Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pakistani politics/Archive 1

Discussion move from User talk:Saad Ali Khan Pakistan

Constituency pages I have created many page about onstituencies in Muzaffargarh. These all pages are about seprate newly created constituencies for election 2018 on the basis on 2017 census. I have already discus this other editor. So, please don't redirect them or consult before doing such actioon. According to ECP website, according to the Delimitation of Constituencies Act, 1974, the constituencies for elections to the National and Provincial Assemblies are to be delimited after every census.Ameen Akbar (talk) 13:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Ameen Akbar I have updated each constituency as of 2022 delimitations. You should not vandalize the pages. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 18:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Saad Ali Khan Pakistan I am not but you are vandalizing. Please use some common sense and answer my questions. Constituency PP-270 (Muzaffargarh-III) is my constituency. This is official and complete name of constituency. You redirect it to PP-270 Kot Addu-II. Kot Addu District is seprate district now. Tell me how can I mention my city's candidate of 2018 election in Kot Addu's, another district, page? You have deleted all candidate data of 2018 election of all cities. I admit that constituency pages are going more complicated after every delimitation especially 2002, but problem will solve after discussion of Pakistani users commiunity. So, please revert it back to proper page, where all candidates data is mention. Ameen Akbar (talk) 20:03, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Ameen Akbar You should see notification of constituencies delimitations 2022 by ECP. I have compared areas of each constituency in 2002-2013, 2018 and Tehsil's comprising of those constituencies. I have updated constituencies of all provinces of Pakistan and National Assembly. You can check those notification of 2022 delimitations on ECP website. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 20:09, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

You did not answer my quesion. This notification support all my pages. Now see areas of PP-270 in 2022 delimitation. This is delimitaion for 2013 and older election. Just compare all three offcial ecp's notifications for PP-270 or any other contituency. Why you are going only one notificaion? If you previously consult concered editors, you can use you hard work on other Pakistan related pages. Now we have to make correction again for all pages. I suggest we should discuss this problem at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pakistani politics and reach some conclution like Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indian constituencies).Ameen Akbar (talk) 20:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Ameen Akbar 2022 Delimitations are different from 2018 delimitations. Constituency maps have changed. 2018 delimitation notification is replaced by 2022. If you still have confusion than I cant do any thing for your questions Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 09:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

2022 Delimitation notification is for next election while 2018 delimitation notification is for 2018 election. 2022 notification will defunc old constituency. This does not effect old pages. Now we will mention in old pages that this "was" constituanecy in disctrict muzaffargarh and now defunc. There is proper tag in infobox. Just answer simple question, how I can mention 2018 election candidate of Muzaffargarh in Kot Addu District constituency? Ameen Akbar (talk) 10:26, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Ameen Akbar It will be added as in historical election results. Like some Constituencies of National Assembly are showing historical results with constituency no like NA-1_Upper_Chitral-cum-Lower_Chitral. I have start updating results of constituencies starting from PP-1 Attock. Results of some election is to be added and constituency will have full election results from 1970 to most recent 2018 elections. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 10:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Please stop your hard work on these pages untill we reach some conclusion after consulting other editors. I disagree with your proposal. It is not practical. After next delimitaion you have to redirect all pages to others. And please don't impose your self decision on other editors. You are changing hundreds of pages, so it should not done with your sole decision. Let me ask other editors, I will invite you there shortly and move this discussion there. Ameen Akbar (talk) 11:37, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Ameen Akbar Shut up man . Who are you to make decisions. If you would be that capable all constituency pages would be updated. I don't care of your agreements or disagreements. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 11:44, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Ameen Akbar (talk) 11:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hello Hey man im josh, User:MPGuy2824 and Eejit43, Hope you guys are doing well. This person named User:امین اکبر was messing with Muzaffargarh District articles. When I reverted them he started arguing about that. I don't know what is he up to. I invite you guys to be part of this discussion and stop him to vandalize constituency pages of Pakistan.

