Talk:Banderite

In "Fofudja" enwiki and ukwiki the followwing primary source is cited to support the date 2006:

Ізвініте что вьінужден пісать гадкімі малоросійскімі(ябьі сказал мікроросійскімі) буквамі но злобньіе жидобандервци вирвалі все клавіши с русскімі буквамі плоскорубцамі і сожглі іх.

Вьі даже не представляете на какіе страданія оні обрекают нас русскоязичних.В городе невозможно купіть водкі! Только іх бандеровская горілка! Єто ужастно, я боюсь ее піть она действітельно горіт, прічем сінім пламенем. Совершенно нет редькі і каваса, оні запрещеньі. Ми винуждени варіть і піть брагу, другіх ісконно русскіх напітков просто нет. От недостатка алкоголя многіе болеют і умірают. Нас насільно заставляют есть єті ужастньіе врньікьі!

"Please forgive me for using these disgusting Little Russian (I would even call them Micro Russian) letters, but evil Kike-Banderites pulled with pliers all the keys with Russian characters out of the keyboard and burned them. You can't even imagine all the suffering they put the Russophones through!"^[1]

Since it is primary, I didn't cite it here, leaving the {{cn}}. A secondary source is needed to avoid WP:OR. --Altenmann >talk 22:44, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

LiveJournal is a social network/blog and shouldn't be used as a source at all. Nakonana (talk) 19:31, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

Correct, that's why I am asking for help. Yes LiveJournal can be used as a primary source, but only as a confirmation of a ref coming from a secondary source. --Altenmann >talk 23:27, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

I think this is incorrect, a blog is fine as a primary source per WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD-- it is actually the best available source for getting something close to a date. The source on those wiki's can be cited in my opinion and Hrytsak's work linked below can be cited as the explanation, specifying that this was just the earliest found mention. Hrytsak moots rumours of the term being from 2004. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:95CB:3B30:CC19:4B76 (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

This source provides a detailed account by a Ukrainian scholar and they managed to trace it back to 2009: https://uamoderna.com/blogy/yaroslav-griczak/zhydobanderivci/

You can use Gemini's Deep Research tool to scour the web across multiple languages. I've found it invaluable for finding some really excellent sources that I would never have otherwise found. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:95CB:3B30:CC19:4B76 (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

Well, 2009 is not early enough and Hrytsak moots only Russian propaganda, which alleges that євромайданівці (Euromaidanites (is this a correct English term?)) proudly embraced the term, but not the origin of the term. --Altenmann >talk 18:58, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

Yes Euromaidanites would be something English speakers might do but there's not enough discourse about it for us to need such a word-- I think we'd just say "Euromaidan activists/ supporters". The only common usage I know of is things like "Blairite" to refer to the politics of Tony Blair since there is otherwise not a good fit. Am I right in thinking it's more common in Eastern Europe?

With this source and the blog post we can write something like: "Historian Yaroslav Hrytsak traced the term back to having predated 2009, with there being a mention of the term online as far back as 2006."

Since we're directly referring to a primary source and this talk page could serve as a reference in that it's come from the Ukrainian page where others have searched more extensively, I think this might be fine? They're only guidelines at the end of the day. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:95CB:3B30:CC19:4B76 (talk) 22:24, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

I've asked on the Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Origins of Judeo-Banderite meme to see what they think of the following proposal:

Yaroslav Hrytsak traced the usage of the term back to 2009, concluding that it likely predated this instance.^[2] There is a mention of the term as far back as 2006 in a comment under a post by online satirist Professor Ivan Denikin [ukr] in the Ukrainian internet community Fofudja.^[3][4] Joko2468 (talk) 01:22, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

We do not need Hrytsak's incomplete quest, because Semenyuk is quite good. The only problem I do not see how prof. I.Denikin is relaated to zhydobanderiotes. --Altenmann >talk 02:34, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Аналогічно й творчість професора Денікіна («Шлях Лумумби, або НАШІ в Конго», «Сокира Олекси Довбуша», «За наше дєло. Архів професора Денікіна» й інші) безпосередньо пов’язана із феноменом фофудії й споріднена з ним.

