent links on their own website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You should mention that *certain* torrent links are frowned upon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smallman12q (talk • contribs) 00:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

We never link to Torrents, ever. DreamGuy (talk) 15:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Should someone be allowed to put their website in the external links section of an article when much of that website is a "content mirror" of certain Wikipedia articles? What is happening is someone is linking to their website, which also features past versions of Wikipedia articles that they accept.

WP:SPS says, "Articles and posts on Wikipedia, or other websites that mirror Wikipedia content, may not be used as sources." But I cannot see in WP:EL where it says a link (versus an inline citation) to be avoided is one to a website which has pages that mirror WP content. Emptymountains (talk) 00:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The first item of ELNO is: "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." That disqualifies all mirrors right there. There is obviously no need to link to a copy of the same article. I suppose a line could be added to clarify that, but the above text and the rest of the guideline is pretty clear that external links need to add something, and copies by definition never do. 2005 (talk) 01:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The main feature of their website is mirroring past versions of articles that they agree with (as they don't agree with the current versions). They do have some webpages on their website that are not mirrors (but new contnet). It's the mixture of the two that makes this no longer a black-or-white issue. Here is the link: Tibetan Buddhism Goes West, which they link to from the Dorje Shugden Controversy article (the link there is called "Western Shugden Society - unlocked"). The first four articles on their website are content mirrors. However, they also have other content on their website, which is what they are linking to. But in effect, they are linking to a website that mirrors (old) Wikipedia content. Emptymountains (talk) 13:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The answer is the same -- no reason to do it. I'd go so far as to say it's strictly forbidden because there never would have a legitimate reason to do it. DreamGuy (talk) 15:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice. I have taken the liberty to remove the website from inline citations and the external links sections of that article and related articles. Emptymountains (talk) 11:20, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Is Findagrave an appropriate link for External links? It seems to be self published and not a reliable source?? Thank you, --Tom 14:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Findagrave is one of the most highly linked fansites in the Wikipedia even though it a very questionable link. I think you are unlikely to get any consensus on an answer to your question. Personally the more obscure the person, where there is little else to link, the better a link it is. For extremely well known people I would never link it. But that's just me. 2005 (talk) 22:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

External links do not have to meet the standards for reliable sources. They only have to meet the standards for external links. Self-published links are accepted: Indeed, nearly every website (including all corporate websites) is self-published. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

They don't have to meet RS standards, but they still have to be fundamentally encyclopedic, and findagrave would almost never be appropriate from any page of it I've ever seen, which is plenty. It's like a facebook for tombstones with people adding whatever they want. I remove them all on site, per previous discussions here affirming that. And if I'm not mistaken we also had a problem in the past with the links being masses added by accounts that had a clear COI, so I'd prefer it be added to our spam blacklist. DreamGuy (talk) 15:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with DreamGuy, they should be removed and should be on our spam blacklist. We don't allow links to open Wikis normally, how is this different? As for self-published, although that doesn't apply here, we don't allow links to personal websites, so to say self-published links are accepted is incorrect. dougweller (talk) 10:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Dougweller, who do you think 'publishes' www.coca-cola.com, if it's not Coca-cola? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see:

• Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#YouTube has permission for most of its copyrighted videos.

Please update this WP:EL section:

• Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking.

This sentence: This is particularly relevant when linking to sites such as YouTube, where due care should be taken to avoid linking to material that violates its creator's copyright.

It should be clarified and rewritten to incorporate the other info. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Even if YouTube has permission for most of its copyrighted videos, it is still appropriate for editors to exercise due care. I therefore don't see any need to change this statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

As someone familiar with the realities of YouTube, I also think we should limit the statement to advising editors to exercise due care. The claim that "YouTube has permission for most of its copyrighted videos" is somewhat naive according to my experience with the site. Moreover, the material you recently added to the guideline appears to encourage people to think that any video upload which can be attributed to a major label is not an infringement, not something that is advisable if we want to avoid linking to copyright violations. – The Parting Glass 10:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, that sounds alright. People should exercise due care. I think the problem was in another section that said "which would happen infrequently". See this section: WP:YOUTUBE. "There is no blanket ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page (which would happen infrequently - see Restrictions on Linking)."

YouTube removes videos all the time that have material from labels it does not have agreements with. So we shouldn't make blanket statements either way about linking or not linking. "Due care" is reasonable and responsible. I removed "which would happen infrequently." --Timeshifter (talk) 05:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

"YouTube removes videos all the time that have material from labels it does not have agreements with." Yes, and stuff doesn't get removed, at least not immediately (and in some cases, not for some years). And then there's the stuff where the uploader knows not to hoast it for too long – pulling it from the channel after it's reached its audience – or those uploads which are the user's own conversions/adaptations from pre-digital formats (Hello, vinyl!), not as likely to register with any library the copyright owner might have access to. And so on.

Look, I'm not coming at this merely as someone who's a bit of a hardass where external links are concerned. I come at this as someone who has used YouTube for several years precisely because it offers a wide selection of "black market" goodies which I otherwise couldn't afford. An anti-discrimination campaign for "underprivileged" sites is a fine thing in principle, but, in practice, it's going to end up as advocacy for those uploaders trying to attract traffic to their channels using illicit means – who aren't, by any means, an insignificant minority who get stamped on within minutes of their first copyright infringement. – The Parting Glass 10:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The existing line says exactly what we want. Editors should use care. 2005 (talk) 11:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The idea that YouTube has permission for most of its content is naive -- the content most people would WANT to link to is quite often without permission. The existence of a bunch of personal videas nobody here would ever try to link to in the first place proves nothing. And, hell, it's not like there's even a reason to link to YouTube most of the time anyway even if it were with permission. We aren't a web directory. DreamGuy (talk) 14:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I would also generally discourage links to rich media/video pages because of the number of readers with dial-up or slow connections. Those of us with supercomputers and high-speed internet access everywhere we go have probably forgotten what it's like to attempt to use an underpowered computer and a slow modem. (I talked to someone a few weeks ago who's running a Macintosh Quadra. Imagine YouTube on a 68040 chip.) Video has its place, but in an effort to provide a reasonably level playing field for all of our readers, it needs to be a small place. Also, clips that are essentially entertainment e.g., ("Highlights from my favorite TV show") are unacceptable. I think that "discouraged, but definitely not banned" is the right balance for Wikipedia articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Comment. Several of the people commenting here do little but remove external links from articles. So they do not represent the majority of Wikipedia editors. Spam fighters camp out here at WP:EL. I could name names but anyone can tell by going to their user pages. Their opinion is valuable too, but their numbers and loudness here are not a basis for consensus. They are the ones continually adding back "which would happen infrequently" as a way to make a form of almost blanket prohibition of linking to YouTube videos. This goes against the reasonable standard of "due care." There are many totally legal YouTube videos. For example; there are many official YouTube channels for the major labels. The videos on those channels are without question totally legal. Many of the popular videos elsewhere on YouTube with tens of thousands of views are also legal. The questionable videos are the ones with few views that YouTube may not have screened yet with its video ID tools. There is a vast middle ground too that requires due care. For more info on Google/YouTube's video ID tools see Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#YouTube has permission for most of its copyrighted videos. The Internet Archive (Wayback Machine) is another vast archive. It also has to frequently remove sites that owners don't want archived. We allow linking to the Internet Archive. See Wikipedia:Using the Wayback Machine. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The Internet Way Back Machine is used for references, not external links. This guideline doesn't care what sources are used to support information in articles. If you can write an entire article simply by <ref>ing YouTube articles, then you'll get no objections based on this guideline. This guideline really only cares about what is (or should be) listed under ==External links==. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:08, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Whatever your opinion of the utility of the Internet Archive or YouTube as an external link we shouldn't be adding "which would happen infrequently" to the statement "There is no blanket ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page." See this diff: . --Timeshifter (talk) 15:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

• Keep wording as is. We must be reasonable in all edits we make, and this wording is eminently reasonable. A blanket prohibition would be unhelpful and highly counterproductive to our encyclopedia. Our editors--that is, editors who actually create and add to articles rather than primarily removing or attempting to remove content or sources--edit with judiciousness and discernment, and are our strongest asset. Let them do their work. Badagnani (talk) 04:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Legality of the link is not the only reason why they are (or were) often inappropriate. We are not a linkfarm is another one, and linking to media for which special software may be needed, the several occasions of users having a coi with adding the youtube movies, that external links should add to documents, prefereably used as a reference and to draw content from, or which are inaccessible for slow internet connections are some of the others. I do however concur that a sentence as 'which happens infrequently' is a bit overdone (though probably true!). Taking good care (and quite some of it) with links to youtube (and all other servers with audio/video media) is still in order, and that should be enough. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

This entry under "links normally to be avoided" bothers me:

1. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content, unless the site itself is the subject of the article, or the link is a convenience link to a citation. See below.

This would exclude links to many of the top academic journals! It needs to be qualified or deleted. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

As noted, it doesn't include citations that have printed media, but paid online archives. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Short Brigade Harvester Boris, are you fully aware that this rule applies only to things linked under ==External links==, and not at all to any sort of <ref>erence? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I am, though in my experience the distinction is very often not recognized. It's simply not clear to me why relevant and high-quality information should be excluded solely because it requires payment. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

For the simple reason that it will be inaccessible to the vast majority of our readers. The external links section should only be used sparingly, and for resources that a majority of our readership will be able to access. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed journals also are inaccessible to the vast majority of our readers, but no one sane would suggest we prohibit them from being used as references. And yes, I understand the difference between links and refs -- I guess the basic problem is I don't see why different rules should apply to links as opposed to references, but I'll let the matter drop. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:14, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Most peer reviewed journals can be found in local and university libraries, or copies of articles from them requested from such sources, with little to no cost. So they are not as inaccessible as a pay only site. The main thing is the citations provide both the info for the offline copy, with a convenience link for those who do feel like paying. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed journals are listed in the refs for the purpose of complying with WP:Verifiability. In that situation, including a "convenience link" (for the convenience of the few people with access to it) is no worse for the reader without access than just listing the full citation without providing the link. The alternative here is to limit article content to only those statements that can be supported by material that is freely available online, which proposal would likely be greeted with hoots of derision.

The purpose of the ==External links== section is to provide the reader with other things to read. Think of it like saying to the reader, "If you enjoyed this article, you might like to read..." Telling them to go read something that 95% of them can't read is silly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

In November last year an editor approached New Zealand Wikipedians at Wikipedia:New_Zealand_Wikipedians'_notice_board/Archive_10#NZ_On_Screen_as_a_source the NZ-related noticeboard to ask whether links to the website NZ On Screen were permitted to be added to appropriate articles. There wasn't much discussion, but it was agreed that these links were valuable. A precedent was set by a representative from Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand asking for permission to post links to that government-funded encyclopedia. Those links also fell afoul of anti-spam patrollers: see User talk:Tearanz, and the user appears to have stopped editing here.

There are very few authoritative and non-commercial sources on New Zealand actors and the New Zealand television and film industries. NZ On Screen is possibly the only one.

In at least some cases, the editor who has added links to NZ On Screen has also added material to the articles. See Robyn Malcolm for an example. To make it clear that the links have been added with permission, they have added a link to the noticeboard discussion with each edit (although the noticeboard has been archived since).

User:Themfromspace has removed the links as linkspam and COI, apparently not being aware until late in the editing session about the noticeboard discussion.

