Talk:Bantu peoples

Why are we removing the link demonstrating DNA affinities? This is relevant

Antonio Salas et al., The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape, Am J Hum Genet. 2002 November; 71(5): 1082–1111. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC385086/

Why are we removing the information regarding ethnic conflict with Tutsi/hima and Nilo-Saharan? This is also very relevant:

Present Demography- The Bantu family is fragmented into hundreds of individual groups comprising a population of over 400 million people (approximately half the population of Sub-Saharan Africa) predominating demographically, culturally, linguistically and politically in a contiguous zone throughout all of Sub-Equatorial Africa, specifically all the nineteen nations of Central, Southeastern and Southern Africa: Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Republic of Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, Angola, Namibia, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, South Africa, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique, Lesotho and Swaziland. In Kenya and Uganda there are also significant remaining ancestral Nilo-Saharan speaking communities, as these countries were the final points of the Bantu migration, and this cultural diversity has often led to ethnic conflict over the years for political and cultural dominance. ^{[1] [2] [3] [4]} Remaining ethno-cultural diversity following the Bantu migration is also arguably the trigger for much of the violence in the Great Lakes region, with pastoralist and historically Afro-Asiatic communities such as the Tutsi, Banyankole,and Hima (who only later adopted Bantu languages) in historical conflict over the struggle for political representation and land with the later Bantu migrants in the region. ^{[5] [6] [7] [8]} The Sub-Equatorial African island nations of Madagascar, Comoros, Seychelles, and Mauritius off the southeastern coast of Africa and São Tomé and Príncipe off the southwestern coast of Africa also include some Bantu communities, although other foreign cultural elements due to the migration of French, Portuguese, Arab, Indian and Southeast Asian settlers predominate in these nations. ^{[9] [10]}

Please give a reason before further edit changes please.

Mitochondrial and Y DNA does not show an individual's full ancestry. In actual fact, the Tutsi have very little Afro-Asiatic ancestry and are instead closely related to the Hutu:

"generations of gene flow obliterated whatever clear-cut physical distinctions may have once existed between these two Bantu peoples – renowned to be height, body build, and facial features. With a spectrum of physical variation in the peoples, Belgian authorities legally mandated ethnic affiliation in the 1920s, based on economic criteria. Formal and discrete social divisions were consequently imposed upon ambiguous biological distinctions. To some extent, the permeability of these categories in the intervening decades helped to reify the biological distinctions, generating a taller elite and a shorter underclass, but with little relation to the gene pools that had existed a few centuries ago. The social categories are thus real, but there is little if any detectable genetic differentiation between Hutu and Tutsi." -- Joseph C. Miller (ed.), New Encyclopedia of Africa, Volume 2, Dakar-Hydrology, Charles Scribner's Sons (publisher)

It also goes without saying that the Tutsi do not speak Afro-Asiatic languages, so they are likely not Afro-Asiatic remnants. That would instead be the Iraqw. Also, when you write of "ethnically and linguistically related ethnic groups in Africa" and then link that phrase to the demographics of Africa page, you are insinuating that all the myriad populations listed there are ethnically and linguistically related. This is both completely off-topic and obviously untrue. Middayexpress (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Tutsi ydna does not show Afro-asiatic affinities; the mtdna does Michael C. Campbell­, Sarah A. Tishkoff, African Genetic Diversity: Implications for Human Demographic History, Modern Human Origins, and Complex Disease Mapping, Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics Vol. 9 (Volume publication date September 2008)(doi:10.1146/annurev.genom.9.081307.164258) this paper also notes the relative homogeneity of bantu groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

here is the link http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm familiar with that paper. It's not on mtDNA per se, but does suggest that the Tutsi are similar to the Maasai and other Nilotic groups with some Cushitic admixture. Middayexpress (talk) 19:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I am not willing to engage in a talk discussion with you if you keep reverting things over and over again.

(1) Half of Subsaharan Africa - please stop reverting this without cause (2) Tutsi Afro-Asiatic Affinities- I have provided two DNA sources you have provided NONE please do not revert otherwise (3) Bantu homogeneity-I have provided two DNA sources you have provided NONE please do not revert otherwise (4) Present Demography title-this section is about present demography, the whole article is about demographics so to change it otherwise makes no sense — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Please let us resolve this on the talk page before reverting again. The onus is on you to provide comparable contradicting sources. DNA trumps oral history in this case about genetic affiliations and you have not provided any. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 19:36, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid you have to engage in talk page discussion per the WP:BRD cycle. That said:

1) The 400 million figure for the number of Bantu peoples is actually unsourced. It's also completely at odds with the figure supplied in the Butt reference in the first line of the lede. That cites only 100 something million Bantu speakers.

2) The references you have cited do not support the claims you are making. Neither asserts that the Tutsi were originally Afro-Asiatic speakers who absorbed Bantu influences, but in fact the contrary; they assert that the Tutsi were Bantu peoples who absorbed Afro-Asiatic influences. Here's an example of this, from the very paper you linked to above: "Nilo-Saharan and Cushitic speakers from the Sudan, Kenya and Tanzania, as well as some of the Bantu speakers from Kenya, Tanzania and Rwanda (Hutu/Tutsi) constitute another cluster (purple), reflecting linguistic evidence for gene flow amongst these populations over the past ~5,000 years (27, 28)."

