Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods/Archive 3

Turrid is redirecting to Turridae. But shouldn't it redirect to Conoidea?^[1] If so, could someone add common names to Conoidea, please? --Snek01 (talk) 13:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

A "turrid" is the common name for any member of the family Turridae, so I think the redirect is still good. What happened is that in 2005, a few subfamilies that used to be in the Turridae were taken out, elevated into families and moved into the superfamily Conoidea. I am assuming that those families should no longer strictly be referred to as "turrids", even thought they were called that for a long time.

Those families (Clavatulidae, Drilliidae, Pseudomelatomidae, and Strictispiridae) have not yet been given common names, at least not as far as I know. Of course they could simply be called Clavatulids, Drilliids, Pseudomelatomids and Strictispirids. Assuming this classification stays stable for a while, I am assuming that they will be called that. I don't think they will have what you might call "shell collectors' common names" because in these families the shells are too small and too confusing to be of much interest to the average shell collector. Invertzoo (talk) 14:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

WoRMS has an option to request for the database. The data will be a lot more complete than what is available through web services. We will have access to links, notes, distribution and more. Can someone from the project write the letter to WoRMS and have the CD delivered to them monthly? The file can be copied over to a location where I can dowload it for creating the species stubs. That will save a lot of effort for me. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks. Ganeshk (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Unlike OBIS, WoRMS uses Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License which is compatible with Wikipedia. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 05:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done Ganeshk (talk) 01:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Here is the Turridae stub template. Sample article created, Asperdaphne bitorquata. Can the project please verify and approve it? Thanks. Ganeshk (talk) 04:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I redirected {{turridae-stub}} to the {{gastropod-stub}} and used it in the stub template. It needs to created at some point (after the stub list goes above 65 articles). Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 11:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

There are 800 species under the family, Turridae. There are 415 of them under Conidae. 168 of them under Drilliidae. Like with Conidae bot run, I will skip the Conidae and Drilliidae in this run. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The Turridae are the largest family in the Mollusca with about 4,000 species, many of which are only known from single specimens. This should make us proceed with caution. I propose that we deal essentially with the subfamilies instead of the whole family at once. This splits up the family in sizable and manageable chunks we can check. For this reason I just created the article Cochlespirinae. This way, the taxobox can also include the subfamily. And we must also keep in mind that Turridae in WoRMS includes a number of genera that aren't classified in any subfamily. JoJan (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Let's deal with one subfamily at a time. I will work on Cochlespirinae next. Thanks. Ganeshk (talk) 00:27, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I use the genera list in the family article on Wikipedia (for example, Turridae) to download the species list from WoRMS. How complete are these? Will it be a good idea to automate the genera download as well? Thanks. Ganeshk (talk) 11:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea how complete are genera of Turridae on wikipedia. But when starting articles of species from WoRMS, then it seems logical for me to start all of its species from WoRMS from the certain (sub)family. (If another method will be used, then it will happen, that some informations from WoRMS will stay unused.) If there will be something additional and incorrect on WoRMS, then we will discover it sooner or later. But usually there are additional correct genera on WoRMS, that are missing on wikipedia. --Snek01 (talk) 01:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I think, that automated genera download is not good, because we - humans - are not able to check any list at all. You can apply some semi-automatic process and start some articles for genera that are needed, but as an user. Bot can not decide even if such genus article should be started or not. Copy and paste a list of species is not a problem for me, especially when articles about species are started already. I think, that fully automated process on this would bring more difficulties. --Snek01 (talk) 01:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

We could however discuss the idea of having the bot create a few genus stubs, the genus stubs that are needed for many of the species stubs that it already created. Otherwise I will have to do all that by hand. In fact maybe code can be written to allow the bot to create genus stubs for all gastropod genera that are currently red-linked? Do people think that is a good idea or not?

Actually there are probably many of the smaller tasks that Daniel and I are currently doing by hand that can be automated instead. Invertzoo (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

If creating all genera articles at the same time, then it is rather good. If so, then they should be done for genera containing at least 2 species. / There is also possibility for example to create articles into some certain user namespace, who will alter them and move to wikipedia namespace. Feel free to try it anyhow in any coverage if you like. I will not discourage from it. You/we will see results. Hopefully every results (except of incorrect information) will be fine. (If it will be applied also in land and freshwater species, I will join.) --Snek01 (talk) 23:49, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that OBIS lets you download many databases. I downloaded the "Academy of Natural Sciences OBIS Mollusc Database" and stored it here (Excel file). Can you look at this Excel file and let me know if we can use it for creating species stubs? Thanks. Ganeshk (talk) 03:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Problem. The data is copyrighted and cannot be used here. See http://clade.acnatsci.org/clade_media/terms.html. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 05:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

May be we can convince Gary Rosenberg on the benefits of releasing OBIS content on Creative Commons. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I do know Gary, and he is a very nice person, but I think it is very unlikely that the ANSP would ever agree to releasing all of their data freely. They are pretty strict on that. Invertzoo (talk) 12:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I have checked families and subfamilies of Conoidea on WoRMS (except of Conidae itself) and also Cancellarioidea/Cancellariiidae. These are my results: --Snek01 (talk) 00:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Article "gastropod" gain traffic 5505 in February 2010 http://stats.grok.se/en/201002/gastropod and higher traffic 26757 in March 2010 http://stats.grok.se/en/201003/gastropod. That is 5x higher! This is not caused by an bot creation activity, because Ganeshbot started its make some articles on 20 March. This rapid traffic gain only this article. Hmmm... mystery. --Snek01 (talk) 22:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Curious indeed! To be honest I can't imagine why. Anyway, good for us! --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 23:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Check snails also. In Feb 2 days at 2K or more, then in March 19 days at 2K or more! Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 23:29, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

That is fine. Portal:Gastropods had always had traffic under 500. It have received great traffic 5511 http://stats.grok.se/en/201003/Portal%3AGastropods in March 2010, that is 11x higher. --Snek01 (talk) 11:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

We will have to check to see if these increased numbers continue. If so then it seems we are succeeding in drawing more public interest to the gastropods as a group, and perhaps to nature in general. I do feel that Project Gastropods on Wikipedia is currently poised on the brink of becoming a major presence worldwide, a major resource for English-speaking people who have some interest in gastropods, especially for amateur shell collectors/naturalists, and also professionals, at least in areas that are not their particular speciality.

I think it is just starting to register on the consciousness of interested people that this project exists and is useful. However, with the current enormous increase in new stubs created by Ganeshbot, we do need to start fleshing out stubs with photos and additional information, so that we have more than a huge but bare-bones structure. We also need an increasingly large number of GENUS stubs creating. I will be away for 3 weeks starting next week, so I will not be able to do much, if anything, during that time, but I very much look forward to seeing our progress as the Project develops over the next 6 months! These are exciting times! Invertzoo (talk) 12:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

They truly are, Susan. And this calls for the urgency of attaining our first Featured Article. It is important not only for the credibility of our project, but to draw a massive amount of attention! We should also see to it that more C-class articles become B-class, and more starts become C's (an easier task, I believe). Focusing ourselves on High importance articles may be the key to optimize the process.--Daniel Cavallari (talk) 13:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

All these are excellent suggestions. I personally am very much looking forward to completing the lengthy process of checking and cleaning up all of the old stubs because then I will have more time to devote to other aspects of improvement. Even though Daniel and I are close to meeting up in the alphabet, at which time it will seem as if we are done with this task, I also want to go through the stubs Daniel has already been through, all the way to Z, in order to clean up more things, like expanding many of the first sentences, etc. Invertzoo (talk) 20:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I have formatted the draft page here User:Anna_Frodesiak/Pink sandbox. If you think the colours are too much, please remove them or swap them for other colours. In fact, please feel free to format it any way you see fit. Then perhaps it can become a subpage of the project. Thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! → Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods/Links. --Snek01 (talk) 11:25, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I have also a subpage User:Snek01/Taxonomy for overview, organizing taxonomy and notes about (in)completeness. Feel free to add your notes directly to certain families if you find it useful. --Snek01 (talk) 11:25, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Online resources for information on gastropods is now located at Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods/Links. Anna Frodesiak
(talk) 13:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

A link to this subpage somewhere on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods page is probably in order to assist editors in the creation or expansion of articles. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I've been thinking of a structural overhaul of the project page. Nothing too major. May I propose something in one of my sandboxes? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I would certainly be interested in seeing your suggestions! Invertzoo (talk) 01:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done -- Ganeshk (talk) 02:13, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I was going to go alphabetical on the Suborder, Neogastropoda. Buccinoidea is next. Please complete the intro sentences and verify these families. Thanks.