I believe that we should encourage representatives of such sites (ie government-funded, non-commercial, authoritative sites) to approach the relevant WikiProject to gain approval for such links, and when permission is given, the links should not be reverted without a new consensus being formed.-gadfium 06:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I removed the links per the guidelines at WP:EL. All of the information from the links can be incorporated into their respective articles, and the link can (and should) be used as a reference. A link like this doesn't belong in the "external links" section of an article. Remember, Wikipedia isn't a linkfarm, nor should it be used as a vehicle for advertising. Only official sites should be linked to, and those whose information is unable to be posted on Wikipedia due to copyright concerns. Themfromspace (talk) 06:22, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Your response confuses me a little. I would have understood (but not agreed) if you were removing them on the ground of COI. NZ on Screen does contain copyrighted material, such as video clips from shows aired on television. There are also interviews with people in the industry, some of whom have Wikipedia articles. The text on the site is CC-BY-NC (at least the sample bio I looked at is) but the clips and photos are copyrighted to a range of sources, such as South Pacific Pictures. I'm using and as my examples. The video clips use Macromedia Flash - if you aggressively block such content in your web browser, as I do, you may need to allow it for a few minutes to evaluate the site. This would appear to be an example of a site which is an appropriate external link.-gadfium 08:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

This is a non-commercial website providing information of encyclopedic value that can't be included in WP articles (e.g., copyright multimedia content). All the hosted copyright media is cleared for use by the copyright holders (see rights clearance notice). Based on my understanding of the letter and spirit of WP:EL, linking to this site from an external links section is fine on a case-by-case basis. --Muchness (talk) 09:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There's nothing wrong with those links (used in the right context). And the person who originally added them dealt with the possible COI openly and straightforwardly, so I see no problem there. -- Avenue (talk) 14:22, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... Yes, I see your point. I also have flash blocked on my web browser and all I see from that site is the biography, which was what I was referring to when I mentioned that the site can be implemented into the articles and cited. I'll have to try switching to another browser to see what I'm unable to see now. I'll repost here when I do so, as it appears that I was probably mistaken in thinking there wasn't any valuable copyrighted information on that site. Themfromspace (talk) 20:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

There is certainly copyrighted material on NZ On Screen that cannot be shared or reposted on Wikipedia. Where it has seemed appropriate or relevant the material from the biographies and backgrounds has been integrated with existing content on Wikipedia entries. However I would say that the value from the external links directly to NZ On Screen is in the extended material a user will find there - video clips and photographs in particular.

If there is a consensus that the links are OK, what is the process for reinstating them? -- filmtvfan (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC).

If we reach consensus here, one of us will reinstate the links, and I'll give you a new edit summary to use pointing to this more detailed discussion for the future.-gadfium 01:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Noting, I hope, that this discussion will be archived before long, and thus the pointers will break. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:26, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Re above. Now that I can view the site, I see that I was missing most of what was on it due to my lack of flash. The whole sideways scrollbar is unavailable to those without flash. Any issues with this site is now conferred to WP:ELNO #7&8. I for one am willing to agree that the link can stay on this site and I apologize for taking the links down without examining most of the content. Themfromspace (talk) 02:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I have restored the links. For any further placement of such links, I suggest the edit summary contain "See " (which is the version of this page just before I added this comment), and the link text include "(requires Adobe Flash))".-gadfium 03:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Another option is to mark this discussion as {{resolved}}, archive it to Wikipedia talk:External links/Archive 24#NZ on Screen, and link to the stable archive page from the edit summary. This may be preferable as iirc URLs don't convert to clickable links in edit summaries (correct me if I'm wrong). --Muchness (talk) 06:04, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

There are about 300 links to Hulu right now . There is also a {{Hulu}} template for making such links. Yet they can only be accessed from the US. According to this guideline, links to sites "that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that only work with a specific browser" should "normally" be avoided. This raises the question whether Wikipedia should have all these links to this site (and others like it), if they are inaccessible to what may be a majority of the readers. Should(n't) this guideline take a stronger stance with regard to this issue? Should these links perhaps even be (automatically) removed? Or appended with something like "(US only)"? – Chip Zero 17:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I brought this issue up few months ago, but was unable to gain consensus on it. I still believe that these links should be removed since they do not fulfill WP:EL. Appending them with US only tag serves only to fuel the biased view editors are accused of taking many times. ^LeaveSleaves 18:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I figured this would have come up before, but wasn't able to find it using Google. The guideline currently takes a stronger stance w.r.t. registration sites, where you can only view the content if you're registered or have a subscription. It seems that non-www sites like Hulu take this even a step further and disallow large parts of the world to view it. Being the closest thing to an international version of Wikipedia, I would say that these links have no place on Wikipedia EN. – Chip Zero 19:29, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a major problem with using Hulu for external links. I would use it more sparingly for reference links though. We frequently link to print versions of library books as references. We have to trust the user who created the reference, and the occasional user who checks out the info in the library book. It is nice when we have a convenience link to the full text via Google Books, Amazon Books, etc.. But not all books have their full text online somewhere. Many more people have access to Hulu compared to those with access to many print-only books found only in certain libraries. So Hulu is a tolerable reference link for some things.

Hulu is fine for English Wikipedia external links in my opinion. External links are additional info. It is not essential that everybody worldwide have access to it. Many external links are inaccessible to many people in other parts of the world anyway due to international distances, slow connections, bandwidth bottlenecks, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

We are not a web directory, we ar an encyclopedia. Videos are not "additional info" they are entertainment. We don't link to sites to play games, watch TV, see trailers, and so forth. DreamGuy (talk) 15:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

What you are saying is not logical. There are many articles on Wikipedia about entertainers, TV shows, and games. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Having articles on topics doesn't mean we provide links for people to go enjoy them as entertainment. WP:EL is very clear on these things. The links have to have an encyclopedic purpose, not just to give links to people. Read our rules and all your confusiong should go away. DreamGuy (talk) 16:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Hula should not be placed in external links, I'd nominate that template for deletion, and I cannot imagine why we would ever use it for a reference. - brenneman 14:26, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

There's absolutely no encyclopedic reason to link to Hulu on any article except the one about Hulu itself (per the links to home page criteria). I can't believe there is anyone unclear on the concept. There's no encyclopedic value to it whatsoever. It is and always has been strictly forbidden by any reading of our rules on links. DreamGuy (talk) 15:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you make this stuff up as you go along? "I can't believe there is anyone unclear on the concept. There's no encyclopedic value to it whatsoever." Please ease up on the hyperbole. See the comment below from ViperSnake. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with ViperSnake, and would respectfully disagree with you, but it's clear you are not trying to be respectful of other people or Wikipedia rules in general. DreamGuy (talk) 16:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, while it could be considered a part of the "An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work" rule, the fact that its restricted to the US makes it not not allowed. ViperSnake151 16:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Until now that was not true. But someone just changed the guideline without consensus. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Hulu.com is not normally acceptable because of WP:ELNO #7: It's not okay to say provide links that are known to be worthless to anyone in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, Australia, etc. I have expanded the description of ELNO #7 to clarify that "inaccessible to a substantial number of users" is not limited to solely software-based issues. The point is the 'inaccessibility to a substantial number of users' part, not the 'spank the idiot web programmer' part. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

You don't have consensus for this. And WP:EL is a guideline not a policy. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't claim that EL is a policy, and it appears that we do have a basic level of consensus. The opposition of a single editor (you), and you haven't actually advanced a single logical reason for including temporary links that are only functional for a fraction of our users. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I should point out that Hulu is not a permanent repository for these videos. The TV episodes are removed from the site after a certain period of time. This somehow also fails it under WP:ELNO #16. ^LeaveSleaves 19:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

This seems like the only legitimate reason I have heard so far to limit the use of Hulu as an external link. But it depends on how long Hulu keeps stuff up. Many web pages outside Hulu disappear too. That is why we end up linking to archived stuff at the Internet Archive. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep hulu links out. This should be a no-brainer. The consensus here is very clear and this discussion is specifically about WP:EL after all. --Ronz (talk) 15:49, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Sigh, indeed. Links to video sites should be kept to a real minimum, as they are generally failing parts of this guideline. If Hulu.com is only accessible in the US, and not outside of that, then that fails this guideline completely, and they should even actively be removed from external links sections. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 16:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I tested, it does indeed not work here in the UK. I can not see the movie. The link itself even does not work properly, it redirects to the main page, and when I do get to the movie, I get a message that I can't see it. Outside of that question, I wonder if the video's I tried would actually add to the page (trailers? Can't they link to the movie website itself?). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 16:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The most common use of Hulu as an external link at the moment is on television related articles. Hulu includes legitimate copyrighted US TV episodes soon after their first airing. An argument I have heard in these cases is that being a link that provides primary source (the episode itself) and in some cases is probably unique for such videos, the link is considered valid. At no point however does it answer the concerns raised against it. ^LeaveSleaves 17:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Remark: {{hulu}} was nominated for deletion a couple of days ago, see Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2009_February_4#Template:Hulu. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 20:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

If we have a statement like "Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall", and that event is reported by 100 news agencies, is it appropriate to list as EL's every one of them? I think its obviously redundant and clutters the article. Let's say only 3 sources report the event. Shouldn't that also be considered redundant?--Fasttimes68 (talk) 19:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

As already noted at WP:NOT, the EL guidelines do not generally apply to references. If you want to argue that having multiple references is redundant, then argue it at WP:CITE or WP:RS, however keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing wrong with including 2-3 cites on a sentence, particularly if its material that is repeatedly challenged or may be contentious or if its a BLP article. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The problem with item 4 under the What Should be Linked section, which reads "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews" should probably be removed or modified, as it makes no mention of the quality of the link in question. As such, it is confusing to people trying to understand what is and is not an acceptable link. The main problem seems that this item makes no mention as to the reliability or respectability of the reviews in question. If I run a personal website, and do reviews of movies on it, but I have no widespread acceptance in mainstream media as a reliable or respected movie critic, shouldn't I have the right to add a link to my website? We need to fix this item so it is clear what specific sorts of links are allowable and which ones are not; or simply remove the statement entirely as too vague to be useful. Anyone out there have any ideas on how to handle this? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

yes, normally we would use a reference to such a site if it were reliable, and I don;t see the point of linking to it if it isn't. DGG (talk) 05:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed with the two comments above. Reading this line broadly I think that less-well-respected sites might not be considered "relevant" to the article, while a link to, say, a review by Roger Ebert would be considered more "relevant" as he's a famous and respected critic. Themfromspace (talk) 05:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

That line sums up pretty well a class of external links that are useful - it may simply not offer enough guidance. If a site contains only poor quality information, the problem isn't necessarily reliability because reliability in the strict sense (sources known for editorial oversight, fact checking, accountability, neutrality) is not always necessary. The information may be poor quality for a variety of other reasons. It may be stale, not comprehensive, not the best out there, not very useful, not relevant, redundant, or spammy. In the case of even good film reviews, choosing one over the many hundreds of others puts Wikipedia in the position of playing favorites. Wikidemon (talk) 19:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I have long believed that this statement should be demoted to WP:ELMAYBE, especially since it is largely redundant with an item there. It is widely misunderstood; for example, I've had people tell me that this item overrides the ban on links to internet chat boards. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I support this modification just to make thigns even more clear to people DreamGuy (talk) 15:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Based on these comments, I have removed the line. There are other lines in ELYES and ELMAYBE which clearly are duplicate with this line, and rather than clarify, this line was only obfuscating the issue. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I read over everything after you made this change, and I think that wholesale removal was the right call. The two examples (interviews and reviews) were already mentioned. The same general point is made at WP:ELMAYBE #4. I think this is a good decision. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Good move with the removal! I have never been able to understand what that sentance was supposed to mean anyway. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

