Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 139

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New Articles (June 9, 2018 to June 14, 2018)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 Generated by v1.4 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 12:37, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

June 9, 2018

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E3 edition! The bot was down for the last two days, but that still leaves us quite a lot up through the 14th. The other two days will make it onto next week's report (hopefully). --PresN 12:37, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks so much, PresN! Nomader (talk) 23:06, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Interest in Steins;Gate characters?

This project is really good at making articles for characters. I don't know what makes cahracters notable, but I have personal favorites coming from steins;gate. Not sure if they are notable. Specifically Suzuha Amane, Ruka Urushibara and MOeka Kuryu.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 20:56, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I would recommend you checking Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources since there is even a Google engine. I'm not familiar with them but if the games have had animes I would advise you searching for critical reception in [www.animenewsnetwork.com ANN] and UK Anime.Tintor2 (talk) 20:59, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
ok, i'll look into it and see what I can find for them.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 21:13, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I would suggest looking into the Science Adventure series in general rather than just Steins;Gate. I don't know if these characters have a lot of coverage, though - I have searched for development and reception related sources a lot when working on the articles, and there's not a lot of stuff out there.--Alexandra IDVtalk 21:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The only series I'm familiar with is Steins;Gate and Steins;Gate 0. I don't know if its a shared universe or if they're only related in themes.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 22:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
In recent years a lot of "list of [X] characters" have been deleted, often because they lack stand-alone notability. I'm not familiar with the series and perhaps they do have plenty of coverage, but there's nothing wrong with having a properly referenced section on a general article. My 2¢. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 01:28, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Well, when I saw this discussion earlier, my recommendation was to check with Alexandra IDV, who is the biggest S;G fan I've seen on Wikipedia. But she's already responded now. I'm personally a big fan, but I've written very little on it on Wikipedia, as editors like Alexandra have beat me to the punch usually. I will say though, in my experience, it's generally pretty difficult to meet the notability requirements for video game characters. If you do attempt it, I'd recommend starting with a starring character though. I've wanted to create character articles for a bunch of video games, and the few I've ever had any luck with finding sources for were main characters. They're the ones who generally get the needed coverage. Sergecross73 msg me 02:22, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Ok if its a shared universe, than i'm not qualified for it. I've never played the other games. If the characters never interact between series, would it still make sense to keep them separate?Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 06:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
If you wee interested in, I'd check for sources before all else. It's not like characters AREN'T independently notable in general, as there are still a lot of these lists. The ones that get deleted are the ones that are either not sourced, or really poorly sourced. I know nothing of the series, but it might pass. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:22, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

GA notifications

One of Flowerpiep's works, Hinata Hyuga, became a GA yet the user received a message that the review failed. Could this be related to the article's history as it once failed the review? Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 17:29, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Probably; given the lack of articlehistory template, and the presence of both a GA and GAfailed template, I bet the bot that posts to talk pages looks at the article talk page, checks for GAfailed, then checks for GA. --PresN 20:29, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Rushed article?

A fellow user has just rebuilt Nero (Devil May Cry) but it lacks items fellow Devil May Cry articles lack. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of material about his creation (I remember that once his English actor said it was one of his favorite characters) but I don't think I can work on it that much. Any idea? I would be bold and merge but from my point of view the user is aware about the notability guidelines based on how he created the article. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 20:22, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's an obvious merge and delete (And if you were so inclined, you would have to take to AfD), but the character doesn't seem non-notable. The fact that other DMC articles are WP:GA or WP:FA doesn't mean that this article is bad; but it does suggest that work could be done. I'm not familiar with the series, so I can't help, but even if the reception section was expanded slightly, it would be a fine article (If close to the WP:GNG border.) Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:30, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
I managed to add some more sources. I'm pretty sure the site Anime News Network also gave their opinion on Nero but I can't find the article even though it's supposed to be new.Tintor2 (talk) 18:51, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Managed to improve it to at least to two paragraph. The problem is that Nero's character only appeared in DMC4, the two novels (never translated) and the upcoming DMC5 so there's not much to expand. I'll see if I can find more creation info if the consensus is that the article can pass notability.Tintor2 (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: I managed to find a lot of creation information about the character and expanded a bit the reception. What do you think?Tintor2 (talk) 23:56, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Street Fighter articles

Hi all, I've recently been working my way through some of our Category:Video game cleanup articles, but there are a few Street Fighter articles that seem to be complete Game guide style articles in their gameplay sections. I'm not a fan of the series, so I don't know much about it.


The articles are:

And, looking at the series as a whole, the articles in general have an awful lot of information, but need serious cleanup. Would anyone with more knowledge of the subject (or even fighting games in general) take a look at them for me? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:51, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Fighting games in general seem to have a lot of gamecruft, such as lists of character rosters. I've always considered it a grandfathered clause, but we probably should have a discussion about this. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:35, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Broken Links on Lists

I posted this on Talk:List of Commodore 64 games (A–M) but thought maybe I should post here too.

Hello, I am currently attempting to look at all games released for the Commodore 64 listed on Wikipedia. I have been fixing some dead/broken links as I go along, but there are many issues I am unsure about proper procedure. I have a few questions I would appreciate feedback on:

According to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Assessment#Quality_scale, lists should be lists of LIVE links to Wikipedia articles. However, according to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Video_games#Essential_content, an article should have a minimum amount of information to warrant its own page. So my question is, what do I do when I find a dead link referring to a game that has mentions in sites like Moby Games, Lemon 64, or My Abandonware? If I find a link that refers to a game that I can't find anything about, I should presumably flag it somehow, but I am not sure how to do that either.

Any feedback is appreciated. RampagingCarrot (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

ataricompendium.com

I wanted to check with others if it's okay to use it as a source. Govvy (talk) 21:02, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Seems to just be an archive site which, if used in the correct way, is fine. --LichWizard talk 21:31, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't have any idea if it's reliable or not, but it is a fascinating site. I know a lot about DC Comics but never knew they published Atari-themed titles. JOEBRO64 21:34, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
k, thanks, Govvy (talk) 21:38, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

New Articles (June 15, 2018 to June 23, 2018)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 Generated by v1.4 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 20:27, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

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The second half of E3- an explosion of Drafts! Also, some tagging sprees for both articles and categories. Also, should Category:First-person video games even exist? If so, it probably should have more than 1 article and 1 subcat (FPSs)... --PresN 20:27, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Lumines Live! is now an article.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 23:45, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

VGHF magazine archive available for requests

FYI. I (finally) was able to get in touch with Frank Cifaldi of the Video Game History Foundation. He is willing to take source requests from his magazine archive as needed. He's pretty busy and we don't know what the request volume could be, but we can at least try it out. So if you're looking for a scan, send me a message, and I can act as the middle man.

