Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skepticism/Archive 9

As if you didn't have enough to do just thought I'd add a reminder of several articles in serious need of attention. Last year I posted the below on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion/New religious movements work group but no one has followed up. As you have done fine work on Theosophy - and some of the articles I draw attention to relate to the history of theosophy etc - I thought it might be helpful to repost here.'

Please take a look at Subud, George Gurdjieff, Findhorn Foundation etc

You have been doing great work. However I tripped over the article on Subud a few weeks ago and discovered it was written entirely from within this relatively obscure little movement (ie taking the movements jargon etc as commonly shared) and not even mentioning any of the criticism or controversy which has followed it round the world for decades. For example the suicide of the founder's son - which features in academic literature as well as an otherwise hagiographic biography - finds no place.

Subud is categorised as a NRM but doesn't appear to have benefited from your NPOV work. I added a small academic reference to it being called a cult (by the French government among others) but this was deleted on spurious grounds. Just put some in again but have little confidence this will survive.

Looking at Subud led me to George Gurdjieff, an article which is just as biased. Most scholars would these days characterise GG as something of a joke - but there is again no NPOV in this article, no criticism, and merely a (to an outsider) baffling, lengthy and jargon-heavy exposition. The bibliography doesn't include a major accessible scholarly work on him and his kind (Madame Blavatskys Baboon), no doubt because it is not to the taste of GGs few remaining followers.

Going further I found plenty of other articles which relate to these two subjects - and whose articles are linked in one way or another - but which are similarly flawed. I hope someone can take a look at the whole group.

Finally, some time ago a 'controversy' section was deleted from the article on the Findhorn Foundation (something of a clearing house for esoterica in the UK) and so I have copied that material here, having given up on my attempts to try and keep some balance on that page. Hope someone can help:-

==Controversy==

There have been many critics of and controversies surrounding the work of the Findhorn Foundation since 1962.^[4] For example:

• A. Roberts, writing in the Fortean Times, alleges that in the 1960s, Caddy and other 'channelers' believed that they were in contact with extraterrestrials through telepathy, and prepared a 'landing strip' for flying saucers at nearby Cluny Hill.^[2]

• In 1993 the Scottish Charities Office commissioned a report into holotropic breathwork, having received complaints about it at the Findhorn Foundation. The report caused the Findhorn Foundation to suspend its breathwork programme. According to The Scotsman, Dr Linda Watt of Leverndale Psychiatric Hospital in Glasgow said that the hyperventilation technique might cause seizures or lead to psychosis in vulnerable people. (The Scotsman, 14 October 1993).

• In 1999 one of the foundation's long-term members, Verity Linn, died of exposure on a Scottish mountain while following the teachings of the self-styled Australian guru Jasmuheen (not connected with the Findhorn Foundation^{[citation needed]}), who teaches that human beings can "live on light" alone.^[5]

Testbed (talk) 21:02, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

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Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 18:01, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

We are discussing what to rename this article and I hope for input on what words to use/not use in titles and subtitles of such articles. Please come and give your opinions. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:13, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia, A New Perspective on an Old Problem

Apparently, WE are the ones who have turned Wikipedia into an "ideological 'battleground'" Greg Bard (talk) 20:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Be ever vigilant...Dkriegls (talk to me!) 06:31, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

In related news, the article Deepak Chopra is currently undergoing some changes, while User:SAS81 ("I am an employee of Dr. Deepak Chopra and represent his direct interests on Wikipedia") is contributing to Talk:Deepak Chopra. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 15:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Nice to meet all of you. Specifically, I am an employee of ISHAR, Integrative Studies Historical Archive and Repository. It's newly formed and Dr. Chopra, through the Chopra Foundation, gave us a grant but he will not be our only funding source. Our responsibility is representing all knowledge on our archive, including subjects such as Dr Chopra - without bias to media and online encyclopedias such as Wikipedia. Not a PR company. Not a marketing company. Not a promotional company. We are a non profit educational organization. We are required to work directly within Wikipedia's policy. SAS81 (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm curious, how do you propose that you can represent this materiel without bias when Deepak himself argues that objective reality is nothing more than shared subjective experiences shaped by personal experience (i.e., reality is biased). Honestly, I'm not being factitious, this is an honest question. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 21:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

• A shell game does not a reliable source make. Nor boilerplate eliminate motivation. However if the material in the "archive" represents reliable sources ISHAR can be a welcome resource for providing access to referencing sources found reliable. A linear string of electrons leading to a repository of representations of physical atoms presenting a notion of notions of disassociated association. - - MrBill3 (talk) 02:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm thrilled we can have this sort of discussion, thank you. Dkriegls I was not sure when you said 'answer here' if 'here' was my talk page where you posted or 'here' where the original question was posted. So I am going to repost my answer....in both 'heres' :)

This is an absolutely fair question and I really appreciate you approaching me like this. I'm so thrilled with this question I've supplied a wall of text, sheesh! I also don't mind coming over to your noticeboard. As to what it means to be 'without bias' - I'm not sure that is possible for anyone to be without bias. However I do believe that where circumstances require, we can at least attempt to view issues without our personal bias and report on them the best we can and this is very possible and something journalists or researchers have to do quite often. It's just a matter of framing things so our own personal bias is removed from our language (and the encyclopedia's). For example, what you wrote above is actually does a pretty good job. You may not agree with Dr Chopra's assessment of consciousness - and you may agree with for example Dan Dennet's framework for consciousness so if you're writing an encyclopedia or building an archive, you would just report that x said this, y said that and you would attribute their voices, not the voice of the encyclopedia to their statements. Without bias therefore means INCLUDING all facts and attributing all points of view directly to their sources without being represented as a source for those views or facts. We also have to be careful not to mislead a reader by interpreting the work of an author through the lens of our own bias. This can be challenging. Imagine if you had to frame the point of view of say someone you don't like (if your a dem and you had to frame the viewpoint of the tea party for example). So this is where skeptic editors face a challenge too! I'm a little wonky nerdy type, so I actually enjoy this sort of work and challenge.

Also, I would not assume that I have the same bias that say Dr. Chopra would have regarding his views. Before I got this gig, I was not a 'follower' of Deepak Chopra and actually never read much of his work. I also did not have much an opinion on it either. Now that I dive into this work, I've actually been a little shocked to discover many things that I assumed were true about Dr Chopra were my own misperceptions (for example, I assumed he was an alternative medicine practitioner, he isn't) and I also was not aware of the high level of acceptance Dr Chopra has on the world stage. So unless someone is an extremist of some kind, I think most rational people can be aware of their own viewpoints and be aware of how those viewpoints are being represented and can take responsibility to represent those viewpoints without using biased language.

let's keep this discussion going, yes? I'm not the enemy, and believe it or not, I am fascinated by this 'problem' and I think we can work together to find a productive solution. I think this will speak well for the skeptic community and Wikipedia. Problem I have is that since skeptic groups or organizations have so committed themselves in a certain direction - if they reach out and work with an opposing viewpoint they get pressure from their own peers which prevents a solution from occurring since they have locked themselves into a debate and any resolution will cause them to lose respect or position. Very human problem that has nothing to do with the ideology behind it, it's just human nature getting in the way. SAS81 (talk) 16:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

"Without bias therefore means INCLUDING all facts and attributing all points of view directly to their sources without being represented as a source for those views or facts." Here at Wikipedia, we're extremely cautious about labeling information as "facts" especially when that information comes from people with fringe beliefs and products and services based upon those fringe beliefs.

Likewise, we don't care about all points of view, only prominent ones.

Wikipedia is not a venue for promotion, especially when there's a conflict of interest. --Ronz (talk) 18:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

To expand on Ronz's reply, do you truly think it's possible or even reasonable to include all points of view? For instance, should every article on the Holocaust include a section on how holocausts deniers interpret the information, and another section for how various Muslim groups interpret the information? Wouldn't that be giving these views some undeserved appearance of acceptance by mainstream historians? Additionally, do you really want us to include every negative thing written about Deepak Chopra by quackwatch? Or even by mainstream newspapers like The Guardian who published this critique by one of his contemporaries Susan Blackmore? If we do accept that not all possible views should be included, then we agree to some form of editorializing. Rules for which have been fiercely debated and laid down by our editorial forefathers (so to speak).

