Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Venezuela/Archive 4

@MaoGo, Jamez42, Cambalachero, Cyfraw, Kingsif, Oscar ., and Alcibiades979: (who did I miss?) starting a running list of where we need work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:36, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@MaoGo, Jamez42, Cambalachero, Cyfraw, Kingsif, Oscar ., Alcibiades979, and ZiaLater: What is going on here?

• Great Patriotic Pole (Gran Polo Patriótico Simon) was created by Rd232 in May 2012, sourced to Venezuelanalysis, used throughout Venezuelan election articles, and had that name through 11 April 2019
• In External links, it lists GranPoloPatriotico.org.ve, which is hard to access, but the latest availalble at archive.org, 25 November 2018, shows Gran Polo Patriotico There does not seem to be a naming issue.
• On 12 April, an editor with practically no editing history but demonstrating knowledge of Wikipedia

1. Moved the article to Broad Front for the Homeland,
2. based on a Telesur election article from 2018
3. then edited out of existence the Great Patriotic Pole
4. then removed Great Patriotic Pole from every most Wikipedia articles

In other words, Gran Polo Patriotico, which was decidedly a thing for Chavismo, is no longer a thing anywhere on Wikipedia. Instead of creating a new article for Maduro's new Union that has a new name, this editor completely removed the Union used by Chavez.

Why? What this means is that trying to find any old information on Chavez's Gran Patriotic Pole just won't happen-- it's gone from Wikipedia. The fact that Chavismo had a Union called Great Patriotic Pole went ... poof !

And undoing all of this will take a lot of work. What's up with this?

And I can't even get a link or ping to this editor's username to work. How can an editor make a non-linkable username? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually, did not edit it out of every article, so that what one gets now is misleading. For example, at 2012 Venezuelan presidential election#Patriotic Pole, this text is misleading because the link to GPP takes you to a coalition that did not exist when Chavez was supported by GPP.

• Chávez was supported by the Great Patriotic Pole (GPP), an electoral coalition led by the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela, PSUV).

I am thinking the move needs to be undone, but what a lot of work. If Gran Polo Patriotico became the Broad Front for the Homeland, then the article should say so and there should be a source for that. The lead would say Broad Front for the Homeland, formerly known as the Great Patriotic Pole. If they are two separate coalitions, there should be two separate articles. Instead, Great Patriotic Pole is disappearing. Articles about elections are being changed from GPP to Broad Front, when PSUV was referring to GPP in 2018. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• Example: at National Assembly. Was it not GPP then? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:26, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Woah @SandyGeorgia:, fishy stuff. So if I get it right, there was a GPP article and there is now a Simón Bolívar Broad Front for the Homeland, and everything now leads to the latter. The first one was erased. It is just a matter of renaming and linking or there some missing info? Is this (Clickable link) the user? --MaoGo (talk) 05:34, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't know; I can't sort it out. We need to hear from others. Did GPP become something else? Someone may see something differently or know something I don't know. I am tempted to un do everything, but undoing a move makes a mess, so ... beats the heck out of me. And what is with a user name that can't be pinged? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

We may write on the user talk or simply write their username here and that should work as a ping. User:SandyGeorgia. --MaoGo (talk) 06:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Great Patriotic Pole is a valid name in English Interview: The Great Patriotic Pole (GPP) - How Thousands of Movements are Constructing their Revolutionary Organisation (Venezuelanalysis). --MaoGo (talk) 06:06, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I found it in reliable sources (BBC: "designed to shore up support for Mr. Chavez" CBC: "a coalition of 17 parties formed in 2012 to support ... Chavez"); it was and is the valid name for the coalition that existed then, and during the "elections" for the constituent assembly. That Maduro has a new coalition is another story for another article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Possibly a misguided but well-intentioned user, though one who has never touched the topic before and gone to lengths to make their edits stick. Pinging User:=*= XHCN Quang Minh =*= care to explain? Kingsif (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Same thoughts. This is the case of a different translation, since if it was the reform of the coalition it would be a headline, like the PSUV was it its time or more recently the Somos Venezuela Movement. --Jamez42 (talk) 14:00, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Well, now I see what problem I was having with pinging-- that User: is part of the User name rather than the Wiki User. Very confusing user name; sorry I couldn't sort that at the end of a long day yesterday. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