I have two suggestions

1- Remove the area name in the title and treat it as PP-1 or Constituency PP-1 and add all previous election data as sections. Redirect all new and old official names to PP-1. 2- Add the election year in the title, for example. PP-1 (election 2013) or PP-1 (election 2013-2018) Obaid Raza (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Previous Discussion from my talk page

Punjab constituencies inconsistencies Hi Ameen, has the numbering of the constituencies changed lately? e.g. You've created Constituency PP-271 (Muzaffargarh-IV), while according to Template:Constituencies of Punjab Assembly, PP-271 seems to be Bahawalpur-V, whereas Muzaffargarh-IV seems to be PP-254. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 01:37, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Dear MPGuy2824 let me clear. According to ECP website

So, Constituency PP-271 (Bahawalpur-V) and Constituency PP-254 (Muzaffargarh-IV) were created according to 1998 Census of Pakistan, so 2008 Pakistani general election and 2013 Pakistani general election were held for same Constituency. Election Commission of Pakistan delimit old and create new Constituency according 2017 Census of Pakistan. So Constituency PP-271 (Bahawalpur-V) for general election 2008 and 2013 while Constituency PP-271 (Muzaffargarh-IV) was for general election 2018. I also feel there are so many inconsistencies in constituencies pages, that may mislead users. I am working on this. After covering constituencies of Muzaffargarh, I will try to arrang all constituencies of country and provinces according to census or elections.I will also try to arrange Template:Constituencies of Punjab Assembly accordingly. Ameen Akbar (talk) 10:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion: rename all the constituencies (a few at a time) by removing the "Constituency PP-XYZ" part. Leave only the name of the constituency. Maybe that would solve a few inconsistencies. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 10:47, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

MPGuy2824 your suggestion is really good, rename Constituency PP Muzaffargarh-IV to Constituency PP Muzaffargarh-IV may solve many inconsistencies. But we are using Constituency name as per ECP.Ameen Akbar (talk) 11:42, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

You could think of the constituency number as just an arbitrary numbering and the name (Muzaffargarh-IV, in this instance) as the more important part. The ECP seems to be doing the numbering arbitrarily every time anyway. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 11:54, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I will think more about this and your suggestive way as well. I think these inconsistencies must be fix now, or this issue will become even worse.Ameen Akbar (talk) 12:40, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

This will mislead readers because everytime new pages will be created it will confuse readers. Constituency number and area comprising of constituency change after delimitations. Like in NA-1 Upper Chitral-cum-Lower Chitral all election results and Constituency no are shown. everytime if some one wants to see result of previous election they can find through one page. Constituency. I have merged constituencies with same area but different name according to the most recent Delimitations of 2022. I have started to update election results of those constituencies since 1970 elections to date.MPGuy2824 Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 12:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Ameen Akbar (talk) 12:06, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions

• First of all, admins should stop vandalizing of Mr. User:Saad Ali Khan Pakistan.Ameen Akbar

We should create pages of the constituency as per official names given by the election commission of Pakistan in their notification with the Constituency prefix. If the names of the two constituencies are the same but the area is different we should add the delimitation year in brackets after the name of the new page. All pages with the same number should be listed in the number page. For example, there should be a page with name PP-270, in this page all pages contian PP-70 listed with delimitation year. This list page should not be treated as Disambiguation. We can not merge all pages in PP-270 as it will create more ambiguity. Ameen Akbar (talk) 14:37, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

This will cause duplicate page and other issues like confusion. Constituencies should be named as of 2022 delimitations. Previous Election results of those constituencies should be added as historical election result.

My hometown NA constituency was NA-56 before 2018, NA-60 on 2018 delimitations and now it is NA-54. Provincial constituency was PP-13 Rawalpindi-XIII form 2002-2018, PP-11 Rawalpindi-VI in 2018 delimitations and PP-11 Rawalpindi-V in 2022 delimitations due to split of Murree from Rawalpindi District. If we create multiple pages it will cause confusion among readers. Using 2022 Delimitations updated pages with having previous election results will make everyone find data at one page easily.