However, if you truly do think all these views should be included, I ask, have you taken it upon yourself to add such negative critiques of Chopra's page? If not, isn't that a measure of biased editorializing on your part? Which I would suggest again brings us back to the inherent bias needing agreed upon rules for editorializing with COI issues. The third option of course is that Ronz and I misunderstood your definition of being "without bias". For which I am happy to entertain the correction. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 21:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

@Ronz - my answer was to the question what does 'without bias' mean and my answer was broad, it was not meant to reflect what Wikipedia should do or be like, it was meant to represent how ISHAR represents knowledge or facts without bias. Of course Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, and ISHAR is committed to those policies and guidelines. I was rather hoping you could find some appreciation to how we approach things and see similarities where we can find consensus. SAS81 (talk) 00:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dkriegls I'm not sure if you're asking me a broad, almost philosophical question about presentation of knowledge in general without bias or if your question is to Wikipedia specifically - my answer was meant to reflect the former. Bias, and without bias, are expressed in language and text and context primarily. I can hold a biased view of say, Justin Beiber, who personally makes me gag, but I Can still frame a neutral sentence about him that says 'Justin Beiber is very popular'. I dont need to write 'Justin Beiber is popular with people who have no taste in music' as that reveals my bias. I also dont need to associate the meaning of him being very popular with other things that would discredit him in the eyes of those who I think would know better, such as readers of Rolling Stone, such as 'Teen Beat magazine claims he is the most popular singer ever'. Also, great to know there is no spell check for Beiber, so I'm winging the spelling here.

If both of you are wondering my thoughts on how this should play out on Wikipedia, maybe this can help. And please keep in mind that my point of view is always evolving. In matters of a BLP, I believe that readers should be able to discover who someone is, what their ideas are, and what reception they have had. So to your analogy re: holocaust survivor museum, no of course not but the same with someone's BLP. If I go to a holocaust survivor museum, I want to learn about what it was like for THEM, and I want to know about their experiences. I don't want to learn about the holocaust from the point of view of the aggressors. Likewise, if I go to a Deepak Chopra article, I want to learn about HIM and HIS ideas, not what his ideas look like through the eyes of those who are suspicious of him. If suspicions of him are prominent (and they admittedly are) I would expect to find those too. I would NOT expect the article to confuse the both of them. And that's what I am here to help with. I think we can have both. I want the article to address your concerns too, I'm not trying to fluff it up or remove criticisms. We can discuss this more if you like.

SAS81 (talk) 00:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Also, the question "will we have critics of Dr Chopra on ISHAR" My position is yes we will, however our focus is different. We will be showing the discussion around the critics and where the discussion is at. SAS81 (talk) 00:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I think we have hit upon a key concept in WP. On WP we report on HIM and HIS ideas as reported on by reliable secondary sources. They don't have to be "those who are suspicious". The secondary sources we choose and the prominence we give the content based on their published reporting is according to the due weight they have in representing the mainstream academic community. This is the encyclopedic nature and policy of WP. If one wants to find out all about HIM and HIS ideas one can go to HIS website and read HIS books etc. I hope this is abundantly clear. This is fully documented and explained in the core policy WP:NPOV. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

SAS81, I'm not sure I follow, as I now understand you to be suggesting the opposite of what I first thought. As MrBill explained above, are you suggesting that only Deepak Chopra's perspective of himself should be represented by his BLP? I honestly don't think that's what you meant, but that is how I am currently reading your last comment. Though I am using the Chopra article as an example, I am asking for the broad philosophical view of what it means to you to be "without bias" in a world with no external verification as the traditional scientific method describes it. What Chopra explains as a world "created" by consciousness and not one simply experience by consciousness, thus allowing for an external world that can be tested and verified. Your example: "I Can still frame a neutral sentence about him that says 'Justin Beiber is very popular'"; fits Wikipedia's NPOV, but I don't think it fit's your claim of "without bias" as it is biased towards a Neutral Point of View. Pinning down this point of distinction seems important to understand because you claim to be working to represent Chopra's materiel "without bias" while other Wikipedia editors who appear to at be odds with you are claiming they are working towards a NPOV. I don't have a new question to sum up my thoughts this time because I am still wondering what you mean when you say you are working to represent the materiel "without bias". Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's important to grasp that we are not so much writing an article about Chopra, as merely digesting what serious sources have to say about him. If no serious source takes Chopra seriously (pretty much the case), Wikipedia will reflect that. This, in WP terms, is neutral. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 07:30, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

• We are certainly writing about Chopra and his ideas, reception, criticism We digest sources to do that. Removing the idea that this is not about Chopra but about sources removes the humanity from our decision making and opens the door for abuse.
• Academic sources are generally good, verifiable sources. They are not the only good sources.
• Chopra is a world renowned figure for his work in multiple areas. Our articles had better reflect that in addition to the criticism launched against him. Any other approach such as making sure no one takes Chopra seriously is NPOV.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC))

MrBill3 - sure, we use secondary sources to report on him, but we also are guided to use primary sources, with care - to verify secondary sources - and that just make sense to do in some, but not all situations. There seems to be allot of variance in interpretation amongst editors here. For example, in the case of Dr Chopra’s article, Capn, SlimVirgin, Atama, Olive Oil and I all agreed on how to use primary sources with secondary sources. Ronz and a few others had a different idea.

I STRONGLY disagree that the encyclopedia isn’t a place to learn about someone’s ideas and life but a place to learn about how others view the subject - that statement seems very counterintuitive and a little extreme and would be an entirely subjective process, devoid of much value. Wikipedia wants to be a respected encyclopedia. Of course the article should not be like the subject’s website, that would be ridiculous. But if the subject says on his website or book, “My views are x”, and a secondary sources says “his views are Y” then it’s mind boggling to assume that we must misrepresent the views of a biography, even knowingly, because the secondary source trumps all. That’s an algorithm for a unreliable encyclopedia. I see the encyclopedia as a place to learn about people, places and things and we compile the articles through secondary sources as a methodology for determining notability, reliability and verifiability only.

As to ‘those suspicious of him’ I was primarily referring to the editors on the article, not necessarily the sources they are using. SAS81 (talk) 15:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Hello! I'm not sure whether this is the appropriate place to ask, but I'm trying to figure out whether a book is self-published or not. The company is called Betterway Home Books and this is the book in question. At the end of the cited passage, it notes: "for more information, head to SimpleMom.net [the author's blog] and search oil cleansing method" This leads me to believe it is not WP:Reliable. Thoughts? - Sweet Nightmares 20:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

That company website and the author's blog set my alarms ringing. But the Google book link says that it was published by F+W media, this gives it a little more credibility since the publishing company looks respectable enough. I would say that this is moderately reliable. I see that the article you linked has its notability disputed and uses only this as a source. The source (if it indeed mentions the subject, I didn't check) does give it some notability but you may need more if it has to survive an AFD via WP:GNG. Good day, Ugog Nizdast (talk) 05:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I smell Appeal to tradition POV pushing with this single sourced article. Worth watching with skeptical eyes. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 04:46, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

A Request for Comments is in progress at Talk:Cold fusion concerning which of the WP:ARBPS categories of research (unquestionably pseudoscience, generally considered pseudoscience but with a following, widely accepted but considered pseudoscience by critics, alternative scientific formulations) should be associated with cold fusion, also known as low-energy nuclear reactions. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Wow, I really did want to get involved with that debate, but I found it was going over my head on the topic. There seems to be a clear pseudoscience fringe pushing there, but the subtleties between what is actually new technology and what is pseudoscience was a bit hard to asses from a layman's knowledge of the subject. This debate could really benefit from skeptic who are experts on the topic if any member of this group has a friend or colleague they might be able to recruit to review the current debate and add their expert opinion (with citations of course). --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 04:51, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion on Eastern medicine at WikiProject Countering systemic bias may be of interest to the members of this project. Sam Walton (talk) 14:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I added the 'conferences' section and improved the 'organizations' section in the List of skeptics and skeptical conferences and organizations (that I renamed for this purpose). Shouldn't we split this list up in three separate pages about skeptics, conferences and organisations? There is already a list of books about skepticism, we could also create lists for skeptical podcasts, skeptical magazines and skeptical television shows and films. On top of that, we can create a 'lists of skeptical topics' or 'lists about skepticism' as a list of lists page (similar to lists of atheists). Greetings, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:02, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Ya, I would split it in two; with Notable skeptics making up their own list. You should also change the name in the Skepticism footer, or more accurately add both new lists there. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 04:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Why two instead of three? I'd say conferences and organisations require their own separate lists, don't they? And yes, I'll update the template once the split is done. ;) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:34, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Done. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

