Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Archive 48

Chunk5Darth (talk · contribs · count) has been repeatedly adding the text " Dextromethamphetamine is the potent form in terms of dopamine-stimulation, although both forms are neurotoxic.^[1]" to the Breaking Bad article. In spite of the controversial medical claim being made, is there anyone here that thinks this statement shouldn't require WP:MEDRS? Also, does anyone think that Livestrong is an even remotely satisfactory medical source? Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 00:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

It is just a tv show page by the looks of it. Not a good source for medical content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:49, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Breaking Bad is a TV show, therefore the article is not a medical article. Moreover, this is not even medical information per se. The Livestrong foundation article cites more than enough notability. Chunk5Darth (talk) 01:15, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

In the first paragraph of MEDRS: "Therefore, it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published secondary sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge." The fact that it's a tv show is irrelevant. The medical claim is the only issue here. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 03:13, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

If it is true one should be able to find a better source. Yes it is medical information. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:42, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Not that it's much, but the writer of the Livestrong article, Melissa Lingohr Smith, seems to be a medical writer who published this book. Chunk5Darth (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I checked PubMed; there are only three articles that mention this substance, and the newest was published in 1996. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

What does that have to do with her credibility as a medical author? Chunk5Darth (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

It has quite a lot to do with the likelihood that you will be able to find a WP:MEDRS-compliant source on the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Chunk, you obviously haven't read WP:MEDRS. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 05:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

An editor has made very bold, large changes to this article, removing reviews, adding primary studies/editorials about rat brains, and removing any material that provides any positive information about the safety or efficacy of ADHD medications. The article was a MEDRS disaster area before, but I'm afraid it is getting worse now. More eyes and comments on the talk page would be welcome. Yobol (talk) 19:22, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The changes to the headings looked good. One does not need ADHD in each heading as that is implied. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:32, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello cool wiki people,

We are medical students at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, and we have just started a club for editing medical related pages on Wikipedia. Most of us are first years, and we are currently suffering through finals... But we still think wikiproject medicine is cool!

We welcome you to come and check out the pages we edit, and give us feedback and encouragements. We would greatly appreciate your support!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Program:Icahn_School_of_Medicine_at_Mount_Sinai/Expanding_Wikiproject_Medicine_(2014_Spring)

Thanks!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruirui511 (talk • contribs) 00:50, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Welcome. Great having you here.

The three most important overview articles are

1. WP:MEDRS about referencing
2. WP:MEDMOS about language usage and ordering of sections
3. WP:MEDHOW about formatting refs

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:13, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello to all at the Medicine Project. I made a copy edit of this page a while ago. More recently a fellow editor made a very thorough expansion of the section scientific debate. (It falls in the realm of psychology and MRI studies). Our joint enquiry to you, now, is whether or not you think the section should be re-written in a more encyclopaedic style. I think it carefully could be to the advantage of the article. I feel that my good wiki-colleague, David A, places importance on presenting the detail of the studies, such as their methodology and I respect his conviction. If you have a spare moment, might you take a look and give us some guidance? Regards, Myrtle G Myrtlegroggins (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I responded at Talk:Video_game_controversies#Video_games_and_health. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:07, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks for your input. Regards, Myrtle Myrtlegroggins (talk) 08:30, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

An edit-a-thon on Neuroscience will take place on Saturday, 7 June 2014 from 10:30 to 13:30, see the event page. The form of the event will different from our previous events aimed at scientists, and those with an interest in science, who wanted to learn about editing Wikipedia. This time there will be smaller groups of scientists and experienced Wikipedians who will work together to improve articles. So there will not be the usual workshop-style training, though the scientists attending will certainly come to understand Wikipedia editing processes. We also welcome online participants, and suggestions of important articles in a poor state. Wiki at Royal Society John (talk) 18:18, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Please see Atherogenic Diabetic Dyslipidemia and NGR-hTNF (antitumor recombinant protein). The first article probably needs additional citations, and latter article appears unduly promotional of the company MolMed (which also needs review), especially with excessive citations of press releases.--Animalparty-- (talk) 21:39, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I put a "citation needed" notice on the Dysbiosis article recently. In truth I do not know whether the statement I marked (the first sentence in the article) is valid information lacking a source OR whether it is "fantasy information" for which no reliable source exists.

It is a specialized subject. I cannot fix this myself as I would not know how to find a reliable source in the field.

I'm raising my concern here as I suspect the article does not get much attention from editors and that the "citation needed" notice could linger for a long time unnoticed and unattended to.

To be specific, I wonder if "dybiosis" is a diagnosible medical condition or just a concept. The first sentence seems to try to define dysbiosis in general terms. After the first sentence, the article is about dysbiosis in specific body areas, not dysbiosis in general. I get the feeling that wool is being pulled over my eyes with this approach.

I would much appreciate your attention to this concern. CBHA (talk) 21:44, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Are there any DOs, DPTs, DCs or physiatrists here willing to comment on manual therapy interventions for MSK conditions? Regards, DVMt (talk) 23:30, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's start with the primary source. You restored a primary source without a valid explanation. There is a discussion on the talk page but you have not specifically commented about the problem. QuackGuru (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

My god, are you seriously stalking me here too? QG, please, I'm asking a question to see if there's any physical medicine specialists out there. Stop following me, stalking me, tagging me and trolling me. I'm looking for experts out there who may be more qualified than others to discuss topics that aren't exclusive to chiropractic, but also involve osteopathic medicine, physical therapy, physiatry and other professions that practice in musculoskeletal medicine. DVMt (talk) 00:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

A good start when dealing with controversial topics is for everyone to use high quality secondary sources per WP:RS and WP:MEDRS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm well aware. Primary sources can be used with respect to non-medical claims, like discussing sociological aspects of a profession. Also, I notice you trimmed this source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922917/) but did not trim the many other primary sources in the article. The claim being made is that 81% of DCs practice in an MSK context (mainstream chiropractic) and 19% practice in an unorthodox or fringe manner. Is BMC not a legit source? Also, I'm asking for editors who specialize in physical medicine. Regards, DVMt (talk) 01:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

So you have taken a Canadian study and used it to support "Chiropractors retaining unorthodox views are in the minority, holding beliefs contrary to modern understanding of biology" We should be using secondary sources generally. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I haven't done anything. This is the most relevant passage: "The data in this investigation suggest that only 18.8% of chiropractors in Canada today define themselves in accordance with Langworthy’s original premise. This figure is consistent with McDonald’s data in the United States from 2003 [22], whereby a survey of 647 chiropractors suggested that 19.3% of practitioners could be identified in this way relative to their scope of practice. McGregor-Triano [3] found 17.2% of 64 chiropractors from around the world, responding to a survey at a chiropractic conference, could be identified as belonging to the subgroup of practitioners for whom subluxation was considered an obstruction to human health.". We're trying to specifically delineate to what extent chiropractors hold anti-scientific viewpoints. This sociological study suggests that not only in Canada, but this trend holds internationally as well. Regardless, this doesn't involve a biomedicine claim. DVMt (talk) 01:53, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

But you did do something. Try to collaborate a little more. QuackGuru (talk) 07:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The details of this study are incredible and the summary provided, doesn’t do it justice imo. It defines “unorthodox beliefs” as the practices of a portion of a professional group that are dissident (from the remainder of the professional strata) and destructive (potentially harmful). In this case, anti-vaccine, use of radiographs that have little or no diagnostic value and “scope of utilization” issues (prescribing treatment for illness or perceived illness where it offers no benefit). 18.8% of all chiropractors (in Canada – but the number is similar in the US and other countries) fall into this category. 1 out of 5! But, that’s only 1 or 6 strata. They don’t share the details in the study, but if a chiropractor prescribed radiographs of no diagnostic value but was otherwise evidence-based, then they would have been categorized as orthodox. Maybe a “minority” (18.8%) have all three harmful beliefs and practices, but based on this study, there’s likely many more who hold fringe views. Ian Furst (talk) 13:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, you're interpretation is quite speculative. The main take away from the paper is regarding what % of chiropractors view dysfunctional spinal articulations as the cause of disease and others which view it under a biomechanical/MSK context. The radiographs section is regarding overuse, or not following EBM guidelines, as published by Descarreaux et al in 2008. We must be careful as to what constitutes 'fringe', otherwise off-label Rx could easily fit into that category as well. Anyways, I'm still searching for physical medicine specialists out there whose practice expertise is MSK medicine. DVMt (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a primary source in a fringe journal, and should not be used per WP:FRIND for anything other than mundane claims. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 14:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