I notice that Snek01 has recently included a subgeneric classification in the article on the genus Deroceras and in some of the articles on Deroceras species. The most recent and authoritative monograph dealing with this genus is Wiktor (2000). In it Wiktor rejects earlier attempts (including his own) at a subgeneric classification because there appear to be so many convergences and reversals: "the high number of species could not be divided into unambiguous groups". The only exception was that he split off Liolytopelte as a subgenus because of its distinctive hard plate within the penis; all other species were included in the subgenus Deroceras. The species making up Liolytopelte are bureschi, caucasicum, kandaharensis, moldavicum, occidentalis and trabzonensis.

Snek01 has instead also included the subgenera Plathystimulus and Agriolimax. Is there an argument for this, or were you simply following practice prior to Wiktor (2000)? If the former, I would like to see a citation supporting this treatment. If the latter, I would propose changing things either so as not to deal at all with subgenera or including only s.g. Deroceras and Liolytopelte. One advantage is that this taxonomy is likely to be stable. In any case the current treatment is rather inconsistent: for instance D. fatrense and D. praecox are clearly very closely related to D. rodnae, so should also be in Plathystimulus. --Jmchutchinson (talk) 11:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for update. I was following Wiktor (1989). I have updated it. What about the publication year? Should it be rather Wiktor 1999? --Snek01 (talk) 21:02, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this. I have the Wiktor monograph itself in front of me and both the cover and the first page state 2000. Perhaps the online abstract that you have linked to was created the year before, maybe in the expectation that the full work would also appear that year. The formatting of the abstract is similar but not identical to that of the abstract in the monograph, but the wording is, at least at first glance, the same. But I suppose that another possibility is that the issue came out early and the abstract updates the true date of publication. However, Wiktor (2004) cites his monograph as Wiktor (2000), so that seems the best policy to follow. Tricky! (Jmchutchinson (talk) 14:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC))

Chilodontidae (gastropods) vs. Chilodontidae (fishes). Follow: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fishes#Chilodontidae. --Snek01 (talk) 12:23, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I got a response from WoRMS that I would like to share with you:

(transliterated personal communication, that is not allowed on wikipedia without permission from source): Project Manager Data Centre of WoRMS sees nice that wikipedia uses and that wikipedia consider WoRMS as 'trustworthy'. They probably will not improve other data import/export services. He is interested how wikipedia will keep in sync with WoRMS, that is often updated.

They have added "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" to the WoRMS user list. I would like to get your feedback on Ward's question, "...if you have plans to keep the Wikipedia pages in sync with the WoRMS information and how will you do this?". Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 23:55, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not know what will be in a year of in two years or later. My opinion is that, I have no plans to keep Wikipedia pages completely in sync with the WoRMS, because even now we improve/alter taxonomy from WoRMS. WoRMS serves for wikipedia mainly as a source, that the species exist. Wikipedia have a goal to be better than WoRMS. There are few main types of changes:

• I think, that it would be useful in the future to check, if there exist wikipedia articles, that are considered as synonyms on WoRMS.
• Newly discovered and newly added species at WoRMS can be added to wikipedia as usual by the Bot in suitable irregular or regular intervals.
• Updating the whole taxonomy, if needed and how, is a question for the future. --Snek01 (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe this is old news, but the site Zoologische Mededelingen has a CC-BY-3.0 licence for all their articles. See: http://dpc.uba.uva.nl/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=zoomed;cc=zoomed;sid=233cf96e72e622027b93189b0d1d85b3;rgn=main;tpl=home.tpl I found a some articles on Gastropods (click on the 2007 issues for instance, the top one). This one also has a lot of pictures: http://dpc.uba.uva.nl/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=zoomed;sid=233cf96e72e622027b93189b0d1d85b3;rgn=main;idno=m8202a34;view=text. Maybe usefull? Ruigeroeland (talk) 10:40, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons has media related to Images from Zoologische Mededelingen.

Hello, yes, thank you. I have "discovered" that source because I focus on getting such infomations and I am glad that this information have spread into public. ;) I am using this mainly for land (and freshwater in the future) gastropods, but marine became unused yet. Other gastropod related sources can be found at my user page User:Snek01#Journals and I will like to see other recomendations from you. In real the situation is like this: there are so many free new, older and old resources for images and texts, but not enough human power to incorporate it to wikipedia despite the fact, that incorporating these texts into wikipedia is very easy - example: Gulella systemanaturae or not so easy, but very useful and effective: List of non-marine molluscs of Dominica. --Snek01 (talk) 14:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes, we at the Lepidoptera wikiproject have the same problem, not enough people to do the work. Anyway: keep up the good work and I will let you know if I find anything useful in future. Ruigeroeland (talk) 06:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

The bot just crossed the 5000 mark. Reason to celebrate, but a long way to go. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 13:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

We have already celebrated 10000 gastropod articles recently. Another celebration ... ? OK, hurray!, but we have already eaten all carambolas. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Aww! Oh, no carambolas then =(! And I do like them so much! Congratulations to everyone!--Daniel Cavallari (talk) 22:13, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Patron of sciences see this your effort and then you will have an honor to create also genus Ganesa soon. LOL --Snek01 (talk) 14:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Great find. I would be delighted to create that genus. :) --Ganeshk (talk) 22:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Ganesa is done. My thanks to Patron of sciences. :) Ganeshk (talk) 12:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm proud and extremely happy to announce that Eustrombus gigas has been listed as one of the Natural Sciences good articles, under the GA criteria. Our 5th GA so far! Hurray, project gastropods! Thanks to Snek and Invertzoo, whose help was most valuable, and stablished the basis of this article's current success. I hope this will bring even more attention to this very important subject. --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 15:58, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Well done Daniel! That is great for you, and great for the Project! I really hope more of our articles can be upgraded to GA over the next few months. Best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 00:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Muricoidea is next. Please add intro sentences for these. Thanks. Ganeshk (talk) 02:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Question: How does Integrated Taxonomic Information System (ITIS) rate as a datasource? I found that some of their information is public domain. They provide a variety of ways to access their database. — Ganeshk (talk) 00:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I have added ITIS to Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods/Links with comments right now. --Snek01 (talk) 08:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Snek. I will skip it. — Ganeshk (talk) 00:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

In case you are curious. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Olivoidea and Pseudolivoidea are next. Please verify the intro sentences. Thanks. — Ganeshk (talk) 11:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I was at the Doctor's office and found this snail used for decoration. Hope you find it interesting. — Ganeshk (talk) 03:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

My amateur observation, the snail seems to have 4 eyes. :) — Ganeshk (talk) 04:01, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

This must surely be an alien snail. LOL JoJan (talk) 08:17, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Do they really work also? Oh, I see, they manufactured the green vase. I see they are very fast, they moved between every shot. --Snek01 (talk) 21:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I suppose the second set of "eyes" might be supposed to be the lower sensory tentacles in a retracted state, although they are in the wrong position. It's face is altogether a bit too mammalian. It is however very decorative! I like it! People seem to want to make snail eyespots face forward, but really they point straight up. A land snail can't focus or anything, it can only see the difference between dark and light. Anyway, it's a very nice piece of pottery! Very pretty! Invertzoo (talk) 00:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Question: Is this categorization good? — Ganeshk (talk) 22:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

This is useless, because this category is not possible to reasonably reduce under 200 records. Per guideline: "Categories should be useful for readers to find and navigate sets of related articles." I have added a preventive warning and template {{Allincluded}} into the category Category:Turridae. I have also added this preventive warning to some stub categeories, because we do no need too much chaotically desorganized stub types. --Snek01 (talk) 00:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you talk to User:Nono64 about this? He is making hundreds of these changes. — Ganeshk (talk) 00:38, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

A new user needs a welcome and advise on B&R 2005. Thanks. — Ganeshk (talk) 11:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

An taxonomic "mistake" of a newbie corrected. Advice is in edit summary, he/she will see it. --Snek01 (talk) 11:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Free (CC-BY-2.5) data for 4256 marine (mainly Atlantic) species containing minimum recorded depth, maximum recorded depth and maximum recorded shell length (mm) are available at:

• Welch J. J. (2010). "The “Island Rule” and Deep-Sea Gastropods: Re-Examining the Evidence". PLoS ONE 5(1): e8776. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0008776

This should be imported for example like this:

Description

The maximum recorded shell length is xxxx mm.