His library consists of:

  • #1 through December 1999
    • EGM
    • GamePro
    • Game Informer
    • Nintendo Power
  • #1 through December, 1997, 1998-1999 missing a few
    • GameFan
  • All issues
    • Video Games & Computer Entertainment
    • Video Games
    • Game Players
    • Game Player's
    • Game Player's Nintendo
    • Game Player's Sega
    • Game Player's Game Boy
    • Electronic Game Player
    • Sega Visions

TarkusABtalk 22:45, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

@TarkusAB:Have you already checked archive.org? There's now every single issue of GameFan magazine available up until the very last issue (December 2000/Vol. 8, Issue 12). That's how i've managed to find missing Atari Jaguar reviews + reviews for other systems as well from the magazine. Type "GameFan Vol x" and there 'ya go!. Hope that helps. KGRAMR (talk) 01:44, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
It would be great if he could connect with archive.org to get all those scanned or something. --Izno (talk) 03:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
ehhh we need to be careful with that. Cifaldi knows well enough about video game preservation, and for that we have the exceptions on the DMCA that allow use to emulate games that cannot work on available hardware (hence why archive.org can host all those old DOS games and other things). But magazines, these still have standard copyright. The one-off article someone made need is within fair use, but not full issue runs, at least, without permission of the publisher. --Masem (t) 03:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree, but beyond the copyright concerns, it takes time too, time he'd rather spend combing through preview carts from Game Informer's archives to make sure the ROMs are copied before they die. But yea, remember when there were a bunch of Nintendo Power magazines up there? Then they all disappeared one day? Since he's now a designated non-profit, perhaps he is more concerned about copyright too. TarkusABtalk 11:33, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Blade Strangers cover art

Hello there! I've been working on overhauling and updating the recent Blade Strangers article after a banned user created it in a poor, unfinished state. I think I've nearly managed to update it to meet both notability guidelines and a minimum standard of quality, but one of the remaining tasks is to replace the current cover art, which is only a small portion of an outdated piece of box art, with the full final box design (either for Switch or PS4; both are functionally identical, save for the presence of the last playable character on the Switch cover). However, as I'm only an IP and choose not to make an account for personal reasons, I can't replace the image myself, and would appreciate it if someone here would be so kind as to do so. On the same topic, I'd also appreciate it if someone could give my work a quick evaluation to see if it can be moved any higher on the quality scale. I've also pulled some information for the article from this interview with the game's producer, but I'm not sure if it qualifies as an acceptable source. Can someone verify if this would be permissible to cite? Thank you very much -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 18:24, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I bumped it to start, taking into account that it doesn't have a reception section at this time, and the refs are a bit weak, some from unreliable sources. I don't see a problem with citing the video but I tend to stay away from interviews which do not appear in WP:RS, because of WP:WEIGHT. You might add it as an external link. --Izno (talk) 18:39, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind; I definitely intend to build a proper reception section once actual reviews start appearing when it's released in a few months. Any sources in particular I should try and replace in the meantime? I'm still on the hunt for a good source that covers the development information from the press release.
EDIT: Replaced the Shoryuken and Destructoid articles with IGN and Gematsu. I think all the sources are acceptable now, though I'd still like to find a source I can use in place of the official site and press release. Also, I'd still appreciate it if someone could replace the article's cover art as was my original request. (Thank you, Alexandra IDV!) -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 18:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Link to this book's isbn?

While expanding Nero (Devil May Cry) I found images from this artbook that present early designs for the character. However, I haven't found the book online on Amazon so I don't possess the ISBN. Any idea? Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Is this it? i found it on amazon. .Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks.Tintor2 (talk) 00:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
No problem. Glad i can help.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 02:34, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Criminal Case (game) tables

Previously, I removed the list of cases from the above game series. The article suffers from this ridiculous list, which seems to be a list of in-game information, which isn't notable. The article doesn't follow the MOS at all, and I'm not sure it's notable (It's borderline).

It does seem to be really reliably updated, but I'm not sure if a complete re-write is in order. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:00, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

These are WP:GAMECRUFT and should be removed. --Izno (talk) 12:13, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree with the fictional "location" and "partner/character" fields, but if this was an episodic game, and the "release date" field isn't in-universe stuff but rather actual release dates of the episodes, then listing the names and release dates wouldn't be gamecruft. Sergecross73 msg me 12:30, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Doesn't that seem rather in-depth? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:52, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
I mean, it seems in-depth, but I think that's just because there aren't many 100+ part episodic games? I mean, it doesn't matter to me, I don't have any plans to edit or maintain the article, so you can remove it whole-sale if you want. But if a dispute broke out over it, I'd argue in favor of inclusion of a name/release date column. Sergecross73 msg me 13:36, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
I just removed the section. A whopping 63k+ characters long list. Gives no actual information whatsoever about the game. WP:NOTCATALOG and WP:GAMECRUFT. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 14:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
On a related note should it instead be titled Criminal Case (video game)?--76.65.41.59 (talk) 22:44, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it should. No idea why it was reverted in December. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:23, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The Last of Us disambiguation

Dan arndt has moved The Last of Us to The Last of Us (videogame) without reason or consensus. Not only does this break naming conventions, it also seems useless, as the only other article with this name is a 2016 Tunisian film, a stub with one reference. I believe this move should be reverted, at least until a consensus is formed. – Rhain ☔ 05:54, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Looks like it's all resolved now. Ansh666 has moved the article back to its undabed version and I've reinstated the talk page. Anarchyte (work | talk) 07:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Oh, dang it, the userpage move thing got me again. Thanks for taking care of that. ansh666 07:49, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
The only time the article should be moved, would be if a series article was eventually created after a third game Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:02, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Garry Newman

Would anyone happen to know if there are any photos of Garry Newman (developer of Rust and Garry's Mod) floating around with Commons-allowable licenses? I tried searching for some but I came back empty handed. I'd like to add his photograph to the development section of Rust. Anarchyte (work | talk) 12:35, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Since he is tech-savvy and pretty active on social media (https://twitter.com/garrynewman), maybe your best shot is simply asking him for a picture? After all, it might play to his ego to see his face on Wikipedia Regards SoWhy 13:25, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps. I'll see if I can get a hold of his email or something tonight. Anarchyte (work | talk) 23:54, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Screen Sports

Any better categories here? An interesting phenomena, that seems to be using a Konglish term. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:20, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Hotel Mario for good article reassessment

Hotel Mario, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. JOEBRO64 23:23, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Video Games Database

I have recently looked at several of the lists on Category:Video_game_lists_by_platform and discovered that the lists are wildly inconsistent on formatting as well as details about games themselves, such as release dates. It seems to me that a database of video games would be very useful for standardizing the information across all video game lists (not just by platform but also by genre, publisher). However I am pretty inexperienced at wikipedia and am not sure the best approach for this, or if it is even feasible. To start things off, I created a Google Sheet. I would appreciate any feedback or assistance. I apologize if this idea has already been broached: navigating the archives was a daunting task RampagingCarrot (talk) 05:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Hello,
This is the sort of things we are trying to build on Wikidata :) See Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Wikidata for this wikiproject’s guideline regarding Wikidata, and feel free to drop by d:Wikidata:WikiProject_Video_games (although it is not very active).
Hope that helps, Jean-Fred (talk) 11:11, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Jean-Frédéric. Thank you for pointing this to me. Do you perhaps know of an example of a wikipedia list that makes use of wikidata? RampagingCarrot (talk) 18:11, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Rampagingcarrot I am not really active here on en.wp so would not know − my guess is that there are none in the main space. I would not be surprised if other Wikipedia would have such Wikidata-powered videogame lists, but I don’t know about them.
I made a short proof of concept at User:Jean-Frédéric/List of Master System games.
Jean-Fred (talk) 17:49, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Jean-Frédéric. Thanks! I also found this Template:Wikidata_list that I'm guessing is similar to what you started with. I'm guessing that we need all of the games in a wikipedia list to be put into wikidata before we are allowed to migrate to the main space. Maybe I will attempt it with one of the shorter lists like List_of_Atari_XEGS_games. RampagingCarrot (talk) 18:17, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Rampagingcarrot Yes, the list is based on {{Wikidata list}}.
Increasing Wikidata coverage of video games based on Wikipedia lists is definitely worthwhile − I took another approach, by cross-linking with external databases.
As for using them in the main space: I have not followed what’s the current policy on English Wikipedia but I don’t think this is allowed. Other Wikiproject members may have more to say about the topic. Personally, I don’t think we have done enough work yet on Wikidata regarding video games for taking over Wikipedia lists anytime soon. :-)
Jean-Fred (talk) 10:18, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
There's a big warning on {{Wikidata list}} that it should not be used in mainspace. If I recall correctly, it's because it suborns wikipedia to wikidata- any list based on that template will overwrite any wikipedia edits to the list via bot, forcing editors to make changes at wikidata instead, and people disliked that. --PresN 13:47, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
PresN That makes sense. I was just writing to Jean-Frédéric yesterday that the ability for anyone to edit Wikipedia is a core principle and that if Wikidata was going to be integrated it would need to be in a way that makes it as easy as possible for Wikipedia users to make changes: perhaps a user interface or bots that automatically track changes. Another (perhaps smaller) problem I just thought of is that single changes in a Wikidata item could effect multiple list articles, which may require changes to how wikipedia reports changes so articles can be quickly repaired in case of errors. RampagingCarrot (talk) 14:45, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

