Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy/Archive 14

An illustrative table is construed as "overall bad editing" at Talk:Counterargument#Coatracking.

The value, utility and necessity of the table are each demonstrated by the terse diff which accompanied the blanket deletion of the illustrative counterexample table -- QED.

It appears not to be generally understood that for a given argument, there is often a large number of counterarguments, some of which are not compatible with each other. If this table is incompatible with our project goals, this thread will help clarify the point.

The table presents the views of a Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA) on China's (and Taiwan's) assertions assertions on territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands.

Rebuttal in prose

It is only since the 1970s that the Government of China and the Taiwanese Authorities began making their own assertions on territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands, which constitute Japan's inherent territory .... Until then, they had never expressed any objections, including to the fact that the Islands were included in the area over which the United States exercised the administrative rights in accordance with Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty.^[1]

Rebuttal by counterexample

There is a description of "the Senkaku Islands, Yaeyama District, Okinawa Prefecture, Empire of Japan" in the letter of appreciation dated May 1920 sent from the then consul of the Republic of China in Nagasaki concerning the distress which involved Chinese fishermen from Fujian Province around the Senkaku Islands. In addition, an article in the People's Daily dated 8 January 1953, under the title of "Battle of people in the Ryukyu Islands against the U.S. occupation", made clear that the Ryukyu Islands consist of 7 groups of islands including the Senkaku Islands. Moreover, for example "The Republic of China New Atlas" published in China in 1933 and "World Atlas" published in China in 1960 treated the Senkaku Islands as part of Japan.^[1]

Illustrative table

The table below presents counterexamples as a type of counterargument. The cells of the table are rebuttals to foreign policy position of the People's Republic of China.^[2] In the context of a disagreement about the sovereignty of a small group of islands in the East China Sea, the examples in the table are contradictions of a 2010 statement by Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu, who told reporters: :"The Diaoyu Islands [the Chinese name for these disputed islands] have always been Chinese territory since ancient times, and this is the fact that nobody can ever change. China owns indisputable sovereignty over the Diaoyu Islands. The Chinese government’s will and determination to safeguard national sovereignty and territorial integrity is firm and unshakable."^[3]

The examples in the table are insufficient to resolve the full array of underlying issues which are implicit in the spokeswoman's comments.^[4] That is conceptually different than refutation of the underlying thesis,^[5] because the scope of rebuttal is limited by the thesis or statement to which the counter-argument is a response.

More information Counterargument 1, Counterargument 2 ...

Table: Senkaku Islands and Senkaku Islands dispute Japanese counter-arguments[1]
Counterargument 1		Counterargument 2		Counterargument 3
		[[ 琉球群島散佈在我國台灣東北和日本九洲島西南之間的海面上，包括 尖 閣 諸 島 、先島諸島、大東諸島、冲繩諸島、大島諸島、土噶喇諸島，毎組都有許多大小島嶼、大隈諸島等七組島嶼， 總計共有五十個以上有名稱的島嶼和四百多個無名小島， 全部 陸地面積爲四千六百七十平方公里。 Article in People's Daily, MOFA provisional translation of 1st paragraph: "The Ryukyu Islands lie scattered on the sea between the Northeast of Taiwan of our State (note: China; same in the following text) and the Southwest of Kyushu, Japan. They consist of 7 groups of islands; the Senkaku Islands, the Sakishima Islands, the Daito Islands, the Okinawa Islands, the Oshima Islands, the Tokara Islands and the Osumi Islands.... The Ryukyu Islands stretch over 1,000 kilometers, inside of which is our East China Sea (the East Sea in Chinese) and outside of which is the high seas of the Pacific Ocean." ↓ 尖 閣 諸 島 ..... Senkaku Shotō ↑ 钓鱼台群岛 ..... simplified Chinese 釣魚台群島 ..... traditional Chinese</ref> ]]		[[

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More information Support Statement, Type ...

Support Statement	Type		Support Statement	Type		Support Statement	Type
Description of "the Senkaku Islands, Yaeyama District, Okinawa Prefecture, Empire of Japan" in the letter of appreciation dated May 1920 sent from the then consul of the Republic of China in Nagasaki concerning the distress which involved Chinese fishermen from Fujian Province around the Senkaku Islands.[6]	Letter		Partial image of newspaper article: "Struggle of the people of the Ryukyu Islands against U.S. occupation" (琉球群岛人民反对美国占领的斗争), People's Daily (人民日報), January 8, 1953.[6] *NOTE: In second character cluster of the second line of the published text, see Japanese kanji characters identifying Senkaku Islands (尖 閣 諸 島, Senkaku Shotō)[7]	Article		World Atlas published in China in 1960[6] *NOTE: At A, see Japanese kanji characters identifying the Senkaku Islands (尖 閣 諸 島, Senkaku Shotō); and at B, see maritime boundary between Taiwan and Japan	Map

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More information Response 1, Response 2 ...