3) Though most Bantu are homogenous, there is some internal diversity among them because of the existence of mixed Bantu groups like the Tutsi. The authors also state this (please see the #2 above).

4) Fine. Middayexpress (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I am more than happy to engage in a talk page discussion but NOT if you are reverting massive amounts of sourced materials at the same time. Please stop reverting and talk first here that is what I am saying. Point by point.

1) the butt article is outdated. the African population has increased 5x over the past 50 years, so it is currently 400 million. You need to go and add the populations of the 19 predominately bantu countries and it reaches over 400 million not including Cameroon or the Island nations, and excluding the non-bantu populations of south Africa, Uganda and Kenya. the butt article is from 2006 but references far outdated statistics.

2) The DNA is Afro-asiatic. So how did it get there? I agree to changing it to Afro-asiatic ethnic group and note that their linguistic affiliation is unclear. I can add another reference from discover magazine regarding the fact that they adopted the bantu language

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/

although the article argues they were previously Nilo-Saharan speaking. So perhaps we can state that they are afro-aisatic genetically but Nilo-Saharan speaking linguistically. Would that be okay with you?

"What does this mean? I think the title says it all: the Tutsi were in all likelihood once a Nilotic speaking population, who switched to the language of the Bantus amongst whom they settled, and from whom they extracted rents."

3)from Salas: "

The AMOVA analysis performed on the 16 Bantu-speaking populations analyzed in the present work showed that almost all the genetic variation (98.8%) was found to be within populations, with the remaining 1.2% between populations (but not significantly different from 0; P=.103). These results again reflect the very high level of genetic homogeneity among these populations. "

The bantu although incorporating many diverse elements due to their common origin ARE VERY RELATIVELY HOMOGENOUS

From Salas scientific DNA study:

'The AMOVA analysis performed on the 16 Bantu-speaking populations analyzed in the present work showed that almost all the genetic variation (98.8%) was found to be within populations, with the remaining 1.2% between populations (but not significantly different from 0; P=.103). These results again reflect the very high level of genetic homogeneity among these populations.

AMOVA analysis was also applied to the whole African data set, using several designs:

1.

Taking all the African populations separately, 79.2% of the variability occurs within populations, whereas 20.8% of the variability occurs between populations.

2.

Grouping the populations by main geographic areas, 10.6% between groups, 12.5% between populations within groups, and 76.9% for variance within groups.

3.

Considering the main groups of African languages (Afroasiatic, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Khoisan), similar values were obtained for the variation within groups (76.8%), but 18.9% was found to occur between populations within groups, with the remaining 4.3% corresponding with differences between groups. (This last was not significantly different from 0; P=.068.)

4.

When populations were grouped into Bantu versus non-Bantu, a similar apportionment of genetic variation was found: 74.9% within populations, 17.2% among populations within groups, and 7.9% among groups.

Therefore, it seems that, in Africa, geography plays an important role in defining differences between the main groups, whereas language plays a lesser role.

The Salas paper which YOU KEEP REMOVING WITHOUT ANY REASON notes this relative homogeneity over and over again. The Bantu groups are very closely related even though they incorporated many other khoisan, Afro-asiatic and Nilotic elements during their migrations. This is consistent with their relatively recent common origin at the border of eastern Nigeria and Cameroon. That is the whole point of the article, it is very strange that you are arguing this without any references or contradicting DNA evidence. " I am giving you links and DNA references you are giving my original research. Please do not revert again without backing up your claims.

1) the butt article is outdated. the African population has increased 5x over the past 50 years, so it is currently 400 million. You need to go and add the populations of the 19 predominately bantu countries and it reaches over 400 million not including Cameroon or the Island nations, and excluding the non-bantu populations of south Africa, Uganda and tanzania

Actually, per WP:BURDEN, the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. In any event:

1) The Butt book was published in 2006. You may nonetheless have a point here going by the national population figures alone. Do you have a reference for the 400 million figure?

2) As explained, none of the sources claim that the Tutsi are genetically Afro-Asiatic. They claim that either a) the Tutsi are Bantu like the Hutu albeit with a significant amount of Afro-Asiatic (Cushitic) admixture (please see quote above), or b) the Tutsi are Nilotic like the Maasai and similarly have a significant amount of Afro-Asiatic (Cushitic) admixture. Blogs also aren't reliable sources.

3) I'm not sure why you're insisting on that old Salas paper. I don't disagree that the Bantu are largely homogenous. What I wrote is that there is some internal diversity among them because of the existence of mixed Bantu groups like the Tutsi. Salas doesn't include the Tutsi in his study, so it creates an illusion of complete homogeneity among his Bantu samples. Middayexpress (talk) 20:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Also, do you understand why it is misleading to state that "Bantu peoples is used as a general ethnolinguistic label for the 300–600 ethnically and linguistically related ethnic groups in Africa" and then link the phrase "ethnically and linguistically related ethnic groups in Africa" to the demographics of Africa page? Middayexpress (talk) 20:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

1) Bantu Population Figures- There is no reference as there has been no book about Bantu Africa spefically, but estimates can be made from

BANTU POPULATION FIGURES Population of SADC <http://www.sadc.int/about-sadc/overview/sadc-facts-figures/</reF> - 277 million Population of EAC ^[11] - over 140 million ECCAS ^[12] -138.6 million SADC 277 million + EAC 150 million + ECCAS 131 million, removing Chad and Central African Republic(in ECCAS) Mauritius and Seychelles (in SADC), overlap of Bantu states (between ECCAS, SADC and EAC) and taking into account non-Bantu populations in South Africa, Namibia, Kenya, Uganda and elsewhere, adds up to over 400 million people.