Habitat

Minimum recorded depth is yyyy m. Maximum recorded depth is zzzz m.

This de facto means that we have available these three types of data from (2009). "Malacolog 4.1.1: A Database of Western Atlantic Marine Mollusca". If there will be released in similar way in an open content journal also other datasets (for example from "A Biotic Database of Indo-Pacific Marine Mollusks" as discussed above #OBIS database), then we will have available also other datasets in the future. --Snek01 (talk) 20:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I copied the design from the Elements project and created User:Ganeshk/Gastropods. Please let me know your feedback. — Ganeshk (talk) 04:22, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Every design is a matter of taste. I prefer style and organizing of the project in the same way as wikipedia articles and also guidelines. Every other non-standard "improvement" is not necessary and may became redundant. Maybe it could be better for reading, but people will have difficulties with editing the project page(s) containing additional template(s) with combination with (sub)pages. Certain design is also similar to other related wikiprojects and provide overview "all in one". --Snek01 (talk) 10:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

But I would welcome help with Portal with "Topics" section. There is minor style problem. --Snek01 (talk) 10:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure how useful this is going to be. I noticed that it takes a lot of human effort to update the synonyms on articles and references to WoRMS. So thought this would help with the effort. I took all Gastropod species (recursive search under Category:Gastropod families) and bumped them against WoRMS database. I then filtered the list to only the ones that had a Aphia ID. And we have this page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods/WoRMS database. When you are updating an existing article, check this master page to see if it has any additonal information that may be useful. You can also use "What links here" menu option on the actual article to check if the master page is linked to it. If it does, then copy and paste the information to the actual article. Please let me know your feedback. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 01:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes I think this will be useful to us, thanks Ganeshk. Invertzoo (talk) 01:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Unaccepted taxa checked from start to Conus leopardus and doing. --Snek01 (talk) 23:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Great. I am glad you found some use for this. --Ganeshk (talk) 01:10, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done I have checked all "Unaccepted" taxa and it is all right now. Some taxa listed as "Unaccepted" on WoRMS exist on wikipedia for various reasons: completelly different taxon, species of "unaccepted" genus still exist on WoRMS and were not moved to another gneus, and so on.

Except of Peringia and Peringia ulvae (different synonymy on WoRMS) and I do not know what to do with Tonna perdix. --Snek01 (talk) 14:17, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Share you opinion at Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Apertural views, please. --Snek01 (talk) 11:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to remind everyone in the Project that these two articles are our two most often consulted (Gastropoda almost 4000 a day, Snail gets 2500 views a day) and both of them need a lot of work, especially Snail. Anything that anyone feels like adding to these two articles would be very valuable! Invertzoo (talk) 21:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

All existing possibly problematic articles on wikipedia have been checked and now there can be all missing records from WoRMS imported into wikipedia if they have corresponding article about its family on wikipedia (taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Bouchet & Rocroi, 2005) and changes in the taxonomy of gastropods since 2005). Intro sentences will be:

• .... is a species of sea snail, a marine gastropod mollusk in the family yyyyyyyyyyy.
• .... is a species of sea slug, a marine gastropod mollusk in the family yyyyyyyyyyy.

(Information if the species is "sea snail" of "sea slug" is in its family article.)

I do not need much more detailed intro, also per Ganeshk's message . If somebody wants detailed intro, inform to Ganeshk for all unimported families prior they will be imported; you can also use User:Snek01/Taxonomy for suggesting better intros for certain families.

Anyway, when all families will be done, then bot will/should automatically add new records that are continuously appearing on WoRMS with universal intro sentence like this:

• .... is a species of a marine gastropod mollusk in the family yyyyyyyyyyy.

--Snek01 (talk) 15:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

New species additions can be monitored if we can get the monthly data downloads from WoRMS. There are 31718 gastropod species on WoRMS (http://www.marinespecies.org/aphia.php?p=taxlist&pid=101&rComp=>=&tRank=220). We still have a lot of work to do. — Ganeshk (talk) 21:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

That 31718 is including synonyms. I think, that number of gastropod SPECIES on WoRMS is about less than 19.000 per http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASnek01&action=historysubmit&diff=359071732&oldid=359045573 --Snek01 (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, get the monthly updates, please. WoRMS is changing quite quickly so we need them. Adapt such method so we can 1) finish importing existing records as soon as possible approximately in a month; 2) import monthly new species (but check if they does not exist as some synonym on wikipedia already); 3) Any other updating activity may be fine. --Snek01 (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

They want senior staff to request it. Quoting from the request letter, "What is your position in your organization? We prefer senior, well-established or permanent staff to make requests, and take responsibility for this agreement, even if on behalf of others." I was hoping either you, Susan or Daniel to request it and send me a copy. I think your malacologist credentials will lend more authority to the request. — Ganeshk (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to Michal's encouragement over e-mail, I have sent out the request for the database download. I will post here once I get a response. — Ganeshk (talk) 03:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I have good news. WoRMS has approved my database download request. I will work on the program to make use of it per Snek01's request above. — Ganeshk (talk) 14:48, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

That is indeed good news! Invertzoo (talk) 20:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Do we have any example "genus" articles? I'm being asked what contains would go into a "genus" article, such that it could make a good article or more, it's not easy to find living animal genus" articles as an example. Perhaps Gastropods have some? Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 00:23, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

WP Gastropods has hit another milestone, it just crossed 20,000 articles. — Ganeshk (talk) 13:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Woo Hoo! Fantastic! Hard to believe. We are getting up there where we need to be. This will make things so much easier for everyone: if we create an image or come across good info about a species (or genus) we can just slot it in where it belongs without having to start an article from scratch. Many thanks Ganesh. Invertzoo (talk) 00:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

This will need discussion, see Talk:Cypraeidae#Intermediary_Taxa. I feel the current implementation of unranked clades is not suitable for reading by software programs. — Ganeshk (talk) 13:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I wrote a reply on that talk page, as you will see. Yes, I am sure that unranked clades are very difficult for a standardized software program. Unranked clades are also a big nuisance in databases, and in physically organizing a large museum collection of fossil gastropods, as we are currently doing at AMNH. However, taxonomy must reflect phylogeny, that is one basic biological rule. The tree of life is a messy structure. It does not have neat ranks like the army. The closer we get to biological truth about organisms, the messier things get; that's biology for you! It's crazy, but I love it. Invertzoo (talk) 01:15, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

As most of you know, we have being doing phenomenally well with acquiring new stub articles in Project Gastropods, thanks to User:Ganeshk and his bot Ganeshbot. We now have well over 19,000 articles! As of a few days ago, one of our members who was working with Ganesh took an unexpected break, and thus we need other people to help out with the process of feeding the "pipeline" so that the generation of new stub articles can continue. If you feel you can help out at all, please contact Ganesh directly or contact me. Many thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 14:20, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

hmmm... It is an Invertzoo's misunderstanding/misinterpretation. All instructions for the Ganeshbot are in the section above: #More effective importing. --Snek01 (talk) 20:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I just wanted to say that there are two gastropod articles that I think could quite easily be brought up to GA status, without very much work:

• One is Kanab Ambersnail, which was GA for a while a few years ago and even has notes on the talk page about what needs fixing to bring it up to GA again (!)
• The other is the genus article Marginella, which is already quite impressive-looking.