A RSN discussion regarding Vani Hari, a.k.a. FoodBabe, has been posted at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#SPS material for Vani Hari. – S. Rich (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I have initiated a discussion on this controversy given detailed mentions in multiple reliable sources.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:41, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a disagreement developing at the article on Wireless power transmission, over the section on Nikola Tesla's contributions (or lack thereof). Additional opinions would be welcome. See Talk:Wireless power#Way too much Tesla. Thanks --Chetvorno^TALK 04:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I expanded the article on James Randi's classic skeptic book Flim-Flam! enough that it is eligible for DYK. The nomination would have to go up in the next 24 hours or so. Anyone familiar/interested in the DYK process? It would be nice to see one of the seminal works of skepticism by one of the vanguards of the movement on the front page. - - MrBill3 (talk) 13:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

 Done. Nice job on the article, Mr Bill! I was not sure what hook you wanted to use, so for starters I went with "... that James Randi used his 1980 book Flim-Flam! to announce an annual award for "the psychic who fools the greatest number of people with the least effort"? There is the facility to add one or two alternate hooks if anybody has a better idea: to do this, just fill in the ALT1 field (and add ALT2 if necessary) in the nomination form at Template:Did you know nominations/Flim-Flam!.

Follow the progress of the nomination through the review process at Template_talk:Did_you_know#Articles_created.2Fexpanded_on_August_11 (seriously, you should bookmark it and watch it in case the reviewers ask questions). Be aware that there is a large backlog of articles awaiting review, so it may take some time. I might as well put in a plug here: any experienced editors reading this can help by reviewing a DYK nomination at Template_talk:Did_you_know; the instructions are there at the top of the page. Bill, I hope this helps, and congratulations again. --Gronk Oz (talk) 16:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

This AfD could use some input from knowledgeable editors here. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 18:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The above RfC relates to the basic topic area of this project, and all informed opinions are welcome. John Carter (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Over at WikiProject Chemistry, we've been trying to resolve some of the merge proposals for articles in our scope. One of these is a proposed merger of Fluoride toxicity into Fluoride. There's not a strong consensus either way at the moment, but it seems agreed that Fluoride Toxicity is (or was) overly reliant on non-WP:MEDRS compliant sources. As it stands now, I think the main question is whether, once non-WP:MEDRS-sourced statements are removed, there will be enough left over to justify its own article. Would anyone mind taking a moment to go through and assess to what degree it will be possible to clean up the article without gutting it? 0x0077BE [^talk/_contrib] 13:18, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I have proposed the merger of Superfruit into an article in your project's scope, Superfood. Discussion is centralized at Talk:Superfood#Proposed_merger_of_Superfruit_into_Superfood. Thanks for your time. 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 20:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Radin and company have recently released a new study (in a physics journal which, while peer reviewed, has a history of publishing crackpots) in which they claim to demonstrate that meditation can influence the results of double-slit experiments. It's circulating all the new-age blogs right now. Probably worth watching out for; especially considering the "now with peer reviewed journal entry" connotations. Simonm223 (talk) 17:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Wasn't this a year ago? When he reported weak replication of the 2012 PHYSICS ESSAYS "Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern -Six Experiments"? Ptarmigander (talk) 02:11, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. Goblin Face (talk) 14:58, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

This is a notice about Category:Rational Skepticism articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 19:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Things are quiet at Helm's Deep-ak. It's walls are well defended. But Saruman and his servant Grima are busy in Isengard and they are marshaling their hordes outside our borders. They have devised numerous devilments that can penetrate our inner walls and they are now organizing them and putting them in place.

Saruman's army is an army bred of one purpose. To bring down our walls and instill their dark ways upon us all. Watchers are waiting at stationed positions and at the first intrusions alarms will sound and the beacons will shine.

There may come a time when the hordes will gain entry, overrun our defenses and do their worst, but this will not be that time and this will not be that day. This will be a time when we will draw our swords together and stand side by side!

Take warning! Be ready! The Horn will soon sound. Ptarmigander (talk) 16:03, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

@~@~@~@~@~

I think you were looking for Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth. This project is for rational, non-cryptic editing discussions. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 04:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

__________________________________________________________ Dkriegls and other Wikipedians.. "Saruman's army is an army bred of one purpose. To bring down our walls and instill their dark ways upon us all." Here he is marshaling recruits and resources for the attack under the duplicitous guise of correcting misinformation. Ptarmigander (talk) 15:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NEQvrcVcQo#t=39

Looks like Deepak may have dropped out of the board. He is no longer listed. I suspect he was concerned it was turning out similar to how he reportedly got fleeced the year before by Intentional Chocolate's James Walsh when Chopra and Walsh set up The Consciousness Project a system of prizes and grants - to rival the Nobel Prize- for "consciousness" (mind over matter) studies.

Ishar only achieved 46% of their Raise Ishar indigogo goal. Being on flexible funding they get to keep that money and are still begging for more. They project a December 1st roll out now.

$22,846USD

raised of $50,000 goal

46%

0 time left

This campaign started on Sep 15 and closed on November 14, 2014 (11:59pm PT).

Flexible Funding

Campaign Closed

This campaign ended on November 14, 2014

Still probably good to keep one eye open Ptarmigander (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the follow up on this. I've already seen their very existence used as a talking point to try and prove that "their science" has been suppressed all along. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 22:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Deepak is back.. he was missing for a spell but is now listed as a "champion" and "advisor" on the "board of curators". ISHAR is busy getting ready for going live in one day as per their announced Dec. 1st rollout. I think there will be some interesting developments as soon as there are ISHAR interactions with Wikipedia. Ptarmigander (talk) 16:42, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Dec. 1st has come and gone and really nothing of interest is coming out of ISHAR. Until there is real interaction with Wikipedia I guess there is little to be done. Since ISHAR is an anti Wikipedia initiative organized by Tumbleman and ASKAHRC/the Cap'n -who are bad faith editors of the past- no real issue arises until/unless they interact once again with Wikipedia. ( from their website: "ISHAR’s researchers are all Wikipedians and are responsible for improving the encyclopedia..") Their hope is to rally new-agers, alternative med. and yoga and meditation practitioners to take up their cause. So far this exploitation seems only to be a way to solicit cash from these believers and practitioners and also get money from the disgruntled New Age Wikipedia Page holders that are unhappy with their treatment on Wikipedia. If ACEP and Deepak Chopra and Rupert Sheldrake etc.. etc., want to give these guys thousands of dollars under the guise of "correcting" Wikipedia I suppose that is a form of karmic justice especially if this money does nothing to change their bios or the pages of the so called alternative modalities which they make their bread and butter by. Jim Walsh of Intentional Chocolate has shown before what an easy mark these people can be. Until there are actually droves of new-agers using ISHAR materials to try to edit and raise Wikipedia's vibration. Heh. I suppose it is just an amusing sideshow. A tempest in a neti pot. Ptarmigander (talk) 16:09, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Well.. it turns out that ISHAR Wikipedian SAS81 has been blocked as a sock of the notorious Tumbleman. And user Askahrc/ the Cap'n is employed as the Archivist for ISHAR.Ptarmigander (talk) 16:59, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