This Youtube video doesn't contain any copyright information that anyone has yet found. It's being discussed at Talk:Bates_method#Meir_Schneider, where editors suggest that we don't know if it's a copyright violation, so it's fine to link. I'm not so sure. --Ronz (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

As has been pointed out in the discussion, the Youtube account hosting the news broadcast in question is verifiably connected to the individual featured therein. So the chances that permission was granted are much higher than if it had just been posted by some random person. PSWG1920 (talk) 18:17, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to keep the links out when the copyright is in doubt. Wish others would voice their opinions. --Ronz (talk) 00:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

In this type of situation, excluding the link due to copyright concerns I believe amounts to an assumption of bad faith. The news broadcast is not posted by some random person. It is hosted on an account verifiably connected to the individual featured therein. If you're concerned why don't you contact Channel 2 in Israel and let them know about the video in case they don't already. PSWG1920 (talk) 01:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

If it contains no copyright information, it should not be used unless it is on an official channel by someone affiliated with the video (i.e. vested by YouTube itself to have the right to post the videos). It has nothing to with an "assumption of bad faith" but the reality most videos on YouTube that are not personal videos are copyright violations. That is reality. That said, it is rare that a YouTube video should be used as a source anyway. If its a legitimate broadcast, cite the real broadcast, not its YouTube video which may or may not be legal. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

It was being used as an External link, not a reference. It is on an account verifiably connected to the individual featured in the news broadcast (see the discussion at Talk:Bates method regarding that). So it's not as if it were just a random person who posted it. With that being the case I believe this is largely a matter of assuming good faith or lack thereof. PSWG1920 (talk) 02:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

That's even easier, it is not an appropriate EL even if it is legit. I see no added value to that article at all that makes it so important to meet EL guidelines. It doesn't add substantial "meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article" as any related info can and should be incorporated into the article itself. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. It would be very difficult to follow NPOV while referencing that broadcast in-text. We'd end up breaching Undue weight, Impartial tone, or both (following both of those at the same time has been an ongoing problem with that article.) PSWG1920 (talk) 03:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello, we generally don't link to YouTube anyway, per our rules (see the main page that this talk page is supposed to be discussing). And, generally speaking, anything on YouTube from SHOULD be considered a copyright violation unless we have proof to the contrary, based upon how extensive the copyright problems there are. It'd be different if the video were on some official site, as then we'd have a good faith reason to think it was being used following proper copyright laws... but even there we basically don't link to videos anyway. DreamGuy (talk) 16:44, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

It is on an account verifiably connected to the official site of the individual featured in the news broadcast! See the discussion linked above. PSWG1920 (talk) 16:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Link to the official site then. Problem solved. DreamGuy (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You are aware, I hope, that newscasts are copyrighted material? Just because the subject appeared in the broadcast, doesn't make a video of that broadcast cease to be a copyright violation. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

--Orange Mike | Talk 17:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that. My argument was that he probably got permission to use it, at least the chances of that are much, much higher than if it had appeared on some random account. PSWG1920 (talk) 17:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I check the archives, but can't find where the official policy was decided. There is no specific number of editors, or required age of a wiki. I'd like to point out that some editors create many quality articles, while a wiki with many times more editors, can produce something quite inferior. I don't see as how the number of editors or the age of the wiki is relevant at all. I suggest the rule simply be to judge it on its content, just as you would any other external link, and not treat it differently. If there is a significant amount of valid information there, why not link to it? There was formerly a policy that said if there was too much information to fit on a wikipedia article, move it to side pages, or an external wiki. That has, alas, been removed. If people can't find all the information they want on the wikipedia, they should be given an external link to where more information can be found. Dream Focus (talk) 15:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that we abandon our policy on self-published sources? And you can't use Wikipedia as a source, are you suggesting we should allos it to be used as a source and if not, why does it differ in principle from an external Wiki?dougweller (talk) 15:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

What policy on self published sources? You allow Ain't It Cool to be used as a reference, and linked to in many articles. It was a guy publishing his opinions, and later allowing a few friends to join him. He has never been published anywhere but his own website, by himself. And I suggest that if the articles are of quality level sufficient to be included on the main wikipedia, if not for the size factor, that you be able to link to it for those wishing more information. It helps the people get what they want, which is knowledge, not constantly changing policies most people don't even know about, and only a small number ever decide upon. I honestly can't take any policy seriously, which did not have a general election by all wikipedia users. Millions of people use the wikipedia, but its fate is decided entirely upon whatever random bunch are around to decide things, it always a rather small number. Remember, the wikipedia exist to provide information, not to strangle people with regulations. Dream Focus (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Wait: the rule on self-published sources is about ==References==.

This page is about ==External links==.

Is this question about using an open wiki for <ref>erences, or about listing it in the external links section? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

External links section. Of course you can't use it as a resource, since anyone can add to it. Dream Focus (talk) 21:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Good point, sorry. Point still holds as you say. Anyone can add to it. dougweller (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Good point. If no one objects, I'll change it then. How many people think its a good idea to allow external links to wikis, that have valid content? Dream Focus (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Errr, no. The purpose of the external links section is to link sparingly to external resources which contain content which can't be included here for some good reason. Free content sources like external wikis typically aren't this kind of resource; material they contain which can't be added to Wikipedia typically isn't useful to an encyclopedia (for instance, huge amounts of unverified fancruft). As such, the resource itself isn't valuable enough to warrant inclusion. (For what it's worth, this issue has had a lot of discussion in the past; it doesn't need a "vote" because voting is evil. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

• It reads under things to be included "#Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons." If the wiki has that, it should be included. Dream Focus (talk) 22:25, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
  • As Thumperward points out, external links are to be used sparingly, if at all; and (with the sole exception of a link to the subject's own official website) generally should only link to sites which would meet our standards of reliable sources: "neutral and accurate ". That pretty much knocks out most of the wikis you are trying to include. This is long-standing consensus, and is not to be changed lightly. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Doctor Who has a link to its wiki. See how well done it is? http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page There are a lot of nice ones with relevant content. You ignore anything that is crap. Notice it says substantial content. The previous wording was that content didn't matter, it just needing to be around a long time with a lot of editors, and that to cause problems. Dream Focus (talk) 22:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Wikis and everything else should not just be included automatically. But thousands of pages of bad quality content does not merit an external link. The wiki language has been there for a very long time, and the idea that external links have to be meritable and valuable has widespread consensus. Additionally, wikis are often fansites and/or very unstable. Both of these aspects require additional judgment. Just because a wiki, or anything else, is large or popular is no reason to link to it. Wikis are just above forums on the the totem pole because they allow anyone to write anything. There is no merit in that. Merit must be demonstrated another way. When it has many contributors, and a history of reliability and stability, it can be added, but it is a high bar, just like we have a high bar for all sites. 2005 (talk) 22:40, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
      • That's an instance of the futile WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument; just because something is in one article, doesn't mean it belongs in another article. Indeed, at your instigation, I've tagged the Dr. Who article as being a pathetic example of a linkfarm in need of slashing. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
        • • I see they reverted your attempts at tagging and deleting over at the Doctor Who page. That is how the wikipedia works. No matter what rules exist, it all comes down to how many active editors an article has, around to defend it. Thus Doctor Who has a page dedicated to just the items found it, one for every monster, even those appearing in just one episode and never seen again, and several pages on the wikipedia. Star Trek and other popular series are the same way. Meanwhile the Gantz Equipment page got deleted, along with such pages for other series that had less editors around to protect them. Editing a page in any way, or deleting it entirely, is done at the whim of the majority of people there at the time, not by any set rules at all. Dream Focus (talk) 05:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Muppets link to its wiki http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Muppet_Wiki but Naruto doesn't link to its, despite it having a substantial number of editors, articles, and having been around for years now. Does Naruto not fit the current guidelines? If the wiki fits the description of the "Sites to be included" I quoted above, shouldn't it be linked to then? No sense holding it to any standard different than what other sites have. Dream Focus (talk) 22:39, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course their is sense to it. If an article appears in the New York Times today, it will be the same tomorrow. Something in a wiki may be totally different tomorrow. Additionally fan/personal/wiki sites must demonstrate that they do have expertise in a field, whereas we don't need to judge that every single time with CNN or the Washington Post. It seems you misunderstand sites to be included. Just because 50 sites meets the criteria for an article, doesn't mean they all should be included. Those are simply the sites that can be included. We aren't a link farm. We have a guideline that emphasizes concepts in linking. Open wikis and other personal or fansites simply need to get over the bar. Individual sites usually accomplish this by the owner being an aknowledged expert; wikis need to similarly achieve that by having many contributors and a history of reliability. 2005 (talk) 22:46, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I see that Barek has decided to go to the two articles I had link to wiki in, Gantz and Voltron and delete those links. When it was determined that the Voltron article was too long, I copied over all the information, from when it was longest and most detailed, over to a the Voltron wiki I created for that purpose. Almost nothing has changed in it since then. It was fine when it was on the wikipedia, for years, then someone decided it was too long, and deleted the majority of it. Just seems kind of hypocritical really. If its good enough for the wikipedia, its good enough for a wiki. The only reason it was erased, was because of length. Most articles on the wikipedia itself don't meet what most considered to be a decent quality level. Why should the wikia be held by different standards? The Gantz article was the same way. After years of being around, dozens of editors, and no one having a problem with it, a deletist who has never read the series, decided it was too long, as like she does with every series she comes across, erased the majority of it. Dream Focus (talk) 23:17, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Any content on another wiki is no concern here, but obviously a wiki created a day ago will never be worth an external link, just like any site anywhere created a day ago would not be worthy of an external link, except for an official site. 2005 (talk) 02:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Dream Focus, I think you're missing the point. One of the reasons that we don't link to open wikis with a poor track record or limited editor base because they're trivially vandalized. When we link to any webpage, we need to be confident that the relevant material will actually be available for the reader. Directing users to a page that now readds "Th|5 lame w|k| has been pwnd" makes us look bad. If you have a wiki with lots of editors around to keep it cleaned up and a track record of them doing that, then #12 "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors" does not prohibit the link.

You still have to justify the link (meaning that it has to make sense under WP:NOT#LINKS and other standards: every single URL must do that), but it is permitted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Whenever someone makes an edit at the Gantz wiki or the Voltron wiki I get an email and check into it. I see far more vandalism on the wikipedia each day, than I've ever seen on any other wiki. I've reverted several vandals from the wikipedia's crayfish page alone. A link from a wikipedia article to another wikipedia article, is more likely to be vandalized than an active external wiki. And if something is vandalized, it will be reverted. The word "substantial" doesn't have to be any set number then? If you have enough people around to keep it running smooth, then should be considered substantial enough to meet that requirement? And I do believe that those interested in those topics, would find those wikis to be of great interest to them. The links to both were recently deleted, after someone read my posts on this page about their existence. Dream Focus (talk) 03:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

We don't need hard limits because we're not robots. There is more than enough manpower available to evaluate these on a link-by-link, article-by-article basis. If you want the links re-added, you should argue for their inclusion on the relevant article talk pages. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:44, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

FYI, Dream Focus is now claiming that your two remarks above means that adding a Gantz wikia link is perfectly acceptable because he gets emails about edits on Gantz wiki and reverts vandalism on it, and that you basically told him that EL is invalid, because as long as there is at least one person undoing vandalism, the link is valid! -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I can only assume that Dream Focus's comment is some form of elaborate joke. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Not failing ELNO #12 doesn't give any website a free pass on all the other rules. For example, a wiki with only a few editors is essentially a personal website, which fails ELNO #11. If it's being added by a person significantly involved in the other site, then it fails WP:COI. If the goal is to attract more readers and editors to the wikia site, then it fails WP:ELNO #4. And so forth.