SADC= Angola Botswana,Democratic Republic of the Congo – since 8 September 1997,Lesotho,Malawi, Mauritius – since 28 August 1995 Mozambique,Namibia – since 31 March 1990 (since independence),Seychelles – also previously been a member of SADC from 8 September 1997 until 1 July 2004 then joined again in 2008.,South Africa – since 30 August 1994,Swaziland,Tanzania,Zambia,Zimbabwe EAC=Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi ECCAS=Angola, Burundi, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Congo, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon and Sao Tomé and Principe — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

2) Tutsi instability The point is that Tutsis have retained their non-Bantu ethnic and cultural identity-Nilo-Saharan or Afro-Asiatic, they were probably a mixed population (perhaps like the maasai) and I can concede that but the DNA evidence is clear that they are a mixture of these populations. They were also clearly pastoralists which reinforces this link. The YDNA seems to note the Nilo-Saharan element and the MTDNA the Afro-Asiatic element, and the autosomal both. But this is my opinion and original research of course but my REFERENCES to the DNA STUDIES and the BOOKS about their oral history and conflict is what I am arguing here and you are yet to refute. I have cited at least 3 or 4 are clear that this Tutsi-hima-anyakole identity as opposed to the non-Afro-asiatic or Nilo-Saharan identity of the neighboring bantu groups is the main source of instability in the great lakes region. Obviously the Tutsi have significant Bantu admixture there is no doubt about that and it explains their speaking of a bantu language. But their Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan historical identity has been a source of instability in the face of the bantu migration. Other groups in that region also have significant Afro-Asiatic or Nilo-Saharan admixture but it has not been a source of instability and this history has not been retained. Please read the papers or find something contradicting this claims

3) These DNA papers state they are relatively homogenous. The bantu peoples are extremely closely related even with their significant absorption of Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic and Khoisan groups. They have a genetic signature that is unique to them across this population which has been extremely helpful in marking the Bantu migration. It is not misleading at all. The rest of the article makes clear that they encountered other groups during their migration which they incorporated but they are still relatively homogenous. The Salas paper is not old, and all subsequent studies have reinforced his conclusions so I am unclear how that is relevant. The Tishkoff paper included the Tutsi and reinforced that. I am unclear what you are arguing here. Other Bantu groups also have significant Afro-Asiatic admixture as cited in Salas but that does not change the relative homogeneity.

I hope you understand what a migration entails from a common source population... What I am saying seems self-evident but please let me know if I am missing something here that you are arguing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:31, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Let me say I have not read all the sources. And I come with a POV which is pretty old. I have always heard Tutsi people claim to be Afro-Asiatic. Always. Obviously that does not make it so. So what does the DNA say? I am getting conflicting reports, maybe I should read the Tutsi people article to see what the DNA says. Obviously there would be admixture, but what does all of this mean to this article. are we discussing Linguistics or some vague notion of RACE. Linguistics are obviously a cleaner topic? PLEASE try and format the talk page better cuz it is impossible to read--Inayity (talk) 20:37, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems clear: Modern-day genetic studies of the Y-chromosome suggest that the Tutsi are largely of Bantu extraction (80% E1b1a, 15% B, 4% E3). Paternal genetic influences associated with the Horn of Africa and North Africa are few (1% E1b1b), and are ascribed to much earlier inhabitants who were assimilated. The Tutsi, in general, demonstrate a close genetic kinship with neighboring Bantu populations, particularly the Hutu--Inayity (talk) 20:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no a priori objections to the Tutsi having Afro-Asiatic ancestry either. If they do and that is in fact their origin, then it simply means they are another Iraqw-like relic group in the Great Lakes region. The problem in this instance is that the cited links don't actually indicate this. They indeed seem to state that the Tutsi are either a) of Bantu origin with significant Cushitic admixture, or of Nilotic origin with significant Afro-Asiatic ancestry. The blog seems to indicate the latter. Middayexpress (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Though there are certainly many Bantus, I don't think the total quite adds up to 400 million. Per Derek Nurse, that figure actually seems to be closer to the number of Niger-Congo speakers as a whole ca 2000. There were only around 240 million Bantu speakers at the time. It's doubtful that they would have more than doubled in size in a little over ten years . Middayexpress (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

So what is the new users issue? b/c I am not 100% clear on what he is saying. I know the 400 million needs a ref to say so.--Inayity (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The main thrust of his argument seems to be that the Tutsi-Hima aren't of Bantu origin, but rather of Afro-Asiatic origin (which is possible). He also seems to hold that they are still largely of Afro-Asiatic ancestry, though the links he cites don't seem to support this. I'm not sure he fully understands them either because he writes below with regard to the E1b1b Y-DNA haplogroup that "the YNDA has no elblb the MTDNA does." Middayexpress (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The YNDA has no elblb the MTDNA does. Please read the rest of the talk page before reverting. REferences have been given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

MTDNA---- Michael C. Campbell­, Sarah A. Tishkoff, African Genetic Diversity: Implications for Human Demographic History, Modern Human Origins, and Complex Disease Mapping, Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics Vol. 9 (Volume publication date September 2008)(doi:10.1146/annurev.genom.9.081307.164258) this paper also notes the relative homogeneity of bantu groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