ISHAR has as a goal providing formatted references and sources for pseudoscience and fringe topics that can then- by way of canvassing and organizing- be flooded into Wikipedia. This project has support of groups like ACEP and The Society for Psychical Research and individuals ranging from Deepak Chopra to Rupert Sheldrake, Robert Shwarz and Dean Radin. They also are supported by people that make money from Tapping (EFT), Life After Death, other "energy therapies" accupuncture, dowsing, homeopathy, kinesiology, mind over matter (magical intent) and what they call consciousness studies - which generally is the belief that since everything is consciousness and (they claim) consciousness is the primal substance of the universe that your (yes your) consciousness has godly superpowers and can do anything it sets it mind to do. This idea has a lot of appeal to the masses and that can sell a lot of products. No matter that it is wholly lacking in valid scientific support and is blatant hucksterism. In order to sell these pseudoscience ideas as products in the New Age market it is necessary to present them as 'the latest advancements of science". Part of a coming new age of "enlightened" "spiritual" science- "who's time has come". Wikipedia by not buying into this agenda stands in their way. Hence ISHAR. An organization cooked up by Wikipedia editors Tumbleman (currently banned) and The Cap'n and funded and helped in it's organization by Deepak Chopra. Here on ISHAR's page titled "Wikipedia -ISHAR as Wikipedia representative" they give an example of their formatting. They have chosen a decidedly non pseudoscience topic to showcase because their strategy is to masquerade as a non biased research and archiving "library". They like to call it (ISHAR) a "Library of Alexandria" as this gives their endeavor a lofty feel and appeals to the New Agers from whom they have been soliciting donations. The article they have chosen is "Caloric intake and aging: mechanisms in rodents and a study in nonhuman primates". This choice is likely because one of the ways that they are pushing pseudoscience is by exploiting the idea that human lifespan can be extended by means of various products, activities and therapies that they have mingled with their fantastic claims of psychic energy and "consciousness". These are commercial ventures and the goal is largely financial. The idea is that people can forestall aging by buying their books and products, taking their workshops, receiving or learning their therapies and believing in and spreading their pseudoscience. Fundamental to this whole movement is the belief that if enough people believe something it will become reality. This is a Chopra-esque and other new age entrepreneurial formula called "critical mass". A "global shift" It was originally called the "Hundredth Monkey theory". Thus the idea is that by changing Wikipedia they can change reality. I don't know if they believe this really or if it is just a sneaky way to create marketability of their products. I suspect it is an abundance of both.

In any case I encourage all Wikipedians to educate themselves about this initiative and any others like it. And because ISHAR specifically is a proxy and brainchild of an indefinitely blocked editor (Tumbleman) and other editor(s) masquerading as model Wikipedians while engaging in these anti Wikipedia activities I suggest pursuing any and all efforts and remedies to limit their activities in regard to direct editing. This would mean blocking editors that are obviously canvassed and organized through ISHAR (the so-called "ISHAR Wikipedians") who show a pattern of trying to cram "properly formatted" pseudoscience references into historically contested (battleground) fringe and alternative med. articles.

PS regarding the study: "Caloric intake and aging: mechanisms in rodents and a study in nonhuman primates" this is an old study and it has not been supported by further research. If you are interested please see here.. and here. Thank you for your time and consideration in reading this. Ptarmigander (talk) 18:57, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

This is both rather odd and unnecessarily alarmist. Yes, I work as an archivist with ISHAR, that's stated clearly on my user page. No, there's no conspiracy by immortal charlatans to overthrow Wikipedia, nor is ISHAR a proxy of a blocked editor, it's just a research archive, plain & simple. It seems unreasonable (understatement) to seek the preemptive banning of all personnel and visitors of ISHAR just because it offers the fairly standard function of formatting academic sources for citations, especially given that this function comes with a disclaimer emphasizing Wikipedia policies and ideals. The Cap'n (talk) 07:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

"It's just a research archive, plain & simple" - The Cap'n

Rome Viharo/Tunbleman- "WOW, Robert Schwarz - Hey ISHAR, why are you a benefit to the mind/body community? Hey ISHAR, just how are you a benefit?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Fz3cX4FWk

"What are you going to do with this information- I mean we need more than just another database .. don't we?" - Robert Schwarz Executive Director- Association For Comprehensive Energy Psychology (ACEP) and a founding "Curator" of ISHAR. Ptarmigander (talk) 17:21, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

"ISHAR will combat misunderstanding" "We are not passive observers but active agents.." "If facts are being misrepresented ISHAR will be there to ensure accurate information is available and defended."

"Take Emotional Freedom Techniques and Energy Psychology.. despite large amounts of research on the topic if you look at the Wikipedia page on EFT you would think there was only one person in the world that supported it.. that person was a whacko.. and that there wasn't a ton of information out there supporting it. When in fact there is a lot of research that supports it." "What can ISHAR do about that?" "ISHAR's library contains dozens of scientific articles on EFT and will convert them into Wikipedia-formatting for you."

"Every time someone tries to challenge the content on a Wikipedia page in some of these integrative studies like EFT they get slammed with ever changing lists of rules, the editors don't even follow their own guidelines, and then these folks are eventually harassed off the page." "Why would ISHAR succeed in getting facts properly represented where others haven't?"

"ISHAR is designed to change the paradigm of online discussion, including Wikipedia. ISHAR's staff are experienced Wikepedia editors who know how to work with hostile individual editors."

"WE know Wikipedia policies. Have the sources to Back up our statements and the determination to follow through. ISHAR confronts abusive editors by being better Wikipedians than they are."

"When bias and hostility take root on "controversial" pages ISHAR will be there to provide accurate information alternative approaches and fair discussion." "Ishar provides the reliable sources that that make Wikipedia informative and safeguards the ideals that make it neutral" "We will not compromise on either front."

"ISHAR will provide information. Correct misrepresentation of sources. Enforce content standards. Challenge double standards. Educate the public. Empower researchers. Lead discussions online. Uphold Wikipedia ideals. be neutral. Be reliable. Be free." -from the video-

Seems like it is intended to be more than "Just a research archive, plain and simple" as the Cap'n keeps saying. Looks more like an organized advocacy and attack.

As Bernardo Kastrup says in his solicitation for ISHAR donations.. it is an "epic archetypal battle". So I think the ISHAR people have done their share to create this "epic battle" idea.

I think the Cap'n is less than forthcoming about all this and the end result of ISHAR will be a huge waste of time. Both for the Wikipedia community and even for the so called "mind body" community which has helped fund the project.

The Cap'n has already been warned about wasting the Wikipedia community's time in areas related to pseudoscience and fringe science. And now he is at the helm of ISHAR which has been canvassing and organizing and soliciting donations for activities that will turn out to be much greater time wasting for Wikipedia editors.

While the proof is in the pudding so we can wait and see what -if anything- it comes to. One can hope that ISHAR and the Chopra Foundation get some common sense and abandon any plans to organize "ISHAR Wikipedians" to "combat misunderstanding" "Correct misrepresentation" "Enforce content standards". "Challenge double standards" and "Lead discussions online"- Which I think would be against Wikipedia standards and policies.

It seems to me that both Rome Viharo/Tumbleman and the Cap'n have not been honest in how they represent themselves and their ISHAR activities on Wikipedia compared to how ISHAR is represented off Wikipedia. Since the Cap'n has already been warned about time wasting activities in fringe and pseudoscience areas I believe that he should be closely watched since his organization- ISHAR- has made statements that clearly point toward it being determined to try to do so. Ptarmigander (talk) 19:55, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Good point. Also, one, um, maybe strange question - what exactly is the title of this $&@* thread supposed to mean? I assume it is some sort of reference to something, but I have no clue what that something might be. John Carter (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Please note my response on your Talk Page, Ptarmigander. I have no desire to derail this page any further by repeatedly explaining that when I say "If/when we interact with WP, we strictly adhere to WP policies and ideals," that is not secret code for "Our only purpose is to undermine and attack WP." The Cap'n (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting this misleading quote. The Cap'n (talk) 21:33, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi John Carter.. always a pleasure. Helm's Deepak was a word-play reference to the battle of Helm's Deep from Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings- The Two Towers of course. The Horn of Helm Hammerhand is a gigantic horn sounded at the approach of an enemy. And Saruman -and his servant Grima Wormtongue- would be organizers of the battle for Helm's Deep.

Grima (Wormtongue) was a humorous reference to SAS81 who was a paid representative of Deepak Chopra. SAS81 was always saying that he was an archivist for an entirely non biased non-pseudoscience "library" named ISHAR that was a model upholder of Wikipedia policies and a great gift and service to Wikipedia. It turned out that SAS81 was Tumbleman/Rome Viharo who was an indefinitely blocked editor masquerading as a reputable, highly principled contributor.