• Similarly, the work of Professor Denikin (“Lumumba’s Path, or OUR in Congo”, “Olexa Dovbush’s Axe”, “For Our Cause. Professor Denikin’s Archive” and others) is directly related to the phenomenon of fofudia and is related to it.

I don't speak Ukrainian and the translation quality is poor so please tell me if I've misinterpreted this. I thought we might need Hrytsak's work to justify/ contextualise the use of a primary source, it's the best secondary source that tracks the term's origins providing a date. Unless you're saying that we shouldn't use the LiveJournal source? In that case, Denikin isn't relevant it was just context for the Judeo-Banderite comment posted in his community (it's in response to his post). I think we should have a date for it though. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:95CB:3B30:CC19:4B76 (talk) 02:47, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Translation of the above quote: "Similarly, the work of Professor Denikin ("Lumumba's Path, or OURS (=our people) in Congo", "Oleksa Dovbush's Axe", "For Our Cause. Archive of Professor Denikin", among others) is also directly connected to the phenomenon of fofudia and is related to it." Nakonana (talk) 15:13, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, so saying Denikin is part of Fofudja is incorrect? Semenyuk gives more details on the history/usage of the term in the community so that link could be better covered in a following sentence. It's a shame that Semenyuk doesn't appear to provide a date, otherwise this would be a lot simpler. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 15:31, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

The earliest mention of the term I found is from 2004, Kelob2678 (talk) 14:19, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Nice although I think we're looking for an ironic use of the term? The idea of "Jewish Banderites" as a pejorative has been traced back as far as a 1981 cartoon. Joko2468 (talk) 14:44, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

The cartoon doesn't use the term. Kelob2678 (talk) 14:46, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Ah okay so we could add this to the sentence on its original usage. Joko2468 (talk) 14:48, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Add what? If cartoon, then it is irrellevant: it does not show a judeobanderite: it shows a Zionist and Banderite pulling the same anti-Soviet caravann. --Altenmann >talk 16:59, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

The cartoon is already cited in the article-- I was suggesting the 2004 comment could be added onto the end of that. This thread is focused on the ironic usage though so we should focus on that. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 17:03, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

And I removed the cartoon from the article as coming from a non-reliable source: a dubious opinion of an unknown author of the post at a website of unknown editorial oversight. --Altenmann >talk 17:09, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

It is used in a reader's comment so it cannot be used as a ref, only as a reminder for further search. --Altenmann >talk 16:59, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

This proves that the term originated earlier than 2006 and the lead of the ukwiki article is factually incorrect. Regarding WP:V, the article can use the chronology from Hrytsak, knowing that the term already existed in 2004. Kelob2678 (talk) 17:32, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

I think we should focus on the ironic usage for now-- we can sort out its origins as a pejorative afterwards. This discussion is specifically about its origins in Fofudja. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 17:47, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Hrytsak explicitly argues against this interpretation claiming that 'kike-banderites' (proper translation) was pejorative in 2014. And it was Russian liberals who wanted to pretend otherwise. Kelob2678 (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Ah okay thank you so that's not a good source then? Semenyuk (2013) cited below proves otherwise right? 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 17:55, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Semenyuk was a PhD student when he wrote his paper, while Yaroslav Hrytsak is a history professor. Kelob2678 (talk) 18:00, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Okay thank you but Semenyuk didn't fabricate the fact that it was used ironically and we have proof of that from 2006. I'm not saying we shouldn't also highlight its history as a pejorative-- we should, especially if that was the true origin of the term. I'm just talking about first agreeing on a sentence about Fofudja and its usage ironically so we're not working tangentially. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 18:07, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

As I understand it, the term originated among anti-Ukrainian Russians and was used as early as 2004. In 2006, Ukrainians attempted to reappropriate it (Semenyuk), but failed. So in 2014 it was still pejorative (Hrytsak). Additional attempts were made after Russia attacked Ukraine (refs in the article), but they also failed so Russians continued to label Ukrainians as judeo-banderites even after the full-scale invasion (needs references, for example this) Kelob2678 (talk) 18:15, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

I see, this is more complicated than I appreciated. Okay but if we just focus on 2004/2006-->2014, we can present both Hrytsak's argument and the ironic usage/ reappropriation. I think we have to present both popular origins side by side and just say it's disputed. Whether it was a slur that became ironic and back into a slur or an ironic meme that became a slur-- there's no way of knowing and we should present both POV's per WP:NPOV.