New Articles (June 23, 2018 to June 29, 2018)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 Generated by v1.5 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 12:26, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

June 23, 2018

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Actually updated the script a bit for once. Changelog:

  • Fixed 'page moves out of User space' being treated as renames instead of article creations
  • Fixed bug with pages treated as creations if they were moved and then edited several times --PresN 12:26, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Did you run the script last night? There is an article deleted yesterday in the list of created articles. --Izno (talk) 14:52, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Mmm, two issues there- one is Chicken hunter license to grill, which was deleted yesterday but won't be on the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Video game articles by quality log as "removed" until tomorrow, so the script didn't remove it from this list- it only drops articles that are later listed as removed, it doesn't check for this case (deleted too late to make the list). The other is Draft:Cuisine Royale, which was listed as in mainspace because it was assessed as "start"- that's a bug, will add to the list. --PresN 18:13, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Hah, the one I caught was the non-error. --Izno (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

ESports Rosters

I've recently seen a few of these articles for ESports, that have a "roster" section. Are these sections encylopedic (As none of the people themselves are notable), for articles such as EVOS Esports, or 1907 Fenerbahçe eSports? The information seems superfluous, especially when unsourced. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:24, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

These people will come and go--it would be marginally more encyclopedic for that to be prose in some more-general history section. --Izno (talk) 12:04, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
They would be like professional sports teams, so seem reasonable, but yes, needs better sourcing to show that the organization is notable. --Masem (t) 14:19, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Professional sporting teams usually just have the current roster, while a lot of eSport team pages include historical rosters (and with almost no sourcing). We should at least agree that historical rosters shouldn't be added, as that's a better fit for Liquidpedia. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Requirements to make a video game artist

I've been recently searching for items involving Bingo Morihashi, a writer for games as well as two novels. However, I can't find anything about his work before joining Capcom. I haven't created many real life people articles so I don't know how they should be. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 19:15, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Need some sourcing help with Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos

Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos is currently rated as B-class (by 2006 standards since it contained few secondary sources) but I think an important game like that should be a GA (at least). I already made "some" changes but especially the development history eludes me since I cannot find much online. Does anyone have access to old magazines, in paper or databases, and can help out with the article? Regards SoWhy 08:55, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

From a quick look at the article, quotes from the game aren't notes, they should be included the same as regular references. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

DDR and gameguide material

Hi everyone,

I stumbled upon the Dance Dance Revolution articles. I've been removing a lot of inappropriate stuff. For instance, on X2 I removed 25K characters on in-game courses. What do you think, is the music section equally GAMECRUFT? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:09, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I've been waiting for someone to mention this. Personally, I've always thought these articles are super unwealdly and crufty. Needs a trim. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:20, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Maybe right now as presented it might be gamecruft, but I think this is somewhere in the vein of the songlists we've provided for other music rhythm games (such as Guitar Hero). Those seem like an analogous case. --Izno (talk) 13:27, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
As a music game, I do think that the list of featured songs is relatively important, though in comparison to Guitar Hero/Rock Band, DDR games never got the same attention to their song lists since many of theme were custom tracks made specifically for the game. If there were more licensed, not-original-to-DDR songs that would have more blue-links than not, then I would lean keep. --Masem (t) 13:29, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
DDRMAX Dance Dance Revolution 6thMix is in awful shape, btw Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:36, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Some articles like Dance Dance Revolution X have spin-offs like Music of Dance Dance Revolution X, with sections Music of Dance Dance Revolution X#Lists of songs. I wouldn't consider that to be informative, but GAMECRUFT and CATALOG-ish. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 18:40, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Origins Award for Eastern Front

For the 1981 Origins Awards, a game called Eastern Front won for best computer game for that year. However, no publisher is listed on that site, so I expect it would be Eastern Front (1941). The German version of that article seems to agree with me, but can anyone find a source to prove it before I add that award to the article? BOZ (talk) 21:34, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

No source, but if you didn't know the Atari Program Exchange was a program whereby developers sent in games/programs for Atari home computers and Atari listed them in a catalog and sold them; it wasn't a traditional publishing arrangement as Atari fronted no money to the developer and I don't believe they bought the rights to the game itself, but instead just got a cut of sales through their catalog. I'm basing that off of other APX games that I recall when trying to cobble together list of Atari, Inc. games seeing being sold by their developers directly in addition to through APX, meaning APX was not the sole publisher for even Atari computers. Tl;dr it makes sense to me that Origins Awards wouldn't list a publisher for Eastern Front if it was only sold through APX. --PresN 03:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Might be worth considering placing Atari Program Exchange as a distributor and not a published, no? Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 03:12, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
I think it depends on what you call a "publisher". Like, being a publisher in 2018 means 2 things, usually- you assist the developer in getting the game ready for release (aka give money, or QA resources, or advice, or whatever) and you handle marketing/distribution of the game- getting it in stores and online platforms, making advertisements. And APX didn't do the first, they just handled part 2. But does that make them a distributor only? They handled "distribution", sure, but usually distributor just means a company that physically gets it into stores and doesn't handle marketing to customers in any way. I'm not sure there's a word for that "publisher-lite" relationship. --PresN 03:45, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
OK, so do you figure it would be safe to add the Origins Award to the Eastern Front article, or should I dig a little more? BOZ (talk) 11:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
I think you can go ahead. --PresN 01:15, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Glixel

So while the details aren't well established, it looks like Rollingstone.com has transferred all the Glixel content to Variety (as it looks like its being merged into Variety's VG coverage), breaking all links. Brian Crecente, one of the Glixel writers, says they will assure all the content gets there, but we may have to do a bunch of manual Glixel link fixes. --Masem (t) 04:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Masem: Drop a note on Cyberpower's talk page to have him do a run of IABot on the Glixel domain. --Izno (talk) 11:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
As a side note, thanks for mentioning this, as it's indirectly cleared up some of my confusion. I was wondering how/why Variety's video game coverage seemed to be much more prominent lately, reporting on things that usually wouldn't get mainstream out-of-video-game-industry type coverage. This would explain it. Sergecross73 msg me 19:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

New Articles (June 30, 2018 to July 7, 2018)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 Generated by v1.6 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 13:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

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Changes from last week:
  • Set article creator as first page editor when not found in bot-assisted list, e.g. recent tags of older articles, drafts, or rare cases that the bot didn't think it was a VG article but it got tagged as such (Note: original creator may be a redirect creator, not actual initial writer, which is why I don't do this for all articles)
  • Do not list articles that have already been deleted as of posting time
  • Gave new templates their own section
  • Fixed bug: Drafts that were assessed as non-draft were being linked as if they were in mainspace
  • Fixed bug: Page moves were not handled correctly when the article title had non-ASCII characters (aka diacritics, mdash, etc.)