BMC is fringe? Any evidence to support your claim or is this a case of "I don't like it". DVMt (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Altmed is fringe by definition, and chiropractic is largely an altmed/fringe thing. This is an altmed journal, and not independent of its fringe subject area. Fringe people write fringe articles which are peer-reviewed by other fringe people: it's an industry talking to itself. Best to use sources which are independent. In any case, this is a primary source so would be unsuitable in any journal. Seems to me the problem here is the chiropractors working on our Chiropractic article who want to burnish their profession's reputation and downplay its quackishness: one hand on the keyboard, another on their wallets. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 14:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

AltMed is not "fringe by definition". The actual definition refers to "esoteric claims about medicine". Traditional herbal medicine, basic manual therapies like massage, and other common altmed systems are not "esoteric claims about medicine".

Furthermore, even if they were, the fact that the study is published in a peer-reviewed journal whose subject is altmed does not make the source "non-independent". As you and I discussed last week, an altmed journal publishing a study about altmed is no less independent of its subject matter than a surgery journal publishing a study about surgery. "Independent" does not mean "unbiased" or "possessed of a mainstream POV" or "an editorial position that agrees with you". WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:45, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I hear what you say, WAID, since you have said it many times before. But, with respect, I think you are quite wrong and out-of-line with our policies on fringe topics: your equation of altmed practices with a mainstream field like surgery exemplifies this. There is medicine (which, yes, might well include massage) and there are "alternatives" to medicine. Anything falling in that latter category is fringe by definition and Wikipedia should not be promulgating the "quackademia" used to boost it. Your reasoning would have us using the journal Homeopathy, I think. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 14:54, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, WhatamIdoing. Alexbrn feels it's ok to use primary sources (op-ed piece and letter to the editor) to state that osteopathic manipulation is pseudoscience such as this source but he, QG and Doc James feels that the BMC source is a no go to describe the factions within the chiropractic profession and the critical differences between "mainstream/orthodox" chiropractic which is primary spine/MSK based and the unothodox faction who are see spinal manipulation as a panacea. Are using manual and manipulative techniques for MSK disorders really fringe when when, by and large, they show comparable benefit to standard medical care? After all, JAMA seems to acknowledge that chiropractic (and acu) may be useful for LBP . Alexbrn, you keep going down a slippery slope. There is no evidence of effectiveness for homeopathy unlike manipulation and acupuncture. You're also being very dichotomous, there are shades of grey which we must acknowledge. DVMt (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

All we need to do is reflect the information contained in independent, secondary sources of sufficient quality. That way, all difficulty is avoided. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 15:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

All we need to do is not make blanket statements that osteopathic/chiropractic manipulation is pseudoscience and fringe while using an op-ed primary source to support the entirety of the claim. I think you're liberally calling anything not medication or surgery "fringe" by default. This is a hardline stance that misses the middle ground. DVMt (talk) 15:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's see you follow your own rules, then Alex: Where's your independent secondary source saying that manipulative medicine is pseudoscience? An op-ed in a business magazine is not exactly a stellar example of a reliable secondary source. And if you think that "being a chiropractor or DO" means that an author is inherently non-independent, then "being the direct competitor to DCs and DOs" are equally inherently non-independent—especially when, as is the case here, the main purpose of the piece is to encourage customers to use your services instead of theirs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It's stellar enough. I do not agree (as you seem to be saying) that - say - a surgeon has a conflict of interest passing judgement on homeopathy. You seem to be engaging in some kind of relativism. Science is not a point of view. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 15:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

You're using a straw man argument, Alex. We aren't discussing homeopathy, a red herring tactic. Are you comparing the evidence levels of MM and homeopathy? Manipulative medicine for MSK disorders seems to be mainstream whereas non-MSK applications could be considered controversial or fringe. But making a blanket statement that MM is pseudoscientific or fringe proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this needs some serious discussion so we can get a consensus on the matter. DVMt (talk) 15:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

According to the journal Homeopathy there's plenty of encouraging evidence around the medical use of homeopathy (just read it). There are plenty of people who believe this, and who advocate for its inclusion here on Wikipedia. And that's the point. Homeopathy is perhaps the most high-profile example of why we don't use fringe journals for exceptional claims around fringe subjects. I haven't mentioned "manipulative medicine" - that seems like a very broad term which could encompass both useful things (e.g. massage) and outright quackery (e.g. craniosacral therapy). What's your point about it? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 16:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Alex, I don't think that an op-ed in a business magazine, to comment on a treatment modality used by licensed physicians, is what PARITY is talking about when it says " if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by amateurs and self-published texts, verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer reviewed journal". I'm not actually asking you for a peer-reviewed journal article. I'm asking you for an independent secondary source, instead of a primary source written by someone who seems to be bashing what he perceives as the competition. I'm asking you whether you can produce a source that won't require WP:INTEXT attribution to a single individual if we're going to comply with WP:RSOPINION. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:35, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

What text are you referring to? We're reporting opinions, no? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 03:24, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

DVMt, I’ve reread the paper. The main point of the paper was to identify what percentage of chiropractors have “unorthodox” views because it has been shown to hamper interprofessional relations (specifically with orthopaedic surgeons). Unorthodox was defined as a belief that subluxation is “an obstruction to human health”. They also asked about anti-vaccine and excessive radiograph use because those are also major concerns for interprofessional relations (all this is from the paper – not speculation). 18.8% believed in subluxation as “an obstruction to human health” and there was a strong correlation between this belief, the overuse of radiographs and anti-vaccine beliefs (see regression analysis Table 2). It was speculation that the number who believed in 1 of the 3 opinions would be greater than 18.8% but that’s only because the data was not in the paper. We can email the author if the paper is going to be included. However, I am still amazed at the high percentage of chiropractors that hold these beliefs. Ian Furst (talk) 20:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, the ironic thing is that most skeptics and physicians believe that the 18.8% are the majority of DCs. That's that interesting thing about this paper. It identifies the factions, and presents what is mainstream within chiropractic and what is fringe within chiropractic. Mainstream chiropractic=primarily MSK specialists. DVMt (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

At Talk:Low_back_pain#Manual_therapy_and_acupuncture_for_LBP, editor DVMt is suggesting that every article published in a medical organization's journal is endorsed by the medical organization. For example, DVMt is suggesting that a statement in an article published in JAMA carries the full force of recommendation by the AMA. Yobol pointed out, there is this statement, written in every single journal of JAMA, which reads, "All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the policy of the American Medical Association, the Editorial Board, or the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is clearly specified." Input please? Zad68 20:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Misleading. I'm asking a question if a) the article is a RS and b) "JAMA suggests chiropractic therapy may be of benefit for LBP" is an accurate representation of the content. DVMt (talk) 20:34, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Why don't we wait for other editors to read through the discussion and see if they think you're asking what we thought you were asking. In the actual discussion on Talk:LBP you really do seem to indicate that you think a statement in an article in JAMA carries the endorsement of AMA. Are you saying here that you do not think that? Then you agree that the JAMA article is not an official position of the AMA--you cannot use the JAMA article to say that the AMA recommends chiro for LBP, correct? Zad68 20:37, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

How about I state what I am asking rather trying to interpret what I am asking. JAMA suggests chiropractic therapy may be of benefit for LBP. I'm not stating the AMA endorses chiropractic. That would be loco at this point in time. Yobol thought I was trying to use a backdoor, and I wasn't, nor was I trying to circumvent systematic reviews. I don't know why you would assume that, doesn't necessarily suggest good faith. I'm keen on discussing the matters, as you can see from my edit Hx. Regards, DVMt (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

What exactly does "JAMA suggests..." mean? And how does that square with what Yobol pointed out above? Zad68 20:47, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I means exactly as read. I don't think it's up for much interpretation, IMHO. I think that Yobols main concern was that I was trying to infer that the AMA endorsed chiropractic. That was not my intent. Furthermore, I'm asking the question bc I don't want to be part of any edit warring, I truly want to build consensus. Anyways, I agree this is tricky, but let's see where it goes. Cheers. DVMt (talk) 21:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The source reads more like a patient information leaflet than a review article. No in-line citations are provided. I do not consider this to be a suitable reference per WP:MEDRS.