If you go take a look at either of them, please go ahead and tweak the article a bit or add to it a bit while you are there. Thanks and good wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 12:59, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah that's true! Kanab Ambersnail is an excellent article indeed. I'll be working on it ASAP. As for Marginella, I still think that more work needs to be done. From a taxonomical point of view, mentioning the type species in a genus article is strictly necessary. If I'm not mistaken, the type species for Marginella is Voluta glabella L. (now known as Marginella glabella according to WoRMS). Also, shouldn't the type species of a given genus be illustrated in the taxobox? --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 18:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Very good points Daniel. Yes you are right: ideally the taxobox for a genus should indeed show an image of the type species. In some cases, at the present time, we will not be able to easily obtain an image of the type species, but where that can be done, that would be excellent. Invertzoo (talk) 13:10, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

BBC News: Snails yield drug addiction clue. — Ganeshk (talk) 17:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, an interesting paper! Invertzoo (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of life#Templates for external links. --Snek01 (talk) 17:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Would be great if someone created bio articles for Philippe Bouchet and Jean-Pierre Rocroi. — Ganeshk (talk) 12:08, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this would be a good idea. I changed the red links in your message to the full names to make it easier for anyone who feels like researching either of them. I had a quick look with Google and there seems to be more online about Bouchet than there is about Rocroi. Invertzoo (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC) Just now I added their names to the List of malacologists as red links. Invertzoo (talk) 00:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I just now did a quick stub for Bouchet. I would be grateful if someone would clean it up and/or add to it, thanks. Invertzoo (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I started an article on Rocroi, but could find almost no information on him online. If anyone can add to the article, please do! Invertzoo (talk) 00:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I will be there. Also anyone else from WikiProject Gastropods? --Edmund Sackbauer (talk) 13:08, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Not me, no such luck, but it sounds great. Invertzoo (talk) 20:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

If you get the chance, maybe you can say a hello for me to Paula Mikkelsen and Rudiger Bieler (I worked for Paula for a number of years)). Tell them Susan Hewitt says hello, and if you like, you can explain that you know me from Wikipedia. Invertzoo (talk) 13:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh well, that's too far away from my homeland... I wish I could go there! --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 21:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious as to the warnings on the Muricidae and Muricidae stubs list. I heavily disagree with the assessment that an 1800-article category is "more conveient" than splitting categories in a logical fashion. Why would these categories not benefit from a split according to subfamilies? (and, if still overlarge, from a split by lower taxon to be decided as needed) Dawynn (talk) 14:02, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

This is similar to my comment at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/2010/April#Category:Conidae_stubs. Every gastropod family has its category and if there are many stubs in certain category, then there is also category for stubs of certain category. There are already many stub types based on family name. And such stub-type names are more or less universally applied for gastropods. We - as wikiproject gastropods members - do not need detailed stub types, because it is difficult to maintain them and we do not need them. - The category Muricidae has many articles, because nobody have found it useful splitting in a different way. There are not enough people interesting in gastropods, so we do not make unnecessary changes of categories, because taxonomy can change (and it will certainly change somehow) faster, than we could react for this. The purpose of this project is not doing neverending categorization and recategozation. My recommendation is: if you are not expert in taxonomy of Muricidae (and this applies also to other families), do not recategorize them without reason. --Snek01 (talk) 15:07, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The subfamilies of Muricidae have been changed numerous times in the last 15 years. Experts just can't seem to agree at all on how this huge and complex family should be subdivided. If we were to go ahead and divide it one way, then in just a couple of years we will have to change the stub types for the whole lot all over again. I do tend to agree it is better to leave it as one category for the foreseeable future. Invertzoo (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

The author Jan Delsing, from www.biolib.cz, has uploaded an extensive gallery of shell pictures under public domain. We should upload all of those and use them in our articles. There are thousands of pictures, so I believe a bot would be useful! I have uploaded some of those already. --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 14:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I've also uploaded more than three hundred of these photos and I'm continuing to do so. As these photos come under public domain, they can only be uploaded to the en.wikipedia and not to the Commons. Mind however, check the species name every time, as synonyms are sometimes being used. Many of the species aren't mentioned in WoRMS and a search in other databases is necessary in many cases. If a bot could do the trick, that would be wonderful. But I doubt if it could do the job we do manually. JoJan (talk) 15:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

JoJan, Can you please clarify this statement, "As these photos come under public domain, they can only be uploaded to the en.wikipedia and not to the Commons"? I am of the understanding that Commons is the right place for these. Public use pictures can be useful not only for en.wikipedia but other language Wikipedias. — Ganeshk (talk) 16:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

You can only upload to the Commons pictures under PD-Art and PD-Old, i.e. the author must be dead for over 70 years. The license "Public Domain" is being interpreted in different ways in different countries. For example, in the Netherlands an author retains his moral rights even under the license "Public Domain". Therefore, a Public Domain is never completely free in such countries. Luckily, the license "Public Domain" is completely free in the United States (cfr. PD-Gov) and therefore these photos can be uploaded to the en.wikipedia. If other wikipedias want to use these photos, they have to check the legislation of their country. If allowed, then they can upload these photos to their own wikipedia. Otherwise, they can't use them. JoJan (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting...did not know that. Thanks. — Ganeshk (talk) 02:33, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

That JoJan's explanation is nonsense. Normally use template http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-author for such images. See Commons:Category:Images by Jan Delsing. And see Commons:Commons:Batch uploading/Mollusca by Jan Delsing. You can also notice, that nobody takes care of Batch uploading of them for more than 6 months. --Snek01 (talk) 00:21, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Late response : my explanation was completely right. The license box in the upload form of the Commons only allows two PD-licenses : PD-Old and PD-Art. However, Snek 01 has pointed out that the box for the OTRS also allows specialized tags, such as PD-author|author name : "{{PD-author|author}} – for works released into the public domain by non-Wikimedia users. Some further explanation should be given such as a link to the author's website where they explicitly state that they release the work into the public domain (e.g. {{PD-author|[http://www.sitename.com author]}})."

However some legal questions remain : {{Template:PD-Netherlands}} (where the author lives) states that the author must be 70 years dead. ::Furthermore the {{Template : PD-Czech Republic}} (where the site is based) is not even allowed.

Anyway, since the Commons allows me the opportunity to upload PD-author photos to the Commons, I'll do so in the future in the interest of everyone. And I have done so already for quite a number of photos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoJan (talk • contribs) 17:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm in the process of uploading photos from the above mentioned website. I've succeeded so far (sometimes after a long search) in finding the accepted names for the synonyms mentioned by the author Jan Delsing. But this time I'm stuck. The images and show Conus fulvobullatus, a synonym of Conus magus. But it doesn't even come close in its resemblance to Conus magus. Another possibility could be Pionoconus magus fulvobullatus . Pioconus seems to be a subgenus of Conus. But even here the resemblance doesn't match. Does anyone have a clue which conus this may be ? JoJan (talk) 15:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Many species of cones are notorious hard to ID. You have to know the species of an area really well to even hazard a guess on some material, particularly when all you have in hand is an image rather than actual shell itself. One thing that is worth saying is that color in cones can be extremely variable and is often of no taxonomic significance. Invertzoo (talk) 00:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

There is an ongoing discussion about automating taxonomy generation. I tried the concept on Xenophora solarioides. Please edit the article and check out the top section, you will notice the taxobox template has been replaced with a smaller {{Automatic Taxobox}} template. There are couple of things that need fixing (hopefully will be resolved soon), kingdom and superfamily are not getting displayed. Overall I think it will make the process much more streamlined and easy to maintain. Please add your thoughts here or share it on the template talk page. — Ganeshk (talk) 04:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Issue with the Kingdom and Superfamily has been fixed. There is still some discussion pending on how unranked clades are displayed. — Ganeshk (talk) 12:11, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I believe I have mentioned this once before, but here goes again. Please everyone, let's try to remember that we are not writing a Gastropod Encyclopedia, or even a Zoology Encyclopedia. It's a general encyclopedia. The prose in our articles is supposed to be accessible and intelligible to a general reader. That means we should try to avoid using the most opaque pieces of jargon, and explain the more difficult terms one by one as you go along. I know this is difficult for many of us who are not native English speakers, but we can try. Thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 00:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I am a non-science person who simply enjoys reading these articles to learn more. One thing that I find is that for terms like "rhinophore sheath"... I am continually having to search for the definition, even if I have seen the phrase a few times, and it occurs frequently in the nudibranchs articles at least. It would be helpful if we can make technical terms like this, hyperlink to their wikipedia page, so that the above becomes "rhinophore sheath" and is quicker to find the meaning. (I fix this when I notice it is missing.) Thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this project! Fallendarling (talk) 02:16, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Fallendarling makes a very good point. Please do try to blue link every piece of terminology that an ordinary person would not understand. And Fallendarling, thanks so much for blue linking terminology when you come across it! best, Invertzoo (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I am thinking of moving Changes in the taxonomy of gastropods since 2005 to A [a typo!] List of changes in the taxonomy of gastropods since 2005, since it is essentially a list article. Please let me know if anyone has objections or other input. Thanks. Invertzoo (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Please skip the A, List of changes in the taxonomy of gastropods since 2005. — Ganeshk (talk) 00:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC) The "A" was a typo, sorry. Invertzoo (talk) 12:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