So the adherence to the highest Wikipedia standards and policies was a farce from the beginning. Hence Grima. Ptarmigander (talk) 22:27, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Or it's an important value and there's a reason SAS81 is no longer working for ISHAR. Also, in the midst of comparing the people you disagree with on WP to the utterly evil, murderous hordes that must be slaughtered by the faction of Rohan (who I assume you identify with) and calling on editors to prepare for battle with these allegorical monsters, did you ever pause to check out WP:BATTLEGROUND? I highly recommend doing so. The Cap'n (talk) 23:02, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes Wikipedia is not a battle ground and sounding the horn is not an attack.. it is a warning. A warning response to months of deceit by the main ISHAR Wikipedian SAS81, and to statements like when Deepak Chopra said - quite obviously referencing his involvement with funding ISHAR- "I am definitely going to pursue this correction of behavior of some very bigoted, predjudiced people on Wikipedia..." and when Bernardo Kastrup refers to ISHAR's activities as a "major archetypal battle" and says donating money to ISHAR is "your historical opportunity to join this battle". And when Robert Schwarz of ACEP says that "ISHAR will combat misinformation.." and ACEP says about ISHAR "If you continue to be frustrated by the way so-called “skeptics” have usurped Wikipedia, this is a way to bring power to bear on them". This doesn't sound like a "research archive, plain and simple" and when you, Cap'n, try to play "gotcha" with WP:BATTLEGROUND I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on. Ptarmigander (talk) 01:12, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to cut and paste rewrite from Talk:Autism Research Institute/draft into blanked article. I think needed changes can be made after the cut and paste and that the draft is acceptable improvement of existing article. - - MrBill3 (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Could someone or several people please help me here, to find a solution in demarcating the differences and similarities between skepticism, atheism, freethought, humanism, secularism etc. and whether all of those conferences should be included in the list of skeptical conferences or not? Thanks. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

excuse me if this is the wrong place, but this article is in desperate need of help Gunung Padang. It is full of claims of ancient pyramids dating back before the last ice ages. Someone involved in the Wikipedia should see at it. Please. For the love of God. 172.56.30.120 (talk) 05:18, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi,

A journalist is inquiring about a response to claims by an "energy psychology" practitioner that WIkipedia is biased against "holistic therapies". He is apparently a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and he suggests that our entries Energy medicine and Emotional Freedom Techniques have deliberately excluded relevant peer-reviewed scientific research.

I'm looking for someone willing to engage on this topic. Preferably someone with appropriate scientific credentials themselves, but barring that, an excellent and level-headed Wikipedia editor with intimate knowledge of this area would be good.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

If no one else comes forward, I would be happy to talk to the journalist. I can be contacted through my user page. But I will defer to more active participants in this project if someone else would like to speak to the journalist. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: Do you have any more specifics about the conflict? Nothing is obviously jumping out at me on either of the talk pages, so it seems like it would be hard to discuss the particular reasoning used.0x0077BE [^talk/_contrib] 16:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I too am not seeing relevant peer reviewed research proposed for inclusion on the talk pages. Some specifics from the edit history might be useful in providing examples/context. Has this peer reviewed research been posted to the talk pages of the articles? Has content from this research been added then removed? Absent examples the claim seems rather vague. I would assume a journalist would have done some research into the editing and discussion of these two articles and be able to provide examples of edits, discussions and excluded research.

Of note the WP:Fringe theories/Noticeboard is considerably more active than this project and a good place to bring a discussion of the editing of these two articles and of interpretation and application of policy regarding alt/fringe medicine. Similarly the WikiProject Medicine talk page is another active venue where these topics and editing this kind of article are discussed. As the articles present biomedical information there has likely been vigorous application of WP:MEDRS. I have been active in quite a few discussions on reliable sources, MEDRS, alternative and fringe topics and would be happy to discuss the subject. I don't hold much in the way of credentials but I am fairly well versed in policy, decent at finding and assessing research and generally level headed. I can be reached on my talk page or via email.

I am willing to look at this peer reviewed research, post it to the talk pages and engage in the discussion and editing of the articles. This might provide the best possible understanding of the WP process to a journalist. - - MrBill3 (talk) 07:40, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help. I'm a scientist and peer reviewer for the Journal of Clinical Psychology. I am almost done with my PhD in Clinical Psychology at IIT (thesis proposed/collecting data) but am not an "expert" on either Energy medicine and Emotional Freedom Techniques. I have a solid background in assessing pseudoscientific literature and have previously read both articles. Like the above editors, I do not know of any peer-reviewed Wikipedia articles from respected journals being "deliberately excluded" from either article. Please feel free to direct the journalist here or to my talk page. And as mentioned above, direct links to the attempted suppression would make for a more informative discussion. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 03:31, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales Dkriegls and other Wikipedians "It took the organizational strength of ACEP (Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology) to change the APA’s stance on energy psychology. More recently, ACEP has focused its organizational strength on new goals. We are advocating for integrity in following the doctrines of fair play and neutrality in describing and evaluating EP (Energy Psychology), EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques) and other integrative approaches on the web and in print. ISHAR stands for the same things. We are so pleased to have an ally in ISHAR."

"If you continue to be frustrated by the way so-called “skeptics” have usurped Wikipedia, this is a way to bring power to bear on them." So uh.. OK Yogis and meditators and alternatively concerned citizens.. get out your pocketbooks and help the attack on Wikipedia. Oh wait help the neutral fair minded "online digital library of Alexandria" correct imbalance at Wikipedia by "improving the encyclopedia in strict accordance to the spirit and letter of Wikipedia’s guidelines". "I.S.H.A.R. is a library dedicated to preserving ideas whose time have come". "Now launching December 2014".Ptarmigander (talk) 17:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Being addressed as: "Jimbo Wales Dkriegls and other Wikipedians" sure makes this nerd all tingally inside. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 09:20, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Tingly is good Dan.

The Society for Psychical Research is trying the same tactic.

"If we go about it in an orderly way I’m pretty confident that the encyclopedia will soon be in the top four or five rankings for searches on paranormal topics, along with other new projects that are about to launch, such as Deepak Chopra’s ISHAR and Rupert Sheldrake’s Open Sciences."

"I thought we needed a viable alternative to Wikipedia, where psi-related articles have become almost unreadable as a result of editing by sceptics."

"How do you think sceptics will react to this?"

“I think they’ll be challenged by it. For a long time now they haven’t had to do any real work. They can simply lift bits and bobs from the research literature that support their case, quote them out of context – job done. This will change the game entirely." "It’s inevitable that this will eventually impact on the media, which will make a big difference. Until now sceptics like Richard Wiseman have been able to say pretty much what they like on radio or TV, with the expectation of being taken seriously by programme producers and presenters. The opposition – psychic claimants, mediums, parapsychologists – are at a disadvantage because educated people don’t know about the scientific research that supports their position. But I can imagine situations where the sceptics start getting push-back from journalists who have taken the trouble to educate themselves. This will be an interesting development, to say the least!” Ptarmigander (talk) 09:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks like this is the guy. Harvard Doc To Wikipedia: You’re Not Playing Fair On Alternative Trauma Therapy. "Their entries use a range of emotionally loaded and downright pejorative terms to describe Energy Psychology" Ptarmigander (talk) 21:26, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't many claims of that kind be within the scope of the James Randi Foundation million dollar prize? Why claim that Wikipedia is unbalanced when there is one million dollars waiting for the person who can show that energy healing really works? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 23:20, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Tossing the Randi Challenge at the people that are pushing the Wikipedia We Have a Problem viewpoint will carry little or no weight in this issue. They feel they have tons of genuine sources in the form of valid studies and that skeptics are blocking them. Needless to say the instigators of these anti Wikipedia initiatives tend to have financial reasons for their actions. As stated above what is needed is highly competent and knowledgeable Wikipedia editors. As these pseudo-therapy/consciousness entrepreneurs organize public relations campaigns against Wikipedia and attempt to exploit the new age/ yoga/ meditation communities to their service more experienced editors (and possibly more and stronger administrative remedies) will be needed. IMHO. Ptarmigander (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion would be a policy statement that restricts editors that come from organized anti-wikipedia sites and initiatives -especially ones that are set up and run by previously banned and/or known sock-puppet abusers that now are making money by organizing against Wikipedia (and getting funding from New Age and pseudoscience authors and instructors who are unhappy with their Wikipedia pages). I would just nip that in the bud by creating a general rule before it becomes a huge pain in the rear and time waster for more honest and rational editors.Ptarmigander (talk) 17:27, 1 December 2014 (UTC).