DVMt's claim "JAMA suggests chiropractic therapy may be of benefit for LBP" is misleading. The paper is not a position statement by JAMA. It is an information leaflet written by Goodman et al. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:45, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Axl. This is a patient page and not a suitable source. Not listed as a review by pubmed Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Could somebody take a look at polychlorinated biphenyl (both the lead section, and the "Cancer link" section) and how its possible connection with non-Hodgkin lymphoma is covered?

This is a followup to my recent request; @WhatamIdoing: responded to that, and after doing independent research, rewrote the relevant section on the NHL article: non-Hodgkin lymphoma#Causes. That effort satisfies my concerns about the NHL article, but the PCB article still covers the relevant science in a way that is misleading.

As I mentioned before, I am connected to a lawsuit that involves this issue, and I have been advised to avoid making substantial changes to the articles myself. I hope this is a straightforward enough request, that somebody with relevant expertise can make some much needed changes to the article. Please let me know if you have questions or comments. -Kdelay13 (talk) 05:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Those of you working in medicine may be interested in ORCID. ORCID is an open system of identifiers for people - particularly researchers and the authors of academic papers; but also contributors to other works, not least Wikipedia editors. ORCIDs are a bit like ISBNs for books or DOIs for papers. You can register for one, free, at http://orcid.org As well as including your ORCID in any works to which you contribute, you can include it in your user page using {{Authority control}} thus: {{Authority control|ORCID=0000-0001-5882-6823}} (that template can also include other identifies, such as VIAF and LCCN - there's an example on my user page). ORCID identifiers can also be added to biographical articles, either directly or via Wikidata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:43, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear medical experts: Is this old AfC submission about a notable topic, or should it be deleted as a stale draft? —Anne Delong (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

This article looks fine. The topic is genuine and there are several suitable papers on PubMed that could be used as references. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:19, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Several mentions of this topic in existing articles and several chemicals in this class have articles themselves. However, the lede thumb image is a poor choice...it's 1-deoxy, so it lacks the cyclic-acetal (properly cyclic-aminal for this class) of "sugar" structures. It's a notable chemical, but it's an analog/derivative of the topic of the article itself. DMacks (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Most recent WT:CHEMISTRY comments I can find say this sort of article should be titled as the singular not plural. DMacks (talk) 02:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I have accepted it and it is now at Iminosugar. I have no idea about the categories, though; someone here who has a clue what the article is about will have to take care of that! —Anne Delong (talk) 03:28, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

After hearing about this paper, I looked at the WP articles Inuit diet and Atkins diet and I was struck by the number of health claims made without MEDRS sourcing. Neither is tagged for this project, though Nutrition is. Do we need to do a scan of all the diet articles? LeadSongDog come howl! 17:00, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

These are the wild borderlands of the project, are they not? And try a Wikipedia search on "Health effects of", but have a stiff drink first. Wiki at Royal Society John (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a pre-existing consensus on this question, but my view is that nutrition/diet articles do fall under this project's purview. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear medical experts: Here's one more of those old Afc submissions soon to be deleted as a stale draft. Is this information covered somewhere in another article, and if not, is this a notable topic that should be kept and improved? —Anne Delong (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Needs secondary sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:17, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Doc James. There are a lot of sources there. I presume from your remark that you found them to be mostly primary sources. Or is it that they don't have information about the topic? —Anne Delong (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Out of the first five, only #3 was a secondary source.

Also, "Heli-FX" is supposedly the subject, but it's not mentioned in the article at all. I couldn't even figure out what it is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

All in all, this sounds like a mess. If there's little properly sourced content, and the subject is not clear, should it just be let go? —Anne Delong (talk) 17:54, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:36, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Gone. Thanks for your input. —Anne Delong (talk) 11:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's the rough draft of the video for new editors. Thought I'd share before working on the more technical stuff. Ian Furst (talk) 22:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

A wonderful initiative, and a lot of work! Assuming you put it here wanting criticisms, two points: 1.) For me (and I'm familiar with what Wikipedia pages look like) it went way too fast. Stretch it out to double the length. 2.) The sound isn't good. It sounds mushy, almost like there is an echo. Your voice, enunciation etc. are excellent. Thanks for the chance to report my reactions. --Hordaland (talk) 06:20, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Hordaland Thanks for the feedback Hordaland. I can work on the voice post-production. I've used a high quality mic and removed all the background noise, but made some changes to deepen the pitch and that made it a bit mushy. If we're going to use this alot, it may be worth the $300 or so for a professional voiceover. Re the speed, this is a double-edged sword. My intent was to provide a general overview without a lot of technical details. I've done videos like this before, and we saw huge drop-off past 2 min (e.g. people would back out the further past 2min we went). Also, the longer the video, the less likely peole will be to start. We also tried some (as flash productions) where we'd put an e-Learning question in the middle of the video in an attempt to reengage the viewer and that only made it worse. It may actually be better to remove some content and slow it down rather than lengthening the video. I'm hoping others will offer feedback and that Tryptofish or Anthonyhcole can get some student feedback. I'm also going to see if I can find some stats on video viewership dropoff. To the best of my knowedge, our video viewer doesn't provide any stats. Thanks for watching. Ian Furst (talk) 10:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Ian Furst. And excellent first draft that captures what I want new medical article writers to see. I agree with much of what Hordland said. One suggestion about content to cut the mention of translating articles and number of Wikipedias as that is not essential information and maybe not relevant. We don't want them to think that their content is going to be translated right away into other languages. Also, maybe simplify and abbreviate the section about how to specifically add high quality medical content by sending them to one primary place to see how to add referenced content. From there they can find the other pages. When we get a stable video, I can show it to the folks that I'm working with at Cochrane Collaboration to get their feedback. Overall I think that it is great. :-) Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 15:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Sydney. I've trimmed some out. I like the idea of the different languages, because it gives a greater sense of purpose to the project but you're right, so I removed some copy from it. I'll ping you once the video is stable. I'll be working on this tonight if anyone else has any feedback. Ian Furst (talk) 18:07, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Quiddity and User:The Interior might be interested in this project. Both of them know something about video. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, great work on this, well-scripted, good visuals. A couple technical nit-picks. If you are going to do another run at the audio, I'd do two things. You have some Spanish guitar on one track - you should crossfade this in with the video fade-in (maybe stretch out the fade-in/intro a bit for pacing - let the viewer absorb the image before you make the pitch), then level it down when the narration kicks in, then back up at the end. Currently, I didn't notice it until about halfway through. Second, bump all the audio tracks up a bit, if you can without getting incidental noise/buzz (it sounds pretty clean, so you should be able to). Ideally, it should be at a comfortable listening level on the viewer's computer/device at 30-40% percent volume (currently, I turned it up to 70% in a quiet room). Otherwise, nicely done! The Interior (Talk) 21:53, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, thanks for pinging me, and I want to echo the praise that other editors have given you here. If you add any further content to the video, it would be good to tell them to say on their user page or user talk page, after they register an account, what institution and class they are in, ideally with a link to the class assignment page. Failure to do that tends to be the biggest predictor of class assignments where students get "bit". Perhaps you might also want to show the students how to use Template:Educational assignment on the talk pages of the articles that they edit. Because you asked me specifically about getting student feedback, I don't personally have any student editors working with me whom I could ask. But, when you feel ready, I suggest that you post at WP:Education noticeboard, and ask for that kind of feedback there, and you'll be quite likely to get it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that we should advise new editors to out themselves. Most new editors aren't involved in class projects. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you about those points, but I think we misunderstand each other about this situation. There's nothing in anything I recommended that provides a venue for student editors revealing their identities, outside of the fact that they are editing as part of a particular class assignment. Everything I'm saying conforms in spirit as well as letter with meta:Privacy. And this isn't something that is directed towards new editors, broadly. We are talking here specifically about editors who have come here as students as part of a class assignment. If you look around WP:ENI for a while you will see just how important it is for student editors not to find themselves in the middle of a content dispute that they do not understand, and that they were not prepared for, particularly if the non-student editors they have come across are unaware that the new editors are students, and do not know how to communicate with the course instructor. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

