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Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)/Archive 2016

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Change subsection title at WP:PORNBIO

The subsection is titled "pornographic actors and models" but the text applies to "people involved in pornography" including e.g. directors. Should we change the subsection title to "people involved in pornography" as well, to avoid confusion? --Sammy1339 (talk) 03:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

The most recent change made to the wording referred to above came only as an attempt to be "more concise ... without changing (the) meaning" of the actual wording of PORNBIO, which really only applies to "Pornographic actors and (only) pornographic models". Film directors (from any genre) can also be evaluated under the creative professionals standard. Guy1890 (talk) 05:10, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Film producers

Is there guidance somewhere about what constitutes notability for producers - of films, TV shows, etc.? I can't find it at this page or at WP:NFILM, but I'm guessing that consensus guidelines do exist - possibly not written down. My specific question is, if a person has been the producer (THE producer, not just one out of several executive producers) of a notable TV series or film, is that considered to make them notable? Or does it require multiple such productions, or a particularly notable production? Or what is required? Thanks for any information. --MelanieN (talk) 03:53, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

It seems to me that the closest guideline for producers would be the creative professionals guideline. Guy1890 (talk) 05:15, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

RfC notice: Ethnicity in infoboxes

FYI
 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Ethnicity in Infoboxes for ongoing RfC to remove |ethnicity= from infoboxes. (Not sure why this page wasn't notified earlier, since the central question of relevance of inclusion is whether it relates to the subject's reasons for notability).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:52, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

RfC notice: Religion in biographical infoboxes

FYI
 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes for new RfC to remove |religion= from {{Infobox person}} (except where consensus determines it is directly relevant to why the subject is notable).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  01:26, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Notability for district attorneys?

I have a bit of a question/concern. I know that politicians at the state level are considered to be notable, meaning that politicians serving in the House of Representatives would be considered notable. However would a U.S. District Attorney for the state of Virginia be considered noteworthy for having served in that role? I would presume so, but I wanted to ask before I threw it onto my huge pile of articles that need to be written. The person in question is this guy. He otherwise doesn't have a ton of coverage outside of reprintings of court documents. Tokyogirl79LVA (talk) 14:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Note: that guy is not a district attorney but a United States Attorney. I think it's very much a case by case basis in either case though. In that particular one, I think the Encyclopedia of Virginia makes a pretty decent case for notability; assuming that there are other sources besides that one alone, I'd call that notable. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:42, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the clarification! I wasn't entirely sure on that one. In any case, finding sources for Ferguson is surprisingly difficult considering some of the claims to fame in the article. Most of it is primary, as it's accounts of his various interactions with the legal system and government. Part of this is probably because he went by S. Ferguson Beach and somewhat under his full name, depending on the document. S. Ferguson Beach seems to be the common name, though. I'll add it to my pile, since it looks like that one will take some serious digging. He's probably mentioned somewhere in some off-Internet source. Tokyogirl79LVA (talk) 14:56, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
    • I don't know what the state of digitised newspapers is in Virginia, but I find it hard to believe that a United States Attorney wouldn't have newspaper coverage from the period: a Google News search for the US Attorney in Virginia's Eastern District today (picking one at random) turns up nearly eight hundred hits.. The Drover's Wife (talk) 15:15, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Location of sources

If a biography has coverage entirely from a certain geographic region, does that make them less notable? I wrote an article about a former mayor of a 25,000 person city, Linda Cohen, and it is currently up for deletion. There are at least two sources that cover her life in-depth. However, one is from a large but local newspaper and the other from a local weekly. Several editors have argued that because the coverage is from sources based in her region, they should be discounted as routine. However, I found nothing about this in guidelines. Please advise and comment if you see fit.--TM 22:20, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

vagueness of WP:NACTOR

The guideline WP:NACTOR is very vague. How many "significant roles"? How many notable films etc. is "multiple notable films etc."? How many people make a "large fan base"? Are these requirements all needed or only one of them? --SuperJew (talk) 20:25, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

  • "How many 'significant roles'?"
See below, but a "significant role" has usually meant a non-bit part or not an uncredited role.
"How many notable films etc. is 'multiple notable films etc.'?"
Multiple has historically just meant more than one on Wikipedia, but the films/television shows/stage performances/etc. in question likely need to have their own Wikipedia pages already in order to be "notable".
"How many people make a 'large fan base'?"
That's a great question...to which I've never seen an answer as of this date.
"Are these requirements all needed or only one of them?"
Only one of the three specific items listed under "Entertainers" is needed to pass NACTOR. Guy1890 (talk) 03:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

PORNBIO and significant or well-known awards

Criterion #1 of WP:PORNBIO is so vague as to be useless. What makes an award significant or well-known enough to prove notability? No one seems to agree. I've read through this talk page's archives trying to find what consensus there might be on this topic and the best I found was back in 2014 (following the last major revamp of the criteria) where someone said that the award or the award-giving group should be in Category:Pornographic film awards, an assertion which was immediately disputed (Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)/Archive 2014#PORNBIO again). Since this is such a contentious area, there should be a clear list (most likely somewhere on WP:PORN) of what awards (and media appearances, for that matter) are considered acceptable under criterion #1. WP:MILHIST and WP:JOURNALS have very clear essays on notability, but WP:PORN doesn't, which leads to contested PRODs and heavily disputed AFDs. clpo13(talk) 20:11, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

The way that I've viewed the PORNBIO standard for quite some time is that an award win has to be from "a well-known" adult industry award ceremony in a "significant industry award" category. Not all award ceremonies or specific award categories are going to meet this kind of standard. In terms of being "featured multiple times in notable mainstream media", a subject must have been featured (not simply made a brief appearance in) more than once (which is merely what multiple means - more than one) in any kind of mainstream media that has a Wkipedia article (which makes it notable) written about it.
My understanding is that (at some date long ago) there was some kind of listing about what specific award ceremonies were considered to be "well-known" enough to be included in this guideline, but that consensus never lasted over the long run. Basically, the PORNBIO standard is molded in large part after the ANYBIO standard, which isn't specific at all either. Guy1890 (talk) 03:49, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

BIO1E and highly significant events

In the second paragraph at WP:BIO1E, the assassination that led to the start of World War I is given as an example (and the only example) of a "highly significant" event. My instinct is to be guided by that example, to ask the question: "Is the event covered in (or reasonably expected to be covered in) history books?" Others prefer to use a lower bar, especially for more recent events, that requires only extensive RS coverage and a subjective assessment of the event's impact. They would include events that very likely will not be covered in history books. Which approach better reflects the community consensus here?

