Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility/Archive 8

Hi. I noticed there are plently of templates with the label "disorder". I strongly suggest editing those templates to remove such label. For example, instead of "bipolar disorder" it should read only "bipolar". "Borderline personatiy disorder" should be "borderline personality". And so on.

Psychiatry tends to categorize as disorder anything that it doesn't like, ignoring the likelihood that they are not disorders at all but different ways that the brain has to work. Also, Psychiatric diagnosis many times are completely unscientific^[1] and tend to do a lot of harm to some people in their self-esteem, career, social life, and even desire to live.

You can check the article Neurodiversity and Psychiatric survivors movement for more context. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 16:50, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I have used assistive tech (text-to-speech screen reading and screen nagnification) for over 25 years. Wikipedia articles appear to have been reformatted such that the Contents panel (that typically formerly appeared after the headline article summary) has disappeared. As a severely visually impaired user (registered Blind in the UK in 1995) I have used my residual vision to quickly find the article section of interest. All articles I have accessed in the past week (since late January 2023) omit the Contents panel and hence either require me to scroll through the article or instigate a search to possibly find where my interest lies. This is very inefficient when having to use x5 magnification on a 24" screen! In the words of UK's 'Points Of View'.... "Why, oh why....?" did you have to break something that did not need fixing?....IMHO, of course.

Please bring back the shortcut-embedded Contents panel!

Sincerely,

PVR. 31/01/2023 86.20.143.27 (talk) 10:29, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

This is the new :Vector 2022 skin. There are instructions for going back to the old skin in the above link. If you'd like an account so you can go back to the old look, you can email me at grahamwpgmail.com and I can help set one up for you (and help you bypass all the CAPTCHAs. It does indeed have a new table of contents but I have no sight at all and don't used the skin so I don't know how to help you use it. Graham87 15:24, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, PVR! I'd suggest creating an account so that you can switch to the old skin and save that preference; Graham87 has given the instructions above. If you don't want to create an account, however, the Table of Contents is hidden inside a pop-up that can be opened using a hamburger button next to the page title. This is the case for screens smaller than 1000 pixels post-scaling (that is, after the page has been resized due to zoom). It seems that the accessibility of this has been questioned in the past, but no concrete solution has been found as of now. I'll copy over your message to the related issue report to give it more visibility, both to other users and to the Wikimedia Foundation employees working on the new skin. Chlod (say hi!) 17:54, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

On second glance, the linked task might only be related, not exactly the root of the issue. I'll see if this warrants a new task (should no other task for this exist) and update accordingly. Chlod (say hi!) 18:05, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I've created this Phabricator task to investigate and track this specific issue. Feel free to leave comments there, especially with your (i.e. anyone reading this') experiences with the new table of contents. Chlod (say hi!) 18:48, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I've just had more of a play with this using the information in the Phabricator task up above with JAWS and NVDA. In JAWS the button to get to the table of contents is called "Unlabelled button 0" and in NVDA it's read out as "Menu button". This is not exactly ideal. Graham87 02:18, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for filling that task and testing this out! I've sent a response in phab saying the same thing, but the missing label is definitely a regression and we will be fixing that soon. I also mentioned a few related tasks (i.e. adding a notice when the ToC is moved, ensuring the ToC is always accessible via navigation region) that the team would like to implement that should help with the concerns brought up here. Let me know if you have any other questions! BWang (WMF) (talk) 16:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Recently an open source text-to-speech engine called TorToiSe was released -- repo here -- that has much more realistic prosody (pacing, intonation) than previous TTS. The main downside is it is more computationally intensive to create recordings, about maybe four to eight hours per article on a midrange ($500-1000) GPU. I've been toying around with it, having it read Wikipedia articles, which you can listen to here as a podcast RSS feed of mp3 files. As part of that I've also been working with a few python text processing libraries to "normalize" the speech, that is, to make it easier for a TTS engine to read it without mistakes, which you can see at this github repo. The repo also has scripts to facilitate setting up a system to have TorToiSe read them. That is still a work in progress that I'm chipping away at when I have time. I just wanted to mention it someplace wikipedia-ish in case it is of interest to anyone, and to point others to it as something to be thinking about. At right this moment, TorToiSE seems to be at a sort of an odd place significantly beyond the fast-but-robotic TTS of the past, but not quite 100% to the point of a human. It seems easy to imagine, though, that in the coming years it, or something like it, could be used to generate placeholder audio files for the many unfulfilled Spoken Wikipedia Requests, until they can be read by a human. James Betker, the guy who wrote TorToiSe as a hobby is now working at OpenAI, so likely at some point there will be a more refined (and hopefully faster, and still open-source) version out in the world. xenotrope (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Are you familiar with Wikispeech ? User:Sebastian Berlin (WMSE) knows quite a bit about it and might have some interest. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:24, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the info (and the ping). Something to keep an eye on for Wikispeech. Hopefully we can add it as a TTS engine when it's fast enough. Sebastian Berlin (WMSE) (talk) 14:20, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Is there a working demo for Wikispeech? I did look at it a few days ago, and again today. Just seems to be a single demo page that said "Could not load audio" when I clicked play. xenotrope (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I've just come across the <ins> tag; WP:REDACT states that "Any inserted text should be marked with <ins>...</ins>, which renders in most browsers as underlined text, e.g., inserted".