If you posted, "This is a student at ____ school", you would violate WP:OUTING. The bit about "workplace address, job title and work organisation" applies to students: going to school is their work. The fact that a student is a student is protected "personal information". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

In this case, we are talking about editors posting this information about themselves, not having it posted about them without their consent, but we are talking about other editors encouraging them to post it. I think that you have raised a thought-provoking point, however, and I thank you for making me aware of it. I think that further discussion really isn't about WP:MED, so I'm going to start a discussion about it at WP:Education noticeboard#About outing students, to examine it more closely. I'll also leave a note at WT:Harassment. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Love it, great job! Heyinternetman (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think that it is ready for live use exactly how it is without further development. If I had one wish it would be for better voice recording. If I had a second wish it would be to add nothing but to cut even more to make it 2 minutes instead of three. I have watched the video several times and there is no content I would want to cut, so I do not know how it could be shortened. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

A new video is up with some of the suggestions incorporated. If anyone wants to try using this one for new editors please feel free, I'm going to leave it alone for a couple of weeks now (unless anyone finds something majorly wrong in it). Please leave any notes for improvement down the road on my page User:Ian Furst/welcome. Hope you like it. Ian Furst (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC) Update: the videos some times take a while to sync to the servers, not sure how long until the new video makes it to this page Ian Furst (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ian, I think that it is great. :-) And will definitely preview it to the Cochrane folks for their feedback. I'll let you know if they have any suggestions. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 15:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Next week I'm going to try and improve the voice quality and amplitude but I think it's "good enough". Please send any feedback. I'm slowly learning how to do this stuff. Ian Furst (talk) 15:17, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Ian. I've made a link to it at WP:ASSIGN. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Have added it to WP:MEDHOW. A great video. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:08, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Have added content per here []. Further opinions requested. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:34, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't object to such a statement, but I prefer saying "The majority of the currently available evidence does not; however, support a causal role for paracetamol". We could add that the observed associations may be due to various forms of bias, as mentioned by the authors. -A1candidate (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

New article, which appears to be a mash of dubious sources (Max Gerson as a MEDRS?) promoting yet another form of alt med. Might be a neologism. May need to be taken to AFD, is there anything worth salvaging? Yobol (talk) 00:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia for everybody but many, if not most, of the medical entries read like they are journal articles or textbooks. They are way too technical for the vast majority of Wikipedia users.

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not

"Scientific journals and research papers. A Wikipedia article should not be presented on the assumption that the reader is well versed in the topic's field. Introductory language in the lead (and also maybe the initial sections) of the article should be written in plain terms and concepts that can be understood by any literate reader of Wikipedia without any knowledge in the given field before advancing to more detailed explanations of the topic. While wikilinks should be provided for advanced terms and concepts in that field, articles should be written on the assumption that the reader will not or cannot follow these links, instead attempting to infer their meaning from the text.

"Academic language. Texts should be written for everyday readers, not just for academics. Article titles should reflect common usage, not academic terminology, whenever possible."

For example, this is from the entry under Myocardial perfusion imaging

"Interestingly, the concern over radiation hazard has undermined the risk associated with the allergic potential of radiocontrast (dyes) used in CT angiography and coronary angiography. In myocardial perfusion imaging, radioisotopes are used in nanomole quantities, practically devoid of any risk of allergy with normal saline being used as the vehicle and no known adverse reaction to the chemical molecules (sestamibi or tetrofosmine)."

This article wasn't written for the average Wikipedia user, it was written for medical professionals. Plus, it is missing numerous citations and links that might make it easier to understand.

I used to come here whenever I had a medical or health-related question but many times the articles are so full of jargon as to make them incomprehensible to anyone not possessing a degree in medicine or nursing. I often get the feeling that the people who are writing these entries believe their target audience is their peers.

I don't oppose Wikipedia supplying a special place where medical professionals and students can engage in ideas and discussion (a blog?) but where are the articles written for the average user?

I think this issue needs careful examination and discussion, and a wholesale rewriting of the entries that are too complex for most people. Thank you.

Rissa, copy editor 23:03, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Welcome. Yes we are in need of more people willing / able to simplify medical content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Welcome indeed, Rissa. Wikipedia is not only an encyclopedia for everyone to read, but also an encyclopedia for everyone to edit. This means that each of us are equally responsible for the readability of our content. Why not re-write the parts of Myocardial perfusion imaging that you have recognised as difficult for the average reader to understand? Very often editors who are immersed in a subject don't spot when they are using jargon and it's valuable for someone outside that subject to join in and help make articles more understandable. --RexxS (talk) 10:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I can't find them in the archives, but I'm sure we've had a couple of other threads like this just recently. Academic studies of Wikipedia (eg PMID 22166182) also support readability being one of our weaknesses. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 11:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's a request at the Help Desk that relates to a medical article. —Anne Delong (talk) 13:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

The editor who was having trouble seems to be okay now. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:11, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear medical experts: The information in this old draft supposedly was copied from Antigen-presenting cell#APCs and Atherosclerosis and then returned, but I don't see this information in the second article. If it's not there, should the draft be made into an article instead? If not, it will soon be deleted as stale. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello all, if anyone would be interested in reviewing plantar fasciitis for GA, I would be very grateful. Regarding the review, I ask only two things and I think both are reasonable. The first is to offer only constructive advice to help improve the article and the second is that if improvements need to be made to achieve GA status, please put it on hold and I will make those corrections in a timely manner. It saves everyone time instead of having to do it all over again. Thanks :) TylerDurden8823 (talk) 17:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Anyone? Is anyone here today? TylerDurden8823 (talk) 01:33, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Some people gave some comments. I added some information to the article. Other comments from others would be welcome. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:47, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I have opened a thread at WP:ANATOMY regarding whether we should be calling these structures by their eponymous names (Wolffian, Mullerian) or as the mesonephric/paramesonephric ducts. I invite other users to comment, and the discussion is here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anatomy#Mesonephric_duct_.2F_Wolffian_duct. Kindly, --LT910001 (talk) 11:56, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, do consider joining the discussion. LT910001 alerted WP:MED to this discussion at my suggestion. I suggested it because these topics also concern the medical field and therefore Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Article titles, and because WP:MED has a lot more participants than WP:Anatomy and is significantly more active as a WikiProject than WP:Anatomy. Flyer22 (talk) 12:44, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Editors are invited to comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disability#Developing a style guide (version of 14:35, 21 May 2014).
—Wavelength (talk) 14:43, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello! I just made Clinical trials on glucosamine and chondroitin. I created this entirely by cutting and pasting information about clinical trials on osteoarthritis from the articles on glucosamine and chondroitin.

In some fields of medicine Wikipedia tends to collect reports and critiques of medical research. The German acupuncture trials was one instance of this happening, and this is similar.