I am planning to update each constituency result from 1970 to most recent election result like we see in Indian Constituencies and American House District pages. making pages having result of just 1 or 2 election does not make any sense. -Ameen Akbar Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 14:52, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Your suggestion is not practical. Add other suggestions or refine it more? Here is my question about your suggestion. How will you treat the next delimitation in 2023, which will announce after 2023 Census of Pakistan or after future census that will occur after five or ten years? Should we redirect old constituency pages every time as history? How will you adjust constituencies' names of 1970 election of Pakistan? There is no such constituency name like that in the new delimitation. You will have to create separate pages for them. The area, election result, by-election result, and voter statistics are sufficient data to create a new constituency page for each delimation. Ameen Akbar (talk) 18:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hong Kong does it this way. See New Territories West (1998 constituency), for example. The only thing is that they have very few (geographical) constituencies, while Pakistan has much more. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 06:23, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Hong Kong Constituency is a multi member constituency and also defunct one. Pakistani constituencies resemble more like US congressional districts. Take Example of CA-11, Areas comprising of Congressional district change but district/constituency name remains. Here in Pakistan constituencies are named after their districts. I have updated election result of PP-1 Attock-I Since 1970. Here you can see that constituency name changes everytime. If we make separate pages of each of former constituency than it will make confusions among the readers. I suggest we should use name of most recent delimitations but also add historic election results on them as well that if some one wish to see previous election result than they would easily access.

I am also planning to update election pages with complete constituency result in a list. Here in 2023 Punjab election so that everyone can easily see election result of their desire easily. I wish to see Pakistani election pages and constituency pages having complete informationj like Indian pages. eg Tripura. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 07:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Saad Ali Khan Pakistan You did not answer any of my question. If we go as you planed, what will happen after next delimitation? If election commission change PP-1 Attock-I to PP-542 Attock-I or PP-234 Attock-I, what will we do? As per your plan we have to redirect PP-1 Attock-I to new page and new page to another new page after future delimitations. You are increasing future responsibility of users regarding existing pages. On the other hand, I just want, we should not change title of pages next time and we can work on new pages. Moreover, you can add only one infobox in PP-1 Attock-I. Where is infobox about history section you mention? If we create separate page, we can add infobox with area names.

@MPGuy2824 your suggestion is very good. Hong Kong situation is perfectly like us and there is not any confusion. New Territories West (1998 constituency) is defunct. Created and Abolished year mention in infobox clear all confusion. Hong Kong Island West (2021 constituency) show only created tag, so there is no confusion that which one is old and which one is new. Ameen Akbar (talk) 13:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Infobox with areas is not a good suggestion. If new delimitations happen than we can update constituency pages according to the latest Delimitations and previous constituency name and result would remain in the constituency page. If you cant understand what I am saying that I don't have spare time to waste on a person like you. Constituency boundary and area changes but if update constituency page name it can reduce confusion among readers. If we made more and more pages having just 1 or 2 election results than it will increase confusion. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 14:24, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

• • Admins should stop Ameen Akbar to vandalize constituency pages. He is misleading and trying to disrupt update on constituency pages.(talk)

• I have an alternate proposal for naming of constituencies. We may create constituencies title along with election year. Like PP-1 Attock-I (2023) or PP-1 Attock-I (GE 2023) or PP-1 Attock-I (Elections 2023) but it's going to be quite hectic to create so much articles.

The other proposal I think which is more feasible right now is to let them the way they are. At maximum we can have separate infobox for every elections with recent most at the top. Muneebll (talk) 08:28, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

@Muneebll Title with election year will create more complications because by-elections occur in the same year. However, the Page title with delimitation year will somehow solve the problem. @Saad Ali Khan Pakistan, stop your abusive behaviour. You have to talk to everyone before the change in hundreds of pages. You can not do it according to your own wish. I and other user had worked on these pages so we have to discuss it. For updating a page, after the new delimitation, you have to redirect it with the latest title. This will more confusing. See this Sample Constituency page. In my opinion, we can mention the previous page in the history section like this sample constituency page.. There are hundreds of defunct constituency pages on Wikipedia. So, don't worry about Paksista's defunct constituency pages. We need to link these pages with the list of elections pages. Ameen Akbar (talk) 12:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