--PresN 13:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm fairly tempted to remove HDMI from our scope. It is nowhere near the pivotal technology status that would be needed to add our banner to it, and we get a single line of text in the article. --Izno (talk) 13:55, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
I'd agree. Important to how video games work, but its not principally exclusive to video games, so we shouldn't have much say on it. --Masem (t) 14:08, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Thirded; I actually did remove it on May 20, but this past week it got re-added. --PresN 15:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
I've removed it and invited the editor here (per WP:BRD, the template should not be re-added without consensus). --Izno (talk) 23:24, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
  • On a separate note I was curious when I saw Tapper was metnioned in the section for deletion or redirection and when I looked into it I noticed that we have an aricle titled Tapper (arcade game) and was wondering if there was any reason why the title is not Tapper (video game)?--76.65.40.44 (talk) 22:29, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, per convention it should be (video game) as there are no other video game articles with that title to require further disambiguation (and we'd move to (1983 video game) in that case besides). Moved. --PresN 01:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Did we ever have a consensus on how to handle video game streamer/eSport player disambiguation? Seagull (gamer) sounds too overly casually, and "gamer" could mean something outside of video games to somebody who doesn't already have a basic idea on who they are. Something like Dendi (Dota player) explains that they are a player of Dota instead, so would that be preferred or not? It follows more along the standard of other game disambiguations, such as Evgeny Alekseev (chess player). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
WP:NCVGDAB#11. I think "gamer" is a general enough term, and it's consistent with Gamer. For Dendi, perhaps natural disambiguation using real name is worth considering as an alternative but the usual practice would be to disambiguate with (gamer). Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 17:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
So "gamer" (and apparently "video game player") is prefer over "video gamer"? Also, should natural disambiguation overrule common name in the case of Dendi? I feel like that's a downgrade and wouldn't help article navigation. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:25, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Because that !rule was recently discussed at WT:NCVG, I have the link handy to the archived discussion (see this diff's comment). --Izno (talk) 17:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
So would this retroactively apply to Dendi and other articles such as Fear (Dota player), which was moved from Fear (video gamer) a while back? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely. It was moved without discussion by Prisencolin which is worth what it's worth. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 22:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
I see, I just figured it was discussed back then. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:27, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Possible Steam stats

An inadvertent hole in the API allowed player counts for about 1000 games on steam to be seen. It's been closed off since, and only accurate to July 1.

I put forth the question if we should consider this data, even though we have the RS of Ars Tech reporting it. It wasn't an intentional leak, and so may not be accurate in the future. --Masem (t) 20:14, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I would say yes since there is a RS for it. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 22:31, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
I say no because it's still an estimate, making it no different than Steam Spy (just more accurate). If we do end up using this though, keep in mind that the list is not comprehensive. It should never be used to claim games are among the "best-selling" on Steam, because some of these are free-to-play (Team Fortress 2), while others that would be at the top don't have achievements to get numbers from and therefore aren't shown (Dota 2). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
I would say firmly yes. It's definitely not an "estimate"; assuming that some kind of massive conspiracy isn't afoot to create plausible-seeming numbers, those are legit stats and very citable IMO. They just need to come with the proviso that they are measuring % of *players* on Steam of games that have achievements at all (which is not necessarily the same thing as sales, since people can buy games and never play nor install them), as well as that it is a snapshot of July 2018. SnowFire (talk) 02:48, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
This is most DEFINITELY an estimate... It's a calculation based on comparing percentages between different achievements, for the limited games that temporarily provided that information. Are they likely accurate? Sure. They are still estimates though. I've already seen this article be abused to claim "such and such game has the most copies sold on Steam", despite the fact this data set doesn't include even half of all Steam games. -- ferret (talk) 02:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Exactly what I feared would happen. Maybe if this list was actually comprehensive, but it's not and therefore it's wrong to say PUBG is the third best-selling game on Steam or whatever because we're obviously missing other big games like Dota 2, which lack achievements and therefore could not be included on the list. I also later realized that earning achievements in free weekend games (like the spring cleaning games a few months ago) would also bloat up numbers here, so even if we do end up using this list, we'd have to be careful and cite games as "most played" rather than "best-selling". ~ Dissident93 (talk) 10:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
See Alexandra IDV's comment. Citing the list for "positional" information is nonsense ("best-selling"), and "positional" information tends to be more magaziney anyway. Citing it for playerbase statistics, though, is perfectly fine, that's not an estimate - it is a figure that, again barring some revelation about spiked data, should be accurate based on the methodology they describe. SnowFire (talk) 11:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
The numbers are still technically estimates though, as they aren't 100% confirmed and shouldn't be treated as such. This is still a potential long-time issue as people have and will mention a game's position on the list as absolute, at least among the top 10 or so. Games like these need to be watched, which may or may not be a problem. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Responded below to de-indent. SnowFire (talk) 18:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, this is not purchases, and it can't be used for most played rankings because there are some games that are not included in the list. I do think it can be used for things like "By July 2018, the game had an estimated 100,000 players on Steam."--Alexandra IDVtalk 10:41, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that wording implies current players, and should be instead how many people have ever played it (through gaining an achievement) throughout its history. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
That wording also implies the player numbers will continue to increase, which is not guaranteed. SharkD  Talk  21:40, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I think something similar to IDV's suggestion is best. JOEBRO64 16:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
  • @Dissident93:: At risk of nitpicking, it's fine to say that these numbers are "user-compiled" or "unofficial release", but IMO "estimate" is misleading (and yes, I know the linked ArsTechnica article called it an "estimate"). Estimate usually means "uhhh it probably sold around 1 million copies" and it might be 800K or 1.3 mil, who knows. The method described derives a precise number down to the units digit, so we know that Portal had 9,971,481 players on July 1. If we wanted to be REALLY technical, it's a "lower bound" in that it's also possible, but incredibly incredibly unlikely, that since that particular number is divisible by 3, it's possible that it's also 29,914,443 players (or x9, but that gets really silly). A general sanity check suggests that this is unlikely, but even if you thought a-priori it was a coin flip between 10 million and 30 million, since Portal has 15 achievements (a low number!), that means ALL FIFTEEN need to have randomly been a multiple of 3 as well. So, assuming they checked the values for all the achievements, there's only a 1/14348907 chance that, if it really was 30 million users, all the achievement counts lined up to create a reducible fraction in every instance. In practice, I'm not sure they bothered checking all 15 achievements, as checking a mere 5-8 or so would already reduce odds to "all the Beatles getting struck by lightning on the same day" level probabilities. So... these numbers are pretty good, IMO, barring surprise revelation. SnowFire (talk) 18:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
    • I'm not arguing against its accuracy, just its incompleteness and the high likelihood of people misusing it as a comprehensive list (I.E, claims of PUBG being the 3rd most played Steam game of all time). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I think it's okay to use, but only with the strictest limitations laid out by Masem and Alexandra - spelling out the exact context as to hopefully avoid the potential pitfalls mentioned by Dissident. Sergecross73 msg me 19:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Keiji Inafune and Koji Igarashi

I've expanded both over the last year, mostly in a haphazard fashion. Also strictly speaking, I don't know much about them, and am figuring out their biographies as I go, meaning I'd like to get people more familiar with the subject matter to look at them. That would be to check for errors, omissions, or relative weight.

