Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 140

Just came across this category tree Category:List of conflicts and wars fought with firearms which has a list of conflicts that each firearm has been used including List of conflicts and wars fought with Kalashnikov rifles and others. Not my area but I cant see any encyclopedic value in these lists. MilborneOne (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• Perhaps you should include the original creators of said articles. Tagging @Rizuan: and @RAF910: ...GELongstreet (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
• First, Wiki has countless similar list type article pages. Second, these articles were created as companion pages to their main articles. As the list on said pages was getting out of hand. Third, these articles also act as a central repository of information for that type of firearm.--RAF910 (talk) 14:27, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I generally agree with MilbourneOne, in that the lists don't hold much value as they stand. When it comes to having a "central repository" we tend to use categories, which are not referenced but lead to articles that are usually cited (if not we have the Template:Category unsourced tag) – which is why plain lists with no added information don't always work. Wiki may have silimar lists but we review concerns case-by-case, so WP:Others isn't always a valid argument. The problem with this list is that is claims a specific weapon was used in X, Y and Z conflicts but largely goes uncited. We have to take each claim at face value which is not encyclopedic. Question is, with each list being so extensive, who is willing to reference each conflict? — Marcus^(talk) 14:44, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• No, the Question is, if these "extensive" lists that were overwhelming the main articles are restored to those articles, who is going to police the main articles to ensure that only properly referenced notable conflicts are included? These pages were created to solve the same (too much information) problem that every experience editor has been forced to deal with. It's better that this information remain isolated on their own pages--RAF910 (talk) 16:20, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't get "policed", that would be paramount to WP:OWNing them. It would be the responsiblilty of anyone creating and populating categories to only include those which are properly referenced and not rely on others to "police" them. When you commit yourself to a task like that it should either be done right or not at all. No one said the lists had to be restored to articles either, but I did suggest that the various types of guns might be listed in categories, instead. I'm not a deletionist, generally, but if another editor put these as AfD I'd probably support it, mostly because a list as extensive as these without references is unreliable. Anyone could add or remove conflicts to guns unchallenged, and that makes the lists unstable. Who "polices" the lists after each edit to verify changes? Your reasoning, though understandable considering the length of the lists, is disingenous with regards to how they are managed. Categories are more functional, link to referenced articles, and it's less likely that Anon IPs (in good faith or vandals) will change them, since lists are more tempting. Also, categories are self-sorting, they need little administration, whereas List of conflicts and wars fought with Kalashnikov rifles is a mess: the guns are not properly listed alphabetically, and the conflicts are not in any apparent logical order at all because the conflicts don't include year start–end dates. They are next to useless, unless someone uses their browser text search function. Sorry, but these lists are just lazily done, article titles copy/pasted into sloppy lists without extensive research, and they don't convey the content in a clear fashion. There's more to criticise than praise, I'm afraid. If this was a page in a military book I'd send it back to the publisher for a refund. Here is an example of a list article which, though not perfect, has been created so that the entries are clearly in order: List of conflicts in Europe. — Marcus^(talk) 16:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• OK...lets be blunt. These list pages were created as TROLL BAIT to protect the main pages, from exactly what your complaining about here. --RAF910 (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Trolls aren't going to go round hundreds of conflict articles adding/removing the types of guns used. Wikipedia doesn't need "troll bait" articles, it's an encyclopedia, not a honey pot. We have admins, page protection and blocks for handling trolls, not decoy articles that don't meet standards. But MilborneOne has a good reason to consider AfD now, you just handed it to him. — Marcus^(talk) 17:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• As I see this, you can fix the page (reformat, add references, etc.) or you can delete it. I'm sure your fellow editors will appreciate the added workload. Thank you very much.--RAF910 (talk) 17:57, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

There's WP:NORUSH and WP:NOTIMELIMIT. — Marcus^(talk) 18:22, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

These articles should be deleted: the use of various kinds of guns in wars is not a notable way of classifying these conflicts. Nick-D (talk) 23:20, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

From my experience, vandals know how to locate the specific weapon and conflict articles anyway. Loads of weapons and conflict articles are targetted on a daily basis. These lists do not seemed to have done their job as a decoy. As a group of pages they are not adding to the encylopedia. Delete. An interesting idea, but it hasn't worked. Irondome (talk) 23:45, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi everyone, thanks for contributing! I could use some clarification.

• @MilborneOne:: When you say you can't see any "encyclopedic value" are you proposing the deletion of all the list pages or just the category? Can you be more specific, also about why you see these as lacking in comparison with other list pages or categories?
• @RAF910: & @Irondome:: Can you tell me what you mean by "Troll bait" or "decoy"? And why do you think these articles are "overwhelming the main articles"?
• @Nick-D:: I don't think I agree. I think that wars and the small arms that were used by the combatants are closely associated with one another.

Thanks again :-) Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 00:35, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I cannot speak for RAF910 but the colleagues idea appears to have been to use these lists to protect articles by attracting vandal attention to them instead of the core articles. So they appear to have been envisaged as decoys. This is my understanding of the situation. I did not say anything about the lists 'overwhelming the main articles' as I was not even aware of them until the subject was brought up here, so I am unsure what you mean by that. Irondome (talk) 00:50, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

@Irondome:: Thanks for your response! I guess I will await further clarification from the others. :-) Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 01:44, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Given that even small wars typically involve large numbers of different firearms, and the main models of firearms end up being used in large numbers of wars, the two concepts can't be meaningfully grouped as is being attempted here. Nick-D (talk) 08:35, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with this sentiment. A conflict can be notable. A gun can be notable. But when is a gun notable to a specific conflict? There are very few exceptions; something like the Baker Rifle might pass the test, but many, like the AK-47 or Winchester Rifle, have been used in everything from wars, to terrorism to bank robberies worldwide – the gun itself is notable, a list of its uses in history, less so. For readers to have to cross-reference from an article about a weapon, to a poorly-presented list, to a conflict, is somewhat cumbersome. That method tends to only work with TV series' that go from the main article to an episode list to articles on notable episodes, because episode lists are built around a template and generally provide a lot of details, not to mention being easily verified via IMDB alone. These weapon lists are just plain lists, without order and substance, they lack detailed referencing or a way of quickly verifying if each conflict attributed to each weapon is correct. Impossible to maintain. — Marcus^(talk) 09:26, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Frankly, this type of list is unencyclopaedic, and they should be deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:13, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Just to note my original intention was to send each of these lists to AfD but I was looking for the opinion of others before doing so. Weapons are designed to be used in war and conflict so to list them in this manner is a bit pointless and has no encylopedic value. Marcus makes some good points in his last post about the limited occasions when weapons used could be notable enough to mention in the related article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:14, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