You mean like WP:MEAT and WP:CANVAS? 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 17:50, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes. As long as they can be well applied to these anti- Wik initiatives and other editors are informed about said initiatives so they know to apply these and other existing remedies. I also support publicly addressing (yes, I know, re-adressing) the issue and doing it artfully. The response By JW in regard to the Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology petition is direct and I think well stated .. but it also is used against Wikipedia because it is so terse and brief. JW asked for some help in this issue of the Harvard Energy Pysch Doc's complaint. Since this issue is not currently subsiding and may be part of growing more organized anti Wikipedia efforts I think a further expanded policy statement coming from the horse's mouth would be helpful. That is simply my suggestion.. that he do something further about it himself. In any case I am fine with watching the battle continue. I do feel some concern for people that generally have good intentions getting swept up in the frenzy of anti Wikipedia views in part because I think more could be done to clarify Wikipedia's position for the public.. I think it is good to have this discussion. (And not just here in the back-waters). So thank you for replying.Ptarmigander (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

If, as I think you are indicating above, you are seeking some sort of clear policy statements, you might have more luck going to either the specific relevant policy page and requesting clarification of the policy or going to the Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and proposing policy changes there. At this point, Jimbo's role in determining content and conduct policies here is rather negligible, as he has repeatedly said that in most matters not relating specifically to legal concerns, the community is in the position to determine policies and guidelines. John Carter (talk) 18:47, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi John C. Long time. I am not proposing any policy changes. Don't think that is really needed. I am simply expanding some awareness and discussing the public relations aspects of Wikipedia in regard to The anti Wikipedia initiatives backed by ACEP, The Society for Psychical Research, Deepak Chopra, Rupert Sheldrake, Dean Radin, Craig Weiler, ISHAR - (which is Rome Viharo/ Tumbleman/ SAS81/ ASKAHRC / the Cap'n /who is ISHAR's Director of Archiving).

I guess a lot of hard working editors did not know that about "the Cap'n" when he was editing contributing and voting on Deepak's page.

I don't know if you still are swallowing that Archive-Library of Alexandria respectability stuff but regardless of that.. it seems nice to bump into you again. Ptarmigander (talk) 19:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I thought you were making some specific policy proposals here:

"My suggestion would be a policy statement that restricts editors that come from organized anti-wikipedia sites and initiatives -especially ones that are set up and run by previously banned and/or known sock-puppet abusers that now are making money by organizing against Wikipedia (and getting funding from New Age and pseudoscience authors and instructors who are unhappy with their Wikipedia pages). I would just nip that in the bud by creating a general rule before it becomes a huge pain in the rear and time waster for more honest and rational editors.Ptarmigander (talk) 17:27, 1 December 2014 (UTC)."

I actually would myself probably support some such policy changes, if we could make it enforceable. Were there to be such changes, it would be really easy for such individuals to simply change their user name and say they aren't (whomever). I wouldn't necessarily oppose such a proposed policy change, if we could figure out a way to determine some reasonable limitations to it. So, for instance, a medical expert who happens to be a Christian and support the belief in some of the allegedly supernatural healings at Lourdes possibly shouldn't be automatically counted among such a group. Not saying that the alleged healings aren't "fringey," they are, but such a broad disqualification of experts would be problematic. John Carter (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I am concerned here with organized pseudoscience anti Wikipedia efforts coming in particular from bad faith (deceptive)past editors and disgruntled page holders. To that end I think raising awareness is the primary way to go. A general statement or editorial about the subject would not hurt. There seems to be plenty of good policy in place. I will give the whole issue some thought and get back. Ptarmigander (talk) 21:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps a well written, well linked and sourced essay that could be pointed to would be helpful? - - MrBill3 (talk) 05:42, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Right. Something like that. Something to point to. Observing that Jimmy Wales' "You have to be kidding me" response to the ACEP/ Change.org petition has added weight to Wikipedia policy and to some degree informed the general public.. I was probably thinking possibly more could be done. Why continue to wrestle with the tail when you can more effectively take off the head. When Jimmy says "If you can get your work published in respectable scientific journals" This gives the alternative med and spirituality entrepreneurs and their supporters fuel because they think that there are plenty of studies in reputable journals and that there is plenty of public and professional acceptance of what they are pushing. When I see all the clamor against Wikipedia in this area I find myself wishing that there was more information available that further clarified this matter. Then there could be more satisfying ready responses when a bloatful Harvard doc making his living off of mixing pretend energy with psychology whines about Wikipedia unfairness to the media. At least people in the general public.. who are often duped in this area.. could better, and more easily, understand the wisdom of Wikipedia's stance. Ptarmigander (talk) 18:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

...and then this happens, followed by this. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 13:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Those edits should probably be made invisible, in case that is some kind of prank on whoever's phone number that is. 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 04:45, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Good point. I didn't even think of that. All I can think is that she found me because I patrol the List of exorcists page. I do psychology by day and come here to not do psychology. Which is why I brought it to this talk page. Anyone thinking of being an ass, please don't. But I don't have the energy at the end of the day to call the number. John Carter's response was right on, but I doubt there will be any follow up from her. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 06:34, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello everyone, there is an RFC that people from this project may be interested in commenting on: Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#RfC: Is the Nature article an appropriate source for the claim it is attached to?. Thank you for your feedback. rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

several pages from Category:Pseudoscience; on the grounds that ‘pseudoscience’ is a judgmental epithet; also it is, IMO, a very stigmatizing label, so it should be used sparingly. Spanish Wikipedia says it eloquently: “No olvide que para utilizar esta categoría debe de haber una referencia verificable, fiable en la materia y sólida que especifique que la disciplina categorizada es una pseudociencia.” Rough translation: “In order for a page to be placed in this category, there must be reliable sources specifying that said subject is pseudoscience.” I strongly support this policy; subjects should only be categorized as pseudoscience if a preponderance of reliable sources (as I pointed out, a source with a conflict of interest is not reliable) say they are such. In other words, the burden of proof should be on those who claim a subject is pseudoscience, not on those who claim it is not.

Some of the pages I removed: Continental drip, Steatopygia.

Okay?--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 04:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

That category already includes the guideline that "Generally speaking, if an article belongs in this category, the article's lead will contain a well-sourced statement that the subject is considered pseudoscience." This looks quite similar to the Spanish quote you give, and I don't see any problem with removing the category from those two articles (although I have to wonder whether Continental drip is really notable.--Gronk Oz (talk) 05:11, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Gronk Oz, I know the English Wikipedia Category page has the same notice, but Spanish Wikipedia, IMO, says it more clearly and forcefully.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 08:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Gronk Oz, thank you for your comment.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 08:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Solomonfromfinland, not so fast. You're removing the meta-category for many things which are obvious pseudoscience (like astrology), and which are in subcategories of Pseudoscience (like Alternative medicine). It's best to leave them as they are. You risk being seen as a vandal. I suggest you do some fast backpedaling and undo a lot of what you're doing. Keep in mind that we don't care whether something is a pejorative or judgmental epithet, although with BLPs were are more careful. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

A rather aggressive editor has decided that the Vitalism article should no longer be included in Category:Pseudoscience. It's been there for a long time, until a few days ago when it was removed without regard to context or the sources in the article. I restored the status quo version and explained why to that editor. No problem.

Now another editor (who previously has defended pseudoscientific subjects) has aggressively undone my restoration and proclaimed that he and the other editor constitute a consensus, using very condescending language ("none of what you say makes sense to me, so I leave YOU out of the discussion"). There has been no discussion on the article's talk page.

He is also fighting a straw man in his comments and here. No one has tried to classify those scientists as pseudoscientists in that article, so he's tilting at windmills of his own creation.