For Inafune, a big problem is there's too many sources. There's probably hundreds of interviews and news pieces locked away in print magazines and not online. And Online has just as many if not more. I could continually update and expand the page, and probably make like 5 pages worth of content. Likely a solution would be to trim the Comcept section and move it more to Level 5 Comcept, which is a little lacking in size. Harizotoh9 (talk) 00:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Microsoft Windows or Windows 10

Has the consensus changed on listing platforms as Microsoft Windows? I saw these edits (, , , , )this morning and wanted to check before I revert. - X201 (talk) 07:44, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

  • No. Windows 10 is only meant to be mentioned in prose, if I remember right. Lead/infobox should just go with the overall OS. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Ben Judd (producer)

I restored the article, as it was previously a redirect. I discuss on the talk page why I feel it's notable. Talk:Ben Judd (producer). My focus was to create a skeleton page as a start, rather than to create a fully fleshed out page. Harizotoh9 (talk) 10:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I've done a copy edit, as it wasn't written particularly well. I also moved the quote that you had, as it wasn't about the subject, simply a game he was involved with. I'm not sure it makes sense as a note, either... Perhaps inserted as one of the references Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, the entire project is his brainchild. He convinced Inafune to go ahead with it, and he did much of the planning in regards to the kickstarter. Then when the game is actually released, he went through reasons why the game had problems in development. The whole livestream was sort of the devs explaining why it was bad and apologizing for it. I've never seen devs do that. It's highly unusual. Harizotoh9 (talk) 11:07, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Amy Rose for good article reassessment

Amy Rose, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. JOEBRO64 23:23, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

KSP genre

I have a question about Kerbal Space Program. Do you think this game's focus is more on construction and management, or more on vehicle simulation? I have only played a little bit - long enough to build a ship capable of escaping Kerbin's gravity, but that's all. Thanks. SharkD  Talk  20:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Whatever the sources call it TarkusABtalk 20:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Okay, what do the sources say? SharkD  Talk  21:12, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
I don't know. What I'm trying to say is, it's not for us to decide. TarkusABtalk 22:23, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not wanting to edit the article. The question was an idle one. But on the topic of the article, I looked at the first four references and they don't agree on a genre. In fact, I would bet that zero of the cited articles use the exact words, "space flight simulation game". And I'm fine with that. SharkD  Talk  22:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
What do the sources say, exactly? If there was some examples of what we being used, I'd be more comfortable. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:13, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I have neither the time nor the inclination to go through all the citations right now. I just wanted to know for personal reasons. SharkD  Talk  19:32, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

2064:Read Only Memories back to Read Only Memories

I made a topic to move 2064: Read Only Memories back to its original name Read Only Memories in the talk page.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2018

Reference 1 link is broken. Please link to the Australian Government's website on legislation instead. https://www.legislation.gov.au/Search/interactive%20gambling%20act 165.12.252.211 (talk) 23:53, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 01:32, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Devil May Cry: 3142

Hello. Does anybody has access to the guidebook Devil May Cry: 3142? It has a lot of information about the series' first four games as well as other related games. I'm from South America so I can't buy one. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 00:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Artbooks are some of the best sources for video games, as they are published, and often incldue interviews and notes by the creators of the game. Try to see if you can order it via amazon or something like that. Harizotoh9 (talk) 08:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

As you might have seen, Rock, Paper, Shotgun redesigned their website earlier today. However, I'm not sure whether their new logo still fails the threshold of originality. Here's the SVG. What should we do? Anarchyte (work | talk) 12:04, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Remember that RPS is British. The Commons advice is that most UK logos are not acceptable on there. - X201 (talk) 13:13, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Go down the same route as the Edge logo, Same tags etc - X201 (talk) 13:16, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
That seems comparable, yes. Regards SoWhy 13:27, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
It meets the Threshold of Originality even in the US. Those aren't standard characters for those icons, and the application of defects is not an element of the typeface (compare the P's in Paper). Would be non-free. --Masem (t) 13:47, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good. I'll upload a new version to enwiki with all the relevant tags. @Masem: That was my main concern. The fact the characters were modified (even if slightly) and the iconography of the rock, paper, and shotgun. Anarchyte (work | talk) 10:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Game within a game cat?

Was there a category for games that reside in a game?? Govvy (talk) 16:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Category:Minigames.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:02, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
k, cheers, not many games in that category, I added two Atari Lynx games to it know, surely there are a lot more games with mini games built in. Govvy (talk) 18:50, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
That category should probably specify if it includes articles on games that have minigames or if it's just for articles on minigames. If the first, it's very underutilized; if the second, it would likely be empty. --PresN 19:09, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
How would you categorize something like Day of the Tentacle that contains the whole of Maniac Mansion in it? It's not a minigame. - X201 (talk) 19:13, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
This would also apply to Zork 1 which is playable in its entirety in Call of Duty: Black Ops.--76.65.40.44 (talk) 04:17, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Ye, it doesn't exactly have an explanation with it, it just points to the Minigames article, because you do get these games with in games every so often so I was surprised the lack of category use. Are we establishing a mini game or a game within a game? Would a game from the 1980s, 1990s attached to a modern game be classed as a mini game? Govvy (talk) 10:24, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
I do not believe this is a defining characteristic of Zork and Maniac Mansion, and I wouldn't describe them as minigames regardless (but rather as a rerelease within a different video game). The best thing that came to mind for this category is Gwent: The Witcher Card Game, but insanely popular minigames have a habit of turning into full titles. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 09:52, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

In-game commentary as source

Hi. I'm planning an expansion/rewrite/clean-up of the article for Tomb Raider: Anniversary, with the future aim of making it a GA. The game itself contains developer commentary for each level and even areas within a level, done by the game's director Jason Botta and its cinematic designer/co-writer Toby Gard. Due to a variety of circumstances, this game is lacking in sources for its development. Would this in-game commentary be considered a suitable source for a GA-level article? --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't see how it's any different from character quotes, personally. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:11, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
I think definately- it would be totally fine if it was a video of the devs talking while playing the game, (I've used a source like that in an FA), so i don't see that changing the format would be a problem there as far as reliability goes. --PresN 15:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
@PresN: It's player-activated audio-only commentary using icons within the levels which can be turned on by the player. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I figured so (though I thought it was auto-played instead of triggered); physically writing the citation is going to be a pain but I'm still confident that it's acceptable. --PresN 15:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Smart thinking, @ProtoDrake:! Portal and BioShock Remastered comes to mind as well. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 23:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
So does Rare Replay. JOEBRO64 23:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
To the above end, (And provided this is something that would be used more than once), would it make sense to add a field to the Template:Cite video game? One that stated "commentary", or similarly that added a note to the reference explaining where the information was inserted from? Simply saying (From Directors Commentary) after the quote. In the likes of Portal, the commentary is different depending on the scene, so the rest of the identifiers would be right. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
I'd love to see this template fixed up to be more useful, because it's only ever really been used for citing quotes from story heavy games in the past. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:00, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Dissident93 - What other used could we also add? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:16, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
It should be more versatile and allow things like game personal (staff listing) to be properly cited, among other related stuff I can't recall at the moment. Doing so under the "scene" parameter is awkward. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:18, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
I've had to use that technique of citing credits for several articles I've worked on (Drakengard 2, several Fire Emblem titles). Usually there's no other way of citing which personnel worked in what capacity. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:30, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Looking for a script

Is there a script that will automatically reorder footnotes so that they appear in the correct numerical order. For example, fixing [22][20][21] so they are ordered as [20][21][22] Thanks TarkusABtalk 19:38, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