Does the text read out in a screenreader as having been inserted? Or is it relying on the presence of a visual underline, with no semantic features, to communicate that text has been inserted?—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 20:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ineffablebookkeeper: The <ins>...</ins> and <del>...</del> tags have been part of HTML since HTML 4.0 (they were proposed for HTML 3.0 but didn't make it into the HTML 3.2 specification), which means that they have been supported by browsers for over 25 years. The present HTML 5.2 spec may be found at either W3C Recommendation, section 4.6 or WhatWG HTML Living Standard, section 4.7.

Compared to non-semantic purely visual methods like underline and strikethrough, there are at least two benefits to using the ins and del elements: (i) they have semantic meaning - screen readers will call them out as insertions and deletions; (ii) they may enclose block elements such as lists and tables. They are, in fact, the only HTML elements which may both enclose block elements and be enclosed by inline elements. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:37, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Both the main Windows screen readers, JAWS and NVDA, now support reading out ins/del elements. Graham87 02:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

It's also supported by VoiceOver/Safari on iOS (but not on macOS yet) —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Good to know all of this; I might add this to MOS:ACCESS and the relevant wikiguides that mention these tags. Thanks!—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 11:18, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I've made a personal timeline of my Wikipedia activities, which might interest some editors here because I've written about the various accessibility challenges I've had on this site over the years, among other things. Graham87 12:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Your suspicions were correct. Merci, amigo. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I've only read down to the bottom of the "Early technology access and encyclopedic experiences" section, but it's a pretty good read so far. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:03, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Graham. That's very insightful and what a great idea to write something like this down ! —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:21, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Lynx (web browser) is a browser used by blind people. In March 2023 I found I can no longer read Wikipedia with Lynx because somebody has configured Wikipedia servers to hang indefinitely on any browser connection that identifies itself as Lynx, probably because they were given mistaken advice that Lynx is a hacking tool or something. I have to set my browser to lie about what it is, which is not good practice and it makes me feel guilty about lying. Could somebody please look into this and consider unblocking the Lynx browser for accessibility, many thanks. 80.44.31.71 (talk) 08:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know of a single blind person who uses Lynx these days. They all use modern browsers. It's not even mentioned in the latest this screen reader survey by WebAIM. Graham87 15:05, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I use Lynx. WebAIM's survey is quite small and likely has a US bias. They also chose to group a bunch of browsers into an "Other" category instead of listing them. 80.44.31.71 (talk) 00:22, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi IP — I've just navigated to this page using Lynx (2.9.0dev.6, SSL-MM 1.4.1), so it doesn't appear to be an issue targeting Lynx at the very least.. — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 15:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