YDNA-http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

MTDNA is mother-child.YNDA is father-son. There is no elb1b for YDNA. There IS on MTDNA. Please look at references do not make any changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No offense, but I don't think you fully understand what you're writing and linking to. The E1b1b wiki page is called "Haplogroup E-M215 (Y-DNA)" for a reason. Middayexpress (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay let us make this clear. Tutsi have little E1b1b1. That is YDNA.That is father to son. They do have Afro-Asiatic linkages on their Mtdna side. That is not E1b1b1 obviously (which is only YDNA) but is a signature of Afro-asiatic influences from mothers to their children. Please look at papers. Thank you. I think you are unable to read carefully because I do not see you linking anything to refute my references.

The Tishkoff reference is a mixed Tutsi/hutu sample shows that Tutsi mtDNA (maternal) is 17.7% Afro-Asiatic and 3.8% Nilo-Saharan. This was a mixed Tutsi/Hutu sample but is still highly relevant. See Table 81. That is: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf A pure Tutsi population may be much higher but in any case.

The Discovermagazine blog research (blogs may not be considered valid, but this is one which does original scientific research) which looked at ydna http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/ shows that the Tutsi do differ from the hutu, in being much more closely related to the Maasai, who are a mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan population.

The Tutsi Wikipedia page (which we do not cite as a reference) and is itself badly outdated and horribly written states: "owever, in light of recent genetic studies, Hiernaux's theory on the origin of Tutsis in East Africa appears doubtful.[6][7] It has also been demonstrated that the Tutsis harbor little to no Northeastern African genetic influence.[4] On the other hand, there is currently no mtDNA data available for the Tutsi, which might have helped shed light on their background."

The Tishkoff paper is the mtDNA data we need, see above. Please make sure to differentiate between YDNA and mtDNA during this discussion as it is highly relevant in light of the Tishkoff paper. Thank you.

I am willing to concede to changing the article reference to the Tutsi/Hima/Anayakole to "a mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan pastoralist population" if necessary. Studies as to lactose intolerance also solidify the link. Tollsnanak900 (talk) 21:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be a Table 81 in that link. Perhaps you mean Table S1? Also, the 17.7% figure you mention seems to be an allusion to how much of the Tutsi's total ancestry can be assigned to the Afro-Asiatic genetic cluster. On which actual page of each paper do you believe they mention the Tutsi's specific mtDNA? Middayexpress (talk) 21:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Does it matter? There is little Afro-Asiatic on their ydna so the ceiling is probably yes 17.7%. What exactly is the point of the question. Tishkoff is a mixed Hutu/Tutsi sample as well so the exact extent of Afro-Asiatic genetic affiliations of the Tutsi specifically are unknown. They are clearly an originally mixed Nilo-Saharan/Afro-Asiatic population however, and their lactose intolerance and solidifies their link. I am willing to concede to stating "a mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan pastoralist" population. Are you okay with that or do you just like arguing on this talk page? Tollsnanak900 (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC) Yes table S1. So the discovermagazine research states that the Tutsi are closer to the Maasai than the Hutu are. The Maasai are a Nilo-Saharan/Afro-Asiatic population. Tishkoff demonstrates the Tutsi have at least 17.7% Afro-Asiatic ancestry. The other references I have cited have demonstrated the instability caused by this identity. What points are you arguing further against the article as it is? Tollsnanak900 (talk) 21:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC) Have we reached consensus on stating "a mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan pastoralist" group? Then we can tackle the other two points that are spun out.

Of course it matters. Other than the blog, none of the links claim that the Tutsi were originally a mixed Nilo-Saharan+Afro-Asiatic group. The Tishkoff link actually states that the Tutsi are a Bantu group from Rwanda who along with the Hutu over the centuries assimilated some Cushitic peoples. She doesn't say that the Tutsi-Hima themselves were Cushitic peoples. Here it is again: "Nilo-Saharan and Cushitic speakers from the Sudan, Kenya and Tanzania, as well as some of the Bantu speakers from Kenya, Tanzania and Rwanda (Hutu/Tutsi) constitute another cluster (purple), reflecting linguistic evidence for gene flow amongst these populations over the past ~5,000 years (27, 28)." And here is what the authors write about the Afro-Asiatic groups that did not mix greatly with Bantu or Nilotic populations: "Another geographically contiguous cluster extends across Northern Africa (blue) into Mali (the Dogon), Ethiopia and northern Kenya. With the exception of the Dogon, these populations speak an Afroasiatic language." In short, they constitute an altogether separate cluster. You therefore can't claim in the text that "remaining ethno-cultural diversity following the Bantu migration is also arguably the trigger for much of the violence in the Great Lakes region, with pastoralist and historically Afro-Asiatic communities such as the Tutsi, Banyankole,and Hima (who only later adopted Bantu languages) in historical conflict over the struggle for political representation and land with the later Bantu migrants in the region". Middayexpress (talk) 22:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Are you being disingenuous? Did you look at the other references regarding the conflict in the Great Lakes? Tutsis are pastoralists, Hutus were agriculturalists. Nilo-Saharan/Afro-Asiatic groups are pastoralists, the Bantu migration was largely Agriculturalist. We even have a link here regarding the Pastoralism of the Herero a mixed Afro-Asiatic/Bantu group in South Africa. The DNA supports an Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan mixed population of the Tutsi. The oral history and conflicts in the region, well-referenced by over 4 references note the migration of the Tutsi. WHAT ARE YOU ARGUING? It is very unclear. Tollsnanak900 (talk) 22:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Please read the discover research if it is unclear to you how a population can absorb significant Bantu mixture and still retain their historical identity with a non-Bantu (Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan mixed group). How they can SPEAK a Bantu language and be predominately Bantu but still retain a non-BANTU CULTURAL and GENETIC identity. Are you not understanding what I am saying or do I have to make it clear? Are you disputing the other references regarding the instability in the Great Lakes region due to the pastoralist Tutsi/Hima/Anyakole presence???? Tollsnanak900 (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