In my opinion, if the example is to be largely ignored, it should be removed as misleading. Or, more language should be added to clarify this point. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Zero response after one week, so now at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Clarification of BIO1E. Please participate there. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:09, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

People with buildings named after them?

I recently moved a mainspace article to AfC, Draft:Arthur M. Pico. At first glance the man doesn't seem to be outwardly notable, however one of the claims of notability on the talk page was that he had a public school named after him.

Would this count towards notability? Offhand I think that it should since it's fairly rare that schools are named after completely random people that don't impact their community. I don't think that it should count towards complete notability, but maybe it could count towards partial notability? I'm asking this on behalf of Markspico, who is willing to improve the article (hence why I moved it). There's likely a COI and I've already warned him about that. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:13, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

but wouldn't such a person have enough coverage to meet WP:ANYBIO (as you said above "it's fairly rare that schools are named after completely random people that don't impact their community")? Also, could this become a precedent so that in the future an editor asks that, for example, named hospital wings, gym halls, art galleries also count towards someones notability? Coolabahapple (talk) 17:34, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
In the United States schools are sometimes named as memorials for people who aren't particularly notable, but have some connection to the community. For example, Craig Williams Elementary School in Los Angeles is named for a former student who died in the Vietnam War at 21 years old; I.S. 72 in New York is named for Police Officer Rocco Laurie who was killed by the Black Liberation Army; and a school in Virginia is named after another police officer who died in a motorcycle crash. Pburka (talk) 18:56, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Sure it counts toward notability.  Notability is evidence that a topic has received the attention of the world at large over a period of time.  Named buildings have the same property as publications stored in a library, in that they continue to attract attention over time, so it is an uphill battle to claim that such a topic is not notable.  However, notability is just a guideline, and articles require the sources to write a verifiable, NPOV article.  Further, this looks like an issue related to WP:BLP1E, which says that we prefer to cover the event rather than the individual.  Why would we want a biography if the only relevant part of the biography is to say that the school was named after them?  So the notability of the building becomes a factor.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

We really need a sentence/paragraph/section on interviews

Interviews have been discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2013#clarifying_that_interviews_with_people_about_themselves_or_their_creations_counts_towards_their_notability, Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2010#Interviews_as_evidence_of_notability, and Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2014#Okay_-_what.27s_the_official_word_on_interviews.3F. I think that Wikipedia:Interviews summarizes the current consensus. What is particularly useful for us is Wikipedia:Interviews#Notability. Editors who come to WP:NBIO currently get no help at all, no hint, no link to that page, or anything about whether interviews are notable or not. As the linked archival discussions shows, this is a recurring question. Even a short sentence like "Interviews may, but do not have, cont for notability, see Wikipedia:Interviews for details" would help a lot by at least telling those interested that the community has given some thought to it before. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:36, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

  • No, this essay confuses WP:N with WP:GNG, and IMO mishandles WP:GNG.  Policy exists at .  I don't think that interviews are that hard to understand, but I don't seem to have anything to add to what I said in Archive 2013 linked above:

Overview  An independent interviewer represents the "world at large" giving attention to the topic, and as such, interviews directly contribute to wp:notability.  The material provided to the interview by the interviewer and the publication is secondary.  The material provided by the interviewee may be primary, if the interviewee is speaking about his own life, or may be secondary, if the interviewee is recognized as an expert on the topic being reported.  Back to wp:notability, interviews show a range of attention being given to the topic and should be weighted accordingly.  Elements of interviews include selecting the topic, contacting the topic, preparation of questions, and writing supplemental material such as a bio.  I saw one interview in which a topic approached a niche magazine and succeeded in getting an interview published, which is marginal and only barely more than self published.  At the other end are interviews that show a depth of preparation, such as those that include a bio.

Unscintillating (talk) 17:06, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't feel prepared to weigh in on whether that essay follows policy, but as someone relatively new (<500 edits), I'll say that I've already seen a lot of conflicting comments at AfD about if and when any part of interviews counts as a secondary source for notability, and I hadn't, prior to this thread, been able to find a clear answer. It'd be great if that were easier to come by (and perhaps something a little more fleshed out than "depending on context"--i.e. what aspects of context should be considered?) Innisfree987 (talk) 20:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Ok, I took a turn at editing the essay by merging the notability section with the material above.  Unscintillating (talk) 05:10, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:CREATIVE and the "well-known or significant" work clause: clarification request

I came here as a result of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Julie_Hamill, which was an eye-opener for me. I nominated but after discussion I see that either my understanding of the guideline is faulty, or the guideline itself is unclear. The nomination is still ongoing, but it is probable to end up keeping given that I "withdrew" and the delete !votes are not extremely strong arguments.

The question, put bluntly, is the following: if a work of art (broadly construed, including non-fiction books) is notable, does it make its author presumably notable under WP:CREATIVE #3?

In my mind, the answer was "obviously no", but if we go by the current wording in its plain meaning the answer is yes. If a work of art is notable, it is "well-known or significant"; and to be notable, it has to have been "the subject of an independent book or feature-length film or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews".

Note also that the footnote just behind that line was added by User:Xender Lourdes during the AfD. I think it provides the necessary clarification if their understanding of the policy is correct, but it is not really part of a long history of interpretation of the guideline (so please, don't tell me I should have read the footnote before asking). On the other hand, if the answer is a clear no, or if none really knows, it is probably worth an RfC to see the community consensus on that.