it's working for me again now as well. Maybe they fixed it, thanks 80.44.31.71 (talk) 00:22, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I use Microsoft Edge, and it has a text to speech option to read me articles, but it keeps mentioning the numbers of the sources, which is really irritating. I hope someone can help me here, since this is probably a problem for people with disabilities too. I would be grateful for a solution :) Ramka8707 (talk) 14:49, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Ramka8707: To remove the footnote numbers you can use User:Zhaofeng Li/RefToggle. Most blind people would get used to the footnote numbers. Graham87 15:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, it is quite shocking to me that people with disabilities have to deal with this stuff. Can I somehow escalate this to a higher authority that could potentially change the footnote problem? Thanks for your help so far :) Ramka8707 (talk) 16:49, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Ramka8707: I guess so ... see How to report a bug ... but whether it will be acted upon is another matter entirely. Blind people have as much of a right to follow footnotes as anyone else. Most of us use screen readers, which give far more control over how text is spoken/output to a refreshable Braille display than any browser's in-built text-to-speech feature ever could. Graham87 01:14, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Of course blind people have a right to follow footnotes, never said they don't, but when it comes to accessibility it would really be a great feature, if one could simply deactivate the footnotes in order to let text to speech operate, no? Thank you for the link :) Ramka8707 (talk) 07:45, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

To operate effectively on the web and life in general, blind people and heavy text-to-speech users have to get used to way more than the occasional errant number. Graham87 13:57, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

You are quite right, but we got to enact change wherever we can, right? Anyway, don't want to tie you down with my silly war here. Thank you again for the help you have given me. I am kind of new, so it feels really cool to have such good help straight away :) Ramka8707 (talk) 22:55, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

@Ramka8707: The MediaWiki software (which is what converts Wiki-markup into usable web pages) does its best to produce web pages that comply with the published recommendations for HTML. The web browser vendors should be writing their browsers in such a way that web pages are presented in a predictable manner according to those same standards, but they don't always do so. Microsoft are notorious for deviating from some of the practices that other browser vendors follow reliably. Sometimes the MediaWiki software will reluctantly introduce adjustments to handle browser quirks, and it can be a real nightmare for the developers to keep up to date with changes in published recommendations and changes in browser behaviour (there are many available most of which change several times a year), as well as ensuring that accessibility aids behave as they should. Third-party add-ons similarly need to keep up with the latest changes, but they can give a more satisfactory experience than a browser's inbuilt features.

The numbers in square brackets that are also linked and superscripted are, as far as web browsers are concerned, exactly that - they have no special meaning; they are just links to another part of the same page. Browsers don't know what references are, but they do know how to handle links; and to permit a link to be followed, they need to present the text within the link, and to distinguish one of these links from another, the MediaWiki software uses numbers.

If you really want to suppress all of the superscripted linked numbers in square brackets, you can do this by placing this CSS rule

sup.reference { display: none; }

into Special:MyPage/common.css and saving it. However, this means that you will also suppress the links to the article's sources, although the sources will still appear elsewhere on the page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:01, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

You're completely right about your points. As someone who is sighted, I'm contemplating how easily individuals with disabilities or their family members can access the information you've shared to improve their Wikipedia experience. Have you ever considered why there isn't a readily available "FAQ" with the essential resources? You and I are aware that most people tend to leave after a few clicks, since they haven't learned to navigate this space effectively. I appreciate the work you do, but I'm slightly frustrated (which isn't your fault, I know you do great work, I saw your account). Ramka8707 (talk) 23:20, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Also this question was first posted at the teahouse. Graham87 01:21, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Are there any resources, where I can learn about accessibility issues specifically for users who edit Wikipedia? For example, do some users have trouble using source editing vs. WYSIWYG editing, the Preview button, or edit summaries? What do I, as a Wikipedia editor, need to know about the challenges that my comrades might face? Mgnbar (talk) 22:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