Response 1		Response 2		Response 3
Rebuttal and refutation of Chinese irredentist statement, see MOFA at Q&A, Senkaku Islands, Q4/A4.3[6]		Rebuttal and refutation, see MOFA at Q&A, Senkaku Islands, Q4/A4.3[6]		Rebuttal and refutation, see MOFA at Q&A, Senkaku Islands, Q4/A4.3[6]

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This small article has enhanced significance in the argumentative dialogue which is essential to the continued success of our collaborative editing project.

The term "counterargument" is highlighted at WP:Dispute resolution in the pyramid-shaped graphic of a "hierarchy of disagreement" based on the essay "How to Disagree" by Paul Graham.

If my writing is unclear or inadequately presented, please ask questions.

What I'm looking for is (a) agreement with explanations why this is an excellent table in the context of Counterargument; or (b) disagreement with explanations which help me to understand what I do not. --Tenmei (talk) 18:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with 'the other guy' here. This seems mostly unrelated to the subject at hand. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:59, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Can you resolve the Wikipedia article creep paradox in WP:Article creep? Can you even well define it? Is that list one example, or the number of examples in the list, or the number of examples in the list plus one? A start to a resolution was made by distinguishing examples from meta-examples, a la the Frege church ontology. Does the notion of meta-examples there introduce an intentional context? PPdd (talk) 02:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the connection between the creep paradox and the Frege-Church thing (but I don't know Frege-Church, only the WP article). Isn't the creep paradox just one of those infinite list problems. For example, if we are going to say anything with certainty about the class of real numbers, we must know all the numbers that belong to that class, if we know all the numbers that belong to that class we should be able to list all the numbers that belong to that class, but the numbers that belong to that class are infinite, therefore, we can not list them, therefore, we can not be certain about anything that is said about the class of real numbers. I think Zeno's “Achilles and the tortoise” is the same sort of thing.--Logicalgregory (talk) 04:52, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the creep paradox is well stated at Wikipedia article creep paradox. Let me try: As everything in the universe is connected to everything else, all articles in the wikipedia will become infinitely long (whatever, the subject of a Wikipedia article and whatever is said in a Wikipedia article, there will always be something else of relevance that can be added). This is called “article creep”. In order to stop article creep we shall have a policy against article creep. In order to implement the policy we will draw up a list of all types of article creep. The list of the types of article creep will be infinite.--Logicalgregory (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Partial response - You bring up an interesting matter, "Are all paradoxes equivalent to 'The Clown's First Tautology'?" (The Clown created God, and gave birth to herself when she shat her own self out on the seventh day following six days of menstrual constipation, in order to shut up the little girl infinite regressionist's potential question, before she could ask , "but mommy, if the Clown created God, then who created the Clown?" This also explains the numerologically significant lucky number "7" for the number of days in a week, and why both the menstrual and lunar cycles are nice multiples of it (28). As to the rest of your observation, note that "the only really interesting philosophical topics can be reduced to jokes", the First Law of Philosophical Significance. I'm still pondering for a total response... :) PPdd (talk) 20:07, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

A significant number of countries in the world are spanish speaking. Yet citation of journals from these countries is rare. Información Filosófica is a journal that has been around for 65 years, but is now up for AfD. Does anyone have an explanation for the paucity of citations of Spanish language journals by English language ones? PPdd (talk) 19:59, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm a newbie. I hope you'll forgive me if I started off on the wrong foot.

I was motivated to sign in and change the above article because, frankly, it is embarrassingly bad.

I agree 100% with all the criticisms in the top box at the Article

The section on Philosophical problems with scientific objectivity is irrelevant to the subject. It discusses a book on the history of science and Popper's hypothesis-falsification philosophy. Its inclusion is clearly designed to advance a political theory rather than to enlighten the reader.

The section The role of the scientific community does not properly place objectivity in the context of the various scientific methods.

The section Deliberate misrepresentation is on the entirely different subject of fraud. Again, its inclusion is clearly designed to advance a political agenda.

The section Objectivity in experimental set-up and interpretation appears to introduce a theory of psychology in objectivity - but offers no supporting evidence and does not say why it is relevant to the main subject. Again, its inclusion is clearly designed to advance a political viewpoint of science.

