Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 19

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

I suggest the following phrasing for this section:

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are not usually acceptable as sources.

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by a well-known expert on the topic of the article whose work has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: information in self-published sources has not been subject to independent fact checking, and may be less reliable than professional-published work by the same author. For this reason, it is usually necessary to provide a prose attribution for material sourced to self-published works. Self-published works that make controversial claims are not usually considered reliable sources.

Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP.

This seems to me to be a reasonable start. It relaxes the requirements on the writer of the source to be a professional researcher, now only requiring them to be a "well-known expert" (i.e., it must be documented somewhere reliable that they are an expert on the subject), but requiring them to have been published on the same topic by a reliable source (rather than merely having been published as is in the current text). It also requires a prose attribution and suggests that controversial claims should not be sourced from self published works, both of which should help reduce the problems of undue weight being placed on contentious sources.

Any comments on this suggestion? JulesH 14:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. The word "expert" is good, especially "expert" and "same topic" and "reliable source" all mentioned together. --Aude (talk) 14:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

"whose work in the relevant field [or in the field in question] has previously been published..." I'd also suggest dropping "well-known" for "established". Marskell 14:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd also leave in "if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." Another formulation I've thought of previously "editors should ask themselves if the person needs to self-publish because reliable publishers would reject the material" or some such thing. Marskell 14:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

"Scholarly or non-scholarly" - I see no reason to say this. It is likely to encourage yet more use of dubious sources, which we have a problem with already. If it's either/or, then let's not mention it at all. Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

Many of the people involved in this discussion have done excellent work writing articles, with many featured articles, though covering different topic areas with different issues. I haven't followed SlimVirgin's articles closely, so not familiar with what problems she has had with WP:RS and guidelines/policies on self-published sources. I'm more familiar with what Tim Vickers has worked on, the climate/global warming articles that Raymond has worked on, and some of the work done by Marskell. Reliable sources definitely follows a continuum, from scholarly peer reviewed works (should generally be expected on science articles), to reputable journalists and news media outlets, to some other works (e.g. blogs or other material published by known experts in a field; for biographies and history articles, books and material written by people involved in the event likely would be good sources, etc.) But then we have the arbcom case on pseudosciences that should also guide us. What other examples and situations do people have? --Aude (talk) 14:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• For social sciences, I still think scholarly peer reviewed material should be preferred. For topics like criminology, there is scientific rigor in studying topics like gun violence that help elevate the article above a political debate - for political aspects of the topic we have the article on gun politics. The topic also is looked at from a public health/epidemiology standpoint, with scientific rigor. There may be room for some exceptions to scholarly sources, but it is wise to stay above politics with such articles. --Aude (talk) 14:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• • On medical topics, obviously, peer-reviewed journal articles are generally the best source of information. Review articles or textbooks are best, because they're secondary sources, generally written by recognized experts, and draw conclusions (thus avoiding problems with synthesizing primary sources ourselves). Not all peer-reviewed material is created equal - after all, both the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of Scientific Exploration claim to be peer-reviewed - but it's a start. There are far too many instances of self-published health-related websites being cited as equivalently reliable sources of medical information, being given equal weight, and being used to challenge or "rebut" accepted medical consensus. WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE are already nearly completely disregarded on many medical topics. Giving "non-scholarly" sources essentially equivalent weight, in this sub-area, will worsen the problem. MastCell ^Talk 15:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• • • Perhaps there should be a requirement not to use self-published sources where they are contradicted by professionally published sources? Would this help with this issue? JulesH 15:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• For science articles, current scientific data, hypotheses and theories should be taken from peer-reviewed publications such as scholarly reviews and research papers. General information on the background of a topic can come from textbooks, but these should not be used to support specific arguments if these points of view conflict with the peer-reviewed literature. For example, the standard undergraduate biochemistry textbook written by Stryer is wrong when it classifies ribozymes as enzymes, a mistake which has caused much discussion on at Talk:Enzyme#Ribozymes. The history of scientific ideas is usually covered in books by historians. The only place where a significant amount of non-academic sources is appropriate would be in discussing people's opinions about science, for example in the Green Movement. Tim Vickers 15:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• In regards to the other side of the spectrum where there are sources we may be sometimes in danger of excluding, are the societies that are organized around different authors or types of literature which publish, sometimes self-publish, quality material. The material can range from 8-volume books, to monthly or quarterly journals, to websites. Although I have not used these sources to write a Wikipedia article, I have relied research from such sites for misc. stuff at Wikisource. One extreme example the Kipling Society which in the process of developing a web-only "New Readers' Guide" to update and replace the self-published "Readers' Guide" from the 60's of which only few of 100 copies are publicly available. An example of the detailed information that is unlikely to found outside of these sources are these notes on a poem.--BirgitteSB 17:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• Sources/publishers such as the Kipling Society have been mentioned many times by reputable news media such as the New York Times and the BBC. This BBC news article, for example, mentions the society in a way that indicates it is indeed a reliable source and authority on the topic. No reason that we can't include such societies in the guideline. --Aude (talk) 17:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, this might be covered by an exception saying that if multiple reliable sources cite a self-published source as an authority, this source may be used in a similar manner on Wikipedia. Tim Vickers 17:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• The Old Readers Guide was supported by the society, but it was definitely self-published. (I am lucky enough to live near a University that has a copy and have personally seen it; every page is printed with something along the lines of "For private use only"). The New Readers Guide gets a lot of information from this Old Readers Guide, but it is far from complete currently, so in some case you will have to refer to the Old Readers' Guide. This is the most extreme example of a source I can think of which, I feel people use and regard as reliable, but has few of the benchmarks that are used here to judge reliability.--BirgitteSB 17:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Aude raises an interesting point above. Where there are reliable sources that give a self-published source a good review, it should usually be considered reliable, IMO. Should this rule-of-thumb be added to the policy? It would certainly help with cases like the one Birgitte mentions. JulesH 18:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's a way of formulating language to cover that issue. Many blogs get some kind of favorable nod from columnists writing in reliable sources. We don't have a system where a reliable source can make another source reliable by giving it a good review. The trouble with self-published sources is that they may not be consistent from one period of time to another. We already exempt self-published people who are acknowledged experts writing within their field of expertise. Why wouldn't that cover the Old Readers Guide? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Do we really "exempt self-published people who are acknowledged experts writing within their field of expertise"? I don't see anything in WP:V, WP:NOR, or WP:RS that says so. Raymond Arritt 20:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The man behind the Old Readers Guide is described here when he became president of the Society:He was a Banker all his working life, and retired in 1946 after twenty years as Manager of West End Branches. From 1911 he was an officer in a Territorial Battalion of The Buffs, and served for over five years during and after World War One, mostly in the East and much of the time as a Brigade Major. Then it describes his work done for the Society or towards the Society's goals (amoung others things For many years he has given invaluable help to the past two Hon. Librarians, and his knowledge of our Library and indeed of all Kipling's writings is encyclopaedic.). I guess the real question is where does someone cross the line from "enthusiast" to "expert". I honestly don't know how we judging if someone qualifies as an expert right now.--BirgitteSB 20:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Incorporating the suggestions generated in the discussion above. Please edit and comment. Tim Vickers 19:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Fact Check

See also: Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made, with exceptional claims requiring multiple, independent reliable sources. The most reliable sources for subjects such as medicine and the natural sciences are generally published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly peer-reviewed publications in academic journals, textbooks, and books published by academic presses. However, alternative reliable sources can be used if scholarly publications do not cover a topic - which may sometimes be the case in the arts, humanities or current events.

Sources of questionable reliability

In general, sources of questionable reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking procedures or editorial oversight. Sources of questionable reliability should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any potentially libelous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.

Self-published sources (online and paper)

Shortcut

• WP:SPSWP:SPS

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are usually unacceptable as sources.

Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an experienced professional researcher, well-known journalist, or other expert in a relevant field. Such authors should have previously published work in that specific field, in publications that are clearly reliable sources. In this case, citation of these self-published sources may be acceptable, particularly if these sources have previously been cited by other reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in such a self-published source is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so in a reliable source.

Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP. Such sources are also unacceptable as support for exceptional claims, as these require multiple, independent reliable sources.

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

Please comment on the new draft here:

Tim, while your suggestions are an improvement over the existing policy, the problem that we continue to run into is with regard to judging the reliability of the fact checking sources. I have seen greatly extended arguments dealing with who or what is a reliable fact checking source. And the arguments go nowhere. If we require that the WP editor has to source the specific fact that they are alleging in the WP article, then we bypass a great deal of debate. For example, imagine a book appearing saying that the earth revolves around the sun in a book publishing environment where the common conception is that the sun revolves around the earth. We know that this one book is right but by WP standards, this book is not a reliable source. Unless I'm mistaken in my understanding of the policy, this simply is an afront to new and provable research. Again, my I suggest this article as a source about the state of reliable sources and fact checking: "The Factchecking Facts"? It's quite an eye-opener and a serious wake up call to the Verifiability vs. Truth discussion. Thank you for your time and effort. Jtpaladin 19:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If there is only the one book which makes the claim, then, yes, it couldn't be used as a source. But it could be used as an article on its own, so long as it was published by a reputable publisher. But if it's the embodiment of a movement which says that the earth revolves around the sun, then the book could be used in an article about counterexamples, i.e., 'In his book The Solar Sytem, Nicholas Copernicus asserts that, in fact, the Earth revolves around the Sun. The theory has been supported by Galileo Galilei, Fred Hoyle and ..." (then provide references). Do you see where I'm going with this? Corvus cornix 20:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Tim, you've never edited any of the content policies before, and it's showing in some of the edits you're making, which are causing subtle contradictions in some areas, both internally and across policies. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback, could you be more specific? Tim Vickers 20:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I certainly respect User:SlimVirgin's experience in crafting policies, but it would be more useful to identify specific failings of the draft rather than simply reasserting her greater experience. MastCell ^Talk 21:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the preference for academic sources should be restricted to natural science and medicine, as it is in TimVickers' current draft. IMHO, academic sources, if they are present at all, will tend to be at least preferable in almost any field. "Popular views" and crank theories are extremely dangerous in the social sciences and in history, and I can imagine them causing problems in the humanities as well. As for SV's Holocaust issue (which seems to be the main example of an alternative non-scholarly view that the policies must endorse): I find it difficult to believe that no scholar at all, of any conviction or affiliation, has ever defended what she describes as "the non-scholarly view". But if that is indeed the case, then I just don't see how that view could claim extensive coverage in Wikipedia (it would inevitably get some coverage, since even the fact that it is dismissed by scholars implies that it has to be described). --Anonymous44 02:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There are academics who support it, but Holocaust historians do not, because they say it relies on a simplistic understanding of the material. Regardless of their views, the debate is an important one, and it would be obtuse of us to leave it out. One of the editors supporting the change to this page said today that alternative views have been deliberately kept out of Global warming, even though there exist good non-scholarly sources for those views. That's the kind of thing I find very objectionable. We are here as librarians only, as Crum375 said. We're not scientists or researchers who are trying to promote certain views and suppress others. We're here only to direct people to good sources of all kinds and persuasions, and allow readers to read about the debates and judge for themselves. That doesn't mean we let in nonsense, but we're not allowed to keep something out just because it didn't emanate from an ivory tower. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The question is precisely how a source, especially in a scientific filed such as global warming, can be "good" without being scholarly. I don't see that. As for letting wikipedians "judge for themselves", your version is the one that gives more of a researcher's "freedom" and "autonomy" in that respect. The editor is left almost completely free to decide arbitrarily what constitutes a "reliable" or "good" source and is likely to be influenced by his own agenda. We always have to decide which sources/views deserve more trust/attention, how "significant/prominent" they are per WP:Undue Weight etc. In Vickers' proposal, there is some guidance for that. To me, reliability is associated with academic, peer-reviewed stuff, and with reputed media. If we stop preferring this "ivory tower", there are just too few objective barriers against the tsunamis of "alternative" nonsense coming from outside. --Anonymous44 12:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Fundamentally, the question is whether "good non-scholarly sources" are equal to scholarly sources. Some of us have a hard time accepting that an interview with Dr. Krakpott in USA Today has to be considered on the same level as a report from the National Academy of Sciences. It will be interesting to see how this ends up. Raymond Arritt 03:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody says that an interview with a single eccentric scientist on USA Today carries the same weight as a report published in a reputable peer reviewed journal. The point is that we need to assign to each source a weight, compare them all, try to gauge the prevailing views based on these sources, and then present a neutral and balanced picture of the state of the published literature. A tiny minority, such as Dr. Krakpott, could well be excluded, per WP:UNDUE, despite being published in a newspaper. But the point is that all significant views should be represented, per WP:NPOV. It is up to us as editors to assign these weights and decide how to meet our NPOV requirement. Crum375 04:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