This alternative suggestion is even worse, It will cause even more confusions among he readers. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 20:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Confusion means when an ordinary person visits just for information List of members of the 15th National Assembly of Pakistan and clicks on NA-178 (Rahim Yar Khan-IV) he will redirect to NA-174 Rahim Yar Khan-VI. In description you mentioned that "178 areas are in 174". In the infobox of NA-174 Rahim Yar Khan-VI see the areas of constituency and Click Here to see actual areas of previous NA-178 (Rahim Yar Khan-IV. Both are different. In the infobox of NA-174 Rahim Yar Khan-VI, there is mention that this constituency is created from NA-195 Rahim Yar Khan-IV, this is factually wrong. This is a perfect example of TOTAL CONFUSION . In case of Constituency PP-270 (Muzaffargarh-III), you redirect it to PP-270 Kot Addu-II with description. "Areas of this constituency are now part of Kot Addu District.". This is totally wrong. If this is not misunderstanding, this is a lie. Now these are two separate districts with separate areas. I have mentioned areas above in columns. Take a look again. Other users may see who is creating confusion on Wikipedia. Ameen Akbar (talk) 17:42, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Constituencies don't remain as same as previous in new delimitations. some areas become part of neighboring constituencies. I redirected constituencies having majority of the area of predecessor delimitation constituency. I have carefully read areas comprising of constituency. PP-270 was previously part of Muzaffargarh district in 2018 now it is part of Kot addu District. You should contribute in updating result of constituencies instead of arguing and wasting time. Once all results will be updated all issues can be resolved. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Your carefulness is shown on all pages. Just see again carefully all areas of PP-270 of 2018 delimitation and PP-270 of 2022 delimitation. I am resident of Municipal Committee Muzaffargarh area. Municipal Committee Kot Addue is 55 Kilometers away. Both existed as Tehsils for a long time. No area of Municipal Committee Muzaffargarh is transferred to Municipal Committee Kot Addu. OK just tell me which area of PP-270 of 2018 transferred to PP-270 Kot Addu in 2022? Ameen Akbar (talk) 14:56, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I know about Kot Addu District. It is true PP 270 was comprised of Muzaffargarh city area in 2018. I moved PP 270 of 2022 delimitations to Kot Addu District as I followed 2022 delimitations. Election results of 2018 PP 270 Muzaffargarh city area will be mentioned in PP-272 (current constituency comprising of Muzaffargarh city area). Because of Ramzan I cannot give time to update of election results of constituency pages.

Election results of each constituency since 1970 will be updated soon. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 19:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Redirect is not correct when the name of the city in the title of the page changes. This really creates confusion among the common users. It is also true that all other users should be consulted when you want to make changes to hundreds of pages. It is powered by the collective will and contributions of Wikipedia users. An individual can do whatever he wants on his own website, but not on Wikipedia. Your style of speech is also not suitable for wikipedia, please correct it. In my view it is not correct to redirect all pages created on old delimitation circles to the new one.--Cheel (talk) 23:43, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

When new delimitations happened there was no one on talk pages of constituencies. Conditions of pages of Sindh, Balochistan and majority were not even touched since 2008, 2009 or 2011. I updated them as of 2022 delimitations and planning to update results of each constituency like PP-1 Attock-I. Condition of pages on Urdu Wikipedia is even worse. I have positive intention to update constituency pages up-to-date. Redirecting old constituency pages to updated delimitations reduces confusion and election results can be found in one page with elections/by-election years. If we keep making new and new pages than it will rise confusion among users and will be difficult to manage.

Election pages of each province and National Assembly of Pakistan should have list like Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. It will have links to their respective constituency with their election results.