Any editor arguing for inclusion (of any external link) should be able to explain how it helps the general reader (who is, by the way, not a fan) understand the subject and how it advances Wikipedia's goals (see WP:NOT as well as the text at the top of WP:EL). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikis should almost never be linked to, for multiple reasons, as mentioned by WhatamIdoing above. Probably 99% of the links to wikis already on Wikipedia shouldn't be there by our standards on links. On top of that, our standards on WP:COI, etc. even more dramatically means that those links should not be there. Some guy who wants to link to his own site can't come here and then decide he wants to change WP:EL itself if he doesn't get his way. DreamGuy (talk) 16:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but i have to agree with Dream Focus, wiki links should be checked out before they are auto deleted, to determine if they comply with the exceptions in the guideline. Deleting links just because they are wikis, without first checking them seems flawed to me.--Legeres (talk) 18:50, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

No, the WP:BURDEN is on the person wishing to include material to show that it meets our standards. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Links to wikis (or anything else) must be checked before they're added. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

how would one go about proving that a wiki fits within the exceptions of the guidelines? Not all wikis are fancraft, some have reliable info that is moderated for falsehoods and other things that don't belong.--Legeres (talk) 07:54, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The same way you resolve any dispute. You vet the link and think it's okay. You add it. Someone else disagrees and removes it. You post to the article's talk page exactly why and how you think it complies with this guideline. For example, you say that the relevant rule seems to be "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors" -- but this isn't an open wiki, or it it's been active for a decade and has a thousand active editors, or whatever the actual facts are. Everyone double-checks the facts and compares the facts to the guideline. You have consensus when everyone more or less agrees whether this link does, or doesn't, violate the community's guideline. It's not usually very complicated. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay that makes sense, thank you. On to the next question what qualifies as enough active editors? and enough time?(average wise)--Legeres (talk) 12:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No hard rules have been established. I dare say that it veries with the size of the wiki, the degree of specialisation and the wider popularity of the subject. It is true that presently very few established wikis are considered to be uncontroversial in general, even ones like Memory Alpha which are at the top end of all three (long established, high user base, reputation for quality). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

If we were able to provide reliable third party references saying that the wiki is stable and accurate as well as having the editor numbers to keep it that way, would that work in qualifying for the external link area? Or would it still be deleted on sight?--Legeres (talk) 13:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I just started a discussion on the Village Pump about an external links noticeboard and I'm inviting feedback from those of you here that are involved with external links on Wikipedia. Themfromspace (talk) 14:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

A change banning links to interviews with the subject of the article was inserted and reverted (pending discussion), so let's discuss.

Speaking for myself, I don't know why such an interview would be a problem. For highly-publicized subjects, there would probably be too many such links to make this a reasonable choice; but there would probably be pages you could find with lots of links to interviews, etc. However, for less famous article subjects, I think a long interview would be a fine thing to link to. So I'm curious, what's the rationale for banning them? Msalt (talk) 20:03, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the statement added was insisting of incorporation of information from such interviews into the article and use of such external links as references wherever possible rather than banning such links. It is a valid expectation that wherever possible the interviews of individuals are included in the article itself to avoid an extra external link. However, insisting on specific use of such links as references only thereby excluding them from external links section seems unnecessary. ^LeaveSleaves 20:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I see no reason for a blanket ban. For certain people there aren't many interviews from reasonably reliable sources out there, and so the one or two that exist are interesting and relevant. For famous people with hundreds of interviews I could see why one particular interview would make no sense, though. DreamGuy (talk) 20:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

An interview can be interesting, relevant and included in the article as a reference. Bearcat (talk) 21:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course. And it can also be an external link, despite you just unilaterally declaring otherwise. DreamGuy (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

There's no reason for it to be, and I'm not "unilaterally" declaring anything. Bearcat (talk) 00:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason for a blanket ban, nor even a discussion since the person making the change didn't bother to start one with a rationale for the text. 2005 (talk) 20:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

"Use such links as references instead of external links" does not mean "do not link to such interviews at all". It just means that the external links section of the article isn't the right place for them. Bearcat (talk) 21:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

To clarify: the statement was that such links are permissible as references, but should not simply be added to the external links section without an actual context for them. It's not saying that such links can't be added to the article — it's just saying that "External links" isn't the right place for such links to be added. This is not a "change", either, but a reflection of the policy as it's already applied, where the written policy simply hasn't caught up to the as-practiced-in-reality policy yet. Such updates simply don't require debate or discussion first, because they're already our actual policy-in-practice. Do you have some sort of misconception that a link that's used as a reference instead of being listed directly in the EL section somehow becomes inaccessible to the reader? Because it doesn't; it just means that the link is listed under "References" instead. Bearcat (talk) 21:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

While the initial part of the sentence you added may be common sense, the use of the phrase "but should not be added as plain external links" discourages addition of such links as external links, which is in no way the intention of this guideline. Such links can be added to the articles and only serve to add valuable additional resources within the article. If an editor wishes to use that link as an reference and remove it from external links, that's all right. But saying that they should not be added as external links is not right. Also it'd be appreciated if you do not add the sentence in question unless this discussion is resolved. There is clearly no consensus on addition of that sentence. ^LeaveSleaves 21:44, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, it most certainly is right that they not be added directly to external links; the purpose usually being pursued by people who add such links directly to EL instead of as references is as adspam for the publication. The rest of the policy is already quite clear that external links should be kept to a bare minimum of directly relevant links, not an exhaustive directory of every page on the Internet that happens to be connected to the topic in any way at all. The point is to clarify how such links can be added to the article without violating the rest of the EL policy.

And secondly, a user does not require permission to update policy-as-written to conform to policy-as-practiced, when the written document isn't specific enough about how the policy is already used. Policy-as-practiced is the actual policy; the written document is just a summary of the actual policy, which can be updated by anyone when it doesn't actually reflect the actual policy as practiced. The practice, not the document, is the determinant of what the policy is — the document is a guide to, not the determinant of, what the policy is, and the policy as practiced already is consistent with the statement under debate here. Bearcat (talk) 21:55, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, your idea of how the policy is currently used has been shown to be false by the other people on this talk page, and you clearly do not have consensus to make that change. DreamGuy (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

You are astonishingly incorrect in your assumptions. Interviews are fine as external links, period. They are linked all over the place by thousands of editors, and no guideline or policy has ever prohibited them. And obviously they should not be prohibited, especially in the case of more obscure people. 2005 (talk) 23:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

There's no reason for such an interview to be listed directly under external links instead being used as a reference. Absolutely not a single solitary one. Would you kindly stop setting up the false suggestion that if an interview isn't included directly under external links, the link somehow disappears from the article? The references section is still visible, still linkable, still accessible to the reader, which means that the link is still included in the article — it's just included under a more appropriate section heading. And I am not "assuming" anything; I'm reporting what I've personally seen a large number of editors already actually do with this exact policy cited as their reasoning. Bearcat (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course there are reasons, and this guideline has said interviews can be external links for years because there are many reasons and interview can be used as an external link, like extensive detail. You seem to be talking about something else entirely. Who is talking about something "disappearing" from an article? I believe you need to ask some questions here because your comments seem confused and don't make no sense. Under the right circumstances interviews can be cited as references (which is not the subject of this guideline), and under other circumstances an interview can be used as an external link. Looking back at some of your edits you do seem to be under some mistaken impressions, for example "official site" is an appropriate way to label the official site, and then also we do link to websites that are not official sites. This is the very, very longstanding practice of the Wikipedia, as stated in this guideline. 2005 (talk) 02:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Ahem. An interview cannot be used as a reference except under WP:SELFPUB. However, if it is used as a reference, it should not be used as an external link, per Wikipedia:External links#References and citation; unless, of course, that's the section you're trying to find consensus for changing. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin, your statement is incorrect: The transcript of an interview on a radio or television show is perfectly acceptable as a published source. These are still interviews, even if they're not the particular kind of interview that you had in mind. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:45, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

An interview is not usable to support the truth of the statements made, only to support the interviewee saying them. That's not identical to WP:SELFPUB, but it's pretty close. 03:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

So if you publish the entire transcript of everything that the current White House Press Secretary (the official Obama spokesman) said about the administration's policies one day, then that isn't a reliable source for what the administration's policies actually are? But if a single line from the same press conference is quoted in a newspaper, then it is suddenly reliable? This is silly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I think your example would be why Arthur Rubin would say "pretty close" and not "exactly the same". If John Smith says in an interview "I am the greatest lover ever", we would not state as fact that he was the greatest lover ever, but we could say "John Smith claims to be the greatest lover ever" and use the interview as a cite. Citing the White house transcript for what it is what the White House says is its policy is fine, but it would not be fine to cite it for "The Employee Free Choice Act is a good idea." 2005 (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose What Bearcat seems to want already exists: WP:ELNO #1, which says not to dump things in ==External links== when it could be used to develop the article. The actual changes Bearcat made, unfortunately, clearly contradict other parts of this guideline (WP:ELYES #3, which specifically authorizes the inclusion of interviews in this section). The changes should not be made, therefore, as being both unnecessary and wrong. But, Bearcat, if you're having a problem with ELNO #1 compliance in an article, let us know. I'm sure you could find someone here that would help you weed a linkfarm. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:49, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm not clear on where Bearcat is coming from with this, but given how he/she has mentioned refernces/sources more than once, perhaps he/she is thinking that an interview that is mentioned in an article should not be listed in external links, but rather should be referenced, and that is standard practice... but the text added obviously is completely at odds with years of Wikipedia practice, as interviews that were not used as article sources can sometimes make fine external links, and this guideline has reflected that widespread consensus for years. 2005 (talk) 02:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have launched a new wikiproject, Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup, which is connected to this guideline ala WP:ELNEVER at Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup#Special. I'd like to invite review particularly on the project guidelines for dealing with external linkvios there, though, of course, input on any part of that project is welcome. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to request the aesthetic opinion of the editors interested and involved in the External links guideline. The external links for a TV episode includes (a) TV.com, (b) the IMDb, (c) the apropos fan wiki, and (d) the originating network's own page for the episode. As for d, the page contains a synopsis of the episode's plot, as well as a few stills from the filmes episode. I'm fussing over the wording of the last, and would like the input of the editors here who're moreso involved and interested in such.