I posted on the talk page of that article why I did this. I am informing this board of what I have done because a lot of the information which I posted to that article is like a bad literature review by a non-scientist, and yet I thought it would be better to keep the content in its own article than argue for its removal. Now that it is in that space, at least people can develop the content in one place rather than try to integrate it into the Wikipedia articles for glucoasamine, chondroitin, or conditions like osteoarthritis. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:55, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

The commitment to reliable health and medical information on the internet img HON was founded to encourage the dissemination of quality health information for patients and professionals and the general public, and to facilitate access to the latest and most relevant medical data through the use of the internet.

http://www.hon.ch/HONcode/Conduct.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.237.229 (talk) 23:32, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Hum. Not a huge fan of these. Getting a little overly specific IMO. And they sort of support the use of primary sources rather than just summarizing the conclusions of the most recent secondary sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I do not like these articles either only because I have never seen a well-made one and it may not be possible to make them good. Regardless, I hope that everyone agrees that the articles for glucosamine and chondroitin are better now that all of this information is forked from them and placed in this other space. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:22, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello! Wikidata is a Wikimedia project which provides a database back end for other Wikimedia projects. It currently only manages interwiki links between various language versions of Wikipedia, but when it is more developed, it will do all kinds of things.

On the Gender Gap mailing list there is discussion about new Wikidata games which are live now. Players get asked questions which help sort Wikidata entries, and which soon will be integrated into Wikipedia articles.

I encourage anyone here who wants to see a Wikidata application to check this one out, and also to begin thinking about how we can use any similar system to sort our 20,000+ health articles in some way.

• Wikidata Games

Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:11, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

See the archived emedicine discussion. The links to emedicine were removed. The question now is, should we add new links to patient.co.uk? Is anyone already planning or working on doing this? Klortho (talk) 15:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Klortho It should not be done manually. I cannot estimate how much time it would take for someone to automate the process and anyway I am not sure that automating this is a favor I would request of anyone. For the long term, I suppose this function should be taken over by Wikidata, which is neither live nor scheduled to go live with this capability, but which I presume will be introduced within three years. If I had a wish about this it would be for someone to plan to capture the lost information in Wikidata somehow and not plan for this information to be managed in local infoboxes. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes fairly easy to automate. User:Boghog did this for drugs.com Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Super-spreader is a person who spreads a lot of disease. There is controversy at that article which has gotten more than the average amount of attention, but I thought I would share here.

A professor blogged that her student was trying to improve the article but the edits were reverted. The professor makes some serious accusations of hostility against WikiProject Medicine member Malke 2010 who reverted the student Dballouz, including exercising their seniority and personal gender bias. Based on what I see in the article's history for April 2014, it seems that Malke 2010 reviewed the students' edits piecewise and gave what by community standards is the usual sort of criticism of why those pieces were reverted. The student and Malke talked on the article's talk page, but the discussion did not go far.

I am not at this time going to comment on how the Wikipedia platform's inherent gender bias harmed this new user's experience other than to say that the claim should be taken seriously. A problem more concerning to me is that there was some failing which resulted in the student's contribution history showing that this student did not feel comfortable addressing their problems on Wikipedia. I regret that Wikipedia did not seem welcoming enough for this student or the professor to respond on-wiki. It would be my wish that when any user's content is reverted and they are given an explanation why it was reverted then in those circumstances they would realize that they can respond to the criticism on-wiki without escalating the issue to the Wikimedia Foundation's senior staff, and it seems by the posting on the Gender Gap mailing list that this happened. As this case exemplifies a problem affecting the education program and medical content, I am posting on those boards. I thought you all should know.

It would be my wish that everyone involved in this understand that the Wikipedia community supports them and that problems here are the failing of Wikipedia as a communication platform, and not because of failings of individuals who intend to improve Wikipedia and participate in the community. Malke especially is being harshly criticized and I do not want this person to have a bad experience. It is not immediately obvious to me that Malke did anything out of the ordinary or against Wikipedia community standards, and even if something is wrong, I do not like seeing a good contributor treated badly on-wiki and off by people who feel empowered to deliver punishment and shame. Even when something goes wrong Wikipedia is supposed to be a supportive place. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:40, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for their comments and interest in this, especially Blue Rasberry. Bringing the issue here was the best thing to do.

The Wikipedia community needs to be aware that I made several attempts to post on the instructor's blog explaining my rationale about spotting a vandal, the need for communication on the talk page, and that I am a female and had no bias against her student. She refused to allow the post, and did so in an extremely unpleasant manner. She also refused to allow posts from several of my work colleagues vouching for my professional credentials, as well as supporting comments from several Wikipedia editors. She constructed a narrative about females being bullied by males on Wikipedia and apparently no information that contradicted that narrative was welcome. Not to mention, she has failed to show how the user name, Dballouz, suggests a female. So assuming I was one of those 'bullying males' on Wikipedia, how would I know this was a female?

When I saw the student's edit, I checked her contribs. I thought the use of the sandbox was a good sign. But her false claims on the talk page that there is a controversy as to whether asymptomatic carriers are super-spreaders, and her failure to show sources for that claim, as well as her revert before leaving, made her appear to be a vandal. If she had persisted, I would have reported her and she would have likely been blocked because she wasn't demonstrating constructive behavior. Jamie, on the gendergap thread, noted that dropping a 'blob' edit, as she called it, into an article is disruptive. The instructor claimed on her blog that she has a registered account on Wikipedia and has edited here. She stated she was aware of the WikiEd program but decided not to use it. The instructor had all the information and the tools to make this a positive experience for her student, and a constructive edit to a Wikipedia article. She chose not to do that. Neither Wikipedia nor myself are responsible for that. What's that saying, "You can lead a horse to water. . ." Malke 2010 (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Malke 2010, I'm concerned about the "vandal" language here. She added some plausible but unsourced information. Okay, that happens a thousand or more times a day. Why does that make her a "vandal"? Is adding unsourced information automatically proof that the new editor is actively intending to hurt the encyclopedia? Is reverting the removal of material that you believe to be good (by someone you've never seen or heard of before, and who—for all you know—might know nothing at all about the subject) automatically a bad-faith action? Or is this situation perhaps better described in some other way (like WP:Edit warring or failing to meet a WP:CHALLENGE to the material)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Have to agree with WhatamIdoing here. Regardless of anything else, vandal or vandalism seems to be the wrong word and that's from Malke 2010's own description (I haven't looked that well in to the actual case so can't completely rule out the possibility vandalism is a fair call). I hang out occassionally at AN/I and I can say regardless of whether the editor would have been blocked or not, calling them a vandalism based at least on the description Malke 2010 has given would likely have resulted in an admonishment for misuse of the term. It's important people get it right because WP:Vandalism or calling some a vandal is quite a loaded and offensive term and our policies and guidelines clearly establish not all bad edits, let alone all edits someone disagree with, are vandalism.

BTW, I find the gender issue somewhat uninteresting and I'm not even sure this is the best place for a discussion about it anyway. But since you User:Malke 2010 mentioned it, I don't see why you believe you were expected to know the other editor was female as I can't find anything in tbe original blog post suggesting you were expected to know. The main point of the author of the blog post appears to have been that their student who's female, was bullied and otherwise treated poorly and this may partially arise because of the differences in the way male and females communicate but also because of other things like the wikipedia culture they consider unwelcoming to newcomers, protective of established editors and harmful to expanding the encyclopaedia. In other words, while the person who wrote the blog post did raise gender issues, I didn't see any suggestion from them the solution was that editors (male or female) need to treat female editors differently.

Actually, my impression is they are suggesting things need to change at wikipedia to be more welcoming to all editors although particularly female editors who they feel are seriously underrepresented at wikipedia (edit: and as per their followup, more likely to be turned off by aggressive or other behaviour the blog author feel is unwelcoming). In fact, they seem to acknowledge we are only talking about averages which would imply they are aware of the problem of treating female editors differently (since some female editors won't fit in to those averages and some male editors will probably be close to the female average). Instead, I think they are trying to suggest that all editors need to be careful in how they respond, perhaps with particular awareness that different people may respond differently for a large variety of reasons without their meaning, certainty etc being different. (An astute observe may recognise that the blog author probably should take this in to account themselves.)