TigraanClick here to contact me 19:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Comment As I said in the AfD, it seems fairly clear to me that the current guideline makes such a person "likely" notable--but whether that's what the policy should be, I'm not ready to say. Instinctively, I think not everyone who has a noted book becomes a noted author--but when I try to think of examples, I wonder if imposing different strictures about specific author notice, distinct from book notice, might wrongly exclude people who are note-worthy because of their creations, not because of fame. (An allowance we make for researchers, for instance.) Or put differently, I wonder if biographies of authors of important books (even if just one book) is simply something an encyclopedia should have, even if there hasn't been much notice about the author. (Obviously you'd need enough for a verifiable article but typically that's a lower standard than notability.) In any case would be interested to hear others' views. Innisfree987 (talk) 22:58, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
  • "If a work of art is notable, it is 'well-known or significant'". I don't know that's actually true always. Well-known or significant is often seen at AfD to be at least a slightly higher standard than just notable enough for a Wikipedia article. I've also personally never seen the reverse be true...something that doesn't have its own Wikipedia article being considered well-known and/or significant. I know that there was recently a footnote of some kind added to "Creative professionals #3" that says otherwise, but I don't agree with that at all & it didn't appear to have been discussed here prior to its recent addition.
"The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work" is very similar wording to ANYBIO wording: "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field."
I also personally think that the idea that "notability is not inherited" flies in the face of many of our established notability guidelines ("four of the notability guidelines, for creative professions, books, films and music, do allow for inherited notability in certain circumstances"), but that's a larger issue for sure. Guy1890 (talk) 03:53, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
About the footnote addition, well, here is a good opportunity to discuss it. Well-known or significant is often seen at AfD to be at least a slightly higher standard than just notable (...) - precisely my thoughts, but if it is so, it would not hurt to write it down.
About WP:INHERITED, that is kind of a gray area. Of course, not every poem of a notable poet is notable - actually, it is likely that a large part of their younger works are artistically and historically uninteresting. But a poet that made a notable poem does not fall under "inherited" immediately - or else, pretty much no single creative person is notable ever, since they are famous because of their creative contributions. TigraanClick here to contact me 08:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Still agnostic on what the best solution is but yes I think a clarification is definitely in order, and might help this WP:INHERITED issue as well as the WP:CREATIVE #3 one. "Under certain circumstances" doesn't offer much to go on for when notability is meant to be "inherited".
In terms of what that would look like. If "well-known" and "significant" should be higher standards than "notable", can I ask how folks would envision defining those terms (or the distinction among those terms)? Innisfree987 (talk) 15:08, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Innisfree987, I think WP:CREATIVE #4c is a good test for that. See below for a proposed wording. TigraanClick here to contact me 17:03, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
"If 'well-known' and 'significant' should be higher standards than 'notable', can I ask how folks would envision defining those terms (or the distinction among those terms)?" In the PORNBIO standard ("Has won a well-known and significant industry award"), I've never seen an award ceremony that doesn't already have it's own Wikipedia article satisfy the "well-known and significant" standard. I routinely interpret that standard to mean that a particular award ceremony must be "well-known" enough (at least within the adult film industry) and that the specific award category in question must be "significant" (or basically be a major award) enough to meet the PORNBIO standard. In other words, not all award ceremonies or specific award categories meet the PORNBIO standard at AfD. Again, the PORNBIO standard is modeled off of ANYBIO ("The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor") standard, but PORNBIO is basically a higher standard than ANYBIO for several reasons.
I would note that the standard under scrutiny here says "significant or well-known" (emphasis mine) though instead of significant and well-known. Guy1890 (talk) 20:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
I too share the sense it's worthwhile to have community discussion of the added footnote but I want to emphasize that a book not (yet) having a Wikipedia page is no indication on whether it's significant or well-known. We know there's WP:BIAS in what has and hasn't been written about in Wikipedia so far, plus standards like notability inhere in subjects rather than in their entries WP:ARTN, etc. Maybe all the more reason to clarify the standard, lest we resort to unreliable ones for lack of anything firmer. Innisfree987 (talk) 15:36, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  • "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list," and "Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things such as fame, importance, or popularity..." (I've taken the words from the general notability guideline.)
First the question of what is well known. You have to be clear of the perceptive with which one is considering wp:creative. For example, while you may be a well known youtube video contributor (a piece of work, if you may), you need not be deemed to have made a significant contribution until reliable sources have covered your work. CREATIVE, by demanding coverage in reliable sources, protects us from having such well known youtube stars. Do you think Eva Gutowski is well known? She is a rage amongst a significant majority. Yet, the only way she can claim notability is if her coverage supports her credentials, which it does: Eva Gutowski. So the three questions and answers I put forward for your clarification are as follows:
  1. Is well known a higher requirement than notable? Not necessarily, as shown above, and not in a majority of cases.
  2. Can a work be well known and still not be covered by reliable source? Yes, quite possible.
  3. Can a work covered by multiple reliable sources independent of the subject be considered not well known? I leave the answer to your perspective.
In summary, in my view, notability is a higher achievement than well known. Creative mentions that the well known work has to be the subject of "multiple independent periodical articles or reviews". But there is no mention of the significance of coverage, allowing much leeway. WP:Creative by its very basis is supposed to be a lower requirement than GNG (thus, to place well known as being a higher requirement than GNG goes against the reason Creative exists). The reason WP:Creative exists is to ensure that in cases where an individual has created work that may be well known (a lower standard generally than notability), and if that work has been the subject of multiple reliable sources, there is a significant probability that the individual in the future may qualify on GNG because they may be covered in the future by multiple reliable sources, or that such in-depth reliable sources may currently exist and have simply not been searched by editors. In my view, in the case of an author, if a book is deemed notable, then there should be encouragement provided to editors to develop the biography of the author – that I believe is why Author exists as a guideline, while inherit, not inherit exist as essays.
In plain reading, Author should perhaps be read as: "If you personally believe the work is well-known or significant, please first ensure the work has been the subject of a few reliable sources before you include the author's biography. Alternatively, if the work is already notable or deemed to be notable by editors as per Wikipedia's guidelines, sure, go ahead!" This sounds tad frivolous but this may perhaps summarise the specific subpoint of the guideline. Lourdes 06:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  • This strikes me as persuasively argued and, I'm inclined to think, in Wikipedia's best interest. I think the idea WP:CREATIVE is intentionally a lower standard than WP:BASIC is a good principle, and I'm worried that what could be lost in knowledge from discouraging some such entries is more valuable than what would be gained through raising the standard of...shall we call it rigor? Exclusivity? That said I'm still interested to hear someone say more concretely what it would look like to raise the bar, maybe my fears about worthwhile entries being lost would be assuaged. Innisfree987 (talk) 15:57, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  • When contemplating lowering or relaxing notability standards, particularly where subjects have a financial interest like CREATIVE, please remember that Wikipedia is often used as a vehicle for promotion and SEO. Idealism I'd fine but Wikipedia is free advertising and many, many people target it for such. JbhTalk 16:13, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
As I understand it, no one's suggesting the standard be lowered; on the contrary the suggestion is that maybe the standard should be raised. Innisfree987 (talk) 16:57, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Reflecting on this further. I really don't think we should be taking that into account! To me the question is properly, is an entry worthy of notice for this encyclopedia? and not, what were the motives behind the initial creation of the entry? I understand WP:PROMOTION to be specifically addressed to "content" and WP:NPOV concerns, not WP:NOTABILITY, so and only WP:NOTABILITY so far as rejecting promotional sources as unreliable is concerned, not for discounting a subject if reliable sources also exist. So though there may be bad actors in creating articles, that should not affect judgment of subjects, per WP:ARTN. Innisfree987 (talk) 18:27, 12 July 2016 (UTC) (Correction!) Innisfree987 (talk) 18:50, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok, so none seems to really know what "well-known or significant" means. Maybe someone with more experience will come later? In any case, here is a draft of the two (opposite) options for clarification I can imagine.