It is still in the "Obsolete scientific theories" category. I suspect the best solution would be to have it in both categories (which has been the case for a long time), since they both apply. Without the PS category, which is backed up by sources in the article, we are ignoring vitalism's current status.

I am not edit warring and I'm not getting anywhere on his talk page, so more eyes and opinions need to be focused on the matter. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:28, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

"Although now rejected by mainstream science," with a great reference right there in the introduction. Ya, that qualifies it for pseudoscience categorization.Dkriegls (talk to me!) 07:49, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

This may be one of the waay way lesser known pseudosciences out there, but it's pretty rampant. Basically, to distill it down, a ton of these Waldorf schools are expanding across the US and elsewhere, and have become popular among progressive parents. But what isn't talked about often enough is the origin of Waldorf educaiton in the theory of Anthroposophy, which endorses belief in reincarnation cycles (which underlie the 7 year span of switching teachers), gnomes, ESP, and other pseudosciences. And the worst part, in my opinion, is that the lack of clarity about Anthroposophy is rampant. Parents send their kids to these schools thinking they sound awesome and progressive, but are unaware of the roots in pseudoscience. In fact, many schools in Europe and elsewhere, non american countries, advise openly against vaccination and allow bullying, due to it being a rehashing of karma and unresolved differences in past lives. The wikipedia entries on these topics are pretty much kept tightly biased by a few Waldorf teachers, and several of them have been banned from editing articles due to mediations, only to appeal and be reinstated. So I'd like to go through Waldorf Education, Anthroposophy, Rudolf Steiner, etc. and clean them up and add appropriately sourced criticism in proportional amounts to praise. Anyone wanna help? --Shibbolethink ^{♔ ♕} 22:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The lack of critical links on those pages is astounding. The "Scientific basis" section of the Anthroposophy article is particularity wanting as it hints at critique but apparently from supporters; and all around makes it sound like a new science breaking ground instead of the implausible pseudoscience that it is. I strongly encourage you to be bold with these pages. If you need your work reviewed or you get push back on adding valid citations, just holler for support. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

1. Anthroposophy is a philosophy; how can a philosophy be pseudoscience?
2. The critique in the section you mention is from academic sources. Where would you prefer it be drawn from?
3. Nothing in that section implies that anthroposophy is a "new science breaking ground", except perhaps one section that explains that Steiner wished to apply the scientific method to inner experience. HGilbert (talk) 20:07, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

1. If "Steiner wished to apply the scientific method to inner experience," then Anthroposophy is definitely elgible to be a pseudoscience. Also, again, if a number of WP:RS say something is a pseudoscience, then it's a pseudoscience. It's inarguable, except to produce other WP:RS that contradict the former, and then we'd have to say, "X, Y, and Z publications say Anthroposophy is a pseudoscience. Several sources contradict this...." etc. There's a process to this.
2. From a wide variety of WP:RS that aren't published by Anthroposophists, and are from a wide variety of sources, News Orgs, high traffic fact checked websites etc. etc. Per ArbCom's decision, published sources written by Anthroposophists don't count in this case.
3. See point 1. --Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:19, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeaaaaah @Dkriegls: One of the longtime editors of Waldorf Education, a Waldorf teacher and widespread writer on the theory of education, User:Hgilbert, is continually reverting my well-sourced and NPOV style edits. He accused me of being a sockpuppet of an activist editor who was banned from the article a few years ago, etc. So I could use some help :( Check out the Talk:Waldorf Education to see what I mean. Thanks!!!--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 14:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

First of all, education cannot be pseudoscience. Second, the claims made above are erroneous and show complete ignorance of anthroposophy, which does not assert that reincarnation is the basis for 7-year cycles of education, or that ESP exists, etc. Third, the sources that were in the article (before Shibboleth began changing it) were virtually all academic or other RS. He has added such excellent sources as Salon.com. HGilbert (talk) 15:04, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Education can indeed be /related/ to pseudoscience, if it is based upon pseudoscientific claims. I would see it as similar to the relationship between the practice of teaching creationism and the pseudoscience of intelligent design. One is a practice that relies on the other, which is a pseudoscience. Re: ESP, you're totally right, I was more referring to Steiner's belief that a Waldorf style education could allow students to communicate with the spirit world. Also, The BBC,^[1] the New York Times,^[2] the Chicago Tribune,^[3] The Guardian,^[4] and the Atlantic^[5] are all very reputable sources. In fact, there were several uses of another Atlantic source already present in the article when I started. I also added sources from educational reviews^[6] and medical journals,^[7] and plan on adding sources from Free Inquiry,^[8] (purely as an Opinion RS though) and an academic thesis by Sarah Whedon.^[9] The Salon article^[10] was just an added bonus. --Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:51, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

HGilbert said: "education cannot be pseudoscience". I doubt you could defend that claim with WP:Reliable sources. In contrast, it took me all of two minutes to find wp:reliable sources that specifically referred to Waldorf schools as pseudoscience: Headline from the The Guardian/The Observer "Schools of pseudoscience pose a serious threat to education: Maharishi and Steiner schools are just as dangerous as creationist schools"; The Chicago Tribune quoting Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education: "Scott accuses the schools of teaching "pseudoscience," promoting Steiner's theories that white light does not consist of colors and that humans evolved through spiritual stages." And my favorite...an actual scientific paper assessing whether Waldorf school philosophies were scientific or not. Their conclusion: "As a first step Waldorf should disregard Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy as the source of accurate scientific concepts. The basis for this recommendation is that Steiner’s teachings do not pass the tests of empiricism (a,b,c and d), are not testable by anyone (e), have not changed much, if any, since Steiner introduced them (f), and rely on paranormal statements that cannot be verified (g)." We literally can't get a more WP:Reliable source than that to declare Waldorf's philosophies to be pseudoscience. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 19:33, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

@Sgerbic: may want to see if the GSoW team can help provide good sources and content. Jerodlycett (talk) 04:41, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Just letting you all know a category of interest to us is up for discussion. Jerodlycett (talk) 03:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Please welcome our new sister: nl:Wikipedia:Wikiproject/Skepticisme. Jerod Lycett (talk) 23:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

To anyone interested, I'm working with several other Wikipedians on pages about Skeptical organisations in Europe. The main goal is to give each one at least an article in their native language and in English. Do you know Czech, Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Italian, Hungarian, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Russian, Slovak, Spanish and/or Swedish besides English? Please join us! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

BAn RFC: Should all discussions and proposals about Nikola Tesla's nationality, ethnicity and country of birth (broadly construed) be limited to the sub-page: Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity? has been posted here. Interested editors are invited to comment.- MrX 20:55, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

A Request for Comments is now in progress at Talk:Ayurveda concerning whether [[Category:Pseudoscience]] should be added to the article on Ayurveda. Participation in the RFC is encouraged. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

There is a disagreement at Penn and Teller: Bullshit! over whether to use quotation marks around the word "bullshit" alone. Since this article falls under this Wikiproject umbrella, you may want to weigh in on that Talk Page. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:18, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest (if such a copyvio is present).--Lucas559 (talk) 16:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Pseudoarchaeology is a fringe type of archaeology, not fringe science, as archaeology in English speaking countries is not taught as a science but as part of humanities or social sciences. I tried to change this but was reverted, and have started a discussion at Category talk:Pseudoarchaeology. Doug Weller (talk) 15:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree this is a fringe subject area but not a pseudoscience. I'm traveling and can't contribute more. Best.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC))

Why, if archaeology is not considered a science, does that imply that pseudoarchaeology is not a pseudoscience? There just isn't enough of a parallel between science and pseudoscience. Pseudoscience just isn't restricted by precise scientific boundaries, or an implied logical conclusion like this (one that would barely stand up under a formal logic anyway). Andy Dingley (talk) 17:57, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi there,

Apologies if this particular topic is outside of this project's scope, but I'm looking to get some input from scientific-minded editors who understand the need for evidence to support extraordinary claims at the World's Oldest People Project. To explain things as briefly as possible: many people who claim to be extremely old (over the age of 110) are in fact younger than they claim (see [here for more), and there are many fraudsters claiming to be older than they actually. This means that age verification (proving someone's age with documentation) is important for anyone wanting to create a list of the oldest people in the world. This is what the Gerontology Research Group (GRG) specialises in.