So, the incorrect move cannot be undone; what next? I don't know where to get this fixed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

A deletion of the redirect, the original title, is requested in order to move back the article. I understand normally a proposal has to be done, but since there seems to be a consensus and the user is not answering, it may be in order to do it directly. --Jamez42 (talk) 14:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think we can do it, because it's a move over redirect. I put in a request. Meanwhile, the bot will keep reinstating the redirects. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I moved your request at WP:RM/TR to the "Requests to revert undiscussed moves" section. Controversial undiscussed moves placed there are usually reverted within a few hours. Station1 (talk) 16:18, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

All corrected now; we may need to keep an eye out towards helping the Editor With The Name To Long To Type set up the new coalition correctly. I am not sure there are sources for that; have not looked. Telesur provides the English name, but what is the name in Spanish, and have RELIABLE sources mentioned it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for all of this, I was thinking that the title of the article is not the correct English translation.=*= XHCN Quang Minh =*= (talk) 11:48, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I thought that Gran Polo Patriótico translated to Broad Front for the Homeland--=*= XHCN Quang Minh =*= (talk) 02:55, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

I considered teleSUR as an official outlet of the Venezuelan Government.--=*= XHCN Quang Minh =*= (talk) 02:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Hugo Carvajal arrested in Spain; waiting for a good source to add to 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis, International sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis, and his article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Here we go: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• Castellanos, Silvio; Miguel Gutierrez and Andy Sullivan (12 April 2019). "Ex-Venezuelan intelligence chief arrested on U.S. drug trafficking warrant". Reuters. Retrieved 12 April 2019.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

The substantial reference to Goethe in the en.wikipedia.org article on the "Flag of Venezuela" seems totally unsubstantiated. A single footnote after the Goethe quote references an unrelated pamphlet on Colombian naval history. I have checked multiple biographies of the flag's designer, General Francisco de Miranda, and none of these biographies (by William Spence Robertson, Karen Racine, Philip John Sherian, and Sumner Welles) mention that Miranda ever met Goethe. German-language resources, including Goethe's collected writings, his Farbenlehre, and the Geothe Institut's office in Caracas, also make no mention of Goethe having ever met Miranda. Significantly, neither the Spanish nor the German versions of this wikipedia article on Venezuela's flag mention Goethe. This seems to be a spurious meme in English-language social media. Goethe's involvement with the creation of the Venezuelan flag makes an entertaining story, but seems to be no more than an urban legend. (Librarian at San Francisco Public Library) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.74.232 (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

One would have to obtain that letter to Symeon Vorontsov. I do not know how to look for this kind of documents.--MaoGo (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I just took a look a the source in the article (it was a dead link I just fixed it). The information comes from a journal of the armed forces of Colombia and the author is apparently Ricardo Silva Romero. Here is more information: Goethe and Miranda met on winter 1785 in Weimar, Miranda talks about it in a letter to a "count Woronzoff" in 1792. --MaoGo (talk) 19:45, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

A letter to Woronzoff, minister of Catherine II, dated 30 August 1792, seems to have existed as referenced in this text : --MaoGo (talk) 20:28, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Crisis in Venezuela has no section on political detentions. Washington Post has a piece today (which I cannot link to because of damn paywall). Is anyone interested in setting up a section at the Crisis article? I can access that article later at my library, but not now ... title is "Political detentions rising in Venezuela". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I csn suggest the section to be called "arbitrary detentions", so the scope is broader and to be careful of NPOV. However, I think the definition that NGOs use for "political prisoner" should be included. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Saw this after I started the section, called it just "detentions" to keep it even broader, and we need to expand there to include prison conditions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:35, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Been typing all day; could someone add Roberto Marrero to the list of political prisoners at Human rights in Venezuela? The WAPO source at Crisis in Venezuela can be used. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