There's a bit at m:WikiBlind User Group#Getting started as a blind editor which I helped out with. Graham87 07:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

There is a post at Wikipedia talk:Colons and asterisks#Counterpoint that could do with a well-thought-out response. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:19, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

See my post at the bottom Template_talk:Date#Make the date template emit time metadata, ensuring asscessability and allowing people to view dates in their perferred format.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MatthewUtzig (talk • contribs) 23:35, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Came across the use of {{em}} to replace italics around the scientific name for a plant species in an article (specifically Kali tragus); this is the first time I've seen it. To my mind, I wouldn't have thought of the italics used around a genus name as emphasis. Is such usage warranted?—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 10:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

@Ineffablebookkeeper: no. It's the convention here to use italics for the scientific names of organisms at the rank of genus and below. Absolutely not emphasis. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:01, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't say so, no. Graham87 15:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I think the template documentation mentions something about this, so I'll update it.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 18:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Some wikipedia articles include non-stop autoplaying gifs and/or pngs. It's usually posible to configure desktop browsers to block these. But it's not always possible to configure tablet browsers to block these.

I often use eink due to neuro issues, and with text and static images it helps, but unless I set a blurry "a2" display mode, with animation it starts rapidly flashing between white and black.

The current MOS is inadequate (and feels insulting) because it permits animations if they're no longer than 5 seconds (which is far too long) or or if they have control functions to turn them off (which may not be visible and/or operable in the middle of the blinding pain if you are even mildly affected).173.73.0.102 (talk) 06:23, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

This is (or should be) covered by MOS:ANIMATION. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

User has now raised the issue at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Animations Aren't Safe, Especially on E-Ink. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

So is there anything I can do to tag these images for replacement? 173.73.0.102 (talk) 02:37, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

“it starts rapidly flashing between white and black.” I interpret this as “the technology used makes animations even worse” and thus it is not a fundamental content issue. I think animation removal will anger people, I think replacement is not going to happen (labor isn’t free), I think there are no programmers to fix it technology wise (again labor isn’t free) and thus I don’t see a quick solution. I’m not saying your problems aren’t real, but I see no way I personally or most other editors can realistically fix this shortcoming of e-ink displays. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:19, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

This is a bit of a "throw out the baby with the bathwater" approach, but until someone comes up with something better you can use css to hide all gifs. Edit your common.css file and add the following:

img[src$=".gif"] {

display:none;

}

No guarantees that this will work in all cases, but I tried it on a few articles with good results. The downside is that it hides all gifs and you don't even see that there is supposed to be a gif there. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 16:19, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

And you need an account and have to be logged in to use this method. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Is the {{Extinct}} template (which produces †) more semantically meaningful than †, or are the two the same screenreader-wise?—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 17:17, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

No, they are not the same. The {{extinct}} template emits the following HTML:

<abbr title="Extinct" aria-label="Extinct" style="border: none; text-decoration: none; cursor: inherit; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal;">†</abbr>

- some screen reader software will pick up that title= attribute. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:25, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Thank you!—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 10:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:WikiProject banner shell § How project banners should look. DFlhb (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Especially interested in your feedback regarding the colours, specifically this design. DFlhb (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Note that there is now an RfC on the matter, which everyone here is invited to. DFlhb (talk) 19:28, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

• Here's the link to the RfC mentioned above: Template talk:WikiProject banner shell#RFC. - 47thPennVols (talk) 22:01, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Someone posted at the help desk about problems they are having accessing Wikipedia using a screen reader: Wikipedia:Help_desk#Lack_of_Access. Maybe someone here has relevant expertise? -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I replied there a little earlier before noticing this message. Graham87 05:49, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

So (Warning re: epilepsy) autostereogram has a rapidly flashing image on it right at the top of page. Yeah. I don't have epilepsy, but I was still shocked by that thing just starting to animate outta nowhere when randomly navigating there.