However, some editors want to give organisations like the GRG (widely recognised, scientific groups that specialise in this particular field) the same validity as other sources like newspapers, which potentially means that articles like List of oldest living people could be full of potential fraudsters.

If anyone is willing to voice their opinion here it would be most appreciated. Thank you -- Ollie231213 (talk) 20:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

This agecruft needs to be killed with fire. Guy (Help!) 13:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Motion: New Religious Movements, which I believe in some substantial regards may have some parallels and overlaps with the field of sekpticism. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 20:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Request for comment: Is Faith healing a form of pseudoscience and should it be labeled as such either in the article or by assignment of category pseudoscience? Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion at Talk:Faith healing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:42, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Can you show me which source says faith-healing is a pseudo-science form? Or, should we have faith? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 19:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
• Comment There are pseudoscience attempts to prove faith healing, but the practice itself is faith based as far as I'm aware. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:45, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The Bigfoot article could use a look from somebody with more experience of writing about cryptids: an enthusiastic editor has added about 80k of "Reported descriptions" to the article, using books by Bigfoot researchers to produce something that reads awkwardly like a field guide description of a real creature which has been liberally sprinkled with "supposedly" and "reportedly" to achieve "balance". I'm not sure of the best way to clean it up. There's a discussion on the talk page. --McGeddon (talk) 08:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Checkout WP:ALLEGED to see "Words that may introduce bias". Then remove any such words, such as "supposedly" and "reportedly". The add a {{Disputed-inline}} with the correct link after all the statements linking to the section. Jerod Lycett (talk) 15:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

The entire three-page section is nothing but a string of "Bigfoot is reportedly a large creature, Bigfoot supposedly smells like a skunk" quotes from researchers. It would seem unhelpfully WP:POINTy to replace every single statement with "Bigfoot is a large creature that smells like a skunk" and then inline-tag it as disputed. --McGeddon (talk) 09:00, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

If it's that bad drop {{Disputed}} instead of a bunch of inlines. If something is really egregious put an inline next to it too. Jerod Lycett (talk) 18:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

But I'm not disputing any of the claims (which are all just "someone wrote in a book that Bigfoot smelled like a skunk", which I'm sure is true). The tone just seems awkward, to have a lengthy section that reads like a description of a real creature which has had "reportedly" and "described as" hammered into every sentence as an afterthought. --McGeddon (talk) 09:03, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

This raises the question. Do you want me to truly get involved on this? I tried finding cryptid enthusiasts, but found none. Jerod Lycett (talk) 09:13, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I looked in at WikiProject Cryptozoology before I came here, but it seemed inactive; this seemed the second-best option among the talk page's Wikiproject list, given that the last 1200 edits (!) seem to have come out of books written by optimistic Bigfoot spotters. I'm not sure what the ideal way to write this kind of article would be, so would appreciate any thoughts you have on it. --McGeddon (talk) 19:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

McGeddon, I encourage you to Be bold and remove to offending materiel. You have ever right to dive in and defend this humble encyclopedia from the onslaught of that editor's assumptions and hearsay. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:49, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_October_6

The category Climate change skeptics has been proposed to be moved to "Climate change deniers." Youknowwhatimsayin (talk) 01:27, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I am asking for your participation in Talk:Brahma Kumaris#RFC for adding the word "Cult" Supdiop (T🔹C) 16:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

To save other editors a click; that RFC has since been withdrawn by the editor, who has also been blocked. --McGeddon (talk) 20:38, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

And now he's back Supdiop (T🔹C)

There is a discussion now taking place at Talk:List of pseudoscientific organizations that may be relevant to this project. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I've created a new article on the book Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand.

Input and suggestions for additional secondary sources would be appreciated on the article's talk page, at Talk:Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand.

Thank you,

— Cirt (talk) 06:01, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Nice work, @Cirt:. I have added this to the List of books about skepticism. --Gronk Oz (talk) 12:42, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks very much, most appreciated! — Cirt (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

For those who are interested, there is a proposal to move Genesis creation narrative to Genesis creation myth. See Talk:Genesis_creation_narrative#Requested_move_22_January_2016. Keahapana (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seventh-day Adventist historicist interpretations of Bible prophecy. Thanks. Regards, James(^talk/_contribs) 20:16, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

If you're looking for something skeptic-related to get you back into the swing of things in the new year, you might like to take a look at the List of books about skepticism. People have been busy adding books to the list, but quite a number of them are currently redlinks and need editors to write the article. Something to think about... --Gronk Oz (talk) 06:12, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Merged content to File_talk:WP_RationalSkepticism_Logo.PNG Kyle^(talk) 04:44, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I was clicking around and found myself on the Anti-psychiatry page and... it's a mess. I didn't know much of anything about antipsychiatry, but the blatant character attacks and POV pushing were red huge flags, so I started checking sources and none that I've checked so far have anything to do with antipsychiatry. I got the sense from the talkpage that there's a lot of poorly sourced information backing up ideas about psychiatry that stem from Scientology. Their beliefs do have a place in the article... but with proper sourcing and NPOV. There are other POVs being pushed as well. Apparently it's a very contentious topic. Now that I've read up a bit about it, it's actually quite interesting. But cleaning up the article will be a lot to tackle... so I'm posting this on the relevant wikiprojects in the hopes that others might find it interesting too and want to help. :) I've started a discussion about it at Talk:Anti-psychiatry/Archive 8#Sources. Thanks! Permstrump (talk) 19:31, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Category talk:Psychic powers in fiction is tagged as part of this wikiproject, but I'm not sure how much fictional topics have to do with scientific skepticism. Fictional works aren't necessarily claiming anything about whether or not their plot elements exist in the real world. I suppose some of them could be, but most of them probably aren't. If Psychic powers in fiction belongs to this wikiproject, then categories such as Category:Telepathy in fiction and Category:Telekinesis in fiction should also, so I'd like to know if they do or not. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? ♫ekips39 (talk)❀ 23:01, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I was WP:BOLD and removed it because it was added at the same time as bunch of the other "related" projects (including WP:Psychology, which you already removed), and I can't imagine it was ever something specifically of interest to this project. PermStrump(talk) 05:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

The article on Tyler Henry, the "Hollywood Medium" with a 2016 cable reality show, is stetching credulity with the recent (coordinated?) edits of a couple red-lined editors who are promoting his book and who have deleted the "Criticism" as well as any links to sources which cast doubt on his powers. This article deserves to be watchlisted and monitored by more users of a skeptical bent. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 14:32, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi folks! They could sure use a few eyes over at Water fluoridation. Please have a quick look at the history and please drop by Talk:Water fluoridation#April 28, 2016 to share your thoughts. Many, many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

There are lots of articles about UFO's that need attention. Some of these are Project Sign, Project Grudge, Estimate of the Situation, and many others. It would take a while to clean up all of them, so I'm hoping that people will help with cleaning the articles up, and eventually rewriting them. ThePlatypusofDoom (Talk) 12:05, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

There is a discussion currently at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scientific dissent that may be of relevance to this project. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

The article Wireless power transfer has been a battleground for years due to persistent attempts to introduce an alternate view that around 1900 Nikola Tesla transmitted wireless power around the Earth using something called a Zenneck wave. Need electronically inclined editors to take a look at the current discussion and give your opinion. Would be very helpful to have editors who would watchlist this page and participate in the future (as this debate will certainly continue). --Chetvorno^TALK 18:25, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi, posting re Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Joachim_Helbig/1. This seems to be an appropriate venue as the discussion deals with German World War II "mythology" -- a POV presentation of a military biography.

The discussion has been extensive, but with few !votes. The dialog has most recently centered on what sources should or should not be acceptable for military biographies. It can be found in section "1.6 Wrapping Up", or a via a direct link to Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Joachim_Helbig/1#Wrapping_up.

Interested editors are invited to share an opinion, or to cast an !vote. Thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:33, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

There's recently been some bowdlerizing activity in the article on the degree mill "Isles International University". A couple more disinterested people would be welcome to keep an eye on this article. -- Hoary (talk) 20:58, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

There is an RfC at Template talk:Alternative medicine sidebar concerning the use of the term pseudomedicine. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:24, 29 December 2016 (UTC)