To clarify, something like:

Yaroslav Hrytsak argues that the term has principally been used as a pejorative, tracing its heritage as far back as 1907-1909 to the usage of zhydomazepynets (Judeo-Mazepists).

(If this is an accurate translation, I don't know that I've understood his argument particularly well). I'll do some more reading about this. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Fialkova & Yelenevskaya (2016) p.115 would support the assertion that the term is both a slur and used ironically as a form of self-identification.

• Note that zhidokatsapskii moskal’ is a counterpart of the term zhidobanderovets that we mentioned above. Both are used as slurs but also as ironic and sometimes proud self-identification markers

2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 23:47, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

To clarify, my claim that the Ukrainian campaigns "failed" shouldn't be included in the article because it fails WP:V. My concern is that we should avoid WP:SYNTH with respect to the statement that Russians have never used the term or stopped the usage.

On an unrelated note, mentioning Denikin in the article is undue and confusing. I initially thought that he is somehow related to Anton Denikin and not just an anonymous Internet user. Kelob2678 (talk) 08:04, 26 September 2025 (UTC)

Okay it was just context for the comment. And yeah that was the point (he claims to be a relation)-- it said "online satirist". But I agree it's not really relevant. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 09:44, 26 September 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. A comment on a post can be cited, we just have to make that clear and use the comment's date (see how I've done it below). What do you think of this as an addition? Please tell me if I've misunderstood Semenyuk.

There is an ironic mention of the term as far back as 2006 in a comment under a LiveJournal post by online satirist Professor Ivan Denikin [ukr].^[5][6] References to Judeo-Banderites (zhydobanderivtsi) became popular as part of the Fofudja internet meme where it was used to mock Great Russian chauvinism.^[6]

2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0FC:F6E1:9573:8B19 (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

I've started a new topic since the one above is a little messy (tagging Altenmann and Kelob2678). On reflection I don't think it's appropriate to use the primary sources since we would have to present both the slur and ironic usage and that then constitutes an original point as to the chronology. It'd be nice to have a date but maybe a vague timespan is most accurate for now.

Here's my proposed edit in light of that:

Yaroslav Hrytsak argues that the term 'Yid-Banderite' (zhydobanderivtsi) has principally been used as a slur, tracing its heritage as far back as 1907–1909 to the usage of 'zhydomazepynets ' (Yid-Mazepists).^[1] References to Yid-Banderites became part of the Fofudja internet meme where the term was used ironically to mock Ukrainophobia and Great Russian chauvinism.^[2] In the aftermath of the Revolution of Dignity, the term saw usage, for the most part, as a way for Ukrainian Jews to identify themselves with Ukrainian nationalists, express support for Ukrainian sovereignty, and mock people who accused the new government of antisemitism.^[3] Since 2014, Yid-Banderite has seen use as a slur, ironically, and sometimes as a marker of proud self-identification.^[4]

2A00:23C5:11E:F901:E9B9:7858:605C:F680 (talk) 20:35, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Another matter might be to change "Judeo-Banderite" to a more accurate translation-- is Yid-Banderite more correct? 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:E9B9:7858:605C:F680 (talk) 20:36, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Also Yid-Banderite is a reasonable replacement. I've seen the term "Kike-Banderite" in article Fofudja. Needs unification. --Altenmann >talk 21:54, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

[Edited to incorporate these changes and to better represent source.] I'll probably add it later today if there are no objections. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:E9B9:7858:605C:F680 (talk) 11:34, 30 September 2025 (UTC)