Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 133

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Reliability of Siliconera

Hello fellow gamers! I've noticed that the website "Siliconera" has been used in a source for several articles. I myself recently used it in Atelier Lydie & Suelle: Alchemists of the Mysterious Painting. It looks like a reliable source, but do any of you have a reason to contradict that? It appears to be not entirely correct in some articles, so I was just wondering if any of you have heard of any incidents regarding reliability of the website. If you have an answer, please leave it on my talk page. Thanks! VTnav (talk) 04:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

@VTnav:I see no reason why it wouldn't be reliable, in most cases. They are listed on WP:VG/S.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 07:40, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
@Zxcvbnm:Okay, thanks a bunch! VTnav (talk) 07:49, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
SiliconEra has been discussed a whopping seven times, and the most recent time it was considered unanimously reliable. ~Mable (chat) 08:29, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
  • They are frequently cited by other RSs, and have staff with experience writing for other sites (off the top of my head, Chris Priestman, who has written for at least Killscreen, Pocketgamer and The Guardian, and Jenni Lada, who has written for TechnologyTell).--IDVtalk 08:35, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Ike Sato too, a veteran of GameSpot. I consider Siliconera to be a reliable source for both original news (interviews and other things) and translations, although Gematsu often has the more comprehensive and complete versions of any shared translations. I do prefer it for Japanese titles over Western releases, as Western releases are better covered by other sites and journals. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
      • SiliconEra may be "slightly more reliable" than Gematsu, which is technically more of a "blog" by an expert journalist. But both are very good sources in general. ~Mable (chat) 09:25, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
  • To add to Siliconera's reliability, they do tend to fill a niche of Western-centric coverage of the Japanese games market even smaller titles. --MASEM (t) 13:18, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Just another person voicing my support for Siliconera, for many of the same reasons already listed above. And yes, as Masem suggests, it is a very good source for Japanese-only games, or "Japanese-games-not-released-in-English-yet". Years in the past, the consensus was to only use it in games like that, and in that time, I used it to start up a ton of Japanese game articles in their earlier stages of development, prior to their English release. While its not limited to that use anymore, its certainly invaluable in those scenarios. Sergecross73 msg me 13:42, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I think you got your answer, but I'd be careful with some of the other advice here... A source is made "reliable" by its reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, which almost always stems from editorial chain and quality review. Being cited for a scoop, having editors who once worked reputable publications, being the best publication in a niche field are all useful traits, but not necessarily an indicator of reputation for fact-checking or accuracy.
A Times reporter's hobby blog is not reliable by virtue of the individual's past—it's completely reliant on the editorial chain to validate the author's work. The "reliability" is at the publication (not author) level. And citing another source's scoop, as a hat tip or simply to ward off plagiarism, is hardly an endorsement of quality—especially given the rather low standards of press release churnalism in video game journalism. A passerby looks at the last WP:VG/S discussion mentioned above and sees what looks like a popularity contest rather than an assessment of pedigree. The basis of "reliability" discussions should be the actual oversight chain. czar 04:29, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Member List?

Hello! I've been editing video game articles for a while now, and have considered myself a member of the wikiproject (I have the userbox and the works) but I realized I hadn't added my name to a member list. Is there one? I looked all around the WikiProject: Video Games Portal, but I couldn't find one. Thanks for your help! VTnav (talk) 22:41, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses! VTnav (talk) 22:56, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

What about Nathan Bitner?

Should Nathan Bitner get his own article he did create Fearless Photog and also contributed to making the [[Halo games. Dwanyewest (talk) 21:57, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Are there any reliable sources that cover him? JOEBRO64 22:00, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

List of Mass Effect characters

this has got to be a record for removal of content. It could really stand to have someone go over it who is familiar with the content and sourcing. Jclemens (talk) 22:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Don't see anything to review, @Izno and Czar are highly experienced editors who are well versed in content and sourcing. That list needed a pruning badly, it was a massive collection of in-universe fan cruft. -- ferret (talk) 22:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
The gift that keeps on giving... this was a public edit czar 22:43, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Agree with the trim, though I think there were a few of the early names I would have kept (Ashley for example) after trimming significantly. Character lists are havens for getting around concise plots and when no sources are presented, they should be massively trimmed down. There are a few things I'd recover that are appropriate for brief intro of setting. --MASEM (t) 23:20, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
To follow up, I found Polygon had a great complete "setting of ME" (released just before Andromeda), so I've at least seeded a Setting section that should help with the rest of the characters there. --MASEM (t) 00:01, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
(ec) Oh, don't get me wrong: there was plenty of bloat that needed trimming... but certain key characters, like Ashley, are missing entirely. Not even a listing for several of the characters, and while I haven't done any amount of looking (I just ran across the article trying to actually use it to look up the name of the Israeli-ish merc, which I couldn't remember) I'm sure there are sources for many, if not most, of the Mass Effect companions. There seems to be a growing dearth of editors who understand 'unsourced' != 'unsourceable' and "probably OK but unsourced" is a better state of affairs than "trimmed to the bone such that nothing unsourced remains". It's unfortunate that so few editors are actually willing to improve content by fixing fixable problems. Jclemens (talk) 00:04, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Sometimes TNT on something so massive it's nearly unfixable is better. Individual characters can always be added back by any editor (Hopefully with proper sourcing and conciseness), but it's nearly impossible to get a group of editors to work on trimming, and this list was far too large for any editor to really "fix" in my opinion. I've voted keep on several list AFDs that I kind of regret, as all the editors who were claiming they'd work on cleanup or trim never did. -- ferret (talk) 00:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
But *that* wasn't TNT, which I believe to be inappropriate in this case, but doing Mohs surgery with a chainsaw: what's kept and what's gone is without internal consistency, and doesn't give close to an encyclopedic overivew of the characters. Keeping something along the lines of "Ashley (whatever her last name was) is a human soldier encountered early in the first Mass Effect game. She is characterized as religious and xenophobic, and is a potential romantic interest for a male protagonist." is pretty hard to argue against, I would think. Jclemens (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

"probably OK but unsourced" is a better state of affairs than "trimmed to the bone such that nothing unsourced remains"
— Jclemens

All content must be verifiable.
— Wikipedia:Verifiability

That opinion on verifiability is not aligned with Wikipedia policy or widespread consensus... A general purpose encyclopedia is, by design, not suited for looking up lore from a video game—and it's not like there aren't other encyclopedias that fit that niche. But even what remains in the list in its current state (or the short one-sentence character summaries you're after) should have been first incubated at Mass Effect#Characters (which is equally disastrous) and only split summary style when warranted by sourcing. czar 00:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

How about a longer quote: "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed." Bold emphasis mine.
Now, the nitty-gritty: Verifiable != verified != failed verification. Just because something isn't currently sourced doesn't mean it fails V. It can't fail V until and unless someone tries to source it in good faith and fails. Note that simply saying "that's unsourced!" isn't a challenge; a challenge specifically requires belief that the fact in question is wrong (or BLP, but that's not relevant here). The issue I have is editors who are willing to trim without any attempt to source seemingly appropriate statements: that is just as wrong and just as contrary to Wikipedia policies--WP:SOFIXIT is a guideline, just like WP:N is. Jclemens (talk) 01:01, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

simply saying "that's unsourced!" isn't a challenge; a challenge specifically requires belief that the fact in question is wrong

Where are you getting this? All non-obvious claims (e.g., everything deleted in the original diff) are "likely to be challenged"—as they're otherwise based on thin air—and the burden of preempting that challenge is on the editor who adds the content. So even under the ideology that claims need explicit belief-challenge, the act of removing unsourced content is exactly that. (Not to mention that it's foolhardy—and against basic media literacy—to believe any claim made without reliable backing, especially on the Internet nevertheless Wikipedia.) "SOFIXIT" is a pejorative, not a guideline—the guideline is "be bold", meaning that re: unsourced content, one user's TNT is worth as much as another's slogging through reams of in-universe tone to salvage content (perhaps at best) fit for Wikia. But on a basic level, "SOFIXIT" certainly doesn't entitle any editor to another's time. Statements like