If the lists are deleted following an AfD I think we should look to a new discussion about the Template:infobox weapon with regards to the "wars" parameter. It is optional, but that doesn't mean each and every conflict a specific gun is used in needs to be listed, and as I said earlier, few have notable uses so the "wars" field doesn't represent a NPOV if only a few examples are listed. I'm of mind that we should deprecate "wars" and advise that individual gun usage be summarised within the main body of the article instead especially those with wide usage like the AK-47, etc, because that encourages referencing, whereas many people turn a blind eye to uncited infobox entries. But that's a conversation probably best saved for later, depending how other members feels about the infobox and wheter it is suited to conveying a list of wars. Looking at Brown Bess you can see it easily gets crowded, or M1 Garand which ends with "Numerous other conflicts" which is totally unhelpful. — Marcus^(talk) 14:08, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

OK...Let me explain. When these lists were on the high traffic M16 and AK-47 page they were the subject of almost continuous edit warring, as some users insisted on adding every incident where these rifles were fired in anger (including criminal use). When the lists were removed from those pages and the new list pages were created, the edit warring on the M16 and AK-47 pages came to an end. And, since nobody really cared what happens on these low traffic list pages. The problem was solved. By removing the list pages you will only recreate the problems. If you guys want to delete the list pages, go ahead, you clearly have enough votes to do so. However, while you all shaking hands and patting each other on the back, those of us who watch these pages will have to live with the consequences of your actions. And, please spare me the high moral ground nonsense, we are all experienced editors here. We all know the damage that one highly aggressive editor who refuses to take no for an answer can do, before they get voted off the island. I've said my piece the ball is now in your court. --RAF910 (talk) 15:08, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

If the lists get deleted and trouble starts again on specific pages you can always ask here for a MILHIST admin to review the situation and consider applying WP:pending changes protection for an indefinite period of time. That way, all edits can be monitored and rejected if necessary until enough time passes for the dispute to cool off. All potential bad consequences have solutions. — Marcus^(talk) 17:08, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and that exactly what was happening until the list pages were created. Again, standing on the high moral ground doesn't solve the problem. My question is, will you personally put your money where your mouth is, and watch the main pages, and guarantee to protect them every time the problem arises?--RAF910 (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Wow, cannot wait for the List of AK-47s currently in use article.--Catlemur (talk) 17:47, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Nope, I won't guarantee anything because I'm not an admin, I can't protect them. I don't mind tagging, reverting or questioning bad edits, vandalism or uncited claims, but that's it. But it hardly seems necessary. AK-47 already has 576 watchers. — Marcus^(talk) 18:06, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Delete 'em. These are preposterous. What's next, List of wars using Bedford vehicles? List of wars using Remington ammunition? List of wars using broadhead arrows? And you thought Pokemon pages were crufty.... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 00:22, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I think it's time to move to the AfD stage of getting rid of these useless lists. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:19, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Plenty of opinions to go on here, might as well put them to AfD and see what goes. — Marcus^(talk) 23:59, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of conflicts and wars fought with M16 type rifles has been raised MilborneOne (talk) 14:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Security contractor. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Prisencolin (talk) 19:15, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Kokoda Track campaign/Archive 1#Where to from now?. This is an important article with respect to Australian military history and the 75th anniversary of same. Your input would be gratefully appreciated. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:26, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello,
The article Al Hathla raid was created by a now blocked sock-puppet. The article needs to be looked at by an editor who is familiar with the topic for possible false information and/or hoaxes. Thanks. —usernamekiran(talk) 18:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

The Terrorists of Iraq about the Iraqi insurgency.

New article I wrote and created on the book The Terrorists of Iraq.

Could be useful reference work for other articles on the topic. Sagecandor (talk) 16:57, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

The "insurgents" aren't the terrorists.Keith-264 (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Opinions requested on proposed renaming of Danish Frogmen Corps at Talk:Danish Frogmen Corps#Requested move 17 June 2017 • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 09:57, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Would someone point me to a WP that describes the layout for references being single column pls? I can't find it. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Not seen myself and I have thought about the alternative as being more user friendly. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

G'day, Keith, H:REFCOLS provides guidance about columns and implies that there isn't a requirement for a single column. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:10, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, it isn't the page I remember but it's a start. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 12:55, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

: Where there are many footnotes plus a page-width Bibliography subsection, this is something more like it.Keith-264 (talk) 12:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Found it: it's with sfns, "The reference list is formatted by placing the citations in an unordered list using the * markup. Entries may be sorted by the author's last name. The text size may be formatted with {{refbegin}} and {{refend}}. The references list is normally displayed in one column with no indenting."Keith-264 (talk) 13:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

"Normally" - fwisw Cinderella157 (talk) 13:32, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

It is often set to a width like 35em. The existence of a template like {{reflist}} with parameters for column width implies that it is an acceptable option. I think that it is not always rendered in columns - depends on the browser. Fixed width columns uses the column width parameter as a minimum, and will not force a fixed number of columns on a display which is too narrow. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 10:06, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Once footnotes get to a reasonable number, 30em or even 20em are often used, but as far as full references are concerned, columns are ok, I've used them in FAs. {{refbegin|2}} is the way to do it at the top, with {{refend}} at the bottom. You can also use something like {{refbegin|40em}} instead of forcing the number of columns. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I asked because I wanted to see what support in the WP there was for keeping the Bibliography/References in a single column so that each line stars with the author surname. (I think there might be a bit of terminological exactitude here with the word references; I use it as a synonym for bibliography [because I copied the term when I started writing articles] and use footnotes to refer to the list of citations above.) Following the links that people kindly offered, I've found the bit I was looking for but it seems limited to articles using the sfn format. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:53, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

This article seems to be mostly OR (incl. the title). It does not appear to be a hoax, however. But there appears to be little secondary literature. Srnec (talk) 00:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

http://ww1weatherreports.wikifoundry.com/

Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:43, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Just FYI @WP:MILHIST coordinators: an image and source review is needed for Battle of Leuthen and source review for Battle of Rossbach, in A class review. auntieruth (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to bring this discussion to the attention of MILHIST members. An editor would like to discredit two Napoleonic historians who have been referenced throughout the Battle of Waterloo article and appears to want to disallow them as reliable sources in any article on Wikipedia. Given the huge scope of the Napoleonic Era, I think this warrants serious attention. Since I am not aware of Wikipedia having an active "banned authors" list, I am not sure how the editor hopes to achieve this. I feel that his argument comes across as a smear campaign to invoke some form of censorship against the authors rather than a justified distrust of their reliability and validity as citable sources. I think we'll need more opinions on the matter as I'm not 100% sure how to deal with this situation, besides opposing what I believe to be biased and unsubstantiated claims. Talk:Battle of Waterloo#Inclusion of citations to discredited historians. Thanks — Marcus^(talk) 23:53, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello. The inclusion of "Great Mosque of al-Nuri (Mosul)" is debated at Talk:2017#Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul, where I invite you to join in. --George Ho (talk) 00:12, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