Based on precedent (as I determine based on how other templates automatically format), I should think B is more in line, but is A more appropriate? Thanks in advance for any input! — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 16:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

First and foremost, we aren't supposed to link to outside wikis in general, per the rules on the WP:EL page, so the A in both columns shouldn't be there at all. (I realize it's become common for people to mess up and ignore this rule, but that doesn't mean it's right.) And the official page should almost always be first, just as a matter of priority. The wording as n column B is preferable, as it's not strictly a review if it's the official site. DreamGuy (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Would the Battlestar Wiki not be exempt as a wiki with "a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors."? It's my opinion that it would, but I don't know if there's any specific criteria for such a determination. I agree that the official link should be first, thanks for that input. Thanks for your time! — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 17:04, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I think inclusion of Battlestar wiki would be okay here. As pd_THOR puts it, the wiki can be considered as one containing good information. The ordering needs to be changed though. I'd say the link to wiki should be the last one. And linking both TV.com and IMDb looks needless. Link both only if you fill both provide different information. ^LeaveSleaves 17:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'll look into the links more in detail before deciding whether they're all needed, thanks! Do you have an opinion on the formatting/wording of the SCIFI.com link? — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 17:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd say either is okay. Also put that link first as DreamGuy suggested above. ^LeaveSleaves 17:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Most wikis fail the #1 criteria on our list of links to be avoided: "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." Wikis about specific fiction shows are the prime offenders here.. DreamGuy (talk) 20:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Most wiki's of this sort provide far more leeway for in-univerese information then Wikipedia does, so it possibly cannot fail #1. — Edokter • Talk • 18:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying you are looking to make a generic template for all TV shows, if so, don't. That would be a terrible idea since it is way too broad a subject area. If you are just talking about only the BattleStar article, then nevermind. 2005 (talk) 20:56, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no, I'm mainly just asking about the formatting and aesthetics of the SCIFI.com link with regards to its content and the links already formatted around it. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 21:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't put the name of the website in ALL CAPS. Other than that issue, I have no preference between the two choices (and agree with everyone else about listing the official website first, and ditching anything that doesn't provide at least some unique content). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

• At Uncyclopedia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Charitwo (talk · contribs)

Keeps reverting my updates to the sources and external links, which is against these guidelines. I see no reason to use the old .org when the website has moved to a Wikia (.wikia.com). There is no need to rely on a second domain, or to make use of the redirect domain. All links to the .org domain get a HTTP 301 response, user hasn't give many reasons for this; User_talk:Charitwo#Edits.--Otterathome (talk) 07:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Blacklist this at meta, the site is problematic, all redirects to the site can safely be blacklisted and users can use the proper domain-name. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I've tried getting the interwiki removed to the .org domain, see meta:Talk:Interwiki_map#uncyclopedia. But no response.--Otterathome (talk) 14:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

An editor is trying to insert links to a Bible site (and in some case replace references to biblegateway.com with his link. He says it is " a mashup of the Bible, social networking elements and a topical search engine for the Bible. Unlike some of the other bible sites, Just1Word is completely a ministry site without a theological position that it is trying to advance. It is not attempting to bring new community to people like social networks, but merely utilizes tie-ins to the social networks to allow people to discuss the bible." This is the home page and the account page of the site: . I think it fails WP:EL easily, but am bringing it here so he can defend it. Dougweller (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

My initial thoughts: it is quite apparent that the site is primarily intended as a social networking venue based on common interests (in this case The Bible). Now for the Bible part of the site, I doubt if that part is any superior to other sites. I'm not particularly familiar with Bible-related site, but I checked out the one mentioned above, BibleGateway. That site is just as good, if not better, than Just1Word's Bible portion. In fact it has many more language versions available for searching. So, in my opinion linking to homepage of Just1Word is definitely not acceptable. As for linking the Bible part, I don't see the need since there are superior site(s) present. ^LeaveSleaves 17:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I concur with LeaveSleaves. As primarily as social networking site, it fails WP:EL. And though it has bible verses which would be fine, there is no need given that we already have this resource in BibleGateway. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 18:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I am the editor in question and do not want to cause a big ruckus however... according to WP:EL biblegateway used to comply because it was not-for-profit site without a commercial motive but now it fails WP:EL because it has been sold to Zondervan to promote the sale of materials from Zondervan (see biblegateway wiki). Links to biblegateway now fail WP:EL -- Zondervan has extensive ads throughout biblegateway to sell their products. WP:EL states under "Links to be avoided" include (#5 Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services, or to web pages with objectionable amounts of advertising. For example, in the mobile phone article, don't link to web pages that mostly promote or advertise cell-phone products or services.) The links to just1word that were inserted by the editor were not to the homepage, but to relevant verses and the book for the article (i.e., for "Genesis" a link to the book of Genesis was provided, not the homepage.) I agree that content on Just1Word is not substantially different than biblegateway, but there is no advertising, teaching or agenda at Just1Word or social networking in accordance with the WP:EL People on Just1Word cannot meet strangers or exchange thoughts on topics in a social network -- the profiles there are for private communications between friends and would never be linked to wikipedia. Bpmiller (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I see no evidence of "objectionable amount of advertising" anywhere on BibleGateway. It's practically non-existent on main or mobile site. Could you provide a link where, as you are saying, there's excessive promotion of products unrelated to Bible? ^LeaveSleaves 20:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, I concur wiht LeaveSleaves. While there is advertisitng on the site, it is not on an objectionable scale. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 20:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I concur that the advertising on Biblegateway is related to selling their bibles and related materials, but how is this NOT in contravention of the 5th guideline for WP:EL which states " Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services" should not be used. It goes on to say "or to web pages with objectionable amounts of adversting". Therefore if the purpose of Biblegateway is to sell products then it definitely fails the first part of the guideline regardless of whether it fails the second or not. Bpmiller (talk) 22:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The advertising is obviously commercial; however, ELNO 5 has to do with the nature of the entire site. By your understanding of the policy, no site with any advertising would be admissible. Clearly this is not the case. Anyway, we are not discussing Biblegateway, we are primarily discussing your site. Attacks on exisiting WP procedure will help your case about as much as your repeated reversion of the edits of established wikipedians, admins among them. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 22:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the primary purpose of Biblegateway is to sell products. I think it is primarily a reference site that happens to run a few ads and advertise a few products for sale on the side.

If the editor in question is connected to the disputed site, then it's time to invoke WP:COI, which is strictly enforced with respect to external links. You must not add your own site, and you must respect the decision of other editors about accepting/rejecting it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

ELNO has no problem with sites selling stuff, or carrying advertising. The text says "primarily". If a page is 80% adverts, it has a problem. if a page has relevant and meritable content, plus some ads, it does not. 2005 (talk) 00:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but would tutorials be okay to add? I'm referring specifically to the article on Ajax (programming). I didn't see any mention of tutorials or "how-tos" on this page so I though I'd ask. (Maybe this should be mentioned?) — ^FatalError 06:17, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Does the link otherwise comply with this guideline? If so, I think you should suggest it on the article's talk page, and let the regular editors at that page make a decision. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd support inclusion of such link so long as the host is known for good quality information and the intention of such tutorials is primarily for educational purposes. Seeing as we discourage adding how-to information in the article, a good external link can certainly serve the purpose. ^LeaveSleaves 07:06, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Well the problem is I don't know if a tutorial can be considered to contain "neutral and accurate material" or information. I don't know if it would be appropriate to include educational material, since it doesn't really increase the reader's understanding of the topic other than teaching him/her how to do it. That's why I asked. We don't have tutorials on, say, the algebra article. The link on Ajax (programming) in particular isn't exactly a "good quality" source IMO, but I'm mainly just asking about tutorials in general (in my case, specifically in programming-related articles). — ^FatalError 08:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

When we are talking about a tutorial, the work is intended particularly to teach the reader and of course it won't necessarily increase the understanding of the subject. That's the reason they are discouraged here. But that shouldn't mean that a good quality external link should be denied on similar grounds. Also when I said educational purposes, I meant that the site shouldn't have a commercial angle in getting users to visit the site. e.g. only a part of the tutorial is available for free reading and rest has to be paid for. ^LeaveSleaves 10:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does teaching someone how to do something NOT "increase the reader's understanding of the topic"? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 11:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Tutorials aren't appropriate because they're not "a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article", as specified in point #1 of "Links normally to be avoided". Our highest-quality articles on programming languages contain little if any direct tutorial-style material. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The first point in "Links normally to be avoided" should be considered when an article is becoming an FA. And in any case, FA or any other articles would have (or should have) minimal tutorial like content since that is against WP:NOTHOWTO. In such cases a value EL to tutorials could be a good addition to the article. ^LeaveSleaves 14:41, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The key words here are "unique resource". This is typically meant to mean the subject's official home page (as it is "unique"), or some other canonical and irreplaceable source. Tutorials aren't generally unique - any widely-used programming language will have dozens of good Web-accessible tutorials. They're appropriate for dmoz, but not for us. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that there isn't a clear Wikipedia-wide rule that will always apply to every possible tutorial. Therefore it's probably best to avoid WP:CREEPing generalities on our part, and to allow the regular editors at an article make their own decision (with, of course, reference to whatever aspects of this guideline appear to apply to the specific link). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not looking for a rule that applies to all tutorials, I'm just asking whether or not (in general) tutorials should be added to articles on programming languages/frameworks. I understand that there will always be exceptions, but I don't even know where to start, really, hence the reason I'm here.

Would a tutorial add anything to the article that can't be found by Googling, for example, "Ajax tutorial"? Or is that an invalid question? — ^FatalError 23:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

{{Wikibooks]] has lots f tutorials for programming language and that is the place for them. Links to tutorials are acceptable in Wikipedia articles but only if it's the best darn tutorial on the web.filceolaire (talk) 01:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

In general, we don't have a general rule at this time. If you and other editors at a page think that linking to a specific tutorial is good (for any reason that satisfies you and doesn't directly conflict with something on this page), then feel free to link it. If you don't (for any reason that satisfies you), then don't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Alright, point taken. Thanks. :) — ^FatalError 22:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I have been working on bios for United States federal judges, both creating new ones and improving old ones, and I have been adding Template:FJC Bio to the external links section. This template calls up a link to the particular judge's page in the Biographical Directory of Federal Judges, a public domain repository of information is maintained by the the Federal Judicial Center, which is a non-profit, non-commercial quasi-governmental agency. It is modeled on Template:CongBio, which similarly calls up a link to a non-commercial database on individual members of Congress.

I have been told that the use of these templates violates WP:EL, as the sites linked ideally contain no information not already in the article, and in some cases the same sites are already linked as references (albeit not with the template, and its notice of the public domain status of the source). If this is a correct statement of the policy, then I would like to propose an exception to the policy be written to accommodate inclusion of the above templates in the external links section. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Templates should follow this guideline, not the other way around. Just remove the link from the template and there is no problem. If there is nothing unique in the template, get the template deleted. 2005 (talk) 02:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The template essentially is the link - and there are now over 12,000 articles using these templates as external links, including a number of featured articles. bd2412 T 04:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Your critics are right: the links violate WP:ELNO #1, and they do not qualify for the "official website" exemption from that rule. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Then another exemption should be made. For most federal judges from the first 200 years of the country, this is as close to an "official website" that exists, or is likely ever to exist. I imagine the same must be true of many early short-serving members of Congress. bd2412 T 07:09, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I would say it counts more as a reference than an external link. That said, I see no problem with using external links for general (rather than specific) references. A possible solution: Incorporate the link to the FJC into some kind of infobox, like how IMDB/IAFD/etc. links are incorporated into actor/pornstar articles. However, I see no reason to tell the reader it's public domain; the reader likely doesn't care. As for "templates should follow the guideline, not the other way around," that's kind of a dismissal of the arguments. Guidelines can be wrong and can be rewritten as needed. --Golbez (talk) 07:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I would generally not object to having the link in an infobox (although I've seen scads of IMDB links in external links sections). The reason for the public domain tag is that at the moment, most federal judge articles are bot-generated almost-verbatim copies of the FJC information, and failing to note that their content is not subject to copyright would amount to a copyright misuse, which would jeopardize the GFDL. Although this is not a concern in articles that have developed away from this information, or did not begin by importing it, those articles represent a relative handful of the total cases. bd2412 T 09:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

My two cents: the link shouldn't be unfairly promoted in this manner, especially through the use of a template. Themfromspace (talk) 07:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The links lead to a non-profit, non-commercial database sponsored by the U.S. federal court system itself. The FJC database is quite likely the only place where all of this information is compiled in a searchable format (it offers a functionality that even Wikipedia does not, at least as of yet, in allowing searches cross referencing things such as appointing president, type of court, date of confirmation, cause of termination, etc.). bd2412 T 09:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Basically, it's a simple, excellent, free-to-use primary source, and thus should be linked somewhere, and if not as a specific reference, then as an external link. --Golbez (talk) 16:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