The issue I have is editors who are willing to trim without any attempt to source seemingly appropriate statements: that is just as wrong and just as contrary to Wikipedia policies

have no basis in WP policy, guideline, or consensus. czar 03:00, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
If challenging wasn't a part of verifiability, then the text I bolded above is superfluous and irrelevant. So, please, be WP:BOLD and remove that clause from policy, see how long that takes to get reverted.
If no editor has the right to another's time, a sentiment with which I agree, then nominating for deletion something that can be fixed through regular editing, but which the nominating editor does not prefer to perform him or herself, is itself improper: using up someone else's time goes both ways. Jclemens (talk) 03:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Actually, one more thing: Unsourced statements made in an article should be fairly easy to triage for anyone familiar with the topic. I think your parenthetical characterization above is incompatible with WP:AGF, in that it appears to posit editors--e.g. of List of Mass Effect characters--as fundamentally incapable of correctly recalling basic plot elements, as I did above. Let's not forget that much of what was deleted from that article was WP:BLUE material. Jclemens (talk) 03:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This article had suffered quite long enough. If you peruse its history, you'll find that for five years there was 200kb of nearly, in toto, unsourced crud (and more if you count all of the unnecessary spinoff articles). We could just as easily walked it over to WP:AFD where AFD would either have resulted in consensus for deletion... or the exact same cuts I made (it's plausible a merge could have been argued, but all of these results are more destructive than your preferred result). I am not a fan of AFD because it does tend more toward deletion of content history (and the history is the important part) rather than merges or redirects, so I made the cuts myself.
As for the policy quotation, no one part of the policy can be read in isolation; nor, rather, can that single policy be read out of context with its cohorts. WP:NOTPLOT and WP:NPOV (especially WP:WEIGHT) are rather relevant. (WP:SELFPUB has not a few number of caveats, to boot.)
To directly answer your original post: We have precious few editors (in general, not specific to video games!) who a) are domain experts, b) understand our content policies and guidelines, c) have the time to edit articles on Wikipedia, d) take the time to edit articles on Wikipedia, and e) would have edited that specific article. No-one in that discussion, nor is there likely ever to have been such a person in recent times, raised their hand and said, "I am all five".
I am sympathetic to readers interested in fictional content (really, I am--I started wiki editing on one of the largest and most-visited, fiction wikis, as measured by Alexa at the time), but I also understand the three options of the post-2006-2008 war on fiction: source it, delete it from the article but not the history (either via hacksaw or merge/redirect--making it visible to anyone who wants to take the time and energy to make it Good), or delete it permanently (save to administrators).
Lastly, the so-far implicit comment, somewhat preemptively: This content is all just about guaranteed to be present elsewhere, presented in exactly the same way if not even greater detail, and probably freely licensed to boot, in case you should want to add any content you are unable to identify solely in the article's history. --Izno (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Jill Valentine at peer review

Jill Valentine received seven supports and two opposes at its first FAC, and nine supports and three opposes at its second FAC, though I was almost finished addressing the concerns of one opposer when the second nomination was closed abruptly today. I nominated the article for peer review prior to the original nomination, and have been advised to do so again prior to renominating it for FAC; I intend to renominate it in a couple months once I've finished working on a couple other projects. While there was arguably no consensus to promote the article at FAC, there was also no consensus that the concerns of the remaining people opposing was valid. Accordingly, at this stage, having already addressed the overwhelming majority of the issues raised at the last FAC, I have no plans to make major changes to the article before renominating it, though obviously this will change if a consensus is reached at peer review that more work needs to be done. All comments on the peer review are welcome; even if your only comment is that you don't think any further work needs to be done, that information is helpful to know. I will happily review any video game related PR, GA, or FAC in return for your comments at the new peer review: Wikipedia:Peer review/Jill Valentine/archive2. Freikorp (talk) 09:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Listing Cloud Strife and Aerith Gainsborough at the Star-crossed article

Hi, all. Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Star-crossed#TheJaff's repeated deletion of Cloud/Aerith. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (16 September to 22 September)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
  • Articles moved out of draft space: City of Brass (video game), Eternal (card game), The Final Station, Wipeout Omega Collection
  • Articles deleted: Almost Hero, Behind the Voice Actor Awards, Brutal.io, Clover Field (character), Draft:Sanicball, Draft:Wings.io, List of download-only PlayStation 4 games (J–R), List of download-only PlayStation 4 games (S–Z), PopWrapped
  • New categories: Category:Video games based on Disney animated films

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Salavat (talk) 07:30, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

  • PSA: Please move articles to their proper titles before nominating them for deletion. This puts the page history in the right location if or when it needs to be referenced in the future, e.g., if the article is recreated czar 05:28, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Coin945, you really gotta slow down again - you're really scraping the very bottom of the barrel with some of these articles you're creating. They're extremely short and devoid of hardly any content at all. Icarus: Sanctuary of the Gods is a mere 6 sentences (3 unsourced) streched out across 3 sections. Riddler's Den, is in a similar state. Articles like this aren't helping anyone. Sergecross73 msg me 12:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Whoa there. I disagree. Creating subs (even substubs) with one or two lines and a handful of sigcov in RSes is not only constructive, it is desirable. I encourage Coin945 to continue to do that. I do it too -- I have created many substubs in fact! A little is better than nothing (as long as it's not promotional and it has a few sources). Sometimes a small article is more conducive to iterative improvements than a redlink. Take the first step and others will follow. WP:PUTEFFORT. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 20:46, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
      • Looking at an article like Icarus: Sanctuary of the Gods, I agree with Sergecross that Coin could put a bit more effort into such articles. I think this is a big difference in editing philosophy, possibly valuing coverage over overall quality? There are no real rules against this behavior as long as you put in two or more good sources, but it's something worth thinking about. ~Mable (chat) 09:59, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
        • Seems like a philosophy of "if I make these stubs it will be easier for people to expand". Alhough, I think it's wrong headed, specifically because the games are so obscure that it's unlikely most of the articles will be significantly expanded. It's akin to wanting to make Wikipedia into a WP:DIRECTORY and is the wrong approach to take, people should be trying to add value rather than just cataloguing everything. Stuff like Mobygames will always be a better catalog than Wikipedia.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 06:11, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
          • It bothers me in particular because I dislike expanding article compared to starting an article from scratch. Stubs like these would actively deter me from writing articles ^_^; ~Mable (chat) 09:09, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 HD merge discussion

Hello. I'm looking for more input here, about the article Sonic the Hedgehog 2 HD. Thanks! Sergecross73 msg me 18:41, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Quick opinion needed - potential WP:CIRC issue

I have been working a bit at improving the loot box article, so when I saw this article on the history of microtransactions in VGs from USGamer I was initially thrilled. However, I'm getting a feel that the Loot Box section of that article might have borrowed concepts (not verbatim text) from our loot box article, only because the narrative and list of games mentioned is practically the same. USgamer is a RS, Williams is a key editor there, and the loot box situation is limited to a small number of very visible games (eg that article conforms to other previous sources as to origins), so I might be seeing something that really isn't a problem. Just would like a quick check before adding. (Though I am off to Video game monetization to use that there) --MASEM (t) 17:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Tread lightly. Most games history pieces I've seen recently—anything that requires long-term analysis—appear to crib liberally from Wikipedia, not to mention that recent Rignall listicle. This said, we supposedly trust USgamer's editorial chain to catch and correct errors. But I think your hunch is right:

... the first purchasable game to feature loot boxes was Mass Effect 3, which launched in March 2012 with a variety of "packs" in its multiplayer mode. This was followed in August 2013 by Counter-Strike: Global Offensive adding "weapon cases" in an update. In October 2013, Battlefield 4 launched with "battlepacks", though they did not become purchasable until May 2014 and never granted duplicate items. Today, loot boxes are found in many commercially successful games, such as Overwatch, Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare, Halo 5: Guardians, Battlefield 1, Paragon, Gears of War 4, and FIFA 17.
— Loot box

Mass Effect 3's Galaxy at War multiplayer launched with purchasable equipment packs. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive added weapon cases in 2013, requiring an additional key to unlock. (PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds toyed with a similar system.) Battlefield 4 launched with Battlepacks, adding real-money purchases in 2014. Releases from 2016 were riddled with loot boxes: Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare has supply drops and zombie crates, Halo 5: Guardians has REQ Packs, Battlefield 1 has Battlepacks, and Gears of War 4 has Gear Packs.
— USgamer

Perhaps can't avoid the first half as basic chronology, but the last sentence has some uncannily coincidental ordering—it's not like it even preserves order of release (also consider that Halo 5 is not even 2016). If the tables were turned, I would encourage the WP editor to at least change the order to avoid the appearance of close paraphrasing. But unless someone does a deeper dive, paraphrasing is more an issue of plagiarism (ethics) than unreliability. I wouldn't replace old refs with this piece, but if the author makes new claims useful to your article, I don't think it has reached the point that the source is untouchable. czar 20:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
That was my gut. All the other sections in that article point to other RSes so when I expanded the video game monetization article, I included those too. But the loot box section was devoid of such, and the ordering of games was far too uncanny. Fortunately, there's not much that I need from that beyond the statement that Overwatch popularized the current loot box glut. --MASEM (t) 20:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

What about Talisman:Digital Edition?