You can see the history revisions of Templates of Punjab, National Assembly, Balochistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Sindh. They were outdated and were not updated. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 08:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

One more thing

Names of the Cities were not changed. New Districts were carved out from previously existing districts. Wazirabad was carved out from Gujranwala, Murree from Rawalpindi, Kot Addu form Muzaffargarh, Jampur from Rajanpur and Taunsa from Dera Ghazi Khan in Punjab in late 2022. Same happened in Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa when South Waziristan was bifurcated to Lower and Upper South Waziristan Districts in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Karezat, Usta Muhammad and Hub carved out from Pishin, Jafarabad and Lasbela respectively. You can see in this official notification showing name change of constituencies.Notification. That was the reason to change name of the constituencies and rearranging number of constituency for example PP-6 Rawalpindi-I beccame PP-6 Murree than PP-7 Rawalpindi-II will automatically turn into PP-7 Rawalpindi-I. If we keep making new and new pages than it will be difficult to manage and will cause confusion among readers. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 09:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

This notification is for the creation of new constituencies after the creation of the new district. This does not apply to the whole of Punjab or Pakistan. As per law old constituency abolish after the census. No doubt you are doing hard work but it is also controversial. Please update the result to the existing page, do not redirect the old page. Creating and managing new pages is very easy. While redirecting old pages to new ones after every delimitation will create problems. Just update the result on the existing page, and label it ABOLISH with

Category:Constituencies disestablished in 2022

. It is true that there are very few users from Pakistan who work on Wikipedia. But this does not mean that any of them impose his wish on others. I have created more than a thousand new pages about railway stations in Pakistan. I did not touch any existing pages without consulting the page creators or editors. By the way, I am also an admin on Urdu Wikipedia. You are welcome to work on Urdu Wikipedia. We are facing the same problem there, lack of users.

Ameen Akbar (talk) 11:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I am not imposing my wish to these articles. I just feel sad to see that no one works on betterment of Pakistani articles and meanwhile articles of India, USA and other countries are up-to-dated, I have made some articles on Urdu Wikipedia but no one have reviewed them on Urdu Wikipedia. Urdu articles are very out dated and lacks proper efficient administration. If I don't see any one updating pages or working on articles for a long time than who should I contact to. See talk pages of articles, no conversation has even started in most of the articles.

My intention is just for the betterment and keeping Pakistani articles up-to-dated. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Category:Constituencies disestablished in 2022 This category shows constituencies are abolished (visit their pages). I have created new constituency pages which were gained like Lahore gained 5 provincial seats, Quetta gained 3 provincial seats and so on. Some districts like Gujrat's 8 seats were reduced to 7 in 2018 and 2022 delimitations. Districts like Nankana Sahib, Jhelum, Sargodha, Okara, Mandi Bahauddin, Toba Tek Sindh, Khushab and Faisalabad were also one of the districts who lost 1 seats each in 2018 delimitations.

Peshawar and Lower Dir both gained 3 and 1 seats respectively, Abbottabad, Haripur and Swabi lost 1 seats each. In 2022 delimitations Chitral gained 1 seat reduced from Swat, Kohat gained 1 seat abolished from former FR regions constituency PK-115.

In Sindh Karachi gained 2 and Khairpur gained 1 seat whereas Nawabshah, Shikarpur and Naushehro feroz lost 1 seats each. I have created page of new/gained constituency and made lost constituency abolished after seeing their maps Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 13:10, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I have no doubt about your hard work and good intention. I really appreciate you for the creation of new constituency pages. I have objection only redirection of old pages to new ones. In my opinion, it will create difficulties in the future. I just want to keep the old page as it is with Category:Constituencies disestablished in XXXX. We can add a history section with inline links to old pages like Wikipedia:WikiProject Pakistani politics/Sample Constituency. I have created Politics of Muzaffargarh. We can create such pages about all cities with references. This is the best place to keep historical data about politics and politicians. Ameen Akbar (talk) 16:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I am currently creating table in Punjab provincial election 2018 in which winner and runner up of each constituency will be updated. Each constituency name will be linked to current constituency pages. It will lead to their specific pages. I will carefully link constituency names with their pages by comparing 2018 and 2022 maps. It will take to their correct pages by clicking on their link. I think it will be helpful for the readers. Please give me some time.