(ec)My experience editing highly disputatious articles such as global warming and medical scams tells me that your view of how the process works is touchingly naive. If primacy isn't given to peer-reviewed science, we'll have even more of a struggle against tenacious POV-pushers. I can bet you as surely as the sun rises in the east that they'll holler "You can't leave out Dr. Krakpott! USA Today is a perfectly good newspaper, and according to WP:V you can't say that the Journal of Climate carries any more weight just because it's peer reviewed!" (Actually many of their favorite sources are worse than USA Today, but they still meet the very weak requirements established for WP:V.) Raymond Arritt 04:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. I don't want to sound apocalyptic, but the truth is that there is always literally an ocean of nonsense and agenda-driven stuff out there, threatening to engulf us and turn us into just another place that makes the Internet suck (paraphrasing Jimbo). --Anonymous44 12:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the problem is that the current policy gives no guidance on how to assess sources for relative weight - a critical omission. It does a reasonably good job of explaining what cannot be included, but does not help a reader who is wondering how to apply the statement that the "relative weight" of sources must be considered. I have tried to fix this omission in this new wording. However, nothing in the proposed wording on which sources are usually most reliable makes fixed rules, instead it offers general and useful guidance. Tim Vickers 04:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

My own opinion is that we should not constrain editors from using their common sense, as each context may be different. But in general, mainstream reputable sources with more vetting layers carry more weight than others. Crum375 04:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, very true. This is why the propose wording allows editors to use their common sense and include alternative sources if they are needed to cover aspects that are not dealt with in the higher-quality sources. However, I'm sure you see my point in that giving no guidance at all on an relative weight - an important point made explicitly in WP:NPOV - is a major omission. However, as you say, this can't be any more than guidance and needs to allow editors to use their own judgement. I get the feeling we may be coming close to agreement. Tim Vickers 05:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

An alternative is to omit any mention of subject areas:

The most reliable sources for subjects are generally published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly peer-reviewed publications in academic journals, textbooks, and books published by academic presses. However, alternative reliable sources such as newspaper or magazine articles, books from non-academic publishers and government reports can be used if scholarly publications do not cover all aspects of a topic.

Tim Vickers 04:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that I like that wording, because my own preference is to give more weight to mainstream, well vetted, reputable publications. So you could have an obscure scientific journal, with 2 peers who are in collusion with the author, on one side, and reports in the Washington Post and the New York Times on the other. I would not give the obscure journal any more weight than the papers, yet your proposed wording relegates the papers to a lower tier, while promoting the obscure journal. In my opinion, we need to decide which sources are significant and discard those that aren't, and then we need to prioritize the survivors, and present them based on their prevalence and quality. To blindly declare that a scientific journal trumps other publications is wrong, and would violate NPOV. The bottom line is that we need common sense, not an exact prescription. Crum375 05:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that common sense is so uncommon. If guidelines can be disqualified by the presence of absurd counterexamples (such as your two-author "journal"), why have guidelines at all? Why not just replace WP:V with a one-sentence statement "Use whatever sources you think best"? Raymond Arritt 05:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with just saying "mainstream" and "reputable" is that these are very woolly concepts and impossible in practice to define or apply. But the point you raise is a good one - there may be the occasional exception to this general statement, but do you agree that this is true in most cases? I've made the change to "generally published by", which will allow editors to use this guidance (which is not worded to be at all prescriptive) flexibly to accommodate the rare exceptions, such as the one you raise. Tim Vickers 05:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

For the record, what is excluded on Global warming is non-science sources to introduce scientific skepticism. The principal alternative to human-induced warming, solar variation, has a nice, tidy section, properly sourced to scholarly material, which introduces a note of skepticism without relying on conservative newspapers. The section on global political issues is also of appropriate scope for an introductory page, and here newspapers are used, because newspapers are appropriate for describing politics.

I did not want to introduce the example only to have it twisted. This is top of google on easily one of the top-ten issues of our time and, having gone through it extensively on FAR, I think it's a fine example of our best work. If it's not clear, prioritizing textbooks and peer-reviewed journals is a no-brainer for scientific theory itself. A science page in its entirety may, of course, have other material where we have no need to demand peer-reviewed work. Marskell 13:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Crum375's comment, I don't think anyone would interpret any of these drafts to exclude the New York Times or Washington Post as a reliable source on pretty much anything. We're not talking about the Times, though; we're talking about much more questionable "non-scholarly" news sources. For many topics where a clear scientific consensus exists despite a vocal sociopolitical minoritarian dissent (e.g. vaccination, evolution, AIDS reappraisal), you have the consensus of the scientific community on one side and a number of blogs, websites, newsletters, organizations, and alternative media criticizing the science on the other. Inevitably, dedicated single-purpose editors show up to demand that these alternative sources be given equal weight in terms of how we present the science. WP:WEIGHT is vital here, as is the fact that scholarly sources are typically given precedence over non-scholarly sources when describing the scientific understanding of a topic. If we alter WP:RS or WP:V to put "scholarly and non-scholarly" sources on an equal footing, the integrity of the encyclopedia (as far as scientific articles, at least) is going to suffer. Note that I'm not talking about excluding dissenting views; I'm talking about properly characterizing them. I have a lot of respect for editors who've worked on policy extensively, and I recognize my inexperience here. I'm just asking that the views of editors who try to maintain medical/scientific articles be appreciated as well, as I think the implications of this change on such articles has not been fully taken into account. MastCell ^Talk 18:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No matter how much some scientists detest it, alternative views about vaccination must be published if there are reliable sources, and there are. That doesn't mean blogs and newsletters. It means books and papers by reliable sources; mainstream newspaper articles, and so on. You write as if scientists were always right, but you must know that's very far from the truth. Take some recent news about asthma. The Buteyko method of controlling attacks was widely ridiculed, with all the same arguments being trotted out (not peer-reviewed, no clinical trials, not scientific!!), even though thousands of asthma sufferers were able to stop their medication because of it. The difficulty was that no one wanted to fund a clinical trial, because no drug company would benefit from it; quite the reverse, in fact. Then a hospital took it up, developed it a little, and conducted a trial, and recently the method has been confimed to work very well. Yet for over a decade, the story was that it was baseless and dangerous. This is exactly why we have our NPOV policy. We must never fall into the trap of thinking that just because a powerful special interest group says X, X is the only story in town. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a matter of choosing the lesser evil and being cautious. This Buteyko could have turned out to be a charlatan as well, and for every example of good "alternative" stuff, there will be thousands of bad ones; if we have to choose between missing some useful info and allowing some BS in, we should choose the former (that's one point of deleting unsourced stuff, articles etc). You talk about "books and papers by reliable (non-scholarly) sources", but during this whole discussion, I haven't heard how one can establish that these are "reliable", with no criterion left but the fact that they are "kinda popular", that one likes their style, the design of their cover, or their agenda. Apart from the "not self-published" requirement, everything else is relative, and there are tons of agenda-motivated pseudoscience being published by third parties. --Anonymous44 11:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

(Response to SlimVirgin) I'm afraid I draw a different conclusion from your example (and I won't argue about Buteyko, other than to say that the story is a little more complex than the summary above). If the Buteyko method was considered bogus for years, then Wikipedia should have reflected, for those years, that it was considered bogus by the medical community, though anecdotal reports of its usefulness existed. When research was published indicating it might work, then Wikipedia should be updated to reflect that understanding. Scientists are not always right; in fact, given a long enough time frame, they are almost always proven wrong. Nonetheless, until they are proven wrong, Wikipedia should accurately reflect the current understanding. You seem to be implying that Wikipedia should have given more weight to the anecdotal claims of Buteyko's effectiveness, even before the relevant studies were published. That's convenient, with 20/20 hindsight, but as noted above it cherry-picks Buteyko as an example and ignores the fact that many proprietary health products supported only by anecdotal evidence turn out to be useless or worse.

You misunderstand if you think I'm advocating censoring anti-vaccinationist views or promoting the views of "powerful special interest groups" as the only game in town. I'm just saying that if Wikipedia's goal is truly to accurately represent the current state of human knowledge, then it has a long way to go, at least in terms of the topics I spend the most time on. From my perspective, the proposed change is a step in the wrong direction. It may lead to significant improvements in the Holocaust-related articles; I wouldn't know. It will, however, make it more difficult to accurately and neutrally present scientific topics. MastCell ^Talk 00:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

If I may butt in, I agree with much of what you say, but disagree with some. I believe that scientists should not be given an automatic 'bye' in the NPOV balance. A scientific publication should be judged on its merits, like any publication. The merits from the WP perspective are the number of vetting layers that exist and the reputability, so peer review would count, as would editorial oversight. Larger more reputable publishing houses or media would also count, as they are assumed to have more vetters and fact checkers. Given these criteria, it is likely that in most cases the scientific publication would be far 'better' wiki-wise, but not always so. We could have a case of an obscure science paper published by an obscure publisher, vs. a report in the NYT and Wash Post, for example. So we should not pre-judge sources based on arbitratry criteria - we should let our editors judge each source on its merits. Crum375 00:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense. The problem is the broad-brush "scholarly and non-scholarly" wording. Yes, there are a few obscure journals with dubious editorial standards. But for scientific issues -- as opposed to things like policy implications of science -- a journal that is good enough to be indexed in the ISI Web of Science is going to trump USA Today almost every time. The "scholarly and nonscholarly" wording glides right over the nuances you've described, and makes it sound like USA Today is just as good a source on radiative transfer and its implications for global warming as is the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Raymond Arritt 00:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