I suspect an IP deleting content might provoke a revert from an overly enthusiastic vandalism patroller so hopefully someone doesn't mind doing the needful. Might also not hurt to put some kind of note or editnotice about animations and link to the accessibility guidelines since that's a page that will always attract well-meaning but unaware people looking to add animated content there for visualizing the effect. 47.155.41.201 (talk) 08:44, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Regarding Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Archive 14#Template:IPA vowels: Template:IPA vowels/accessible has been sent to TfD. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2023 August 7#Template:IPA vowels/accessible. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Fractions in category names. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I am mediating a content dispute at DRN concerning the display of the scores of football. One of the issues is that one of the editors states that some of the templates that are being used to display club seasons does not comply with the accessibility guidelines. Here is how I am asking for assistance from this project. I would like to request an experienced editor to look at the dispute, and either say that some of the templates that we are using are not access-compliant, or that the templates that we are using do satisfy the accessibility guidelines. The editors with the accessibility issue can come to this project page and present their cases, or it would be useful if an experienced editor who is familiar with accessibility joined in the discussion at DRN. Thank you in advance for any help you can give. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I've started a discussion about incorporating (parts of) MOS:ACCESS into GACR at the GAN talk page. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 16:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I started a discussion at Talk:The X Factor#Table under "The X Factor around the world" is not accessible to screen reader users. As the talk page seems pretty dormant and I have had no replies, I thought I'd mention it here to see what could be done about it if anything. KaraLG84 (talk) 21:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

See Template talk:Val#Screen reader problems with digits grouped by spaces in this template, in which I discover that the problem really isn't with that template at all but a JAWS/Chrome bug. There's nothing we can do about it here so this is just an FYI. Graham87 (talk) 11:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility/FAQ and common pitfalls

Graham87 (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Visually impaired visitors need a heading at level 1 placed where content begins. On every Wikipedia page, there are a series of links, at best only remotely related, to the topic before the actual content begins. It forces visually impaired people to waste time arrowing around for each article's true beginning. 108.54.91.238 (talk) 21:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

As a fellow screen reader user, I can confirm that this indeed occurs with the new theme/skin, Vector 2022 because the heading is in a different position in the HTML (which better reflects how sighted people see the page). The easiest way to get around this is to press a key to move to the next block of non-link text (usually n) after going to the first-level heading. However, if you want the old Wikipedia look back, I can create an account for you and help you revert to an older Wikipedia skin. If this is what you would like, email me at grahamwp@gmail.com and I can take it from there. Graham87 (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I just read this wikiproject page and perused the talk page. Are there guidelines for formatting to accommodate users who might have low vision issues (not actually blind, and not using any accommodative technology)?

I have poor eyesight (that's all I'm going to say on it) and, as examples, I like a lot of whitespace (glossary style rather than bulleted lists which present as walls of text), no unnecessary table formats (difficult to edit), and simpler images which show the subject (rather than 'busy' images which contain the subject but are hard to distinguish).

I haven't found any policies that suggest these ideas. Currently I'm dealing with swapping out images for better, simpler ones, but occasionally run into someone who wants to keep their favorite photos on display. A policy would be nice to support my changes.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 02:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