  • I believe AWB does that automatically. Lordtobi (✉) 19:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
    It used to. Enough people crying about it impacting their article caused the developers to turn it off for en.WP or remove it outright. Apparently some fields use citation order to indicate importance? --Izno (talk) 20:04, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
? Consensus at VP is quite a bit stronger than "enough people crying about it", a phrase that is also needlessly condescending.
Tarkus, to your question, I imagine you can customize AWB's genfixes to reinstate the ReorderReferences fix. czar 00:42, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I've never used AWB so maybe I should give it a try. TarkusABtalk 02:57, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

New Articles (July 8, 2018 to July 20, 2018)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 Generated by v1.7 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 04:12, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

July 8, 2018

July 9, 2018

July 10, 2018

July 11, 2018

July 12, 2018

July 13, 2018

July 14, 2018

  • Draft:80s Mania Wrestling Returns (edit talk links history) — Jackson rod stewart

July 15, 2018

July 16, 2018

July 17, 2018

July 18, 2018

  • None

July 19, 2018

July 20, 2018

  • None

Changelog: Split deletions and redirects into two sections. Events conspired to make last week's report so late that I just let it wrap around back to the right day, so it's 2 weeks' worth this time. --PresN 04:12, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Zarlor Mercenary

Okay, I am totally confused, I put two categories on Zarlor Mercenary, the first being Category:Cellular automata in popular culture, well I didn't put that category in originally as User:David Eppstein did that who knows about cellular automata, as I mentioned Zarlor on Conway's Game of Life as a cheat code, so it made sense to be in that category, and as of above I also added Category:Minigames per suggestion, for a mini game being in a game. But User:SnowFire has removed both categories which I was sure was correct. Could I please get some clarification for those categories use on the article please. cheers. Govvy (talk) 21:49, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with Zarlor Mercenary, but unless this easter egg is somehow incredibly pivotal, it seems super distant to qualify for the category. Think of it this way: many, many, many games have some sort of side gambling minigame where you play memory and match like cards, or roll dice, or play slots, or play poker, or bet on gladitorial combat. There's no way that means all Dragon Quest games qualify for Category:Slot machines, or Super Mario Bros. 3 for Category:Matching card games, or the like. In the same way, a game with a Conway's Game of Life easter egg doesn't qualify for the cellular automata category. And that's for much more famous games than an obscure PC game. As for category Minigames, that seems a category more about entire minigames itself. It's not "games that contain minigames", which would be a bad idea for a category anyway as it'd be incredibly subjective and certain people would "help" by adding it to every game imaginable. SnowFire (talk) 22:05, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
But the Cellular automata in popular culture category clearly says "This category lists novels, artworks, computer games, etc., in which cellular automata such as Conway's Game of Life feature prominently." And Conway's Game of Life is certainly a feature of Zarlor! Govvy (talk) 22:15, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Keyword is prominently. Is it particularly known for this in any way? Critical to the story? -- ferret (talk) 22:26, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Prominent is open to interpretation, does everyone who ever brought the game count as Prominent? This is a category which is rather obscure in it's self. What about the couple of million people that brought the Atari Lynx, maybe they are interested. Having Conway's Game of Life on the atari lynx cartridge as a bonus hidden game is pretty unique. How about we remove the word prominently from the category description!! Govvy (talk) 08:27, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure I follow where you went with that. Prominent is certainly open to interpretation but it has nothing to do with who or how many bought a game. In this case though it's pretty clear it's not a defining characteristic of the game, simply a trivia easteregg. -- ferret (talk) 14:39, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
It's prominent enough as a side game to be mentioned in this article; that's why I listed it in the category. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:47, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, SnowFire removed the category saying "very very distant connection here." Which makes no sense to me, it's a perfectly clear connection of being a sub-game within a game. I don't understand why ppl are saying prominent, I bet more ppl know about Conway's game of life on the lynx on this game than some of the few entries on the category. Govvy (talk) 18:13, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
If you have a reliable source that discusses the importance of this version of the Game of Life (aka not , a text file written by an unknown person hosted at a random website), please feel free to stick it in the article, and I won't complain. For an example of what we're looking for, see Poole versus HAL 9000, which while a very minor part of the movie it is in, has reliable sources discussing it. For an example relevant to cellular automata, Permutation City's miniature "Game of Life" is a very important part of its plot that all readers will see, not a secret easter egg that many players won't know about. (Good book, too, you should read it.) SnowFire (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Dam, talk about over analysing a use of a category. You're applying a way over-extended use on WP:N on a category. Categories just need to be correct. I feel your argument is completely floored. An admin included the game in the category, I feel it should be restored into that category. Categories are there to show the collection of shared information, not to over-extended into Notability. Govvy (talk) 19:42, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, we have a different stance on what deserves a place in these categories. Let's take a different topic: should Category:Coca-Cola in popular culture feature every movie / TV show where there's Coke in the background or somebody drinks a Coke? Or should it focus on media that is explicitly about Coke or has it as a key plot point? I say that the category is far more useful if it's curated and only hits the latter, not it-has-a-coke-somewhere. You haven't really sold that this easter egg isn't the equivalent of "people happen to be drinking Coke in the background of a shot." This wouldn't fly on TVTropes, let alone Wikipedia. SnowFire (talk) 20:13, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
And how about The Mutant Virus: Crisis in a Computer World, there is no source for the category inclusion, you have failed to remove the category from this game. How is the game any less of an impact as any of the other entries in the category? Each other item, game, book or person, how do you way up their inclusion over WP:N? There is a extreme lack of citations throughout, yet you choose to remove Zarlor Mercenary from the category without any due weight on the other topical entries? I am not a lawyer, but I way in that you have a biased point of view. Also, not actually pointed out in the game, but in fact Zarlor Mercenary uses a short timer of cellular automata dispersal code for enemy ships when blown up. There is multiple uses of this type of code among a lot of games, however I am drawn back to the fact that, Conway's Game of Life is available to play on the Atari Lynx in a very pure form. I would say that is prominent to the Atari Lynx, can you get the game on any other hand held games machine?
And a cheat code is to cheat in a game, loading up the sub game, via a coded set of button pressing? This is not an easter-egg either. The citation for Conway's Game of Life associated with Zarlor tells a reader how access this other program, and how the instructions on how to use the software. AtariAge.com is a very good source for Atari Information, yes it's community based, but generally I consider it a reliable source of information. Govvy (talk) 21:07, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
If it's a non-defining trait of other games, it should be removed from those articles too. czar 04:14, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

andriasang.com

It's cited on many pages, they give summaries of Japanese language articles in English. WP:VG/S lists it as reliable. My question is: Wouldn't it just make more sense to cite the actual original Japanese article directly? andriasang isn't really reporting anything, just translating and summarizing, thus it isn't really a news source at all, but a translation service. They're also giving condensed summaries rather than direct ones. They also appear to only be using the online versions of the news sites, so these can be accessed by anyone.

So if we were to just replace andriasang reference with the original Japanese news article, nothing would be lost. It would contain the exact same information, and Famitsu, Game watch, etc are all high quality reliable sources. None of the in-article text would need to be changed.

For example, on the MT_Framework article, the andriasang article could be swapped out for the Game Watch original, and none of the article's text would need to be changed.

The site can provide a valuable resource by giving summaries and news from Japanese sites, which are difficult to navigate and search for non-Japanese readers. So I feel the site should play a support role, rather than a direct one. So use the site to look for news articles and sources, and to give some understanding of what the original Japanese article stated, but don't cite the site directly, and instead use the original source.