(reply to crum -wading back in, if only a little) Crum375's comment is one of the reasons I think we should work with the RS guideline to make it more robust and comprehensive (as opposed to official policies, which should be more general in nature). It seems to me that in the event there is likely to be the occasional exception to a general rule, then we should encode it in such a way that allows for the exception without having to invoke something like IAR. Because when "rules" have to be ignored, something about the policy is probably wrong (or at least not comprehensive in scope). R. Baley 00:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I would agree in principle about the potential use of guidelines to amplify policies, but in reality RS ends up being a distraction and source of confusion for V. For example, the push to promote scholarly sources over non-scholarly, which I believe violates NPOV, started on RS, whereas something this fundamental should start at the policy level. In general, I believe we really need to get our core policies stabilized before expanding them with guidelines, otherwise we end up going around in circles. If it were up to me, I would redirect RS to V, make sure any missing RS material is properly covered in V, and continue fine tuning V in one place. Doing these things in two (or more) places is very confusing and counterproductive. Crum375 02:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Moreoever, I'd suggest the discussion take place on the NPOV talk page, because changing any policy to prioritize scholarly sources is an NPOV and Foundation issue, so we would need the broadest possible input. We need to focus it on one page so that we can alert people to the discussion. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:24, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

First we get directed from RS to V, then from V to NPOV, because somehow using scholarly sources violates NPOV. (Note also that WP:NPOV points to -- guess what? -- WP:RS, so it's hardly fair to berate people for referring to WP:RS.) No offense, but I feel like we're getting jerked around. And I'd like to see where it says that counting newspapers as equal to scientific journals is a Foundation issue. Not that I'm doubting you, but I'd like to be able to read the policies for myself. Raymond Arritt 02:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

A better solution may be to return to the earlier version, which did not specify that scholarly and non-scholarly sources were to be accorded equal status. That version left it to editors to work out on individual topics which sources, if any, should be accorded priority. That was actually a better approach; the change made in April (and the proposal to prioritize scholarly sources) both introduce a level of prescriptiveness that may not work well for all articles. A solution would be to go back to the prior version, which was more flexible. The change made in April undoubtedly had consensus at the time, but at present, with wider input, that consensus appears no longer to exist. MastCell ^Talk 02:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

So, is the Jim Wales comment still the rule of law here? I'm referring to:

If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research.'

Truth is an irrelevancy, only sheer volume of sources matters. It is original research to expect an WP editor to show proof of a source in a book. Is this still the rule?

My concern regarding published sources is the ease to which sources get published. Someone who has written a non-fiction book stating that George Bush is from the planet Zandar and he has come to earth to save 1,934,918 people so he can transport them on his silver surf-board back to Zandar so they can be eaten during the "Festival of O'poza", can get it published by any publishing house that thinks they can make a lot of money with the book.

The standards to get a book published have fallen substantially in recent years so the reputation of the publishing houses are about as good as the reputations of the accounting firms who took money during the late 1990's to inflate the balance sheets of various scandal-ridden corporations.

Also, the growth of publishing companies has exploded in recent years. I know about the rules of self-publishing but anyone who knows how to create their own publishing house can easily get around this rule. But more importantly, the assumption that the publishing houses are doing their job with regard to fact checking is inceasingly becoming a large leap of faith. People who think that publishers are more interested in fact checking than they are in making profits are putting far too much faith in the publishers. If the fact checking of a book that could potentially make multi-million Dollars domestically and internationally would stand in the way of those profits, does anyone seriously think fact checking will prevail in the decision of whether or not to release the book?

My point is that I think the rule regarding Verifiability should be modified. I think that an editor here should be able to reference a book for an article but if challenged on the book, the editor should be required to provide the source of the information used in the book. For example, if we are dealing with an article about Global Warming and an editor posts a book that says that Global Warming is caused by Al Gore's invention of the internet, the editor should be required to point to the scientific source used in proving that Al Gore's invention of the internet is what is causing Global Warming. The way it stands right now, all the editor has to do is point to the page number in the book where the author makes this claim, i.e. the source is irrelevant; only the fact that the author has made that claim is all that matters.

If we require editors to "prove up" their sources, we are going to see a lot less arguing on the Discussion pages of each article. Just the mere fact that people spend so much time arguing about the reliability of a source takes up a serious amount of time.

For anyone interested in reading about the fact checking disaster in the publishing houses, I urge you to please read, "The Factchecking Facts". It's quite an eye-opener and a serious wake up call to the Verifiability vs. Truth discussion. Thank you. Jtpaladin 19:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

You are simply way off the mark. You are assuming that WP is seeking truth, and that by going after verifiable sources it believes it will find it. But that is not the case. WP is seeking verifiable sources, period. We assume that information that comes from such sources has been vetted by multiple persons, with specific focus on legal liability in the case of making fraudulent claims. But we do not expect perfection, and in fact by allowing and even requiring multiple points of view, we expect and welcome contradictions. Obviously when there are contradictions, there must be at least one vetted fact that is wrong, so we expect wrong information. Our goal is simply to represent the reliably published information, not to seek the truth. Think of us as a helpful librarian, who helps an interested reader to the best available published sources that cover a given topic. No guarantees are made as to 'correctness' or 'truth', only our best effort to find and present the best published sources neutrally and in a balanced fashion. An equivalent way to state our mission: we are librarians, not scientists. Crum375 20:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

No, Crum375, that's not what I'm assuming. I'm clear that WP is after Verifiability and not necessarily truth. My point is the faith in fact-checkers is a mistake. I'm simply questioning the process. I have no interest in changing policy. That's up to you guys. Jtpaladin 23:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Then we'd better advertise that widely to the public. A lot of people think that Wikipedia is concerned with accuracy. It's troubling that there's little effort to disabuse people of that notion -- it's almost like we're willing to let the misperception go on, because it's to our benefit. Raymond Arritt 20:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

But we are concerned with accuracy - accurately reflecting the verifiably published literature on a given subject, and presenting it neutrally and in a balanced fashion. Accuracy and truth are different concepts. Crum375 20:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The distinction may be clear to us Wikignomes, but I wonder how many casual readers recognize the difference. Wikipedia:About says we try to avoid "misinformation" (conventionally defined as "false or misleading information") and the like. Why not be clear up front in saying that we may knowingly include false or misleading information in order to fairly represent all points of view? Raymond Arritt 20:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If we're presenting false information, it should be made clear that the information is generally considered false. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case. As to Jtpaladin's initial argument, this appears to be a serious case of forum-shopping regarding a dispute at Talk:Joseph McCarthy, in which Jtpaladin is soldiering on against a consensus. MastCell ^Talk 21:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

MastCell, sorry but that's not the case. I'm trying to gain a better understanding of a policy that puts verifiability over the establishment of truth by examining sources. This has nothing to do with your absurd claim of forum-shopping (I mean, come on) since I'm not even mentioning the article in any other place other than in that particular discussion board. However, I am concerned that an author can make a claim and not have to prove the claim and yet that author's claim is used as a source for a WP article. As the article I posted above "The Factchecking Facts" demonstrates, putting your faith in fact-checkers is bound to lead to disappointment. Jtpaladin 23:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a forum for dealing with abstractions, MastCell. You are the one attempting to tie the discussion here to a particular Wiki article, not Jtpaladin. When a particular issue gives rise to a more abstract issue, such as a Wiki policy, the particular issue falls out as irrelevant and it is entirely appropriate to discuss the abstract issue in a forum designed for such discussions.Bdell555 04:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Not concerned with accuracy? Verifiability may not be a perfect way to gain accuracy, but saying that it's being done for it's own sake is absurd. Why bother verifying anything at all, if you aren't trying for accuracy? Merely because verifying is entertaining? Sheesh. 71.199.46.150 22:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that WP is going for accuracy as part of verifiability but it's truth that suffers at WP, not a desire for accuracy. Again, I stress the issue that people seem to ignore and that is the reliance on publishers to fact-check their own writers (see "The Factchecking Facts") and what they release to the public. My contention and that of the article I posted is that fact-checking by publishers has been and still is a joke. That's why I keep insisting that if you really want an article to be filled with accurate, verifiable, and truthful information, you are going to have to investigate the primary sources and make sure that (1) They are there; and (2) That they are saying what the secondary source is saying they say, and; (3) That the primary source is dependable.

A lot of work? Yes. At this time, is it considered Original Research to undertake such a task? Yes, but writers of books and articles who really care about getting out the accurate truth in their publications go through that process daily. It is the ones that aim to deceive, push a particular non-truthful perspective, are lazy, etc. that don't do their fact-checking. Would such a policy wipe out a number of existing WP articles? Yes. But isn't quality what we seek rather than quantity? Sure you can get an article that you can verify but one the major criticisms that WP is getting is how those facts are flimsy because of the sources being used. There's no shortcut to writing a verifiable and truthful article. Jtpaladin 00:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no shortcut to writing a verifiable and truthful article'. Sure, but that is not the way that Wikipedia works, I am afraid. There are other wikis that encourage original research of the kind you refer to. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Something that hasn't been addressed in this discussion is the reason why Wikipedia works this way. It seems simple to me: When an editor wants a certain point added or removed from an article, the argument about whether that point is supported by WP:reliable sources is usually an argument that can be settled. If the argument were to become whether that point has been "sufficiently verified", there would be no settling it, ever. RedSpruce 16:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

This is why primary sources play such an important role in making an article as factual as possible. Relying on the interpretation of that primary source by a secondary source and hoping that fact-checkers are actually being employed at the publishing house is an exercise in pure faith. I've read numerous books where the author puts in quotes statements made by someone else and yet there is not a footnote on the matter to be found. I've read a book recently where I did not find a single footnote in the entire book but that only at the end of the book the author mentions the sources, documents, etc. to which he referred in writing his book. Of course, there's no way of knowing what goes where. The disturbing part is that any editor here could use that book as a source for a WP article and for all we know, the author is simply wrong or being misleading. It wouldn't be the first time. So, we are posting info into articles that may very well be inaccurate. My prediction is that as time goes on, other wiki-type encyclopedia's (like citizendium) will come along who will put verifiable truth ahead of WP's style and while those sources will grow in favor with the public, WP will fall by the wayside and become a footnote itself, unless changes are made. Jtpaladin 21:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Redspruce has it completely backwards. An argument over whether a source is "reliable" (or not) can only be settled if it can be verified that some or all of that source's claims are true (or false).Bdell555 04:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting prediction, but it doesn't seem likely. There's no reason to assume that Citizendium will be immune to less-than-stellar references. There's plenty of reason to assume, however, that it's readership and exposure will take a long time to reach that of this site. dr.ef.tymac 21:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

There was a time when scholars actually predicted that a human being will never be able to travel beyond 60 mph. So much for that theory and any theory that thinks that change is not inevitable. Jtpaladin 19:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of Verifiability vs. Truth is that we as editors cannot be expected to have the expertise to be able to verify information on all the various topics on WP. What we can be expected to do is ask "is this information published?", and "does the publisher have editorial oversight that at least attempts to be accurate?". If so, then the information can be attributed to the source. Wikipedia's voice should generally not be used to state any fact that is less widely verified and undisputed than "The Earth is a sphere." Everything should give attribution. Wikipedia is an unreliable source. It doesn't know anything. It just presents what others have already determined. But don't forget that verifiability is not the only standard for inclusion. OR, NPOV, BLP, etc., have to be met too. And original research isn't just information that is unverified. You can take some marginal sources, or primary sources, add POV, and you have yourself some OR. You can even create OR from rock solid verified secondary sources, by creating a synthesis between multiple sources that advances a position. - Crockspot 02:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent summary, Crockspot. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

That goes to the heart of the issue. It should be incumbent upon any editor to have the skill and ability to edit an article in such a way where truthful verifiablility is something of which they are capable in determining. The use of primary sources should always trump the opinion of some secondary source. Forget fact-checking at reputable publishers. I have posted repeatedly the same link about that issue. These sources are not dependable. I have given my example and yet you guys find ways of not addressing head-on what I am saying. A book by a reputable publisher that not only has poor fact-checking but doesn't even contain correct grammar is not a good source. When the secondary source is seemingly creating quotes out of thin air, are you suggesting that this is a good source? Come on, guys, you're kidding yourselves. The reality is that nothing is going to change here. Editors will make edits and wikistalking editors will follow wround deleting WP:NPOV, WP:VERIFY, etc. It's all a huge waste of time. I spend more time doing reverts of verifiable info than I do in adding new info. And a great deal of this is because you have two secondary sources saying two different things based on the same primary info. Lastly, you're right that "Wikipedia is an unreliable source". And isn't that a shame. Everyday more and more of the public is realizing this and at some point WP will have to change or simply become relegated to bye-bye land. Jtpaladin 19:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem, Crockspot, is that the issue is not settled with "the information can be attributed to the source" when two sources conflict. If we don't "have the expertise" to resolve the conflict, then the final article is simply determined by whoever is more persistent in a revert war. Wouldn't it be more productive to acknowledge that Wiki users have brains that can be applied to resolving the conflict? If that opens the door to "original research", then so be it, wouldn't you say?Bdell555 05:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The following language has wide support at WT:RS. It originally derives from this page, and is general; it should, in some form be here as well:

The most reliable material is published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses. These sources are preferred in subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. However, alternative reliable sources are used when scholarly publications are not available, such as in topics related to popular culture or current events.