G'day all, if you've got a sec, Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/Royal Yugoslav Navy/archive1 has been open for quite a long time and hasn't attracted much attention. All comments, positive and negative, will be appreciated. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:54, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

• Battle of Tora Bora (2017) has just been created today and needs review.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

• Hi, Berean Hunter the correct place to request an assessment is at the Requests for assessment page. The link to it (not only here), is in the Project box to the left side of this page at the top. List your article there, and someone will review it and let you know!  :)_ auntieruth (talk) 18:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you but I didn't write it and not asking for an assessment. Recently there were socks writing about similar topics, as above, so I was looking for more eyes to check out the veracity and accuracy.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 12:30, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Sock?Keith-264 (talk) 08:41, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

I've warned them for flag icon bombing. Let me know if you see it carrying on? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

"flag icon bombing" ;o) OK, thanks Keith-264 (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Could someone take a look at the article of John Clarence Butler, recipient of the Navy Cross for his actions in World War II and determine if the "tags" are really justified? If they are not, could someone please remove them. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

The unrefrenced tag was incorrect and redundant with the notability tag. I removed the unreferenced one. The article still needs some independent sources to prove notability. --Finlayson (talk) 14:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I just thought that since Butler was awarded our second highest military decoration and that a ship and airfield were named after him, that that in itself made him notable. I guess I was wrong. Thank you once more. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

@Marine 69-71:I'm not the most experienced editor here, but even I can see this article needs fleshing out. The problem is that the lead section is all from one reference. Surely there was some other mention made in other sources. Perhaps someone's memoirs that had fought beside him, maybe a report on the battle? Having everthing about him be in the lead isn't enough. Is there anything about why he joined the navy? Were his parents involved in his choice? Was he married to his high school sweetheart? Make him live for us. — Myk Streja ^(who?) 03:54, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

• Don't get me wrong, I too believe that the article needs additional substance. I just happened to visit the Buckeye Municipal Airport and saw that there was an "Ensign John C. Butler" airfield there. Then when I checked in Wikipedia I came upon his article which lacked references. As a good member of the Wikipedia community, I took it upon myself to add some references and made some minor edits. But, I do not have any particular interest in the article. I'll leave the addition of material to the creator of the article or anyone else who may be interested. I just wanted to know if the "Notability tags" were justified that's all. Once again thank you for the input. Tony the Marine (talk) 05:51, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

On 7 May User @Elektrofisch: published an article on German propaganda images from the Nazi era and how they are used in the Wikipedia, entitled Probleme mit Nazi-Heldenbildern ("Problems with images of Nazi heroes") in the de:Wikipedia:Kurier (the German equivalent of the Signpost). He explains how these images originated and what they were to convey, deals with problems of forgery by image editing (both contemporary and later), iconography and copyright issues. I won't go into the details of his argument, but his conclusion is that the use of these images in the German Wikipedia is neither responsible nor historiographically accurate. There is also a lively debate on the talk page. The argument has been made that other Wikipedia projects seem to have less problems in using these images. I know that some contributors here speak German, so I thought I would draw your attention to that article. Furthermore, it seems to me that two issues merit discussion here: First, I ran across an retouched image of Fedor von Bock. It's currently used most prominently in the article on Bock. While the German original is b/w, the image has been colored by some Wikipedia user in 2010. I consider that to be a distortion and would like to know, whether it is consensus in the English Wikipedia to use retouched images. Second, I noticed that propaganda images of Knight's Cross recipients are quite often used in the English Wikipedia with an additional description for the visually impaired. Some of these descriptions are considerably detailed and emphasize, for example, a "determined facial expression". Wouldn't it rather be appropriate to emphasize the propagandistic character and iconographic quality of those images?--Assayer (talk) 18:36, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

will answer your second point.

No, no more then any other similar image from any other nation.Slatersteven (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Firstly, images are often retouched to improve contrast and clarity. I see no problem with that sort of retouching. Where images are retouched to change the appearance of a person, I would say that isn't ok. Secondly, alt text for images can be edited by anyone, and isn't even a requirement for images used in a Featured Article, last time I checked. The description should reflect what the person looks like as best as that can be conveyed by text. That could include a description of the person's expression where that is pertinent; laughing, crying, stern, grim etc. To a significant extent it is subjective, of course, but we are trying to help the visually impaired here, not write an essay on the use of propaganda. If you feel that the alt text isn't reflective of an image, feel free to edit it. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:27, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

I think a careful, lifelike colourisation isn't a problem - it's up to the community whether to use it or not, though. (Hohum ^@) 18:40, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

I am a little confused: Is colorization a kind of retouche which changes the appearance of a person and thus should not be used, or is it not? I think that it is a significant alteration of the original and thus such images should not be used, because the subsequent changes are by no means clear to the casual reader/viewer. Color photography was available in the 1930s and 1940s, so coloring b/w pictures makes it impossible to distinguish between genuine color photography and b/w pictures. Moreover, the approach of portrait photography in b/w is different from that in color. It requires a different technique and a different way of seeing (light & shade, texture). What's the community's take on that?--Assayer (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

I find the Bundesarchiv captions to be helpful as it makes it easy to distinguish a properly licensed photo from a fair-use one. On the colourising, I don't quite get it. I consider it to be unauthentic and pointless. But apparently there's quite a cottage industry dedicated to colourising Nazi era photos: there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such images at Commons.

Sample: File:Bundesarchiv Bild 146-1990-048-29A, Adolf Hitler-colorized.jpg, which I can only describe as garish. I attempted (unsuccessfully) to get it deleted: Commons:Deletion Request, but it looks like a fool's errand. More examples: Werner Mölders Recolored.png or Kaserne der LSSAH, Recolored.jpg, etc.