I think that video games as Talisman:Digital Edition who represents traditional board games should have an article. It represents the Dungeon and Dragons typical structure and many people around the globe still enjoy this gender of video games and board games.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SplitShadow (talk • contribs) 12:29, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Classic Home Video Games 1972-1984: reliable source?

What is the position of WP:VG on the book Classic Home Video Games 1972-1984, by Brett Weiss? A quick Google search indicates it's already used in quite a few articles. Nevertheless, as far as I can tell, there's never been an explicit judgment made on it one way or another. This book is the only substantial coverage that exists for a whole spate of older games, so it would be useful. Phediuk (talk) 23:06, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

McFarland & Company is a reputable publisher, so the book is assumed to have received baseline editing. For those interested, the title should be available through Wikipedia:McFarland. czar 23:47, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Agree with Czar that it's a real book published through a real publisher, so it's likely pretty good as a source. General caveat for this era of gaming is that the "history" aspects of any book are likely to be suspect regardless of publisher, so comparing multiple sources is usually needed; that said, this appears to be more of a discusion on individual games instead of the industry as a whole, in which case it should be just fine on its own. I've applied for access through the link Czar posted. I'm likely the most active editor in the <1975 video game space, though I've never read this book; I'm excited- pre-1972 is covered by other books more or less, but works covering 1972-1980 mostly focus on arcade games, so that's what I've been doing. Wish this did computer games too, but console fills in a good gap by itself and lots of stuff got ported all over the place. --PresN 02:56, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (19 September to 29 September)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
  • Articles moved into draft space: Draft:Block City Wars
  • Articles moved out of draft space: Tap Tap Glee (PROD)
  • Articles redirected: Cyberia 2: Resurrection
  • Articles deleted: Darkestville Castle, List of fictional video game designers, Life of Boris, List of ID@Xbox games, MrBossFTW, Nintendo presents: New Style Boutique 3 – Styling Star
  • New categories: Category:Xenoblade Chronicles

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Salavat (talk) 07:08, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Super Mario Bros. draft

Hi everyone, I've recently been working on a draft to improve the Super Mario Bros. page at User:TheJoebro64/drafts/SMB. I was wondering if anyone was willing to assist? I'm probably going to need a bit of help writing the reception section and copyediting. JOEBRO64 20:05, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Wasn't the article a GA until recently? Does it really need a complete reworking like this? Sergecross73 msg me 21:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
And even if it did, is there any reason why you can't just edit the mainspace article piece by piece over time? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:37, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The reason I'm completely re-writing it from the ground up is because the article was a GA from 2007 until this year (when I removed it per consensus at a GAR). The current version of the article is a complete mess -- it's way too detailed, poorly written (just look at the music section, for example), and unreliably sourced (sources like multiple "TheMushroomKingdom" refs and a Wordpress blog). The reason I'm re-writing it from scratch is because I find it easier than editing in mainspace (it's how I got Sonic Colors and Batman: A Death in the Family to much better-looking articles) JOEBRO64 21:44, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough I suppose, the article is badly written for how well known the game is. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:38, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I didn't know TMK was no longer considered reliable. AFAIR it was situational (okay for facts but does not establish notability). Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 23:57, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
@Salvidrim!: Got bumped in May: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources/Archive 17#TheMushroomKingdom --PresN 01:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

2017-18 Dota Pro Circuit template up for deletion

Thought I'd give WT:VG a notice for a relevant TfD. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die

Does anyone have a copy of this book? I'd like to know what it says about Super Mario Bros., since I'd like to add its commentary to my current draft's reception (see my above discussion). JOEBRO64 20:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Here you go. CurlyWi (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! JOEBRO64 21:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Notability question

Hi everyone,

Does a listicle like List of cultural references to Game Grumps need a third-party source that mention these cultural references, or can the article point to the cultural references itself? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 06:48, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:IPCEXAMPLES, each reference has to be pointed out by multiple third party sources. "Unremarkable mentions" are discouraged, so if it's just someone's cameo name or picture, that isn't really a notable thing. Pretty much the entire article is filled with small cameo appearances in various media, which means it's likely not an encyclopedic list.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 09:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I really can't believe that the list itself is notable. This looks like the kind of junk that wouldn't last at the parent article, let alone on its own. Strongly support merger/deletion. Sergecross73 msg me 12:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
There is zero reason to have that list as a separate article. It needs to be post-haste merged back into the main Game Grumps page (which is nowhere close to a critical size), and trimmed per WP:TRIVIA (where only third-party RSes discuss the connection). --MASEM (t) 14:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't see this as notable at all. The lack of sources only reinforces this. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Compilations

Did we ever get a consensus on whether or not the "platforms" field in the video game infobox should include appearances in compilations?--Martin IIIa (talk) 20:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

I think the answer be "No" if it's emulation (which it is in most compilations), and "Yes" if it's a proper port. TarkusABtalk 20:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
This. The same guidelines we use for standalone releases should also apply to appearances in compilations. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Cool. Thanks, guys.--Martin IIIa (talk) 15:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (29 September to 6 October)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
  • Articles moved into draft space: Draft:Chris Niosi
  • Articles redirected: A2 Racer
  • Articles deleted: Comic Con Baltics, Draft:Anti Gravity Game Studios, Draft:CocoeBiz, Nazih Fares, Petscop, Quetzal: match three, let the prizes come to me, Tap Tap Glee
  • New categories: Category:Japanese video game businesspeople, Category:NiGHTS (CfD), Category:Video game businesspeople by nationality

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Salavat (talk) 07:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Publisher Template

Hello everyone. While perusing Wikipedia, I realized something that made no sense to me; the utter lack of a video game publisher template. I realized that "some" publishers were listed on the "Major information technology companies" template, but that also never made sense to me. For one, video game companies aren't information technology companies. Secondly, the template's setup and methodology would exclude that vast majority of publishers. Thirdly, the template is already unwieldy and very big. So, I figured it would make sense to make a better, tighter, cleaner alternate and remove the video game companies from the information technology template, as I feel they were just stuck on their because there was no other place to put them. I already have a working draft template here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rogue_Commander/sandbox. I would appreciate some critique and feedback from other members of the video game wiki project before making any unilateral changes.Rogue Commander (talk) 22:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