 Done! --Jamez42 (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

@MaoGo: lots of material here from Public Radio International. (Every time one of these comes up, I get to remind of the folly of merging away the Guaido challenge :) :) But it was not worth the disagreement at that time, so away it went. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@MaoGo: you have an interest in media, would you be interested in starting El Pitazo, since they won the 2019 Ortega y Gasset Awards for best coverage ? Or anyone else ? (El Pais The report that won UTexas- a blog, but affiliated with University El Nacional Tal Cual) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm terrible sorry for meddling, but now that it has been mentioned I'd like to suggest the same about VPItv, I read that they were awarded the Excellence Award in Journalism in Washington this year. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:48, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Jamez, that's not meddling, that's helping us get organized ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:15, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: sorry I've been busy. I saw El Pitazo article, nice one. I do not want to start any article I won't be able to follow correctly. I'll pass on El Pitazo for the moment. If you want a list of articles that we would like to see, I give you a list:

• El Pitazo
• Espacio Público
• SNTP (Venezuela) [fr]
• IPYS Venezuela
• VPITv

Anything else? --MaoGo (talk) 12:37, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Got it ... I may not have time in the coming weeks, either; maybe we can interest Kingsif? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Did someone say media? I might be able to start some of those. Kingsif (talk) 13:25, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest VIVOplay, Caraota Digital and El Estímulo. Along with Efecto Cocuyo and El Pitazo, they're among the prominent independent outlets that have surfaced after the increasing censorship in television, and the former two have also given a lot of coverage to daily events, although I'm not sure if any of those have received awards and I'm concerned there might be notability objections. EVTV Miami is also a recognized outlet of the diaspora. Armando.info is the leading investigative journalist group that publishes about corruption in the country; like it is explained in the CLAP article, the government even forbid them to publish further about the food corruption network. Maduradas is quite popular too, but I'd describe it as sensasionalist. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:00, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Full support to Efecto Cocuyo, they are doing an amazing work too. --MaoGo (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Maduradas is one that my friends have deemed too sketchy to download the app for, and it likes to bring up spammy pop-ups, which is already a question; its over-use of ALLCAPS and exclamation points also makes it seem like a less reliable source; I've used one article from it for the El Pitazo page, because it used info from El Pitazo. Kingsif (talk) 19:14, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Maduradas often publishes reliable news, their problem is mostly their sensationalist tone (precisely the ALLCAPS, material for clickbait) and gossips (which are usually true, but gossips nonetheless). Their Alexa rank is 250 in Venezuela. Oddly enough, there's a pro-government counterpart whose editorial line is almost identical to Maduradas', Lechuginos. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Speaking of which, a discussion could be started to create a list of sources that could be used for Venezuelan articles depending on their reliability. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Since I already said "no TeleSUR" on my user page, I added a list of sources. Would be great to have discussion on those mentioned. Kingsif (talk) 15:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

The problem with some of those sources is their notability. A Reuters piece is more important than a Caracas Chronicles one (I do not know if a blog should be cited). A ranking of what we should use first and what we should use as last resorts would be better. --MaoGo (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Sourcing depends on text being cited; there are times I will use El Pitazo or La Patilla and there are times I will not. Telesur is deprecated on Wikipedia: it is no longer a matter of choice. We should always prefer English-language sources when/if they are available, otherwise use the highest quality available in Spanish. That means I go first for El Nacional, if they have the info, and then on to others. Not because El Nacional is a better source, but because those "not in the know" perceive it to be a better source. Correo del Orinoco and Venezuelanalysis are both parrots of state propaganda. I don't think we should ever use maduradas. In Venezuelan articles, we need to be MUCH more careful about what sources are used in BLPs. Caracas Chronicles is a blog; until they clean up their act, they are going to be about as reliable as Venezuelanalysis.com, and under their new editor, it does not appear they are going to be making the necessary changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:43, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