If "guidelines can be wrong", then an argument can be made for changing the guideline as a whole, not making an exception. We have the sole exception that official sites can do what they want. It is WP:CREEP to a mega-extreme niggly exception for this situation. If an excellent case can be made for a specific link on a specific article, fine. For example, when there is no official site for something, often something pretty close to official is a very valuable external link, so it could be looked at with a more flexible eye. In this case, it's pretty clear there is no reason for a general exception, but it might be possible for more obscure people the link could be valuable. So, such links should not be in a template. (And of course a link like this should never be in an infobox.) 2005 (talk) 08:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Then I would suggest a similar general exception for "webpages about public officials located in non-commercial, non-profit, databases of information maintained by the government or agency thereof responsible for maintaining information on those officials". bd2412 T 09:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Just as the bioguide is the pseudo-official site for information about congressmen, so this seems to be for judges. and 2005, if this link should never be in an infobox, what about IMDB/IAFD links? I could go with it not being in a template, or, maybe, have a template but only use it for substing, for simplicity. --Golbez (talk) 16:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

IMDb links in infoboxes violate this guideline, and there is a consensus to remove them. I don't know the status of that fight right now, but at most templated infoboxes should include official site links, not anything else. 2005 (talk) 22:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I don't think these links, on their face, violate WP:EL. While some of the information on the Bioguide is incorporated into the article, it doesn't necessarily mean all of the information is incorporated. Per WP:ELNO #4, the bioguide entries often include trivia and other information not suitable for inclusion in the article. I think the main problem here is not the link, but that for many early congressmen, editors took shortcuts and simply copied the Bioguide text and made that the article. Bioguide is poorly written in summary style, and definitely is not up to WP standards. The solution, then, is to improve the article and expand it to include non-bioguide information, rather than removing a relevant external link like the Bioguide.

Also, is the objection to the link or the use of a template? As far as the template goes, we need a standardized way to display the link on all congressmen articles, and WP:EL urges the use of external link templates for links to standardized database sites. In addition, Template:CongLinks is the new version for members of congress from 1991-present, and includes much more in the way of information pursuant to WP:ELNO #4, including detailed voting records, campaign funds, issues tracking, and other relevant information not suitable for inclusion in articles. Template:CongBio is depreciated for all but the earliest members of congress, since information and official sites about them and their service on the internet is sparse.DCmacnut<> 16:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

But Template:CongLinks incorporates Template:CongBio, and thereby includes the link to the sparse Congressional Biography pages - if this rule is to be enforced, then links to the Congressional Biography pages must themselves be eliminated from "External links" sections, no matter how it is that they have gotten there. bd2412 T 19:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Several points:

• WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a tediously repeated and entirely unconvincing argument on this page. For example, the mere fact that one website may, in some instances, be used in a way that violates this guideline is not an excuse for violating this guideline in the instant case. (Mentioning such problems on this page is very likely to set a couple of anti-spam people to rooting them out, though, so I particularly recommend not using this weak argument for any links that you think are appropriate.)
• Whether you link to a site using a template or by hand-coding the link is unimportant. We don't care. We care about what happens to the reader when they click the visible link.
• We don't care if the database is "non-profit and non-commercial". Their profit-arranging system is wholly and completely irrelevant. We care about its content, not its tax paperwork.
• If the contents of the Wikipedia articles are more or less swiped from this database, then you are not talking about an ==External link==. You are talking about a ==Reference==, and you must list it as such to comply with WP:Verifiability.
  • The ==External links== section is for links that you would introduce as, "If you liked this article, you can learn more about this subject by clicking here."
  • The ==References== section is "The information in this article came from the following sources." If you used this page as a source for facts in the article, then listing it under ==External links== is not sufficient or appropriate for Wikipedia's policies (and probably not sufficient for GFDL rules, either).

Hope this helps, WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

We care about templates in particular because a template should not exist that should never be used. The link of course is more important, but when templates exist novice editors think they can use them for anything. If some sites can soemtimes be an external link, but usually can not, it is not a good idea to have a template for it. 2005 (talk) 22:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a valid argument in this case, because the base templates in question were developed over many years of consensus building at Wikiproject Congress. The templates have a valid use, and are there to prevent having multiple, non-standard ways of linking to the same source. What I take the above comments to mean, though, is that the problem is the classification of the link, rather than the link itself? So, if these are all listed under a References heading they are OK, but if listed under an External Links heading they are not? I thought the guideline existed to advise on how any external link is treated, no matter where it is put in the article. I support guidelines, but guidelines can change and strict adherence to them in all cases is in conflict with ignore all rules. These links are "meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article." If they are misused in some way, we should work to correct the misuse, rather than banning a whole subset of links used in hundreds of articles.DCmacnut<> 02:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I created this template as a simple way to link articles to their corresoponding entries in the Biographical Directory of Federal Judges. This whole conversation strikes me as an ultra-legalistic approach to the External Links guideline. Very often, the Federal Judicial Center's website is the only source of complete biographical information on these judges. Plus, it is a free, public domain source. This strikes me as one of those "ignore all rules" type of situations. --Eastlaw ^talk ⁄ _contribs 03:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Certainly not. If "very often" it is "is the only source of complete biographical information" on the judges, then it should be used as source and not an external link. This is the type of situation that the guideline was made for. 2005 (talk) 03:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, OK then, so we'll just list under "References" rather than "External links". I don't see the problem with using the template in this manner. --Eastlaw ^talk ⁄ _contribs 04:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

External links templates should only be used for external links. Citation templates are suited for references. 2005 (talk) 04:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Would you prefer that I recategorize {{FJC Bio}} as a citation template rather than as an external link template? Would that solve the problem? Seriously, I am asking you here, what would you have us do? --Eastlaw ^talk ⁄ _contribs 04:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd have you list your sources under ==References==, so that people will know that they were used to develop the article. If you have questions about how to cite your sources, then you might ask at WP:Citing sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I've moved about 2,000 of them from "External links" to "Sources" - will finish tomorrow. Cheers! bd2412 T 06:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there any difference between using "References" and "Sources"? I generally only use "References" for actual dropped footnotes. bd2412 T 20:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

==Sources== is deprecated because it could mean so many other things (see Source), we have perfectly good alternatives (like ==References== and ==Footnotes==), and because source has a specific definition at WP:V that is a bit more expansive than a citation. If an article is using inline refs, I'd probably just add an inline ref at the first appropriate place. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

In this case,hey will do perfectly well as "==sources==", because, as said just above, it can mean almost anything that it is necessary to have it mean. But they never did violate WP:EL. It is not the only source of complete information, but the most convenient source of information, and that fits equally well as an EL or as a reference. However, there's something said above that is totally wrong--which is that if something needs an exception, we must not do it, but rather change the necessary guideline. Guidelines by their very nature are intended to admit of exceptions. See Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. The purpose of having them is to deal with the general run of things, not to cover every eventuality. in every case, there remains a real policy, which is WP:IAR -- if something in the rules is a hindrance to improving the encyclopedia, ignore it and improve the encyclopedia. I am not one of those who invoke this frequently, but it's proper use is in dealing with special cases or something novel.

Objecting to these was another example of what I call "external links paranoia". If there is a public free accurate source of information on the subject and it serve to extend the material of the article, then we should use it. The more sources/links/whatever of this sort we can find, the better, and we should add them everywhere they apply. DGG (talk) 01:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Your mischaraterization of what I wrote is beyond silly. The purpose of guidelines is state the general consensus of editors. Exceptions can be made, but the burden is on those advocating the exception to make a case for why an exception can be made, and then gain a consensus to that effect. We don't need to change a guideline for an exception. Where could you possibly get that? Also it is plainly wrong to say "If there is a public free accurate source of information on the subject and it serve to extend the material of the article, then we should use it." We have policies against copyright violations and so on, and Wikipedia is not many things that could improve an article. We should NOT add things that violate the policies of the encyclopedia. IAR rules is not each editors own personal fiat to do anything they personally judge is best. The encyclopedia runs by consensus, and is not intended to be a constant fight between people hiding behind IAR to be a dick. 2005 (talk) 06:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

It's been pointed out several times in the above discussion that the websites at issue in this instance are in the public domain - which I think DGG addressed in referring to "a public free accurate source of information". Ergo, there is no possibility of a copyright violation, except to the extent that the GFDL would be invalid if Wikipedia tried to restrict downstream users from copying that public domain information. The websites at issue contain tersely presented but fairly complete biographical outlines of the subjects - where they were educated, what occupations they had prior to serving in Congress or on a court, respectively, and how they came to be in the public office that it the bailiwick of the database, and usually the source of the subject's notability. In short, any Wikipedia entry on the subject of one of these webpages would be incomplete if it lacked any of the details provided in these webpages. bd2412 T 06:25, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I generally agree with your comments here, but the big deal in this instance is that you must WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. It's asserted above that this website was used to write the articles. You must therefore cite it as a source instead of dumping it in the ==External links== section as if you had never drawn on it when writing the Wikipedia article. And once you do that, this guideline is essentially irrelevant (and many more important ones, like WP:V, WP:RS, WP:CITE, etc., apply). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:11, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with these links and would urge that they be retained, and indeed, that their use be continued and even expanded. Among other reasons for this, please note that in addition to the factual content contained in the Congressional Biographical Directory or Federal Judicial Directory biographical entry on each legislator or judge, the entries also contain listings of books by and about the individual, as well as a directory of locations of manuscript collections relating to the person—information that often is not included in the Wikipedia article or included only in summary form. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is advocating removal of the links. However, it is much better to use these reliable sources as references, and to develop the articles with all the desirable details, than to dump them in ==External links==. That's the whole point of WP:ELNO #1. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification/reiteration. Please bear in mind that the fine points of a given guideline or policy may not be readily apparent even to fairly experienced editors who have not previously dealt with that particular policy. This suggestion makes excellent sense, and although I can't say that it's a top priority to move these references from one section of each article to another, I will urge that we do so over time as the articles are edited and follow the practice as articulated for future articles. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that's great. Ultimately, I hope that the links will really be "fully exploited" to develop the article, because they sound like great sources. That's definitely something that takes time and significant effort instead of a simple cut-and-paste. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Coming late to this topic, but I was the person removing the templates (would have come earlier had I been informed). But I only removed the templates from those articles that already incorporated the info into the article AND already HAD the link to the FJC or CongBio in them in the references section. Thus, and only then, was it a violation of EL. There is not an objection to the link, only in how it was being promoted despite existing guidelines prohibiting this type of promotion of links already used as sources. Aboutmovies (talk) 22:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I want to use this link as a reference but it includes a few odd characters that messes things up when the html is parsed. Anybody know a way around it? The link leads to a public archive. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 16:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

https://gencat.eloquent-systems.com/webcat/request/Action?SystemName=City+of+Toronto+Archives&UserName=wa+public&Password=&UniqueID=6000_1051_1051_44&TemplateProcessID=6000_1051_1051&PromptID=&ParamID=&TemplateProcessID=6000_1051_1051&PromptID=&ParamID=&CMD_(DetailRequest)[0]=&ProcessID=6000_1980(0)&KeyValues=KEY_89436

• [0=&ProcessID=6000_1980(0)&KeyValues=KEY_89436]

Here you go. I've replaced the square brackets with their percent-encoded equivalents. — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 12:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! That works great. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 13:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I'm here to make sure I've been understanding our guidelines correctly. Over at List of liqueurs, there is an editor who noticed that there were a lot of liqueurs that were red links, and he went out and found sources verifying the existence of these liqueurs, and added them to the article. Here is one iteration of the edit in question.