  • What is your criteria for classifying them as big/medium/small publisher size? Without objective criteria, there will be endless arguments. (Is Sega large or medium? Is Atlus small or medium? Etc etc) Sergecross73 msg me 23:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't think we should do this either, but hypothetically we could only include publishers that have more than one game that sold more than a million copies or something. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 06:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Without reliable sources classifying publishers in some way, it would end up being OR. Even criteria like the number of sold copies is unrepresentative. For example, Zynga has sold 0 copies, because all games are mobile F2Ps. Or a niche publisher who sells 100k copies for 80$ is not the same as casual publisher who sells 1M copies for 3$ or something. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 11:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
What about companies that are developers and publishers? Or companies that used to be developers but are now only publishers; and vice versa? - X201 (talk) 07:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry I was late to respond to this. For some reason Wikipedia sent me no notifications regarding this page, even though I was watching it. I looked at two possible criteria for this template: Criteria one, was to look at applicable revenues of the companies involved, Criteria two was to look at number of listed personnel cut the numbers off at certain points. The problem with both criteria is that the company pages of many of these publishers lack either one or both of these numbers. So I had to come up with a hybrid system to account for his. Platform owners are just that: platform owners who also publish games. Of course all three console makers are included. Valve and CDProjekt are also included because they own the largest independent game retail platforms on the PC. I avoided publisher specific platforms, like Origin, and focused on general storefronts in order to keep this section from including any company that bothers to create one and focus on those who give platforms all other game companies. For former publishers, I focused on only on those companies that were major publishers that either went completely defunct, like Midway and THQ, simply left the video game business, like Majesco, or who merged with/were acquired by another company and ceased to exist entirely, like Eidos. Companies that had an equal partner merger are not counted separately, like Square Enix. Companies that got bought out by another publisher, but still exist, only allowing their new parent to publish for them, are also not included (think Atlus). For the Small publishers, I focused on the following: companies that primarily only self publish, or publish themselves and maybe a few others; or companies that publish in their home market but maybe published by others in foreign markets; and (this overlaps with the other two company criteria for his section) independent publishers with less than 1000 personnel listed on their company pages, regardless of where they publish. For Midsize publishers, I focused on independent publishers that had at least 1000 personnel, but less than 5000 and/or had less than $1 billion in FY2014/15 applicable revenues (the latter is the methodology used to include a video game company on the major info companies template). For major publishers, I focused on independents that had: a)At least 5000 personnel employed, and/or b)companies that had at least $1 billion in FY2014/15 applicable revenues.Rogue Commander (talk) 02:50, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Still not sold on this. You've created no hard restriction for small publishers, so that list will become unwieldy quick. Even if you limit the list to midsize and up, people will bitch and moan aaaaalll daaay about how publishers be categorized, the definitions of those categories, and which publishers to include. Also, who are we to decide what defines a major publisher vs mid-size vs small. The methodology should be based off reliable sources, not Template:Major information technology companies. TarkusABtalk 11:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Do you have any suggestions? There aren't that many publishers that fit into this criteria, especially the upper ones. That's why we are here, to hash out one. The Major information technology companies template obviously had some kind of discussion to hash out their methodology, and that probably required a lot of "bitching and moaning". I wasn't actually basing it off that template, per se, but I considered US$1 billion a reasonable cutoff since so few game publishers reach that milestone. Its not like there are any hard definitions regarding AAA and AA publishers, its more of an informal general perception; this criteria actually lines up with that general perception fairly well, so people complaining about the placement of the companies should be minimal. If you want an objective criteria, the closest you will get is the "Major publishers" list on the game publishers Wikipedia page, but that just list the largest companies by their revenue in the billions of Euros. At least this criteria is based on something tangible that we can calculate and measure and once its set, it will be there and no one can just go "but I think this" without having a discussion or risk getting their edits reverted. As for the smaller publishers, a minimal number of, say, employees, like no less than 10, should take care of smaller indies that just so happen to self publish. At 15 people, Devolver Digital would probably be the smallest company to hit that list. This list encompasses all the big names people would be likely to think of when it comes to "game publishers" and then some. The chances of anyone actually adding more to this list are minimal.Rogue Commander (talk) 12:14, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
The problems are two-fold - 1) I share TarkusAB's concerns - the standards for classificaiton are rather arbitrary will lead to all sorts of arguments and 2) even if they were tightened up, its not intuitive, and a template is not a good format for something that isn't intuitive. This sort of thing could (in theory, hypothetically) work well as a list or article, because you could include prose explaining these sorts of detailed classification criteria. But there's no room for that in a template. Because there's no where to explain all that, you're still gonna have the same sort of issues occurring all the time (Switching Sega between medium and large, adding 3 person dev teams on, etc etc.) It's something you learn while spending a lot of time editing Wikipedia - if its not a concrete, black and white type situation, this sort of thing either requires constant maintenance, or falls quickly into disrepair. I'm against it as well. Sergecross73 msg me 12:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Would you feel better about the list if the groupings were removed completely and simple minimum for inclusion was set instead, like the major info technology template?Rogue Commander (talk) 13:40, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
That's better but it's still not intuitive like Serge said. Per WP:NAV, navboxes should feature articles that are "established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles". The articles would not be related except for being above some arbitrary threshold we set here that is not based on reliable sources. If you can find reliable sources that repeatedly identify the same threshold/criteria and agree on the same set of major publishers that meet this criteria, you can make a case for a template, but I don't think you'll find any cohesive agreement among sources because in reality, there is no fine line which defines major publishers, it's all gray. TarkusABtalk 14:27, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems though that defining a minimum would easier than defining a multi tiered methodology, wouldn't you say? And does a list as it is now, minus the differing definitions and sections, already satisfy the requirement that articles in this navbox are "established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles." They are related by the fact that they are all video game publishers and template is only a list of video game publishers. The threshold would be for keeping the list from being too cluttered with small self publishing teams of 3 guys in garage. i don't know how Template:Major information technology companies came up with their methodology. I don't even know what the methodology behind Template:Electronics industry in Japan is. But clearly a consensus was reached that enabled these templates to exist stably. The real question I guess would have to be if a threshold is even necessary if we make it a general list and forego having specified sections, other than having separate sections form existing and defunct companies. Would anyone even bother to list the 3 guys in their garage on this template?Rogue Commander (talk) 14:43, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems though that defining a minimum would easier than defining a multi tiered methodology, wouldn't you say?
— Yes, but I don't think we should be placing any line in the sand that isn't first drawn by reliable sources.
And does a list as it is now, minus the differing definitions and sections, already satisfy the requirement that articles in this navbox are "established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles."
— If only ~20 publishers existed, I would agree. But the sheer excess of publishers requires us to find a more tight relationship between the specific publishers we include in the template. That threshold needs to first be identified by RSs.
i don't know how Template:Major information technology companies came up with their methodology[...]But clearly a consensus was reached that enabled these templates to exist stably.
—Frankly, I think both those templates are horrible. Way too large in scope and tough to navigate. I think we run a tighter ship here at WP:VG, and we wouldn't create a method ahead of RSs.
Would anyone even bother to list the 3 guys in their garage on this template?
— Yes, the VG community is much more passionate about their favorite niche publishers than followers of IT companies. :)
I think I've said my piece on this. Curious on others' thoughts. TarkusABtalk 16:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe I've mostly said my piece on this as well, though I will add that, yes, I think one of the most frequently recurring issues on Wikipedia is fan's tendency for example bloat, so yes, I believe that passerby editors would frequently bloat the template up with every single minor video game company under the sun. (Different subject area, but to illustrate what I mean with a recent example, look at this, where I removed over 30 examples of bands that have more than one main singer. 30 examples in the prose to illustrate such a basic, easily understood concept. The tendency for example bloat on Wikipedia is insane.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I would also like to here other people's thoughts on this though I thank you both for your feedback. and that bloated singer list was...abysmal. A minimum would probably be necessary in that case, and a renaming to make it clear we are talking about independent publishers/publisher subsidiaries of conglomerates and not internal publishing brands/subsidiaries of larger publishers (i.e. Activision Blizzard are already listed, so there is no reason to list Blizzard and Activision separately even though they do publish under their own names, same with Koei Tecmo). That by itself will cut down potential conflict. The minimum itself might be slightly harder. But I'll try to wait for others suggestions before chiming in more.Rogue Commander (talk) 20:58, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
As above, without reliable sources, any categorization is WP:OR. And, as far as I have seen while maintaining stuff like List of video game publishers, sources do not classify publishers in any standard way. I don't much see a point in navbox that lists all publishers we have, while anything else is subjective classification. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Navboxes are for simplified navigation between related articles. I don't see how the proposed set of publishers are in any way connected, especially such that they would need to be linked beneath their articles. The existing list adequately addresses the function. czar 23:53, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
    • That list unwieldy and damn near unreadable, and I bet its a pain in the neck to maintain and update. How many people would really want to wade through that at all? The Automotive industry has like five lists of marquees/companies/manufacturers that are just as long and unwieldy. It used to have a list of the largest manufacturers that was even worse. And yet, alongside those lists they have multiple navboxes, large, unwieldy navboxes, divided around national automotive industries, that still list automobile marquees/companies/manufacturers. If the purpose is ease of navigation, would a publisher navbox function in that better than a list of that nature? Should we follow the automotive industry section Wikipedia and have multiple navboxes based around national video game industries?Rogue Commander (talk) 01:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Probably not. The list does a fine job of subdividing by country, if that's the desired subdivision for lookup. I don't think Template:Automotive industry in the United States/Template:Automotive industry in the United Kingdom is a good guide—perhaps its pages about regulations in an individual country are intertwined but the companies share next to nothing in common for the purposes of inter-navigation. czar 15:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Weird Talk:Health (gaming) edit war

An edit was has been going on at Health (gaming)'s talk page for ages now and I have no idea why. How can it be stopped? ~Mable (chat) 12:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I've blocked the current IP, though it switches now and then, they seem to have been on this one for a couple weeks. I've watchlisted the article for now. -- ferret (talk) 15:38, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

"List of video games considered the best" is a Frankenstein's monster of bad sourcing

Holy moley, how has this remained this way for this long? The article claims that it compiles "best games ever" lists, but so many of the lists are expressly not that that the whole article is practically useless, especially the ridiculous "tally" which falsely draws an equivalence between stuff like "top 10 games of the 90s" and "top 10 Nintendo games".