My thinking is that if we are going to use propaganda images, we might as well use the original versions, without retouching. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:54, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree that only original images should be used. An article should not puff-up its topic by adding pretty colors or icons unless with good reason. A reason might be that a particular colorized image has been noted as significant in secondary sources. Encyclopedic content requires the use of authentic material and editors should not have to wonder whether a particular colorized image is "correct". Johnuniq (talk) 02:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

It is not just "Nazi era photos", which are being colorized; many Allied photos and even film is being done, as well; this to present it to a generation who have only grown up on color film and TV and give it more of an appearance of what it looked like in real life. That is the reasons I have read, anyway. And it gives the so-called "History Channel" reason to produce new shows. Seriously, I don't feel strongly about colorization, unless it really distorts and changes the original photo, but leave it to others to sort out. I must say I prefer the Bundesarchiv captions on the edge of the photos, as it clearly shows it is a free use photo; at least it should be on the original uploaded version on Commons. Kierzek (talk) 15:22, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I consider it a lot like using 19th and 20th century imagined portraits for medieval people - colorization isn't quite as bad, but it's still not the same as the original. As a photographer, you do approach black and white photography differently than you do color, and guessing what the colors might have been is at best a guessing game. I'm less concerned with using some of the "action" Bundesarchiv images - as long as we avoid using the original captions when they are in Nazi-terms/propaganda. I don't think we can totally outlaw using even the worst propaganish images, because there will be occasions when they are appropriate - some of the worst bits can be used to illustrate just how bad their thinking was, for example. As for using the portraits - it's no worse than using any photographic portrait - the lead image in Winston Churchill is clearly designed to show Winston in a pugnacious, fighting, etc mood as you would expect from something taken in 1941. Should we not use that because it's a propoganda piece also? All things need to be taken with care. It'd be nice to have the de:wiki essay translated for those of us with crappy German, however. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

B/W imagery, for example WW I footage, has already been colorized by contemporaries. That's a primary source by itself. But retrospective colorization, which has become popular for TV documentaries, not at least because of the availability of modern computer technology, is a different thing. Such documentaries have received mixed reviews, and much criticism was directed against colorization as such. As one reviewer put it, the viewers are being "cheated". Historians, however, generally do not deal with colorized images. The integrity of the primary source has to be maintained. Noone would seriously consider to change the language of a primary source to make it more accessible or less offensive for today's audiences. Thus Wikipedia should also consider colorization to be an inappropriate manipulation of a primary source.

I did not argue that propaganda images should not be used at all. But the problem is that photography renders a peculiar impression of realism that is often not appropriate. I would be happy if those photography would be handled with as much care as 19th century imagined portraits of medieval people.--Assayer (talk) 23:54, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

At heart, I'm a medievalist. That means I'm used to having few contemporary sources, often incredibly biased sources, no images that could even come close to realism, and the constant fighting with the general public's misconceptions about medieval life and culture. Sometimes I wish I had simple worries like whether someone is colorizing photographs! That said - I'm not making light of the issue either. I would oppose "modern" colorizations if I ran into them on articles I'm editing - just as I oppose the use of Victorian engravings of medieval topics or the backwards insistence on using coat of arms for periods when there weren't any. All you can do is your best and that's all anyone can ask. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:06, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

I find colorization offensive as a practise. It's changing the original artist's vision in ways the viewer can't appreciate without seeing the uncolored photo, not unlike a pan and scan. That deceptiveness, however subtle, should be avoided in an encyclopedia, when uncolored examples exist. If colored photos are being used, they should be clearly labelled as "artist's impressions", just as notional planet photos are. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 16:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Even if colour was not a choice available to them?Slatersteven (talk) 17:50, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I colourised a few photos several years ago, mostly American Civil War photos of famous officers – so they would be daguerreotypes – though I never uploaded them to Wiki or anything public, I was really just playing about with Photoshop and found it an interesting process for a short time. In those cases, however, the officers are wearing their uniforms, we know the colour of Union and Confederate uniforms, so it's not really an "artist's impression" in that case, it's more like remastering a damaged film and adding missing data based on what we know. Naturally, we can't be 100% sure if we're getting skin, hair and eye colours accurate, but like any kind of history, it comes down to interpreting the sources and translating them into something that is considered accurate. There's no such thing as "100% accurate" research because sources always vary in details, but there is such thing as coming close, and I think, in some cases, colourising can achieve a realistic result. The photographer would have been seeing his subject in colour, it's his machine that made it black and white. Colourisation is, in a sense, like translating a source from one language to another – some translators stick to a strict literal word-for-word translation, some embellish their translation a little to maintain the spirit of the source, while some go further to modernise the tone (e.g. Les Miserables Wilbour vs Denny vs Rose). The same can be said for the Bible and its many complete translations in English alone, which all vary in tone, grammar, wording and interpretation. Anyone approaching colourising a historic b/w photo seriously isn't just going at it like some "colour by numbers", and it would by wrong to imply that everyone who colourises photos for public use does not always research to see what colour uniforms should be, or what colour hair/eyes someone had, or what colour Hitler's suit may have been instead of just making it grey or beige because it suits him. It's only when those options have been exhausted and the artist has to improvise that colorisation becomes less reliable and artistic licence. If photo sources should only be used in their original/pure form, then that puts a lot of other things we do into question, such as using recreation photos of enactments, photos of replica weapons/armour, etc. Is it not the case that all dinosaur bones in museums are made from casts, that displays showing what a prehistoric environment looked like are recreated from evidence, that Wikipedia is full of maps that have been recreated "based on" original maps. Many of those add colours, topography and use the NATO Joint Military Symbology that wouldn't have been on Napoleonic, WW1, WW2 map – yet we accept them – we add detail so we can understand it more – based on some of the arguments here shouldn't we be scanning original maps and seeing it as commanders saw it back then. So there is a form of hypocrisy underlying any rejection of "all" colourised photos, given that we widely use other forms of imagery that were created by editors. I think it's a misconception that colourising photos is "wrong" per se. I think it has its uses and can have added value in limited situations, but it shouldn't be widely encouraged. To call it irresponsible is somewhat hyperbolic, but there should be some restraint – we don't need to see everything in colour, but in some cases it enhances the experience and can add a bit of substance to bland images. — Marcus^(talk) 09:41, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

"Even if colour was not a choice available to them?" I don't see a distinction. And I don't agree it's equivalent of remastering; that retains the original. (As opposed to the "remastering" of "STTOS", which added fresh material.) Would you colorize "Citizen Kane"? Why not? There's difference between photos of reproductions & colorized pictures, IMO: where originals don't exist, we use what's available. Colorized pictures imply original b&w ones are. Nor do I accept adding map symbols is the same; it's not like that's changing the borders or the place names. (Translating them isn't "changing".) Is it irresponsible? IDK. It should be unacceptable as encyclopedic practise, IMO. And saying "add a bit of substance to bland images" implies a b&w image can't have its own power or influence, which is a view colored (so to speak) by a bias against b&w, or, perhaps, a "currentist" (is that a word?) POV. I'd sooner have authenticity than color, because there's really no way of knowing how much "improvisation" has been done, nor how careful the research has been--& a colorized photo is nothing more than a particular person's guess; the viewer shouldn't be left thinking it's a more authoritative guess than anybody else's. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 13:17 & 13:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