The section Objectivity in measurement is a statement of the obvious. While I appreciate that this does not necessarily make the section redundant, it could be far simpler and clearer.

But the worst part is the beginning. The article dives straight into a confusing discussion on measurement which contains most of the original research and unverified claims referred to in the top box.

I suggest that this article needs to be re-written, beginning with a simple definition of objectivity.

I further suggest that we should support the merging of this article with Objectivity-Philosophy. That way this article could be re-written in a short paragraph or two.

I would be happy to do this work, but I think (given the nature of the Article at present) I will need some backup to ensure that my edit stays up.

What can I do to get support for and edit? --Stephenrwheeler (talk) 02:03, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the article is not very good, but what improvements do you exactly have in mind?

As to the proposed merger of Objectivity (science) into Objectivity (philosophy), you should consider that philosophy and science do conceive sufficiently different of the notion "Objectivity" to justify different articles.

Kuhn's book is not just a historical 'story' of science, but a perspective from the Philosophy of science on what some might call the 'historical logic' of science, which is a rather relevant topic if you think about (philosophical) theories of the progress of thought or knowledge. Popper's book is a reaction to the concept of verification as in logical positivism, and constitutes a rather important idea on how science operates.

Measurement in general, more concrete e.g. the representational theories of measurement, plays a rather strong role not just in the applied sciences, but in theory of science and particular scientific theories. Even for most scientists there is not much 'obvious' about it.

So-called biases that have been investigated in psychology do actually play an important role in science practice, as they do in methodology etc. etc.

You have given no hint as to which political agenda you do see followed (and in which way) in this article. However, some of the inclusions you reduce to alleged agendas are of central importance to the concept of objectivity in science.

I don't quite understand whether you have in mind a reduction of 'scientific objectivity' to 'philosophical' (whatever they are) ideas. I think that if you want to remove content, you should actually state the reason why to do so (indeed, e.g. the section on fraud might not be substantial for the concept, but it might encyclopaedically be important for the lemma e.g. as a differentiating factor ("not everyone can just claim and pretend")). If you would like to try and expand or clarify on the ideas in the article, I'd say you're welcome. Morton Shumway—talk 02:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC).

Recent changes were made to citations templates (such as {{citation}}, {{cite journal}}, {{cite web}}...). In addition to what was previously supported (bibcode, doi, jstor, isbn, ...), templates now support arXiv, ASIN, JFM, LCCN, MR, OL, OSTI, RFC, SSRN and Zbl. Before, you needed to place |id={{arxiv|0123.4567}} (or worse |url=http://arxiv.org/abs/0123.4567), now you can simply use |arxiv=0123.4567, likewise for |id={{JSTOR|0123456789}} and |url=http://www.jstor.org/stable/0123456789 → |jstor=0123456789.

The full list of supported identifiers is given here (with dummy values):

• {{cite journal |author=John Smith |year=2000 |title=How to Put Things into Other Things |journal=Journal of Foobar |volume=1 |issue=2 |pages=3–4 |arxiv=0123456789 |asin=0123456789 |bibcode=0123456789 |doi=0123456789 |jfm=0123456789 |jstor=0123456789 |lccn=0123456789 |isbn=0123456789 |issn=0123456789 |mr=0123456789 |oclc=0123456789 |ol=0123456789 |osti=0123456789 |rfc=0123456789 |pmc=0123456789 |pmid=0123456789 |ssrn=0123456789 |zbl=0123456789 |id={{para|id|____}} }}

Obviously not all citations needs all parameters, but this streamlines the most popular ones and gives both better metadata and better appearances when printed. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 02:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I started a discussion about the above mentioned subject. But please respond here.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I've finished major work on this article. Before a WP:GA nomination, I'd like to invite interested projects to do a B-class review. Please post any reviews on the article's talk page. I'd appreciate any assistance with prose copy-editing (I am not a native speaker of English). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:21, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I have suggested that the new paragraph Argument#"World-disclosing" arguments does not enhance the article amd should be deleted - see talk page Talk:Argument#World-disclosing arguments : proposed deletion of paragraph . Opinions of other editors invited at Talk:Argument#World-disclosing arguments : proposed deletion of paragraph — Philogos (talk) 02:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

delete The editor began by insisting the lead of appeal to nature must adopt that self-contradicting ambiguity. When I recommended the editor would benefit from reading the validity section in argument, they promptly inserted their POV in that article. I haven't verified, so I'll WP:AGF and assume the philosophers were in a whimsical mood, but as a WP:FRINGE challenge to well defined terms, it's WP:UNDUE weight, and perhaps a few words in the reason article would be more than sufficient? Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 08:15, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

keep "The editor began by insisting the lead of appeal to nature must adopt that self-contradicting ambiguity."