ALL THE REFERENCES SUPPORT THAT SECTION. You have given ZERO references disputing them. The DNA helps indicate the genetic affiliation that may have been lost. The history and conflicts in the references support the DNA. I can also give more links regarding the PASTORALIST culture of the Tutsi versus the Hutu, the PASTORALIST history of the Nilo-Saharans and Afro-Asiatics in the region, the AGRICULTURALIST culture of the Bantu migrants and add dozens of more references if you would like. But why should I? You have presented ZERO references disputing this. This is looking like a waste of time to me. Tollsnanak900 (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC) I have provided NUMEROUS references and you have provided NONE.

Please see below. Middayexpress (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"Remaining ethno-cultural diversity following the Bantu migration is also arguably the trigger for much of the violence in the Great Lakes region, with pastoralist and historically Afro-Asiatic communities such as the Tutsi, Banyankole,and Hima (who only later adopted Bantu languages) in historical conflict over the struggle for political representation and land with the later Bantu migrants in the region. [30] [31] [32] [33]"

The above section is in dispute, and much back and forth has occurred in the talk page above. Here are the different parts of the section, please reference the previous discussion on "Tutsi Genetic Affiliations"

Let us discuss each in turn so we are clear what the dispute is and what references for each of our points is needed. Perhaps the issue is that the references are all at the end and not between each section. I am willing to parse out each section with references. Please let us work together to resolve this issue, please not each section in turn so we can be precise, thank you. Tollsnanak900 (talk) 23:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• (1)"Remaining ethno-cultural diversity following the Bantu migration"

Is there debate as to whether there is remaining diversity in the Great Lakes region following the Bantu migration? Tollsnanak900 (talk)

• (2)"is also arguably the trigger for much of the violence in the Great Lakes region,"

Is there debate that there is violence in the Great Lakes region between the groups in question (Tutsi-Hima-Anyakole v. Bantu)?Tollsnanak900 (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• (3)"with pastoralist and historically Afro-Asiatic communities such as the Tutsi, Banyankole,and Hima (who only later adopted Bantu languages)"

Is there a debate that the Tutsi-Banyankole-Hima are Pastoralist, historically Afro-Asiatic and later adopted Bantu languages (I AM WILLING TO CONCEDE TO CHANGING IT TO 'HISTORICALLY AFRO-ASIATIC/NILO-SAHARAN' due to the fact that the evidence shows a mixed population between Nilo-Saharan/Afro-Asiatic and there is no direct evidence as to what language they spoke before turning to Bantu languages Tollsnanak900 (talk) 23:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• (4) "in historical conflict over the struggle for political representation and land with the later Bantu migrants in the region."

Is there a debate as to the historical conflict for political representation and land between the Tutsi-Hima-Anyakole and Bantu migrants (Hutu, Buganda and others) in the region? Tollsnanak900 (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I've fixed the headers per WP:TALKNEW. They are supposed to be neutral. Also, per that policy, posts should be short and concise and in one place so that others may respond. I've already explained several times now above with quotes and links why the wiki statement on the Tutsi-Hima is not supported. The most that can be said based on them is something along the lines of "although Bantu speakers, the Tutsi-Hima hold that they originally spoke an Afro-Asiatic language, which they later abandoned after intermarrying with Bantu groups[...] genetic studies confirming or refuting this tradition are inconclusive". It can't be asserted that the Tutsi-Hima are themselves Afro-Asiatic peoples, only later adopted a Bantu language, etc. Middayexpress (talk) 23:37, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay so to be clear you would rather make general arguments for specific points LOL. Whatever. Anyways so your issue is specifically with the identity of the Tutsi, that is point 3) only to be clear? You do not have an issue with parts 1), 2) or 4) of the sentence, just to clarify so we can narrow the discussion:

• (3)"with pastoralist and historically Afro-Asiatic communities such as the Tutsi, Banyankole,and Hima (who only later adopted Bantu languages)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

If so I am willing to concede to what you have stated, except that the Tutsi-Hima-Anyakole do NOT hold that they originally spoke the language but rather that they are from Afro-Asiatic or Nilo-Saharan ethnic origins. I do not wish to quibble on the point if we are reaching consensus, so am willing to replace *(3)"with pastoralist and historically Afro-Asiatic communities such as the Tutsi, Banyankole,and Hima (who only later adopted Bantu languages)" with something we can concede to, and keep the references as to the DNA. perhaps we can state