ST:TOS is a different type of remastering which was done to bring the effects in-line with those of newer ST series' for the sake of remarketing it to younger audiences and for older fans wanting better CGI effects, since they were very dated and often clunky. I'm referring to standard remastering, not altering the content just cleaning the image - sharpening, removing scratches, gamma balance, and things that don't change the film, just make it clearer. Yes, there are plenty of old b/w films that could potentially be colourised, not with fake colour but by the use of chroma dots found on some film, as was identifed during the remastering of the Classic Doctor Who series. Several episodes in the Jon Pertwee era where only black and white film could be found were colourised using this technique because his era was aired in colour. A machine is able to identify real colours from the chromadots and covert the b/w to colour once it is digitised. Not interpretation, but rather a form of restoration. Couldn't care less about Citizen Kane, haven't seen it... what is considered "a classic" is subjective, I don't hold to this "purist" nonsense some people spout, it's a form of Ludditeism IMO and what led to undue attacks on George Lucas and him losing it with Star Wars fans, because a small number of nerdy virgin fans accused him of "meddling" and drove him nuts. Regardless, colourisation of some photos could be considered a form of restoration, bringing reality to an artificial image – since b/w and sepia are not how we see the real world, and colour is – what the camera was technically incapable of capturing, digital technology can attempt to apply, but should be done in moderation. As I said, colourising is not always a "person's guess" – at least no more than an editor weighing up a bunch of conflicting sources for an article and deciding which to apply. In reality, we're all subjecting Wiki to bias in some shape or form, whether you choose to accept it or not. As for my "bland images" comment, you took that out of context and mistakenly implied that I meant "all b/w are bland". What I mean when I say "in some cases" is just that: in some cases. For example, there are hundreds, possibly thousands, of daguerreotype photos of American soldiers taken before and during the Civil War, probably by Mathew Brady, and the vast majority of them are stuck in the same pose... overall, it's a rather unimaginative and bland collection, and only the notable figures really attract attention. Seeing a handful of them retouched and colourised introduces a freshness, allows us to see clothing, uniforms, etc in colour. It's not like we're doing a mashup between a piece of classical Mozart and an Eminem song. Human eyes see colour and in some cases it's seeing things in colour that makes us appreciate the "romanticism" of black and white imagery. And that's what I think many people's love for black and white imagery truly is – it's quaint, romantic, an example of early technology, bygone times... but that shouldn't stop us wanting a limited number of coloured examples, also, because our natural sight is designed to see people and things from a coloured POV – b/w is not a natural concept – that's a fact, not a bias. Bias would be rejecting b/w for no good reason, colouring everything for the sake of just adding colour, and making history completely artificial. One of the most amazing pre-colour photos in existence is that of the Duke of Wellington as an old man. It's a very low-quality image, I've even sharpened and colourised it out of curiosity. But I still consider the original far superior, in this instance. — Marcus^(talk) 14:36, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

An example can be found in Arthur S. Carpender. The black and white original is a scan I made from an 8"x10" photograph in my possession. Someone decided to produce a colourised version, for reasons unknown. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

♠"ST:TOS is a different type of remastering which was done to bring the effects in-line with those of newer ST series'" Had that been all that was done, I wouldn't complain; the Doomsday Machine is much more dangerous-looking with the remastered "maw". The trouble is, footage was added to (every?) episode (sometimes only a few seconds' worth at a time), which amounts to re-directing, which is no different than a pan & scan.

♠That said, if we were discussing the development of "ST" or its history, I'd oppose using images from the "remastered" DVDs, except to illustrate the difference, precisely because they aren't period correct any more. At least with "TOS", you have the option to turn it off. Here? Not so much.

♠If it's possible to identify color, & restore it faithfully, I'd be fine with that--provided we're told it's been done, & it's not simple guesswork.

♠As for "luddite", no. I just can't imagine "Citizen Kane" or "Maltese Falcon" in color. I think there's an esthetic unity involved, & that shouldn't be tampered with, because it's tampering with the director's original vision. I'd no more take the color out of "Star Wars" (tho I happen to agree with the fans who think Lucas should've left it alone, after the fx shots were remastered... It starts to smell of greed, & it interferes with the narrative flow, the same way Marvel did "restoring" the unprinted pages of early New X-men...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 06:30, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Battle for Caen I wonder if interested parties would mind taking a look at the article and the discussions on the talk page and offering opinions on the way the article is developing?Keith-264 (talk) 12:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

• @Keith-264: I left message on talk page. It's developing but it's still not clear to me what these different operations were--were they all separate attempts to take Caen? I like the way you and your coeditor are trying to collaborate. good job. auntieruth (talk) 21:43, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

They made Caen progressively untenable by inflicting attrition on the Germans each time they contained an Anglo-Canadian attack but the attrition mattered more than the town.Keith-264 (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, these operations were indeed a series of separate attempts to take Caen - most of them unsuccessful and each one incurring as many British casualties as German casualties. The unhappy response by Eisenhower - Montgomery's boss - to each failed attempt to capture the town, and the fact that Eisenhower was in the process of sacking Montgomery for his repeated failures to capture the town, make it very clear that capturing the town mattered very much indeed. However there is a "movement" that seeks to whitewash Montgomery, and to make it seem that Montgomery never failed, by retroactively altering the objectives. Montgomery himself was a major member of this "movement". Wdford (talk) 23:19, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

as a result of reading that, I went and read the article on Ike's military career. The criticism section is modest in size and scope and could probably use addressing. GraemeLeggett (talk) 07:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

As you can see, WD has a rather 1970s conspiracy theory of the subject and is unwilling to address scholarship since then on the question of Caen. The need to keep attacking in the east because of the slow progress in the west is also being overlooked. I fear that the article is being twisted by advocacy and synth. Keith-264 (talk) 19:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

This comment is inaccurate to the point of mendacity. There is no “1970s conspiracy theory”, and my edits are based on the most recent scholarship. The need to keep attacking in the east is fully recognised in the article, but I also record the view of almost all historians that the stated objective was the CAPTURE of Caen, not the launching of repeated failed attacks on Caen. Even D’Este, probably the historian most favorably disposed toward Montgomery, states that the capture of Caen was one of Montgomery’s primary objectives. I also record the view of almost all historians that Montgomery was deceptive, and once again, even D’Este agrees with this theme. So please – where is the “advocacy and synth” that he is fretting about? Wdford (talk) 22:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

I have already mentioned on the talk page that I'm cutting my losses because I'm wasting my time. Consider this

Even D’Este, probably the historian most favorably disposed toward Montgomery, states that the capture of Caen was one of Montgomery’s primary objectives.