The site is now dead, and appears to be a self-published blog. All the posts are listed under the "blog" section of the site, and it appears to be written by one person. I have a real wariness about using self-published blog type sites in general, and would prefer to avoid that. The original Japanese sites are very high quality, and I also feel that the original Japanese sites should be given more credit on Wikipedia for their reporting. And I feel that WP users should try to get more out of their "safe zone" and use more sources from different languages.

This may result in new users having more difficulty verifying the sources. Ease of verification is not a strict Wikipedia rule that I'm aware of per se. Any reliable source in any language can be used anywhere on any language Wikipedia. It just tends to be that the language of the sources tend to correspond to the language of the Wikipedia due to the user-base and ease of use. In any case, I don't think it presents an impossible barrier. There's tools like Google translate. Though it is imperfect, it can give you enough of an idea about an article and basic facts cited to ensure that it is not being mis-used. And since the WP user-base is big enough, there will be enough users who speak English and Japanese so that if there is a dispute over a translation of a news source, that user can then investigate.

So I propose that the links to andriasang.com should be replaced with links to the original Japanese language news articles. Harizotoh9 (talk) 06:07, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

@Harizotoh9: The principle is sound, but there's an immediate problem. Several of the times I've used Andriasang, they have A: used print sources such as Famitsu and Dengeki which are now difficult to track down for proper citations, and B: given more concrete and accurately translated information than other sites reporting the same story from the same print source. I'm aware about the issue with self-published blogs as a source (had to negotiate that during my work on Titan Quest), and - I think this was discussed before - Andrisang was allowed because it was the work of a noted video game journalist rather than a different individual. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:48, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, how about reduce the reliance on the site unless needed? If no other source can be found keep it. I have nothing against the site itself, I just feel that the original source should be given priority over translations. I consider it more of a translation tool than a news site in itself.
I've noticed that there seems to be two types of articles on the site. One in which the author directly links to a news article on a Japanese language site, and then gives a summary, and another one where the author does not seem to site any source. For the first type, it makes sense to just link to the original article. For the second, it seems the author is relying upon print sources. It might make sense to keep the Andriasang site.
As an experiment, I checked a few pages to see how Andriasang is actually being used. I'm finding it's used often to cite rather readily available information that can be found elsewhere. Two examples.
The two examples above the citation can be swapped out for something else without any loss or changes to the article. Harizotoh9 (talk) 10:39, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
That sounds fine. It was just the idea of replacing all the Andriasang links that was ringing bells. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:28, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
As a matter of principle, I think it's good practice to include a reliable translation of any non-English language source, if available, within the citation, even if it's not strictly required. As for Andriasang in particular, it's not merely a "self-published blog" as you say. It was a well-respected source used within the industry and run by a well-regarded member of the industry (Anoop Gantayat) who has years of experience and credentials to show for it. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:03, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Correct, Anoop has a lot of experience writing for RS’s like IGN prior to branching off to start his own website, and was frequently cited by other sources in the industry. Im also very against removing all links. It’d be a lot if work to fix something that isn’t broken. There’s so many more productive things to be worked on... Sergecross73 msg me 20:45, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Super Mario Bros. 3

The 30th anniversary of its release is on October 23, 2018. This would be an ideal time to run this on the front page as a FA. It's currently a GA article. With work it could be FA before October. Harizotoh9 (talk) 09:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I found a Nintendo Life review that should be added to the reception (6 reviews seem super small.) Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:22, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Also retro nintendo reviews, Flying Omelette if these are RS Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Ooh, and a cool Kotaku entry on the legacy of SMB3 Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:25, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Lacking contemporary coverage. Seems there are only two reviews in the article, CVG and Mean Machines. Definitely need more than that, and the retrospective reviews should be separated from the contemporary ones. TarkusABtalk 18:13, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I added Famitsu's score of the game. Harizotoh9 (talk) 13:13, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

FYI - It's slated to be one of the game's that comes with the new Nintendo Switch Online service as well, so there's bound to be an influx of interest in the game soon too, in terms of both source coverage and readership of the Wikipedia article. Sergecross73 msg me 13:27, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2018

Change the line "Forsaken will have a large overhual on gameplay" in Release to "Forsaken will have a large overhaul on gameplay", please. 79.234.148.161 (talk) 16:42, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

I assume you meant the typo in Destiny 2? Fixed. Regards SoWhy 16:45, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Detroit: Become Human

There is a content dispute regarding Detroit: Become Human which has spilled over to ANI. Please help resolve it at Talk:Detroit: Become Human. --Izno (talk) 23:16, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

If anyone from here could help resolve a 50/50 split in achieving a consensus over at Talk:Detroit: Become Human#Adam Williams would be much appreciated. I'm not advocating for any outcome in particular I would just like to see the content dispute be closed before anyone gets in trouble with excess reverting, etc. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 20:35, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Actors in plot summaries

FYI
 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film#Proposed MoS change: actors' names (not) in plot sections

Gist: MOS:FILM and MOS:TV are in conflict about whether to give actors' names in plot summaries.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:59, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Pretty certain the VG consensus falls on the “not” side, FYI. Sergecross73 msg me 03:13, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Do we? I know we don't like using tables and lists, but I've seen this done in GA/FAs and just assumed that's the proper way we should handle it for VG articles. Either way, I think we should follow whatever the other MOS decide on, as there is no reason to have separate consensus here. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 15:18, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I think there may have been a general lean here at WT:VG to exclude but it has certainly crept into many game articles, including GA/FAs, and no one has really made an effort to do anything to remove. -- ferret (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not reading any particularly strong opinions on the matter here either, to be honest. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 17:38, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I don’t have actors names in the plot summaries in a single one of the hundreds of articles I’ve created or maintained, and would generally uncontroversially revert if anyone would attempt to do it, so these sorts of responses are surprising to me. Sergecross73 msg me
Really? The Last of Us (a FA) and Horizon Zero Dawn (a GA) immediately comes to mind. However, I don't think I've ever really seen it in Japanese game articles, which is what we both seem to prefer editing. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
The only time we really include VAs is if the game includes people from outside the usual stable of VAs (eg Brutal Legend), 3rd party RSes draw attention to at least one or two (by then where the rest are included for completeness), or when we've got sourced content focused on a specific character so including the VA for that character is necessary for comprehension. As such, most of the time those names do not need to enter into the plot for any real reason. --Masem (t) 17:52, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think it's necessary in any instance for it to be used in a plot summary. If it's important, it should be more highly mentioned in the gameplay and release sections. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:58, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
How is cast information relevant for gameplay, i.e. how the game is played? Personally, I think the way Brütal Legend does it with a characters sub-section before the plot section in a synopsis section makes the most sense. Regards SoWhy 10:09, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, my mistake, that was supposed to read "characters", not gameplay. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:12, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, the point was to add your views at the MOS:FILM thread, since it may impact the matter cross-genre/cross-medium, rather than fork a new thread here. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:21, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

snesmusic dot org

It's used as a citation on something like 200 pages, mostly for composer credits. First problem, is that it's a fan site. The bigger problem, is that it contains downloads of the game's soundtracks in SPC format, which is part of the rom. Thus, it violates copyright law, and can't be used as a citation on Wikipedia. It's a kind of romsite, one that's stripping the rom down to just the music. The information is likely correct, so it should remain, but the site should be purged from Wikipedia. Harizotoh9 (talk) 11:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