Let's take a look at the listed sources, shall we?

More information List of sources ...
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Of that list, 20 sources fulfill the two criteria of being about "best games ever" and being from an unquestionably reliable source. Twenty! Out of 127!

So, why is this article such an awful mess? A quick look at its edit history reveals a huge number of anonymous edits surreptitiously adding in new sources and meticulously keeping track of the "tally", (which doesn't actually tally anything, since most of the sources are about different things.) Examples: 1, 2, 3, and a LOT more where those came from. I believe this article has been largely curated by anonymous sockpuppets of banned user Jagged 85, as the continual misrepresentation of sources, inappropriate synthesis of sources, along with addition of questionable or poor sources, is consistent with their usual behavior (details: 1, 2, 3) and one of their preferred IPs is in the 86 range, which was also the range implicated in their most recent sockpuppet investigation.

In short, this page is in desperate need of a cleanup and rewrite. Phediuk (talk) 07:48, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

    • I am of the opinion that this article's title in itself implies WP:SYNTH and therefore will never be encyclopedic. "Considered" is such a weasel word, because it leaves vague whether actual people consider the games the best, or critics who may or may not be moneyhats. If this article was listed for deletion I would probably vote delete.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 16:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
      • That's just it though, these lists rare ever get consensus for deletion. (Nor should they, the implementation may be flawed, but few can successfull argue that "best/worst of respective media" isn't a notable subject in a world obsessed with top/bottom 5/10/100 lists all the time.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
        • This is different from other lists though. If this just listed games that topped best of lists or something, it would still be pretty crufty, but defensible under a broad interpretation of WP:List. That is not what we have here. Instead this list creates a ranking of games based on the number of times they appear in a best of list without any attempt at justification for the lists chosen or any reliable source that considers such a ranking to be valid. This is as flagrant a violation of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR as I have ever seen on Wikipedia. I mean, it opens with a methodology section for goodness sake! If someone is creating their own evaluation model, they are conducting their own independent research. Indrian (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
          • Indeed, the list is different, and a mess, and I'm not a fan of it one bit...but what I said still applies. It'd still pass an AFD because conceptually its a notable subject. (It wouldn't help that half the !votes would probably be "Urrr there's almost 300 refs, you deletionists are out of control!" etc etc either though.) I'm not defending it at all, I was just saying AFD is not the right way to go. We could always create a new draft as a community and then sub it in for the nonsense that is this current article or something. But it'd be a massive undertaking, and I'm not sure if anyone is volunteering to take it on. (I'd help here and there with cleanup and whatnot, but by no means would I drive such an effort.) Sergecross73 msg me 17:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
            • The list needs to be reworked, and done in a manner that has a set of nearly-objective inclusion requirements, ala what we have for List of video games notable for negative reception (in which there are edge cases that we can discuss for inclusion like No Man's Sky). Here I would expect that a game is included if it falls within a top 10 list (not 25, not 100) from one of our RSes that is only limited by the date of publication (eg eliminating the list of best games in the 2000s). I'd also consider that if it is not so much a list article but a retrospect of a game, that if three or more separate RSes all agree a game is one of the best, then it should be included. You just need good objective guidelines for inclusion to weed out nonsense and bad sources. --MASEM (t) 17:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Which is something I've proposed on the talk page there for a while. The only way this list gets fixed is if its done as a community project. First of all, we should only be using sources located at WP:VG/S, which would get rid of citations such as GameFaqs, CraveDecadeSoFar, and Alvanista. Second, we should not be using yearly best game lists as separate citations, such as Edge's and IGN's. This is doable by a single person and would help set the foundation for a clean up. If nobody disagrees with this, I'll go ahead and get started on it soon. EDIT: As a related note, I think we could also take the List of video game soundtracks considered the best article and merge it, with the additional qualification that it needs five mentions instead of three to be included. (Three is too low to be considered the best of all time) ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

  • I'm in complete agreement that the soundtrack article--which has also been curated by Jagged sockpuppets--should be gutted, merged or deleted. Phediuk (talk) 18:14, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Okay. Disclaimer: I made an early version of this article, which you can see at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_video_games_considered_the_best&oldid=630387453 . It was based roughly off of List of important operas, a Featured List, which uses exactly 9 sources - but high quality ones! - to determine what should appear.

That said, I disagree with the idea that "only" lists that are strictly "list of best games" ever should qualify as a good source. For better or for worse, there traditionally was a large divide between computer games and video games. For example, take the 2006 EGM list "The Greatest 200 Videogames of Their Time" ( link ). It is a great source: it is from a respected-at-the-time dead tree print publication with editorial oversight, it is cross-platform, it covers the then-current history of gaming. But: it doesn't include computer games. Is this cause to throw it out? In the same way, PC Gamer 2013 had a "Top 100 Computer Games of all time." Nothing console-exclusive in it. I think a combined list can be made just fine as long as lists on both sides of the divide are included.

Now, I agree that something like a "Best Nintendo games" list is not great for sourcing, because it is entirely possible that some platform has no games considered significant (Virtual Boy, 3DO, whatever). However, something like "Best 7th Generation Games" (link) might be okay to include, as long as it didn't exercise undue weight upon the list and was from a high-quality source.

Basically, it's about the quality of the source, not necessarily the breadth. It's very difficult to get truly all-encompassing sources, so cobbling together console-specific, PC-specific, different period of time specific, etc. lists CAN be a reasonable way to reach a consensus. A lot of the sources since added to the list are garbage, but the problem is not the narrowness of focus necessarily, but rather just being a weak source to begin with.

(Note that I gave up attempting to impose my vision of the article a long time ago, but if I was still in charge, the list would be chronological, not by number of lists on; it would use a small number of high-quality sources; and the list would be much shorter than what it grew to.) SnowFire (talk) 19:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

  • But: it doesn't include computer games. Is this cause to throw it out? I don't think by omitting a certain platform means any opinions on Ocarina of Time or whatever game they list at the top becomes automatically invalid just because of that. The same should apply to platform-excluse lists; I.E. if a game is listed as the best PC game of all time, and also appears in the top 10s of overall lists, then the source should be used. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:24, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
    • I propose that, to begin with, the entire list be gutted except for the 20 or so sources that are actually reliable and have a wide breadth; the rest can be decided on later, case by case, by consensus. Also, the absurd "tally" must go; I suggest presenting the games in chronological order, and as pointed out above, List of important operas looks like a good model to follow. Phediuk (talk) 21:11, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I guess my point is that I'm less concerned about "wide breadth" for any one list individually than about making sure that the sources used as a whole have wide breadth. In other words, it would be an issue of undue weight if 6 lists that only covered 2010-2017 were included and just 1 list that was 1990-1999 was included. But including time-specific sources might be fine, as long as they're spread out roughly equally, and are high quality. I see you complain above about lots of time-locked or "best of generation" lists, but I think that they can potentially be usable as long as the above proviso is kept in mind. SnowFire (talk) 22:10, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Just going to throw in that I think that it'd be better if we tried to make this list a bit more like list of video games notable for negative reception and nail down a similar inclusion criteria. Then we could make the list a lot more encyclopedic, and if sources are provided, this can be much more broad and inclusive. JOEBRO64 22:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Well if anybody wants to get started, go ahead. I'll just remove all the unreliable sources in the meantime. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:35, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, belatedly, if those IP edits were the sockpuppet of a banner user, that'd explain a lot. For awhile, I tried to defend "my" version of the list, but the IP edits came in too fast and detailed to double-check and determined to fundamentally restructure the article that I figured it wasn't worth fighting. I'm glad if it gets chopped back down to size.