Keeping old constituency pages will be difficult to manage and not feasible. It is because Electoral history of Pakistan is not so long and in a continuity like USA(1776-present), India(1951-present) or UK(1660's-present). we only had 1970, 1977, 1985. 1988, 1990, 1993, 1997, 2002, 2008,2013 and 2018 elections. Constituencies were created for the first time in 1970, changed in 1977, again changed in 1985 and remained same until 1997. New Constituencies delimitations happened with increase of seats in 2002 and same delimitation continued since 2018. In 2018 and again 2022 delimitations happened and constituencies changed with some districts gaining and losing seats.

For example our home province Punjab had 180 seats in 1970, 240 from 1977 to 1997 and 297 from 2002 to present. Instead of managing more than 1000 pages, wouldn't it be easy for us to manage 297 pages having information related to previous gen and by elections?

If we apply same rule on constituency pages of Sindh, Balochistan, Azad Kashmir, KPK and National Assembly, than pages will be even more.

Instead of making more and more pages having 1 or 2 gen election results and showing their links like This example. I suggest we should develop constituency pages like PP-1 Attock-I. It has information of each general election since 1970 and anyone who want to see election result can easily access all information in same article rather than going to different pages. If we create more and more articles it will be difficult to find and difficult to manage. In Future if we update election results of each constituency we can create pages of provincial elections from 1970 to 1997 and link constituency names with with their respective correct pages. It will take some time but will give excellent result.

I have visited Politics of Muzaffargarh page. creating pages like that can be difficult to manage in my opinion as there are more than 100 districts across the country and some districts of Pakistan (Like Balochistan Districts) have so less population that they don't have 1 National or Provincial seat. More districts form 1 National or Provincial seat. Forexample: PB-7, NA-260. Politics of Muzaffargarh like pages can be created for big cities like Karachi and Lahore which has more seats. Karachi has 21 NA seats which are more than Balochistan's 16 and Islamabad's 3 seats combined. Karachi also has 44 Sindh assembly seats. Lahore has 14 NA and 30 Punjab assembly seats. Instead of making pages of each city or district I suggest we should develop page Elections in Punjab. It can have politics and electoral history from all over Punjab and have sub-sections having information related to each district. Saad Ali Khan Pakistan (talk) 21:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Please stop editing lists and existing pages of the constituencies until community reaches on consensus. Ameen Akbar (talk) 10:48, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

RFC

I suggest the following proposals for RFC survey:

Option A: To have titles just with the constituency number like PP-1, NA-1

Option B: To have titles with both constituency number and area name like PP-1 Attock-I, NA-1 Chitral

Option C: To have titles with constituency number, area name and election year like PP-1 Attock-I (2023), NA-1 Chitral (2023)

Option D: To have titles just with the constituency name like PP Attock-I, NA Karachi-I

Survey

• Option C - More information is better. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Option A - This way we can find all previous constituency details on one page. No confusion and no need to worry about changes in constituency name or limitations every five or ten years. Otherwise, we have to move the titles of thousands of pages after every election. God knows, who lives to do that.--Ameen Akbar (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
• Option A is the only solution, there is no other way. Tahir Mahmood (talk) 08:24, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  This is a statement of opinion without any explanation and may be disregarded by any closer. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to explain why you came to this conclusion. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 11:29, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

Pinging involved users previously @Saad Ali Khan Pakistan, امین اکبر, Obaid Raza, MPGuy2824, Robert McClenon, Cheel, and War Wounded. Muneebll (talk) 20:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Another option would be to just use the constituency names only i.e. Attock-2 or Rawalpindi-3. and have the appropriate PP-X redirect to the correct constituency name, as of now. In the future if the constituencies change numbers, the redirects would have to be corrected appropriately. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 05:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I did consider your suggestion from above discussion but there are more problems with having that. Big cities have many constituencies which can be called Rawalpindi-I,II,III, IV etc but for smaller cities sometimes there are only one constituency and even two cities having single constituency so in such cases it is only referred by numbers which are also the common names for constituencies. Secondly we then have National Assembly constituencies as well along with Provincial Assemblies constituencies like NA-52, Rawalpindi-I. We need to have additional information for both these problems in brackets which will take us much away from having precise titles. Muneebll (talk) 07:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Please start by listing the total number of seats in the National Assembly and each of the four provincial assemblies since 2002 elections. Idol Destroyer (talk) 17:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