I did no such thing. I consistently re-worked the wording, removing a word that was objected to ("content") because it was seen as somewhat misleading, then I re-worked it again, and provided a reference.

As for the article actually under discussion here, I have provided further explanations and references. See the talk page Talk:Argument#World-disclosing arguments : proposed deletion of paragraph.

It's a fringe challenge to which well-defined terms? Walkinxyz (talk) 08:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The arbitration on the Monty Hall problem is of interest to philosophers specialized in decision theory, philosophy of probability, philosophy of action, philosophy of science, etc.

The proposed decision contains wording about "complex Bayesian solution" of special concern.

Also, it may be useful to be aware of the language regarding original research versus exposition using secondary sources, which is also discussed on the WikiProject Mathematics's talk page. Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 12:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm forever grateful to WP mathematicians for their uncanny ability to write math articles I can read. However they do it, it's fine by me.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 19:30, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Would a WikiProject Philosophy editor review Aha! Effect for accuracy and whether it is correctly named? See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Psyc3330 subpages for related history. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Please also review Executive dysfunction (also from the same MfD). Thanks, Cunard (talk) 09:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Did you intend to ask this at WikiProject Psychology instead? None of these really have much to do with philosophy. Speaking as a neuroscientist, though, I can tell you that I believe both names are okay, although as an American I personally would have used executive disfunction. Looie496 (talk) 16:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction and input. I've posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Psychology#Aha! Effect and Executive dysfunction about these two articles. Cunard (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I have started an important RFC here regarding how to integrate the criticism of Evolutionary psychology into the article about that topic, and about how to define the topic itself either narrowly or broadly. Please participate.·Maunus·ƛ· 02:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

An editor has asked for a community reassessment of this article to see if it still meets the good article criteria. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Al-Kindi/1. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The usage of Instant is under discussion, see Talk:Instant. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 06:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Yep, that is a long headline. Anyway, the idea is that, starting around the first of April, there might be some sort of broadbased discussion of the religion related content here. A basic page for some ideas of such a meeting can be found at User:John Carter/Religion meeting, although I do intend to create a wikipedia space page for the meeting, or maybe move the existing page. Anyway, it is my hope that there would be one month of general discussion of the topic, and then later a second month for specific ideas and or actions which might or might not be taken up for, perhaps, the next year, with maybe another meeting following a year later.

Anyway, having gotten all the exposition out of the way, I was wondering whether the members of this project believe it might make sense to expand the scope of the meeting to include philosophy as well. Ethics and religious philosophy are both I think "overlap" territories of the two projects, and I don't think it would necessarily hurt to have parties involved in both subjects involved. Thoughts? John Carter (talk) 14:47, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

This is interesting to me as I will be auditing a PhD seminar on secularism and modernity in the next few months. I think it is a very good idea to include those interested in philosophy in a discussion on religion, since they have been entwined for much of their respective histories. And the centrality of ethics in many religions is indisputable, as you correctly point out. The philosophy of religion is something I have less experience and interest in, but I'm sure there are others who do share that interest. If they have something to offer, great. Thanks for proposing it here.

Political philosophy is another area that is interesting right now with regards to religion, since the political claims of religion have made a resurgence in the last decade, and it is a question how political philosophy should respond to this (apparently) obtrusive and unexpected development.

Walkinxyz (talk) 21:14, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The usage of free electionfree election is under discussion, see Talk:Free election (Polish throne). 65.93.12.101 (talk) 04:00, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The Barnstar of Notability in Philosophy

The Barnstar of Notability, For seminal ideas in philosophy, like creating the concept of "notability" in Wikipedia article space. "There is something new under the sun" is true if there is something new under the sun. PPdd (talk) 09:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

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Above is the SINGLE Barnstar I gave to Logicalgregory, for being the first to conceive of the concept of Notability at WP, on this very talk page. If you are the typical philosopher who wears a red contact lens on your left eye and a green lens on your right eye to work, and if you also have vertically oriented eyes (like a spider), or equivalently, if you rotate your head 90 degrees, you will see the section headers - "The Barnstar of Notability in Philosophy" above as a single image in 3-D. This works because the infinitesimal perspective point at which Descartre located your humuncular soul in your pineal gland is actually a vertical “bi-point”, and is related to the “Land Effect”, and. Robert M. Yost of UCLA. Yost showed the class the Land Effect in his undergraduate Metaphysics, Epistemology, Philosophy of Mind class. He then went on to tell the class about how, in the 1960’s, he was legally given increasingly large megadoses of LSD in a government funded experiment at UCLA, but he noticed no effect at all, no matter how much they gave him. Yost went on to explain how Land invented the Polaroid camera, then went to work for the CIA, which funded the UCLA LSD experiment on him. And if you were stimulated by this to wonder "What is it like to be a bat?", ask Logician Lewis Caroll's Cheshire Cat - "Alice:'I see nothing', Cat:"'My, you have good eyes'". Here, here, does anyone here hear WP:Silence? PPdd (talk) 10:35, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