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This wording forms part of the proposed new section which is being discussed above. Tim Vickers 20:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I've protected the page for a few days. There seems to be an edit war going on. I had actually been hoping to take a closer look at this page some time, but there's so much going on that I wouldn't know where to begin or which side I'm on. Can you come to some agreement without reverting? The protection expires in four days, but if you most of you want it unprotected sooner, just let me know. ElinorD (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that was probably a good idea. I expect you will have protected the wrong version, but that's to be expected. Tim Vickers 21:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

{{editprotected}}

The current version of this page removes the long-standing exemption that applies to professional journalists. Can it please be reverted to a version that includes such an exemption until the discussions above have been concluded? I would suggest any of the following revisions:

SlimVirgin at 19:11, 27 June 2007

JulesH at 14:24, 27 June 2007

Johan Lont at 12:12, 26 June 2007

My preference (obviously) is for the second. This is a reversion to an earlier state of the article, which to me seems substantially less contentious than any of the recent phrasings, and fixes the issues some editors have had with the policy while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The first is the most recent phrasing that does not include any of the recent contentious changes, the last is the state of the article before the current edit war began. JulesH 07:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone object to this change? --ais523 08:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

We don't need "(scholarly or non-scholarly)" as in SlimVirgin's edit, but your version is acceptable since it reflected discussion on the talk page. --Aude (talk) 12:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

We might again wring our hands over "expert", but if people believe that it meets some of the examples that have been presented, I won't quibble. It's certainly preferable to the "non-scholarly" innovation. (The example is a bit wordy, though.) Marskell 13:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The JulesH version is OK. The "scholarly or non-scholarly" wording is inappropriate. Raymond Arritt 13:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I don't remember anybody arguing seriously against JulesH's version. --Anonymous44 13:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Y Done, to the JulesH version. --ais523 14:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I strongly object to what you did, Ais. The journalism thing was removed months ago after an agreement to do so, but was recently restored without agreement, and was therefore removed again. Please leave the page alone until the protection is lifted. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Checking through the history, it appears that the (scholarly or non-scholarly) text was the one present a month ago (to pick an arbitrary figure), so the 'original version' is not clear and both versions that have been recently reverted to are 'innovations' in some sense. (Having now actually read the affected versions, rather than merely trying to gauge consensus, it would seem that at least one of the causes of the dispute is a disagreement on whether this text excluded journalists or not; the claim would seem to be that the version SlimVirgin reverted to just now excludes journalists whilst the long-standing version didn't. Note that the removal of the (scholarly or non-scholarly) text is the last edit before protection of the page; the version on which a page is protected during a dispute is often a matter of chance.)

Trying to piece together the chronology of what happened; this edit by SlimVirgin is a revert to what SlimVirgin apparently believes is the old version of the policy (and is above in a shortlist of possible versions to revert to, so this text, which some people think is inappropriate above but does seem to be longstanding, seems to be believed by JulesH to contain an exemption for journalists). The most recent revert by SlimVirgin is to similar text, but doesn't contain the exemption from JulesH's point of view (see the diff between the two versions SlimVirgin reverted to). What is SlimVirgin's objection to the way I fulfilled the editprotected; was it concerns with the content (in which case, there seems to be a misunderstanding about whether the month-old version that I'm using as a reference actually excluded journalists or not, and whether the version I reverted to or the version that SlimVirgin just reverted to reflects the longstanding version)? Was it an attempt to revert to a longstanding version due to no consensus with the version I reverted to, but not noticing that the version reverted to was a slightly modified version just (3 minutes) before the protection, not a longstanding one? Was it a purely procedural revert due to the page being edited while it was protected? (In this case, I'd point out that one of the two main purposes of editprotected is precisely to correct a case when a page has been protected on The Wrong Version and many editors agree that it's the wrong version that's been protected.) Or was it something else? See also my explanation on User talk:Marskell as to why I answered the editprotected request.

However, I would ask that you at least correct the interwiki to nl: (it's going to their equivalent of Wikipedia:Citing sources at the moment); I can't even read the language, but the content of the page can be deduced by looking at its structure and checking the interwikis back to en:. (Probably a minor matter, I just noticed this looking over the diffs.) --ais523 17:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm OK with the JulesH version, the "non-scholarly" addition was not an improvement. Tim Vickers 17:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't an addition; it had been there for some time. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) ais523, I believe your edits of a protected page were totally out of order. We clearly have disputes over various issues here, and the page was protected. Many of us here are admins who can physically edit this page, and of course we all refrain from doing so. The only way a protected page can be modified beyond a trivial edit (e.g. spelling fix) is via a clear and unambiguous unanimous consent of all editors. There is clearly no such consent, and for you to perform edits that are taking part in a content dispute while using your admin tools is absolutely unacceptable. Crum375 17:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ais, you really shouldn't be editing protected policy pages when you're clearly not familiar with the dispute. There are two main issues: 1. Here is Marskell's removal on June 27, without consensus, of "scholarly or non-scholarly," which has been in the policy for some time. 2. Here is JulesH on June 27 restoring an old version that made an exception for professional journalists; this had been removed in April after agreement on talk.

My guess is that JulesH did this in order to restore the "scholarly and non-scholarly" distinction that Marskell is trying to remove. If that was his motivation, I agree with him, but in so doing he (perhaps inadvertently) restored a version that was problematic for other reasons.

This is the kind of chaos we end up with when people turn up to edit war. I hope everyone will stop, read the archives, read the other policies, see how they hang together, and then discuss intelligently on talk, rather than forcing us to regurgitate discussions that have taken place many times already. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You should not be editing protected pages, in which you are involved in the dispute. --Aude (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's all just take a step back here and to try to WP:assume good faith and not seek to own this page in any way. I am not here to edit war and I do not think any of the other editors who are trying to improve the deficiencies listed above are here to edit war either. Repeated assertions of authority without any attempt to explain what the problems are not entirely constructive. Tim Vickers 17:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The problems have been explained to you several times on this and other pages, but you're ignoring them and ploughing ahead with your own ideas anyway. It's therefore becoming increasingly difficult to assume good faith. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with SlimVirgin's assessment of what the dispute is in their most recent comment. Crum375, I'm not entirely sure I agree with your interpretation of the protection policy. "Admins should not edit pages that are protected due to a content dispute, unless there is consensus for the change, or the change is unrelated to the dispute." There seemed at the time (and still seems to me) that there is consensus that the page was protected in an unusual version that didn't reflect consensus.

You're wrong about that. The version protected isn't the one I would prefer, but it's a lot better than the one from April you restored, and there's nothing "unusual" about it. If you want to continue with this, please consult the protecting admin. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There is another dispute, about which version should actually be reverted to, if not the one the article was protected in.

I have previously made exactly one other edit of this nature ([]). In this case, the edit to the contentious part of the template happened to take the template back to the version it was protected on. However, I feel that relying on which version a page happened to be protected is flawed, especially as the protection was made just 3 minutes after an edit away from the longstanding version. One risk in such circumstances is that a user reports to WP:RFPP with the right timing to get the article protected in their favoured version; however, that doesn't seem to have happened here. Another risk is that the protecting admin has a vested interest in the timing of the protection, but again that doesn't seem to have happened here, so the timing of the protection is fortituous. Normally, it's not worth returning a protected page to a longstanding state, but when there is a large outcry on the Talk page, and the disputed text (in this case, the express or implied exemption for journalists, which was in fact in the policy this time last year with different wording) is different from the longstanding state and seems to never have gained consensus, according to the Talk page. (I'm not too clear about whether it ever had gained consensus, though, looking through the arguments here; the relevant sections seem to have drifted off-topic, and it's obscured in other discussion. If it 'had' gained consensus, there is then the problem of wondering whether it had consensus for long enough that it should count as the default version to revert to during a dispute, which strikes me as the sort of question that promotes process wonkery and wikilawyering rather than any sort of sensible discussion, but is likely to come up anyway.)

I made the edit as part of running through CAT:PER for editrequested requests (I tend to stay out of mainspace in such requests, as it's not where my expertise lies, but I do many of the technical CAT:PER requests that happen in my timezone, although I'm not the only admin who covers them.) It seems to have become remarkably contentious for a backlog-clearing.

Again, I'd reiterate that the purpose of editprotected is for edits to be made to a protected page. It seems that there is something of a dispute brewing up now on a higher level than this one about whether protection policy allows editing of a page protected due to a dispute, even by people who aren't involved in the dispute (I previously wasn't, and had no opinion on the matter before making the edit, but was following what appeared to be consensus on the Talk page), to return it to a less contentious state. I asked for input from the regulars here as to which version was the least contentious as a result, and received a pretty-much unanimous answer. That may have been bad luck due to which editors were fastest to respond, in this case, but at the time the edit appeared clear-cut.

I hope this answers any queries about my edit. I will not, of course, revert here again with respect to this dispute (could someone please correct the protection tag from semi'd to full-protection, though, please?), and wouldn't have even if there had been no opposition to my edit (if there was a lot of opposition and consensus had swung the other way, though, I would have tried to be the admin to revert back to avoid a wheel war, as self-reverts to me clearly don't count in terms of wheel warring). I would urge people who oppose my edit to think about whether they're opposing it on content, policy, or process grounds. I hope that clears things up (but I suspect it won't). --ais523 18:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to clarify my reasons for requesting this change. I do not believe there has been consensus at any point to exclude journalists or other subject experts from the types of self-published source we may use.

There was consensus; please see the discussion about it from that time. The reasoning was that there's no need to single out journalism as the one profession we make exceptions for, in terms of self-published material, when as a matter of fact we make exceptions for any previously published specialist researcher in a relevant field. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I remember the discussion well. There was consensus for not listing journalists separately; there was not consensus for not allowing them. I understand your viewpoint, but I have to say that the most likely reading a user who has not been following this talk page for the last few months will have of this policy is that journalists are not appropriate sources. I don't believe this current phrasing has consensus, because of the fact that it does not make it cleare that journalists are acceptable sources: the change to remove them from the list only gained consensus because of the insertion of "(scholarly or non-scholarly)" as a compromise position.