So were Carentan and St Lo; Monty was the ground forces commander not just the Anglo-Canadian commander. US failures in the east were his just as much as the successes on both flanks were.Keith-264 (talk) 23:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

The US forces were in the west, and it was the British who were failing in the east. Carentan and St Lo were part of the Normandy Invasion, but they were not part of the Battle of Caen, and are in fact far removed from Caen. Where is the "advocacy and synth" that you were complaining about? Wdford (talk) 06:07, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

This is a conclusion, not a description. Keith-264 (talk) 06:53, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Commonwealth forces were not failing in the east but were steadily destroying the German forces by attrition. The German Army contained the eastern offensives at the cost of expending their armour and mobile reserves when sound military tactics would have called for withdrawal before the inevitable catastrophe. The Battle for Caen ended with the German Army in France suffering a crushing defeat and near annihilation. It was Montgomery who commanded the victorious forces and it was his flexible strategy that led to victory. Damwiki1 (talk) 14:20, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I changed my mind about cutting my losses having fetched a few more sources from storage and tried another request here (see below) framed to avoid it being a content dispute but a survey of opinion about form. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

The long-promised re-write of the Analysis section is done and interested editors are invited to take a look. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

http://generalstab.org/links/official-histories-ww1/links-special-official-histories-of-the-first-world-war/

Regards, Keith-264 (talk) 19:10, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Keith, I've added this to the resources section of the World War I task force. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:43, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

We hear on the news that one aircraft intercepts another, or even one boat intercepts another. Visitors must be arriving at Wikipedia to find out what this is. The newspapers never give a definition.

Interception goes to a football article. Interception (disambiguation) and Intercept are dab pages. We have Interceptor aircraft, but there is little about how it all happens in modern times.

Should we have a new article that talks about the procedure with boats and planes?

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Visitors often arrive at Wikipedia, only to find out that it is not a dictionary. Maritime and aviation usage differ enough for separate articles to be appropriate, for example the term is far more common in the context of aircraft. Speaking for aircraft, we already have Interceptor aircraft and it is nowhere near long enough to consider splitting. By all means expand that article and, if it ever gets too long, that would be the time to propose a split. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:09, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Would it be sufficient to define interceptor fighter by contrasting it with the zone fighter in pre-1939 thinking? Keith-264 (talk) 19:19, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't think you can do that, since even in 1939, the goal was to intercept, tho it might not have been described the same way. (And GCI, as a term, isn't really that recent...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:34, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Interceptor had a specific meaning. Keith-264 (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Some information in a European context at Quick Reaction Alert. Alansplodge (talk) 21:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

To try to establish the semblance of consensus for the article, I would like opinions on the best way to combine the history of the fighting for Caen and the writing about it since. Are these really two articles rather than one? Should the description of events be more strictly segregated from explanation? Is it pointless to argue about the Aftermath without a Prelude? Are RS, NPOV, SYNTH and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Military_history#Sources (and any others) being adequately adhered to? NB I have an obvious potential conflict of interest, which is why I'm asking about objective matters here. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 12:20, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Personally, reading the article and having a laymans knowledge of the debate, I think there is enough for an article on the dispute. It is a significant dispute in military historical terms and would, I would suggest, meet notability. This would allow stripping out a lot of contentious material from the article. But you may then have a tighter focussed dispute over how to handle a summary of the dispute in the article itself. Monstrelet (talk) 12:50, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I had the same doubts about the Schlieffen Plan but perhaps the "History of the Schlieffen Plan" section and the material being recondite avoided irreconcilable differences over content. I'm thinking that at least we could corral the controversy stuff in a "Histories of the battle for Caen" section under a 2nd level header? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:28, 28 May 2017 (UTC)Keith-264 (talk) 14:30, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

There is a proposal to include Cullum numbers in Wikidata to improve authority control, etc. Please feel free to comment at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/Cullum_number TeriEmbrey (talk) 15:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I voted to support the idea. I'm concerned that the on-line access is restricted to members of WPAOG. Does anyone know if the association would consider sharing content through the Wikipedia:Library?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 22:09, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I've requested access to The Register of Graduates at Wikipedia:The_Wikipedia_Library/Databases/Requests#The_Register_of_Graduates.2C_U.S._Military_Academy. Comments welcome, at least by me, at that page/section.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 18:18, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

In the Index of World War II articles series, shouldn't people be listed by their last names?

It seems to me that this is one of those questions to which it is easy to answer "yes" (and I do), but who will assume the onus of doing it? --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:22, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I'll start, maybe even today. --Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 15:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

The site was reconfigured last night and there are glitches with accessing some collection item. The "old site" can be accessed at while they are sorting things out. Regards Cinderella157 (talk)

Thanks - I was wondering what the issue was myself. It mostly seems to work in Chrome but not my old IE version. Anotherclown (talk) 08:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm in the middle of using it for a bio, and all the links have changed... I can't say it is a lot easier to navigate. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

It's certainly much less nerd friendly at the moment... Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I looked in it yesterday and found that the easy click click has been replaced by vagueness. Has it been commercialised? Keith-264 (talk) 15:44, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

It looks like it has been made more "social media friendly". There is nothing wrong with this, as long as the old functionality is also retained, which sadly is often not the case. From the banner at the top of the old site:

The Memorial’s new website is available at https://www.awm.gov.au . The updated site features a new design, improved search functionality and better access to our collection and staff knowledge. This old version of the website will be decommissioned within the coming weeks.