@TheJoebro64:, for what it's worth, I personally really dislike those free-form "write an essay about the game" style of the worst games ever list. There's no need to duplicate content. If people are interested in what a game was, or why it was so good, or why it was so bad, they can darn well click the link and read the full article. Historical rankings of presidents of the United States might have an intro, sure, but it's ultimately a big ranked table. IMO, keep the information density high; I don't need to be told a random out-of-context reviewer quote praising / mocking a game. (In fact, I'd be in favor of removing stuff like the Publisher and Genre from the list as needless cruft as is. Who cares who the Publisher was? Is this useful information in context of a list of best *games*, not best publishers?)

As a side comment seeing the current flurry of edits, I would definitely be in favor of slowing down a bit and perhaps discussing which sources get kept first, and then reconstructing the list based on that (since I'm 100% sure that with so many listed sources, some of those "refs" are a lie.). As stated above, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. What sources should be used? As noted before, I think that time-specific lists are potentially fine, as are consoles-in-general specific list and PC-specific lists (especially for historical games... thanks to Steam & the XBox, cross-releases are much more common now). In the same way, there's some nitpicking I don't think I agree with about "best games ever" vs. "best games right now"; I'm not sure there's actually a useful distinction here, even if the publications are claiming to draw it. Best ever, best now, best then, those all sound relevant. I do think that the Metacritic generated list of their top X scores is legit to use... once. We obviously don't want to use something like it multiple times since reviews at time of release != long-term impact and acclaim, but scoring high on reviews isn't totally irrelevant to bring up. I also think that having one or two reader surveys might be legitimate, as long as they weren't useless stuff-the-ballot-box type surveys, but good luck telling the difference, and including one reader poll could easily open the door to more (like happened... sigh...), so maybe best just to exclude after all. (The main asterisk is that I think a lot of the Japanese best-ever lists were reader polls for whatever reason, so excluding them might make the list more American-centric than it "should" be.)

Anyway, tentatively, from chopping at Phediuk's commentary, I think a good first pass cut would be:

More information List of sources 2 ...
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Only 49 sources! Can definitely be chopped further, of course. SnowFire (talk) 03:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, the bad games list is definitely more stable with its inclusion criteria, whether you like it or not. Literally a case can be made for many, many games to be on the list of worst games, allowing it to be very comprehensive and complete. I've added multiple games to the list (Hotel Mario and Just Dance, for example). It's definitely a more stable list. JOEBRO64 20:20, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I had to remove citation #95 as Nintendo Everything shouldn't be used as a source. Can somebody find a better source? We could always just cite Edge itself, but then it can't be easily verified online (as it's a printed magazine). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:05, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Retro Revival Consoles

So I was kicking around the idea of an article consisting of the NES Classic and the SNES Classic and wondered do we have a name for these and with said name should we have an article? I feel there will be more of these eventually. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 20:01, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

See also Neo Geo X - unlike the Nintendo ones, it's a handheld console that plays remasters of Neo Geo games- both 20 built-in ones and 15 separately-sold ones. --PresN 20:59, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Typically classed as dedicated consoles. The Atari Flashbacks are the longest running series probably. -- ferret (talk) 22:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't know, there's a difference between a dedicated console (a console with games built into it instead of accepting an indefinite amount of seperate games) and a "retro console" (a console designed to play games, built in or not, that were originally released decades prior), even if most retro consoles are dedicated consoles. Not sure if there's enough for an article, but dedicated consoles were among the first consoles ever released, so it's a bit conflative to combine a 1970s Pong console and a 2010s pseudo-SNES. --PresN 23:19, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Did you invent this term? Is it your own neologism? Otherwise, I would say this is a good topic for an article. SharkD  Talk  04:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I didn't invent the term (at least I'm pretty sure I haven't), hence why I said "Do we have a name for these?" Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 18:33, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Newegg has such a category, but I could not find anything on the VGRS Google custom search that deals with the topic in broad terms. SharkD  Talk  21:16, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Character lists

Some weeks ago, I tried expanding the article Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 but I don't know if we should be list all fighters as it might be undue weight. Is there a good fighting game article I can use as a reference. Also, I don't have the manual of the game, so I might not be able to reference most of the characters. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 01:10, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

WP:VGSCOPE #6 and #7 typically frown on simply listing out all the fighters. -- ferret (talk) 01:16, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
I see. So it's not necessary to make list. Thanks.Tintor2 (talk) 01:23, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Fighting game articles usually have some sort of grandfather clause for allowing a list of fighters, however. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Is there an example to follow?Tintor2 (talk) 01:59, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Well we really should not be including a list of fighters at all. But if you need an example of how they are done, just check the regular fighting games, like Tekken and Street Fighter. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:02, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
In general, a list of characters is only useful if most of the characters are notable on their own, like is the case with Street Fighter V and the Smash Bros. series in general. With a fighting game based on a manga like Naruto, you may also need to worry about the list of characters being "obvious". If there is a strong overlap with List of Naruto characters, I wonder if there is much of a point to listing them. Of course, if the list of characters featured in a game is very long, it should generally be excluded as well per undue weight. In this case, 44 playable characters and 15 support characters would probably be too many to reasonably list. Anyone who knows the franchise would probably get the needed information from "Across the story mode, Naruto and his allies fight many enemies from a criminal organization known as Akatsuki ending with his encounter against acting leader, Pain" (though of course the plot description can still be expanded). ~Mable (chat) 11:49, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
In that vein, a roster of existing characters (that existed before the game, and thus have individual characters pointed to via wikilinks) would be reasonable - those characters have pre-existing stories, background/dev, etc. Its when a game introduces a completely new set of characters, where there is minimal story or the like, that those lists make little sense to include. "Here's a bunch of random names that make no sense out of context". --MASEM (t) 14:10, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

(Brain implodes) Here is the entire cast for the ones wondering. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

  • That's not terribly bad. Consider how the table (of about the same size) is very concise for, say Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite. Same could be done here, I think. And just as a couple of data points, we don't have (nor need) a character table for MOBA League of Legends (which 130+ characters are all new for the game), nor does Heroes of the Storm (though that's a case where I do think there may be a reasonable allowance for such a list). Key is not just to throw up a bunch of random names with no way otherwise to give them context for these lists. --MASEM (t) 16:45, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Very surprised HotS doesn't have one. It's Blizzard's MOBA equivalent to Nintendo's Smash Bros., its character rosyer is super notable. You pointed it out and I'm tempted to do it. Just a small table like MvC:I separating per originating game, takes almost no space at all. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 17:03, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I was too. HotS would be an appropriate case for such a compact list. LoL or Dota 2 (at least right now, Artifact might change that) shouldn't for this reason - there's no meaning of these characters outside those games. --MASEM (t) 18:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
So a character list could be added and there's something I wonder. Even though the plot is a retelling should I at least explain the premise of every chapter? Thanks for the comments.Tintor2 (talk) 22:45, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Update: I added the character list but I think it can be better organized. Could somebody give me a hand? Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 00:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Reception sources

Hello everyone. I have a question about reviews that I was hoping someone could answer. There is an IP user who has been adding several review scores for the Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite article that I'm currently working on (to eventually bring to GA). I had previously reverted them once for adding Eurogamer's score to the table without actually citing their review within the post-release reception section's text (per T:VGR). Now, my revert was reverted by the IP, who then added more review scores and provided some text, as seen here: . I'd normally be fine with this, but as you can see, they just tacked everything on at the end of the section (it looks like they copy-pasted the summaries from Metacritic). To me, it kinda seems like this IP wants to "hat-collect" review scores for the sake of having them, rather than add them to the section to provide input that hasn't already been stated several times (given how long the paragraphs already are). I wasn't exactly sure whether or not I should re-revert with this concern in mind.