Really I feel the gender issue is overblown since as I hinted at earlier, it doesn't seem to have been the main point of the blog post. I have no particular comments on the fairness or accuracy of the blog post otherwise, and I understand you feel it unfairly attacks and maligns you. (And I do think it is unfortunate the author didn't phrase the blog more neutrally re your gender since they couldn't be sure, as shown by the fact their suspicion was wrong).

But ultimately in my opinion you are partially misreading what the blog is saying if you believe you were expected to know the editor was female and respond differently because they were. Actually I think it's clear they believe you should have responded differently point blank. (The only real relevance of gender regarding you was that their student was female and they believe commented in a manner more typical of females and you who they believed were male at the time, in their opinion communicated in a manner more typical of males.) Again I'm not commenting on the fairness or accuracy of their characterisations, just what they seemed to be saying.

Note that I didn't look at the follow up (edit: briefly read it after finishing this), the comments and little of the subsequent discussions, perhaps these issues were raised by the author there, if so I apologise. I do understand that this was raised in other places relating to gender issues, but that doesn't make it the fault of the author unless they themselves were the one who did it.

Nil Einne (talk) 18:27, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I read with a lot of interest what the instructor's blog described. In a way, this is a very typical case study of what can go wrong in these situations, and I find it very interesting that the blog update talks about all the helpful feedback about how the instructor should have told the student to make the edits in pieces, instead of dropping the whole page out of a sandbox. True that! And I also wish the student could have been guided better into using the article talk page to understand what was going on. I wish that the instructor had found out about WP:ASSIGN before the assignment was made, because that could have made all the difference in the world. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I read the comments to the blog, and was happy with the good advice, and how it was received. We still have some work to do, as this type of situation is likely to occur again, so my current concern is - while it is easy to identify some things that went wrong, it isn't immediately obvious what to do to prevent a repeat.S Philbrick(Talk) 17:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

You are right about the need to find ways to prevent repeats. In a general sense, it seems to me that the right kinds of advice to instructors exist on-wiki, but it's difficult to ensure that they see the advice before, instead of after, the problem. I think a starting point, but obviously not the last word, is to try to make more editors aware of where to point instructor editors. According to the blog, the instructor tried quite hard to find the right information ahead of time, but no one really pointed her to the right place. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:55, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

People can always ask here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:07, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I think I had quite a few edits under my belt before I even knew there was such a thing as a Wikiproject. I'm sure it was months before I had heard of the student assignment initiatives. My point is, I don't think it is reasonable to expect a new editor to even think about asking the question. Maybe we need to be more forceful about asking new editors to check in at the Teahouse, while making sure the regulars there know how to spot student assignments and get them on the right track.

I'm also intrigued by the notion that smaller initial edits might have led to a different outcome, and I'm musing about whether that can be encouraged in a post at the Village pump idea lab --S Philbrick(Talk) 19:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

"I'm also intrigued by the notion that smaller initial edits might have led to a different outcome." With smaller initial edits, mistakes—such as unencyclopedic or unreferenced content—by a new editor are likely to be spotted more quickly by experienced watchers. This allows the experienced editors to direct the new editor in the right direction, before the new editor has undertaken a lot of work.

Whether it would have changed the outcome in this particular case, I don't know. Axl ¤ [Talk] 19:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Responding to both S Philbrick and Axl, I tend to be a bit of a broken-record in pointing out WP:ASSIGN, and it does include advice about some do's and don't's about moving content into mainspace from a sandbox. I like the idea of reaching out to the Teahouse about recognizing new editors who are students or instructors, and pointing them to the right places to get advice. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I've wondered about whether, instead of directing promising editors of medicine-related content to the Teahouse, if we could direct them here. But I'm not sure that people (the ones here now) would like this, or if we would be as good at supporting new editors as the "specialists" over at the Teahouse. We can be very critical of people who don't already know our standards. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea to send them here. They will likely come into contact with those from this group anyway. If we have a chance to explain our standards there may be less issues. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) After reading the blog and the article's talk page discussion, I think this was a case of rejecting synthesis, failing to mention WP:MEDRS, and doubling-down with WP:OWN. It was an unnecessary conflict. I think the idea of making "small edits" first is understandable but unrealistic. Students build in their sandboxes so they can do it without interference and they dump it all into the article the day it's due for it to be live. I've been asking students to post on the talk pages prior to publication, but I might consider the idea of small edits to start. How amenable is this WikiProject to notifications of WEF courses? Chris Troutman (talk) 23:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

How we respond to that will have an enormous amount to do with how well the people at the education project are doing their job. If teachers and their students are well-prepared by the project with a confirmed thorough understanding of the need to use secondary and tertiary sources, and a couple of other basics, I think most here would welcome the opportunity to at least glance at their work.

Actually, I wish that project would give us the chance to comment on all proposed new medical articles or proposed significant additions to existing articles - before the student starts work. Recognising an actual gap in our encyclopedic coverage of medical content is not always easy, and getting it wrong can cause distress and waste a lot of time and goodwill. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole I could tell you whatever you wanted to know about the functioning of the education program as I follow whatever the program is doing. Everyone in the education program knows that WikiProject Medicine wants to be aware of all medical classes. No other WikiProject gets in their business like WikiProject Medicine. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Blue Rasberry.

1. Do all teachers using Wikipedia as a teaching aid and all students carrying out class assignments on en.Wikipedia medical content get a thorough grounding in WP:MEDRS?
2. Do the students and teachers get supervision and guidance from an expert Wikipedia medical editor in choosing a topic?
3. Can you link me to a page that lists all the current classes affecting medical content and lists the articles each are/will be creating/adding to? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:44, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Anthonyhcole.

1. No. Sending people to WP:MEDRS probably is not a sufficient replacement for some specialized presentation for this population, although at least sending everyone there would be a good start and even that does not happen.
2. No. There are problems on both ends - there is no formal communication channel for notifying this project of classes from the education program and on this end, there is no designation of overseers for classes. I would not favor any obligatory commitment from this project, but for example, it would be nice if for every class at least someone from this project would post a welcome to the class on their course page.
3. No. Perhaps that ought to be here on this talk page, and then archived somewhere else in this WikiProject.

I think you just identified three fundamental problems which ought to be addressed. I suppose this should happen in the reverse order that you asked - first the education program should commit to notifying this project of all health courses, then this project should acknowledge awareness of those classes, and finally the education program should help this project develop a specialized MEDRS training for professors. Does all that seem reasonable? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

By "a thorough grounding in WP:MEDRS", I really mean a ten-minute tutorial from someone - ideally their teacher (who in turn has been thoroughly grounded in WP:MEDRS by a campus/online ambassador). None of them needs to actually even look at the actual policy. Just the basics: explain primary/secondary/tertiary and how we use them; explain WP:NOR/WP:SYN. That's enough for me.

A formal commitment is probably unnecessary. Every couple of days someone from WP:AFC turns up here with a request for eyes. I'm pretty sure those requests are always (almost) addressed. If someone pinged us when a teacher posts a list of proposed medical articles/sections, I'm pretty sure someone from here would be happy to scan it and weed out the clangers.