No objections here!--Daniel Cavallari (talk) 11:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Original name is fine and short and renaming is no needed. By the way, it is not a list, it only looks like a list. Then we could rename article Helix pomatia to List of facts about Helix pomatia. --Snek01 (talk) 11:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's a matter of opinion. Invertzoo (talk) 12:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

And if you want the article title to be as short as possible, then the title "Changes in gastropod taxonomy since 2005" is considerable shorter. Invertzoo (talk) 20:50, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it can be. The name is because of compatibility with other articles (Taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Bouchet & Rocroi, 2005), Taxonomy of the Gastropoda (Ponder & Lindberg, 1997), Taxonomy of the Lepidoptera) containing "taxonomy of". Keep it as descriptive, short as possible, not unreasonably long, but also compatible with other ones is a good strategy. If there is any reason for change, then also "Changes in the taxonomy of the Gastropoda since 2005" is acceptable. --Snek01 (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Hello friends of the gastropod,

I have a video of a sea snail (I'm sure y'all could give it the proper genus/species, it's from the Sea of Cortez) roaming around a mud flat, foot out, presumably feeding. Is that something that would be helpful to this project?

QFL 24-7 ^{bla ¤ cntrb ¤ kids ¤ pics ¤ vids} 01:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

But of course it would be useful! And it would be a pleasure to identify the genus and species, too. Do you intend to upload the video in english wikipedia? If you do so, then please let us know. Thank you! --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 11:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Here it is... from my notes on this field trip, my best guess for the big one is Natica chemnitzii and Cerithium stercusmuscaram for the small ones. Thoughts? Also, which page(s) would this be good for? QFL 24-7 ^{bla ¤ cntrb ¤ kids ¤ pics ¤ vids} 13:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I may be able to identify the species because I collected in the Sea of Cortez years ago, I have the relevant books, and I also have friends who know the fauna there pretty well. But right now I cannot seems to access the video, but perhaps it will be better when I try later? In any case I am sure the video will be useful for several articles. Invertzoo (talk) 21:14, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't seem to view this video or any other of this editor's videos. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why? Can other people view it OK? I am on a Mac, could that be relevant? Invertzoo (talk) 13:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I see I do need to download a plug-in because I am using OS X. I had one go at making it work this evening but without success, I will try again tomorrow. Invertzoo (talk) 23:28, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

If someone knows how to load this file onto Commons, I can view it just fine if it is on Commons, but not on WIkipedia. Invertzoo (talk) 19:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Two DYK hooks: List of non-marine molluscs of Afghanistan and combined hook Indoplanorbis exustus + Schistosoma spindale have received high number of page views Wikipedia:DYKSTATS#August_2010. Both had 6.700 views. People even wanted to know what the fluke (wikilinked to Trematoda) is http://stats.grok.se/en/201008/Trematoda, although it was not DYK hook article. --Snek01 (talk) 00:10, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Very good work Michal! Two very interesting articles. Invertzoo (talk) 21:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Neogastropoda is done. So Littorinimorpha is next. How important are the intro sentence changes? The bot process will be much faster if I create all the articles with the standard sentence, "...is a species of sea snail, marine gastropod mollusk in the family...". Please comment.

I just wanted to say that it is better to say "a marine gastropod mollusk" than just "marine gastropod mollusk" I am not sure when the "a" got dropped out? I do think some of the families already created have this missing. Perhaps that could be fixed? As for keeping the intro sentence simple and the same for all, I do understand it would be very, very much faster, but it would also mean that thousands of articles would have an absolutely identical intro, which makes them seem a little uninformative, and boring for a reader. I think in particular the micromollusk families would benefit from being described as "a species of minute marine gastropod mollusk or micromollusk". It's also nice to be able to saw "small" or large" where applicable I think. Anyway that's my opinion for what it's worth. Thanks and best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 00:23, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I will continue to add the intro changes then. I have fixed about 5700 articles with "a" in the intro sentence. — Ganeshk (talk) 01:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Please verify the super families below. Thanks. — Ganeshk (talk) 03:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Per the discussion here, Ganeshbot was running without a proper approval. The bot will remain suspended until I can get another bot approval request submitted and approved. Sorry. — Ganeshk (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I have submitted a new bot approval request, Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Ganeshbot 5. I request Gastropod project members to participate in the discussion. — Ganeshk (talk) 01:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The following was posted by User:JaRoad on the bot talk page. Can the project members please respond to it? Thanks. — Ganeshk (talk) 22:08, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure about all these Phalium species articles you are creating? Many are tied in WoRMS to a single out-of-print book by amature shell collectors, and the taxonomic "expert" for the clade on WoRMS is also an amature. I think you are making a big mistake creating these articles with a bot, as they should be researched and the taxonomic status of the species should be verified by an expert. This has not happened. (JaRoad (talk) 22:00, 15 August 2010 (UTC))

The same user has asked a question at the bot approval page. — Ganeshk (talk) 22:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

The user has reported the problem on the ANI page. — Ganeshk (talk) 01:53, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Cassis spinosa may be what the user is referring to. It links to a 17th century reference. Please post your thoughts. Thanks. — Ganeshk (talk) 03:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Here is a correction that the user made. — Ganeshk (talk) 03:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

User:JaRoad raises some valid questions. I will try to answer them.

1. The Ganeshbot only performs its function after approval by the community in Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods. This bot is neutral in its tasks and is not to be blamed.
2. As to the validity of names of species, that is another matter. This is best left to the taxonomic experts and researchers in the field. We are not to judge their works, as this would constitute "original research", a breach of one of the basic rules of Wikipedia. This doesn't mean that were not allowed to raise an eyebrow sometimes. I've done so twice in the past and sent an email to WoRMS. Each time I got a friendly reply from an eminent malacologist (one in France, the other in the USA) with a solution to my question. That's to way to proceed.
3. As to the Phalium page in WoRMS (), copied by Ganeshbot, I can't see a problem. That page was formulated and last changed in April 2009 by Dr. Serge Gofås, an eminent malacologist (at the Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle in Paris) with a long list of publications in scientific journals. I would hardly call him an "amateur" (or "amature" as you spell it)
4. The Cassis spinosa page in WoRMS was written by Dr. Edward Vanden Berghe (professional profile : ), again certainly not an amateur. And there is nothing wrong with Gronovius,the original author of the species, living in the 18th century. Gronovius originally named this species Buccinum spinosum, but this name was later rejected (ref.: ), hence the parentheses around his name. I must admit, the last entry was made by Dr. Vanden Berghe in 2002 and since then there may have been changes. JoJan (talk) 08:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

User:JaRoad brings up a good point about Velutina velutina. The bot created the article with the sentence (based on Invertzoo's suggestion), "Because the shell is mostly internal, the snail resembles a sea slug in general appearance". The WoRMS page for the snail has pictures showing an external shell. — Ganeshk (talk) 12:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Might I make a suggestion? Select 20 or so bot-created articles at random, and fact-check the name and taxonomy. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:28, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the situation is pretty much as JoJan and Ganesh report it. When you have a bot generating many stub articles, it is true that some of the stubs are going to need subsequent tweaking (major or minor) at some point, and yes WoRMS is by no means infallible, but overall the general results of this bot work have been beneficial for the Gastropod Project. It is advantageous for us to have stub articles on so many species; it is then very easy to add images, add more info, and if and when necessary to update the nomenclature. About Velutina, almost all the genera in the family do have internal shells and do resemble sea slugs, and even in this genus the shell is mostly enveloped by the mantle, so the animal still does resemble a sea slug. In any case, yes, we do have to use published opinions as the basis for our species lists, we cannot use opinions from specialists unless the info is published and as long as we can get access to it. Most of us do not have regular access to a professional library and so we do the best we can. Invertzoo (talk) 00:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. You already know how I feel about stubs. If I had it my way, I would create the remaining 80,000 bare-bones stubs tomorrow. But, if quality control is being questioned, agree with JoJan and Snek01 et al on what percentage of defective taxoboxes etc. is acceptable. Then do what a factory does: take a random sample here and there and check the product's integrity. Calculate the percentage of defectives and take it from there. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course the above is just a friendly suggestion. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