"with pastoralist (most probably Nilo-Saharan) non-Bantu communities such as the Tutsi, Banyankole, and Hima (who only later adopted Bantu languages)" and then in the footnote indicate what you have stated about the genetic affiliations being unclear. Is that okay? Can we reach consensus on this? Tollsnanak900 (talk) 00:17, 8 December 2013 (UTC) I mean I 8think* we can both agree on the historically non-Bantu origins of the Tutsi based on the DNA references and historical references I have provided I think where you and I differ on is whether they are originally Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan, a mixed population between the two or otherwise. Am I stating our disagreement correctly? I am more than willing to concede that the evidence points to the Tutsi being probably Nilo-Saharan in origin with a footnote towards their Afro-Asiatic genetic affiliations as well. Is that something you would be comfortable with? What I am NOT willing to concede is that the Tutsi are of originally Bantu origin and identical to the Hutu (although they are obviously today predominately Bantu in DNA and they speak a Bantu language in common with the Hutu). Tollsnanak900 (talk) 00:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC) Although there has been much sensitivity to the issue due to the conflicts in the Great Lakes especially after the Rwandan Genocide, all the references I have provided and the DNA evidence indicate a differing genesis of the Tutsi and Hutu, although the exact ethnic makeup of the original Tutsi-Hima-Anyakole peoples as you stated is inconclusive. There has been much misinformation on this issue after the genocide, the Tutsi wiki page is a case in point but if we can agree on the non-Bantu element to the Tutsi-Hima-Anyakole and retained cultural non-Bantu elements here that can end this discussion now. The footnote can indicate the inconclusive affiliations with a very short note towards the limited Afro-Asiatic affiliations found by Tishkoff. Tollsnanak900 (talk) 00:24, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

So to be clear what I am proposing is changing "Afro-Asiatic" to "probably Nilo-Saharan" leaving all the references intact and the rest of the section intact and then creating a footnote along the lines of "Although the precise ethnic origins of the Tutsi, Hima and Anyakole are unclear and they currently speak Bantu languages, they have been differentiated from surrounding Bantu communities through DNA evidence demonstrating a substantial Nilo-Saharan component (and relatively limited Afro-Asiatic gene flow) that clusters them most closely with other Nilo-Saharan-speaking pastoralists in Southeast Africa such as the Maasai. This, in addition to the communities' oral histories indicating origins to the north, and the presence of significant non-Bantu ethno-cultural elements such as cattle-centered socio-cultural practices, increased lactose intolerance and feudal economic practices support the DNA evidence indicating the non-Bantu cultural genesis of the Tutsi, Hima and Anyakole in the Great Lakes region. As a result, although the Tutsi, Hima and Anyakole all share significant genetic and linguistic relationships to their surrounding Bantu communities, this is probably due to substantial gene flow from the Bantu groups and subsequent abandonment of their original non-Bantu languages."

As this is what the discover DNA study specifically argues, and is supported by the other references as to the conflict in the region as well. The Afro-Asiatic issue is tangential to this, the main point is the non-Bantu/agriculturalist pastoralist element othe Tutsi-Hima-Anyakole and its contribution to much of the conflict in the Great Lakes region. Would the replaced words and the footnote I proposed above be comfortable to you? Tollsnanak900 (talk) 00:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Is that okay? Tollsnanak900 (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello this is Tollsnanak900, I had to change my username as I lost my previous password. The Luis reference in the article further supports the differentiation between the Tutsi and Hutu in terms of their Nilo-Saharan ancestry:

Luis, J. R.; et al. (2004). "The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations". American Journal of Human Genetics 74 (3): 532–544. doi:10.1086/382286. PMC 1182266. PMID 14973781. (Errata) Also available here: http://volgagermanbrit.us/documents/AJHG_2004_v74_p000_0130.pdf Luis found: Tutsi 14.9%B, Hutu 4.3%B, Hutu 94.2%E, Tutsi 85.1% E This supports the discoverblog article which shows the Tutsi clustering much closer to the Masaai (a mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan population that speaks aNilo-Saharan language) we can just point to this DNA study instead which had similar results for the yDNA. Again, as the mtDNA evidence we have was a mixed Hutu/Tutsi sample, I am willing to concede that the greater Afro-Asiatic affiliation of the Tutsi has not yet been proven as although the mtDNA shows 18% Afro-Asiatic mixture in the mixed Hutu/Tutsi sample, it is not clear whether Tutsi have more of it than the Hutu. The Tutsi do however have significantly more Nilo-Saharan as the Luis study shows so I am willing to concede to what I have already set above in further light of the Luis study (which had already been referenced in the article in the first place!). I have been searching for any genetic studies of the Tutsi alone for their mtDNA or autosomal but I could not find any. If you do, please let me know. Until then I would like to reach consensus on my earlier proposal towards replacing "Afro-Asiatic" with "probably Nilo-Saharan" and then adding a footnote clarifying the genetic studies and leaving the rest of the section and footnotes intact. Thank you. Andajara120000 (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC) (formerly Tollsnanak900 as I lost my password- see my talk page where I have noted I am the same person).