  • The "low bar" option:
    3.The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. A work that is notable enough to warrant a stand-alone article is presumed to meet this criteria.
  • The "high bar" option, involving a rewrite of WP:CREATIVE #4 as well:
    3.The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. In particular, if a person has created or played a major role in co-creating at least two separately notable works, he or she is presumed to be notable.
4.The person's work (or works) The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a work or body of work that either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.

The first one looks reasonably clear to me (even though I tend to oppose the idea, as I already wrote), but i am not sure about the second one. The idea is to shift notability resting on a single work to (4) with is a higher threshold than simple notability, but it may just shift the debate about that threshold from (3) to (4c). There is also the option to just go with Lourdes' footnote, which goes somewhat in the same direction as the "low bar" option but leaves more leeway to editors (which is not necessarily a bad thing). TigraanClick here to contact me 17:03, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Definitly not the "low bar". I am not even all that keen on the high bar tying to wiki-notable works. For instance books with two reviews, often in regional papers or similar publications, are considered wiki-notable. If we are tying to wiki-notable works I would like to see three or more works, that shows a pattern of producing notable works. Those who have produced less than three wiki-notable works but rather a major work noted by many critics will likely be able to pass on GNG alone. JbhTalk 17:27, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Would the "high bar", with the removal of "in particular..." be OK for you? (FWIW, I think two wiki-notable would solve 99.9% of the problems at AfD, so it is still a huge step.)
This will need a proper RfC anyways, since your opinion is (I suppose) not shared by Lourdes and Innisfree987, but let's put a bit of effort into drafting this. TigraanClick here to contact me 17:40, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
To clarify my view at least partly: I'm persuaded by Lourdes' argument for why WP:CREATIVE should be a looser standard than WP:BASIC, and for that reason, I'd opposed JBH's suggestion we essentially insist authors of one or two wiki-notable works pass BASIC. To me though that doesn't necessarily preclude stiffening the CREATIVE test a bit. Still thinking through what I make of other options for doing so (would def welcome more folks weighing in). Innisfree987 (talk) 19:11, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  • No SNGs should be looser than GNG they all simply create a "reputable presumption" that there are likely enough sources to pass GNG. Nothing guarentees an article. Until a creative professional has "made a mark" they should, indeed, be judged under BASIC/ANYBIO/GNG. CREATIVE should be identifying those individuals who are exceptional in their field.

    As to the wording, on closer reading I think the struck words including "...multiple independent reviews..." should stay. The part following "in particular..." could be reworded as an example such as "...?2(3)? 'wiki-notable' would be likely to pass...". Not sure how to word it - just changing the wording from prescriptive "will pass" to descriptive "this is an example of something likely to pass". JbhTalk 00:41, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

  • The idea that any of the SNGs are "a lower standard than WP:BASIC" is, I think, going to come as a surprise to many at AfD and/or DRV, and it will also play right into the hands of those that (wrongly IMO) think that all of the SNGs are a lower standard than GNG. Guy1890 (talk) 20:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Setting aside whose hands this plays into (the point is a good standard, right, not who wins?), it did occur to me that maybe rather than higher or lower, it'd be better to think about what alternative standard this SNG represents. And there I do continue to think there should be a meaningful alternative guideline evaluating creatives as such: I'm not satisfied that requiring a "pattern" of notable works (i.e. three) and then bouncing everyone with only one or two over to WP:BASIC really provides an adequate route in to everyone who's worthy of notice for creative output rather than fame. Innisfree987 (talk) 21:03, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  • To add to the hopper: I've just noticed that WP:BIO does explicitly equate notable and significant, citing in the first paragraph two dictionary definitions, one of which actually says that "worthy of notice" means "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded." That seems like a pretty big applecart to upset--not to mention that brainstorming doesn't seem to have produced a consensus option even among just the five editors who've weighed in here--so I'm pretty inclined to say leaving Lourdes's footnote or something like it is the best solution. My reasons:
  1. I don't believe it loosens the standard, just puts text in on what's said explicitly elsewhere.
  2. It would save time arguing the point at AfD.
  3. It preserves a meaningful alternative to notability on the basis of creative output rather than fame.
All that said, it's not clear to me why it wouldn't be a worthwhile to gather consensus about that, or not as the case may be, but my experience with the RfC process is limited to I suppose I defer to others on that front. Innisfree987 (talk) 22:19, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Yep, and things like most of NSPORTS esp NCRICKET are best describesd as abominations which resulted when "just making explicit what is already happening at AfD" is then taken to an extreme, people who would have never been considered before the SNG and who will never pass GNG start having articles written "because the SNG says they are notable". This is how we get tens of thousands of cruft articles defended by hordes of editors who think the SNG for their topic should override GNG. There are many of these SNGs but, properly applied an SNG 'describes the characteristics of a subject that is likely to have enough sources to be covered by GNG even if they can not be found online'. The utility of these decrease both subjects become more recent and more archival material is digitized and while they may once have been useful and creation or modification of an SNG needs to look at what type of articles will result from the loosest application of the most literal reading of the SNG. So I would not support changes in wording or even footnotes until there is a solid understanding of how it will open things up at the least notable end particularly for subjects who would be covered in recent Western media (the ones most susceptible to PROMO/PR). In this case not everyone who gets a couple of reviews of their work, i.e. what is required to get the workan article, should get a biography as well. JbhTalk 23:12, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
User:Jbhunley can you point me to where that quote's drawn from? The one about 'describes the characteristics of a subject..." ? From your phrasing it sounds like you're suggesting that's been set down as policy but I couldn't immediately find where. Thanks. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
It is not a quote it is a paraphrase, but "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included."(emp. mine) From Notability:People or A topic is presumed...if...the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right...This is not a guarantee that a topic will necessarily be handled as a separate, stand-alone page. (emp. mine) From WP:N and similar things throughout different SNGs make it, very clear - see WP:NRV/WP:NPOSSIBLE also. Including an article is always subject to editorial discretion and consensus. The problem with making "bright lines" for notability is it takes away that discression and 1)leads to perma-stubs becuase there is not actually enough coverage out there to write an article with verifiable information 2) it can be manipulated by PR/PROMO/SEO 3) it encourages cruft becuase can turns into must. JbhTalk 02:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Sticking to that first part: I don't see at all how the two sections you now quote can be paraphrased as "an SNG 'describes the characteristics of a subject that is likely to have enough sources to be covered by GNG even if they can not be found online.'" They really don't say anything of the kind, e.g. no reference at all to availability of online sources. It's one thing to argue that's what SNGs should do, but I'm not seeing anything to support the claim that that's current policy. Perhaps you should bring up the SNG issue for community discussion separately, if you think that analysis ought to be policy. Innisfree987 (talk) 04:44, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Then I would be interested in your paraphrase/interpratation of the interaction of GNG/Sourcing and SNGs. Possibly we are talking past each other. There is a lot of policy interaction, unwritten consensus in how things are applied at AfD as well as the interaction of two nearly irreconcilable 'world views' of Wikipedia content exlepified by the extremes of meta:Inclusionism/meta:Deletionism.