"What is it like to be a bat" I read that shortly after it was published in 1974. Takes me back to the time when philosophers wrote interesting and amusing papers - not like the boring, by the numbers, and uninformative papers one gets in the journals today. --Logicalgregory (talk) 03:52, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The Nagel pic is a subtle joke. He isn't talking about how me (a bat) can undertand what it is like to be you (whatever), but its an ethics lecture. PPdd (talk) 05:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Logicalgregories frank admission of his age above, stimulated me to ask who remembers their first philosophy book.
Since this is a talk page of a WikiProject, not a chat room, if you list your first memory, you then should apply it to how others might improve Wikipedia.
My first one was Hans Riechenbach's The Rise of Scientific Philosophy, when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I don't remember anything in it, except that it made me want more, and that he starts off with an extensive quote of Hegel(?), after which he points out that if the reader is mystified, but after reading it over and over, can speak the laguage, even though he or she doesn't really understand what they are saying, it's because it is utter nonsense. I therefore propose merging all Hegel related articles to be subsections of the nonsense article. (Incidentally, I just missspelled Hans Reichenbach, but my misspelling produces 1,850 results on Google, so I am not alone. (It only produced one result on Google Scholar.) PPdd (talk) 05:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

(Misquoting T.S. Elliot) Leave your empty forms in ivory towers and participate in Reality! The article sucks (like vacuum of a box filled to the brim with nothing). But this WikiProject rates it as "High importance", and the Version 1.0 Editorial Team rates it as a "vital article". Check it out. The nothing article is also lacking, so check it out, too (checking an empty box does not always mean its then full). PPdd (talk) 16:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I've listed this article here because I am hoping to get this up to the status of a Good Article but I need major helping doing so. The article is in really bad shape and needs some major work on it. I wish I can get some editors to work on it and maybe help me because I honestly dont think I can get to GA standards on my own. We can have a standard article for other wikipedia projects to translate from seeing how all of them are not up the standards that we have.

Thanks, The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 04:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

• What is the word for a sentence that is true because it is stated? For example, my business card says "World's Greatest Braggart". "I am speaking to you." Curry's paradox, "If this sentence is true, than A."

• Is there an article about this? PPdd (talk) 03:16, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Self-evident? Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 19:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds similar to a performative verb. Have you tried the reference desk? - 2/0 (cont.) 04:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

You are either looking for the term "autological" which describes a word that describes itself (i.e. the word "short" is a short word and therefore autological, whereas the word "long" does not describe itself, and is therefore not autological, but rather heterological.) or you are looking for the term "self-fulfilling" statement (e.g. "This is a formal written notice."). Greg Bard (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Given the closely linked subjects of the various religion, mythology, and philosophy groups, it seems to me that we might benefit from having some sort of regular topical discussion forum to discuss the relevant content. I have put together the beginnings of an outline for such discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/2011 meeting, and would very much appreciate the input of any interested editors. I am thinking that it might run over two months, the first of which would be to bring forward and discuss the current state of the content, and the second for perhaps some more focused discussion on what, if any, specific efforts might be taken in the near future. Any and all input is more than welcome. John Carter (talk) 15:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

One of the proposals made on the above linked to page is a proposal for, maybe, a joint mythology-philosophy-religion newsletter, maybe similar to the monthly newsletter of the MILHIST project. I do think that, maybe, sending such "news updates" to members of the various projects might help stimulate some more activity, and, maybe, help bring more attention to highlighted articles and topics if they are mentioned there. Also, as indicated there, I have made a specific section for content which we think might stand for new material in either journals or articles, like underdeveloped topics or topics which have recently been controversial. If there were to be a newsletter, maybe, just maybe, we might be able to perhaps get an A-Class review going, and maybe a few other things. Anyway, despite the name of the page (I had to choose one, and I tend to be more active in religion) any input of any kind, on the topics above or any others, is more than welcome. John Carter (talk) 18:25, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