Others' thoughts on this would be appreciated, though. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole, I watch the education noticeboards pretty closely, and the problem about reaching out to class instructors is that there is no guarantee that they will find, or even bother to think about, any of the training materials Wikipedia makes available to them. Often, someone teaching a course will just set students loose on Wikipedia with no guidance, and may even be dismissive of experienced editors who try to get in touch with them. In the case cited here, the instructor actually tried very conscientiously to learn about Wikipedia before assigning the student, but didn't find the information that would have been helpful, even though the information is already available. At some point, I think we are going to need something that shows up while anyone opens a new editing account, saying something like: "If you are a class instructor, please look 'here', and if you are a student in a class, please look 'here'." But we don't have that yet. For those instructors who make the effort to do things correctly, the education program has some very good training materials. I'm sure that Sage Ross would be very helpful in adding anything (such as the video discussed below) that this Project would like into the training materials. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

it would be pretty simple to make a quick video tutorial for people who are going edit on medicine project articles. make the length 4min or so with the essentials of editing medicine. exclude most of the technical stuff (which can be learned elsewhere) but go over why we do what we do. Ian Furst (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I've put a potential script for an "Intro to Wikiproject Medicine" here. If anyone thinks it would be a good idea, let me know and I'll do it up with animations and stuff. Otherwise, I'll let it die. Feel free to edit. Ian Furst (talk) 21:01, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, that is awesome. I can't fault it (except for one comma). --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I really like this. Maybe we need to have a bot put it on the talk page of all new medical editors :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Just curious - how does this project identify new medical editors? XOttawahitech (talk) 15:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Mostly by accident, when checking RecentChanges or our watchlists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Will create the video and post. give me a couple of days. Ian Furst (talk) 21:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Once the script becomes a video, I'd be happy to put a link to it at WP:ASSIGN. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

We could have it automatically applied to everyone who edits a medical article with a red link for a talk page? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd like that. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:15, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I like the idea of a video that specifically addresses editing medical topics. Different people like different media for learning. And there is definitely a large group of people who do well watching how-to-do-it videos. Right now I'm developing a tool set to be used when I train Cochrane Collaboration folks. If you create this video I would test it with a group to get feedback about how helpful it is. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 22:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

See section below, Sydney. Btw, I'll be playing this on the 3rd as part of a presentation to medical writers, so if there is a later version please let me know. I'll gather some feedback. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 09:33, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Editors are invited to examine "Draft:Potential complications of tooth extraction".
—Wavelength (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Editors are invited to examine "Draft:Tooth staining".
—Wavelength (talk) 21:41, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I've just tagged diabetes and testosterone to be merged into androgen replacement therapy. Both are problematic, apparently with some real-world drama going on around lawyers, Lancet, NEJM, a large study group, and claims that a paper reporting adverse effects was defective. Additional eyes would be helpful, particularly if they grok endocrinology. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:42, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

  Y Merge completed Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 04:50, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place on the title of this article at Talk:Melancholia#Requested_move. All input welcome. Thank you. ^walk victor falk ^talk 11:13, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Could someone with maybe ten or fifteen minutes on hand please go to this section: Polychlorinated biphenyl#Cancer link and strip out anything that seems to be supported (or, ideally, supportable) only by primary sources? I'm not exactly worried about lower-quality sources (like the Mayo Clinic website: technically, that's a secondary source); I'm currently only concerned about the long strings of primary sources.

There are two inexperienced editors watching this section related to a court case about whether PCBs cause cancer, so I'd like to have this done by someone who is not connected to the court case and has not been involved in the discussions so far, but who does know what MEDRS says about secondary sources. I think that doing this would make it easier to figure out what to put in, even if stripping out the bad stuff means that we end up with an entirely blank section for now (although that's not necessarily going to be the result). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

"ten or fifteen minutes"? It took me 1 hour to go through two-thirds of the relevant references. :-) Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:40, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Would members of this taskforce be amenable to adding to neurology task force page:

Scope

This task force covers pages relating to neurological disease and symptoms. It does not cover pages relating to peripheral or central neuroanatomy (WP:ANATOMY, WP:NEUROSCIENCE) or physiology (WP:PHYSIOLOGY, WP:NEUROSCIENCE).

Reasons:

• This is consistent with our scope (WP:MED?), where articles pertaining to disease or injury are kept under WP:MED. ("This project supports articles related to medicine, such as diseases, conditions, and treatments for humans")
• There is an active neuroscience wikiproject (WP:NEUROSCIENCE) which already holds these articles, and WP:ANATOMY and WP:PHYSIOLOGY articles which are already co-tagged. We also have respective categories.
• There is no triage utility if this task force covers every neurology-related article under the sun, as the point of the task force (focus on a few select articles) is negated
• Editors interested in the medical side of neurology (disease/symptoms/tests) can come to the taskforce, and those interested in anatomy or all neuroscience-related articles can go to those respective wikiprojects.
• Without this statement explicitly written, editors may add neuroscience articles to the taskforce and visa versa. This is a waste of time and amending the scope could prevent this. Lastly, as I have already encountered, editors may waste colossal amounts of time tagging or co-tagging articles and this small change may prevent this.

This task force, like WPMED already does, should keep a tight focus, and neuro articles are already well-tended at the active WP:NEUROSCIENCE. I suggest this change to reduce the fruitless workload of well-intentioned future editors. I have posted this on the talk page for the neuro taskforce but closed that thread to centralise discussion. I have also reinstated this thread after it was automatically bot-archived shortly after I posted. Thoughts? --LT910001 (talk) 04:40, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. JFW | T@lk 16:38, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Not sure that explicitly needs to be stated, but I agree. This is what the task force (and project) have always covered, just not explicitly stated on the task force page (but has been on the project page). Also, this doesn't just apply to neurology, but every medical specialty. WPMED tends to cover just the clinical medicine aspects and pathophysiology. It's pretty simple: structures -> WP:ANATOMY, how they work together normally -> WP:PHYSIOLOGY, when they don't work normally -> WP:MED. I know that WikiProjects are groups of people that can create any scope that they want, but these 3 projects tend to be in agreement regarding scope and the delegation of articles to the most appropriate project. These projects have similar memberships, work together closely, and are okay moving articles out of their scope to the more appropriate project. So generally, for any article pertaining to the human body or medicine, there would only be one of {{WikiProject Anatomy}}, {{WikiProject Physiology}}, or {{WikiProject Medicine}} tagged. Specific to neuro stuff, I'm not exactly sure where WP:NEUROSCIENCE fits in. If WP:NEUROSCIENCE wants to double tag along with WP:Anatomy/Physiology/Medicine, so be it. I don't think they have really collaborated with any of these 3 projects specifically regarding scope and potential overlap. --Scott Alter (talk) 05:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed completely. If to add anything I'd mention that WP:Phsyiology hasn't been around for all that long, but it is reasonably active for a new WikiProject. As for WP:Neuroscience I think it fills a role in a niche project that can collaborate with the other projects. There is a more in common with anatomical structures of the brain and their physiology than there are with bones and the liver, and neuroscience would also include quite a significant number of computational neuroscience articles.

I've seen a number of purely physiological neuro-articles tagged with WP:MED, and instead of removing them I've let them be, but I will remove them in the future and tag properly. I don't think overlap is a bad thing as long as we keep each tag within the scope of the projects. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 08:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support ∞ Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 12:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this should be merged with any of the other reflex articles, such as Withdrawal reflex...Draft:Cutaneous reflex in human locomotion. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 16:33, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

There are a number of problems with that article. Some of the statements are very general and sections are lacking sourcing. My own understanding is that these actions are not reflexive in the traditional sense, but are developed by learning, much like micro-slip actions are as a learned automatic behaviorOdd article.