My choice of words above is how I understand and apply Wikipidia's PAGs with respect to content to explain my position re any changes to the SNGs without a broad consensus. You may have a different understanding and it may or may not change as you participate in more AfDs, I know mine has and continues to. JbhTalk 12:00, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarification. My personal albeit still-forming view on the relationship of SNGs to GNGs is, as I say above, that some subjects merit an alternative route into Wikipedia owing to say, creative output rather than fame, and thus I wouldn't like to see SNGs articulated in terms of meeting GNG. All the same it does seem very clear there are opposing views on this and yes I am learning, so I was honestly trying to understand which are individual viewpoints and which spelled-out, agreed-upon community consensus (i.e. if it's clearly established somewhere that my view is wrong). I misunderstood your the first comment--because it was marked off with single quotation marks, I thought you were saying it was already written out that way. Thanks for straightening me out. My two cents, I wouldn't be unhappy at all to have a consensus statement clarifying this (whether I am right or wrong!), but I'm sure you know more about where the debate stands at present and if there's any use to taking it to RfC or if it would just yield a sharply divided result. Innisfree987 (talk) 18:58, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
I set it off with single quotes because it is a paraphrase of something which is often articulated by others in the same or a similar manner. If you take a look at Why we have notability requirements in the Notability policy it may help a bit - it demonstrated how the content policies interact.

You will also note that "presumed" is used a lot in the guidelines and that in its first mention it is wiki-linked to rebuttable presumption. What has happened in a lot of areas (Sports, Roads and Porn start in particular) is a large group of editors have, shall we say fixated, on making pages for everything in the topic area and make it impossible to delete pages regardless of whether. objectively and by policy, they should be handled in other ways - say lists, as sub-sections of a broader topic or not at all. Sort of local consensus gone wild, but as Wikipedia is consensus driven that is how things are.

The problem with "alternate paths" is they end up with pages about topics which we have no sources to base an article on or end up using information from primary, non-independent or self published/PR sources. That ends up violating WP:NPOV, WP:V and if about a living person possibly WP:BLP. It all comes down to having reliable sources to base an article on - no sources, no article.

You may want to look at the recent Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Peddie (author) for an interesting borderline case. In that case there were not many sources and little chance of the article ever growing. It closed keep mainly because of the age of potential sources, a similar author from to late 20th-21st century would almost certainly have been deleted. Really the best thing to do is read through lots of AfD's and vote. Always make sure to articulate a reason and policy basis for your !vote. You can keep track of how well your views line up with consensus using this tool (You are definitly off to a good start!) JbhTalk 22:48, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

as the nominator of the abovementioned afd, i was tempted to withdraw soon after the second relist but decided to let it finish 'naturally' as it turned into such an interesting discussion.:) Coolabahapple (talk) 16:02, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't have much to add that wouldn't largely repeat what I've already said but thanks for these links, useful reading! Innisfree987 (talk) 18:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Leaders in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other religious organizations

This mainly has come about because of the current deletion discussion on Octaviano Tenorio. The article includes sources not at all connected with the subject that cover him in a way that presumes he is notable because of his office in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church has over 15 million members worldwide. The General Authorities and General Officers of the Church has worldwide leadership responsibility. I think this should create a presumed notability. The facts of the matter is that we have near consensus agreement that Catholic bishops are notable. This is often disputed by the originator of the deletion attempt against Tenorio, who has nominated a very high number of LDS leader articles for deletion. However he has never gone after any article on a Catholic bishop, even though many are sourced to a Catholic site that is no better than Grandpa Bill's GA pages, and maybe not at that level. Catholic bishops lead diocese that range is size greatly, but many have hundreds of thousands and a few have millions of Catholics. LDS area presidency members lead the Church in areas that have hundreds of thousands of members in most cases. However I have come to accept that non-general authorities who were area presidency members are not notable for that. This needs to be addressed in a wide manner. Otherwise we will see a continuation of repeat nominations where the second overturns the first, not because of new evidence, but because of much lower participation at the second discussion. I wish I knew a good way to notify this discussion to generate widespread coverage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnpacklambert (talk • contribs)