What is the "MILHIST" project? Is there a link to it?--Logicalgregory (talk) 02:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I was referring to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News, which is the regular newsletter of the Military History project. It is probably the best organized of all the WikiProjects, and wikipedia has been called the best military history site on the web because of their work, so I'm thinking they're a reasonable model to follow. The Philosophy project could potentially do a similar newsletter on its own, as could religion and mythology for that matter, but personally, given the significant overlap between the three, I thought that maybe having some sort of joint newsletter might be both less work and, potentially, help bring more attention to some of the topics which don't get as much attention. John Carter (talk) 18:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

P.S. One of the things being proposed in the meeting is that we might in time write some letters to some relevant journals asking for additional information on topics which we can't find sufficient information or sufficient current information on. If there are any such topics relating to philosophy any of you know, please feel free to list them, and then, maybe next month, we can figure out which journals to send the requests to. John Carter (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I was interested in your mention of "new material in either journals or articles" and "get an A-Class review going". Could you elaborate? If you are interested in setting something up to go beyond the no original research limitations of Wikipedia, then perhaps we can talk further. There are other places in the Wiki-foundation where original research can be conducted and published.--Logicalgregory (talk) 07:32, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

One of the sections of the meeting page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/2011 meeting#Topics poorly covered in reliable sources is specifically to indicate specific subjects which we cannot find much information or much current information on. The meeting, intended to be for two months, was initially to spend one month gathering data and another acting on it. Regarding this particular subject, come next month, when all the subjects are added, I and maybe some others are going to try to determine which are the journals which are most highly regarded and most directly applicable to the subjects, and write them a letter or e-mail which we hope gets published indicating that we as editors of wikipedia would be very appreciative if material relevant to the subjects would be published, so we could include it in our articles. The A-Class review proposal could be seen as another attempt to copy the Military history project, which does have a specific project-based A-Class review, independent of GA and FA, to determine which articles receive that article assessment rating. I haven't been at all active in the Military history A-Class reviewing process myself, but at least some years ago I was one of the more active editors in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography A-Class assessment process, and think that it might be beneficial if we had maybe some sort of similar process here. My hope would be that these "reviews" might be made by some people who have some familiarity with the subject, which isn't necessarily the case for GA and FA candidates, and that the review might help high quality articles get a bit more attention and input in their final stages of development. John Carter (talk) 20:05, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Philogo has been arguing with me and Linsabreeny over on the argument talk page. There are a couple of issues of substance here.

First, he insists that an "argument" in logic and logic alone be the topic of the "argument" page, and even though he admits that logic is also a branch of philosophy, he says he has never heard of a philosophical argument. I believe that arguments in the sense that the article is discussing them can be both logical (that is, employed in everyday discourse, scientific discourse, philosophical discourse, etc. but with specific logical features), and "philosophical" (in the sense of structured, rational argument on important general themes) and that it does us no good here to take sides and say certain arguments are either "logical" or "philosophical."

I have included wording to that effect in the topic sentence of the article and the lead, so as to avoid forking articles for "logical arguments" and "philosophical arguments." Since argument, rational argument, is the medium of philosophical exchange, and since logic is also (but not only) a branch of philosophy, I think this change helps.

(Currently, there is a redirect from rational argument to argument, and there is an important article on "argumentation theory" that is not about logical or philosophical arguments per se, but rather "the interdisciplinary study of how humans should, can, and do reach conclusions through logical reasoning.")

However, Philogo demands that any discussion of argument on that page be confined to formal logic, and therefore any discussion about what the point of an argument is, or its source of validity (e.g. logical truth vs. justification vs. some pragmatic test), or its approach or philosophical method of reasoning, is out of place.

Second, Philogo seems to believe that if an argument can be classified as "deductive" or "inductive" (or presumably some of the other argument types on that page) there can be no more relevant logical features to be explained about it.

Charles Taylor, in his Philosophical Arguments, disagrees – including with regard to transcendental arguments (which are misleadingly named, and not really "transcendental" in any sense). So does philosopher of science Ian Hacking, as well as Thomas Kuhn, John Dewey, George Herbert Mead, Edmund Husserl, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Martin Heidegger and many, many others who have influenced or been at the centre of 20th century philosophy.

One of the leading critical theorists today, Nikolas Kompridis has published a book that discusses some of these logical features in depth. It also discusses a wide range of modern philosophical arguments and forms of argument, all the way back to Kant and Hegel. The book is called Critique and Disclosure – as in Kant's seminal Critiques and Heidegger's concept of "world disclosure", an idea which Heidegger considered his own most important contribution to modern Western philosophy.