However, because User:Marskell and others do not seem prepared to accept that compromise, and were repeatedly reverting any attempts to restore it, I felt an older version, from before the journalist text was removed from the exception, might be a more stable version. Other than for the sake of textual clarity, no serious objections have been raised to the inclusion of journalists in the text, and as there does not seem to be any other widely accepted phrasing, it seemed sensible to revert to it. JulesH 19:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, at the time of the original removal of this part of the exception, it was stated by all those who appeared in favour of the removal that it was not their intent to do so; they were, rather, clarifying the text as these people were examples of researchers. Others (including myself), however, did not consider that such people would generally be interpreted as "researchers", a word which has a rather specific meaning (an academic researcher) in addition to the more general one that was apparently intended (anybody who performs research). As a compromise, the phrase "scholarly or non-scholarly" was added to the article, to clarify which of these interpretations was intended.

The removal of this phrase, however, clearly changes the policy to the point where such sources are not acceptable. I do not believe such a change has consensus, so I suggested reverting to the previous phrasing as a compromise between my position, and those who did not accept the non-scholaraly part of that phrase. JulesH 18:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right that the removal of "scholarly or non-scholarly" has no consensus, and I intend to restore it when protection is lifted. But restoring just one profession that we accept isn't the answer. It's best to keep it general as professsional researchers in a relevant field, whose work in that field has previously been published by a reliable source. That's quite narrow already; no need to narrow it further by saying only journalists fit it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems that the version I reverted to was too recent and didn't have consensus either, and that I was unlucky in my timing when I checked the talk page. Speaking on the content dispute now (which this rather unexpected controversy has given me a chance to finally think about), rather than on my edit itself: the problem is that there are three versions, one which specifically includes professional journalists and researchers but not anyone else (the 'ancient' version, so to speak (I've checked a version of this policy from a year ago); the problem with this is that it makes an arbitrary distinction that presumably isn't really appropriate in such a policy and will exclude too much), one with no specific or implied exclusions, except for researchers (the version protected; the real problem with this is that in one possible reasonable reading, and the one that's most obvious to me, it excludes even more than the version that excludes too much, and if taken literally would lead to half of Wikipedia being deleted, as far as I can tell), and one which excludes 'scholarly and unscholarly' researchers (presumably including journalists, but many people here think that the wording's lousy). In summary, problem with the protected version is that it's ambiguous in a way that makes it seem as though newspaper articles aren't a reliable source in the simplest reasoning; with the version I reverted to that it allows sources from an arbitrary and restrictive (although common) subset of what is desired; and with the month-old version that the wording isn't very good and can be unclear. At the moment, the third (month-old) version seems to have the least problems, but none are perfect. Coming back to my contentious revert, I apologise for not noticing the intended meaning of the protected version; I found it hard to see how anyone who advocated a version that made exemptions for a broad range of unscholarly researchers could prefer a version that made an exemption for some over an exemption for none! (I therefore erroneously mentally counted SlimVirgin as supporting my revert as an improvement but opposing it either for process reasons or because they'd misread it.) --ais523 18:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ais, the section in question deals with when self-published professional research sources may be used. It therefore has nothing to do with newspaper articles. The current version doesn't say such sources have to be scholarly, or that they have to be journalists, so it's okay. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, that makes it less of a problem, but still ambiguously worded in my view, with what comes as the obvious interpretation to me being the incorrect one. (The very worrying thing here, unrelated to what wording is chosen, is that we'll still have to delete half of Wikipedia, but that's not really an issue of what's discussed here but of changing a culture of the creation of unsourced articles.) I really ought to be going home, anyway, so I'm unlikely to reply to further messages here for a while (possibly not at all if the topic of discussion moves on), though. --ais523 19:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

For many people, "scholarly" will be implied. See, for instance, the American Heritage Dictionary, whose primary definition of "research" is "scholarly or scientific investigation or inquiry". JulesH 19:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"You're right that the removal of "scholarly or non-scholarly" has no consensus, and I intend to restore it when protection is lifted" -- I think it's fairly clear now that its addition has no consensus either, due to the large number of editors who have objected to it on this page. It is for this reason tha I reverted to the older version, which had consensus before and did not seem to be overly contentious. JulesH 19:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly and non-scholarly has clear and long-standing consensus by the very fact that good editors don't only allow self-published scholarly sources into articles, whereas making an exception for journalists is not something I've seen anyone do, and there were good arguments in favor of its removal at the time. It makes no sense to try to solve one dispute by resurrecting another one. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm having a little trouble following this; in particular, "self-published scholarly sources" seems like a contradiction in terms. It's also not clear that a change made only a couple of months ago and to which many editors are raising objections now that they know about it can be taken as a "clear and long-standing consensus." Raymond Arritt 19:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why it would be a contradiction in terms. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Because "scholarly literature" carries a strong connotation of peer review; see e.g., . Raymond Arritt 21:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The page was protected in good faith by Elinor. It shouldn't have been edited at all; Ais, I think, felt s/he was reverting to be helpful in order to resolve a dispute, and that should be treated as good faith as well. But reverting to the exact version at the time of Elinor's edit is preferable. While four days is generally too long, it seems a good time frame in this case, to allow discussion.

"Journalist" has been gone for some time (though it obviously has some support in the history). "Scholarly and non-scholarly" is a recent innovation, which has little support. We should work out these things before the protection expires. Marskell 20:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly and non-scholarly is not a recent innovation, obviously, because journalists aren't scholarly sources, and you're saying the journalists thing had support several months ago. What you want to do (prioritize the use of scholars, and allow non-scholarly sources only where scholarly ones aren't available) is the recent innovation, and it's a serious violation of NPOV. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The words "scholarly or non-scholarly" are, in fact, a recent innovation. Did it exist on V before April? I don't recall it, but I'm willing to be corrected. As it stands, virtually no one commenting agrees with it.

Meanwhile, our NPOV pseudoscience wording has stood for six years (about twice as long as either of us has been editing). "...prioritize the use of scholars, and allow non-scholarly sources only where scholarly ones aren't available..." Absolutely not. "I'm using this because it's the only source available" is one of the worst arguments going, and I'd never, ever sanction it. Marskell 20:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Marskell, are you trying to mislead people deliberately? You e-mailed part of a quote to me yesterday, and I returned the full quote to you, because you were taking words out of context. You wrote: "'The task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view' is long-standing policy wording." In fact, the full quote from NPOV/FAQ is in a section devoted only to pseudoscience, and it says:

The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories.

And that is correct: the majority view is represented as such, and the minority view is represented as such. Neither is simply left out. Now are you saying the policy says: "prioritize the use of scholars, and allow non-scholarly sources only where scholarly ones aren't available..."? If so, where does it say that? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Ya Slim, I'm trying to mislead people deliberately.

Last first, I posted above that I would never sanction "when not available" wording. I've had the "but I have to use the blog because there's nothing else" conversations. In practice, people are going to use X if there is no Y in a variety of situations, but we should not place wording of that sort in.

On the pseudoscience wording—yes, that is correct. It defines majority with science in brackets and asks us "to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories." Why? Because we don't and shouldn't care about how soccer moms and WSJ Republicans have received the theory of evolution when describing the theory of evolution itself. Scientic theory qua scientific theory should be described with scientific sources because "scientific theories promulgated outside these media are not properly verifiable as scientific theories and should not be represented as such."

To remove that NPOV wording as you attempted and add "scholarly or non-scholarly" without qualification here would lead to people define "majority" and "minority" in the raw—as a matter of popularity—rather than wrt to reception within the discipline in question. Thus, the Evolution article, one might argue, ought to have a large section devoted to Intelligent design and another devoted to Biblical literalism. Most emphatically, it should not. Now, of course, we have pages on Intelligent design and Biblical literalism, socio-religious phenomena of note that are entirely worthy of articles and should take reliable sources just as Evolution itself should.

This is not an inconsistent position; it is, as I've told you, best practice on a number of articles. I have asked you thrice and will ask you again: what is the area of science that you edit where you feel it would be useful to remove the distinction between scholarly and non-scholarly? Marskell 10:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I still don't know what you're saying. You wrote above: "Meanwhile, our NPOV pseudoscience wording has stood for six years (about twice as long as either of us has been editing). '...prioritize the use of scholars, and allow non-scholarly sources only where scholarly ones aren't available...'". Are you saying this quote is in a policy somewhere; if so, where? Or are you referring to this quote: "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories." Because if the latter, (a) it is about pseudoscience only; and (b) it anyway does not support your interpretation.

It is misleading of you to go around claiming that the NPOV policy has contained your view for six years, when in fact it has never contained your view, and almost certainly never will. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

This is genuinely confusing. I placed "prioritize the use of scholars, and allow non-scholarly sources only where scholarly ones aren't available" because you had placed it in brackets to (mis)represent my opinion in your post of 20:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC). Do you see that? I won't reply further because I don't think this is being understood. (Though my offer that you provide an example of an area of science you edit that shouldn't have a distinction between scholarly and non-scholarly still stands.) Marskell 06:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

It is possible that Factory farming and Talk:Factory farming may answer your question. WAS 4.250 11:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the "scholarly or non-scholarly" wording is not supported by the broad consensus of this talk page. Tim Vickers 23:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

A number of users who are editing the article St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide) have used the College Roll to demonstrate the attendance of certain individuals at the college. The roll is where students sign up to the college (actually a residential institution). A particular user claims that this use is not acceptable. Any comments from other users? Ozdaren 12:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly a reliable primary source. Blueboar 14:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ozdaren, this is a difficult one, and it would depend how the source was being used. First, it may not be notable that the individuals attended that college. Secondly, they may only have registered, then left. Third, they may not be the same individuals you think you're writing about. If there's an objection, it's always better to find a secondary source, particularly if it concerns living persons. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments.Ozdaren 05:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