It is my understanding that reliability what's evaluated about sources rather than notability. My top choices are Efecto Cocuyo, El Estímulo, El Pitazo, Prodavinci, Tal Cual, Runrunes, VIVOplay, VPItv; these last two are helpful mostly with live coverage. The main reason why I recommend these it's because long lasting and trustworthy newspapers, such as El Universal and El Nacional, have been vilified by the government. By using these new and independent sources there aren't many strong arguments to refute that they are reliable sources. --Jamez42 (talk) 22:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

New sanctions due out today will keep me busy; is anyone able to update 2019 Venezuelan protests? There are several sources on talk. Saludos, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:06, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

The article of Venezuelan crisis is going out of the main news. Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#Ongoing_removal_2019_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis. --MaoGo (talk) 14:50, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: HispanTV SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

• U.S. intervention in Venezuela SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:14, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• Article somewhat cleaned up, still needs attention. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Work in progres:

Media analysis at

• User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox2

for the

• Talk:2019 Venezuela uprising#Requested move 1 May 2019

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:51, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: woah good idea. It is somewhat ridiculous that we have come to this. Do you want some French sources? Or only update on English sources? --MaoGo (talk) 12:43, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

The Economist uses uprising: A failed uprising against Nicolás Maduro--MaoGo (talk) 12:54, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, some French sources (just one or two very high quality) would be good. And I haven't had time to look up the highest quality sources from Spain (El Pais, ABC, etc). And Wall Street Journal. If anyone has time to make sure I have no mistakes in there, that would be good; I am out of time this morning. Policy-based reasoning should drive naming decisions, not counting of votes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I tried to look at El País and their editor seems to avoid both words, at least I couldn't find anything in the main articles. --MaoGo (talk) 13:56, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! If you find any high quality, relevant source you could put it at the talk page of my sandbox; people are really starting to dredge up second-tier reliable sources, and I'd rather focus on very high quality. The chart is already chunked up by sources I would never choose anyway.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:05, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Spanish articles.

While we're at it, I'll dump some sources from Spain here:

• El Mundo, alzamiento and levantamiento
• ABC, levantamiento and its verbs, uses "coup" in a quote of Maduro's ambassador in Spain. The outlet has a whole gallery titled Las imágenes del levantamiento.
• La Vanguardia, levantamiento
• 20 minutos has a whole category called Levantamiento contra Maduro, almost the exact name of the article in the Spanish Wikipedia.
• El Confidencial, levantamiento
• La Razón, levantamiento, uses revuelta in the title.

I'll also mention Infobae, from Argentina, which uses levantamiento and quotes Maduro saying "coup". --Jamez42 (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Got connected, will add, thank you @MaoGo and Jamez42: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Reportando ! Nos organizemos ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Go ahead and edit here if you like User:ZiaLater/sandbox.----ZiaLater (talk) 13:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

COOL BEANS ... title will be ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:52, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Not sure. Infobox title is just a placeholder.----ZiaLater (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Uprising. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I am not able to access NetBlocks, can you? --MaoGo (talk) 13:52, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@MaoGo: NetBlocks is down for me too.----ZiaLater (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I have Instagram up but nothing is clear yet ... I think your article can go out, though ... just to gloat at the ITN people, who took us off the news prematurely :) :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Just for some humor:

• Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#Ongoing: 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis ROFL !!!
  • And looking more closely at the article, it appears to be more stagecraft and hyperbole. Guaido standing on the edge of some highway with a disgraced general bitching about Maduro, is that a coup? Sounds more like business as usual. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Now there's an educated summary of the situation :) :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, beefing up an explanation of the significance of La Carlota, and Lopez being en la calle might help the uninformed :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Talk:2019 Venezuela uprising#Requested move 1 May 2019 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:42, 2 May 2019 (UTC)