Using terminology from Heidegger, and other sources that share the same terminology (including dozens of other primary and secondary sources), Kompridis has called a family of these arguments "world-disclosing" (in the ontological sense of "world" – i.e. bearing on conditions of intelligibility). The notability of this subject is indicated in a review of the book published here.

I created a section on "world-disclosing" arguments, that Philogo has been deleting in spite of two editors including myself currently being against such deletion, and in spite of it being extensively sourced and constantly developed.

Philogo believes that a majority view from February (consisting of himself and Machine Elf) supports his deletion of this section, while Linsabreeny and I strongly disagree.

The section has changed considerably since then, including in response to Philogo's own criticism.

Philogo has, in my opinion, been exhibiting behaviour that very strongly suggests a sense of ownership over the page. In my opinion, his criticisms have greatly improved the content I have been adding, but he has refused to comment on the changes, and instead has engaged in a slow edit war by continually deleting it.

If someone could please help out with this, especially on the issues of substance (1. the topic of the "argument" page, i.e. logic vs. philosophy; and 2. the inclusion of a section on "world-disclosing" arguments), it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Walkinxyz (talk) 10:41, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It's about your section on world-disclosing argument which doesn't need it's own world disclosure article if you insist on including it in the argument article. I agree with Philogo that you should put it in your world-disclosing argument article—just summarize it briefly and link—apparently you and your associate would rather edit war over it. I've had enough abuse from you that I'd be happy to stay out of it if you could stop dragging my name into it, thx—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 14:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I suggested the deletion of this paragraph both here and on the argumenttalk page, and proceeded as agreed - i.e. to delete it. I suggested it be inserted into the article world disclosure in which it may be more relevant. Walkinxyz has declared his intent to "edit war it" but has not siad what he means by that. — Philogos (talk) 03:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you're following what is happening. I have not said anything about an intent to "edit war it." Although Linsabreeny did. Indicating that you don't have "agreement." STOP warring over this. Walkinxyz (talk) 00:03, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

It was indeed Linsabreeny not Walkinxyz who wrote "This seems crazy to me and i will edit war and dispute it.": my apologies. I would be grateful if you would not ascribe views to me: the views are expressed here and the article's talk page. Original discussion on this talk page restored below. — Philogos (talk) 04:24, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

You mean like the view that you've never heard of a philosophical argument?

From the talk page: "Opposed: I know of no use of the term "argument" in philosophy distinct from its use in logic." Your knowledge or lack thereof is not relevant. The sources that I provide – which are not books on "logic" – ARE.

There should be no problem including a topic definition as including "logic and philosophy" even if what you say is true. You are exhibiting an attitude of Ownership and destructive behaviour that is strong evidence of bad faith. User:Walkinxyz (not logged in).

Long story short: Philogo's actions and arguments were not reasonable here, eg. after a pause, he quietly wiped all Walkinxyz's cited and discussed work -in an edit marked minor. I personally think an editor caught doing that should apologise and shuffle off discretely rather than come back with more non-philosophy.

Also, bear in mind that MachineElf followed Walkinxyz here from [a previous article|Appeal to nature]] where he did little else but test Walkinxyz's and my own patience also. So then he thought it entirely appropriate he should get involved with this dispute too.

I'm pretty much out after my previous experience (with m.e.) , except for warring when necessary (no wasted discussion and certainly bloodless), and contributing links and diffs to a proper review of this situation in the wikiproject - if it might ever muster one. If you are an intelligent wikipedian or an admin?, all this is more your concern than mine.

Whatever Walkinxyz managed to make out of the hassle (much of his new content is currently precariously threatened by article subject having been restricted to "logic") - his neighbours have not been helping him at all.

Lisnabreeny (talk) 23:40, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

How sad, still randomly telling pathetic lies about me for no reason? Seems the matter's been settled over at argument for some time now... If you weren't so uninterested in contributing to the encyclopedia, I've no doubt you'd have gotten yourself blocked by now with your admittedly mercenary tactics.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 23:33, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Not settled. Silenced and stubbornly blocked. "Compromise" on argument was forced, not reached through genuine discussion. MachineElf and Philogo are most astonishingly not receptive to the reasons of other editors, or to significant major themes in modern philosophy. Indeed, it is surprising that they don't consider such destructive attitudes a waste of their own time. It is certainly a waste of ours, and a scandal for the WikiPhilosophy project as a whole. Walkinxyz (talk) 01:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

At my Talk (Lisnabreeny), The editor MachineElf, who accuses me of "randomly telling pathetic lies" -writes: " Please do not attack other editors, as you did on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Another unprovoked personal attack.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 23:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)" , -Best Regards: Lisnabreeny (talk) 20:53, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I consider the recent rewrite of my recent rewrite rather unfortunate. Those interested in the field, please see my remarks: Talk:Philosophy of perception#Lede rewrite (April 2011). Morton Shumway—talk 13:59, 13 April 2011 (UTC).