Is accessibility part of the WP:V policy? I am presently trying to collaborate with another editor about the meaning of a word. I am relying upon the definition and etymology provided in the Oxford English Dictionary. Yet I am told that because the online access to the OED is by subscription, or by membership in a library which has a subscription, the OED is therefore not accessible to some editors and therefore not verifiable per WP:V. Also, the OED is not physically available in a convenient local library to some editors. What is the WP:V policy about this? SaltyBoatr 14:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Such a requirement is plainly absurd, of course, and it's not in the policy. BTW, I think it is reasonable to ask an editor to explain exactly what his source says, or possibly to request a precise quotation (there is a handy template for that ^{[need quotation to verify]}). It might make sense to mention this in the policy.--Anonymous44 14:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Note that you can cut and paste from the online OED. I would add that much of the online stuff is in draft; it may be better to cite the Second Edition, if it differs. That is, of course, in print; and is an eminently reliable source (and available at many public libraries). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks I have initially refrained from cutting and pasting from a copyrighted dictionary. I still am not sure this is legal, and have asked for permission over here. SaltyBoatr 15:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources must be published; easy accessability is not a requirement but we are not required to believe a contributor's claim that a source says what he says it says if there is evidence to support doubt. Sources must reliable but reliability is relative - an expert in a peer reviewed respected published source trumps a dictionary and a dictionary trumps an offhand comment in a newspaper. Fair use covers short quotes and statements of fact without creativity (regardless of effort expended in compiling the facts) are not covered by copyright in the first place. WAS 4.250 15:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting. I think a citation should generally be believed true until another editor checks it and fails to verify it; it's our job to check whether the claim is really present in the source. The exception should be cases where the evidence to the contrary is very hard. This would include various striking implausibilties in the citation, and/or a user apparently having lied before on Wikipedia. I did once encounter such a situation (an exceptional claim, supported with technically flawed references to a possibly non-existent journal and a possibly non-existent author, by a user who changed his/her claims several times and was clearly lying that s/he is a scholar) and I insisted on undoing the edits in question. I suppose it might be a good idea for the policy to address such cases, too. --Anonymous44 18:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There is reason to doubt the citation. In the Oxford Dictionary of Current English (published by the same people who right the OED) it says something different from what has been vaguely stated that the online version says. Which begs the question of why they are different if they are published by the same people.--LWF 18:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, there can be various reasons for this. This, alone, doesn't sound like a sufficient reason to assume that a user is lying. If you have two different sourced definitions, why not quote (precisely, not "vaguely") both versions? --Anonymous44 18:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The question is what the term, a compound word, does not mean. This involves 'proving a negative'. The Oxford English Dictionary documents 119 unique usages of the key word in the compound word term, none which match. To precisely quote the 119 entries in their entirety, I fear, would violate WP copyright policy. Reading the dictionary should be easy enough. Further, a full text search of the entire 20 volume dictionary and does find any usage of this compound word term. That is very powerful evidence that, per the OED, this compound word term is not observed by them to be standard English. SaltyBoatr 20:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually we have quoted (exactly) from other sources which I will list: Oxford Dictionary of Current English, Random House, American Heritage, WordNet, Kernerman, and Webster. These were all dismissed as 'non-Standard English', and then told that the OED is the only proper source. Whereas the other party in this dispute has made only vague references to the OED's definition.--LWF 19:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Pardon me, vague references? I have precisely pointed to a very specific entry in the Oxford English Dictionary. The problem is that you cannot, or will not, read it.

As to the other dictionaries I think they should be considered, but they all obviously carry a lighter weight. For instance, the so-called Oxford Dictionary of Current English which you quoted has only a 20 word entry for the word in question, where the Oxford English Dictionary has a 2,700 word entry. I argue that the more comprehensive dictionary with authority is more reliable. You are arguing that we should ignore the OED because you cannot, or will not, read it. SaltyBoatr 20:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

For starters, length is no indicator of higher quality, and when I say vague references I mean that you have not come up with a single quote, sentence, or paraphrase. You just keep talking about warfare and combat. And I still wonder how or why Oxford would not include definitions from all its dictionaries when making a comprehensive dictionary? Especially so when the one it supposedly doesn't contain is a compilation of the current usage of words. I would think that would be one they would make sure to include.--LWF 00:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The OED definition I am looking at is 2,700 words long. Is that 'short' in context of fair use? Also, I am concerned that my cut and paste to the talk page, to save the subscription fee for other editors, violates item #2 of the WP:Fair_Use#Policy. SaltyBoatr 16:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Without going into the detailed Wikipedia:WikiLawyering, or the value of the "powerful" OED in the semantic war, or the details of the slow-burning revert war that the one editor has carried on repeatedly while others try to mediate, it is probably valid to state just what the issue is. Namely, whether or not "Hunting weapon" is a valid expression in the English language. State, Federal, and International usages of the term "hunting weapon" have been offered, but found wanting, relative to the "powerful" OED by the one editor. Comments by requested 3rd-party inputs from the WP:LOCE have also indicated that "hunting weapon" is in common usage, but have been found lacking relative to the "powerful" OED. Also, when presented with "lesser" dictionaries and published regulatory "bad grammar" usages of the term "weapon" that in no way require only combat or warfare relative to the term "weapon", the one editor claims that the OED trumps all these other reliable and verifiable sources, while also stating that only the 2,700 word definition of the OED is acceptable for Wikipedia usage, and that "weapon" implies only combat or warfare. Yet, when asked what part it is of the OED definition that disallows this combined terminology, of "hunting" plus "weapon", no direct quote is provided. I don't think anyone believes the OED is not reliable; however, one editor's interpretation of the OED is certainly at issue, especially when other editors can't check the definition without purchasing a $295 subscription for one year, or for $30 for one month, from the OED online. Wikipedia is not about accepting only the OED as a reference regarding English usage of terminology. There are more sources than just the "powerful" OED that are acceptable for accomplishing verifiability when editing articles on Wikipedia. Yaf 20:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In short, Yaf argues (diff) "The OED is not presently verifiable, and so should not be used." I disagree. My offers to help Yaf find free online access to the OED have also been ignored. SaltyBoatr 21:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You have my sympathies in dealing with YAF, who is as partisan as his name suggests. But your sole point is that "Hunting weapon" does not occur under Weapon, which is really not surprising. The OED does not pretend to list every two-word phrase in the language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Though, it appears you misunderstand me. I see that that the OED is quite clear that in the vast history of English usage of the word 'weapon', almost exclusively, it is used in context of combat or warfare. Hunting is not anything close to combat or warfare. Also, hunting per the OED, is the search or pursuit, not the killing. I do grant that in modern usage, popularized by the Gun culture, the term 'hunting weapon' is acceptable. But that this is a very modern usage and is slang. My true sole point is that considering this evidence I have provided that hunting weapon is a modern slang usage, why not use a more mainstream standard English term like Hunting implement? SaltyBoatr 23:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I notice you say almost. What context is it used under the rest of the time?--LWF 00:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please read it for yourself, it is enlightening. About 80% of the 119 usages are warfare or combat. A small number are transfer, figurative or vulgar usages, like five usages for the penis being a 'weapon'. There are also transferred usages, where animal parts, like a monkey's teeth, are called weapons. Plus, the figurative usages like 'womans weapons' meaning tears. None of the 119 deal with hunting. SaltyBoatr 00:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Do any deal with injury, harm, damage, or death?--LWF 02:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It's best not to use dictionaries as sources. If you have reliable sources (books, articles) using the term "hunting weapon," then it's a valid term, whether it's in the OED or not. And SaltyBoatr, there's no indication that it's slang. Here's John Bolton, Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security: "Now, if the AR-15 is viewed as a military weapon, as opposed to a legitimate hunting weapon ...", and thousands of other sources like it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

John Bolton is both very recent and quite political; hardly the best counter-example here. This search turns up several 19th-century uses of "hunting weapon", mostly by paleontologists and archaeologists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:16, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Doing Google searches to 'prove' what is or is not standard English is a bad idea. Google is more of a database, returning all forms of English indiscriminately, including misspellings, slang, and minor varients. The people at Oxford English Dictionary are scholars, methodologically working to document English language usages. They are authorities and carry more weight. Your personal research using searches on Google falls far short in comparison. SaltyBoatr 15:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this discussion belongs over on Talk:Hunting weapon, but: I grant that 'hunting weapon' is common in a subset of English that used by the Gun culture. John Bolton is a famous gun rights activist, so it is no surprise he is using this subset of English. My question is, considering that Wikipedia is global: Should Wikipedia use Gun culture English when standard English options exist? Looking to the Oxford English Dictionary seems the obvious thing to do to establish what is standard English. Looking to speeches made by NRA activists, even if they are also government officials, does nothing to prove standard English. SaltyBoatr 15:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Some low minimum bar of accessibility is justifiable and would be beneficial in my opinion. If a source is so obscure and hard to find that verification is inordinately difficult, then theoretical verifiability is not much use. I am reminded of a case where someone cited "The Evening Star of Auckland" - a long defunct New Zealand paper - for a controversial claim. A catalog search indicated that archives of this newspaper existed in only a handful of libraries in the entire world. The paper may have had a splendid reputation for fact-checking in its day, but there was no realistic way to check the citation. (I believe a different source was later provided for the claim.) I think it is sensible to say that long out-of-print materials not generally available in university libraries should not be accepted as the sole sources for a fact. There may be other materials that have extremely limited circulation but would otherwise seem to qualify as reliable sources, but I can't think of any. nadav (talk) 08:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that the accessibility issue is indirectly covered here: WP:ATT#Wikipedia articles must be based on reliable sources, with the most reliable sources being 'mainstream' and 'known', therefore I conclude that 'obscure sources' are less reliable. In my specific case, the OED is most reliable. SaltyBoatr 16:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

SB, it's almost never appropriate to use a dictionary to determine usage. We look at whether and how reliable sources use a term, not dictionaries. There was an RfAr about this once, when someone tried to use a dictionary to define "capitalism." It's clearly an odd thing to do, when the way the term is used by political theorists and economists is so readily available to us. People who write dictionaries can't be experts on every term they write about. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Newspaper articles and dictionaries and peer reviewed expert sources are all reliable sources for some claims. Slim, at WP:ATT we debated the phrase "reliable for the claim" and you said the phrase was not understandable to you. Maybe so. But none-the-less chosing one source over another based on which is more reliable for the claim being sourced is in fact a critical distinction and at the heart of our disagreement at Talk:Factory farming over proper sourcing for the definition of the term "factory farming". An expert in a peer reviewed respected published source trumps a dictionary and a dictionary trumps an offhand comment in a newspaper. WAS 4.250 03:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to carry the FF discussion here, but as we noted there, and SlimVirgin noted above, dictionaries are rarely considered good sources for usage of terms. The reasons are several, but the most important is that effective definitions of terms is determined by real world usage, in the specific context. Dictionaries are staffed by people who scan the literature and media, and collect information; they are essentially a tertiary source, like us, and in general we stay away from tertiary sources. We need to find the specific articles that relate to our specific topic, and glean the definition from there. So the definition of capitalism should come from relevant papers and books about it, not from dictionaries. Crum375 04:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Crum375 wrote: "...dictionaries are rarely considered good sources for the usage of terms." Astonishing. Isn't that the point of dictionaries, to study and document the usage of terms? See for instance the statement of purpose in the OED 2nd Edition "The aim of this Dictionary is to present in alphabetical series the words that have formed the English vocabulary from the time of the earliest records down to the present day, with all the relevant facts concerning their form, sense-history, pronunciation, and etymology." Clearly, this dictionary is intended as a resource to learn the usage of terms. SaltyBoatr 20:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

Can an web archived source be used, when there is a superseding that would appear to contradict it? The case in point is as follows:

The Web Archive source is as follows:

16 April 1999

Leonard Peltier has now spent twenty-three years in prison. Amnesty International considers Peltier to be a political prisoner whose avenues to legal redress have long been exhausted. The US Government has repeatedly denied requests for a special executive review. Amnesty International recognizes that a retrial is no longer a feasible option and believes that Peltier should be immediately and unconditionally released.

Now, from a AI Bulletin on April 30, 1999

USA: Amnesty International calls for release of Leonard Peltier [News Service 080/99, 27 April 1999]. Amnesty International is not able to take a position regarding Leonard Peltier's guilt or innocence, and does not consider him a prisoner of conscience, but has decided to call for his release from prison because of continuing doubts about the fairness of the legal proceedings against him. A retrial no longer seems a feasible option.