Now, I've been arguing on the talk page that we don't link to commercial websites from our articles, at least not links to pages selling products that we don't even have articles about. The editor who wants to add the links has argued that my reading of the guideline is wrong, and that these links are very useful, because they verify the existence of certain liqueurs, and they could help someone write a proper article in the future. I tend to think that this argument is outweighed by the whole "no commercial links" thing, but I might as well ask here.

If I'm right, that such links are deprecated, then the other editor might want to know that. On the other hand, if I'm wrong, and if you can say why, then there's someone at Talk:List of liqueurs who would be very happy to hear from you. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no such rule saying "no commercial links," the rule states that such links are "to be avoided." I do avoid them, at all costs, except when links of a commercial nature are unavoidable in order to have the most thorough and encyclopedic article on a given subject. This is usually the case for consumer products (including commercial foods and beverages), popular culture products, musical groups, etc., which are not well documented in print media but for which there are numerous Internet sources. We just have to be reasonable and judicious in our use of external links as references, and to evaluate each case on an individual basis, using reasonableness and thoughtfulness in our discussions regarding the merits of each link. What more (or less) could we, as long-time editors ask of our colleagues than careful discussion regarding the use of such links? Badagnani (talk) 04:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that's the problem. The question shouldn't be whether commercial links are allowed or not, but whether those particular liqueurs should be listed at all. It looks more like a question of notability of the drinks themselves than the appropriateness of the links. If the notability of a certain drink cannot be proven, it should be removed from the list.

For those drinks that are notable but simply don't have a Wikipedia article (there should be very few), commercial links commercial links should not be used. In general, if the only information you can find on it is with that certain commercial link, it's probably not notable anyway, and thus should be removed. My two cents. — ^FatalError 06:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This guideline does not cover sources, so its not the right place to ask. What the editor is doing though is improper if the "source" is unreliable. Personally I'd get rid of all the redlinks. 2005 (talk) 08:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The difficulty here is that, unlike a lot of other subjects, liqueurs (except for the very most famous ones) simply are not covered widely in print media. Further, specifics regarding liqueurs' ingredients are typically only provided in the ingredients lists provided by the manufacturers themselves. This is somewhat the same case as soft drinks. People like to drink liqueurs, but generally not write about them so much (at least many of them) in books, have tastings, etc. So we do use the best links possible--non-commercial in most cases, but commercial where those are the best and only links available to verify the existence, ABV, ingredients, etc. of these liqueurs. We have a responsibility to our users to provide the most thorough and encyclopedic articles possible, and for this one it doesn't assist our readers to delete many liqueurs because some editors do not like the best references available for them. Again, this is why the guideline states that commercial links are "to be avoided"; it does not say "...must never be used." The reason is that our project's editors must always maintain reasonableness as the foremost trait, in editing articles for our users. Badagnani (talk) 17:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there are 2 issues that are being conflated here. The commercial web cites are being used as Sources for the article and are therefore not subject to the WP:ELNO. The question becomes whether or not as first party sources they meet our WP:RS requirements, and that discussion belongs elsewhere. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, if the only information available about a liqueur is from a website that sells it, then we don't need any information about it, because it's non-notable. I've suggested to Badagnani that it would be fine to have those links on talk pages of red-pages, for the benefit of someone who wants to write said articles later, but Badagnani seems committed to having those links live on the main List of liqueurs, driving traffic to those commercial sites and upping their Google rank. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, the guideline says "...to be avoided," not "...must never be used." We must be reasonable in everything we do at WP, keeping our users (and providing the most thorough and encyclopedic article possible for them) foremost in our minds. Your opinion that a given liqueur is non-notable is just that--and to top it off (no put intended), actually we've so far had no discussion about any discrete link or liqueur, though I have requested such more than 12 times. That represents a breakdown of our project's fundamentally collaborative and deliberative process. Each reference should be evaluated, thoughtfully and with care, on its own merits, exercising reasonableness at all times. Yes, such discussion does take time. Badagnani (talk) 17:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there's likely a question of notability here. But that question should be discussed elsewhere on Wikipedia.

On EL v. RS discussions, lists seem to be more in-line with how an external links section would normally be built rather than an article using citations for prose - so I feel an argument can be made that EL is more appropriate that RS as an appropriate question for that component of the use of links.

On the last issue brought up, re: "driving traffic to those commercial sites and upping their Google rank", I don't see where that should fit into our discussions. First, Wikipedia uses nofollow tags in all external links; and even if we didn't, Google is a seperate website outside of the control of this site - how another site runs their systems shouldn't be a concern in discussions here. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:55, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Do we have nofollow in our articles? We didn't used to, and that was definitely a consideration. I know a lot of Wikipedians feel strongly that we're not here to drive traffic to commercial sites, and that people often object to such links on those grounds. The idea seems to be that we don't want to do their marketing, while a lot of companies really want us to. If I'm way off-base about that, then oops. I'd like to know for sure. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

If you use Firefox for web browsing you can confirm this by right-clicking an external link and choosing "properties", the window that pops up will show for external link in article "relationship: nofollow". It doesn't look like IE provides that detail about the links, not sure about other browsers. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The nofollow tags have been in place since January 2007. - Eureka Lott 18:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It's kind of a moot point anyway, as the copious amount of mirrors do not necessarily use nofollow tags, and getting links into Wikipedia articles do result in very real increases in Google rankings, whether it be thanks to the mirrors, mention of the name even without the link, or from visitors seeing the links and then linking to the sites themselves. Promotional links are still promotional. DreamGuy (talk) 18:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, we do use corporate websites where they are the only ones with the information we need to cite. For example, see the use of PepsiCo websites as references at the Pepsi article. I would not advocate removing those where they are the only, and best references for the information cited, although the PepsiCo website is primarily a for-profit website of the company producing Pepsi and other PepsiCo beverages. This is why discussions must focus on individual links and individual text referenced rather than making blanket presciptions based on our guideline. Badagnani (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

In an article about a company, of course we link to the corporate website. That's very different from linking to pages that sell specific prodcuts, just to prove that those (non-notable) products exist. Very, very different. If you want the discussion to focus on specific links, then you're very free to make that happen. If you decline, it's because you're happier w/ the current situation. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

In many cases we do link to the production company's website for liqueurs, where that reference is the best or only link available. However, the problem is that many liqueur manufacturers do not even have websites, or, if they do, have no information about that liqueur. Many of them, for example, have lavish Flash animation yet none of it is substantive; it's targeted to the party drinkers, and thus the content is superficial and has nothing about the liqueur's ingredients, history, etc. Thus, the only available online references are second-tier websites that either sell or explain about the liqueur, often listing the ingredients or whatever. In every case, the references added were the best and most informative available. Those of us who edit this page regularly knew all of this, and if editors are truly interested in this subject, they'll learn these vagaries, which are of course different for every page. That's why careful and deliberate discussion really are always extremely helpful. Let's have the editor who wished to remove the links select a liqueur whose reference s/he wished to remove to begin discussing. Badagnani (talk) 18:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

"In many cases we do link to the production company's website for liqueurs, where that reference is the best or only link available." Examples, please. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:38, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not delve into the removed links yourself (as I had asked at least 14 times be done with care and seriousness prior to their wholesale deletion)? There are very many. One is this one, verifying the Copa de Oro liqueur. I think this one is fairly new. Like many other liqueurs, most of the online sources, predictably, are of the manufacturers/distributors themselves, as well as various informal websites. It's not really a scholarly subject, thus we use the best links that can be found; in this case, the link is comparable for those of the PepsiCo website we use at Pepsi. The link provides, from the producer's official site, the nation of production as well as ingredients, which are bits of information we need for the List of liqueurs article. We're not using it to source a claim that it's the "best tasting" liqueur or anything like that; simply to verify its existence and to verify information about its ingredients. Badagnani (talk) 18:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is Copa de Oro notable enough to cover in Wikipedia? Doesn't the topic have to be notable? -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:44, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Because, following our notability guidelines, it is one of the most notable and widely distributed examples of its genre (coffee liqueurs). Badagnani (talk) 18:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

How do you know that? Which independent sources say it? -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This is easily verifiable. Are you trying to "get my goat" here? I am a long-time editor with an expertise in this subject; we trust each other on matters of expertise, as I defer to editors with greater knowledge in a given subject than I (and often seek their advice when editing a page in which I have lesser expertise). User:Shabbychef, for example, is the closest thing to an expert one could find for Amaro (drink), and I would always defer to him on this particular sub-specialty within the field of liqueur studies. Badagnani (talk) 18:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I am absolutely NOT trying to get your goat. I would never do that. You asked for discussion with "care and seriousness", and that's what I'm giving you. You want to accuse me of trolling?

The point I'm trying to make is that we only want information that is verifiable in reliable, independent sources. Whatever independent sources say about Copa de Oro liqueur, we will cheerfully report. Anything that you have to go to a website selling it to find out, we don't want. That's not an independent source. Am I wrong? -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The above shows that you are either not reading the above comments carefully, or selectively disregarding some of them. The guideline enumerates links to be avoided, but where such links are the best available (as with the Pepsi article or Copa de Oro, which you did not even mention, despite my going to great lengths to answer your previous question), reasonableness dictates that they're used for the purposes of verifying a liqueur's existence, nation of production, and ingredients. As I mentioned at some length in regard to another of your earlier questions, the subject of liqueurs takes some ingenuity of sourcing to provide the most thorough and encyclopedic article possible, as, aside from the very most famous ones, liqueurs are a subject most often covered in Internet sources rather than in scholarly publications such as books (you didn't address those points either). Actually addressing these points would be highly valued. Badagnani (talk) 18:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I directly addressed the Pepsi question above. I'll reply at more length. The information in the Pepsi article is not verified via the PepsiCo website. The information comes from independent sources. See all the independent sources at the bottom of the page? Those are the best available. We include the link to the corporate homepage - not a page directly selling Pepsi, for the sake of completeness. It's a very notable corporation.

Look at the order here: 1 - We use independent sources to write an article about a product. 2 - Having done that, we can link to the homepage of the corporation making the product, not to a page selling the product. Step 1 has to happen before Step 2. If the only source available is not independent of the subject, then the subject is non-notable, by our in-house definition of notability.

Have I addressed the points you wanted me to? Please let me know what I still haven't addressed. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

A link to the homepage of Heaven Hill distilleries, maker of Copa de Oro, in an independently researched article about Copa de Oro would be entirely appropriate. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Please take the time to read the Pepsi article carefully, not just skim it. A look at the actual references shows links such as these:

• http://www.pepsico.com/PEP_Company/History/index.cfm#

• http://www.pepsico.com/PEP_Company/Honors/index.cfm

• http://www.pepsiindia.co.in/aboutus_corporateprofile.html

Thus, this comment:

is not accurate. As with any article on a commercial product, particularly food and beverage products, we use the best sources available, and, if necessary, from the producer itself if that is the best available, as in the Pepsi article. In the future, please read articles referred to in Discussion with more thoroughness before commenting. Badagnani (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

(Undent) I want to say two things about this topic, just for future reference by the involved editors:

• WP:RSN is the right place to have this discussion.
• WP:N does not apply to individual items in a list.

Beyond that, I think this discussion can be closed (here) as the wrong forum. If no one objects in the next day or so, perhaps we'll even archive it by hand in an effort to keep this page on topic. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I would not object to archiving it. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Having encountered problems in adding a link to this topic (and following subsequent discussion of this matter) I have come to appreciate that Wikipedia is purely an encyclopedia consisting of text information about specific topics - indeed Wikipedia's policy specifically says it's not a directory. On the basis of this understanding I would like to propose that, rather than a list of links at the bottom of the topic, a single well-chosen link to a directory of websites or organizations relevant to the Mod movement is used - such a directory is readily available at the Open Directory Database and in fact all of the links already in place in the Wikipedia topic are already listed in this directory, plus several other useful links!