All that immediately comes to mind is having accessibility via CSS to increase font size and contrast and to use SVG where appropriate, so it can be infinitely magnified with no loss of clarity. It would probably be nice if we had collections of user scripts that enhance visibility... ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm curious if there is a Wikipedia-specific tool/gadget people can use to check a page's accessibility. I know other communities have specific tools/gadgets to make their jobs easier. For example, Did You Know...? (DYK), has something that with a single click analyzes the page for various factors to help determine eligibility for DYK. There's also the Edward Betts 'tool' for finding links to articles (often used to help orphaned articles) or check I'm wondering if there's something similar so users can quickly check the accessibility of a page and learn how to fix it, kind of like the "Check accessibility" feature in Microsoft Word. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 20:44, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I had the same question. I looked at https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey9/?hss_channel=tw-2382446636 and picked VoiceOver, as it was readily available to me. YMMV. RudolfoMD (talk) 09:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I came up with a great way to convey that a drug has a critical FDA-mandated black-box warning: the word "Warning" in a black box. See User:RudolfoMD/sandbox2. Great for sighted folks, that is. Is there a way to specify alt text for the math tag to be used or otherwise make the warning more accessible? Didn't find anything at Help:Displaying a formula; could use some guidance. I want to add this to so it appears in the infobox of hundreds of articles. T.I.A. RudolfoMD (talk) 09:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Math has hidden MathML, which most screenreaders can handle and read out. And they will do that for this too. Please do not use math for decoration purposes. Just write a template with CSS styling. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:21, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. No clue how to do that (CSS styling), but I could try to figure it out or seek help. It was interesting to look at the source though, and gave me another idea.

The source that displays the math (in my browser) at its core is just an image with alt text. We could use the image and improve the alt text. Like <a href="/wiki/Boxed_warning">...<img src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/1735879add6c04cad562b5f3646d25a4ddf3d8bb" ... aria-hidden="true" ... alt="WARNING"></a>. I can do that. Seem reasonable?

(Also interesting that the image is an SVG containing alt text:

aria-labelledby="MathJax-SVG-1-Title">

<title id="MathJax-SVG-1-Title">{\displaystyle {\begin{array}{|}\hline W\!ARNING\\\hline \end{array}}}</title>

<defs aria-hidden="true">

I wonder if good internal alt text makes separate alt text unnecessary; I presume that's the idea. edit: Nah. Alt probably better for lynx. )

-R

More information The whole source (only possibly worth reading, and so collapsed and thus certainly not worth the effort of beautifully formatting it but wikignome Redrose64 did so anyway :-) ). (I wonder if a template exists/could be made to such problems without the use of the obscure syntaxhighlight thing. Seems like it; can't tell.) ...

The whole source (only possibly worth reading, and so collapsed and thus certainly not worth the effort of beautifully formatting it but wikignome Redrose64 did so anyway :-) ). (I wonder if a template exists/could be made to such problems without the use of the obscure syntaxhighlight thing. Seems like it; can't tell.)

<a href="/wiki/Boxed_warning" title=""><span class="mwe-math-element"><span class="mwe-math-mathml-inline mwe-math-mathml-a11y" style="display: none;"><math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" alttext="{\displaystyle {\begin{array}{|}\hline W\!ARNING\\\hline \end{array}}}"> <semantics> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mstyle displaystyle="true" scriptlevel="0"> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mtable columnalign="" rowspacing="4pt" columnspacing="1em" rowlines="" columnlines="" frame="solid"> <mtr> <mtd> <mi>W</mi> <mspace width="negativethinmathspace"></mspace> <mi>A</mi> <mi>R</mi> <mi>N</mi> <mi>I</mi> <mi>N</mi> <mi>G</mi> </mtd> </mtr> </mtable> </mrow> </mstyle> </mrow> <annotation encoding="application/x-tex">{\displaystyle {\begin{array}{|}\hline W\!ARNING\\\hline \end{array}}}</annotation> </semantics> </math></span><img src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/1735879add6c04cad562b5f3646d25a4ddf3d8bb" class="mwe-math-fallback-image-inline mw-invert" aria-hidden="true" style="vertical-align: -1.338ex; width:15.29ex; height:3.843ex;" alt="{\displaystyle {\begin{array}{|}\hline W\!ARNING\\\hline \end{array}}}"></span></a>

Close

RudolfoMD (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Figured out the CSS, I think. (Couldn't figure out the image method; wouldn't render right.) Edited Template:Drugboxwarns to use CSS.