That was mistake in Velutina articles made by a human. We need to avoid such generalized introductory sentences that would cause similar mistake in the future. Shorter sentences are also fine. --Snek01 (talk) 12:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

No, the thing is, the introductory sentence was not a mistake. The live animal of Velutina still does resemble a sea slug because the mantle covers the shell in life as it does in Trivia . And in all the other genera in the family Velutinidae [(see here), the shell is even more internal than that. The bot permission issue is a real issue and is currently being sorted out. The quality of the stubs however is not really an issue at all. The stubs are fine for the time being. First we need to consider some important questions: Who is this JaRoad? He started on Wikipedia a few days ago on 15th Aug, has made now about 30 edits in total and yet seems to know a lot about the inner workings. What the heck is going on here? Is this person a trouble maker? Is this new account a sockpuppet account? Could it be a sockpuppet account of a banned user? Please people, take a look at the talk page of that account and read the person's postings there which seems to be rather combative and involve misrepresenting facts. Just asking... We need to know a lot more about a user before we start taking advice so seriously. Invertzoo (talk) 13:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh fearsome user raised a concern about some articles and reported a bot operating with out permission. Rather than accept the offer to name family experts the user can communicate concerns directly with, let's accuse the editor of being a bad speller and a sock puppet of a banned user! No wonder you have only 6 editors with that welcome mat. Not only not a banned editor, I've edited with you, Invertzoo, and you, JoJan for a few years. Your behavior in this, both of you, is unpleasant. You used to write articles and work with others. Also, you both know the bot rules. Raise the sock puppet rallying cry, and do your best to attack anyone who tries to make slugs and snail stubs on wikipedia better than they are by raising an issue.

Stay 6, you're welcome to each other, but 2 of your members, I warn you, are discussing the problems with me as if they're about creating an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaRoad (talk • contribs) 02:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I am traveling all day today and will be out of touch both today and most of tomorrow. Sorry. Invertzoo (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Here are the Phalium stubs that the bot created in the last run. — Ganeshk (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Phalium areolum
2. Phalium bisulcatum
3. Phalium faurotis
4. Phalium fimbriata
5. Phalium glaucum
6. Phalium labiatum
7. Phalium saburon
8. Phalium torquata
9. Phalium undulatum -- redirected to Semicassis undulata for which this is a synonym (change at WoRMS on 20 August 2010) JoJan (talk) 05:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
10. Phalium vibex

As for JaRoad's offer to let us communicate directly with experts that he is in contact with, experts on certain gastropod families, that's a very nice offer, and we might be able to take advantage of it, if JaRoad decides he wants to help us with all this. However, any expert opinions we use to change species or genus names, or add any other technical info, these really do have to be published opinions that we can back up with a citation to a reliable published reference, no matter how renown the expert is. One difficulty in malacology is that the class Gastropoda is still not very well understood, and because of this, different experts in different parts of the world frequently disagree about taxonomy, nomenclature and so on. Best to all, Invertzoo (talk) 18:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I think, after reading pages of discussions over a coujple of year about bots creating species articles, that there is a better way to do this. Namely a bot or a number of bots with a central requesting location. Human editors request bare bones species articles from a data base, and the bot or various bots for different data bases respond with fully formatted articles with taxoboxes, intro species-in genus or family opening sentence, categories, stub categories, and authorities, all wiki-linked, references with the database and a talk page with the wikiproject template.

If others think this is a good idea would someone post at the community location and the wiki organism projects and set up a central location for discussion and suggest a central location for posting requests? I think other bots exist that already have access and code to various species databases. I can't post as my computer is in the shop, and current device iis not familiar with me.

JaRoad (talk) 01:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You have described exact way, how it is being done already. --Snek01 (talk) 18:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Really? Then gastropod members wrote these 15000 articles? Why are there so many synonyms? It seems my question about family experts would be answered already, whoever selected the species list is that family expert. It seems, above, that the bot is just pulling all species in a family, thoush, not that editors are telling the bot which to choose. Maybe you can link me to the original conversation where gastropodmembers discussed how to go abour th is, so I can see what you're doing, and, again, see who is responsible for the problematic articles. This information is not clear from above. JaRoad (talk) 18:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Really. If there is something what is not up to date, then the reason is, that the one used the source, that was not up to date. This is universal and valid explanation. It is very probable, that I am the one, who can be found to be "responsible" for such articles. I often update my articles and also other ones, when a new reference became available. This is so and it will so forever, because taxonomy and human knowledge is always changing. --Snek01 (talk) 19:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

By the way, according to policies of wikipedia, it does not matter, that there are synonyms. It is because, the principle of wikipedia is "Verifiability, not truth." Maybe it is will a surprise for you, that articles on wikipedia does not need to be the truth. But in real, we are actively fighting against synonyms. (For example all synonyms to be thought be synonyms on wikipedia in March 2010, were thought to be fixed in May 2010). You can be sure, that all synonyms will be sooner or later identified and fixed. We even have a tool for looking for them (see above section "Unaccepted status"). I will show you an example:

• User1 will start article Helix pomatia with text "Helix pomatia is a snail."
• Another User2 will tart an article Roman snail with text "Roman snail is a snail."

Consider, that both articles are truth. The articles are being improved and some day will somebody add to one of them: "The common name of Helix pomatia is Roman snail." Then will articles be merged easily.

This is the way, how all synonyms will be fixed CERTAINLY. We are trying to use the most recent resources, but CERTAINLY something what will we write this years will not be taxonomically all right next year. Taxonomy is NOT the main thing in biology, but in wikipedia it is quite important, because the name of the article depends on it. If you will write something what is perfect, then the taxonomy can change tomorrow. So do not criticize that taxonomy is not up to date. Feel free to make it up to date by yourself or help us to update it rather (for example you can add the new source into external links section at least. That is an absolute minimum what you can do.) There is no other way. --Snek01 (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about here or what of mine yoiu think you are answering. In addition yor comment that th is is what you are doing is not shown above. The bot operators lists a family, someone writes an introductory sentence, and the bot spits out 111 articles from that family in the database. I suggest a bot be created to answer a request for individual articles. A writer wants to write these articles and the bot creates their stujbs from a database: Bositra buchi, Ophiopinna elegans, Proteroctopus ribeti, Dollocaris ingens. JaRoad (talk) 20:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that could be theoretically possible. Feel free to add your request to Wikipedia:Bot requests. Not here. Maybe somebody will do it or maybe not. --Snek01 (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I ran a comparison of all the bot-created articles with WoRMS to find out if there are more Phalium undulatum cases out there. Please review the Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods/Unaccepted page. It will be good to do this comparison periodically (every six months?). — Ganeshk (talk) 21:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion this is very bad. A google search that I did showed the Wikipedia article as the top return on one of the six species I originally checked. I consider Wikipedia gastropod articles to generally be a reliable source of information for amatures. If a bot has created 15000 articles and 100s of them are bad, this concerns me greatly. I wish it concerned other Wikipedia writers more than it does. JaRoad (talk) 23:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

JaRoad, this does not mean the bot creates bad articles. The species had an accepted status when the bot created the article. WoRMS constantly updates their database with changes. This will be an ongoing process of keeping up with their changes. I hope that clarifies. — Ganeshk (talk) 00:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Please note there are false positives in the list. Species with subgenus names are showing up as unaccepted. Please use the WoRMS link on the actual article to make sure the species has an unaccepted status. For example, Chicoreus nobilis . — Ganeshk (talk)

I updated the list; this time I used the WoRMS ID number from each article to do the compare. This list will be more accurate. Please review the Wikipedia:WikiProject Gastropods/Unaccepted page. — Ganeshk (talk) 12:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Hello, feel free to share your opinion at Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Tarebia_granifera. --Snek01 (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Its not OK: . Taxonomy above superfamily is also important. 20.000 gastropod articles uses it. --Snek01 (talk) 17:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Per the taxobox guidelines though, the box should not include too much above the immediate ranks above that talked about in the article. Thus for Crikey it can include additional levels between family and genus. But the upper clades between Superfamily and order are not immediately relevant to the genus, hence the removal from the taxobox. I do understand that the taxonomy is Important, but the taxobox is just a listing of the taxonomy, and does not effect the placement in categories or actual relationships. --Kevmin § 21:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I thought that you will say that. I respect your opinion, but then share this opinion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods, please. Because it has no meaning if all wikiproject gastropods members will add something and another wikipedian will remove it. Have a nice day. --Snek01 (talk) 21:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