I realise these topics might be overlooked on Wikipedia, and the only source I can find of the top of my head for micro-slips is . I'll have to source a bit before I can say anything else. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 08:20, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, not sure if the section on General Reflex Pathways is considered main-stream. Supraspinal reflexes are somewhat discussed whether they are reflexes at all in the community, especially if they activate cortical regions (not mentioned in the article). CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 08:22, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

P.P.S. This is not only an issue with the article in question, but the entire Reflex article is very poor and in dire need of improvement. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 08:24, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I have opened a conversation on WT:MEDRS about the reliability of journals not indexed in MEDLINE – Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)##MEDLINE versus other databases. If you have a moment, I would certainly welcome your input. Thank you, NW (Talk) 14:54, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

FYI, The usage of Dr. Oz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:Mehmet Oz -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 15:06, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Where does this stuff come from? LeadSongDog come howl! 06:51, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Obviously comes from the two mentioned in the lead. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:50, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I found nothing relevant in PubMed. This looks like a neologism. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:41, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes exactly. Invented by the two listed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:05, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear medical experts: Here's yet another of those old drafts. Is this a notable publication? —Anne Delong (talk) 23:56, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Is under discussion. Others thoughts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:56, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I think the picture falsely suggests that gout may be caused by an insect bite, rather than a pathophysiologic accumulation of purines, so we should look for a more accurate illustration. -A1candidate (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

It is a very famous picture. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Many of the medical articles have lead pictures that take a certain artistic license with the subject. My vote would be to keep it Ian Furst (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Definitely keep it. It's ideal for an encyclopedia article aimed at a general audience. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:49, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Anthonyhcole and User:Ian Furst Might need to comment at the RfC for it to count. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:20, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry James. I'm in a remote location with limited internet access. (We were told internet was reliable but for now it involves climbing a rather high hill in the rain.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:22, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

User appears to be repeatedly added content not supported by the refs they are using. Further opinions needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I gave him a welcome template and included the WP:MED welcome. I always welcome them first. SW3 5DL (talk) 06:51, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:58, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The "cite" button in the editing panel has disappeared. I particularly miss the autofill PMID and DOI functionality. Does anyone know why? JFW | T@lk 10:36, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you referring to the RefToolbar? It still works for me. Check to see if it is still enabled in your preferences panel under Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets (see Editing section). Boghog (talk) 10:54, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

It works off and on. Typically if one tries again in a few moments it will work. I wish the WMF would make it works all the time by adding it as a core part of the underlying software. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Another thought. The RefToolbar is based on JavaScript. If for some reason, JavaScript is not enabled or malfunctioning in your web browser, RefToolbar will not work. Click for example here to test your JavaScript installation. Boghog (talk) 11:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I've done something a little unorthodox on amphetamine#Pharmacodynamics and Adderall#Mechanism of action. I was wondering anyone had objections or feedback related to linking between a technical description and a lay description using different articles on drugs/chemicals with identical MoA/pharmacodynamics. Accessibility is a concern because I'm still trying to get amphetamine to FA status. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 13:14, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Add: If you happen to know of a simpler, more lay-friendly way of stating anything in Adderall#Mechanism of action, please feel free to copyedit it! Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 13:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks ok to me. I'd still like to agree standardized approaches to getting both technical and plain English accounts into articles though, but this is a reasonable approach. There won't always be the 'somewhere else' to send people to, though. Wiki CRUK John (talk)(Johnbod talk) 16:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Two editors are squabbling over these articles. The subject seems to be rather important to me (inclusion of criticisms and ethical considerations) and I think their discussion could benefit from the input of some knowledgeable editors here. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 18:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I thought those working on the E-cigarette article would be interested to know that a new review article out of UCSF on the topic is out. http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/129/19/1972.full TylerDurden8823 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Great find Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a nice review article, but also realize that Stanton Glantz and his group are anti-tobacco activists. While I agree with his agenda, use the conclusions they come to with care. --Mark viking (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

That advice fell on deaf ears, Grana et al(2014) is now the most cited paper in the whole article. --Kim D. Petersen 21:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

There has been some disagreement regarding some edits to the Isotretinoin article, some of which is MEDRS related. I was wondering if we could get some more eyes on this and some input on the article Talk page. The discussion to date on the article talk page begins with the section entitled Edits of "May 10-17 2014" Many thanks Formerly 98 (talk) 12:12, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Sahaja Yoga (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

There is substantial biomedical information in this article that does not meet MEDRS. I made a substantial comment on the talk page listing this info and explaining how MEDRS applies here. Some help clarifying this would be appreciated also if an uninvolved editor thinks this information should be removed that would be helpful. I hesitate to make such cuts as I have been involved in ongoing discussion on talk. I'd like to hear what some Project Med editors think. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes please trim primary sources and replace with secondary sources if available. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:15, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I've started an RFC at Talk:Super-spreader#Outdated_sources about applying WP:MEDDATE to that article. All opinions are wanted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Minutes ago, I saw this edit by FeatherPluma at the Child abuse article with regard to the ACE Study. The text could use the help of WP:MED editors before and after it is transported to WP:Mainspace. I'm also sure that, per WP:TITLE, the title of the article should be Adverse Childhood Experiences Study (or lowercase?), not ACE Study. Flyer22 (talk) 18:08, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the article name will need to be as you mention if the proposed article is advanced to mainspace. Renaming is easily done at the advancement workpage. Yes, the series of edits is substantial enough (more than I realized at first) that I've moved the partially integrated material back to draft temporarily. It was clear that the extant recipient article did not have standard form referencing precisely tethered to relevant text content; the draft text served as a good resource to help reorganize and correct the Child abuse article. Pitch in with edits if you wish. FeatherPluma (talk) 18:35, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

This really needs some attention from specialist editors... Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 19:49, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Bluerasberry, I, and others are intent on creating a newsletter for WPMED in order to engage users, mark our progress, and communicate information about the project. This directly follows on from a newsletter started a year ago at a meta level. The newsletter is currently in a very rough draft form here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Newsletter, and is intended to be released at the end of this month. I invite users to comment on the newsletter's talk page: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Newsletter --LT910001 (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello all, it was recently brought to my attention that under the anatomy section of WP:MEDMOS is a statement that says the following: "A link to the common's image category for images may be provided in the 'see also' section. If article makes use of anatomical terminology, please add

or

as the first link in the 'see also' section." I personally don't think this particular policy or guideline makes all that much sense. This is basically saying that this anatomy terms link should go at the bottom of the page. This makes little sense to me since readers who would have use for such a link would likely have struggled through the article by the time they reach this link and may not even bother going that far. I think it makes a lot more sense to put such a link offering a page detailing anatomical terminology near the top of the page instead.

So, I would like to hear other opinions in the Wikiproject Medicine Community and see what you all think. Please weigh in-do you agree with the policy and think this link should be kept at the bottom of the page or do you think it makes more sense to have it higher up where it's more visible and more likely to be used by readers who would need such a link? Comments will be more helpful if you explain your answers and don't simply just say which one you like better. Citing Wikipedia policy is always helpful, but I think this is an instance in which we might want to consider revising this guideline. Thoughts? TylerDurden8823 (talk) 08:13, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

You should also alert WP:Anatomy to this discussion, and this discussion would perhaps be better had at the WP:MEDMOS talk page for documentation. Flyer22 (talk) 08:20, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, please do consider this next time. We're a active WP and not all users follow both talk pages. --LT910001 (talk) 09:09, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, it didn't occur to me to post on anatomy. Next time I will. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 14:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Anatomical terms should just be linked the first time they occur. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:37, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I discuss this in greater detail below. I feel this is impractical and, if possible, we should find another solution, such as providing links to Anatomical terminology in article infoboxes. --LT910001 (talk) 10:18, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, WP:MEDMOS is not a policy (it's instead a guideline) and, other than WP:Linkfarm, there is no overlinkng policy. There is a WP:Overlinking guideline, however, and I generally follow that. For example, I will link once after the link has first occurred in the lead if I think it is beneficial to readers; this is acceptable, per WP:Overlinking. On a side note, WP:Anatomy has been alerted to this discussion; I think that most of them, like I do, watch both WP:Med and WP:Anatomy, however. Flyer22 (talk) 09:16, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I know it's not a policy and it's a guideline, but my question is if the {{Anatomy Terms}} banner would be more suitable at the top of the article. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 14:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Draft:Pressure ulcer risk and dressing treatment options in adults with spinal cord injury. Looks like OR and how-to, but maybe some of it is worth keeping? FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 02:03, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

There is a disagreement over the phrasing. Please comment here. Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:51, 28 May 2014 (UTC)