These make around a total of a thousand articles but in my proposed Option A, we don't have to create new articles everytime and it will solve this problem once and for all on Wikipedia. Muneebll (talk) 00:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

You haven't responded to the question I raised. What were the total no. of NA seats and PA seats of each of the four provinces in each election since 2002? Idol Destroyer (talk) 18:34, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

How is this relevant? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 05:14, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The devil is in the details. Idol Destroyer (talk) 07:27, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

That does not answer my question. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 10:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

As far as the National Assembly is concerned, please consider this:

Option D - Constituency's geographical area name followed by a Roman numeral if any and the years in parentheses e.g. NA Karachi I (1985-1997) / NA Karachi I (2002-2018)

Note: the NA had 237 seats at the time of 1985, 1988, 1990, 1993 and 1997 elections. While, during the 2002, 2008, 2013 and 2018 elections, the NA had 342 seats in total. The no. of contested seats may vary.

In each election, there's a possibility that certain constituencies are rendered defunct and a few new ones emerge because of demographic changes.

Apparently as the numbering of the NA seats changes in every election and is done merely as a placeholder, it must be ditched altogether from the title (see: List of members of the 15th National Assembly of Pakistan).

Further, it is the geographical area that is the actual constituency rather than some number. Idol Destroyer (talk) 17:08, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

As much as I understood from your response, you want the constituency number to be removed altogether and have it just as the constituency's geographic name and the relevant prefix. It is somewhat similar to the option MPGuy2824 suggested above. So I think it is a plausible option to be added to RfC as the Option D. Muneebll (talk) 15:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I would rather see more information about districts and constituencies for articles about elections in the United States, where I know a few of the regions in a big country, and I think that more information would be useful both for Pakistani editors and for British or American or New Zealand editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The problem with having such titles is that we have to make around 1000 new articles for all the constituencies with every new elections. Plus what do we do of the problem we're facing with current articles as highlighted above? Muneebll (talk) 07:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

An article title should be correct and where possible unambiguous and informative to the reader. The full title is usually more informative, and for something like this, probably specifically chosen to be unambiguous in context, so in this case, what are the full, official titles of the constituencies? Do they not serve the purpose? (I assume there are no unambiguous "common names" for constituencies?) · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 04:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The current titles are full official title like PP-1 Attock-I, however they are vague for reasons cited above. With every new delimitations, they change. Common names for constituencies mostly are numbers like PP-1 and a reader looking for PP-1 Elections results in 2013 is mislead to PP-16 since in 2018 elections PP-16 (Attock) became PP-1 while PP-1(Rawalpindi) of 2013 became PP-16 in 2018 elections. Muneebll (talk) 07:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

From the content of the linked article, it seems that the PP number alone is not very useful as the sections list different numbers, presumably the one that was valid for the content of the section.
I assume the important part is the geographical area. I assume the constituency names alone can be ambiguous, as thry may also be used for other purposes, but would they be unambiguous if combined with a class identifier (disambiguator) such as Attock-2 (Pakistan constituency)? Redirects like PP-1 (2023) could take the reader to the right page directly, while a disambiguation page would be needed for just PP-1 as a year would be needed to distinguish the right region target. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you need to define the scope of the page(s). That should help with the naming problem, as each name should suggest the scope of the associated page. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I assume NA means national assembly. Does PP mean provincial parliament or something like that? Are the same constituencies used for both elections, or could they change between elections? Could PP-1 (2023) and NA-1 (2023) both exist and be different areas? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Currently the articles are focused on geographic areas of constituency and the area with whichever number it had in past is included in history section but geographic area is also subjected to changes and new areas are included while some areas are subtracted after new delimitations. Redirects alone will not be suffice as it still does not solve the problem when geographic areas within a constituency undergoes changing. Furthermore the history section of article listing a different constituency number is confusing for readers as I explained above and search engines are also misleading for that reason.