(Note: Move here per Snek01s request.) Im interested in discussion as to the need for the levels between Class and Superfamily on articles about taxa levels below superfamily. The guidelines on Taxoboxes generally advocate including only major levels in the box excepting minor levels in between the article level and the next major rank for example subfamilies between a genus and family for a genus level article. --Kevmin § 05:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The reason why all ranks are applied in all taxoboxes of all gastropods is, that they use taxonomy based on clades. (There is no neverending number of clades; all clades are listed at {{Gastropoda taxonomy}} and their number ranges very irregularly from one to maximally seven.) Clades have no major and minor levels defined. So when minor levels are not defined, we can not identify them to reduce them. We have no mechanism (even theoretical mechanism) how to reduce them. That is why all of them are used. / They are also used in all good articles and in all DYK hook articles and elsewhere. / If you want to know my personal opinion also, then I can not orientate in articles without those clades, because I do not know taxonomy of all ~600 families or superfamilies by heart. --Snek01 (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Kevmin! How nice of you to bring this discussion here into project Gastropods! Thank you for your initiative. I'd like to introduce a few comments in the matter, but first I have some questions. I'm an experienced editor, though not that much. First and foremost, is the omission of higher taxonomic ranks an usual MOS procedure? --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 11:36, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

As I noted with the intial posts the general rule is to only include major ranks order, family etc., sot its not a complete omission but a guideline to prevent taxoboxes from getting unwieldy do to the inclusion of all applied ranks that an article falls under. As shown with my edit to Crikey steveirwini I didnt remove all the upper levels, but restricted the shown 0nes to major ranks. Im not sure that the clades are needed for genus and species level articles to be honest. IF people are interestd in teh higher taxonomy they will click one of the upper rank links and read up on the levels.--Kevmin § 00:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Between class rank and family rank is a rank order. This is major rank. Always some of those clades do represent some taxon at the order level. We have to keep it to provide basal information (the purpose of wikipedia is providing information, not to hiding them). If someone would remove taxon representing major rank, he/she would do it against guideline for taxoboxes. Kevmin is not sure, but I am sure that clades are needed for genus and species level articles. From Crikey steveirwini was surely removed major rank, that is important to understand how the species is classified.

Template:Taxobox#Classification says: "Taxoboxes should include all major ranks above the taxon described in the article, plus minor ranks that are important to understanding the classification of the taxon described in the article, or which are discussed in the article. Other minor ranks should be omitted."

I am a malacologist but I do not understand classification, when clades between class and superfamily are not written. They are important for me. Do you know why all gastropod articles have clades included? Those people who have written them considered them important.

There is always discussed in the article some of those clades. For example in Crikey steveirwini article there is written that is is a pulmonate, so the rank Pulmonata should be also included in the taxobox per the guideline.

There is also another view: articles about gastropods should have some universal and unified style, unified way, etc. We can presume, that there should be unified way how to write taxoboxes for all gastropods. When number of clades ranges from one to seven and when we have no universal way how to reduce them, then the only way is to keep them all. Keeping all clades is completelly within the spirit of the guideline. --Snek01 (talk) 09:04, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I very much agree with Snek on this point. The gastropod class is a truly enormous one which varies tremendously from some very ancient lineages that have not evolved much over time (true limpets), all the way up to ones that have diverged significantly many times in the fairly recent geological past (some land snails). If I am told only the family name and then class Gastropoda, most of the time that means almost nothing to me. Without all the clades I have no idea at all where the family fits into the overall taxonomy of gastropods. And that means that the taxobox is virtually useless without that information. If I don't have the clades to look at, all I know is that its a snail or slug... and I certainly don't need a taxobox if that is all it can tell me. The clade information is absolutely essential when dealing with gastropods. This may not be at all true in other animal groups, but it is true here. Thanks very much for your interest, best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 19:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I second everything Invertzoo said. Unless this is a standard MOS procedure, then there is no reason to ommit such vital piece of information from the gastropod articles. And even if it is standard per MOS, then this subject needs to be further discussed, and that's why I asked you that, Kevmin. From my POV, the gastropod taxoboxes should stay as they are, at least for now. Best, Daniel Cavallari (talk) 20:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Do gastropods have neck? AnimalBase uses this term for gastropods. If so then I will add the word neck between quotation marks. The sentence usually look s like this: « The head and "neck" is black. » Is there any better terminology for this? --Snek01 (talk) 17:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Tricky. This question has been asked about American football players.

Seriously though, if a species has colour/marking differences between head/body and "neck" area, then one needs to refer to the neck. Just my opinion. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:39, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this term is often used for the area behind the head in snails (sort of where the genital pore usually is in pulmonate land snails). Of course slugs and snails do not have a well-defined narrowing like a human neck between the head and the rest of the body, but still it is a way of referring to the part of the body that is behind the head. When some kinds of snail stretch out their head very far and turn it from side to side, sometimes it does look more as if the snail really does have a neck. Best, Invertzoo (talk) 19:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks. --Snek01 (talk) 11:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

About American spelling and British spelling, including the use of the word mollusks/molluscs:

(Copied from User:Snek01's talk page)

I just wanted to say that the USA spelling is "mollusks", therefore articles that are about endemic species of US mollusks, and similar articles (or lists) of the mollusks of territories of the United States (such as Puerto Rico, Guam, United States Virgin Islands etc), should use American English, and thus should have the word mollusk spelled the US way.

Articles about the fauna of Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc (all the countries in the old empire of Britain) should use British English, and thus should use the spelling "mollusc".

I did not yet "move" the titles of List of non-marine molluscs of Puerto Rico and List of non-marine molluscs of the United States. I do understand that if we make that change, these titles will not be standardized with the names of the other lists we have, but nonetheless this is something we probably should discuss. Glad to hear comments on this here. Best wishes to all, Invertzoo (talk) 17:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I prefer unified title names. That is very easy to answer this. Per Wikipedia:Article titles#National varieties of English and per Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English there is really possible to use either molluscs or mollusks. Term Mollusca is not preferred because it is not English. But per Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English "An article title on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the variety of English appropriate for that nation". All molluscs are among the most underestimated themes and so it has no strong ties to any nation (maybe it has weak ties or no ties). I do not care if for example Ganeshbot uses universally the word "mollusk" for every article in in introductory sentence. It does not matter that some other articles uses term molluscs in their introductory sentence. But it really matter in universally applied lists. I can even accept opposite spelling variant, but the only request is to have it unified. This proposal is the most strange proposal against standardization of modern encyclopedia. --Snek01 (talk) 18:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

It is very unfortunate that this word is spelled differently by the two different cultures. It complicates our choices. Of course it is not a bad idea to keep titles of articles standard if possible, but I wanted other users to weigh in on both of these two questions and give their opinions:

1. Do we try to match the spelling within an article to the national spelling of the country in question? Thus an article which is on mollusks of the US, or is on one species which is endemic to the US, would presumably have all American spelling of every word that has a US spelling, including "mollusk". Yes or no?

2. Do we leave all of the titles standardized as they currently are with "mollusc"? If so then this would mean that the title of some articles will have the word "molluscs" whereas the text will have "mollusks" all the way through. Yes or not on this one?

Best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 16:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

1) Personally I don't have preferences for mollusc or mollusk. The MOS prescribes : ""An article title on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the variety of English appropriate for that nation"". This may be true for a land snail endemic to the USA, but what if it is found across Canada (spelling mollusc ?), the USA (spelling mollusk ?) and Mexico (what spelling here ?). What about sea snails without a connection to any English speaking country ? Personally, I would leave the choice to the writer, except for species endemic to the USA or Britain (and no other country).