Would I be in the wrong for reverting? Wani (talk) 00:05, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely not, particularly if they are just quote-farming the bits from MetaCritic. We don't need to document every review if there's more than 6-8 or so, that's why we include the MC link so that an interested reader can search out for more reviews. --MASEM (t) 00:09, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, okay. I was unsure whether VG had anything against adding "too many" reviews or something. Granted, the additional sources are starting to repeat the same ideas and become redundant. Thanks for the reply. Wani (talk) 00:28, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Voyage: Inspired by Jules Verne's FAR

I have nominated Voyage: Inspired by Jules Verne for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. GamerPro64 03:35, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Anon deleting content from RPG articles

An anon has been deleting stuff from History of Western role-playing video games and Role-playing video game. I didn't write any of the stuff he deleted, but I checked and the stuff he's deleting is properly sourced. What should we do in this instance? He has not logged into an account, or left any messages on the Talk pages. SharkD  Talk  20:53, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Just revert and leave them a user talk page message to discuss on the article talks, per WP:BRD. He's not required to log in or use the talk pages before taking action, but once reverted, discussion should happen before he reinstates the edits. -- ferret (talk) 21:32, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Repeating myself from the "List of video games considered the best" section, I have reason to believe that this is the "work" of sockpuppets of banned user Jagged 85, as the deletion of legitimate sources (along with continual misrepresentation of sources, inappropriate synthesis of sources, along with addition of questionable or poor sources in other articles) is consistent with their usual behavior (details: 1, 2, 3) and one of their preferred IPs is in the 86 range, which was also the range implicated in their most recent sockpuppet investigation. If there's an anonymous IP on a video game history article that's downplaying Western games while promoting Japanese ones, and using the aforementioned techniques to do so, it's almost certainly Jagged. They've chosen this article specifically, I believe, in retaliation to my gutting of the Action role-playing game article, which was almost entirely Jagged's work. Phediuk (talk) 13:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
@Phediuk: While plausible, Jagged's IP are all from btcentralplus.com as his ISP. This IP is a static IP from another carrier in a different country, and has been in use since 2014 (Clearly the same editor in all that time and the IP is denoted as static). Perhaps this is a work IP? See this diff in particular. I'm not familiar with Jagged's case though so am not comfortable making a behavioral block. @Sergecross73 and Salvidrim!: I think you both have looked at this case before. -- ferret (talk) 13:34, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
I didn't ever work with Jagged on an administrative level either, so it's hard for me to say. It does seem like there was someone who reported a similar issue to this to WP:VG months/years back, about issues related to IPs and the history of RPGs or something. I don't really recall where that went either though. Anyways, regardless, if the IP edits are repeatedly troublesome, and seem to most be from IPs, I have no problem protecting the article for a while, at least forcing them to discuss or stop. Sergecross73 msg me 14:54, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

OpenCritic as reliable source

OpenCritic is being discussed again. This time, regarding whether it can be considered a reliable source on Wikipedia in general, site-wide. The new RfC has nothing to do does not specifically deal with the Template talk:Video game reviews template (as was the case last time). SharkD  Talk  14:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

  • What exactly would it be used to cite, outside of reviews? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Maybe it can be used to cite snarky comments. SharkD  Talk  21:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I cannot find anything on OpenCritic that can cite your comment SharkD. It's unsourced, could you strike it? -- ferret (talk) 22:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
It's a legit question. There's already consensus not to use it in review boxes. Why do we need a separate discussion for prose? Why would it matter whether or not the content is written in a contained rectangle, or an open sentence? Sergecross73 msg me 23:42, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Editors in the previous discussion intimated that a move to allow OC to be used in the template could not be made until OC were first deemed reliable at VGRS. We've reached that stage in the process right now. SharkD  Talk  20:39, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I've made an arbitrary break in the WP:VG/RS discussion to gather clearer statements of support or oppose from participants. -- ferret (talk) 01:09, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Games lists & wikidata

List articles like this one can be easily reproduced using Wikidata result sets such as this one. (Except maybe for redlinks? Dunno.) Is there any desire to replace these list articles with database queries? The database is more flexible, but requires some skill. Whereas the wiki article just requires a working Web browser. Thoughts? SharkD  Talk  15:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I feel like you've asked this a couple times, but I can only find a discussion from over a year ago right now. Either way, I wouldn't pursue this right now. Wikidata adoption is very controversial, and is mostly limited to various template implementations with frequently-challenged Infobox implementations being the primary use. There's strong objections in the community about using Wikidata for article prose or sourcing, most often due to issues with verification policy differing between ENWIKI and WD. -- ferret (talk) 15:47, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not talking about auto-embedding wikidata in an WP article. But maybe linking to a result set in an article's "External links" section? SharkD  Talk  15:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I can't really see 7KB long links being a good call for EL sections. What might be more useful would be to build a guide to performing video game related queries against WD, as a part of (or subpage of) WP:VG/WD. -- ferret (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Problem is, List_of_role-playing_video_games:_2016_to_2017 only has one item in it! Nobody is going to update it by hand. Wouldn't it be worse to import the data from WD than to just link to WD? SharkD  Talk  16:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
In my view that's not the issue. This list should be reorganized from "date ranges" to alphabetical. It's unnecessary for most of these articles to be split into single year periods for just a few entries. It creates a lot of duplicates and maintenance such as repeating the Legend, etc. I would combine into a single list. IF that list is too big, I would first split as A-L and M-Z, similar to List of PlayStation 4 games. -- ferret (talk) 16:53, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
As an example, the 1994 to 1995 page has nearly 200 games on it. You're still going to have to split the list into many pages, repeat the legend, etc. You're not really solving anything. SharkD  Talk  20:53, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
That PS4 list is a nice list, but I think it's against Wikipedia rules to use a font so small. It also has fewer games on it than the number of RPGs on Wikidata. SharkD  Talk  20:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, when I originally made the list it was split into 5 and 10 year spans. Someone else came along and split it into 2 year intervals. SharkD  Talk  21:06, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
It was split into smaller intervals due to page loading times and other performance reasons apparently, though I thought 5 years was fine. SharkD  Talk  22:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

These indexes aren't really encyclopedic, so l would love to see them be replaced with Wikidata. After all, they're basically a literal database already, except written in wikitext. My solution is as follows: make these indexes in Wikidata, show that it replaces the indexes, and then we can decide what to do next. Right? ~Mable (chat) 18:26, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I already posted the Wikidata query. Read my post again. And, yes, I agree with you, in that I wonder why do we need these lists when we have Wikidata? SharkD  Talk  20:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, my apologies. The only difficulty is that I still don't really understand how to use (browse?) Wikidata, and that even if I wanted to create something like this, I wouldn't know how to. If I knew how to use Wikidata (or rather, once I finally figure out how to use Wikidata), I would probably be 100% on board with using Wikidata more. Either way, these types of "indexes" aren't encyclopedic, that I know, and I'd vote delete if they came up. Unless a list article contains original information (One or more good prose sections, a specific context for existence, or because they are filled with non-notable subjects), they are likely not encyclopedic in nature... ~Mable (chat) 12:00, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Why these lists at all? This looks like the realm of categories. Unless we promote redlink inclusions, any of these lists are purely the intersection of genre and year vg cats. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 22:07, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
    I think this index exists because it allows people to sort these works by developer, setting, platform, etc. This is a databse' job. It's cool and useful, but it's pretty literally what Wikidata was made for, if I am not mistaken. ~Mable (chat) 11:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
We need some way to point readers toward the database however. Normally, in SQL you can create a "view" or report of some type so users don't have to build the queries themselves. But we don't have such a feature over at Wikidata yet. I suppose a user could create and host such a view on their own website, but I'd rather see this stuff remain within the Wikipedia/data sphere. SharkD  Talk  21:01, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, FYI, Wikipedia does not support Wikipedia:Category intersections yet, AFAIK. SharkD  Talk  21:04, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Sure but instead of these lists there could be "role-playing games per year" (which would automatically place in RPG and "(year) video games) instead... but that's a pretty big change to implement. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 14:31, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but as Mable explained, a category intersection omits all the other data, like developer, publisher, subgenre, release dates for different regions, etc. etc. And a regular list is a pain in the ass to maintain. SharkD  Talk  03:09, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (5 October to 13 October)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements

5 October

7 October'

8 October

9 October

10 October

11 October

12 October

13 October

Salavat (talk) 04:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Skotos

Is there a video game with the name "Skotos"? On wikidata it is listed as a game, and was listed as an RPG before I removed the statement. It links to Skotos which seems to be a gaming portal. Are there other gaming portals I can use as a model? SharkD  Talk  03:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

A bot seems to have done that back in 2013, probably was never a game. -- ferret (talk) 13:21, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Kiryu's 1up article

While expanding the creation section of Kazuma Kiryu, I realized this 1UP interview was never archived so it's dead. By any chance does anybody know another archive? The article Yakuza (video game) also used some 1UP references but all of them are dead now. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 15:42, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