  • Oppose: First off, JPL is overly personalizing this discussion. Secondly, he's missing the reason why this shouldn't be adopted: because most general authorities do not have extensive coverage independent of the LDS Church. Most general authority articles are only sourced from articles on LDS-affiliated websites and magazine articles. If we were talking about business execs sourced only with materials affiliated with the companies they work for, they would summarily be deleted. This actually happens in discussions with high participation (JPL's assessment of outcomes is off, as only he and one other user consistently vote "keep" in most of these general authority discussion; most other users accept the rationale that non-LDS sources are required for these articles). Also, the way to get is to slap a request for comment on this and/or mention it at the appropriate pump. pbp 17:52, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree with PBP. If there are sufficient independent and reliable references to sustain an article about this individual, show that, and the discussion is over. If there aren't, we shouldn't have that article. It's really that simple. References from the individual's own organization are not independent, just like if a corporation wrote about its employee. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:26, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • If the subject fails WP:GNG due to lack of "significant coverage independent of the subject", then that's what Wikipedia goes by, not the size of the congregation. In a similar manner, not every "regional vice president" in a corporation is notable. The best way to confirm notability is to add RS citations to the article. I've looked at the Octaviano Tenorio article, and this appears to be a non-notable individual for lack of coverage. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Once you start carving out exceptions to WP:GNG then the argument becomes "Since you made an exception for X you now have to make room for Y as well" and, pretty soon, WikiP is just a collection of WP:INDISCRIMINATE info. MarnetteD|Talk 20:42, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The proposer Johnpacklambert (JPL) has launched this discussion solely to try to rescue an article which he created from an AFD where he doesn't even have the decency to acknowledge himself as creator. Very shoddy conduct.
JPL confuses the concept of "notability" with the concept of "importance". This isn't complicated, so lemme explain:
Wikipedia is a tertiary publication. That means that it is based on secondary coverage in independent reliable sources. per WP:NOR, we don't do original research of primary sources; we summarise the scholarship of others who have done that research (secondary sources). If those secondary sources do not exist for a topic, then there is no basis for an article which meets Wikipedia's basic criteria for content.
It is troubling that JPL, who has been editing for ten years, still fails to understand this very basic principle. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:48, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose Johnpacklambert needs to realize that religious figures are nothing special when it comes to Wikipedia and are not exempt from the independent coverage clause. I agree with BrownHairedGirl - shoddy conduct. When anyone edits Wikipedia, Wikipedia's goals and policies come first, not their allegiance to outside organizations. --NeilN talk to me 21:01, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
    • An example showing why JPL's "15 million people" is a red herring: Apple's iPhone, which completely reshaped an entire industry, uses Gorilla Glass. The glass has been used in over a billion mobile devices. So very probably it has a larger worldwide impact than the LDS Church. Now, if Corning puts out a newsletter highlighting one of the engineers who worked on the glass, are we going to have an article on them? I think not. Not even if Apple did the same thing, with a supplier newsletter. --NeilN talk to me 21:29, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose We require independent reliable sources to demonstrate notability - that is just how it works. There is no difference between a religious figure and a corporate exec and they should be judged accordingly. JbhTalk 23:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Sheesh, while I can see the downsides to this proposal, let's not pile on. It's a perfectly reasonable proposal. Calling it "shoddy conduct" etc. is shameful and un-Wkipedian and you all have my permission to quiet down now before you dig yourselves in any deeper.
For starters, we have many supplements to WP:BIO for many walks of life. Some of those are supposed to be supplemental to WP:GNG/WP:BIO but often aren't treated this way, while some flat-out supersede WP:GNG.
For instance, if you played in four cricket matches in the 18th century you are "entitled" to an article, notwithstanding that absolutely nothing else is known about you and even your first name is lost to history. Per WP:ATHLETE. If you ever served in theNew Hampshire General Court you are "entitled" to an article, even though it's an unpaid part-time job largely filled by retirees, and about 1 of every 3,000 New Hampshirites is serving at any given time. Per WP:POLITICIAN. And so forth.
On the other hand, even if you're a a very accomplished person and major player on the world stage, but behind the scenes, such that even though there's plenty of material for an article but only in non-independent (but reliable and notable) sources and the general-readership press has taken scant notice of your influence and accomplishments, you're out. Unless you fit under certain specified critera. Fellow of the IEEE? You're in. One of the 100 leaders of a major world religion? You're out.
Gee I wonder if that has anything to do with bias and the Wikipedia editor demographic.
But fine. There are valid and cogent reasons for believing that WP:BIO is complete and perfect, I suppose. There are valid and cogent reasons for believing that WP:BIO could benefit from occasional tending and review, is all I'm saying. Let's not attack people who make valid and useful suggestions. That's not who we are. Herostratus (talk) 00:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Reply @Herostratus: calm down. If you read what I actually wrote, my description of JPL's conduct as shoddy referred explicitly to his failure to declare either here or at AFD that he was the creator of the article which prompted him to propose a policy change, and to his failure to understand the basis of WP:GNG. That is not a "pile-on"; it is a rebuke to an editor who has failed both to uphold the transparency we expect of editors, and to study a long-standing policy before proposing an amendment to it. Your words here are over-the-top, but you have gone much further elsewhere in making unfounded charges of bias against me, and I urge you to back off.
As you would know if you had followed other similar discussions over the years, I have repeatedly opposed the creation of exceptions to GNG, and it is shameful of you to try to attribute the opposition here to some sort of bias against religion. Go read WP:AGF, and take it to heart.
I agree that some of of the other topic-specific notability guidelines are problematic, not just in substance but in usage. But that's no reason to create another one; it's a reason to fix the others, and I would happily work with any editor who wants to help build a consensus to roll them back.
One of the issues here is that I see nothing in what Herostatratus writes that conveys to me an understanding of why we have the other topic-specific notability guidelines. The aim of them is not to create some sort of exemption to GNG, but de-clutter AFD by identifying types of article where we can presume with a reasonable degree of reliability that reliable, independent secondary sources will exist, even if an article has been created without them. That presumption noted at WP:GNG to be disprovable; if an editor can show that searches of a suitably wide range of reliable sources draw blanks, then there should not be a standalone article on that topic.
I am not very familiar with sports biographies. Not my area of interest. But what is my area of interest in the political history of Ireland and Britain, where most of my contributions have been made. Most of my early editing consisted of creating stub articles on Irish and British parliamentarians (plus associated lists and categories), using the limited sources I then had. Many of those stubs were short: born, failed election here, elected there, defeated, died. GNG definitely not established, but WP:POLITICIAN applied.
But some years ago I got access to the archives of The Times newspaper. Only one national newspaper out of dozens, but using it I was able to create substantial biogs on many Members of Parliament MPs who would otherwise have been stubs. Then I got access to the History of Parliament and the British Newspaper Archive, whose massive resources have allowed me to create substantive articles which clearly meet GNG on MPs going back to the early 19th century. So I am satisfied that for members of the Parliaments in Britain and Ireland since ~1800, WP:POLITICIAN is well-justified. The sources exist, and GNG will be established whenever an editor has the energy, inclination and access to use them. Before that, newspapers are rarer; but the politicians were invariably men of property of other power, whose public office arose from a prominence which gained them lots of coverage elsewhere.