2) Titles shouldn't contain the word mollusc or mollusk, but should contain only the scientific name. Headings is another matter. And, in my opinion, both word varieties should be avoided in headings. JoJan (talk) 11:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry, I think I did not make clear what I was trying to say: I am talking about all of the spelling issues not just that one word. Yes, JoJan is quite right that this question absolutely does not apply to the great majority of articles that we have now and will have in the future, in which the only related issue is that we should be careful that the use of British or American English spelling of words is kept consistent throughout each article, especially over time, as more edits are made by people with different backgrounds who may not be aware of all the spelling differences involved. So although this is not a major issue for us, I think it is worth working out what our guidelines should be in the not inconsiderable number of cases where these issues do apply.

I am hoping we can set guidelines for the Project that may be able to carry us from now into the future. Here is the situation: we currently have roughly 70 faunal list articles, the number of which is rapidly increasing (these are very valuable and are mostly created by Snek). It is my argument that these do indeed by MoS "have a strong tie" to a country, in that they are lists of the non-marine molluscan fauna of one country, or one island, or one State or Region, or one National Park within one country. All of these lists currently have the word "molluscs" in their title, even for the lists of USA and Puerto Rico, because at some point more or less by default, "mollusc" and "molluscs" became the Project's standardized usage in titles of articles, something that is perfectly OK with me, but something that was never discussed here. In addition, the Project has hundreds of individual species articles about endemic species of land and freshwater snails which have extremely restricted ranges (including large numbers of those species within the USA, including of course the Hawaiian islands). Large numbers of the articles on these snails have titles that are the common names many of which are taken from geographical place names in the USA. The questions are:

1. If we continue to keep the titles of all of the faunal lists standardized by using the British spelling "molluscs", must we also write the text of those lists using British English spelling, even if the article is a list of the fauna of an American territory? Is it OK to have the title say "molluscs" and the text say "mollusk"?

2. If the article is a species article about an American endemic species, should we try to use American spelling, not only of mollusk but of all other words (color/colour and so on) ?

3. The same question in reverse for an endemic land snail species from for example the island of Jamaica, or the list of Jamaican non-marine molluscs. In Jamaica, British English is used, so should we try to use British English in the text of that list and those articles?

I know these are not earth-shattering issues, but it would be nice to have guidelines for them at this point in time, if we can do that. I hope I have made the issues clear here. Let me know if you don't follow what I am saying. Thanks. Invertzoo (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Once we get some guidelines worked out, we can put them on the Project page so anyone can consult them. I say that because a lot of people aren't aware of the two spellings of mollusk/mollusc or don't know their significance, and also aren't really aware of all the many other differences in spelling between British and American English (a MoS issue). Invertzoo (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I go along with the opinion of InvertZoo for snails that are endemic in English speaking countries. But what about other countries such as China, Congo or Cameroon, just to name a few (even if such faunal lists don't exist yet), where there is no link to British or American English ? I think, in such case, the creator of the list should be consistent and use only one language variety (even if this may be difficult for a non-native speaker). JoJan (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree : for all other articles only the consistency of usage is important. Invertzoo (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I am sure, that all English speakers understand both terms (try to ask somebody and you will see). For example Encyclopædia Britannica that claims to use British English, uses term "mollusk"(!). There is not end of scientific debate which one is correct. Even if some part of the World uses one form more often than other one, it does not mean that the other form is incorrect. Unification is necessary (and very practical) in Wikipedia, so if there is used term "molluscs" in article titles, it will stay uniformly as it is. Result:

• 1) keep and use term "mollusc" in all titles of lists
• 2) use term mollusks/molluscs in texts as you wish, but do not change it (both are very easily universally understandable)

I am sure that everybody will agree with these two points, including Invertzoo, that has Editcountitis disorder and should heal herself. Invertzoo, you will not be changing one sign in articles. Correcting/re-correcting one word that is included in all articles within the project is not the purpose of this project. This crazy proposal is nice for theoretical basis, but it is highly anti-efficient and harmful for real function of the PROJECT. Try to lead the project with visionary vision, or at least logically and reasonably. --Snek01 (talk) 00:22, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Ouch. Please assume Good Faith, and practice Civility by avoiding the use of "ad hominem" attacks. I am not suggesting changing the word in every article, I am encouraging the project members to come up with a simple guideline for the issue of US/UK spelling in general. You have given your suggestion, JoJan his. We will see if anyone else comes up with a suggestion. Invertzoo (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Hallo everybody! I've expanded a bit the aforenamed article but found a problem with breathing mechanism. These slugs are known to be upper intertidal. They are also in habit of burrowing in moist gravel and gliding above the substrata. Seems to me that means they do this under the water and hence are able to breathe with dissolved oxygen. Nethertheless air-breathing is mentioned in the stub by Snek01. Looking through availible article by Frank Climo (see the link in the article) I revealed some aspects of lung morphology but couldn't find any direct evidence for any type. The evidence might be in the text but I assume of being inattentive or not educated to recognize it. Could anybody help me in this? Mithril (talk) 23:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm also not sure if I should rename the article into smth like "Smeagol (gastropod)" since the family is monogeneric. We've such rule on this in the Russian Wikipedia. Mithril (talk) 23:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not familiar with this interesting Tasmanian genus. However my guess is that if this genus does indeed belong in the Otinoidea, then probably it does breathe air. Since it inhabits the upper intertidal zone, it probably is active at low tide when that zone is exposed to the air, as is the case in a number of other marine pulmonates. I imagine that it may burrow in gravel to prepare for becoming inactive. I don't know if it can glide around a lot under water or perhaps the description may mean that it glides over the substrate when it is exposed to the air, like the Onchidiidae. Thanks for the newly expanded article! Invertzoo (talk) 01:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes the Climo (1980) paper does not seem to indicate whether the mantle cavity is usually filled with air, or secondarily adapted to absorb oxygen from seawater. In fact the paper does not have much info on the living animal at all. Invertzoo (talk) 01:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for both answers. I began to edit the article after expanding the russian one. However I "hesitate" too much while writing in English so the russian article is four times longer I guess. Can anybody get Haszprunar's & Huber's paper or Tillier's & Ponder's one? My university subsription to old "John Wiley and Sons" and "Oxford Journals" is rather scanty. Mithril (talk) 02:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

• Rename to Smeagol. The fictious being has different spelling.
• I have expanded the article and found reference for "air-breathing": Barker G. M. (2001) page 52.
• I have no sources that you have mentioned. Ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request. --Snek01 (talk) 13:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. This book is appropriate without saying. However I suppose there're only four primary research papers. I'll try to get them via Resource Request. Mithril (talk) 10:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I've found some suspect data in land snails articles (e.g. in Hygromiidae). In these articles haploid choromosomal number range is mentioned with reference to Barker's Gastropods on Land. I've no ability to look through all the book but I found similar ranges in the appendix from the table used for cladistic analysis (page 127). As far as I understood the data in the articles was taken from that table. Using formula "In this family, the number of haploid chromosomes varies from 26 to 30." is a mistake in that case since table was evidently made with generalisation of primary data (accurate within 5 chromosomes). E. g., if members of family A-idae had 26 haploid chromosomes and never 25, 27 or 28 they yet would be placed into category with 26–30 chromosomes. The correct formula should be like "the number of haploid chromosomes lies betweeen 26 and 30". But that sounds a bit mathematically. Mithril (talk) 11:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. It was my mistake. You are better in English than me. Thanks. --Snek01 (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Level of my language doesn't matter. I'm just not sure that chromosomal numbers with such accuracy are important enough to be mentioned in the encyclopedia. Mithril (talk) 14:19, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

If you would ask such question at Wikipedia:WikiProject Genetics, they would think that you were joking. Yes, genetics of gastropods is important. Nice example is Biomphalaria glabrata#Genetics. In the encyclopedia of universal knowledge is genetics of gastropods important in the same way as human genetics or as genetics of any other organism. Unfortunately genetics of majority of gastropods is still unknown. --Snek01 (talk) 22:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I do not mean chromosomal number isn't important at all. I'm in some doubt about importance of the accuracy. I believe you won't argue about the importance of a phrase like "Hygromiidae have chromosomes" or "Hygromiidae have several chromosomes" with ref to that secondary research where chomosomal number range of that certain family are mentioned (accurate within 5 chromosomes) only in the table for cladistic analysis. A person interested in genetics of snails wouldn't be contented with it. Mithril (talk) 07:20, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Corrected. --Snek01 (talk) 22:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)