@Tintor2: Here's a complete archived version of the interview you mentioned. Here's an alternate version you can use. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
@ProtoDrake: Thanks.Tintor2 (talk) 15:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Template talk:Video game genre

Can we move Artillery to the "Other genres" section? I don't think there are a whole lot of strategy or tactics in these games. They are more focused on the pointing, shooting and ballistics, and I think they don't fit very well in any of the other categories. SharkD  Talk  04:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

On second thought, I suppose the Worms series could be strategic, since you control multiple units, and they have different types of weapons (AoE, ballistic, direct fire weapons, etc.). SharkD  Talk  04:08, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Are there any other opinions? SharkD  Talk  00:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

The Black Cauldron

The video game description takes up a pretty big section of the film article. It was merged in there several years ago because it did not have any sources, although one source was added on the film article since then. I am wondering if more sources exist to improve this and maybe one day split it back out? 76.231.73.99 (talk) 03:43, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

  • I just removed an entire paragraph there that mentioned keybindings (WP:GAMECRUFT) that should reduce some of the bloat. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:33, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Good call. 76.231.73.99 (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Review Thread 33 - October 2017 edition

We're on the point of November, and as I look, I see multiple GAs waiting for someone to review them. As with previous entries by myself and other editors on this theme, I'll be putting open FAs, GAs, FLCs, and other stuff. GAs were generally nominated across September and October, unless otherwise noted.

FACs
FLC
GANs
Other

As before, there is the Requests board as a related addition to this. Please feel free to review article requests, as there is a gigantic backlog. Out of the articles nominated above, four are my own and thus exempted from me taking them on: Bullet Witch, Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love and the two Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei games. --ProtoDrake (talk) 11:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

You know, Knuckles' Chaotix looks like it needs some reviews... :) JOEBRO64 11:55, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Somari peer review

Hi, I've recently nominated Somari for a peer review and would like some comments. The peer review is here. Thanks! JOEBRO64 17:23, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Sister Sonic

Looking for input on a potential merge of Sister Sonic into Popful Mail: Talk:Sister Sonic#Merge into Popful Mail. Thanks. TarkusABtalk 21:56, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Domark Software

How comes no discussion was raise about merging? It was just merged without discussion, I don't think they should of been merged as they were separate companies. Govvy (talk) 11:27, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

The article was an unsourced mess, only one properly referenced was present, that depeicting Domark's reformation into Eidos (which later became Square Enix Europe); hence, the article did not meet any article criteria and could have simply been CSD'd or redirected. I am currently trying to work out on having a nice history section, including Domark, drawn out at the given target article, though it appears trublesome to find good sources for Domark (another con-notability pointer). You are invited to help me out in SE Europe's history section if you happen to know good sources (MobyGames is not). Cheers! Lordtobi (✉) 11:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
German magazine Retro Gamer has a six page article on Domark. Part of the articles of Retro Gamer are translations from the UK original so it might be that article is available in English as well. Here's an article in MoneyWeek. I don't have the time, but for someone with time it should be easy to come up with an article on Domark. Kind regards, Grueslayer 19:05, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Yet, it should just be part of the article under the name it has now (it is litterally the same company). Having a seperate article for the same company just in an older phase makes little sense. Lordtobi (✉) 19:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
With 100+ games in their rooster? That's definately worth an own article. Domark was one of the big players of the homecomputer era. Kind regards, Grueslayer 20:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Just because they've made a bunch of games is not a reason to keep something (WP:INHERITED). What I understand from the article Square Enix Europe, is that Domark became that company, so I don't see an issue with merging/redirecting. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering if there is a List of Domark games, or category for the games? It's often the case for these older gaming companies from the Commandore - Spectrum era to be under the radar and not have the same presence on wikipedia. Govvy (talk) 21:34, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
A category would be alright. Surprised there is not one already. SharkD  Talk  00:51, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
There is Category:Domark games. Lordtobi (✉) 12:57, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Is it me or is it vastly under-populated? Govvy (talk) 17:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
I totally disagree with the redirect of Domark. It was a fundamental player in the history of the UK game's industry. This should have been discussed before this dramatic decision. I am not disputing the article needed improvement MrMarmite (talk) 13:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
As given above, there are only these two reliable sources plus those discussing the company's closure. And as Soetermans stated, per WP:INHERITED, having notable games does not make the company behind it notable. Plus your statement "It was a fundamental player in the history of the UK game's industry." comes completely unsourced. Lordtobi (✉) 13:51, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
If the Domark stuff ever gets expanded, it could be split off once again into its own article. SharkD  Talk  02:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Kazuya Mishima's importance

While trying to clean up the article of Kazuya Mishima, I've been wondering if the character could be midclass like Jin and Heihachi. I mean, he first appeared in the very first Tekken game and then he became one of the main antagonists. There is also a lot of reception about him too but I wanted somebody to clarify it. Also, if possible the article lacks creation information about him. I only found information about his devil form. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 20:44, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Sounds fine to bump it up to mid-importance if the other Tekken protagonists are too. I don't think any of them really deserve it (Heihachi is the only one I, a non-fan, recognize), but it's not really important what importance these characters have. Generally, there's no need to ask about switching from low to mid or vice versa - if someone disagrees, they will revert. As for creation information: it can be hard to find creation information about 1990s characters, but maybe you can find some interviews in magazines of the time that aren't in the article yet. I don't have much experience with that, so good luck ^_^; ~Mable (chat) 09:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Rockstar San Diego

Over the past days, I expanded some on the Rockstar San Diego article. However, I'm not a particularly good writer and hence, I would like to ask some of you to take a look and maybe do some c/e. Furthermore, the last senteces of the history section are currently, more or less, a source dump and should be fleshed out a bit. Lastly, I couldn't find a lot of info on what they did in recent years, that is after the release of GTAV, and I'm not sure if the C rating on the talk page is appropriate. Thanks in advance for your help! Lordtobi (✉) 14:17, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I suspect the recent years stuff will probably be RDR2, but there are no reliable sources for that yet. - X201 (talk) 14:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

WP:Manual of Style/Computing#Definite article section proposed for revision

FYI
 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

The WT:MOSCOMP#Definite article section is proposed, here, to be substantially revised for better agreement with RS practice, linguistics, and MoS norms.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  17:11, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify for everyone - This is not just computing. There is a specific proposal to change the way video games handle the definite article. - X201 (talk) 18:38, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

H1Z1 page move contestment

Opinions wanted here, which has become contested for some reason. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:15, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

  • It's still ongoing, so more opinions are needed. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:50, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (14 October to 20 October)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements

14 October

15 October

16 October

17 October

18 October

19 October

20 October

Salavat (talk) 06:20, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Why is there a Swedish draft of PUBG on the EN wiki? It has to be a mistake, right? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:05, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I would go for deletion here since it’s a unsourced foreign language draft for an aricle than already exists on the English Wikipedia.--67.68.21.146 (talk) 20:26, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
  • @Dissident93: It seems to be a direct translation of the current version of the enwp article, with the references removed(???), presumably to be moved over to svwp. I don't know what the typical procedure is here, but it's clearly not material intended to be used on enwp in any way.--IDVtalk 20:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Well, I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but the draft itself is a Swedish translation of our English PUBG article, so it makes no sense to add a request for a swe-eng translation.--IDVtalk 23:10, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

List of characters notability

Hi everyone,

Is List of Art of Fighting characters worth having on its own? List of The King of Fighters characters, a similar fighting game series by SNK is properly sourced, but Art of Fighting has one reference currently. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 10:38, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

AfD'ed. Sidenote: WP:VG/AA hasn't been updated in a couple of days. Does anyone know why? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 09:39, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Looks like it updated this morning. --Izno (talk) 14:03, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Pay to Win - possible commercial protection !

Sonic Unleashed

How do I join?

Super Mario 64 and the SNES

Further input appreciated: should we include development progress?

Is it an RPG?

Super Hydlide wikidata

Decksplash demands 100K players

Unsourced articles

New Articles (19 October to 27 October)

Dead Ahead

Star Wars Battlefront II (2017 video game)

Football (video game)

Release dates in the age of early access

Wolfenstein series article name change

Fox McCloud's legs - were they amputated? (OR discussion)

Sales figures outside the UK

New Articles (25 October to 3 November)

Develop

citing a game manual

Zarlor Mercenary

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