Constituency numbers/name alone as PP-1/NA-1 will not be ambiguous for the local readers in Pakistan as these are the common names. For Wikipedia we may need to disambiguate some titles if there exists a similar title already. These articles in history section will list all the results of PP-1 whichever city it was previously which will be convenient for readers and they will not be mislead by search engine too.

NA means National Assembly while PP stands for Province Punjab. Similarly we have PK, PB, PS, GBA, LA for other provinces and administrative units. PP-1 and NA-1 are areas totally distant from each other. There's no underlying problem as to the differentiation between provincial and national assembly constituencies. The main focus here is confusion surrounding constituency titles and content. Muneebll (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

So in option A, where the name would be PP-1 or something else following that pattern, the region would vary depending on the year, and the content of the article would presumably consist of sections for each election year, which would. amongst other information, specify where PP-1 was that year, which might be comprehensible to the local readers in Pakistan, but would be rather opaque to the rest of the world. Or am I missing something? Cheers · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 10:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Could you give examples of proposed full titles for typical constituencies that would result from each of the options. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 10:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

PP-1 in 2013 was in Rawalpindi while in 2018 it was in Attock. In 2023 if it is changed or remains same with minor changes than according to proposed Option A, PP-1 will be updated accordingly in the lede section along with full title while in history section we will mention where it has been previously along with full official titles.

It won't be opaque for people outside Pakistan because if anyone having interest in Pakistani elections will be needing the information same way like any Pakistani reader. Let us suppose an international reader is interested to know about Imran Khan's home constituency in Mianwali. When he first stood for elections in 1997 it was NA-53 Mianwali-I, in 2002 and 2008 it was NA 71-Mianwali-I, in 2013 and 2018 it was NA-95 Mianwali-I and recently the constituency is NA-89 Mianwali-I. He was elected as PM of Pakistan from NA-95 Mianwali-I in 2018 Elections. An international or local reader searching on Google and Wikipedia for NA-95 constituency of Imran Khan's PMship in 2018 will be mislead to NA-95 Faisalabad-I which it is currently.

How proposed titles will look like according to all the options are mentioned along with the options in survey. I have highlighted it for readers' ease. Muneebll (talk) 09:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems quite possible that the titles may in some cases need to be disambiguated if anything else gets an article with that title. What disambiguation term/s would you propose? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

How would our hypothetical reader know which constituency was Imran Khan's home turf for any specified election? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Have you defined the scope of these pages yet? If so, please mention where. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

If we needed to disambiguate a page, it could be something like NA-1 (Pakistani constituency) or just NA-1 (constituency). About second question I'm open to more inputs that what should be the scope of changes in history section of the article for a reader to get better information about the constituency article he/she is viewing. I have mentioned the need, object and goals for these changes both in RFC above and in discussion, in short it is to change the titles to common names for ease and convenience of readers as well as editors and to address the ambiguity surrounding confusing search results. By having a formal policy will end this constituencies' naming dispute once and for all. Muneebll (talk) 16:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Those disambiguators seem appropriate. The reason to define the scope is that the title must be compatible with the scope, so if you define the scope it is relatively easy to see if the proposed titles are appropriate or not. If the scope is undefined it is difficult to tell whether the title is right as different people may assume different scopes from the same title. I have no particular opinion on what should be in these articles, my interest here is purely in finding a solution to the title problem, and for that the problem should be as clearly defined as possible. I suggest you set up a personal sandbox page with dummy section headers and see if it all hangs together coherently, through the kinds of change you can expect. That should help you describe the scope. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 17:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

• Ameen Akbar, you say This way we can find all previous constituency details on one page. No confusion and no need to worry about changes in constituency name or limitations every five or ten years.. This would depend on what information is intended to be put on each page, bringing us back to the scope definition. What information do you envisage being provided on a page of this sort, and how would it be formatted to avoid changes if the constituency is revised? Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 07:28, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the above ping. I will comment another day when I have time.--Cheel (talk) 22:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I have created a Sample Constituency page, that show we can combine all new data in single page without any confusion. I had discuused about this in past which detail is HERE. Ameen Akbar (talk) 20:27, 3 November 2023 (UTC)