I have never studied the New Hampshire General Court, but I note that it is in a state which has (like most of New England) a long history of fine local newspapers with dutiful coverage of public office-holders. So I wouldn't rush to the assumption that WP:POLITICIAN is misplaced there.
It may indeed be true that some of the specific notability guidelines are too broad; without specific evidence, I dunno. And I do agree that at AFD, too many editors are inclined to take the specific notability guidelines as some sort of guarantee of notability, rather than a disprovable assumption. Work is needed there.
But to return to these religious leaders, I don't see any of the supporters of this proposal even trying to make a plausible case for a presumption of notability. I don't see JPL or Herostratus or Montanabw offering the slightest shred of evidence that religious leaders are a set of people for whom independent, reliable secondary sources can be reasonably presumed to exist. In fact, the main thrust of their argument appears to be that these independent, reliable secondary sources do not exist. So whatever their intention, the effect of their position is that en.wp should create an inclusion loophole for a class of article which they themselves assert cannot be properly sourced.
I urge them to rethink. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:18, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose per BrownHairedGirl. Herostratus has a point but I think he's arguing for an SNG to exist outside consensus and the use of the word "entitled" is wrong. Subjects aren't entitled to an article about them as if that's some sort of an award. Wikipedia presumes that there are or will be coverage that would confer general notability. An SNG really just halts the AfD process until such sources are found. Yes, NPOL and NATHLETE are great if you're a fan of those fields whereas LDS members don't have an SNG to use. MILPEOPLE is one of my favorite SNGs but I recognize the consensus doesn't like it specifically or SNGs, generally. I also bristle at the concept that an LDS-specific notability should exist parallel to a similar guide for Catholic clergy. Not only is there no real parallel, I wouldn't even call LDS's leadership clergy. A cursory glance shows that religion-centric WikiProjects (excluding Catholicism) on en-wp don't presume notability so I don't think the LDS church ought to be treated differently than Judaism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Islam, and Christianity in general. Finally, let's face the fact that SNGs are driven by consensus or what Herostratus calls "bias and the Wikipedia editor demographic". Yes, the consensus of editors and the consensus of media have biases and that's what drives the train here. All the efforts to remove bias are, in fact, efforts to constrain consensus. I recommend more LDS members edit Wikipedia so they can act in concerted effort as a vocal minority to protect coverage of their subjects. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:07, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Your last sentence could be read as advocating meatpuppetry. Not your intention, I think? --NeilN talk to me 15:22, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
      • @NeilN: I guess my statement was inelegant. I realize per WP:MEAT "recruiting new editors to influence decisions on Wikipedia is prohibited... and that new editors who edit "solely for that purpose" are subject to sanction. Longterm editors not matter how biased can tilt at windmills all day short of WP:NPOV and are not subject to sanction so long as they've "consistently exercised independent judgement". We already have the educated anarcho-libertarian white male technocrat demographic covered. If others would join to further this encyclopedia they could influence consensus just as those populations that become published academics and journalists influence what info gets covered here. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:12, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
        • Both @Chris troutman: and @Herostratus: mention bias. I don't think there's a bias against Mormon leaders; as I've noted elsewhere in this discussion, there may actually be more articles about Mormon leaders then there are about other similarly-sized groups (or different-sized groups if adjusted for size). If there's any kind of bias at all, the bias is with the secondary sources, and therefore is out of Wikipedia's hands. pbp 22:39, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
          • However, we have plenty of well written sources from both the Church News and the Ensign, and passable sources on many from the Deseret News. This is a possible case where the strength of some secondary sources causes a lack of broad sources. One big problem is an unwillingness to recognize how Kellerism clouds and biases religion coverage in much of the press. This has lead to much media coverage of religious figures being coverage of the leftists types that media reporters identify with. If we continue to have uneven guidelines on what are sources, and not consider the actual editorial independence in the production of articles, we will reinforce anti-Mormon biases. In these debates people have taken the issues of ownership too much to heart and ignored the issues of editorial indepedence and oversight.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:04, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
            • @Johnpacklambert: with each comment you make, you undermine your own proposal.
  1. As others have pointed out to you, the reasons for the lack of independent coverage are irrelevant, however unjust you feel them to be. Wikipedia is not here to right great wrongs. What matters is that the required substantial independent coverage does not exist. How many times to do other editors have to explain this to you?
  2. the issue here is not the quality of writing; it is independence of the writer. A journalist employed by a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Mormon Church is not independent of that church.
Before making a proposal such as this, you really should do some reading on basic Wikipedia policies. Your comments about Kellerism and leftism suggest that you are WP:NOTHERE to build a NPOV encyclopedia, but to push an agenda. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:38, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
              • The acceptance of sources tainted by Kellerism, but the refusal to accept sources that have other types of biases, is inherently against Wikipedia being able to be in any way representative of a neutral point of view. The rhetoric of "wholly owned subsidiary" avoids the actual nature of content production. A publication of an institute that is part of a university that is owned by a given denomination should not be automatically disqualified from being considered a reliable source. That is 3 levels of removal from control. It also shows an unwillingess to recognize that publications like the Mormon Studies Review and the BYU Studies Quarterly are written to be academic publications. The mention of Tenorio comes in a book published by Brigham Young University Studies as a publisher in 1995. Due to complicated histories of goals, focus, and naming this should really by thought of as essentially BYU press publishing a book under a different name. This is essentially and academic press publishing a book, and to disqualify it because the school that owns the press is owned by the LDS Church is to disqualify a large number of potential sources because of complex issues. Would you support disqualifying any book published by Andrews University Press or other 7th Day Adventist University Presses from showing the notability of any person who is SDA? Tenorio was a key person in the international expansion of the LDS Church's Family History Program.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