It has been proposed that Argument form be merged into Logical Form. Unfortunately neither article does the subject justice— Philogos (talk) 00:42, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Correction The article to be merged into is Logical form. The one with the capital F refers to a linguistics-specific term. Morton Shumway—talk 01:42, 19 April 2011 (UTC).

You are correct. It's a little confusing, is it not, to have two articles to have such very similar names, Logical Form and Logical form. Perhaps one or other shuld be renamed as Logical Form (linguistics), Logical form (logic).— Philogos (talk) 00:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

What about the proposed merger?— Philogos (talk) 00:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The merger would be fine, and I will comment there. However, please see WP:MERGE for technical information on doing a merger discussion. E.g. you should include rationale with the proposal on the talk page. Also, you should sign the proposal. Etc. — With respect to the similar article names, you can take a look at the help pages on article names. As far as I remember there has been previous consensus on the one with a capital F. Morton Shumway—talk 01:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC).

If you look you will see the merge was propsed by another editor.— Philogos (talk) 02:51, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

True, sorry for that. The merger was proposed in 2009 by GregBard, and his rationale may just remain obscure. Please see the merger discussion. Morton Shumway—talk 10:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC).

the merge was executed— Philogos (talk) 02:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

A debate about Ralph Waldo Emerson's title has been simmering for a few days (see here). Additional comments are very much appreciated. Thanks. - Artoasis (talk) 03:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Could somebody with better mental faculties than me help me out regarding criticisms of AT. The theory is under represented by those to whom it applies and, in my estimation, the (writers) criticisms are detracting from it's purpose and the esoteric knowledge it represents. --Filmmaker2011 (talk) 09:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I've moved this to Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Name_of_the_philosopher. Please look for it there. Skomorokh 10:30, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Here, here, and here.

"Church is the reincarnation of Frege". Does anyone know who first said that? Was it Carnap, Straus, Einstein, Godel, or Riechenbach? PPdd (talk) 14:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Much ado about [[nothing on the talk pages there now; Discussion of visual representaions of nothingness; The elements of the empty set and the elements of a mathematics made from nothing; WikiProject Death member comments on theology

at Nothingness article now.

PPdd (talk) 04:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

A banned sockpuppeteer has been editing articles on Terence_McKenna, Omega point and Teilhard de Chardin since before Christmas. I haven't reverted any of it as for all I know their edits here might be okay but in Physics they are just weird and wrong. They are:

497glbig, 9p4gh9gkj, Antichristos, Creator666, Jsdhgsdjhg, Sage321, Systemizer, Weltherr, Wyhiugl

And they've used at least the following ips based in St Petersburg:

89.110.0.4, 89.110.0.62, 89.110.14.210, 89.110.14.26, 89.110.16.14, 89.110.16.241, 89.110.19.187, 89.110.20.164, 89.110.4.94, 89.110.6.2 , 89.110.9.221, 9.110.4.94, 91.122.1.73, 91.122.4.34, 91.122.6.123, 91.122.6.46, 91.122.6.62, 91.122.80.83, 91.122.87.244, 91.122.93.63, 92.100.179.13, 92.100.183.77, 95.55.115.125

Cheers Dmcq (talk) 15:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

At a first glance it looks like the hundreds (!) of additions to Omega Point are primarily/entirely nonsense. I haven't looked at the others yet. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected Omega Point and Terence McKenna. Let me know if any evident socks manage to edit. Dougweller (talk) 16:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The editor Lorem has deleted a large part of the article Metaphysics without first seeking the views of other editors. See the talk page. Vandalism? — Philogos (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC) — Philogos (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I have sought editors' views at talk:metaphysics#Recent deletion as to whether the deletion should be reverted. It would be appreciated if you would epres your view there— Philogos (talk) 01:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The deletion was reverted. The article however lack citations— Philogos (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Virtually no discussion of the book at all, just a CliffsNotes sort of article. Dougweller (talk) 16:06, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, nothing about its importance. I think it is true to say that modern science (and thereby industrial civilization) is based on ideas first put forward in this book. Quite possibly the most important book of all time. If anybody wants a copy, there was one for sale on ebay recently; only 60,000 Pounds Sterling.--Logicalgregory (talk) 06:41, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out Doug!--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I've posted a question on how to organize Category:Literary critics over at Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Literature#Question re: Category:Literary critics. Please chime in. Thanks! Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)