If this is agreed, suggestions can easily be made to the Open Directory for further inclusions in this listing, whilst the Wikipedia topic remains undisturbed - with just a single link to that listing.

I have started a discussion on this matter in the article's discussion page but there has been little activity on the page recently

Thanks for your consideration Glasgowmods (talk) 11:53, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I recently set up the linkwatchers and COIBot to detect redirect sites. My primary aim was there to catch the tinyurl-lookalikes, and I have already caught a couple of those. It also catches the more regulars which apparently can be misused as redirects (one can set up blogspot to be a redirect ..). All these have been (meta-)blacklisted on sight.

However, I come accross some which are 'the other way around', and I am not sure what to do with them. I mean, addition of (example links) www.jimbowales.com to Jimbo Wales as the official homepage (which seems quite appropriate), but where www.jimbowales.com redirects to www.myspace.com/jimbowales. The guideline now expresses it as "It is generally preferred to link to the exact destination of a link. For instance, if example.com is an automatic redirect to tripod.com/example, it is better to link to the exact page, even if the webmaster considers the redirect address to be more official.", would I be correct in 'correcting' that edit (to 'www.myspace.com/jimbowales Jimbo Wales on MySpace')? Additionally, would the redirect site be up for blacklisting as it can be abused? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 17:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The rules appear to be designed with the assumption that the target will always remain, but that a person might not choose to keep the domain registered. That is, www.myspace.com/jimbowales will always exist, but jimbowales.com may disappear.

However, it could go the other way: What if the MySpace account is closed, and jimbowales.com is moved to its own server? If you blacklist jimbowales.com, and this scenario occurs, then we'll have the actual website blacklisted and a dead link approved.

I therefore don't think that you want to blacklist the sites. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, blacklisting is necesserily forever .. but I see the problems on two sides. If the myspace gets abused, then that may be blacklisted, but the redirect to it is still there, free to abuse (though I would now have a good chance of detecting that). On the other hand, indeed, what if Jimbo decides to pay a bit more, and make his own site, and store it at jimbowales.com, then it is suddenly a blacklisted site .. I'll try to apply common sense to it.

What about replacing the redirect with the proper link? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 11:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your 'common sense' and good judgement approach. As for replacing the redirect with the target, I have no idea. It might be a good choice, and it might not. I think you could follow the rule you describe above, and freely ignore it whenever you thought it was reasonable or appropriate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The guideline says sites that require subscriptions should be avoided. What about sites that have a mix of free content and subscription content? Some sites have both free articles/content and stuff that is only available to subscribers. For those sites, do we just avoid the subscriber content but are free to link to the content open to everyone? TJ Spyke 01:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, if there is free content (substantive, enough to link to on its own) and it otherwise meets our criteria we can link to it regardless of whether other sections require payment. Strict "no link if the site has any pay-only content" would mean ruling out links to good sites like the New York Times, etc. DreamGuy (talk) 13:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, it is anyway good practice to link to the official page of the company on the company page here, but linking to the information for which a subscription is needed should be avoided. Indeed, excluding the whole site would be a way too strict reading of the guideline. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments, and add only that these statements apply to ==External links==, not to ==References==. Convenience links to pay sites are just fine for references. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Is this the correct board to ask about whether a certain EL should be included in an article, or is this board only about improving this project page? I am specifically wonder whether inside a biography EL section, a link should be included to a web based research group that lists articles that has the subjects name appearing in those articles. The web site is not directly related to the subject of the bio per say. Thank you, Tom (talk) 02:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Is the group by any chance an attack group on the subject? Does it do more than any user could do with Google Scholar or Google? We need the actual example. DGG (talk) 04:04, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm betting it's this link:

• Stories on Tapper from Media Matters for America

in Jake Tapper, which needs someone with a clear notion of WP:NOT#LINKS to weed it, as it contains not just his bio, but also his blog, his twitter feed, his personal website, and more.

Tom, if I've guessed correctly, then the link is unacceptable for several reasons, including WP:ELNO #9: "Links to any search results pages, such as links to individual website searches...". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:05, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes WhatamIdoing, you guessed correctly and also great minds think alike :) I sort of came to the same conculsion, but it took me about 4 days to figure that out. Anyways, better late than never I say. Aren't the personal links OK? Thanks for both your feedbacks, I apprecitate it and might get more involved with EL sections in the future...once I am done cleaning up all the See also sections of course :) Cheers! Tom (talk) 04:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

It depends a bit on what is meant by a "personal blog", but generally, no. People are not usually notable for, say, celebrating their birthdays or meeting a friend for coffee, which is the sort of stuff that's usually in a personal blog. You want the fewest number of 'official' websites possible listed (because Wikipedia is not a web directory). I don't think that it's possible to justify a Twitter link under this guideline. For the others, you need to figure out which ones link to the others, and remove any duplicates. For example, if the ABC bio page links to his ABC blog, then you don't need to provide the link to the blog. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) This still is an "issue". Can other uninvolved folks please comment as to whether this link is appropriate for the Jake Tapper article external links section. Thank you, --Tom (talk) 16:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

An (persistent) editor has cited nationmaster.com in attesting that Domenica Dominica has the highest crime rate in the world. While they get no award for petty crime, they are screamingly not a "high crime area" and almost famously non-violent. I don't know whether this is invariably peculiar to nationmaster.com, but I thought I would report at least this one instance to see if anyone else is having the same problem with data from that site. The site is not obviously biased when glancing at it. Student7 (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the proper venue for your query would be WP:RS/N, since you seem to be worried about the reliability of the contents and use of that site as a source. ^LeaveSleaves 15:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Domenica is a rock band. If they have the highest crime rate in the world that's be remarkable. And isn't Nationmaster just primarily a mirror of Wikipedia? DreamGuy (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Dominica - Student7 is editing both, hence the confusion. Here Nationmaster is using as their source "Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000" which is a bit old I'd think. Dougweller (talk) 16:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Specifically the site is odd data from nationmaster. I've looked at the other data on this specific page and it all looks really funny with New Zealand, Denmark and Finland being the places to avoid; Jamaica and Columbia being the places for tourists looking for safety!

Thanks LeaveSleaves, I'll post on RS/N.Student7 (talk) 22:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

This is to let people know that there is only a day or so left on a poll. The poll is an attempt to end years of argument about autoformatting which has also led to a dispute about date linking. Your votes are welcome at: Wikipedia:Date formatting and linking poll. Regards Lightmouse (talk) 09:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a discussion on the talk page where someone wants to add a link which pretty clearly fails WP:EL. Until a minute ago, there were 2 links to another site, which I've combined into one -- but I am not at all convinced it passes WP:EL - what do others think about ? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 17:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Twitter feeds, while fun and very 'of the moment', are IMO not encyclopedic resources. It's not really something you can click on and learn more about a subject. Basically, it's a one-way chat forum. Nearly half of the Twitter feeds on Wikipedia are actually outside the mainspace (don't panic when you check out the 1100 existing links) and some are duplicates, but there are maybe 500 links in articles as either refs or ELs, and the quick sample I checked had pretty poor quality. For example, February 2009 Victorian bushfires has a twitter feed from a local radio station. If you click the link, you'll see traffic tie ups in the local area, without one word about the disaster. (Oh, and this one is a visible external link in the body of the article, no less.)

Many times, the Twitter feed is being listed simply because it exists, without bothering to see whether it's already linked in the official website/official blog/official everything else list that is being crammed in to bios. I propose that we update WP:ELNO #10:

10. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace and Facebook), chat or discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups), USENET newsgroups or e-mail lists.

to include Twitter feeds (possibly placing it between Yahoo! Groups and USENET). As being explicit about their "normally not accepted" status represents a change, I'd like to hear comments from anyone interested in this issue (ideally for several days before we make any changes). Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Unless it's the ONLY "official website" of someone notable enough for a Wikipedia article, I can't see how ever linking to a Twitter feed would make sense. DreamGuy (talk) 16:10, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree, Twitter links are quite like MySpace or Facebook links, and should usually not be linked (unless they are, in some way, the primary and official website of something/someone). --Conti|✉ 16:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I had recieved different interpretation when I asked about the twitter link at LeVar Burton. Someone indicated that they interpreted twitter as a type of official blog. (I had missed OrangeMikes reply).-- The Red Pen of Doom 17:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm thinking of the twitter feeds of Barack Obama and Stephen Fry as examples where a number of published sources refer to, and discuss the use of, these feeds and/or the individual is particularly famous for using twitter. Perhaps the easy to apply rule should be that they are never allowed as you can generally add links to the published sources that refer to the feeds if they are significant with the only exception that such links are allowed when the twitter feed is featured and directly discussed in a section of the article?—Ashleyvh (talk) 11:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

If the Twitter link is discussed in the article, then it can be listed as a ref in the article (and therefore is not needed in the external links section).

Overall, it sounds like people support adding Twitter as an example in WP:ELNO #10. Does anyone have a significantly different interpretation of the above? If not, we should update the guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

As the Stephen Fry BLP has a long standing external link to twitter (his official site is separate) I have raised RfC: Is Stephen Fry's twitter link an exception to WP:ELNO and so far the consensus is to keep. Famous twitterers with tweets that are widely published may be an useful exception to mention.—Teahot (talk) 17:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

An official site can possibly always be an exception. That is in the guideline already so no need to add further language to cover this situation. In general though, except for a person's official page I can't imagine a Twitter link ever being an appropriate external link. 2005 (talk) 21:56, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

And in the case of multiple "official" sites, if the Twitter link is easily accessible on another, it should generally be skipped (just the way you skip any other "official" page that is prominently linked on another official page). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there anywhere in Wikipedia that there is specific guidance for lists of books tacked on to the article as "Further reading"? It appears to me that such a list needs to be guided by the same principals as adding links to external sites - perhaps even more so because readers of Wikipedia will have a much much harder time accessing particular books than they would clicking on a link. -- The Red Pen of Doom 11:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Further reading#Further reading contains the guidance. (Found with the search at Help:Contents.) If in doubt about a particular item in these sections, ask at the talkpage, or consult your local library (same as for any offline reference). Note that we do not have a preference towards using online references (see Wikipedia:References#Links and ID numbers) - it's merely an added bonus if it's available online. -- Quiddity (talk) 17:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's very poor "guidance". Reccomended books that may be useful, gee. But since they are not external links this really isn't the page to discuss it. 2005 (talk) 21:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It is not unrelated. some articles have done similarly to External inks practice, giving a selected list of readily available current English books that provide the best view of the general subject at various levels. If there is need for specific less available works to document the details, that should be left for the references. If it is desired to list older or classical works beyond that, they are listed separately--but normally they can be covered best as references to the section of the history of the subject. A complete unselected bibliography of whatever can be found, taken usually from a library catalog without respect to utility, generally without having seen most of them, does not benefit the reader, any more than a total list of all the available web sites would. Those web sites can be just as well found directly on Google, and the books on WorldCat. A carefully selected list is what is wanted. I cannot emphasize too much that this is different from references, which must document everything needing documentation, by using the best sources in whatever language and the best ones in english. DGG (talk) 03:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)!

Your views are welcome on the subject of adding an External link to the Susan Boyle article. Talk:Susan_Boyle#RfC:_Should_the_Susan_Boyle_article_include_an_external_link_to_a_youtube_video_of_her_4.11.09_performance_on_Britains.27s_Got_Talent.3F SunCreator (talk) 22:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)