              • @Johnpacklambert: You're totally missing the point that independence of sources aren't something we just drag out for religion. We can't have bands solely sourced by websites created by their members. We can't have a company solely sourced by the institutional history of that company. You're also equating this with a blanket ban on LDS sources. We've never been saying, "ban all LDS sources everywhere", we're saying, "Articles on LDS-related topics must contain both LDS and non-LDS sources". There's a whole lot else wrong with your above comment, but let's stick to that for right now. pbp 13:16, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose, LDS leaders are no more deserving of "presumed notability" than any other religious organisation, a question for the proposer, why haven't you included other large organisations, religious and non-religious, in this proposal? ie. "if an organisation has a membership (defined as ....) of x number than leaders (defined as ...) are presumed notable"? by the way, i would also oppose such a proposal as gng takes precedence. Coolabahapple (talk) 18:02, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't support a special notability guideline for the leaders of any religious organization, in general, particularly living people, I feel that WP:BASIC should be a minimum bar. I realize that's not the case right now in several areas outside of religion (e.g,. athletics, actors) but it remains my preference. --joe deckertalk 00:28, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Support and broaden to other faiths per Herostratus, but noting that whatever consensus is gathered should probably apply to other religious-but-not-Catholic denominations. I find some of the discussion here rather odd (—what does gorilla glass have to do with human beings?) and poorly-reasoned. But first off, there is a presumption of notability in WP:GNG, and the standard is "reliable sources independent of the subject," which means, for example, no self-published pieces, no blogs, etc. Here, I think the question is if the top 100 or so leaders of an organization with millions of members are deemed notable for holding the position, if it is verifiable via sources that are to some extent "in-house" such as the Deseret News -- as the mainstream press is not apt to give internal church politics much coverage (this is true of most Catholic bishops as well, most likely; their promotion to the office is apt to only be covered in the Catholic press and maybe the occasional local newpaper when there is turnover in the Diocese). WP:BASIC states, "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability." Here, the comparison of Catholic bishops to LDS General Authorities is apt; I don't know if any Catholic bishop is deemed notable or if the status has to be Archbishop or even Cardinal, but I do know that nearly every Anglican bishop in history gets their own article, primarily due to the efforts of Ealdgyth. So the question really is simple: At what point to denominational religious leaders meet GNG? Montanabw(talk) 07:35, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Re gorilla glass: You may not agree with what I wrote, but I think my point is clear and spot on. --NeilN talk to me 07:44, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
    • (coughs) I don't create/curate articles for English bishops past 1500, so they aren't Anglican. Catholic bishops they be. I actually think the 1500 or so pre-1500 bishops I have on my watchlist are quite enough and leave the Anglicans for others to worry about. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:49, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- why have WP:GNG if exceptions would be provided for certain groups? In any case, if the notability is presumed (due to certain BIO factors), it still needs to be confirmed through "significant coverage". K.e.coffman (talk) 07:45, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Support' and apply to all religions. WP:GNG explicitly says it is not the only standaard. We have other standards for use in specific circumstances, for which the clearest ones are natural geographic features and WP:PROF. The GNG is the general standard for use if we do not want to make an exception, either for a class of subjects, or for an individual subjects. just a we make the rules, we can make whatever exceptions we please. If you are arguing we should not make a special rule here, there might be good reasons for that, but you can not sensibly argue we cannot make an special rule here, because we can make whatever rules we please. We collectively made the rule GNG; it was not handed down to us by some sort of supreme court or legislature. There is no higher authority in WP for questions of content than the community. We can make any other rules for which there is consensus. And even having made the rules, we can still make exceptions. All guidelines permit exceptions; it's part of the very definition of a guideline that its the usual thing we do, not what we always do. There is a very basic policy about that, IAR, which is one of the foundations of WP.
The advantage of special standards is that they can be exact, and thus reduce controversy and uncertainty. The GNG has some rather subtle phrasing , and the meaning of the words significant coverage in reliable sources that are independentof the subject. is not obvious: there are a great many special considerations in each of them, (the interpretation of "reliable sources" is done at WT:RSN, and consists of a great many many pages of archives.) anda a great many disagreements. In practice, for non-obvious situation where notability is the question, the arguments at AfD are almost always about the interpretation of these phrases. For each of them in many cases, it is easily possible to construct a reasonably good argument in each direction, and people here do exactly that. In many cases we encounter, where we know there is a good argument either way, what people decide to say depends not on some abstract view of their meaning, but on what result one wishes to achieve in that particular situation. Whereas when we have an exact standard, at least those cases which fall under the standard can be deided without dicussion.I very much wish we had many more such standards. It doesn't really matter exactly which articles we include or do not include; it does mater that we have a reasonably consistent separation at a reasonable level. DGG ( talk ) 15:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Whatever DGG's intention, the effect of DGG's proposal is to undermine WP:NPOV and WP:V, which are core policies.
    GNG is an application of NPOV, because it bases inclusion criteria on the objective test of substantial coverage in reliable sources which are independent of the subject. Sure, it's not a neat binary test, and there are plenty of fuzzy areas and borderline cases ... but it is based on a simple objective principle. GNG is also an extension of WP:V's principle: that our content is based on reliable secondary sources. It's not based on primary sources or on what people write about their colleagues, but on secondary scholarship. This is the core of what Wikipedia does: we summarise the existing independent scholarship.
    Whenever we set aside the the GNG test, we do so because this is a type of topic for which GNG can be established if the right research is done. But in this case, even the proposer of this loophole insists that is needed because the independent sources are not there. So this isn't a time-saving proposal for a rebuttable assumption of presumed notability. It is a demand to suspend our most basic content policies for a whole topic area.
    So what exactly is the case for providing automatic inclusion of a swathe of articles on this topic which are inadequately-referenced (as in lacking independent sources)?
    The only cases I see being made here are forms of POV-pushing. There is the the form of POV-pushing that says that if we have an articles ob X we must have them on Y. Again, that's POV-pushing, because the comparator is a POV choice.
    Another form of POV-pushing is that it is unfair that this type of topic lacks independent coverage. Why assume that it's unfair in this case? Why not apply similar exemptions to other types people who lack independent coverage? Take your pick: Rotarians, steelworkers, KKK members, carpet designers, radical feminists, theosophists, flat-earthers, Maoists, bee-keepers, civil engineers, doulahs, or tax-collectors? Choosing any one of these groups for a get-out-of-GNG card would be a blatantly POV choice ... just as the choice of Mormons for a GNG-bypass is blatantly POV. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:07, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose, GNG is the standard in place and there is no reason to carve out an exception here for it will only lead to a "slippy-slope" and pov-pushing. Confirmation of "significant coverage" as K.e. wrote above, by independent WP:RS sources provides notability. Kierzek (talk) 20:05, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Support  As DGG said above, "The advantage of special standards is that they can be exact, and thus reduce controversy and uncertainty."  I'm not sure that LDS needs a new SNG, though, since their religious leaders are judges and international judges are already covered in an SNG.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Internal tv network Awards, awarding contracted Actors,and published in same networks publishing arm/news

Several articles of Philippines Celebrities list too many awards, some from dubious or at least new awarding groups or companies, and internal awards from the same tv networks that hire them. what template should I use? user:Raabbustamante (talk) 13:31, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

The WP:SOFIXIT one. When did we come to the point that people spend time figuring out a template to put on an article rather than hitting edit and fixing the problem? Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

MBE

Beauty pageant RfC

Does a DNB entry prove notability?

Proposal to remove the "Template:Policy-discuss" template

AUTHOR point 3 and derivative works

Propose non-binary-inclusive wording

Addressing the root of the "minor entertainers drowning out other bios" problem

We need specific notability criteria for businesspeople

Notability criteria for models?

Additional criteria section

Beauty pageant notability -- reup

Uebert Angel

Proposed Change to PORNBIO

Dame Daniels

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