Here is another good reference as to the issue that can be incorporated into the article once consensus is met: Filip Reyntjens, "War in the Great Lakes Region," in Africa in World Politics: Engaging in a Changing Global Order. Boulder, Co: Westview Press, 2013, pp. 255-284. Andajara120000 (talk) 01:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is possible that they would have doubled in 10 years. STOP DOING ORIGINAL RESEARCH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There are three references for the 400 million figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The way you are commenting on this talk page is not helping anyone listen to you. You are all over the place. Stop worrying about reverts and just calm down and make sense in a controlled fashion. You are doing your own maths, that is OR. Who are you accusing of doing OR? Does any of those ref say The Bantu population is 400 million? Is there a source that sums it up? Then use that one. The Unesco source does not say this. --Inayity (talk) 20:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed User:Inayity. It's hard to even respond without getting that "edit conflict" wiki message because constant simultaneous posting here. The discussion needs to slow down and focus on specifics. Middayexpress (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have edited this out into the three major points: bantu population totals, Tutsi genetic affiliations and bantu homogeneity. this should make it easier to edit within each section. If there are still unresolved questions let me know but these three seem key. Earlier discussions have been retained outside the spin-offs. Tollsnanak900 (talk)

There is no "Bantu Alliance" but there are three supra-regional groups: the SADC and EAC and ECCAS that make up the Bantu countries per the linguistic map. I can go and provide references for all 19 predominately bantu countries and the 4 islands as well. Let me know what you think is best. But the three organizations, removing overlap and accounting for non-Bantu groups is sufficient. If we have a page on Bantu peoples there should be an estimation as to their population. If there is an easier way let me know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I am attempting to organize it PER YOUR REQUEST but it is hard to do so with three people editing at once. UNESCO is in regards to ECCAS, I have also given links to an article about the EAC and a link to the population figures for SADC. I have explained it very clearly to you here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There I have organized it well for you guys. I am happy to talk these issues out, thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Is this still in question or is it resolved per the earlier discussion regarding the first line on the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Is this still in question or is it resolved per the earlier discussion regarding the first line on the article? Bantu peoples is used as a general label for the 300–600 ethnically and linguistically related ethnic groups in Africa [4] [5] who speak Bantu languages.[6]

I think the references given in the earlier discussion on this page resolve this issue pretty clearly (especially Salas) but please let me know if otherwise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC385086/

Am J Hum Genet. 2002 November; 71(5): 1082–1111.

Published online 2002 October 22.

PMC 385086

The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape

Antonio Salas,1,2,3 Martin Richards,2 Tomás De la Fe,1 María-Victoria Lareu,1 Beatriz Sobrino,1 Paula Sánchez-Diz,1 Vincent Macaulay,3 and Ángel Carracedo1

Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►

"

Several mtDNA markers have been proposed as signals of Bantu dispersals, although often in the absence of any southern Bantu data. Bandelt et al. (1995) and Chen et al. (1995) suggested haplogroup L1a, part of which (defined by a 9-bp intergenic deletion) was confirmed as an important eastern Bantu marker by Soodyall et al. (1996). Watson et al. (1997) similarly proposed a subset of haplogroup L3b. Subsequently, Alves-Silva et al. (2000) and Bandelt et al. (2001) have proposed (on the basis of analyses of Brazilian mtDNA data) that fragments of haplogroups L2, L3e, and L1e may also be important Bantu mtDNA markers. Bandelt and Forster (1997) highlighted the Khoisan mtDNA pool, which primarily includes members of the ancient haplogroups L1d and L1k, suggesting that extant San groups represent a small and recent splinter from a widespread and ancient Khoisan population (see also Soodyall and Jenkins 1992; Soodyall 1993). (A similar relationship between the Mandenka and the wider West African mtDNA pool was pointed out by Graven et al. 1995.) Pereira et al. (2001) focused specifically on southeastern African Bantu-speaking populations. They found reduced diversity, in comparison with East and West Africans, and confirmed the roles of L1a (both with and without the 9-bp intergenic deletion), L3b, and L3e in the Bantu dispersals. They also highlighted the important role of L2a and estimated a Khoisan assimilation rate in southeast Bantu speakers of ~5% (L1d). Using L2a, they estimated a founder time of 4,600–16,500 years ago." "

One particular widespread derived subclade, E3a, has been implicated in the Bantu expansion; it has rather little diversity and forms the majority of lineages in Central and southern African Bantu-speaking samples (Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001). This subclade occurs at a frequency of ~63% in the southern African Bantu speakers of Underhill et al. (2000), with one predominant haplotype and its one-step derivative (Underhill et al. 2001). These two haplotypes (hts 24 and 22 in the work of Underhill et al. [2001] and Cruciani et al. [2002]) occur at ~84% in south Cameroon (Cruciani et al. 2002). Both haplotypes are widespread in West and Central Africa, but this evidence is clearly consistent with a Cameroon origin for southern African Bantu speakers. A minor E3a type also present in southern African Bantu speakers (ht 27) occurs at ~9% in Cameroon and is almost absent in other African groups sampled, so the case for a south Cameroon origin is even stronger in this case." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 21:08, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