Thus: WARNING^[1].

:-)

RudolfoMD (talk) 06:50, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Please tell me if this is in the wrong place. I live with a motor neurone disease but I am not defined by living with a motor neurone disease, I am defined by being a person. I was shocked upon reading the page on Colour blindness that within 5 lines of the start of the article the ableist social convention that defines people as their problem and not as people appears in the form 'the colorblind automatically develop...' These are people first and colour blindness is a secondary attribute, so we should always be aiming at modern best practice which is to use 'people who live with colour blindness...' or 'people who are colourblind...' or 'those who are...'. The section entitled 'Effects' starts 'A colorblind subject...' and in the same sentence has 'the colourblind...'. They are not scientific specimens as 'subject' suggests, nor are they a problem as 'the colourblind' suggests. These are living, breathing people not objects, so I am certain that there must be a place for this discussion but cannot find it and thus put it here. Please forgive me, I am English and have used colour throughout this paragraph, but absolutely accept the the American spelling, color, is acceptable throughout Wikipedia. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 11:59, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

This is a fine place to put this concern. That said, I'm confused: do you object to "The French have developed a long history of bread and cheese" or "Peruvians are proud of their Incan heritage"? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:05, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Justin, I am glad I got the correct location. I am quite certain that if French and Peruvian people object to being referred to thus, they will raise the issue. My concern is with those of us who live with disabilities and are defined by society as being a problem. I do not regard being French or Peruvian as being either a disability or a problem and thus both are perfectly acceptable. Does that distinction make sense? Personally I get called 'the afflicted', 'the disabled, and 'the sick', but I am first and foremost a person. It is difficult enough living with a disability without people treating you as though you have ceased to exist and become a problem. People who live with colour blindness undoubtedly live with a disability, but it does not define who they are, being merely one of a number of attributes that they, as a person, possess. Rick DrRickZTTwo (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but 1.) by definition you won't hear from those who don't object and 2.) which qualities/properties/aspects of a person do you think can be adjectives in front of nouns and which ones not? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:20, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this Justin, I suspect that the resources which you have listed below are going to be part of the answer to that question, but ultimately the answer is whether or not there is any social stigma which can be attached to such a word. I am the scientist, the biologist, the educator, the teacher and the unexpectedly successful artist, I am not the sick, the disabled, the autistic, the afflicted or the dying. It is a line which is drawn by social convention and social convention is decided by consensus through discussion, like this one. I am getting tired, so may have to come back to this later - my apologies. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 12:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

No worries, friend: we all sleep. Happy to have the conversation when/as you can. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you find this language issue to be a widespread problem in Wikipedia? Or is Color blindness the only example you have seen? If it's the latter, then the correct venue for discussion is Talk:Color blindness. But actually the best course of action is to Wikipedia:Be bold and edit Color blindness yourself.

I'm happy to edit it for you, but I do have one question: What about the phrase "colour-blind people" or "colourblind people"? Mgnbar (talk) 12:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I see, from the materials that you've posted below, that "colour-blind people" is not sufficient to fix the issue. Thanks. Mgnbar (talk) 12:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Mgnbar, both for your first question which is a good one and is going to require some research, and for getting to the resources that Justin posted before I did and answering your own question - much appreciated. I have used up what energy I have today, so will need to stop now, but will come back and, if you have not already edited it, edit the colour blindness page, once I have read the resources. I will also, probably fairly slowly, research other areas to see how widespread such language is. Thank you. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 13:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I've made numerous edits to Color blindness, but there's still much to do, both on this issue and other issues in that article. Mgnbar (talk) 13:29, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Mgnbar, I visited the page and you have already vastly improved it. Elsewhere I came across a welcome message (from 2012 - in another lifetime before Nortriptyline damaged my memory - now mostly fixed by many years of hard work, and the rare motor neurone disease with which I live turned my life upside down). It mentioned using four tildes in signing off on discussion pages. On this page it appears to have inserted the information on username and time automatically, perhaps because I initiated the discussion. Although having said that, inserting them here has automatically added them to the preview. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 00:56, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Relevant parts of the Manual of Style:

• MOS:MEDLANG
• Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Psychology#Audience_and_language

Relevant discussions on the topic:

• Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_222#Person-first_language
• More

―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Justin, I shall work my way through these resources, and will also introduce my wife to them, because in life outside Wikipedia, she is a Bishop's advisor on Accessibility in a Diocese of the Church of England and there is no doubt that she can learn from the relevant parts of the Manual of Style and the Person-first_language archived discussion. She may also be able to contribute to the continuing evolution of the Manual of Style, if she chooses to become part of the Wikipedia team. Thank you once again for asking intelligent questions and for being so welcoming and kind. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 01:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@DrRickZTTwo Thank you for bringing this up. After @Mgnbar made the changes this summer, I looked into this fascinating topic and learned a lot. My interpretation is: while motor neuron disease may fall better under the medical model of disability and therefore demand people-first language, colorblindness falls better under the social model of disability. To avoid the medicalization of colorblindness, I feel avoiding people-first language is the best option (for colorblindness specifically). Curran919 (talk) 22:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

I always assumed the Template:Skip to talk was primarily for accessibility allowing screen readers to skip past heading content, however when I read the template page, no mention is made of accessibility, so I may very well be under false impressions. Not urgent, but clarification as to its role in accessibility might help the template page.  // Timothy :: talk  05:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's related to accessibility. I think it's just to skip long talk page preambles... like on this page. I get tired of scrolling down to get to the table of contents.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I noticed that there's a ton of articles tagged with this project's template. Considering this project deals with the accessibility of Wikipedia as a whole rather than improving disability related articles, I was wondering what the best thing to do about it is. KaraLG84 (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

This project was created in October 2007, long before the creation of WikiProject Disability in 2010, so the fact that we have articles under our scope is basically a historical artifact (ditto with the concept of this WikiProject, to be honest). To cut a long story short, the people who created this project were quite ambitious and are no longer here ... and I wasn't and am still not quite so keen but I'm still around. :-) WikiProjects as an institution are generally not doing too well these days; a cleanup could be done but I don't have a strong opinion on it. Graham87 (talk) 04:49, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I can't use Vector Wikipedia due to migraines, and redirect to Mobile Wikipedia.

I also switch fonts and increase font sizes due to eye strain. Now Mobile Wikipedia limits many lines to 24 px to 27 px. Which can be awfully cramped. I think Mobile Wikipedia should either revert the change or use a multiple of the users' specified font size. 173.66.17.86 (talk) 02:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

This is being discussed at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Mobile font line spacing. I'll copy your comment over there and any other comments should be made there. Graham87 (talk) 07:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

There is a proposal at Wikipedia talk:Linter which may be of interest to users here. The idea is track use of images without alt text, and then to surface adding alt text as a suggested "microtask" in the Wikipedia mobile app. the wub "?!" 11:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Looking thru Category:Cleanup templates, I don't see any tags specifically calling out accessibility issues. I'm thinking that we could have a couple to flag issues with articles like "This article may not have sufficient color contrast" or "This article uses tables lacking semantic data (captions and scopes)" or "This article uses tables with column headers". This could be useful for users who don't feel confident directly editing complex tables without messing them up or who may not be able to figure out appropriate color contrast themselves. Do others think that a few tags like this would be handy? If so, which other kinds of tags could/should we have? Thanks. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

We have {{overcoloured}}. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I have a similar question. I've been unable to find any tags regarding animations. I also tried video. Is there a page which lists all the templates relevant to accessibility? Even a general template called "accessibility (see talk page)" would do. I really want something to attract attention, other than a talk page topic.

Humpster (talk) 01:36, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Template:Accessibility dispute Moxy🍁 01:39, 20 June 2024 (UTC)