Carcharoth (talk) 12:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I have opened a discussion at Talk:Battle of Maldon#Day and month of the battle, and am notifying the WikiProjects identified on that page. Narky Blert (talk) 22:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

This is a dispute about date. Made a comment there. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 02:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I found a reference which describes how the August date was sourced from contemporary records, which I have added to the article. The claim about Whitsun seems to be without foundation and has been removed. Alansplodge (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Resolved

Damon Jesse Gause doesnt appear to be particularly notable although claimed as s "Hero of World War II", ahould it be nominated for deletion? thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 22:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if there are any other escapees from Bataan. That may be enought to make him ntable, but I'm neutral so far. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)-

Three new articles on books about disinformation tactics as used during information warfare :

1. Disinformation (book)
2. The KGB and Soviet Disinformation
3. Dezinformatsia (book)

I've nominated them both for Good Article. If anyone wants to grab one of them for GA review, that would be nice. Sagecandor (talk) 01:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Added one more new one: Dezinformatsia (book). Sagecandor (talk) 17:48, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

These three above are now nominations for good article. Sagecandor (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Would some kind soul point me towards a locator map (the sort that you can put red dots and place names on) of Normandy please?Keith-264 (talk) 15:38, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Gday Keith - is this suitable for your purposes? Relevant commons category is here I think. Anotherclown (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

BTW if you need some minor changes to the file above (like colours) I have some *very* limited experience with modifying .svg images so would be willing to have a shot for you if you tell me what is needed and can point me in the direction of a source. No guarantees though! Anotherclown (talk) 23:59, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Greetings,

Lion-sur-Mer

Caen

Vierville-sur-Mer

Cherbourg

COSSAC plan

I managed this but I'm looking for a Normandy map. I found

this but don't know how it goes into the template (if at all). I tried Normandy, Normandie, Basse-Notmandie here {{Location map+ |France instead of France but no good. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 00:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Keith I'm out of my depth with this too. Is there anyone else able to assist? Anotherclown (talk) 00:24, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

How about:

Lion-sur-Mer

Caen

Vierville-sur-Mer

Cherbourg

COSSAC plan

This is "France Basse-Normandie" to the east would be "France Haute-Normandie"

Or the relief map:

Lion-sur-Mer

Caen

Vierville-sur-Mer

Cherbourg

COSSAC plan

Oooooh I feel such a berk! ;O) Thanks....Keith-264 (talk) 07:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

PS Vierville and Lion had the same coordinates [no they didn't] so I think I'll experiment with Ouistreham.Keith-264 (talk) 07:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Roy Godson.

New page.

Expert on national security, covert operations, information warfare.

Please expand with more references if you like. Sagecandor (talk) 15:53, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Clint Watts

New article.

Former United States Army officer.

Former Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Foreign policy analyst and has repeatedly testified on cyber security matters, before the United States Senate, and the United States House of Representatives.

Could use some work and expansion if anyone wants.

Thanks!

Sagecandor (talk) 20:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Improved it more after a Prod . Sagecandor (talk) 21:39, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

This is now a nomination for good article. Sagecandor (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

In the process of translating the German Wikipedia article on the Bundesstraße 432 to English, I found an interesting article: de:Sprengschacht. I wanted to translate the article, since it refers to hatches built into streets during the Cold War which, when detonated, would slow the advance of Warsaw Pact troops. However, I don't know a suitable translation for the title of the article. When viewing a machine translated version of the article, it disagrees on what to call it, calling it "explosive bay" in the title and "blasting pit" in the first paragraph.

I have two questions. First, does English Wikipedia already have an article on the subject, and second, if it doesn't, what is an accurate translation of the German word "Sprengschacht?"

Thanks,

DraconicDark (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• Don´t know if there is an according article. However the U.S. Army manual "FM 5-102: Countermobility" of 1985, respective chapter available online over here, covers it as demolition shaft and prechamber shaft system. ...GELongstreet (talk) 23:50, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• DraconicDark (talk · contribs), you can tell if there is a corresponding article in another language by looking in the left column (menu) under "Other languages". In this case there is a n article nl:Springschacht in Dutch, but there is no corresponding article in English. I would call it Blasting Chamber (Cold War).... 16:02, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Just want to encourage an informal discussion, here, for project members. How do you rate or view yourself in terms of your historical interests?

Consider your interest not just in relation to editing Wikipedia, but in terms of how you behave in relation to your prefered areas of history: collecting books, war films, documentaries, etc.

Do you call yourself a history buff, an armchair general, an amateur historian, a professional historian, something inbetween? Is it just a hobby or something deeper? Are you in a society or club that encourages learning and sharing things?

Do you attend reenactments or visit museums, castles, and similar historical places or special events often to expand your knowledge? Do you attend archaeological digs or go treasure hunting? Do you take trips or holidays to places with a historical relevance in order to learn rather than relax?

What drives your interest: just learning it, some kind of nostalgia, had a relative serve in a war, maybe you served yourself and want to know more about other wars?

There are people who say NASA and such space projects are a huge waste of money because there is too much to worry about on Earth to spend time looking at stars and galaxies, but there are also people who say looking at the past is a waste of time, that we should focus on the living, the present and future. How do you feel about anti-history sentiments? Is it an important and under-valued subject? Has it become a lost art that has faded from the curriculum of many schools due to political correctness, or an adversity to what is relevant to a country, or simply because governments and school boards can't decide what should and shouldn't be included? What should be mandatory, if anything?

Please feel free to discuss your background, feelings and impressions in detail regarding your interest, commitment and involvement in learning history and what it means to you personally.

Thanks — Marcus^(talk) 19:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I've been interested in history ever since I could read and at college in the early-80s, tended to a structural-functional perspective on society. I think that great man explanations are an embarrassment and treat class conflict as the main force determining events; perhaps unusually for someone who takes military history seriously, I'm an anarchist. After the late-80s, I had little time for serious research but after cutting my working hours in the late-90s, devoted more time to it and a little to my surprise, found that I had become interested in the Great War for the first time since reading Biggles in the late 60s. Having spent 16 years working in residential services, concentrating on the effect of structure and organisation on human behaviour, I found many analogies between my experience and the effort that Great War armies made to adapt to industrial warfare. I stumbled on Wikipedia when I joined the interweb in the early 2000s and after a slow start, taking out punctuation marks next to conjunctions, began to write as well as copy-edit.

I joined a small informal group which was going through many of the Normandy 1944 articles, adding the results of the scholarship of the campaign that had been written since the early 90s, some of which revised the revisionists of the 70s and 80s. After that, I got started on the Western front articles 1914–1917, with occasional excursions into obscure areas and I've been there ever since putting in description, which tends to balance facile explanations from the mediocre historians who give military history a bad name. Some newer publications have advanced our understanding of the war and I've been able to revise some of my revisions to articles; I've got more critical of commercially published hackwork as it's got easier to spot, especially with the centenaries to be cashed in on (not that I'm bitter that they've got the gig instead of me, obviously). Along with finding it interesting, writing for free on Wikipedia is a way of repaying the generations of British people who from the Somme in 1916, built the working class welfare state, which gave me a house to live in, the doctors and teachers my family could never have afforded and the chance to avoid the fate of Billy Casper. Keith-264 (talk) 00:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I was interested in history from an early age. I still read a lot of history books. I wrote my Master's thesis on the Great War, and later my PhD on the Second World War. I have contributed to some books. Living in Canberra gives you access to good military libraries and archives. Most of the military records are kept in the Australian War Memorial here. I do attend conferences when I can, and enjoy talking to historians, especially ones from other countries. I have enjoyed travelling to battlefields around the world. I started updating the Wikipedia in 2006.