Now, an AI July 15, 2007 statement:

Amnesty International has investigated this case for many years. Although Amnesty International has not adopted Leonard Peltier as a prisoner of conscience, the organization remains concerned about the fairness of the proceedings leading to his conviction and believes that political factors may have influenced the way in which the case was prosecuted.

I suppose my question would be, can we use a dead link as a source stating that AI believes Leonard Peltier to be a political prisoner, even when the source is no longer active, and material published at a later date would indicate that AI takes the opposite position?

Thanks. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Your sources indicate that AI's position on Leonard Peltier status as a political prisoner is unclear. Say so and use all three sources as your reference. WAS 4.250 16:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Would not the two more recent statements, where they do not take the position that he is a PP or PoC, be the current position of AI considering that the first link has been taken down by AI? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to say that when using the same source, the most recent info/opinion that source has regarding a person or issue is the one to go with.--MONGO 20:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Only if there is clear evidence that the source is not divided against itself. The differences in opinion may not be temporal in origin. WAS 4.250 22:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I would probably refer to all three statements. It would be worth looking around to see whether a secondary source has written about how Amnesty changed its mind within the space of two weeks. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Note that it is quite possible that "political prisoner" and "prisoner of conscience" are not the same thing. AI affirms the first and denies the second. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, good point. I suppose that's the danger of relying on primary sources: we don't really know what they meant. Could be the first statement was a mistake by an intern or something. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I searched AmnestyUSA; according to their FAQ, these are both technical terms.

• Prisoners of Conscience (POCs) are people detained solely because of their beliefs or because of their ethnic origin, sex, color, language, national or social origin, economic status, birth, or other status who have not used or advocated violence.
• A political prisoner is anyone whose imprisonment is politically motivated. Perhaps the "crime" is politically motivated; perhaps the arrest, trial, or sentence has political undertones.

It is perfectly reasonable to hold that Peltier is one but not the other; he is not detained solely because of his beliefs etc. (Whether he used violence is part of the controversy.) The end of the third quote above virtually repeats the definition of political prisoner. Since the source is not inconsistent, we need not analyze further. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• Well spotted. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

All of you know better than to continue edit warring on a locked page. Stop doing it. WilyD 20:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please see User talk:David Levy#WP:SOURCE. I'm baffled as to why SlimVirgin objects to a dummy edit and believes that we're required to retain an incorrect Dutch interwiki link (and no protection tag) for the protection's duration. —David Levy 21:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Because, a) it is protected, and b) it is always protected on the wrong version. Please note that SlimVirgin notes that the protected version is not her preferred version. I will request the protecting Admin to apply the tag. LessHeard vanU 21:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I'm referring to a minor correction that has absolutely nothing to do with the dispute. Per the protection policy, those are allowed. Why in the world wouldn't they be?

There was a protection tag in place, and SlimVirgin inexplicably responded to my dummy edit by removing it and once again reverting to the incorrect Dutch interwiki link. —David Levy 21:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It is now tagged, by the protecting Admin. While there may be legitimate edits outside of the disputed areas it may be considered a more chilled attitude to permit these indiscetions to remain while the disputed matter is sorted out. If there is an absolute need to edit something which does not impinge on the dispute then why not get consensus on the talkpage before performing it - it would certainly clarify if it is not part of the disputed content for a start - and not potentially inflame the matter. Cheers. LessHeard vanU 21:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's absurd. I understand that SV was probably under the influence of a WP:MASTODON effect (the previous admin who edited the page, mistakenly but mostly due to a coincidence, also suffered her wrath); but I don't understand LessHeard vanU's reaction.--Anonymous44 21:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Uncontraversial changes may sometimes be made to protected pages. When these changes result in edit warring, they're not uncontraversial, and they have to stop immeadiately. Edit warring is bad. Edit warring on a protected page is double plus bad - it's wheel warring. Fixing shitty grammer or correcting an interwiki link are not noble purposes worth wheel warring over - and the world won't end if those tasks aren't done today. WilyD 21:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

There was no edit warring. It would have been edit warring if somebody had been reverting his edit on purpose, but the impression made was that it was a side-effect of the other reverts. When it became clear that SV was doing it on purpose, he stopped. --Anonymous44 22:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly right.  :-) —David Levy 22:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and I didn't change the interwiki link since it became apparent that SlimVirgin objected to its correction. I don't, however, understand why she objected to its correction, let alone to a dummy edit (to which she responded, for some reason, by reverting to the incorrect interwiki link and removing the protection tag). —David Levy 22:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

(Resetting indent)This may be partly my fault. I forgot to add the tag. That is now rectified. The tag says "until disputes have been resolved". It doesn't look as if disputes are any closer to being resolved right now, so I have made it indefinite. That doesn't mean infinite. I don't think it's a good idea for pages to remain locked for long, long periods, and I'm more than happy to unprotect as soon as the people here feel they've come to some kind of consensus — even a grudging one. Or request unprotection at WP:RfPP. It would be nice if the page could be unprotected as soon as I originally envisaged, or sooner.

I don't think admins should edit over protection, except to correct things like obvious spelling mistakes — but not to make edits that other editors will disagree with. Regarding the Dutch interwiki link, the article, in the version I locked it in, has nl:Wikipedia:Bronvermelding. If you go there, and click on the English interwiki link, it will take you to Wikipedia:Citing sources. I checked the interwiki link that David was changing to, which is nl:Wikipedia:Verifieerbaarheid, and that links back to this Verifiability page. Therefore, I think that's an uncontroversial change. If people agree, I'm happy to make that change, as an uninvolved administrator, who protected the page, but only if I'm sure that there's no dispute over that. (Actually, I am fairly sure.)

Regarding the shortcut, I haven't figured out what's going on. If it's an uncontroversial change, I'd be happy to make it, but I really think it should come from the talk page first, rather than an admin deciding to make a change, and other admins objecting. Again, my apologies for forgetting to add the tag. ElinorD (talk) 21:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Elinor, I have no problem with interwiki links or tags being fixed. My concern is that David kept changing what the shortcut should direct to, which is something that has been in dispute. Admins must not edit protected pages if the issue is one that someone is objecting to; otherwise there's no point in protecting it. The current version is not one that I want either, but that doesn't give me the right to change it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to assume that there's no controversy over the interwiki tag, and I'll change it myself. To avoid a repeat of the flurry of edits after the protection, I ask that if anyone thinks I shouldn't have done it, please let me know, rather than reverting, an I'll revert myself. There does seem to be a dispute over the tag, so I won't touch that. If there's anything else that there's agreement about, please let me know. If it's something small, I'll do it; and if you've all come to some kind of agreement over the main dispute, I'll unprotect. ElinorD (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please see User talk:David Levy#WP:SOURCE and [[Talk:WP:SOURCE]] for an explanation of the shortcut issue. I was correcting documentation that became outdated when SlimVirgin mass-reverted the page, not changing the actual shortcut. SlimVigin, however, has since changed the actual shortcut and convinced me that her setup is preferable. —David Levy 22:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I merely edited the page to correctly indicate the shortcut's purpose. I DID NOT EDIT THE SHORTCUT, which had led to that section without complaint from you or anyone else for the past week. Until you complained and edited the shortcut (which I made no attempt to revert), there was absolutely no indication that this was a disputed matter.

If you didn't object to the correction of the interwiki link, why did you revert it (and remove the protection tag)? —David Levy 22:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

May be its they work toghter. I dont think its good to do that to much because sometimes it can be like admins are trying to get arount the 3RR rule. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Practical Pig (talk • contribs) 21:54, 29 June 2007.

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

I'd like to open up a discussion about including a section in the self-published sources section that allows them to be used for pop culture articles. This was something that editors wanted to add to WP:ATT, but it was vetoed by others. I always felt that was a mistake. How would people feel about adding it to this page?

Some articles about popular culture rely on self-published posts on bulletin boards, blogs, and Usenet, because few other sources exist for them. In such cases, the material used must have been posted by named, or well-known pseudonymous, individuals with a known expertise in the area, although the individual need not be a professional in a relevant field. Anonymous posts should never be used. Some areas of popular culture also rely on self-published secondary sources, such as well-known fansites. If in doubt about how to use a source in this area, consult the relevant WikiProjects for advice. This provision does not apply to material about living persons, or to topics in other areas, such as history, science, religion, literature, or current affairs.

SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. JulesH 07:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

If we caveat both aspects of topics, as well as topics themselves, I can live with inclusion. "This provision does not apply to material about living persons, or to topics in other areas, such as history, science, religion, literature, or current affairs." OK, and perhaps add something like "even within popular culture articles, quotations, statistics, and judgements of quality or popularity, should take reliable sources as otherwise defined by policy. If sources cannot be found, such information should not be added." This would allow pop cult editors to describe "in-universe" aspects of topics with less than ideal sources, as they are often wont to do, but not allow an editor to declare such-and-such the greatest video game ever with a dubious source. Marskell 07:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

It's often on these specialist websites that you'll find reviews and comparisons. If we say they can't use quotations, statistics, or judgements of quality or popularity, the resulting articles will be deadly dull. The proposal is to allow appropriate sources for popular culture as we do in every other area, so that those editors can create good articles, not shallow ones. Well, they do that already. They just ignore this policy. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What I worry about is the dentist problem—two out of three agree that every toothpaste on the market is the best one available. Fansites, by definition, laud their subject and often make exaggerated claims; it's "...one of the greatest ever..."-type wording that I find deadly dull on pop culture.

While I was busy ensuring ATT would fail, I did in fact present "aspects of" wording that you found amendable, here. I do think it better to focus on the type of information involved, rather than make an exception for a broad category of article (the definition of which is far from clear-cut).

But I rarely edit in this area. I know some of our best pop cult editors don't ignore policy but wind up agreeing with it because they want to improve their articles and actively seek out reliable sources that are neither commercially tied to their subject nor weak fan writing. Marskell 12:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Sounds good to me. I used a couple of sources where I had to give some pretty good rationale as to why I'm using them, but they have improved the article(s) twentyfold. As long as we make the playing field clear, it should be fine. — Deckiller 13:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• I have some problem with the wording "Some articles about popular culture". What does "some" mean? pop culture topics that have few "reliable" sources about them? There are some pop culture articles where there are plenty of newspaper, magazine, and other fairly reliable sources. If at all possible, we should strive to to use these sources. If a topic really lacks such reliable sources (enough sources to demonstrate notability of the topic), then it may simply not be notable enough or worth including in Wikipedia? In some cases that might be the better alternative to going out and relying on bulletin board posts, usenet posts, and blogs. --Aude (talk) 14:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• I assume SlimVirgin is referring to this discussion that involved a relatively small number of editors. I'm rather puzzled by the suggested wording and where it might fit into the policy page without sounding totally contradictory. It reads more like an admission of failure than a guideline. To mockingly paraphrase:

Some articles on WP break our fundamental and long cherished policies on using reliable sources. But that's ok. We know how hard it can be to stick to the rules. Just stay away from the articles read by adults, please.

(please read this with a sense of humour)

SlimVirgin asks how we'd feel about this: very worried indeed. WP's sources are its foundation. Pop culture is a huge part of WP. This proposal undermines that foundation in a big way. BTW: I'm a newbie wrt to policy but hang around WP:FLC so I've seen plenty good pop culture articles that are based on reliable sources. If this exclusion is allowed, I'm going to end up seeing:

This list meets WP:V because it is based on Derek's geocities web site. His site rocks and is totally respected.