If the site is WP:COPYVIOEL, then all the links can be removed. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 13:56, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
It is. But it's like 200 something links. I've removed one, but it'll be a chore to remove them all. Harizotoh9 (talk) 14:34, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
That's just how it goes. There's just not enough of us to policy every non-RS usage on the site. Same problem with Gamefaqs and MobyGames. Both are uncontroversially unreliable sources by anyone who understands policy, but they're still used all over the in all sorts of obscure video game articles. You've got to make a choice on whether or not its important enough to take on the chore of removing them all, or just opting to remove them as you see them. Sergecross73 msg me 14:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Funny you mention that since, I planned to phase out Mobygames and gamefaqs later on. Mobygames is really kind of a fan-wiki. Harizotoh9 (talk) 14:48, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure we've long agreed Mobygames is a no-no as a ref, but perfectly fine as an EL, especially for older games. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 15:40, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, this is correct, I believe that there's loose support/apathy for it being allowed as an EL at least. Good point. Sergecross73 msg me 17:28, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
If every movie article can have its IMDb link...... Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 17:46, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not contesting it, I fall more on the apathy side of things. I just meant that it did seem like there were a few opposed, but overall, it had support. Sergecross73 msg me 17:52, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
If you believe the information to be credible but simply lacking a better source, you can try using WP:AWB to replace the references with {{citation needed}}. I have done that before with an unreliable source. There are some gotchas where you have to be careful with the regex find/replace (notably, re-used references). --Izno (talk) 15:27, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
As a member of the VGM community, I'd say the credits actually being cited there are usually correct (as people have to play through the game to know where the musical tracks are, therefore confirming the credits if they play through it fully). However, it is user-generated and outdated with some errors, so it shouldn't be used as a source here. I'd instead use it to get a general idea who the composer should be, then find a better source confirming it. Also, I don't think the fact it hosts SPC sets (basically ROMs striped of everything but the music data) is relevant here, as you could use this same logic for any article that has copyrighted photos or videos. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
See WP:LINKVIO, the first two paragraphs address what you're talking about. The short version is that, no, we should be linking to websites that are illegally distributing content like music or roms. Sergecross73 msg me 17:28, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough, even though the content being cited has nothing to do with copyright. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Remove 'em. It's clearly a fansite that doesn't have editorial policies or credible writers. If the information is accurate, remove it and either find a reliable source that verifies it or cite the game credits themselves. And speaking of ROM distribution, Nintendo just sued LoveROMs and LoveRetro! JOEBRO64 17:59, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
    • It's a database of SNES soundtrack dumps that articles are using to cite composer info, it has nothing to do with editorial writing. But yes, if the information is accurate (which it mostly is, see my post above), then it shouldn't be too hard to find reliable sources for the same info. Failing that, you could always just cite the game's OST or ending credits as a last resort. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:10, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

(Re)assessment request and GA nomination?

Quick question: Say if I expand a Start-class article and nominate it for GA, should I also request reassessment from the VG-WikiProject-template (since the Start-rating no longer applies) or should I wait for the GAN to be decided and then request reassessment if the GAN failed? Regards SoWhy 10:30, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

I'd leave it. I can't see why we'd want it reviewed twice. If someone reviewed a GA, but failed it, I'd like to think they would update the assessment to B or C, if it met those criteria. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
GA is GA. An article ought not be a GA and also be another lower rating for a particular project. If an article does pass GA, but fails say, B criteria for a project, then the GA was probably lax, and the article should be reassessed and the issues fixed or the article demoted. If the article fails GA initially, I would recommend WP:PR and then renomination. For article ratings below GA, IMO they're as often as not mostly arbitrary, and have as much or more to do with the rater as they do with the article. Whether the article meets GA, A or FA is really the only thing that should be the least bit concerning to most anybody. GMGtalk 10:49, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I was told over a year ago that the reassessment tag is unnecessary for GANs because someone's going to review it either way. JOEBRO64 18:01, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Anyone can reassess articles in the wikiproject tags without a second opinion. You shouldn't set it to GA/FA without it actually passing that process, but anything short of that is fine. Reassessment is specifically if you're unsure of what the rating should be; if you're pretty confident that it's a B-class (and if you're nominating it for GAN then I'd presume you are...) then you can just make it a B and move on. --PresN 03:48, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Japanese sources:

I'd like to see users make more use of Japanese sources in their articles instead of relying only on English speaking sources. Here are a few readily available online sites:

- Has an online database of games since the magazine started. Good for basic information about the game (Japanese name, release date, company, genre, etc). Also many include the review score. Their archive goes back very far, so it's nice to get review scores for games from the 80's or 90's, that often have few magazine reviews in the article.

- Newer game news site.

- Noticed the archives only go back as far as the PS2 era. Harizotoh9 (talk) 01:35, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Famitsu is pretty heavily used in JRPG articles in my experience, though that’s generally just whatever English sources cover of it. I think it’s just a practicality thing. We should use sources of all languages. But most of us just understand and read English, so that’s what we add to articles. Also keep in mind that you can preach as much as you want on this talk page, but you’re really only reaching out to the most hardcore 15-20 video game editors active and monitoring this at the moment. There’s hundreds of casual mid-core editors that don’t read this or even know what a Wikiproject is. So requests like this are often hard to get anywhere with... Sergecross73 msg me 02:10, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I second Sergecross's suggestion to chill the f out with the broad sweeping policy edicts on WT:VG (this is your 3rd in 3 days). If you want to meticulously comb through and replace ain't-broke-don't-fix sources, be my guest, but you're not deputizing me and unlikely to galvanize anyone else without a Strong Policy Reason like copyvio or BLP. Axem Titanium (talk) 06:38, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I third that. You're welcome to incorporate reliable sources in other languages, but imploring others to do so is somewhat odd. Maybe by phrasing it differently ("I am going to add more Japanese sources, what do you think?" - "awesome, good idea!") might help. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 07:37, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
  • This is the English Wikipedia, so English sources will always be preferred over non-English ones. What even is your issue here? How does using 4gamer or Famitsu over any English RS that covers the same topic benefit anything? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:29, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
  • There's no issue with using other reliable sources not written in English. But, I'm unsure of what the request is. If there is a source from a reliable source, add it. We shouldn't be removing reliable sources, simply to have these websites listed instead. There's an argument for SP:SODOIT here, if something is unsourced, and you can source it, do so. The exact same thing could be said for print sources, we should, potentially use more of these. However, practically, it's hard work to do this, which is the same with other language sources.
I'd also mention, that Famitsu is used quite a bit as a source already. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
  • All these are reliable sources and are used in tons of articles, and are just as good as English sources. JOEBRO64 12:38, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Question regarding Final Fantasy IV

I recently noticed that at Talk:Final Fantasy IV that the article is labeled as a Sports and recreation good article. Is there any reason that it is not listed as a video game one or is there something that I am overlooking?--76.65.40.44 (talk) 05:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I managed to do a bit of digging and found out how to change the listing for IV. If someone thinks it should in fact be listed as a sports and recreation good article rather than a video game one fell free to change it back. Otherwise this issue has been fixed.--76.65.40.44 (talk) 06:05, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
More than likely, just a typo. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:45, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Lee (Hey Lee, I see you in every random place I visit on the project lately!), I think you are free to be WP:BOLD on this one, IP 76. Snow let's rap 08:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Hi Snow Rise, I was thinking the same thing! I edit a weird cross-section of articles; always nice to see a friendly wikipedian wherever you go. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:46, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Same, and likewise! Tonight, as I had a few hours to spare, decided to trawl through the WikiProject indexes looking for some work that needs doing. Seems like a habit of yours too. Snow let's rap 08:57, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
I like to keep numbers down. Still relatively new to Wikipedia, as I haven't been editing a full year. Picking up new fun things to do everyday. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:31, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Rewrote Quantic Dream

Peer reviews take too long. Is there anything missing in your opinion? Nominating for good article status. Cognissonance (talk) 18:48, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2018

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