As these are for southeastern Bantu groups which have a great degree of admixture and are still homogeneous as compared to the other Bantu groups I think it is pretty clear but please let me know if I am missing something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tollsnanak900 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Roland Oliver, et al. "Africa South of the Equator," in Africa Since 1800. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 2005, pp. 18-34. discussing general unity of bantu-speaking areas in history and some additional kingdoms:

p. 21 Kongo Kingdom in Angola p. 23 Lunda and Mwata Kazembe in DRC p. 24-25 Eastern- Buganda, Karagwe, Rwanda, Burundi Kabaka Mutesa of Buganda p. 25- Great Zimbabwe, Mwene Mutapa, Rozvi (Naletale and Dhlo-Dhlo) Andajara120000 (talk) 01:44, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Johnjohnjames/Archive. Note that although Andajara120000 is clear about being Tollsnanak900 the issue is that both accounts are socks of User:Johnjohnjames, just two of many socks who have been active on this article and other articles relating to East Africa. I have noted the misuse of references dealing with genetics, ranging from unreliable sources to using sources to make an argument violating WP:NOR and WP:SYN - sources must specifically discuss the subject of the article (see WP:VRS), but this editor puts together sources to make an argument the way you would do in an essay. I've struck through some of their edits, feel free to strike through or remove the rest. I've wasted too much time in the last 2 weeks on this idiot. Dougweller (talk) 09:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

He was prolific I could not keep up. and sometimes people can out blast you because they seem to have so many ref. But a few moves did raise the alarm bells. But we still need to keep any good edits where applicable. I have just 1/2 reviewed some of the content and see source abuse. Sometimes the source says NOTHING he claims it is saying. But some of the content I think can be cleaned and re-added --Inayity (talk) 04:03, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Some cleaning up was already done over the last few days; I think that's a good starting point. Middayexpress (talk) 15:43, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

As tradition in most Wikipedia articles about ethnic groups, I added an image array of notable Bantu individuals at the top of the infobox. This, I think, is better than the previous image of a map. Additional images of notable Bantus, from various backgrounds, would be greatly appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.50.34.213 (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Bantu is not an ethnic group. It is a category of languages. We could talk of Bantu-speaking ethnic groups, and maybe stretch the point and call it a category of ethnic groups. But none of the individuals pictured is a Bantu person. Chris Lowe (talk) 23:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Category:Bantu people has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. HelenOnline 10:46, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 10:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

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I have also checked the sources 10 and 17 in the article and they are no longer available so they need to be updated. Sorry I didn't put the references here. Thanks! Jody5793 (talk) 19:15, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Why does the Somalia row in the chart say 0.5 million total population and 2.8 million Bantu population in 2015? The "Bantu percentage" of 13% also implies a population of about 20 million, not 0.5 million.

I'm going to replace it with more accurate info.

I tried looking around for data on the percentage of Somalians that are Bantu but the only info I could get is that the population of non-Somalis, including Bantus, is less than 15%.

Spiderduckpig (talk) 09:10, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

The Eastern Bantu are the New Kingdom Ancient Egyptians. The Western Bantu are Yoruba who adopted the Bantu languages after moving south from West Africa.

You cannot find modern Yoruba/Western Bantu, Gambian/Jolla, or Botswanan/Eastern Bantu dna in paleolithic, mesolithic, neolithic, copper age or even iron age West Africa, but you can find it in Arabia and Ancient Egypt.

When the people of the north - Caucasus mountains, Pontic Steppes of Russia, Anatolia - moved south in the Bronze Age, Iron age and later, they displaced people ahead of them, in a southwardly direction. This is how the ancient Middle Eastern Hamites of Genesis 10 became modern 'Sub-Saharan Africans'.

It isn't that Ancient Egypt was African, it is that Africa became Ancient Egyptian and Hamitic. That is why 3,000 years ago people with Amarna Dynasty dna were showing up in Uganda, the origin of the Nile, to form the Urewe Culture, which became the basis for the '2nd Bantu Expansion'.

The dna is clear, and it is in. The Ancient Egyptians of the New Kingdom era moved south, and became the Eastern Bantu, wich is why they are consistently most like people today in the African Great Lakes Region and Southern Africa.

Also, you can tell from their dna that the Eastern Bantu (Ancient Egyptians) and Yoruba/Western Bantu didn't run into anyone other than the paleolithic hunter gatherers - Bushmen and Pygmies. This strongly implies that there was no one else living in Sub-Saharan Africa, except for the paleolithic hunter gatherers. (See Figure 4 D in Mozambican genetic variation provides new insights into the Bantu expansion.)

Percentage, SSA = Sub-Saharan African, EA = Eurasian, A = Asian

Source: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion, SOY Keita, Anselin

KV35EL (King's Valley, Tomb 35, Elder Lady) is thought to be Queen Tiye. She is 71.9% Sub-Saharan African, and 21.8% Eurasian. And we know what she looks like from her bust.

Source: DNA Tribes Digest January 1, 2012, Table 1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:94A4:F261:6EF6:DD8D (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

In the section "Hypotheses of early Bantu expansion" there's this sentence:

Bantu speakers of South Africa (Xhosa, Venda) showed substantial levels of the SAK and Western African Bantu AACs and low levels of the East African Bantu AAC (the latter is also present in Bantu speakers from the Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda).

so, what's an AAC? some sort of marker, but is it genetic or linguistic? The disambiguation page suggests these, that are probably wrong:

• Augmentative and alternative communication, a class of communications methods for people with speech impairments
• AAC, a codon for the amino acid asparagine
• Adenine nucleotide translocator (ANT), also known as the ADP/ATP carrier protein (AAC)

An explanation of what it's all about and how it works would be appreciated, given that Wikipedia isn't even familiar with the acronym. OsamaBinLogin (talk) 04:26, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

it says bantu are only 15% but on the demographic page of equatorial guinea, it explains the fang and bubi are both bantu 68.114.133.85 (talk) 02:20, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Zulu Dance-S. Africa.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:06, 12 December 2025 (UTC)