Sigh. Colin°^Talk 19:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that formulation is pretty good, SlimVirgin. One suggestion would be that for any "well-known" fansites or blogs to be used, these should have been mentioned in reliable sources, such as magazines or newspapers. This would put a crimp on the "Well we all know about Derek's geocities web site" argument. Tim Vickers 19:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The phrase "According to Wikipedia..." appears in the press with depressing regularity. If such a well-known unreliable source can be mentioned so frequently, what makes you think they can be used as a judge of internet sites? Colin°^Talk 22:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• The meme problem mentioned by Marskell in the previous discussion worth repeating. These sites, keen to show how in-depth their knowledge is, feed off each other. A "fact" then gains currency by being mentioned in multiple places, when actually there was only one dodgy source. The most serious version of this is the tendency for amateur sites to use Wikipedia as a source. Not only is it considered reliable, but you can nick the text with a clean conscience. I've come across numerous personal web sites that use Wikipedia text. Sometimes credited, sometimes not. Let's add an obscure fact to Wikipedia: "XYZ was released on DVD in France in October 2005 with subtitles and a 4:3 aspect ratio." A few months later, I can probably source this fact to a "well-known fan site". Colin°^Talk 22:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

If it is possible to take something that is self-published, but reliable and reasonably trust worthy, as a source, then I'm all for it. There are "fan websites" that are professionally run, and are anything but Joeshmoe's geocities website. They are technically self-published, but are as respectable and reliable as a published source. Website such as http://animenewsnetwork.com , where a good many anime reviews are found. One way or another, we'll need to find a way to use these sources in an acceptable fashion for Wikipedia. Soon it won't be just pop-culture that is effected by such things, but many other topics we cover.

Maybe we need to really look at this at the fundamental level. Given the reasons we stay away from self-published sources, what can we do to validate the ones we need, and how do we determine which ones are even respectable, etc. -- Ned Scott 06:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Such as, a somewhat strict criteria for said websites. -- Ned Scott 06:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Verifying the individual

I'm just going to pull out one sentence of Tim's to unpack it: "One suggestion would be that for any "well-known" fansites or blogs to be used, these should have been mentioned in reliable sources, such as magazines or newspapers." I had three principal problems with the exception (noted in part in Colin's link). One was the circular logic involved: if the whole reason that Usenet is not reliable is because we cannot ascertain who posted what where, how can we ascertain that "named, or well-known pseudonymous, individuals with a known expertise in the area" are behind the material? The qualification continues to beg the question. Thus I think wording similar to Tim's would be appropriate. Everybody's favourite example was Spoo, a FA which uses Usenet as a source. Thus the requirement would not be that you have to source the particular fact to a reliable magazine or newspaper, only the general fact that the individual involved did in fact use the medium. If "everybody knows" that one of the developers of Spoo used Usenet, source that to a reliable magazine etc., and then you can use Usenet for the specifics in the article.

That's one of three. Two of three: how are we defining pop cult? This is obviously of importance. Three of three: this does create dual standards, however you look at it. While we need to be sensitive to the editors who desire the exception, the reverse problem will likely occur: threads here to the effect of "when the heck did this happen?" Marskell 13:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the answer that you are going to find it hard (impossible) to define a general rule, it needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In one area a fan site will be a respectable tome, another far more unreliable. Yet within either, some stuff will be good quality, other stuff poor. Perhaps that is the only wording: Where reference is made to non-scholarly sources, especially informal publications such as fansites or blogs, a judgement needs to be made as to the quality of the site and therefore the value of the citation on a case by case basis. It is not just a problem for blogs, it is for newspapers, USA Today is probably a less worthy source than the Herald Tribune, The Sunday Sport less than The Independent. Spenny 16:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

Articles about such sources should not repeat any potentially libelous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.

I'm a bit (a lot!) concerned about that wording. It has the implication that if you can find someone in a reliable source making a libellous claim then it is quite OK to spread the libel through Wiki. If it is truly libellous then you simply cannot repeat the claim, you are party to that libel. Newspapers and TV do not use the fact that another paper has published a claim to allow them to use that claim. They will couch the reporting of the problem in the most careful language. Worse, in UK law the burden is on the one committing the libel to prove that it is not libellous. I think this needs some serious review - I'd go as far as to suggest a real Wiki-Lawyer review that text.

I suggest:

Articles about such sources should not repeat any potentially libelous claims the source has made about third parties, even if those claims have been published by reliable sources. Spenny 10:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's a bad sentence. I have a memory of rewording it, or perhaps I only intended to. The problem with the one you suggest in its place is that editors aren't in a position to judge what's potentially libelous: if the NYT sees fit to publish something that is potentially libelous after extensive discussion with some of the most expensive libel lawyers in the world, it would be odd for us to assume we knew better. Also, BLP has moved on since that sentence was added, so it's no longer appropriate anyway (bad sources may never be used for living persons, whether the claim is contentious/libelous or not). I suggest the wording we had in an early version of WP:ATT:

A questionable source is one with no editorial oversight or fact-checking policy or with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include publications that are widely acknowledged as extremist; or that rely heavily on rumors, satire, or personal opinions. Questionable sources may only be used in articles about themselves; these articles should not repeat claims the source has made about third parties unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources, which must be cited.

SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Good points, in fact most critical statements about living people could be interpreted as "potentially" libellous. Asking editors to consider this is particularly complicated in that they would have to check if the material might be objectionable under the libel laws of any country in which Wikipedia might be prosecuted. This is an impossible task to ask of an editor, and an extremely difficult one even for a experienced lawyer. Tim Vickers 21:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest (after a couple of beers) that the real libellous stuff is fairly obvious. The main point is to say: don't believe you can repeat a libel just because someone else said it. (colon intended!) Spenny 23:10, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

...but more to the point, I would assume a Wiki policy that says "users must not repeat libel" would be more defensible in court for the Foundation than a policy that says "users may repeat libel if they've read it somewhere reputable." That may not ultimately be a useful defence, but it is worth running past the real lawyers. With regard to SV's prior version, it still has the implication that if someone else says it then we can say it. That is not the way UK law works. We must at least strive for plausible deniability in policy, reliable sources will sometimes make libellous claims. I think there is some wording that can accept good faith repetition of the "slightly possibly" libellous without the assertion that relying on a third party absolves us of being libellous. Seriously, having being threatened with libel over a trivial matter in the real world, I suggest a proper legal wording is required here. Spenny 00:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

In the end, though, the problem is that to write informative articles on the subject of questionable sources, we must repeat libellous claims, because if we don't it is impossible to characterise the kinds of claims made by the source. See, e.g. The Sun, which repeats libellous claims made by that newspaper because they are part of what makes the source notable. Perhaps the section needs to make clear that such claims should not be phrased in such a way that implies they are true, but that stating they have been made by the source is acceptable. JulesH 00:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, we do have to be able to repeat in good faith negative assertions made by reputable sources. For example, if the New York Times says "Jane Crummy is a known drug addict and prostitute who sold blasting caps to terrorists", then we should be able to say so. By US standards, for a factual claim to be libelous, it must be both false and either made with malicious intent (i.e. by some who knew in advance it was false) or with reckless disregard for the truth. As long as the claim is traceable to identified reliable sources, one will generally avoid any risk of being found to have been reckless with the truth. In the US at least, as long as it is prefixed with "According to the New York Times", you can pretty much repeat anything they say with zero risk of libel liability. Dragons flight 00:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, perhaps we have a split here between US and UK law, but recently there has been an indication that the UK courts have been used by US citizens to pursue libel under the legal framework here which is more conducive to a successful action. I think that it is important to see that there is an element of newspaper reporting to come in here where the urge to be timely undermines the useful passage of time to resolve things. I think a good example is the George Michael incident of last year, which we can talk about freely now as the facts have been discussed in court. It was widely reported that he had been found slumped over the steering wheel. The assumption was that it was drug related (a valid assumption later admitted and apologised for). At that time, it would have been inappropriate for Wiki to comment on the speculative cause of his lapse being drugs, and inappropriate to report what the newspapers were reporting as the speculative cause as it had the potential to be defamatory. There could have been an innocent explanation, some undiscovered medical condition of a private nature for example. Wiki is not a newspaper and can and should wait for clarity on such issues.

So in terms of policy, I see it as very important to have the guideline of no libel, regardless of source, especially as Wiki has such prominence these days. If people use good judgement to place the more informed speculation with solid reputable sources, then it is a judgement call, but Wiki should set itself the highest standards. Spenny 09:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see it as inappropriate to have included the speculation as long as it was clearly identified as speculation from mainstream sources. I also don't see what a guideline of "no libel" would even mean. Intentionally malicious libel (i.e. that were Wikipedians knowingly lie) is certainly already excluded, so that only leaves reckless libel. And if you have firm sources, it isn't reckless. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, doesn't anticipate having "truth" per se, but rather is only able to discuss what other reliable and verifiable sources describe as the truth. Adhering to our existing content policies should be sufficient to eliminate any threat of libel. Dragons flight 10:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

You say "I also don't see what a guideline of "no libel" would even mean." Wikipedia:Libel is already policy. WAS 4.250 10:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but that basically says that we firmly apply existing content policies to prevent defamation. I get the impression that Spenny wants something more than that (or else why discuss it?), and that's where I don't understand what he wants "no libel" to mean. I assume it is blatantly obviously that no one wants to intentionally libel others, so it is all a question of working around potential libel, for which our existing content policies seem more than adequate with respect to US law. I am realizing though that there are apparently important differences between US and UK standards for defamation. Respectfully though, I see no point in using the UK standard on a US based site, any more than I would using a German, French or Iranian standard. Dragons flight 11:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not that wedded to this to see it worth pushing further, perhaps I am being too nitpicky. Simply to repeat that my point was that we have a guideline that undermines the principle of do no evil as it suggests that if someone else says something nasty and we can prove that someone else said it, even if the circumstances are not resolved, then we can say something nasty too. In a firefight, that wording will be unhelpful, it is not really an encyclopaedic approach and is not consistent with WP:BLP. Spenny 10:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

If a mainstream, reputable organization (e.g. the New York Times) has already made the assertion, I don't see how repeating it is significantly "evil", since it is already out there and prominent. I'd agree that we wouldn't want to report claims from third tier rumor mills, but that should already be covered by the requirement of good sourcing and exceptional evidence for exceptional claims. Again, I don't think I understand what change it is you are looking for? Dragons flight 11:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll give you a current example. An important Ferrari manager has been accused of various things, including sabotage. ITV did a small presentation on their F1 coverage where it was quite clear that, whatever the facts were, it was all so murky as to be very unsafe waters to be wading in, I'll bet the lawyers were sweating over every word. Wikipedia has no obligation to be there however well based you can make that speculation. In this case it might be appropriate to say that there was a legal dispute, but it might not be appropriate to repeat the specific allegations, especially as one of the comments about the case was that the allegations were firmly denied and claimed to be part of a character assassination. Given that context, being party to continuing the disputed allegations is inappropriate.

The article Nigel Stepney covers that ground. The article as it stands is as fair reflection of the press, but given the dispute, it probably would be helpful not to repeat the disputed allegations. A newspaper article disappears in a few days, this is a semi-permanent record. A real encyclopaedia would not contemplate that kind of material. Bother, I said I was going to let it drop!! Spenny 12:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)