Historians, like scientists, have always pointed to the usefulness of their work, lest it be considered on the same level (of funding) as the humanities. Military historians generally enjoy the support of the military, who appreciate the value of lessons learned; but are disliked by other historians, particularly those of the Baby Boomer generation. If I was allowed to put up a shingle and teach Military History 101, I could pack a lecture theatre; but universities are not run on the basis of what the undergraduates want to learn. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:11, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I've been interested in history since about Grade 6, thanks to Ned Beach's Run Silent, Run Deep. I've since gotten interested in the history of war (mostly) more broadly; the political (or grand strategic) is much less interesting to me. It's not just what was, tho; I'm also a member at an alternate history website, where we can examine what might have been (which bears on my other passion, science fiction, to which I came even before Beach; blame Tom Swift for that ;p ). I tend to concentrate on the WW2 era, but I'll look at anything that strikes my fancy, from Ancient Rome to the 100 Years War to Vietnam. (I've read all the Dorsai novels, too. ;p No Saberhagen, tho.) Why do I contribute what I do? Because I know there are people out there who are interested in the same things I am, & may not be able to find the sources I have available; at the same time, I hope to attract & encourage others with sources & material I don't have, so I can learn, too. For me, that's probably the key: I'll always learn something interesting. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 06:37, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Like other respondents, I have been interested in history since I was young. After some changes of mind, I wound up getting my bachelor's degree in history (perhaps impractical, but since I had been offered a commission and entry to pilot training, all I needed for the job was my AB. I'd guess that one influence was World War II (my father and two uncles were in the Army Air Forces, one uncle in the infantry and another in armor). Although my focus is on US Air Force (and predecessors) history, my current reading is two opposites The House of Truth (about a progressive/liberal salon in the early 20th century and its impact on liberal thinking) and The Evangelicals: The Struggle to Shape America. Not always US, though, prior to that it was The Romanovs. --Lineagegeek (talk) 22:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

• I was on the leading edge of the baby boomers -- conceived in the joyous reunion of the boys returning from war to the girls who had waited for them. My earliest recollections were of the family reunions where my father and three uncles told of their various experiences on warships, in bombers, crossing the beach at Normandy, and time as a POW. There were more war stories from the fathers of my classmates, and from our male teachers. We wore our fathers' helmet liners and web canteen belts to school where we dug foxholes on the playground during recess. As a college engineering student, my professors included a dive-bomber pilot at the battle of Midway, and men who had built and tested the first atomic bombs in New Mexico. Vietnam seemed my generation's chance to gain a piece of the glory our fathers had enjoyed. The difference between my combat experience in Vietnam and the stories of our fathers gave me incentive to explore those differences and apply my engineering background to understanding the mechanisms of industrialized warfare in the era of plentiful resources. Thewellman (talk) 06:15, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I've temporarily protected List of wars involving Bulgaria to put a stop to the foolishness, but can some other people watchlist it for the stupidity that will inevitably occur from assorted range-hopping IPs and SPAs. For months now they've been editwarring to get versions of this text into it in which Bulgaria single-handedly wins every war of the 20th century, including WWI, WWII, the Vietnam War and even the Rwandan Civil War. You won't need any specialized knowledge of Bulgaria, as the edits are so ridiculously overblown they're very easy to spot. (Sample quotes: The Bulgarian Army Annihilates the Isreali Navy, Airforce and Army of Tanks, Bulgaria and the Central Powers Annihilate the Allies on the Entire Eastern Front, Bulgaria Commits Genocide to a Majority to The Rwandan Population.) ‑ Iridescent 19:41, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

The list is based on unreferenced 3 line stubs which contradict its content. Other issues include grammar and Bulgarian POV pushing in the Result section. How this simple list became such a disaster is beyond me.--Catlemur (talk) 20:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

What I know about Bulgaria could be written on a stamp; I just reverted the most obvious stupidity such as Bulgaria's defeat of the USSR in World War II and protected it to stop any more crap being added. I've no idea how far back the crazy goes here. (I know Middle Ages has had long-standing issues with Bulgarian nationalists pushing hyper-fringe theories about Bulgaria being the dominant power in Europe, so I suspect this is more of the same.) ‑ Iridescent 20:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, the table at the top is a duplication of the bullet list below it, except that the table has a lot of POV pushing and at points sounds like Bulgarian nationalist propaganda. Kges1901 (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi, I've made two articles that I think are relevant to the project, they are "RAVISGUR" which is some kind of supervisory unit of the Croatian police in world war 2. And a commander of the first US army, 173rd airborne brigade, etc. "James H. Johnson Jr." I do not know how to link these two articles to the project, can someone add them please? Factsoverfeelings (talk) 21:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I added the necessary WikiProject tags to RAVISGUR. I suggest reading the following guidelines to improve the article: WP:CAT and WP:FOOTNOTES. Cheers.--Catlemur (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Merger of Battle of Chamdo into Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China is proposed. It is discussed at Talk:Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China#Merger Discussion, where I invite you to comment. --George Ho (talk) 03:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

The song A Small Victory has nothing to do with WWI, however the accompanying cover art and videoclip are WWI related does it belong to the WWI in popular culture article?--Catlemur (talk) 11:06, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm... the soldier seems to be wearing a Mk IV Service Respirator (introduced in 1926) and is holding a clip of ammunition for a 40 mm Bofors gun (in British service from Sep 1939), so I'm going with the Second conflict. Alansplodge (talk) 12:56, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, this is more likely to be a US soldier, in which case the earliest it can be is 1940. Alansplodge (talk) 13:00, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: Well the music video seems to be depicting a mix of both wars, as the Germans are wearing WWI era helmets.--Catlemur (talk) 14:09, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, with some Roman legionaries for good measure. Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

The photo was used on the cover of LIFE magazine, September 18, 1939 issue, with the title "Britain Goes to War". — Marcus^(talk) 14:11, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

That explains the 1902 Service Dress tunic instead of the 1938 Pattern Battledress. Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)